View Full Version : Mike New ETP Platter
RobbieGong
05-12-2015, 22:30
I'm hoping Mike will update us regarding the ETP Platter. I'd firstly like to say again, that i have found the ETP to be an excellent acquisition in my pursuit of audio Nirvana with my SL1210. I was one of the first to purchase and fully support it, and remember this was at a time when the Funk was all the 'one to have' here. It was for me and I say this again, the icing on the cake in terms of achieving a certain natural / organicness to my Techies presentation that wasnt there before. It basically trounces the stock platter in my experience by a good country mile and I made that clearly known (and still do)
Now, all that said, when it arrived I noticed that it span with a slight dip( I wont use the word wobble) on rotation which it still does. Whilst this dip on rotation is slight it is there and if you look it can be seen. Thankfully because it is very slight i've still been able to reap it's great sonic benefits. The sincere and genuine reason why I didnt mention this at the time was because it is slight and simply because I had heard not one mention of anything like this from anyone else, so just took it that this was normal, not an issues as such. It is only now that this has been brought to the attention of the forum that I've realised that mine is not an isolated occurrence. Whilst I rate the ETP highly and wouldnt change it ( well only for one that spins perfectly level :) ) I feel respectfully to us your biggest fans and going forward that it would be the right thing to openly communicate / feedback to us here on the forum regarding the matter. I guess the real questions are answers to things we dont know ie: what is the settling process for the plastic used ? and with this in mind is a final quality check carried out, to that regard on each ETP before before dispatch ?? The clip here of the platter being spun on one of your bearings seems the ideal and easiest check as any deviation clearly shows up.
Finally, please note that there is absolutely no case of axe to grind on my part or that i'm aware of from anyone else (only you'll know that) and that's the bottom line gospel truth. I've bigged you and your products up from day one as you probably know ( go through posts and see ) and I'm not the only - AOS has been keen and faithful. However, the truth is a platter that spins perfectly level is vital, let alone in an audiophile environment such as this, regardless of the price of the jewelry. It would be decent, good and right to get back to us on this Mike.
Excellent post, Rob, and I share many of your sentiments. I'm sure that Mike will be along to comment soon :)
I also have much to add on this subject (and also on the MN bearing), after reading some, quite frankly, ill-informed nonsense elsewhere from someone who should know better than to comment about things he has next to no practical experience of! :doh:
Anyway, we'll save that until tomorrow. Right now, I'm too busy enjoying listening to music. Currently playing this on the RPi, via MoODe: http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-hummel-trumpet-concertos-mw0001874782
Sounds stunning! :cool:
Marco.
Oh, just one thing, could I have a 'show of hands' for those who are using an ETP platter, minus any defects or 'wobbling', and it's been that way since they've got it?
Count me in, as I wouldn't have paid for mine otherwise!!
I can also say with certainty, even though he's now on TAS, that Martin Taylor is in the same position (because he simply wouldn't have accepted his either if it wasn't perfect), as we tested an ETP against a Funk MKI platter, at his place, along with one of Mike's aluminium composite platters, and there was no 'wobble' from any of them.
So who else here is a throughly delighted 'non-dipping/wobbling ETP platter owner? :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
06-12-2015, 10:10
Whilst I dont own the ETP platter I have tried one for three weeks when considering upgrading my old Cu/Al platter which incidently is perfectly flat. Sonically the platter was only marginally less superior than the Cu/Al platter but all in all was an extremely good piece of kit. I can say that I must have had one of the first batch and can confirm that it worked perfectly well on my TT WITHOUT a wobble. So, I wonder if early versions are ok and later versions are wonky??
Given what's happening, Andy, that *appears* to be a reasonable assumption. We await Mike's response to this. So where are the rest of the happy ETP platter users here - have you all gone shy.....? ;)
Btw, just one quick point I'd like to make about the notion that ETPs haven't been machined flat... Well, again that is *definitely* not the case with mine, as the Nagaoka glass T/T mat I use (which is perfectly flat and very rigid) would have course show up any unevenness, at the edge where the platter underneath was defective.
Well, I can report the the glass mat sits perfectly flatly on top of the platter, so that accusation can be discounted, unless as Andy moots, later ETPs have suffered from such defects.
My suspicion is that it the issue is more to do with sample variances in the spindle taper of the partnering MN bearing, the 'worst' of which (considering that we're talking about a margin that is minute), don't allow ETP platters to 'seat' themselves properly flush onto the bearing, thus causing a dip/wobble when the platter is spinning.
*If* that is the case, then the only way to 100% test for that would be to insist that bearings and platters, sent to customers, are matched up and tested together before being shipped. Or if someone already has an MN bearing, and wants an ETP platter, that they are asked to send their bearing to Mike, in order to match it up with the specific platter that they'll be sent.
Sometimes minuscule differences in machining tolerances can occur (especially with bespoke items being produced in small quantities, and so the potential for error is higher than that occurring with mass-produced items in large quantities, where such errors are more easily ironed out). Therefore, that minuscule margin of error in the taper of bearing spindles, could certainly be enough to cause the potential problem I've outlined.
If I'm right, the issue can certainly be easily solved! :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
06-12-2015, 10:54
Dont know Andy, but I was probably the second person after John (PrestonChipfryer) so one of the earliest. I really dont think this is a simple case of early or recent, hence we wait to hear back from Mike
kininigin
06-12-2015, 11:17
I'm very interested in this thread,as after getting a MNB again i was planning on getting an ETP platter in the new year! I obviously have some slight reservations now!
Last night AoS desperately asked for a show of hands for people with a Mike New ETP Platter that didn't wobble, not one person has responded. This too will get deleted so here it is, you may need to click on it to read it ?
Yo, shyster-boy, a few folks who own perfect ETPs (such as John, Prestonchipfryer) no longer post here, or may be otherwise engaged, so stop soaking your incontinence pants. My post will be going nowhere.
If you want further verification as to the machining integrity of ETPs, I believe you're a member of The Audio Standard forum, so go and ask Martin T what his views are on the matter, and how 'flat' his platter is, rather than deliberately trying to ruin someone's good reputation to further your ridiculous agenda against Mike.
Marco.
Mike_New
06-12-2015, 12:05
Hi folks,
Over the period of time exceeding 5 years now, people have been happy with the sonic results my platters have produced. (Both the ETP versions and the Alluminium and Copper Bonded versions).
Sadly of course since the venerable old Techie ceased production about two and a half years ago interest in upgrades have greatly diminished.
If there is/was a problem with the platter supplied to Andrew then unfortunately I was never given the opportunity to discuss things with him. Indeed I had no idea that he had any issues until his post on this forum. All I know is that he posted many requests for help (prematurely) in fitting the Base Plate and removing the pulse generator (not possible) from the platter. In spite of the fact that fully adequate instructions are always supplied with my Upgrades at the time they are shipped.
The platter was running OK on my test system before posting and it maybe that rough handling during shipping have caused the problem.
However I understand that Cawley has quickly grabbed the opportunity of buying it, (not for his own use of course ) but to bad mouth me along with the eager support of his accumulated “experts”. So I will never have the opportunity to investigate the problem. Unless of course he would like to return it to me after he has made ‘full use’ of it.
I frankly cannot be bothered to respond to their ramblings.
Sadly you will find in this world that there are always disappointed people who were never clever enough to be first, but are always keen to cut down the tall poppies that are!!!
There are very many Platters and of course about 300 of my Bearings, which have found placement in SL1200s across the world to the appreciation of the happy and satisfied owners. So on balance I must have been doing something right over the last 5 years.
If nothing else this subject has served to light up the interest in SL1200s like petrol on dying embers and has resulted in enquiries for my upgrades in the past 24 hours.
Dont know Andy, but I was probably the second person after John (PrestonChipfryer) so one of the earliest. I really dont think this is a simple case of early or recent, hence we wait to hear back from Mike
Hi Rob,
See my post (above yours) as to a possible explanation for what is happening.
If I'm right, it's a piece of piss for Mike to fix, although you may have to send your bearing to him, to allow him to match it up with your ETP. Therefore, if Mike confirms that I could be right and accepts how to fix the issue, then there is no reason whatsoever that any potential customer, for an ETP platter, should be concerned about their purchase.
In all honestly, given what's been reported recently, I would say that what I've suggested above should now be mandatory, with any purchase of an ETP, as it would totally eliminate the chance for anything similar happening again to customers in future.
Marco.
RobbieGong
06-12-2015, 12:21
Exactly ! People are not stupid so those with there own mischievous agenda, trying to latch on like hungry leach are wasting there time. The bearing is a corker, the best in my view, the ETP is fab in my experience and my choice over all the other options that are available. Fortunately the majority of folk attached to forums and who indulge in this passion for hifi know the truth and wont be taken in by schemers. This thread is related to just some ETP platters - get over it !! as the saying goes try as you may ' you can fool some people sometimes but you cant fool all the people all of the time ' ;) Mikes products and reputation has been built on many pieces purchased resulting in big smiles and an abundance of testimonies - nothings changed. Let us get on with our thread and butt out of what doesn't concern you !
The whole thing is hilarious and astonishing. The mans hypocrisy shows no boundaries. This is the man who for years has been trying to damage Dave Cawley's reputation and with bona-fide slander. And mine and nva, but that is another matter.
Yet again wrong you silly prick, Dave is referring to facts and fair comment based on probability expounded from what we already know. Yes he has an axe to grind against you, the same as I have.
That's nice to know, sweetheart, and I love you, too! :kiss:
However, the 'axe to grind' I'm referring to is that of Dave Cawley's against Mike New, not against ME. I'm not in the least bit affected by this situation.
And anything I've done in the past to him or you is fully justified and deserved, as both of you in different ways, are a disgrace to the audio industry. Cawley's behaviour, however, is far more insidious - you're largely just an abrasive, deluded old balloon, with a mouth far bigger than your brain.
Creepy can think of me what he likes (as he knows the feeling is mutual, and for justifiable and deserved reasons, as I abhor parasites in the industry like him). So once again, that addled and senile pea-sized piece of matter, sandwiched between your ears, is unable to follow properly what's written in front of you! Are such levels of senility what I can look forward to when I get to your age? :D
Not everything on forums is about ME, as your mania and obsession with me indicates! I suggest that you go and seek some medical help, for what is quite obviously a REAL problem.
The reality is, dimwit, that Dave Cawley bought Andrew's T/T, in order to further his agenda against Mike New (not me - it's got feck all to do with me), so that he could use it (and its supposedly 'wobbly platter') to diss Mike's products, and thus try and damage his business, in order to increase sales of his rival products/modifications for the Technics. With Cawley, it's all about profit and ego!
He may also use the opportunity to try and (once again) copy Mike's bearing, and this time also the ETP platter and Paul Hynes PSU, which form part of the turntable he bought from Andrew. Only an idiot (or someone like you with a blinkered agenda and mental problems) can't see that.
Marco.
RobbieGong
06-12-2015, 12:32
Hi Rob,
See my post (above yours) as to a possible explanation for what is happening.
If I'm right, it's a piece of piss for Mike to fix, although you may have to send your bearing to him, to allow him to match it up with your ETP. Therefore, if Mike confirms that I could be right and accepts how to fix the issue, then there is no reason whatsoever that any potential customer, for an ETP platter, should be concerned about their purchase.
In all honestly, given what's been reported recently, I would say that what I've suggested above should now be mandatory, with any purchase of an ETP, as it would totally eliminate the chance for anything similar happening again to customers in future.
Marco.
I hear ya Marco. The taper aspect did cross my mind as when you think about it, it would only take the minutest of degree with regards to how it is inserted or set into the plastic for the slightest of deviation on rotation to show. Either way I could quite easily live with mine as is which I have done - my Techie has sounded the best it ever has once the ETP was in situe, that says it all really. Mikes the expert so I'll leave it to him what he does (or doesnt ) suggest. Sending back my ETP for him to look at and spin on a bearing wouldnt be hard for me to do, just a slight dent in my pocket maybe :)
Indeed, Rob, and if you did that, I'm virtually certain that the issue would be resolved - and that applies to everyone else with a 'wobbly ETP platter'! :)
Marco.
Exactly ! People are not stupid so those with there own mischievous agenda, trying to latch on like hungry leach are wasting there time. The bearing is a corker, the best in my view, the ETP is fab in my experience and my choice over all the other options that are available. Fortunately the majority of folk attached to forums and who indulge in this passion for hifi know the truth and wont be taken in by schemers.
Yup, which is *exactly* what Dave Cawley is - and always has been!!
Marco.
kininigin
06-12-2015, 12:45
Well i'm looking at this as a potential customer and sending a bearing back to Australia to test with a platter seems a big hassel in a time/cost factor! Would that mean paying import duty on a bearing twice? Or would sending back the platter and bearing just incur the one charge you would get with the platter anyway?
Does this even need to be done? There has only been 2 people i've noticed with this issue and 1 of them,Rob,is happy with his.
Oldpinkman
06-12-2015, 12:56
I know you won't follow this Marco, but can I share some good advice - the best - I was given over on TAS
The advice came from Singularity, who used to post as "Andrew" on HFS.
"Stop looking there. When I did so, I started to enjoy HiFi again. The constant negativity sucks all the joy out of you" or something to that effect. At the time I was monitoring Cagey's return to the forum, but I have been so much happier since returning to being completely oblivious to its existence.
:cool:
Hi Darren,
Personally, I doubt it needs doing, but perhaps just to be on the safe side, it might be a good idea. We need Mike to comment properly on this, but regardless, as Rob has confirmed, any minuscule 'wobble' on the ETP (for whatever reason) isn't anything like serious enough to affect its sonic performance.
Jeez, a lot of brand new records these days are 'warped' to a far, far greater degree, and played on on supposedly flat, 'non-wobbly platters' of various descriptions, apparently without any negative impact on sound quality, so think about that...!! ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
06-12-2015, 12:59
Well said Richard.
Oldpinkman
06-12-2015, 12:59
Well i'm looking at this as a potential customer and sending a bearing back to Australia to test with a platter seems a big hassel in a time/cost factor! Would that mean paying import duty on a bearing twice? Or would sending back the platter and bearing just incur the one charge you would get with the platter anyway?
Does this even need to be done? There has only been 2 people i've noticed with this issue and 1 of them,Rob,is happy with his.
As Macca and I covered, if you get your paperwork right, VAT and duty will only be payable on the "added value". So if you ship out a bearing valued at £400 and a platter at £600 or whatever they cost, and you bring back the same (or warranty repair replacements) you would only pay duty on the value of any service work charged.
That hasn't come out as clear as I would have liked - "No - you won't pay duty twice if you get the paperwork right" ;)
I know you won't follow this Marco, but can I share some good advice - the best - I was given over on TAS
The advice came from Singularity, who used to post as "Andrew" on HFS.
"Stop looking there. When I did so, I started to enjoy HiFi again. The constant negativity sucks all the joy out of you" or something to that effect. At the time I was monitoring Cagey's return to the forum, but I have been so much happier since returning to being completely oblivious to its existence.
:cool:
Lol... I completely agree, Richard. It's nothing but a midden full of life's malcontented losers and underachievers...
However, *occasionally* things written there (even if in reality are only being read by a handful of nutters, and those getting their daily dose of comedy, along the lines of 'let's all laugh at the loons', count me in) need challenging and correcting, especially when it involves protecting someone's hard-earned good name, like Mike's.
Marco.
They make me laugh. and I think I am one post away from a permanent ban.
I have been banned for a week after "repetitive" posting, which is what EOTW seems to be, a kind of biased moderation if you will.
I also got a warning for not respecting an admin decision after posting a smiley after a retort similar to the original comment was moderated. Well, they may as well ban me now as there is no way I will ever respect one of the admins over there.
As for the comment about rough handling damaging the ETP platter in transit, if the box is unmarked, then I would suggest that the issue is elsewhere and likely to be caused by the stresses of machining.
Oldpinkman
06-12-2015, 13:12
They make me laugh. and I think I am one post away from a permanent ban.
I have been banned for a week after "repetitive" posting, which is what EOTW seems to be, a kind of biased moderation if you will.
I also got a warning for not respecting an admin decision after posting a smiley after a retort similar to the original comment was moderated. Well, they may as well ban me now as there is no way I will ever respect one of the admins over there.
As for the comment about rough handling damaging the ETP platter in transit, if the box is unmarked, then I would suggest that the issue is elsewhere and likely to be caused by the stresses of machining.
And I take it from Marco's posts there have been complaints of censorship here - on the back of the "removed" thread - explanations given and accepted. That is a bit rich considering the amount of razor-blading of our posts the muppet scientist carried out, under the guise of spurious "ad-hominum" or more usually "unwarranted attack on NVA" - when in fact they were only pointing out the limitations of his understanding of how electrickery works.
Enough, my very last words ever on the subject (although I am aware what happens to people who make statements like that) :rolleyes:
Ali Tait
06-12-2015, 13:17
Couldn't agree more.
kininigin
06-12-2015, 13:25
Hi Darren,
Personally, I doubt it needs doing, but perhaps just to be on the safe side, it might be a good idea. We need Mike to comment properly on this, but regardless, as Rob has confirmed, any minuscule 'wobble' on the ETP (for whatever reason) isn't anything like serious enough to affect its sonic performance.
Jeez, a lot of brand new records these days are 'warped' to a far, far greater degree, and played on on supposedly flat, 'non-wobbly platters' of various descriptions, apparently without any negative impact on sound quality, so think about that...!! ;)
Marco.
Doesn't Rob also use a Ortofon 2M Black,which is supposed to be very critical in set up? If so and he has not (subjectively) noticed ill effects,then i wouldn't be unduly worried!
Yes i have a few warped records and they play fine! Still,a flat platter would be preferable to a non-flat one! We will see in the new year if i bite the bullet or not.
kininigin
06-12-2015, 13:26
As Macca and I covered, if you get your paperwork right, VAT and duty will only be payable on the "added value". So if you ship out a bearing valued at £400 and a platter at £600 or whatever they cost, and you bring back the same (or warranty repair replacements) you would only pay duty on the value of any service work charged.
That hasn't come out as clear as I would have liked - "No - you won't pay duty twice if you get the paperwork right" ;)
Ahh i see,thanks for the clarification.
RobbieGong
06-12-2015, 13:43
Doesn't Rob also use a Ortofon 2M Black,which is supposed to be very critical in set up? If so and he has not (subjectively) noticed ill effects,then i wouldn't be unduly worried!
Yes i have a few warped records and they play fine! Still,a flat platter would be preferable to a non-flat one! We will see in the new year if i bite the bullet or not.
The Black is a PITA to set up in my experience but an absolute beaut in my system when set up properly. Of course in an ideal world and for those reasons I'd prefer any platter to spin perfectly level on full rotation. Records with warps bug the hell out of me let alone.
I now believe Marco's wobbled all along too, and still does, why otherwise would he say this ?
Are you as thick, pigheaded and unable to read what's in front of you, as Richard Dunn? Because, you dim old fart, I'm referring to RobbieGong's slight 'wobbling' platter, not mine! :doh:
Have you asked Martin T yet, if his ETP platter 'wobbles'? No, because you know what he'll tell you!!
Right, enough of this nonsense for the moment, a rather fine bottle of Haut-Médoc awaits, along with some roast quail. Laters.... :cheers:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
06-12-2015, 15:41
We await Mike's response to this.
My suspicion is that it the issue is more to do with sample variances in the spindle taper of the partnering MN bearing, the 'worst' of which (considering that we're talking about a margin that is minute), don't allow ETP platters to 'seat' themselves properly flush onto the bearing, thus causing a dip/wobble when the platter is spinning.
*If* that is the case, then the only way to 100% test for that would be to insist that bearings and platters, sent to customers, are matched up and tested together before being shipped. Or if someone already has an MN bearing, and wants an ETP platter, that they are asked to send their bearing to Mike, in order to match it up with the specific platter that they'll be sent.
Marco.
Just having a skim through in the peace before the footie. (We have had a 2nd viewing from the lovely couple who intend buying our house, and feeling a bit more confident about the February move now - and that viewing has been keeping me busy today_)
I'm not sure this explanation of yours Marco, works - and indeed feel it may cause more problems than its intended to solve. A "custom fit" requirement effectively makes it a combination product at a much higher commitment price than if both products work perfectly happily with other bearings and platters.
But regardless of that issue, I am fairly sure the videos on the original thread showed the platter inverted, with no bearing, resting on a flat surface and rocking. If that was the case (and since the thread has gone, I can't check) then it had nothing to do with spindle taper or bearing platter matching. Still - at least that would remove the bother of needing to have matched bearings and platters
:scratch:
Oldpinkman
06-12-2015, 15:50
Sadly you will find in this world that there are always disappointed people who were never clever enough to be first, but are always keen to cut down the tall poppies that are!!!
I realise this comment was directed at others "in another place", and not my mate Arthur, and I empathise. I concur - innovation is easily copied. However, for the record, the first use , as far as I am aware, of a plastic platter on a record player was the Pink Triangle acrylic platter. Certainly its designer, "Mr Funk", aka "Mr Pink Triangle" aka - er, AK - held the patent for it. Others copied (before expiry of the patent) but I believe he was first to implement the idea. And I think he was the first to implement a plastic platter for a Technics SL1200 too. The patent is of course now expired, and anybody can quite legitimately make turntable platters from plastic.
Hi Darren,
Personally, I doubt it needs doing, but perhaps just to be on the safe side, it might be a good idea. We need Mike to comment properly on this, but regardless, as Rob has confirmed, any minuscule 'wobble' on the ETP (for whatever reason) isn't anything like serious enough to affect its sonic performance.
Jeez, a lot of brand new records these days are 'warped' to a far, far greater degree, and played on on supposedly flat, 'non-wobbly platters' of various descriptions, apparently without any negative impact on sound quality, so think about that...!! ;)
Marco.
With all due respect, a poncy 180g record could well be out of true but a what is it a £400-£600 platter be out of true?:steam: l would be pretty cheesed off.
Are the quotes on this thread that are not attributed to a specific forum member actually quotes from another forum - it makes for rather disjointed reading?
Goldmund was making extensive use of an acrylic for arm boards, chassis and platters at a similar time that PT started to.
I can think of no mechanism whereby rough handling during shipping could cause the platter issues that were shown earlier.
I'm not sure this explanation of yours Marco, works - and indeed feel it may cause more problems than its intended to solve. A "custom fit" requirement effectively makes it a combination product at a much higher commitment price than if both products work perfectly happily with other bearings and platters.
I see what you mean, Richard, but that's not necessarily true. You can still do it in two steps, as Darren (Kinnigin) here is considering, who already owns an MN bearing. All I meant was that, if there is a minute machining issue with some spindle tapers, not allowing the ETP platter to 'seat' itself properly onto the bearing, then my suggestion is one way of avoiding it. I believe that's the likely cause for the 'wobble', for example, in Rob's platter, as he hasn't mentioned anything about the platter itself not being flat.
We still await Mike commenting on this matter, however.
You know yourself with bespoke Funk products for the Technics (I believe Arthur had some problems in that respect with the MK2 Funk platter, which Martin T reported, and were later resolved), that when you produce custom-made items like this in tiny quantities, small errors in manufacturing can occur (when you don't always have the two parts needed to hand, which require 'mating' together extremely accurately), and in turn can cause problems.
That's why I feel that the only real way of eradicating this issue, when modifying the Technics is, first of all, yes, buy a bearing and platter together, which will then allow Mike to test both as a pairing and ensure that the 'fit' is 100% true, but otherwise for those who already own bearings, considering buying an ETP platter, it would probably be advisable sending their bearings to Mike, in order to allow him to perform a custom match. Otherwise, when people are buying both items separately, there will always exist a margin for error. I'm not excusing this at all, but it can and does happen.
It's a different ball game altogether when you're SME or Michell, and are building turntables from scratch, where every part is designed in-house to fit, thus you can ensure perfection every time. However, that's not always the case when modifying a turnable with bespoke-made aftermarket items, although when they're right, the sonic improvements they can bring are significant and very worthwhile, as as others and I, who haven't experienced these issues, know all too well with our MN bearings and ETPs.
But regardless of that issue, I am fairly sure the videos on the original thread showed the platter inverted, with no bearing, resting on a flat surface and rocking. If that was the case (and since the thread has gone, I can't check) then it had nothing to do with spindle taper or bearing platter matching. Still - at least that would remove the bother of needing to have matched bearings and platters
Yes, Andrew's case appeared to be different, where the issue seemed to be with how the platter itself had been machined, hence my mentioning whether Mike had changed the sub-contractor he was using to produce the platters, or if indeed he was doing this all himself now. I'm afraid it's all guesswork until Mike himself comments in more detail.
Marco.
Are the quotes on this thread that are not attributed to a specific forum member actually quotes from another forum - it makes for rather disjointed reading?
Hi Mark,
Yes, I thought you knew. The quotes concerned are from 'you know where', where a certain loony 'amplifier designer' resides. The quotes were from him and Dave Cawley (who posts there).
Marco.
It's that the quotes come from different people that makes it disjointed; but, even then, isn't all this carrying arguments across forums against the AUP?
In theory, yes (although there is no AUP here), only an ethos.
However, as I've said before, given the sheer amount of bullshit we have to put up with from over there, 95% of which is ignored, I reserve the right to *occasionally* draw attention to the most ludicrous of it, and to correct factual errors, arisen from the fertile imagination of a disturbed old loon, possessing a pathological mania with AoS and me, which is tantamount to stalking.
Anyway, let's keep the discussion on-topic [and so the thread will now be moderated accordingly]! :)
Marco.
With all due respect, a poncy 180g record could well be out of true but a what is it a £400-£600 platter be out of true?:steam: l would be pretty cheesed off.
Sure, and you'd be justified to feel that way. However, mistakes can easily be made. We're all human and guilty of making them sometimes. In business, it's not the mistakes you make that matter most; it's how you deal with them.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
06-12-2015, 19:44
Sure, and you'd be justified to feel that way. However, mistakes can easily be made. We're all human and guilty of making them sometimes. In business, it's not the mistakes you make that matter most; it's how you deal with them.
Marco.
+1
Sure, and you'd be justified to feel that way. However, mistakes can easily be made. We're all human and guilty of making them sometimes. In business, it's not the mistakes you make that matter most; it's how you deal with them.
Marco.
Quality control seems to have been absent though. Talking of a very expensive product, and made semi bespoke so they should be perfect before shipping, especially when it being transported to the other side of the world.
Undoubtedly, mate.
Quality control issues, however, appear only to be with more recent items, as I must reiterate, in order to provide some balance, that my own ETP platter is perfect (given my levels of anal fastidiousness in these matters, a 'wobble' isn't something I'd have missed to begin with or settled for), despite the mischievous claims made elsewhere by those with an obvious agenda.
I can also state the same for the ETP platter belonging to Martin T, as I was present in his house, when his was fitted to his T/T and tested against a Funk MKI and MN copper/alloy platter, and there was zero 'wobble' from the ETP.
Andy (REXTON) has also confirmed that his was fine, although he didn't keep it, but that was only because he didn't consider it a sufficient upgrade over the MN copper/alloy one. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the ETP being defective. I also feel certain that if John (Prestonchipfryer) still posted here, he would confirm the same with his, and so will others here who own ETPs, who've yet to come forward.
Therefore, putting all this into a proper perspective, the 'wobble/non flat issue' appears to be a recent problem, and entirely resolvable, not something inherent in the design of the ETP platter itself or its matching bearing.
Marco.
Quality control seems to have been absent though. Talking of a very expensive product, and made semi bespoke so they should be perfect before shipping, especially when it being transported to the other side of the world.
+1
Oldpinkman
06-12-2015, 21:01
Marco. I think it is fair to say everyone makes mistakes. It is also fair to say that what is important is how you put them right. With regards to shipping quality products to the other side of the world, it really helps to have a local distrbutor who can act for you. Mike has been unable to examine this faulty product, nor have a reliable distributor do so on his behalf. That makes it difficult for him to comment.
However, it seems appropriate to call a spade a spade. From the videos it appears Andrew had a warped platter. The most likely cause of that, given all that I have ever been told by competent engineers, is that arises due to machining without allowing the material to rest. It seems bizarre, defensive even, to start looking for other reasons, given that is massively the most likely, in the absence of any sound reason for believing that explanation unlikely.
There are only 2 possibilities I can see for rejecting that reason as the most likely explanation in the absence of strong contrary evidence. First would be convincing evidence that plastic does not stress when machined, and does not require resting before final finishing to achieve reliable consistent stable results. I am not expecting that evidence to be forthcoming.
Second would be to establish that in fact Mike or his engineers who machine the platters do in fact allow them to rest in that way. In the light of Mikes response to my account of resting platters at pink triangle, that seems unlikely.
If those 2 possibilities are rejected, it would seem, according to the engineering advice I received before, more surprising that there are not more distorted ETP platters.
In that regard it is a bit confused. Your appeal for ETP owners to confirm the volume of perfect platters has met with an underwhelming response so far. Equally, the clamour of disappointed ETP owners with substandard platters has been deathly quiet
But, in the case of Andrews issues which were the start of the discussion, it seems counterintuitive to ignore the most probable explanation.
The obvious response would seem to be to offer a free recall and replacement with non-defective stock for any dissatisfied customers, with a definition of acceptable tolerances. On present evidence there will be no claims though.
No problem with any of that, Richard, none of which of course invalidates what I wrote in post #40. As I said, it's up to Mike now to come forward and 'spill the beans', as it were, so let's stop surmising and allow the man who knows the relevant facts to comment and offer a possible solution :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
06-12-2015, 21:42
Marco. I think it is fair to say everyone makes mistakes. It is also fair to say that what is important is how you put them right. With regards to shipping quality products to the other side of the world, it really helps to have a local distrbutor who can act for you. Mike has been unable to examine this faulty product, nor have a reliable distributor do so on his behalf. That makes it difficult for him to comment.
However, it seems appropriate to call a spade a spade. From the videos it appears Andrew had a warped platter. The most likely cause of that, given all that I have ever been told by competent engineers, is that arises due to machining without allowing the material to rest. It seems bizarre, defensive even, to start looking for other reasons, given that is massively the most likely, in the absence of any sound reason for believing that explanation unlikely.
There are only 2 possibilities I can see for rejecting that reason as the most likely explanation in the absence of strong contrary evidence. First would be convincing evidence that plastic does not stress when machined, and does not require resting before final finishing to achieve reliable consistent stable results. I am not expecting that evidence to be forthcoming.
Second would be to establish that in fact Mike or his engineers who machine the platters do in fact allow them to rest in that way. In the light of Mikes response to my account of resting platters at pink triangle, that seems unlikely.
If those 2 possibilities are rejected, it would seem, according to the engineering advice I received before, more surprising that there are not more distorted ETP platters.
In that regard it is a bit confused. Your appeal for ETP owners to confirm the volume of perfect platters has met with an underwhelming response so far. Equally, the clamour of disappointed ETP owners with substandard platters has been deathly quiet
But, in the case of Andrews issues which were the start of the discussion, it seems counterintuitive to ignore the most probable explanation.
The obvious response would seem to be to offer a free recall and replacement with non-defective stock for any dissatisfied customers, with a definition of acceptable tolerances. On present evidence there will be no claims though.
Would be nice but as Marco says, only Mike can comment to that regard
Mike_New
07-12-2015, 01:46
Hi folks
I have refrained from entering into any discussions until now so as to wait until all the noise has calmed down. Since everyone has an opinion on the subject I really do not know where to start.
Firstly however the “wobble” that Andrew showed had absolutely nothing to do with the spindle-taper matching.
As far as I could determine the platter was laid onto a sheet of glass resting on what looked like a wooden table. From the image sent to me it looked very much like the glass sheet was also moving.
It maybe that the ETP material has warped we probably will never know.
I tried to enter into a dialogue with the person concerned but 24Hrs later it was all over before I could organise anything.
Returning Bearings to me to have them matched with the platter is not necessary and would be very impractical for obvious reasons and most certainly no one would do it.
Up until now we have had no problems and all users have been happy with the much improved sonic performance of their ETP Platters.
Now all of a sudden there are a very minority of participants many of them who do not have SL1200s much less platters or bearings, all eagerly informing everyone else of what the problem is and suggesting a myriad of solutions and things that must be done.
The Platters like my Bearings, have been adopted by many members here and elsewhere because they have all in turn vouched to others for their effectiveness in improving the sonic performance of the SL1200.
Also very many users over the last few years, having upgraded their SLs have moved on and no longer spend time here so we do not hear from them.
The sad part about all this is that the wider interest in the SL has fallen off to the point where I no longer have any orders for Bearings and the last platter was shipped about four months ago. So I have to give serious thought as to how I proceed in the future.
I have been machining platters on a two off basis in order not to disappoint people.
As far as I could determine the platter was laid onto a sheet of glass resting on what looked like a wooden table. From the image sent to me it looked very much like the glass sheet was also moving.
I saw that as well, but it appeared to be less than the platter moved, but as you say, you may never know.
Mike_New
07-12-2015, 05:47
Hi Kevin
I have a precision Face-Plate which I check platters on between machining operations.
The particular formula of ETP which I use is used for precision parts and is regarded to be pretty stable.
I believe that the platter may have been thrown into a transport bin and this has caused it to distort, if indeed it has.
I mark the packaging very clearly "DO NOT THROW" but I doubt if many of the process people take any notice.
I will in future put even more packing around it.
I’m surprised more people haven’t come forward on this issue as prompted by Marco. Information can only help here.
Surely it would be constructive if Robbie, Andrew and Adam, and any others who have had platter issues, comment on whether the packaging material was damaged or not. This would help to rule in or out the possibility of damage occurring during shipping.
Hi Mike,
I believe that the platter may have been thrown into a transport bin and this has caused it to distort, if indeed it has.
I mark the packaging very clearly "DO NOT THROW" but I doubt if many of the process people take any notice.
I will in future put even more packing around it.
Could you explain the relevance of the above in more detail? It's unclear to those of us, not 'au fait' with the production process, how the above could be relevant to or explain Andrew's situation with his platter. If stuff is being thrown around the place, then that is totally unacceptable.
Also, who are these "process people", and what role do they play in the production of the ETP? How much of the job, in terms of machining/producing ETPs, are you personally responsible for? :)
Lastly, how will you ensure, beyond any doubt in future, that any ETPs shipped to customers will be 100% perfect, and will neither 'wobble', when spun on a T/T, or be less than completely flat?
I'm not saying any of that was definite in Andrew's case (as we'll never know now), but answering this will give potential customers for an ETP (such as Darren) some much needed piece of mind to go ahead with their purchase.
I think that all your current and potential customers deserve to be informed accordingly.
Marco.
I’m surprised more people haven’t come forward on this issue as prompted by Marco. Information can only help here.
Surely it would be constructive if Robbie, Andrew and Adam, and any others who have had platter issues, comment on whether the packaging material was damaged or not. This would help to rule in or out the possibility of damage occurring during shipping.
Hi John,
Absolutely. As they say, 'it's good to talk'. There's nothing worse than ignorance and misinformation, or worse, disinformation (the likes of which Cawley and Dunce are perpetrating). So let's talk, and get everything out into the open. If dealt with correctly, it can only increase buyer confidence in Mike's products.
Marco.
I saw that as well, but it appeared to be less than the platter moved, but as you say, you may never know.
Hi Kevin,
You're a member of TAS, aren't you? If so, could you do me a favour, please, and start a thread there about this matter, asking for Martin T's views? As a (to my knowledge) owner of a perfectly functioning ETP (and MN bearing), it would be interesting to know his thoughts on all of this.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
allthingsanalogue
07-12-2015, 09:16
OK
I'll keep this quick.
1. It was wrapped in an entire newspaper I think, with 2 lots of cardboard much bigger than the platter. No damage to any as far as I could see.
2. No issue with bearing shaft as was straight as a die, perfect on original platter
3. I did ask several questions to Mike before it arrived as there was no mention of the pulse generator in any of the instructions, if it had to come or not and I was not stupid enough to try and pull it off the original platter, also I wanted to make sure of everything before modding the deck in an un-revertible way.
4. It was me who asked Marco to remove the thread (not down to censorship) as I had only asked advice on here and I was not slagging Mike off in anyway (although I know he feels different), agree to disagree I think. This is why I asked it to be removed.
And finally.......
5. Reading comments on here I have re filmed the platter rocking. This time on 10mm glass that did not move in the slightest.
ETOOqHsvT18&feature=youtu.be
http://youtu.be/X8lpvhX-eMA
Hi Andrew,
Fixed your YouTube link! :)
Thanks for confirming that you asked for the original thread to be taken down, thus removing any doubts about censorship, the notion of which was completely ridiculous, to anyone who knows how things are run here. From your video, it looks almost certain that your particular platter was warped or 'dished'. How that happened, however, is anyone's guess...
Unless Mike can shed some light onto it?
Marco.
Oldpinkman
07-12-2015, 09:49
but answering this will give potential customers for an ETP (such as Darren) some much needed piece of mind to go ahead with their purchase.
Marco.
I knew you meant "peace"
And love ;)
Lol... Defo. The morning injection of caffeine hasn't kicked in yet! :D
Marco.
Fish? Yes, did you try those 'salmon flaps' I recommended? Give them a nice old sniff, before you lick them! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Cant afford pink flaps mate.. I get the yellow ones:ner:
I will now discipline myself for going off subject:eek:
People have shut up so as not to rock the boat but it appears all but the first few sold may have the problem to some extent if we believe Marco has a perfect example.
Yo, Cock-Boy, if you don't believe me, ask Martin T, over on TAS, if his ETP platter 'wobbles'... Or are you too scared that the answer you're given won't suit your agenda?? :ner:
You could even ask him to make a video of his platter 'in action'. He has the wherewithal to do that. Unfortunately I don't, although if anyone with a smart phone would like to visit and produce such a video, be my guest! :)
Funny how none of the AoS/Mike New detractors, such as Cawley and Cock-Boy, seem willing to ask Martin (a long-time ETP platter user) his thoughts on this :hmm:
Marco.
Cant afford pink flaps mate.. I get the yellow ones:ner:
I will now discipline myself for going off subject:eek:
You should know not to encourage me! :lol:
Marco.
Allthingsanalogue, the AoS OP has joined us, so he can join in **uncensored** discussion here about it.
Well, if Andrew has joined your midden, it won't be to discuss any issues relating to 'censorship', that's for sure, because there wasn't any!
Actually, I'm glad that you brought up the subject of censorship... Care to tell folks about the extract of a private email discussion I had with DSJR, which last night you decided to publish on your forum (and Dave had no right sending you in the first place), as outlined below [my email text quoted to Dave, shown in blue]:
Well Jammy he has a high opinion of you, "And what the hell would Jammy know? He’s nothing but a clown and a Dunn arse-licker! :-\ He knows f*ck all about hi-fi."
...which you've now deleted and attempted to cover up, after Dave was, quite rightly, livid about it? It's not there now, although Dave clearly refers to it, so that's undeniable censorship, pure and simple...
What is still there, however, rather hilariously, is Jammy's response (underneath the cartoon you posted - see top of page 1199), and your subsequent reply to him about cable tidiness, which because of your post deletion/censorship, now makes no sense whatsoever!! :lol:
This, once again, clearly demonstrates, not only gross senility at work (as you should've done the job properly and deleted the rest of the relevant evidence, instead of leaving it behind), but a complete inability to grasp the highly comedic level of your OWN hypocrisy! :D
Don't try and deny what you wrote, as I have a screenshot of it, so next time, you shrivelled up and useless old tit, PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!!
Marco.
Ali Tait
07-12-2015, 10:56
Marco, seriously, stay away from that place for a week and see how much better you will feel. It's really not doing you any favours..
Lol, Ali, I'm perfectly ok! I just can't resist (when such a glaring opportunity presents itself) showing up the deluded idiot for what he is!!
I'll rein it in now, as that job has been carried out 100% successfully :)
Marco
Audio Al
07-12-2015, 11:00
I have tried to keep out of these threads " Appalling " :doh: content and language :doh:
I own a ETP platter and am delighted with it , Is it 100% flat ? Who knows ,Who cares if it ONLY 98% flat ( Not Me ) do I get a rocking on a sheet of glass ? Don't know ! never tried it
While talking glass , has the piece of glass been confirm 100% flat on both sides ? and is the item the glass is on 100% flat and level ?
Come on chaps its about the MUSIC , Strangely my arm has a facility to move from outside the rim of a record to the inside of the record , and it goes up and down as well " when I lift it onto the LP and off when the side is ended
Also in my 1000 + lp collection I have some that are warped and they still play fine
Also my Shelter 5000 / Denon 304 and Goldring Eroica-l all have suspension built in to accommodate movement
The ETP platter I believe stands for Engineering Thermo Plastic and yes its turned on a lathe , I think most things move slightly when stress factors are altered
I do woodturning as a example and a turned item can be flat on the day its turned and the following day will be like a banana , bearing in mind the outer diameter of the platter very slight movement is possible , Does it really matter unless its a HUGE amount of movement ? I don't think so :)
Just pop it on the TT , do you use a mat ? if so put that on , sit back and enjoy the sonic improvement :)
Yo, Cock-Boy, if you don't believe me, ask Martin T, over on TAS, if his ETP platter 'wobbles'... Or are you too scared that the answer you're given won't suit your agenda?? :ner:
You could even ask him to make a video of his platter 'in action'. He has the wherewithal to do that. Unfortunately I don't, although if anyone with a smart phone would like to visit and produce such a video, be my guest! :)
Funny how none of the AoS/Mike New detractors, such as Cawley and Cock-Boy, seem willing to ask Martin (a long-time ETP platter user) his thoughts on this :hmm:
Marco.
Marco, what on earth is this do with Plattergate?
Andy, see the dialogue I had with Mark yesterday about this, from post #34- 36: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41916-Mike-New-ETP-Platter/page4
As Ali has suggested, I really should ignore the idiots, but sometimes an open goal is too hard to resist! :carrot: :D
Anyway, we move on...
Marco.
I have tried to keep out of these threads " Appalling " :doh: content and language :doh:
I own a ETP platter and am delighted with it , Is it 100% flat ? Who knows ,Who cares if it ONLY 98% flat ( Not Me ) do I get a rocking on a sheet of glass ? Don't know ! never tried it
While talking glass , has the piece of glass been confirm 100% flat on both sides ? and is the item the glass is on 100% flat and level ?
Come on chaps its about the MUSIC , Strangely my arm has a facility to move from outside the rim of a record to the inside of the record , and it goes up and down as well " when I lift it onto the LP and off when the side is ended
Also in my 1000 + lp collection I have some that are warped and they still play fine
Also my Shelter 5000 / Denon 304 and Goldring Eroica-l all have suspension built in to accommodate movement
The ETP platter I believe stands for Engineering Thermo Plastic and yes its turned on a lathe , I think most things move slightly when stress factors are altered
I do woodturning as a example and a turned item can be flat on the day its turned and the following day will be like a banana , bearing in mind the outer diameter of the platter very slight movement is possible , Does it really matter unless its a HUGE amount of movement ? I don't think so
Just pop it on the TT , do you use a mat ? if so put that on , sit back and enjoy the sonic improvement
Quite right, mate - and apologies for the bad language earlier. I'm afraid that when folk treat me with such utter contempt and disrespect, my automatic reaction is to return the compliment with interest!
So, another satisfied ETP user has spoken up! The only test I've performed on mine, prompted by Andrew's situation, is sitting face onto the T/T and watching for any up or down movement, when the platter is spinning, of which there is none.
Have I taken the platter off and sat it face down on top of a piece of glass, or video'd it (although I fully appreciate why Andrew did)? No, because as you say, life's too short, and the bloody thing (along with the whole T/T) sounds superb!! :)
Marco.
Andy, see the dialogue I had with Mark yesterday, from post #34- 36, here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41916-Mike-New-ETP-Platter/page4
As Ali has suggested, I really should ignore the idiots, but sometimes an open goal is too hard to resist! Anyway, we move on...
Marco.
Yeah do that.
I have tried to keep out of these threads " Appalling " :doh: content and language :doh:
I own a ETP platter and am delighted with it , Is it 100% flat ? Who knows ,Who cares if it ONLY 98% flat ( Not Me ) do I get a rocking on a sheet of glass ? Don't know ! never tried it
While talking glass , has the piece of glass been confirm 100% flat on both sides ? and is the item the glass is on 100% flat and level ?
Come on chaps its about the MUSIC , Strangely my arm has a facility to move from outside the rim of a record to the inside of the record , and it goes up and down as well " when I lift it onto the LP and off when the side is ended
Also in my 1000 + lp collection I have some that are warped and they still play fine
Also my Shelter 5000 / Denon 304 and Goldring Eroica-l all have suspension built in to accommodate movement
The ETP platter I believe stands for Engineering Thermo Plastic and yes its turned on a lathe , I think most things move slightly when stress factors are altered
I do woodturning as a example and a turned item can be flat on the day its turned and the following day will be like a banana , bearing in mind the outer diameter of the platter very slight movement is possible , Does it really matter unless its a HUGE amount of movement ? I don't think so :)
Just pop it on the TT , do you use a mat ? if so put that on , sit back and enjoy the sonic improvement :)
Not for the price of the platter Al?
However ETP is supposed to be a bitch to work with.
Audio Al
07-12-2015, 11:23
I purchased my platter for sonic improvement and paid the price , am I happy YES , Do I care if its 98% flat NO
Just hope for Mikes sake it does not turn into another John Wood valve amp thread and ruin Mike reputation , Mike is a one off type of guy prepared to push the boat out with low level production runs for enthusiast HiFi improvements that other manufacturers would not bother with because of such small production runs and low mark ups
Time will tell ,
Im with you all the way Mike :thumbsup:
A dishonest man spreads strife. Some places are rife with them I guess. Personally I wont be getting dirty that way.
Oldpinkman
07-12-2015, 11:56
I have tried to keep out of these threads " Appalling " :doh: content and language :doh:
I own a ETP platter and am delighted with it , Is it 100% flat ? Who knows ,Who cares if it ONLY 98% flat ( Not Me ) do I get a rocking on a sheet of glass ? Don't know ! never tried it
While talking glass , has the piece of glass been confirm 100% flat on both sides ? and is the item the glass is on 100% flat and level ?
Come on chaps its about the MUSIC , Strangely my arm has a facility to move from outside the rim of a record to the inside of the record , and it goes up and down as well " when I lift it onto the LP and off when the side is ended
Also in my 1000 + lp collection I have some that are warped and they still play fine
Also my Shelter 5000 / Denon 304 and Goldring Eroica-l all have suspension built in to accommodate movement
The ETP platter I believe stands for Engineering Thermo Plastic and yes its turned on a lathe , I think most things move slightly when stress factors are altered
I do woodturning as a example and a turned item can be flat on the day its turned and the following day will be like a banana , bearing in mind the outer diameter of the platter very slight movement is possible , Does it really matter unless its a HUGE amount of movement ? I don't think so :)
Just pop it on the TT , do you use a mat ? if so put that on , sit back and enjoy the sonic improvement :)
I have some sympathy with this. The warp on Andy's platter probably doesn't spoil the music, but it does make the TT look a bit sea-sick. I have a treasured copy of Sherezade by the Orchestre de la Suisse Normande, with warps that mean the cartridge moves up and down like the ships in Sherezades tales, and which if I think about it is probably responsible for me not owning a Decca cartridge. But if I could get a flat one I would. And I would expect a platter to be flat - that seems the most basic of requirements
There is an expectation about fit and finish when paying top dollar for items. It caused us grief in the old PT days trying to put so much in the product but keep matching the LP12 price point. The move to Anni - and top dollar price, allowed us to bring fit and finish up to expected standards.
Yes - wood moves - as my jammed office door confirms, which is why UPVC is better for doors and windows, and acrylic is a more suitable material for platters. Movement? Shouldn't be any unless subjected to silly heat - as Marco's experience confirms. My original Pink Triangle platter - a Sid special - is still completely flat after 20 years - no, shit 30 years . I'm getting old :doh: It too was turned on a lathe.
A dishonest man spreads strife...
Never a truer word was said ;)
Anyway, are you having salmon for lunch?
Marco.
Never a truer word was said ;)
Anyway, are you have salmon for lunch?
Marco.
No. Had some river cobbler for breakfast though. Chicken for lunch probably or veg tortolini:) ....
Oldpinkman
07-12-2015, 12:15
Not for the price of the platter Al?
However ETP is supposed to be a bitch to work with.
ETP is not one material
ETP: (Engineering Thermo Plastic, of which there are many types including acrylics) (source - Mike New's web site)
I believe that Mike uses Delrin (the Dupont brand of Polyoxymethylene) (not sure where I thought I read it now - I think it was maybe when I was talking to Martin T in the original platter wars ).
But yes - it needs careful machining.
walpurgis
07-12-2015, 12:18
UPVC is better for doors and windows
My UPVC front door has warped and a couple of the windows.
Anyway. Undulating platters are not unheard of. Goldring Lenco had a problem with the GL85 back in the seventies. I've seen a couple of those with warped platters and many of the cheaper Garrards were similar.
walpurgis
07-12-2015, 12:22
No. Had some river cobbler for breakfast though. Chicken for lunch probably or veg tortolini:) ....
Fish for breakfast? Never, couldn't face that. Mind you. I don't have breakfast anyway. :)
Quite fancy a chunk of crusty french bread with decent cheddar & salad for lunch.
I have asked MartinT if he has any problems with his ETP platter.
I expect the answer to be "no" as from what I know of Martin, he is a bit of a perfectionist.
Delrin certainly isn't a 'bitch' to work with - in fact it machines very nicely which is why it is so widely used in turntables these days (one of the primary reasons anyway).
If tight tolerances and a fine surface finish are required then everything needs 'careful machining', but Delrin is easer to work with than many other materials.
I have asked MartinT if he has any problems with his ETP platter.
I expect the answer to be "no" as from what I know of Martin, he is a bit of a perfectionist.
Yup, as indeed I am! It will be interesting reading his take on this... Maybe he'll say that, since reading this thread about the 'wobble' (as I know he looks in), he's checked his platter and found that it has one! :D :eek:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
07-12-2015, 12:28
My UPVC front door has warped and a couple of the windows.
I must be luckier with my plastics - mine are all fine. The wooden office door expands in the damp (this time of year). Its a good fit in the summer, and needs a good shove in December. The UPVC's all fit like a glove in all conditions.
Anyway. Undulating platters are not unheard of. Goldring Lenco had a problem with the GL85 back in the seventies. I've seen a couple of those with warped platters and many of the cheaper Garrards were similar.
Are you saying that's a good thing? Maybe you're right. Unreasonable customer expectations that a platter should be flat. What would you say is the maximum acceptable warp?
Hi Kevin
I have a precision Face-Plate which I check platters on between machining operations.
The particular formula of ETP which I use is used for precision parts and is regarded to be pretty stable.
I believe that the platter may have been thrown into a transport bin and this has caused it to distort, if indeed it has.
I mark the packaging very clearly "DO NOT THROW" but I doubt if many of the process people take any notice.
I will in future put even more packing around it.
Undestood Mike.
From another post elsewhere on this thread, I am surprised at the packing materials listed.
Surely some type of foam packing would be more suitable for shipping precision parts?
Remember that the parcel handlers don't really care what is in the box. It's not theirs. I doubt they read warning labels at every handling operation.
Sure, having better packaging may add to the cost, but it would be much better in terms of protection offered in transit.
Kevin, I've just looked on TAS and can't see your question to Martin. Where was it posted? :)
Marco.
In a PM. The content of which I will forward on to Mike if there is an issue and Martin agrees to that.
I didn't post it on the forum due to the rule about inter-forum baggage.
Hi,
My summary of my experience of the ETP platter was deleted along with the previous thread.
As Marco had originally asked for only comments from people with non-defective platters I had kept quiet but in light of
So let's talk, and get everything out into the open
I will happily share my experience.
Regretfully it was not a good one.
-
I had been using the MN bearing for about a month. The fit with the standard Technics platter was perfect and I have no issues at all with the quality or efficacy of the bearing.
I then purchased the MN platter from a third party.
Despite many attempts I could not get the platter to run true (It wobbled).
Quite simply it did not ‘seat’ smoothly onto the bearing spindle.
I repeatedly tried cleaning and / or greasing both surfaces and various methods of placing the platter onto the spindle.
No matter what, it simply would not sit properly.
The result of course was that the platter would undulate when in motion.
It was also very easy to ‘rock’ on the spindle when static due to the mismatch.
This platter was rejected back to the supplier and I received a full refund.
-
I then approached MN and explained all the above and sent video footage.
Mike assured me that the fitment was not something I needed to worry about
He also stated ‘I will test fit your new platter with a bearing here to ensure a perfect fit’. ‘If you then still have a problem you can return your bearing to me on an exchange basis’.
-
After sending payment, for various reasons things didn’t move as quickly as I had been advised and I was one email away from cancelling but stuck it out and eventually the package was shipped.
I received a letter in the post to advise that it was ready for collection and there was import duty to be paid.
I paid the duty and collected the package.
There was absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the package had been mishandled, thrown, damaged or otherwise.
-
Much to my surprise, although this platter was a better fit than the first, it still rocked. Again, in much the same way as the first, it simply could not be fitted smoothly.
I sent MN a couple of videos.
I also removed the bearing from the deck and produced a video showing that when the spindle taper was inserted into the platter from the underside, although small, there was clearly still a mismatch between the taper profiles.
-
Where we disagreed is that I believed this taper mismatch was the cause of the ‘wobble’ (In my case)
Mike stated that he didn’t think it was enough to cause the problem.
So by this point, to be honest, I was just utterly sick of the whole debacle.
All I wanted to do was get back to playing music and stop messing about with my turntable.
Mike asked that I return the platter to him for inspection.
-
Unfortunately when I asked about returning my bearing for the ‘tested exchange unit’, apparently this promise had not been upheld and no such unit existed.
-
With any kind of traceability it would have cost me close to another £100 to send back the platter. Not to mention all the time involved.
Having already spent £1000 on the platter and bearing this was really just too much to bear.
The financial part is not a concern for me at all but given that this was my second faulty platter and how fed up I was with the whole thing I ended up agreeing to a settlement / reimbursement with Mike and shoved the platter in a cupboard never to be seen again.
Ultimately I was still ‘out of pocket’ but it was my decision not to return the platter.
-
This is a shame as with the exception of the wobble I was able to use the platter long enough to appreciate its sonic benefits!
-
So there we are. No axe to grind; no grudge; no agenda; just a disappointing experience.
Mike_New
07-12-2015, 12:43
Hi Folks,
To those that support what I have been trying to do over the past few years I say thanks.
The very big problem I have is trying to keep in phase with what is going on and the general flow of the
discussions. We are about 10 hours out of phase down here and as I write this the time is 11.41 PM so if you think I am
ignoring you all it is only because this thread is moving so fast and in different directions that I just cannot keep in step.
In a PM. The content of which I will forward on to Mike if there is an issue and Martin agrees to that.
I didn't post it on the forum due to the rule about inter-forum baggage.
It's not inter-forum baggage, though. It's a legitimate question relating to a product he owns and uses, which many folks would be interested in reading. Brushing it under the carpet, in that way, and turning it into 'Chinese whispers', isn't productive.
Marco.
Hi,
My summary of my experience of the ETP platter was deleted along with the previous thread.
As Marco had originally asked for only comments from people with non-defective platters I had kept quiet but in light of
I will happily share my experience.
Regretfully it was not a good one.
-
I had been using the MN bearing for about a month. The fit with the standard Technics platter was perfect and I have no issues at all with the quality or efficacy of the bearing.
I then purchased the MN platter from a third party.
Despite many attempts I could not get the platter to run true (It wobbled).
Quite simply it did not ‘seat’ smoothly onto the bearing spindle.
I repeatedly tried cleaning and / or greasing both surfaces and various methods of placing the platter onto the spindle.
No matter what, it simply would not sit properly.
The result of course was that the platter would undulate when in motion.
It was also very easy to ‘rock’ on the spindle when static due to the mismatch.
This platter was rejected back to the supplier and I received a full refund.
-
I then approached MN and explained all the above and sent video footage.
Mike assured me that the fitment was not something I needed to worry about
He also stated ‘I will test fit your new platter with a bearing here to ensure a perfect fit’. ‘If you then still have a problem you can return your bearing to me on an exchange basis’.
-
After sending payment, for various reasons things didn’t move as quickly as I had been advised and I was one email away from cancelling but stuck it out and eventually the package was shipped.
I received a letter in the post to advise that it was ready for collection and there was import duty to be paid.
I paid the duty and collected the package.
There was absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the package had been mishandled, thrown, damaged or otherwise.
-
Much to my surprise, although this platter was a better fit than the first, it still rocked. Again, in much the same way as the first, it simply could not be fitted smoothly.
I sent MN a couple of videos.
I also removed the bearing from the deck and produced a video showing that when the spindle taper was inserted into the platter from the underside, although small, there was clearly still a mismatch between the taper profiles.
-
Where we disagreed is that I believed this taper mismatch was the cause of the ‘wobble’ (In my case)
Mike stated that he didn’t think it was enough to cause the problem.
So by this point, to be honest, I was just utterly sick of the whole debacle.
All I wanted to do was get back to playing music and stop messing about with my turntable.
Mike asked that I return the platter to him for inspection.
-
Unfortunately when I asked about returning my bearing for the ‘tested exchange unit’, apparently this promise had not been upheld and no such unit existed.
-
With any kind of traceability it would have cost me close to another £100 to send back the platter. Not to mention all the time involved.
Having already spent £1000 on the platter and bearing this was really just too much to bear.
The financial part is not a concern for me at all but given that this was my second faulty platter and how fed up I was with the whole thing I ended up agreeing to a settlement / reimbursement with Mike and shoved the platter in a cupboard never to be seen again.
Ultimately I was still ‘out of pocket’ but it was my decision not to return the platter.
-
This is a shame as with the exception of the wobble I was able to use the platter long enough to appreciate its sonic benefits!
-
So there we are. No axe to grind; no grudge; no agenda; just a disappointing experience.
Thanks for that, Adam. You read my response correctly, which was for ALL experiences to be expressed, not just good ones. If Mike is to successfully address what seems like a genuine issue, and in turn improve matters for everyone's benefit, including his own, then all this has to be brought out into the open and dealt with constructively :)
Marco.
Hi Folks,
To those that support what I have been trying to do over the past few years I say thanks.
The very big problem I have is trying to keep in phase with what is going on and the general flow of the
discussions. We are about 10 hours out of phase down here and as I write this the time is 11.41 PM so if you think I am
ignoring you all it is only because this thread is moving so fast and in different directions that I just cannot keep in step.
No problem, mate. I fully appreciate your difficulties in that respect. We await your response when you are ready :)
Marco.
walpurgis
07-12-2015, 13:00
Are you saying that's a good thing? Maybe you're right. Unreasonable customer expectations that a platter should be flat. What would you say is the maximum acceptable warp?
Strange question. Why would anybody recommend it?
I will see what his response is.
If he has no issues, it will not make a particularly interesting thread, will it?
If he has an issue that he was toward of, it may mean he creates a thread of his own?
I don't care what other people think elsewhere. Having sold my bearing, I don't have any Mike New products any more, and don't have a particularly big axe to grind either. I am just amused at comments in a different thread in light of these minor new issues. People have different levels of what is acceptable, and when paying the money for a precision component, you expect it to be right.
If we can identify the issue/cause of the wobble, then it should be an easy fix for Mike through a change in process or packaging. Mike could probably investigate the induced stress by machining up a platter, and then performing an inspection in a few weeks time to simulate the shipping time. He has the tools to do the job.
I will see what his response is.
If he has no issues, it will not make a particularly interesting thread, will it?
If he has an issue that he was toward of, it may mean he creates a thread of his own?
Ok, fair enough. However, in the interest of statistics, I think we deserve to know whether he says that his platter 'wobbles' or not. Trouble is, it's the follow up to his answer, not the 'yes' or 'no', which could then provide a thread that's worth reading! ;)
If we can identify the issue/cause of the wobble, then it should be an easy fix for Mike through a change in process or packaging. Mike could probably investigate the induced stress by machining up a platter, and then performing an inspection in a few weeks time to simulate the shipping time. He has the tools to do the job.
Precisely. It was said and agreed yesterday that it's not mistakes or problems that matter, but how they are dealt with. It is an undeniable truism. Therefore, that's WHY I have allowed all this to be brought out into the open and discussed (not censored).
This is to allow Mike to deal with the matter in the correct way, so that the problem is eradicated *at source*, and all further ETP platters produced are 100% perfect before they're shipped to customers, and most importantly, arrive to them that way, without having suffered from warps, or the effects of 'de-stressing'.
After all, it's what any valued customer deserves. The fact is, NO-ONE 'hides' here on AoS (as we have nothing to hide), or is given any 'special favours': we tackle problems HEAD ON, and try to resolve them, for the benefit of everyone concerned!! :exactly:
Marco.
RobbieGong
07-12-2015, 13:25
For the record, mine (and it was some time ago) arrived without any damage to packaging. If I remember it was wrapped in layers of paper with cardboard I think as the outer packaging. As i've already said the dip on rotation mine displays is slight. That said and whilst some are happy to have a not perfectly level on rotation platter, I dont think that should be the case if at all avoidable. Again, as I've said before I can live with mine as is and as I have been doing - the sonic benefits have been obvious. BUT, given a choice I'd choose a perfectly level platter. It would be a ball ache, plus the cost and time to send a platter back for a replacement, even if that option was presented which it hasn't. Lifes too short and Mikes in control of this thread and the outcome - ultimately.
Are you saying that's a good thing? Maybe you're right. Unreasonable customer expectations that a platter should be flat. What would you say is the maximum acceptable warp?
Strange question. Why would anybody recommend it?
Indeed...
Richard, whilst your comments here have mostly been friendly and constructive, I'm getting the distinct impression that you're now using this opportunity to gloat, and as 'payback time' for when Mike criticised Funk, some time ago, on an old thread (the stuff you asked me recently to delete).
If that's untrue, then it's certainly how your most recent, rather facetious, posts are coming across. So stop it now, please, as such gloating is distasteful and will not be allowed. Two wrongs do not make a right!
Marco.
Response received from MartinT.
No "wobbly platter" issues. His platter runs true. No issues with his bearing or bearing base plate either.
He also stated that he'd be happy for me "to pass on my contentment with Mike's products and his service".
Cool. He's simply confirming what I saw with my own eyes, when I was in his house! :)
Marco.
Would have been a boring thread on TAS.
Beobloke
07-12-2015, 14:25
Cool. He's simply confirming what I saw with my own eyes, when I was in his house! :)
Marco.
Speedily corrected, good sir - I was just about to have some fun with you....:D
Speedily corrected, good sir - I was just about to have some fun with you....:D
Lol... You must be as pedantic as me... Away and sniff some diesel! :ner:
Marco.
I note that a thread has now been started on TAS: http://theaudiostandard.net/thread/1818/wobbly-etp-platter-techie?page=1&scrollTo=51922
I knew there were others who had ETP platters, but I couldn't remember who, and one of them is Mike Music... Now, he got his roughly at the same time as Martin T, so I'm pretty sure his will also be perfect :)
What we need from Mike New (if he has it) is a list of all the AoS members (and others who are well know to us) to whom he's sold an ETP platter, so we can ask them to comment here on the 'wobbliness', or otherwise, of their platters. I suspect that the 'wobblers' will be firmly in the minority...
Marco.
Oldpinkman
07-12-2015, 17:10
What we need from Mike New (if he has it) is a list of all the AoS members (and others who are well know to us) to whom he's sold an ETP platter, so we can ask them to comment here on the 'wobbliness', or otherwise, of their platters. I suspect that the 'wobblers' will be firmly in the minority...
Marco.
Marco
I take your point about my earlier post to Geoff. It has given me the opportunity to step back and look at the thread again. I don't think anybody is deliberately out to hurt Mike New, but the combined effect of this thread is not doing him any favours. And even if the score comes out with a clear majority of good platters to poor ones, I'm not sure its doing him any favours going looking for the imperfect ones and asking for a complete list. If people have issues with product they can take it up direct with the supplier - they don't need to be dragged out to declare it in open forum . Allowing people to express views openly is one thing. Requiring them to do so, when they may have been quite happy not to, is something I doubt Mike appreciates.
I am pretty sure most manufacturers wouldn't thank you for that particular initiative. And I would expect Mike to respectfully decline the request (not least because in this country he would have Data Protection issues)
I agree with Richard. Dragging up all platter purchases to see the wobbly vs flat count is pretty pointless. Mike will be aware of any complaints he has/had and will obviously deal with them if given a chance. He was quick to deal with my questions regarding his bearing and what oil I should use.
As stated in this post, some people may be happy with a slight wobble.
Some of my vinyl has a bigger wobble than on the videos and it still sounds great. It's not the same cost though.
Well, that's fine, guys, and I take your point.
However, my view is quite simply that if there's a genuine issue that needs sorting, then it should be discussed, constructively, out in the open with those who have been, or potentially could be affected, not hidden away, as nothing positive is achieved that way - and I'm sure that Mike would agree with those sentiments, as would indeed any other reasonable manufacturer who has nothing to hide.
Also, the more happy ETP platter users, who declare themselves as such, the more it pokes a stick [personally, I'd use a red-hot poker, dipped in sulphuric acid] in the eye of the shysters out there, selling rival products for the Technics, who are seeking to profit from this situation.
Anyway, we'll leave it there now then until Mike returns :)
Marco.
Or dealt with by the manufacturer with the customer who has an issue/complaint.
Mike knows how many platters he has sold, and how many complaints he has had.
We don't need a witch hunt. Mike has all he needs to investigate stress induced by machining and see if this is the issue.
If it is not, then he needs to change the packaging. As an engineer, I know where I would be looking.
If Mike finds the issue, sorts his customers complaints out, then surely all is needed is an update on this thread of his findings?
It's not a witch hunt, far from it. I certainly wouldn't allow such a thing. It's simply a discussion requesting information. To quote John, from earlier:
I’m surprised more people haven’t come forward on this issue as prompted by Marco. Information can only help here.
Now, folks, let's leave it there until Mike returns - ta! :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
07-12-2015, 20:55
Re: AoS
Unread postby Classicrock » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:40 pm
The hilarious aspect is that we have forced Marco to flip on his head again from deleting to protect any discussion to being accused of conducting a witch hunt. :lol:
Marco
I don't know why you bother paying attention to HFS.
Lol - have you just copied that from 'over the road', Chris?
S'ok, mate, it bothers me not one iota, as they ALWAYS get things arse about face! Plus, CR is just a sad Dunce sycophant, continually seeking to ingratiate himself to his 'master' (just like Jammy), so you couldn't expect anything else from him!
Anyway, let's not discuss them anymore and leave the thread open now for Mike to comment on the platter issue :)
Marco.
Surely, this is more appropriate?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_E-btjrfCR9M/TLyzgNXUZAI/AAAAAAAAAug/fb00YxI7Zmg/s1600/muppet-show.jpg
Ali Tait
07-12-2015, 21:51
:lol:
Mike_New
08-12-2015, 02:31
Which one am I?????
The one who's avoiding answering the difficult questions... ;)
Marco.
Mike_New
08-12-2015, 07:27
Hi Folks,
I think I may have an answer.
I had to wait a couple of weeks for a new delivery of material.
When it arrived I commenced making up the platter. However we had a very hot period (I never usually work in such temperatures!!) but knowing that the customer was in a hurry and already taking things apart, I commenced to rough machine them. And then to finish one for quick delivery. I guess this is the problem now that demand has fallen away I do not always keep them in stock.
I believe that maybe I was in too much of a hurry to get it finished and took bigger cuts than I should have done on the outer dia. This produces a lot of heat in this material or though it is very easy to cut.
This coupled with a hot day I think maybe was enough to make it move just a very small amount over the period during postage.
For those that are interested the material is poured like chocolate into a long tray about 500mm wide and 1M long it is then left to set and de-stress and then planed before distribution around the world. I get blanks as 340mm cut squares. The material is oil based but is not the same as acrylic so I am reliably informed. The natural colour is off white.
Incidentally when checking my own platter on a surface plate
top down it was possible to observe a discernable movement due to the fact that you are pressing on the outer rim which has no support.
On the balance of things I do not think that there was too much wrong with platter, just knee jerk actions through the cycle before I had a chance to talk.
allthingsanalogue
08-12-2015, 09:47
I wasn't actually in a rush. I ordered on October the 5th but was in no hurry.
However am glad we I know what went wrong and the various circumstances behind it.
I've drawn a line under it and am looking forward to receiving my gyro se in about 8 weeks time.
Hi Folks,
I think I may have an answer.
I had to wait a couple of weeks for a new delivery of material.
When it arrived I commenced making up the platter. However we had a very hot period (I never usually work in such temperatures!!) but knowing that the customer was in a hurry and already taking things apart, I commenced to rough machine them. And then to finish one for quick delivery. I guess this is the problem now that demand has fallen away I do not always keep them in stock.
I believe that maybe I was in too much of a hurry to get it finished and took bigger cuts than I should have done on the outer dia. This produces a lot of heat in this material or though it is very easy to cut.
This coupled with a hot day I think maybe was enough to make it move just a very small amount over the period during postage.
For those that are interested the material is poured like chocolate into a long tray about 500mm wide and 1M long it is then left to set and de-stress and then planed before distribution around the world. I get blanks as 340mm cut squares. The material is oil based but is not the same as acrylic so I am reliably informed. The natural colour is off white.
Incidentally when checking my own platter on a surface plate
top down it was possible to observe a discernable movement due to the fact that you are pressing on the outer rim which has no support.
On the balance of things I do not think that there was too much wrong with platter, just knee jerk actions through the cycle before I had a chance to talk.
Are you serious ? People have paid £550 pounds for a product that is faulty because you rushed the production and you do not offer compensation, replacement or even the slightest apology ? Really ?
Mike_New
08-12-2015, 21:49
I don't think the above qualifies for any comment by me
Well, there we have it. After 12 pages; nothing wrong:rolleyes:
Mike_New
08-12-2015, 21:58
The unfortunate thing Grant, is that it has prompted some nasty posts. as above!!
Mine wasn't nasty Mike. Just incredulous .Dunno if I'm allowed but thats my feelings. sorry.
The unfortunate thing Grant, is that it has prompted some nasty posts. as above!!
I was not being nasty at all. I am genuinely shocked by your response. The quality of your platter has been a major trending topic on three hifi forums for the past couple of days. You initially tried to palm off the issue as transit damage and then admit that you may have messed up the manufacture. You then appear to think that's ok and made no attempt to reach out to your old/existing or potential new customers.
I was trying to help you by pointing out that you probably need to react a bit more professionally - that's all.
I am genuinely shocked by your response.
+1
Hi Folks,
I think I may have an answer.
I had to wait a couple of weeks for a new delivery of material.
When it arrived I commenced making up the platter. However we had a very hot period (I never usually work in such temperatures!!) but knowing that the customer was in a hurry and already taking things apart, I commenced to rough machine them. And then to finish one for quick delivery. I guess this is the problem now that demand has fallen away I do not always keep them in stock.
I believe that maybe I was in too much of a hurry to get it finished and took bigger cuts than I should have done on the outer dia. This produces a lot of heat in this material or though it is very easy to cut.
This coupled with a hot day I think maybe was enough to make it move just a very small amount over the period during postage.
For those that are interested the material is poured like chocolate into a long tray about 500mm wide and 1M long it is then left to set and de-stress and then planed before distribution around the world. I get blanks as 340mm cut squares. The material is oil based but is not the same as acrylic so I am reliably informed. The natural colour is off white.
Incidentally when checking my own platter on a surface plate
top down it was possible to observe a discernable movement due to the fact that you are pressing on the outer rim which has no support.
On the balance of things I do not think that there was too much wrong with platter, just knee jerk actions through the cycle before I had a chance to talk.
Mike, perhaps you could reconcile for us the emphasized bit above with what you said in May.
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Mike-New-Oldpinkman_zps1whrknvl.jpg (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Andrei_nz/media/Mike-New-Oldpinkman_zps1whrknvl.jpg.html)
Well, there we have it. After 12 pages; nothing wrong:rolleyes:
You do have the driest sense of humour Grant.
Mike_New
08-12-2015, 23:41
Mine wasn't nasty Mike. Just incredulous .Dunno if I'm allowed but thats my feelings. sorry.
Hi Grant,
I was in no way referring to you,
The problem is that posts tend to overlap and/or be out of phase, and people coming in with their one-shot observations do not help.
BTH K10A
09-12-2015, 05:48
Hi Grant,
I was in no way referring to you,
The problem is that posts tend to overlap and/or be out of phase, and people coming in with their one-shot observations do not help.
As a casual observer with no axe to grind it seems to me that those posting what you refer to as "one-shot observations" are actually trying to help you to save your reputation and possibly your business.
Oldpinkman
09-12-2015, 06:33
Andre, I know you were asking for Mike to comment, but since you were referring to my nostalgic memories, I hope my observations are helpful. The process of machining a solid material causes it to stress and then relax over a reasonable time. This applies more to a plastic than most metals usually.. So to get an accurate stable final finish, you machine a rough cut, and then one or more finishing cuts. Between the cuts you let the material rest. The machined acrylic we used at PT was rested for a week between cuts.
I had not heard of a need to rest material after casting or extrusion of the original plastic block, although since we didn't cast material, it had to have rested by the time it got to us. Obviously cutting a long block into square blanks as Mike describes stresses the material, and again our blanks would have rested from that cut, if only by virtue of the regular time it took to supply to us. We purchased square blanks of clear acrylic which went that frosty colour as a result of the micro scratches of machining.
But the champagne rack resting I referred to was AFTER starting to cut the square blanks, not between the cutting of those blanks (by the plastic suppliers) and first in-house machining cut.
I hope that clarifies what it seemed to me may have been confused.
Mike_New
09-12-2015, 06:38
Hi Clark
You see the reality of the matter is that I am not owned by this forum and have an extensive user base outside it.
I appreciate all those members who do have my upgrades and contribute their ideas and support.
Neither my reputation and/or business needs "saving".
But you see your very observations "as a casual observer" would lead me to believe that you have not carefully read through all 13 pages of this thread.
Andre, I know you were asking for Mike to comment, but since you were referring to my nostalgic memories, I hope my observations are helpful. The process of machining a solid material causes it to stress and then relax over a reasonable time. This applies more to a plastic than most metals usually.. So to get an accurate stable final finish, you machine a rough cut, and then one or more finishing cuts. Between the cuts you let the material rest. The machined acrylic we used at PT was rested for a week between cuts.
I had not heard of a need to rest material after casting or extrusion of the original plastic block, although since we didn't cast material, it had to have rested by the time it got to us. Obviously cutting a long block into square blanks as Mike describes stresses the material, and again our blanks would have rested from that cut, if only by virtue of the regular time it took to supply to us. We purchased square blanks of clear acrylic which went that frosty colour as a result of the micro scratches of machining.
But the champagne rack resting I referred to was AFTER starting to cut the square blanks, not between the cutting of those blanks (by the plastic suppliers) and first in-house machining cut.
I hope that clarifies what it seemed to me may have been confused.
There is no confusion that I am aware of. What confusion are you referring to? My question was directed to Mike's two statements (not yours) so he will be better qualified to assist than you.
Oldpinkman
09-12-2015, 07:41
There is no confusion that I am aware of. What confusion are you referring to? My question was directed to Mike's two statements (not yours) so he will be better qualified to assist than you.
I see your name was a victim of predictive text on my Android. Swiftkey is a great time-saver, but a bloody liability in many ways
Apologies , types carefully, Andrei
;)
Floyddroid
09-12-2015, 08:49
Platter! Schmatter! just one step too far for me i'm afraid. Whilst i am mindful of the benefits of better power supplies etc i don't subscribe to the changing of the platter on a 1210. It ruins the whole sexy look of the turntable and is akin to Trigger's new broom i'm afraid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE
There is as much improvement to be had damping the splendid platter supplied which in my opinion is iconic. Al get me coat. :sofa:
Each to their own, but I would not define the supplied platter as "splendid".
Part of the iconic look is also the tonearm, and I believe that you changed that?
I have done both, but the sound quality is the important thing to me.
My triggers broom sound fine to me, and I am happy with it and that is all that counts. This hobby means different things to different people and that is what makes it so interesting.
Floyddroid
09-12-2015, 09:15
Yes and i have since changed the tonearm back.
Each to their own, but I would not define the supplied platter as "splendid".
Part of the iconic look is also the tonearm, and I believe that you changed that?
I have done both, but the sound quality is the important thing to me.
My triggers broom sound fine to me, and I am happy with it and that is all that counts. This hobby means different things to different people and that is what makes it so interesting.
Platter! Schmatter! just one step too far for me i'm afraid. Whilst i am mindful of the benefits of better power supplies etc i don't subscribe to the changing of the platter on a 1210. It ruins the whole sexy look of the turntable and is akin to Trigger's new broom i'm afraid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE
There is as much improvement to be had damping the splendid platter supplied which in my opinion is iconic. Al get me coat. :sofa:
Yet, the sonic effect (and its impact on the music), which the ETP platter delivers, was an integral part of the Techy, belonging to me, you RAVED about at last year's NEBO!! ;)
Marco.
Hi Mike,
Hi Clark
You see the reality of the matter is that I am not owned by this forum and have an extensive user base outside it.
I appreciate all those members who do have my upgrades and contribute their ideas and support.
Neither my reputation and/or business needs "saving".
Unless I'm reading you wrongly, that comes across very much as if you've now washed your hands of the whole affair (and the problems that have been reported with ETPs by your customers), and thus consider that AoS, and its members, are no longer of any significance to your business?
If so, we have a problem, and if not, I suggest you do what is necessary in order to convince others and I reading that what I've intimated above is not the reality!
Marco.
Mike_New
09-12-2015, 09:48
That is not what I said Marco.
I appreciate the support of all of those folks who have fitted my upgrades.
And all are signifigant to me.
Well, tell us all (spit it out) how significant it is, Mike, by explaining to all of your existing valued customers (and potential customers), how you intend to ensure that the problems reported here with the ETPs will NEVER happen again...
And what about some form of compensation for those here who've been inconvenienced, and are out of pocket, from having taken delivery of items from you that fell below their expectations?
As they say, ACTIONS, speak louder than 'words'.....
What about Dave (dmckean), who's just ordered an ETP platter from you - what are the chances his won't 'wobble' in use, or arrive 'warped'? And should that happen, what would you intend doing about it?
I'm sorry to be hard and push you on you this, Mike, but the stench of apathy from you over this situation is making me gag.
And it is not in keeping with what we demand from traders on AoS - nor is it what I've come to expect from over many years of knowing you, where you've always been extremely helpful and accommodating, and your levels of customer service, exemplary, which is not reflected in how you've handled this whole matter.
In fact, I have to be honest, it's been quite the opposite. So what gives??
Marco.
Floyddroid
09-12-2015, 11:22
Marco. My comments still stand that i made about the sound of your 1210 as the package you have. It was and likely still is a wonderful sound. However, you have taken what was once a vintage turntable to another level. Listening to mine it was pathetic by comparison. You turned you 1210 into a different beast where as i was only playing at it. You have to admit you have thrown a shit load of money at it Marco where as i gave up after the power supply and arm debacle (whch drove me nuts) hence my Trigger's new bruch analogy. I didn't judge your turntable as a Technics 1210 i judged it on how bloody fantastic it sounded as a whole with all of the things that you have added to it and done to it. To me, no matter how good the platter is it doesen't look like the one i know and love which i think can be improved upon without altering it aesthetically. just saying!
Yes and i have since changed the tonearm back.
Fair comment, mate, and no worries. Thanks for that. It just shows though, what can be achieved with some judicious tweakery and some lateral thinking! ;)
You should educate the uninitiated on this matter, who've somehow 'convinced themselves' (despite having never heard my T/T, or the effect in isolation of any of the mods I've carried out), that I've wasted my money 'kidding myself on' that what I own now (which as you say could be argued represents a culmination of my interpretation of how a turntable should sound), is fundamentally better than what I had in the beginning with the stock unit.
I don't believe, in that respect, that I've 'kidded myself on' at all, and comments such as yours (and others who've said similar things, even when they've heard the T/T outside of the context of my system), for me, proves it :)
Marco.
Here's the first MN platter I bought from David Brook.
This one was a really bad fit!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VuhZDc0yic
The second platter bought directly from Mike was an improvement but still displayed the same poor compatibility with the bearing spindle.
BTH K10A
09-12-2015, 19:06
Hi Clark
You see the reality of the matter is that I am not owned by this forum and have an extensive user base outside it.
I appreciate all those members who do have my upgrades and contribute their ideas and support.
Neither my reputation and/or business needs "saving".
But you see your very observations "as a casual observer" would lead me to believe that you have not carefully read through all 13 pages of this thread.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/04_despreneur_quotes_warren_buffett_zpsjot8qjmn.jp g (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/04_despreneur_quotes_warren_buffett_zpsjot8qjmn.jp g.html)
This needed to be said, but still no response...?
Well, tell us all (spit it out) how significant it is, Mike, by explaining to all of your existing valued customers (and potential customers), how you intend to ensure that the problems reported here with the ETPs will NEVER happen again...
And what about some form of compensation for those here who've been inconvenienced, and are out of pocket, from having taken delivery of items from you that fell below their expectations?
As they say, ACTIONS, speak louder than 'words'.....
What about Dave (dmckean), who's just ordered an ETP platter from you - what are the chances his won't 'wobble' in use, or arrive 'warped'? And should that happen, what would you intend doing about it?
I'm sorry to be hard and push you on you this, Mike, but the stench of apathy from you over this situation is making me gag.
And it is not in keeping with what we demand from traders on AoS - nor is it what I've come to expect from over many years of knowing you, where you've always been extremely helpful and accommodating, and your levels of customer service, exemplary, which is not reflected in how you've handled this whole matter.
In fact, I have to be honest, it's been quite the opposite. So what gives??
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
09-12-2015, 21:25
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/04_despreneur_quotes_warren_buffett_zpsjot8qjmn.jp g (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/04_despreneur_quotes_warren_buffett_zpsjot8qjmn.jp g.html)
To some techie 1210 hero to others techie 1210 zero. Me, I've never had any problems with Mike's stuff, just hope this can be resolved.
So do I, Andy, but sadly it looks like Mike has chosen to ignore us, and just hoping it will all go away... :(
Marco.
Audio Al
10-12-2015, 07:56
OK lets ask Mike a few more questions regarding his products
Mike
How many MN bearings have you produced ?
How many ETP platters have you produced ?
How many metal ( not sure what they are called ) platters have you produced
And how many have had problems ?
RobbieGong
10-12-2015, 08:33
OK lets ask Mike a few more questions regarding his products
Mike
How many MN bearings have you produced ?
How many ETP platters have you produced ?
How many metal ( not sure what they are called ) platters have you produced
And how many have had problems ?
With respect Al, this isnt about that. Every trader will have the odd issue, that's standard and goes with the territory. Ultimately it's about how you deal with it. For a customer that is what will always shine through and what will be the lasting memory - that's what this is about, right here.
allthingsanalogue
10-12-2015, 09:56
With respect Al, this isnt about that. Every trader will have the odd issue, that's standard and goes with the territory. Ultimately it's about how you deal with it. For a customer that is what will always shine through and what will be the lasting memory - that's what this is about, right here.
What I will say is this, while I was able to sell the deck ( with the issue being known about to the buyer ). I am seriously out of pocket, had I had paid using the normal paypal method I would have some recourse but i paid using personal payment using the send money to friends or family.
Don't see me getting a penny back, except what Dave kindly paid me for the deck without any haggling whatsover!;)
Mike_New
10-12-2015, 10:09
Hi Folks,
Firstly I am not ignoring anyone after a week of extreme temps
We had an electrical storm which would scare the s…. out of most of you in the UK and I lost a phase.
As far as Dave is concerned he has followed part of this thread and thinks it is all a bit crazy, we talk often, also another recipient is happy and has commiserated with me and I have another user about to draw on his investment fund for one.
I do not know what there is to “tell” or spit out.
The ETP Platters that I supply have been endorsed by all users, in including Marco. And a much greater number of non AoS members.
As with all products, designers and manufacturers strive to improve their products and I am no exception. To wit my adoption of expoxy bonding of my Base Plate to make it much easier to install which was applauded by all.
If I can find a way of improving my upgrades then I will do so.
In fact some 5 months ago I commenced design work on a revolutionary approach to a bearing for the SL which would allow a much more stable and registerable platform for an ETP platter or any platter for that matter.
However the interest in the SL1200 has now practically dissipated to zero so there is no likelihood of my proceeding with it.
As far as the “stench of apathy’ is concerned I would suggest that you apologize, It is not exactly justified is it??
Finally I do not live here on the Forum I do have another life and cannot always respond within milliseconds to any one post, as indeed Mr. Funk has already stated. I do however endeavor to answer peoples emails within 24 hrs
As far as the “stench of apathy’ is concerned I would suggest that you apologize, It is not exactly justified is it??
Well, Mike, I'm sorry. I can only speak as I find, and very much regrettably, I have to be honest and say that I have found your response to the genuine problems customers have reported here, about your products, to be precisely that: apathetic/resentful/dismissive - and trust me, it pains me very much to say so :(
There is nothing in your last post (full of little else but 'smoke and mirrors', IMHO) that goes even close to addressing the very real issues which exist and have been reported about your ETP platters, and as such, unless you do address them, and soon, I will have no option but to give some serious thought as to whether you will be allowed to continue to trade here.
I have to consider not only my good reputation, and that of AoS, but the best interests of our members, some of whom are your customers, who quite frankly are being treated rather shoddily.
Marco.
sq225917
10-12-2015, 16:05
jesus Mike, are you going to supply these guys with products of merchantable quality or not?
Wakefield Turntables
10-12-2015, 18:52
MIKE,
Full refund or new platter. It's simple really. There can only be a small percentage of platters that wobble, so as with all business you may have to take a hit on profits. I'd sooner take short term losses over long term gains. Loose the battle win the war. The news that you wear developing something new has peaked my interest. I'd probably spend even more money with you because I've had no issues with your products but the same can't be said for those who've recieved "wonky" platters, they'll probably have no interest in any new products you design. Why not rectify the few complaints you've recieved, move on, and then design some of the innovative products that your capable of producing?
Regards
A
:clapclapclap:
Nail > head!! :thumbsup:
Marco.
P.S I've emboldened what I consider is the most relevant and valid part of your reply.
Reading Mike's responses it appears he basically can't see there is a problem and therefore nothing to rectify.
Hi Folks,
Firstly I am not ignoring anyone after a week of extreme temps
We had an electrical storm which would scare the s…. out of most of you in the UK and I lost a phase.
As far as Dave is concerned he has followed part of this thread and thinks it is all a bit crazy, we talk often, also another recipient is happy and has commiserated with me and I have another user about to draw on his investment fund for one.
I do not know what there is to “tell” or spit out.
The ETP Platters that I supply have been endorsed by all users, in including Marco. And a much greater number of non AoS members.
As with all products, designers and manufacturers strive to improve their products and I am no exception. To wit my adoption of expoxy bonding of my Base Plate to make it much easier to install which was applauded by all.
If I can find a way of improving my upgrades then I will do so.
In fact some 5 months ago I commenced design work on a revolutionary approach to a bearing for the SL which would allow a much more stable and registerable platform for an ETP platter or any platter for that matter.
However the interest in the SL1200 has now practically dissipated to zero so there is no likelihood of my proceeding with it.
As far as the “stench of apathy’ is concerned I would suggest that you apologize, It is not exactly justified is it??
Finally I do not live here on the Forum I do have another life and cannot always respond within milliseconds to any one post, as indeed Mr. Funk has already stated. I do however endeavor to answer peoples emails within 24 hrs
Always sad to read about these things happening, unhappy Customers are never a good thing.
Agreee with taking a short term hit, karma usually pays you back...
good luck Mike.
Remember its just business mate...not personal. :)
Wakefield Turntables
10-12-2015, 20:22
I thought that post looked a little unusual.
PS Sorry for the spelling mistakes. "wear" should read "were". :doh:
BTH K10A
10-12-2015, 20:26
Reading Mike's responses it appears he basically can't see there is a problem and therefore nothing to rectify.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/customer1_zpsjak6fpng.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/customer1_zpsjak6fpng.jpg.html)
I've just read Martin T's latest post, over on TAS, which I feel that I should comment on, because it is relevant to the situation we have here. See Martin's comments here: www.theaudiostandard.net/thread/1818/wobbly-etp-platter-techie?page=3
Whilst I agree 110% with all the positive things he's said about Mike, and the sonic efficacy of the ETP platter (which was never in question), as I too own an ETP that is functionally perfect (and aesthetically to my satisfaction), which I'm delighted with, he's completely missing the point of why all this has kicked off.
And the point is that there are very real (not imagined) issues with *some* ETP platters members here have taken delivery of, all of which Mike was told about, and given a chance to address, BEFORE they were publicised on the open forum.
Martin, if you're reading this thread, please play the video Adam posted earlier, shown below (certainly not for any mischievous intent), but simply to highlight the genuine problem he had with the worst of two ETP platters he received:
Here's the first MN platter I bought from David Brook.
This one was a really bad fit!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VuhZDc0yic
The second platter bought directly from Mike was an improvement but still displayed the same poor compatibility with the bearing spindle.
Now, Adam's not daft, and so will have fitted the platter correctly (including the bearing underneath), as per the instructions, so what the heck is going on causing it to 'rock' like that??
And if your ETP platter had arrived in that condition, would you have accepted it? Worse, if you had complained and the matter was seemingly being swept under the carpet by the manufacturer (or not dealt with correctly to your satisfaction), what would you do - perhaps bring it to the attention of others?
Well, that's all that is happening here - and all we're asking of Mike is to do the right thing and properly resolve the issues/compensate ALL those who have experienced genuine problems with their ETP platters, promise he'll take the necessary steps to ensure it doesn't happen again, and then we can all move on.
I don't think that's unfair or unacceptable in any way, or that any 'witch hunt' is being conducted here, or that Mike is being unfairly treated. Far from it. I'm cringing for him every time I see proof of sub-standard examples of platters he's sold to members of AoS, and so am simply lost for words why he doesn't seem to recognise that or want to do anything about it! :confused:
I can assure everyone that I detest all this negativity, and would far rather be discussing nice things, but not at the expense of ignoring what I consider are real issues that need tackled. Therefore, we await Mike responding to and resolving this matter, ASAP, so that the whole sorry episode can be brought to a satisfactory close.
Marco.
this.
MIKE,
Full refund or new platter. It's simple really. There can only be a small percentage of platters that wobble, so as with all business you may have to take a hit on profits. I'd sooner take short term losses over long term gains. Loose the battle win the war. The news that you wear developing something new has peaked my interest. I'd probably spend even more money with you because I've had no issues with your products but the same can't be said for those who've recieved "wonky" platters, they'll probably have no interest in any new products you design. Why not rectify the few complaints you've recieved, move on, and then design some of the innovative products that your capable of producing?
Regards
A
Mike_New
10-12-2015, 22:22
but as it is Mike insisted on a private payment, so yeah, totallhad I had paid using the normal paypal method I would have some recourse y stuffed!
;)
Andrew
I would respectfully remind you that I did not insist on a private payment.
I did ask you to mark the transfer as private or personal. I do this for all my payments as it reduces the amount I have to pay.
So I would ask that you correct your statement ASAP
You did not give me any chance to enter into a dialogue with you. and the first I knew of what you were doing was on AOS!!!!! Otherwise I would have made alternative arrangements with you.
Is that all you have to say, Mike?
Marco.
allthingsanalogue
10-12-2015, 23:27
Andrew
I would respectfully remind you that I did not insist on a private payment.
I did ask you to mark the transfer as private or personal. I do this for all my payments as it reduces the amount I have to pay.
So I would ask that you correct your statement ASAP
I've ediited to make it more technically correct but it was still the send money to friends or family section that I used on both occasions, maybe this was the wrong section on paypal??
I've said nothing nasty to you or about you and as I've said many times I merely asked advice (knowingly that you were probably asleep at that time with the time difference).
This seemed to be the best place to ask advice as I'd never heard of your products untill I joined AoS and many people here use your upgrades and more users here of the ETP than anwhere else I know of.
Not that I'm a frequent visitor of the Naim forum for example but often when someone has a problem this is always the first port of call, this maybe hasty and a call to the manufacture would have been best but however the mods or staff would never call someone an immature college kid so I do think that is a bit unfair.
That's all I can really say.
Ok, I've just phoned Mike in Australia (yes, that's the sort of effort I go to, in order to try and sort things out properly for people! :doh:), and we've had a chat, the outcome of which I will outline here in detail tomorrow, as right now it's bed time!
The bottom line, however, is that he will do his best to resolve any issues with his ETP platters. Exactly how that will happen, I will explain tomorrow.
Marco.
allthingsanalogue
11-12-2015, 00:41
Ok, I've just phoned Mike in Australia (yes, that's the sort of effort I go to, in order to try and sort things out properly for people! :doh:), and we've had a chat, the outcome of which I will outline here in detail tomorrow, as right now it's bed time!
The bottom line, however, is that he will do his best to resolve any issues with his ETP platters. Exactly how that will happen, I will explain tomorrow.
Marco.
Not that it effects me now but like to say :hifive:
Mike_New
11-12-2015, 00:48
Marco,
I did not at any time use the term “defective platters” in our conversation this is your interpretation and is incorrect.
What I did say was that if after so long, a few people thought that they had a possible problem with their platters. Then I would consider what could be done if I still had the facilities to do so. Considering that I am no longer producing my upgrade products as a result of the present zero interest in the SL1200 from any new potential customers.
Yup, ok, that's cool. We shall go forward on that basis. See my edit!
Right, I really must hit the sack now, people... :goodnight:
Marco.
{Unnecessary and unconstructive remarks removed by ADMIN}
Mike_New
11-12-2015, 04:45
{Response to above also removed by ADMIN}
Andrei, once others and you have read this post, I'm going to delete yours, and Mike's response to it, as Andrew is not interested in going down any route of litigation, so what you've written is completely out of step with how we're now going to be moving forward, together, in a positive way with all of this.
Therefore, in the light of that statement, please do not make any further comments of a negative nature, as they will also be removed. Let's all try and move on now from this unfortunate incident and concentrate on positive matters - it's nearly Christmas, so strap a SMILE onto your chops, folks! :) :santa:
After I've finished my morning cappuccino and croissant, and read through my emails, I will be summing up this discussion with details of how Mike would like to try and resolve any issues users have with his platters, and then the matter will be put to bed.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-12-2015, 09:36
Andrei, once others and you have read this post, I'm going to delete yours, and Mike's response to it (including this one), as Andrew is not interested in going down any route of litigation, so what you've written is completely out of step with how we're now going to be moving forward, together, in a positive way with all of this.
Therefore, in the light of that statement, please do not make any further comments of a negative nature, as they will also be removed. Let's all try and move on now from this unfortunate incident and concentrate on positive matters - it's nearly Christmas, so glue a SMILE onto your chops, folks! :) :santa:
After I've finished my morning cappuccino and croissant, and read through my emails, I will be summing up this discussion with details of how Mike would like to try and resolve any issues users have with his platters, and then the matter will be put to bed.
Marco.
Marco, I know it is your forum, and running it isn't easy, and moderation is necessary, but randomly deleted posts do make for a very disjointed thread when subsequently reading them. Can I suggest you leave something like "deleted by moderators" at the very least. It was a complete thread evaporating that started this one off.
BTW - somewhere recently Mike referred to "as Mr Funk said" (meaning me). I met the real Mr Funk yesterday and told him a little of this. His only comment was "Poor Mike" . All other, unattributed comments on this forum are mine - not Arthurs.
Marco, I know it is your forum, and running it isn't easy, and moderation is necessary, but randomly deleted posts do make for a very disjointed thread when subsequently reading them. Can I suggest you leave something like "deleted by moderators" at the very least. It was a complete thread evaporating that started this one off.
Damn right it isn't, mate. It's almost a full-time job, I can assure you!!
I mean, I was on the phone to Mike, in Australia, at midnight last night, FFS, trying to sort this lot out....! I wish some folk would understand the time it takes running this place to the standards I insist upon, make some allowances accordingly, and appreciate what they have here! ;)
So, to all members of our community (and this really refers to something else): please bear that in mind when you think that YOU 'deserve' to have whatever it is you want done, when YOU want it done, rather than when it can be conveniently slotted into the allotted work schedule. In future, try not to be so selfish.
Furthermore, it's so easy to sit back and criticise, when it's not you who ultimately has the responsibility of making the decisions, which realistically are best for AoS. But yes, Richard, I will do what you have asked :)
Marco.
If it was anything of mine, and if it was agreed there was a fault I'd have given the option of a refund on the spot.
QC issues can happen, especially if you outsource manufacturing, people could understand that I think?
If the Customer "could live with" the problem, I'd have suggested keeping the platter and get an agreed upon discount.
Mud sticks and you really dont want this kind of thing dragging on, so good Mike's came up with a solution.
If it was anything of mine, and if it was agreed there was a fault I'd have given the option of a refund on the spot.
QC issues can happen, especially if you outsource manufacturing, people could understand that I think?
If the Customer "could live with" the problem, I'd have suggested keeping the platter and get an agreed upon discount.
Yes, I think that's fair. However, I would like state that, to my knowledge, Mike has always refunded customers in such circumstances, when he's been given an opportunity to do so. Whatever else he's been guilty of here, it's not dishonesty or an unwillingness to refund people who deserve to be refunded.
Mud sticks and you really dont want this kind of thing dragging on, so good Mike's came up with a solution.
Indeed, and with that in mind, I'm going to close this thread now to prevent precisely that, and to allow me to write (and post) my summary here, and then put the whole matter to bed :)
Marco.
Ok, before I outline the procedure required for Mike to examine any ETP platters that members here may have issues with, and would like examining, I think the following needs saying....
On AoS, no matter who you are (trade or non-trade), your opinions, and actions (or lack thereof), as demonstrated within topics of discussion, will always be open to receiving constructive criticism. The fact is, as I've said before, censorship is never DELIBERATELY practiced here, nor is any form of favouritism - and what's happened over the last few days should be ample proof of that!
Yes, sometimes, as we're only human, we will make mistakes and/or take the wrong decisions (usually in the heat of the moment when many other things are happening, and a quick judgement call is required), and our actions taken then could mistakenly be perceived as censorship, or when matters are examined too superficially by those not in full possession of the facts.
Therefore, it's important that everyone here is aware of that, and also that there are NO COSY HIDING PLACES here, for anyone to get away with underhand or dishonest behaviour, or any shirking in handling awkward situations, deliberately carried out by the management team. If controversial matters need to be discussed or difficult decisions taken by the team, regarding whatever we believe is for the greater good of AoS, then that is precisely what will happen - and we will tackle it head on!
Now this is the important bit, when it comes to registered traders:
As much as any members or the management team value your input, rate or enjoy your products, or like you as a person and think you're the greatest guy in the world, the £50 fee you've paid does NOT (and never will do) buy either your business practices or your products, or you yourself favouritism or 'protection' from justified scrutiny, and with it if necessary, constructive criticism of any or all of that.
AoS is quite different from other audio forums for many reasons, and an important one of them is that we seek to attain the highest standards, both in terms of contributions from members (outside of when we're just enjoying ourselves and having a laugh), in always showing politeness and respect to be shown to our fellow members, and in the quality, integrity and customer-focussed nature of any businesses we allow to trade here - and any manufacturer or dealer who advertises their products for sale to the community who doesn't live up to those expectations, *will* sooner or later be subject to said scrutiny or criticism, as outlined above.
At the end of the day, I'd rather have a small, dedicated group of traders here who are honest, genuinely nice guys, and 'switched onto the AoS way', as it were, and most importantly, who pride themselves on being 100% customer-focussed, than 100s of selfish parasites, simply taking advantage of our Google rankings, to make a fast buck or boost their egos. At the end of the day, I don't need this forum to make money (only pay its bills), so I can pick and chose who gets to trade here! ;)
Apart from anything else, if sellers are effectively 'vetted' in that way, then in the long run, it will only be of distinct advantage to our membership, when buying products from any of our registered traders, as people can then be virtually guaranteed that they're dealing with one of the industry's 'good guys': enthusiasts who are in the game for the RIGHT REASONS (essentially givers, not just takers), and who are not selling hi-fi equipment simply to make money, although everyone is of course entitled to earn an honest living.
Ok, having dealt with that now, let's get move onto the MN ETP platter situation, which I will put into a separate post. Before I do that, I'd just like to wish Mike all the best for the future (as he's still a valued member here, whether he continues selling his Technics T/T modifications or not), and that I hope his health improves soon.
Marco.
Having chatted with Mike last night, I can confirm one thing is for sure, and that is that his heart is in the right place, and that he doesn't mean to come across as dismissive or arrogant. He's currently a 76-year old man with health problems, who lives on the other side of the world from us in the UK, not someone who is 'married' to his mobile phone or computer, and as such isn't always in a position to offer the quickest of replies to members' queries.
Significantly also, as interest in modifications for the SL-1200/1210 has all but dried up (and because he's not in the best of health either), Mike has unfortunately started to wind down his manufacturing operations, putting him in a position now where it's not as easy to do the work he used to. Consequently, although he wants to help resolve any issues with ETP platters and/or bearings, which members here may have, it will be carried out to the best of his abilities, but with no 100% guarantee that any 'perfect fix' will be possible.
Whilst I accept that isn't exactly ideal, given the circumstances, however, I consider it as understandable and fair.
Mike has also said that if anyone who owns an ETP platter (no matter when it was purchased), which they consider has an issue that they would like him to examine (and hopefully resolve), he will pay HALF of the RETURN shipping costs to Australia (and any custom charges that might be incurred by the sender), required to send the items to him for inspection. I also think this is fair, given that in some cases, people have had their platters for over a year or more.
Now, if you wish to take Mike up on his offer, then the procedure is to send him a PM, where negotiations will then take place from there. However, no such discussions will be entered into on the open forum. Therefore, I will leave those here who wish to do that, to carry on, and hopefully they will obtain a positive result, and then come back and tell us all about it! :)
The fact is, praise will always be given here, when it's due, and the same applies when it comes to constructive criticism.
As ever though in any transaction, COURTESY and RESPECT is a two-way procedure, played out by both parties: the buyer and seller. On AoS, we're merely the facilitators for the transaction itself, and exist simply to ensure that fair play is carried out from all concerned, and that the standards of behaviour we expect here from both buyers and sellers are strictly adhered to.
That's it folks - we move onwards and upwards! :cool:
Marco.
[EDIT: just an addition from Mike]:
Just to say, I haven't offered to cover customs charges in either direction.
It would have been stupid of me to do so as assessed amounts can vary considerably from country to country and depending on the assessing officer.
It would be the responsibility of the sender to obtain a returned goods documentation. Secondly I would need confirmation of duties payable and this would cause problems. Also there may be duties levied into Australia, depending on how the package is defined, which would not be under my control.
I did say that I would pay for the return postage.
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