Croft 25RSR Linestage anyone?

[mathewf]

Hi,

I currently have a Croft 25RS, and very nice it is too. I'm thinking of upgrading to the 25RSR Linestage as I tend to listen to more digital stuff these days. Anyone tried it?

[The Black Adder]

I didn't know of the 25RSR... I presume it's a dual regulated, dual separate PSU version?

[mathewf]

Yes, it's a dual box, linestage only version with regulation, same as RS. It has better caps and a few other bits I believe. You also have a choice of valves between 12BH7 and 6SL7 which sound a little fuller apparently. Because the caps are larger I'm told Glenn can only do it as a linestage, not enough room in the phono stage version.

[The Black Adder]

Hi Mathew Ah, I see.

I can see that actually.. In the current boxes there would be hardly any space for the phono stage. If I was you, I'd go for the 6SL7 version. I've been through the basic, 25 and 25R and now use a heavily upgraded Epoch Elite.

The 6SL7's sound superb and a superb improvement over the likes of the ECC83 versions.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The 6SL7's sound superb and a superb improvement over the likes of the ECC83 versions.

Yep +1 I'd agree with this. Whilst a set of NOS Mullard ECC83's sound fantastic they dont sound as good as the more muscular presentation of the 6SL7's. I'm in the process of going Microbasic to Mega Croft Epoch and can validate that the Croft's seems to get better the further up the tree you go.

[hifi_dave]

It's a truly wonderful pre-amp, right up there with the very, very best but at a realistic price. I have sold a couple to very pleased customers.

[mathewf]

Thanks Dave. The 25RS is about as good a preamp as I've heard so I'd assume the RSR isn't too shabby either. Could I ask whether your customers went with the the 12BH7 or 6SL7 configuration?

[DSJR]

Please forgive the 'Doc' quote, but it's my current experience that the best preamp is actually none at all and adding loads of gubbins can make things slightly worse. Having said that, as you go up the Croft preamp range, the sonic effect of the preamp being there, do become more and more benign and if the thing does add anything at all, it's to draw your attention to the often wonderful and subtle things going on right in the back of the mix. In fairness though, the extra 'gubbins' in an R and RS preamp is in the power supply I think and not in the signal path.

Forgive me for being a bit of a curmudgeon, but valves changing the tone? I know they do, but that means that the warmest sounding ones in this circuit are actually very coloured and not strictly 'HiFi' in the purest sense of not adding or taking away anything from the signal going through them, as the extra supplies in Glenns better preamps make the bass far more tactile even with standard line valves. Obviously, subjective personal opinion comes in here and I sincerely apologise for saying it. I had enough sonic crap from ARC valve-based preamps, even the most revered ones of the 80's and 90's (SP8, SP10, SP11, LS15 and 25 and also the early Reference models) added a warm and rosy glow to the sources feeding them. This added colour and warmth sort-of balanced the pre sliding-bias Krell power amps, which became harsh for a year or three I remember, but neutral in the proper sense? Absolutely not!

[mathewf]

Hi Dave (R),

I have to say I agree with everything you say. I tend to use neutral sounding valves, the best valve for me is the one you can't hear. That's my puzzle over whether to go with the BH7s or the SL7s - I know how to line up a Croft RS with a 12BH7 configuration, but advice so far points to the unknown world of the 6SL7.

[The Black Adder]

Plenty of excellent advice here regarding 6SL7's - I for one have had quite a few and Marco has experimented even more with them.

[The Black Adder]

Please forgive the 'Doc' quote, but it's my current experience that the best preamp is actually none at all and adding loads of gubbins can make things slightly worse. Having said that, as you go up the Croft preamp range, the sonic effect of the preamp being there, do become more and more benign and if the thing does add anything at all, it's to draw your attention to the often wonderful and subtle things going on right in the back of the mix. In fairness though, the extra 'gubbins' in an R and RS preamp is in the power supply I think and not in the signal path.

Forgive me for being a bit of a curmudgeon, but valves changing the tone? I know they do, but that means that the warmest sounding ones in this circuit are actually very coloured and not strictly 'HiFi' in the purest sense of not adding or taking away anything from the signal going through them, as the extra supplies in Glenns better preamps make the bass far more tactile even with standard line valves. Obviously, subjective personal opinion comes in here and I sincerely apologise for saying it. I had enough sonic crap from ARC valve-based preamps, even the most revered ones of the 80's and 90's (SP8, SP10, SP11, LS15 and 25 and also the early Reference models) added a warm and rosy glow to the sources feeding them. This added colour and warmth sort-of balanced the pre sliding-bias Krell power amps, which became harsh for a year or three I remember, but neutral in the proper sense? Absolutely not!

We forgive you... :D

In bold, yes... you are correct. Inside mine for example looks quite complicated but it's mainly the external PSU parts/wiring that make it look like it. The signal paths are just as short and simple as they ever were.

Never heard ARC preamps. The thing is, Glenn really knows his onions when it comes down to preamps. I thought the basic was bloody good. I also compared an S&B TVC passive with the 25 and 25R - No better or worse really, it simply came down to a different presentation.

[hifi_dave]

Thanks Dave. The 25RS is about as good a preamp as I've heard so I'd assume the RSR isn't too shabby either. Could I ask whether your customers went with the the 12BH7 or 6SL7 configuration?

Oooops. My mistake. Blame it on age and/or the drugs.

I actually sold the 25RS LS which is a sooper, dooper line version of the 25RS. More advanced circuit, better caps, Eichmann socket and a choice of B9A or Octal valves. Absolutely superb and about as good as you can get. Price is £2800.

The 25 RSR was a one off and not as advanced as the 25RS LS.