Interesting radio piece about confirmation bias... [Archive]

PaulStewart

28-11-2015, 06:45

It's a very powerful phenomenon! E.G. Mains cables do not and can not have any effect whatsoever on the performance of a hifi (or anything else for that matter) and yet many people report hearing differences... the mind can very readily play tricks on us sometimes ;)

That's fine. I don't test them as that would be ludicrous and akin to dropping bricks forever in the expectation that some of them float in air...
I'll repeat that it is 100% certain that any perceived change in sound from a mains cable is 100% imagined and leave it at that.... over and out :)

Jez as someone who has studied both physics and psychology, I would say that some minds, while great at things like engineering, are not capable of the "leaps of faith" that make true scientists. To quote from Spectrum,mthe highly respected magazine of the IEEE, the largest technicians and engineers organisation in the world.

"Science is about understanding the origins, nature, and behavior of the universe and all it contains; engineering is about solving problems by rearranging the stuff of the world to make new things. Conflating these separate objectives leads to uninformed opinions, which in turn can delay or misdirect management, effort, and resources".

To paraphrase what I said elswhere, if a phenomena is reported by a number of people, then assume it's right and find out why, don't dismiss it 'cos it does not fit in with your model of the universe. That is backward thinking and anti progress. Do you know how to measure what MAY be happening in a mains cable at a quatum level? If you do you should be at CERN not scratching a living moddifiying and repairing amps.

My best advice to both you and Bob is close your mouths and open your minds, don't constatly nay say those whose subjective observations disagree with the theory you follow. Many scientific facts, held as true by learned men have been debunked. Stephen Hawkins tutor was Fred Hoyle, who believed in the then widely held "Steady state" theory of the universe. His upstart student, came along and proved the "Big Bang" and smashed this scienfific proof utterly.

Just because you can't measure a phenomenon, it doesen't mean it's not there, find a new way to measure it.

BTW, I have no idea whether anything is happening in mains cables at a quatum level, this is just an example of a possibility. Until this year particle physicists were convinced that electrons had a fuzzy surface, we now know that they are the smoothest, most spherical objects in the universe. Theories, some long held, bite the dust every day.

brian2957

28-11-2015, 07:28

'Golden' ears? :hmm:

Nope . I don't feel the need to tell you or anyone else what they can hear . I merely use my own ears to assess changes in my own system .

Oldpinkman

28-11-2015, 08:34

I don't think groping for scientific explanations, with or without wandering off spuriously into quantum physics, is needed.

This is the new science of marketing. If you're happy buying em, you can bet there will be somebody happy selling em to you. So everybody's happy and there is nothing to debate.

My son excels at this "pay lots cos it makes me feel good". He is 21 in December, and would like a mont blanc 6 credit card wallet. Don't cheat by googling it. How much for a regular (smart) designer leather wallet?

Light Dependant Resistor

28-11-2015, 08:43

A very good way of assessing changes is to use a very good
recording device, which works for me. You can then play the
same piece recorded prior to, and after the change.

For others, many tens of thousands of pounds of measuring equipment
appealing to the visual sense, but not educating the aural, seems to
get in the ballpark.

I have been assessing recently a tiny change to a emitter follower
in a new circuit, getting the right value of resistance and capacitance on
a transistors emitter, and comparing changes. It is easy to hear, what is right
and not so right. For instance a change of 500 ohms to 300 ohms
or 330nf to 430nf, easy peasy, even my dog hears it.

So disagree entirely, start using a decent recording device and catalogue
changes, or toast your eyes with scopes if that is how you do it, it will lead
to the conclusion almost everything makes a difference in audio.
Maybe not where you parked the car the night before.:)

Cheers / Chris

brian2957

28-11-2015, 09:00

''almost everything makes a difference in audio. ''

Very true Chris . Sometimes better , sometimes worse , but a difference nonetheless :)

awkwardbydesign

28-11-2015, 09:39

It's a very powerful phenomenon! E.G. Mains cables do and can have an effect on the performance of a hifi (or anything else for that matter) and yet many people report never hearing differences... the mind can very readily play tricks on us sometimes ;)
ftfy. :D
Agreed, confirmation bias IS powerful.

Macca

28-11-2015, 09:48

lurcher

28-11-2015, 10:05

Its only one example of a antidote, but I will give it anyway, where I just dont see how confirmation bias could be the cause. The DC supply I make for a MDAC, is an easy build, but the only bit that is a pain is making up the mini-din connector. Previously I used 1.6a wire three way to several of the 9 pins in the din. Then I found a company who would make them up for me. I jumped at the chance, the build got simpler, it was all good. But then at the end of the build, I plug it into the system and make sure it all works. it worked but didnt sound right. Compare to a older build, yep that sounds good. Unsolder new output lead, make up one as before, yep, it sounds good again. Only difference is the wire in the 1.5M lead. I used three strands of 1.6A wire, they used 9 strands of 0.8A wire. The DAC only draws 300ma or so.I still have the box of made up cables that I never used.

And no, I dont sadly have anything that will let me interpret a recording of the two cases in any way that will explain what I heard. Wish I could.

PaulStewart

28-11-2015, 10:45

I don't think groping for scientific explanations, with or without wandering off spuriously into quantum physics, is needed.

Richard, as ever you utterly fail to grasp the point, it's only by exploring for new explanations of observed phenonoma that science/audio/anything progresses. It must me really sad to be stuck with your world view, sadly you're not the first accountant I've come across with similar views.

walpurgis

28-11-2015, 11:28

Nope . I don't feel the need to tell you or anyone else what they can hear . I merely use my own ears to assess changes in my own system .

Exactly what I do.

awkwardbydesign

28-11-2015, 12:55

Stephen Hawkins tutor was Fred Hoyle, who believed in the then widely held "Steady state" theory of the universe. His upstart student, came along and proved the "Big Bang" and smashed this scienfific proof utterly.

And yet, now there is serious questioning of that theory. The "big" bang may be just one in a series of middling bangs; a kind of steady state of bangs? :D
Besides, Hoyle wrote much more interesting science fiction stories than Hawking.

struth

28-11-2015, 13:15

I dont have golden ears either but. .. If i here a difference then I do.. Im not especially interested in psychology of why. I heard a big difference when connecting my system through a regenerator so I dont see why mains cables shouldnt improve some systems for some folk. Just because you dont hear it or dont want to hear it whiich can be the same thing sometimes doesnt mean its case closed for everyone else. Its pretty arrogant to say such things.....

Reminds me of doctors who when their tests show nothing then your complaint must be all in the mind... Lazy Doctoring that is!

PaulStewart

28-11-2015, 13:23

And yet, now there is serious questioning of that theory. The "big" bang may be just one in a series of middling bangs; a kind of steady state of bangs.

Hardly an unchanging steady state, but interesting thought, but the fact is that continual chalkenge is necessary for progress.

Besides, Hoyle wrote much more interesting science fiction stories than Hawking.

Indeed he did, I have just dug my dusty first editions of A for Andromeda and The Big Pull outbof my storage unit as I have a long weekend coming up and feel like a re-read :)

Marco

28-11-2015, 13:35

Your whole post is spot on, Paul, but this veritably hits the nail on the proverbial head:

To paraphrase what I said elswhere, if a phenomena is reported by a number of people, then assume it's right and find out why, don't dismiss it 'cos it does not fit in with your model of the universe. That is backward thinking and anti progress.

Too bloody right. See my sig.. ;)

There are too many folk [binary thinkers] around, who's attitude is (seemingly irreversibly) ruled by their narrow-minded and superficial-thinking scientific dogma.

Marco.

Macca

28-11-2015, 13:49

Have to say I think Jez does make a good point about the tendency - which is understandable - for us to spend money on upgrades we can do ourselves - like swapping in a new lead or interconnect - rather than spend it on something that would make perhaps a bigger/actual improvement in sound quality (as opposed to a change we just prefer) but will involve some hassle e.g pimping the amplifiers power supply, or as Bob (Cloth Ears) said on another thread - spend it instead on some better speakers.

Of course if you have already maxed out in those areas then you might well need somewhere else to go.

Arkless Electronics

28-11-2015, 14:12

Marco

28-11-2015, 14:13

My son excels at this "pay lots cos it makes me feel good". He is 21 in December, and would like a mont blanc 6 credit card wallet. Don't cheat by googling it. How much for a regular (smart) designer leather wallet?

Good luck with that one! ;)

Thing is, when it comes to what I like to call 'mains leads properly designed for hi-fi purposes' (as I detest the term 'audiophile mains leads' because it has all the wrong connotations), you *don't* have to pay 'foo prices' for something that, to anyone who possesses a decent system, an open-mind, reasonable hearing acuity and the ability to ultimately trust their senses, will (sonically) comfortably outperform a bog-standard 'kettle lead'.

When I was in France last year I bought some heavy-duty copper 6 mm² Nexans mains cable from a small DIY store, for roughly £3 per metre, and this year brought back some for Gaz and Brian to try (as they heard me raving about it), which I fitted with some decent and not stupidly priced Wattgate IECs on the end. I think they were £15. I don't use mains plugs, as my mains leads are hard-wired to a dedicated supply. However, a decent 13A plug (MK) costs about £4.

So for, say, a 2m mains lead, using the Nexans cable, and fitted with above connectors, you're looking at about £25. And trust me, unless your system is broken and/or you just *don't want* to entertain the notion that such things can make a difference, due to deeply-ingrained objectivist dogma, will outperform a bog-standard 'kettle lead'.

Hey, for £25, what's to lose? Most of you will spend at least that much on beer or wine at a weekend (probably more, knowing some of the alchies on here :eyebrows:). So why not give it a go and make one?

Marco.

Marco

28-11-2015, 14:15

Have to say I think Jez does make a good point about the tendency - which is understandable - for us to spend money on upgrades we can do ourselves - like swapping in a new lead or interconnect - rather than spend it on something that would make perhaps a bigger/actual improvement in sound quality (as opposed to a change we just prefer) but will involve some hassle e.g pimping the amplifiers power supply...

Some of us do BOTH (as every part of assembling a system matters), to significant sonic effect! ;)

Marco.

Oldpinkman

28-11-2015, 14:36

Good luck with that one! ;)

Hey, for £25, what's to lose? Most of you will spend that much on beer or wine at a weekend. So why not give it a go and make one? :)

Marco.

Bloody site cheaper than that bloody wallet, that's for sure. £205 (with free postage!) http://www.montblanc.com/en-gb/collection/leather/wallets/113215-montblanc-sartorial-wallet-6cc.html

If it works for you Marco, that's a great result. It didnt work for me. And I am not so troubled by the loss that I feel a need to do anything about it.

With both the wallet and the mains lead - if its worth it to the person paying for it, then that's all that matters. We all have different ideas of perceived value. And happily, live in a fairly free world where we can exercise choice :cool:

Marco

28-11-2015, 14:45

Hear, hear!! :clap:

Marco.

PaulStewart

28-11-2015, 14:46

Think about it this way, how come the 1 meter or so of cable between the unit and the wall socket should be so special? What about all the cable behind the skirting board going to the socket? and the cable before that? what about the hundreds of meters of fine wire in the transformers primary? Then what about the contacts in the switches both in the unit and the mains socket? and the usually riveted connections on them and the fuse holder? Well it just happens that the "audiophile" mains cable is the only bit which is bought as an object alleged to be an upgrade and which requires no effort or knowledge beyond plugging it in....

Exactly the point, so many people have reported that they can hear this difference, that it has become a "statistical universe" far to large to ignore. In any test, the placebo effect only works in a percentage of cases. It now comes down to us to find out why this is so, not dismiss it as outside our model of the universe.

As Marco says some of us do more than just swap leads, I regularly perform upgrades, sometimes as a consultant to the manufacturer. As far as mains supply is concerned, I have a clean filtered spur from the consumer unit using unswitched sockets, yet even with this advantage, I can hear the improvement that, audio quality mains leads make.

Marco

28-11-2015, 14:52

Exactly the point, so many people have reported that they can hear this difference, that it has become a "statistical universe" far to large to ignore.

Exactly the point, again.

Marco.

cloth-ears

28-11-2015, 15:25

Jez as someone who has studied both physics and psychology, I would say that some minds, while great at things like engineering, are not capable of the "leaps of faith" that make true scientists. To quote from Spectrum,mthe highly respected magazine of the IEEE, the largest technicians and engineers organisation in the world.

"Science is about understanding the origins, nature, and behavior of the universe and all it contains; engineering is about solving problems by rearranging the stuff of the world to make new things. Conflating these separate objectives leads to uninformed opinions, which in turn can delay or misdirect management, effort, and resources".

To paraphrase what I said elswhere, if a phenomena is reported by a number of people, then assume it's right and find out why, don't dismiss it 'cos it does not fit in with your model of the universe. That is backward thinking and anti progress. Do you know how to measure what MAY be happening in a mains cable at a quatum level? If you do you should be at CERN not scratching a living moddifiying and repairing amps.

My best advice to both you and Bob is close your mouths and open your minds, don't constatly nay say those whose subjective observations disagree with the theory you follow. Many scientific facts, held as true by learned men have been debunked. Stephen Hawkins tutor was Fred Hoyle, who believed in the then widely held "Steady state" theory of the universe. His upstart student, came along and proved the "Big Bang" and smashed this scienfific proof utterly.

Just because you can't measure a phenomenon, it doesen't mean it's not there, find a new way to measure it.

BTW, I have no idea whether anything is happening in mains cables at a quatum level, this is just an example of a possibility. Until this year particle physicists were convinced that electrons had a fuzzy surface, we now know that they are the smoothest, most spherical objects in the universe. Theories, some long held, bite the dust every day.

Not really sure why you choose to attack people on a personal level just because they don’t agree with you. It’s a mystery to me. For a person who claims to have studied psychology you should know better. And telling me to keep my mouth shut is a tad childish. If you don’t agree with someone just say so and perhaps put forward an intelligent reason why.

Using fluid theories such as the big bang or quantum mechanics to bolster electro mechanical facts is quite ridiculous. It would be like me saying that at one time people thought the earth was flat therefore any fact you put forward is not really a fact, so I win.

If a cable makes a big difference to the tonal balance of an amplifier then I would be looking for a design problem within the amplifier. I know of one amplifier that if used with the “wrong” cables starts to oscillate out of control. Not every amplifier is well designed; some are very susceptible to even minor changes in capacitance. On the other hand, some amplifiers are so well designed that they are impervious to such cable characteristics. Obviously somewhere between the good and the bad there are many others that react to a greater or lesser extent. This may go some way close as to explaining why some people can perceive a difference and others can’t.

If you disagree with me then try and say so without resorting to rudeness. If you have a better alternative I would be more than happy to hear it

Marco

28-11-2015, 15:29

Here's the Nexan's mains cable in question, should anyone wish to try it: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/19010.pdf

Bit better than the painfully thin, weedy stuff found in your average 'kettle lead' - and cheap as chips, too! ;)

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

28-11-2015, 15:38

Exactly the point, so many people have reported that they can hear this difference, that it has become a "statistical universe" far to large to ignore. In any test, the placebo effect only works in a percentage of cases. It now comes down to us to find out why this is so, not dismiss it as outside our model of the universe.

As Marco says some of us do more than just swap leads, I regularly perform upgrades, sometimes as a consultant to the manufacturer. As far as mains supply is concerned, I have a clean filtered spur from the consumer unit using unswitched sockets, yet even with this advantage, I can hear the improvement that, audio quality mains leads make.

Statistically many also report not hearing a difference... A "herd mentality" tends to prevail in these sort of things and when certain phenomena are "perceived" by some, especially if they are vociferous in their view and a good communicator, it tends to spread virally, a "meme" if you like. Look at the way feinting can happen to several people after the first feints, even though there is nothing wrong with them (a case of this happened in the last few weeks in a U.K school). Or the way that religious "phenomena" can spread amongst those who believe (claiming to have seen the virgin Mary appear by a certain tree etc etc). It's the same with mains cables. People want to believe and expectation bias, plus expected peer approval etc does the rest. The mind is a very powerful source of expectation and placebo effect can be so powerful that people who have been hypnotised and told that they have been burnt by cigarette ends have actually developed blisters! I'm sure that in most cases people who claim to hear differences in mains cables genuinely believe that they have indeed heard it... and it's very likely that the capability of the human mind to fool us, to actually react to a placebo, is so strong that these people actually DO hear a difference...Even if there isn't any! If 90% of people believe a hoax to be real it still remains a hoax!

Arkless Electronics

28-11-2015, 15:41

https://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2015/9/Naim-Audio-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_304328.aspx

Marco

28-11-2015, 15:45

If a cable makes a big difference to the tonal balance of an amplifier then I would be looking for a design problem within the amplifier.

Not big differences. "Big" is the wrong word: 'worthwhile' is a better one. Call it 'the icing on an already sorted cake' :)

If you're hearing genuinely BIG/MASSIVE differences between mains cables, then it suggests that there is a major imbalance present somewhere in your system - or you *are* indeed imagining it!

Marco.

struth

28-11-2015, 15:47

The burn in effect can also then be questioned yet many believe in this including Jez. Is it psychology or is it fact...Ive not seen any definitive test results to prove it.

cloth-ears

28-11-2015, 15:48

Statistically many also report not hearing a difference... A "herd mentality" tends to prevail in these sort of things and when certain phenomena are "perceived" by some, especially if they are vociferous in their view and a good communicator, it tends to spread virally, a "meme" if you like. Look at the way feinting can happen to several people after the first feints, even though there is nothing wrong with them (a case of this happened in the last few weeks in a U.K school). Or the way that religious "phenomena" can spread amongst those who believe (claiming to have seen the virgin Mary appear by a certain tree etc etc). It's the same with mains cables. People want to believe and expectation bias, plus expected peer approval etc does the rest. The mind is a very powerful source of expectation and placebo effect can be so powerful that people who have been hypnotised and told that they have been burnt by cigarette ends have actually developed blisters! I'm sure that in most cases people who claim to hear differences in mains cables genuinely believe that they have indeed heard it... and it's very likely that the capability of the human mind to fool us, to actually react to a placebo, is so strong that these people actually DO hear a difference...Even if there isn't any! If 90% of people believe a hoax to be real it still remains a hoax!

I agree with you Jez and am a little upset that some people would stoop so low as to suggest that you are “scraping a living rather than working for CERN”. You seem like a decent human being to me and although I don’t always agree with everything you say I do respect your god given right to an opinion

Arkless Electronics

28-11-2015, 15:56

The burn in effect can also then be questioned yet many believe in this including Jez. Is it psychology or is it fact...Ive not seen any definitive test results to prove it.

It is easily measurable in those components where it exists. Try monitoring the leakage current of an electrolytic capacitor during its first few hours of use ;)
Also "high K" ceramic capacitors can exhibit some pretty bizarre behaviour with time and temperature... not that they should be used in the signal path of any decent amp but they are sometimes present in power supplies etc. In some precision test gear applications resistors can be "pre aged" by baking to get them to their ultimate stable state where there is no further drift.

Arkless Electronics

28-11-2015, 15:57

I agree with you Jez and am a little upset that some people would stoop so low as to suggest that you are “scraping a living rather than working for CERN”. You seem like a decent human being to me and although I don’t always agree with everything you say I do respect your god given right to an opinion

Cheers Bob :)

Marco

28-11-2015, 15:57

You seem like a decent human being to me and although I don’t always agree with everything you say I do respect your god given right to an opinion...

...and that's what it boils down to in these discussions. Entrenched opinions aren't ever going to be changed, but if we can all share our MUTUALLY VALID experiences, and agree to disagree, but most importantly, RESPECT the contrary view of others, then a) threads such as this won't need moderating, and b) we might *actually* learn something new, and perhaps of valuable use to us :)

The worst thing is when someone from either 'camp' insists that the other is wrong, and worse, tries to 'educate' them as to why, with the view of trying to CHANGE them, in order to mould them into conforming with the same 'world view' as theirs.

That's when the person receiving that treatment gets their back up - and things quickly degenerate from there! ;)

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

28-11-2015, 16:19

PaulStewart

28-11-2015, 16:24

...and that's what it boils down to in these discussions. Entrenched opinions aren't ever going to be changed, but if we can all share our MUTUALLY VALID experiences, and agree to disagree, but most importantly, RESPECT the contrary view of others, then a) threads such as this won't need moderating, and b) we might *actually* learn something new, and perhaps of valuable use to us :)

The worst thing is when someone from either 'camp' insists that the other is wrong, and worse, tries to 'educate' them as to why, with the view of trying to CHANGE them, in order to mould them into conforming with the same 'world view' as theirs.

That's when the one receiving that treatment gets their back up - and things quickly degenerate from there! ;)

Marco.

Firstly Bob an Jez, I meant no personal insult, I was simply asking you to approach things with an open mind and by Jez's own posts on here, he has cash flow problems. To take up Marco's point above, I was discussing it and this thread with the Mrs. Now Viv has a BSc (Hons) from London University in psychology, (yes we are all at it in this house). One of her areas of expertise is the Placebo effect. Having been involved, through me in the audio world, without meaning to be rude, she is postulating and I tend to concur, a "Cop-out effect" where people of a closed mind bent, simply cannot hear changes that more open minded technical or many lay observers can, because it goes against the grain of what they have been taught as the basis of their science. It's a bit like so called "creationist" scientists who have to come up with theories explaining dinosaur fossils that tie in with the bible.

Arkless Electronics

28-11-2015, 16:32

Whilst we're debating this sort of thing.... and I'll ignore the urge for a father ted bit there :D There is much that is not understood by anyone when it comes to hi fi audio. It's still a complete mystery, which is why this particular field in analogue electronic design is so interesting to so many engineers.
If someone asked me to design and build them an amp with a specific sonic signature, lets say "must have a fluid and mellifluous midrange with superb sound-staging and in particular front to back depth" then I would have to answer that I can't do that. I.E I can't specifically design it to have those precise characteristics and know the finished amp will indeed demonstrate these traits... NO ONE can! And if they tell you otherwise I'd be very suspicious.... Sure I could use particular circuit techniques which experience has shown me to be more likely to have the desired characteristics but its still pretty much a lottery. It is simply not known to science what causes good or bad perceived depth of image etc! Why can two amps which both have distortion below 0.1% and a ruler flat frequency response sound very different? I don't know, and I design the bleedin' things! Again, nobody does....

Arkless Electronics

28-11-2015, 16:41

Firstly Bob an Jez, I meant no personal insult, I was simply asking you to approach things with an open mind and by Jez's own posts on here, he has cash flow problems. To take up Marco's point above, I was discussing it and this thread with the Mrs. Now Viv has a BSc (Hons) from London University in psychology, (yes we are all at it in this house). One of her areas of expertise is the Placebo effect. Having been involved, through me in the audio world, without meaning to be rude, she is postulating and I tend to concur, a "Cop-out effect" where people of a closed mind bent, simply cannot hear changes that more open minded technical or many lay observers can, because it goes against the grain of what they have been taught as the basis of their science. It's a bit like so called "creationist" scientists who have to come up with theories explaining dinosaur fossils that tie in with the bible.

That argument can be flipped 180 degrees though and neither can be proved correct Do some hear differences because they have a sufficiently open mind or because they are more susceptible to placebo and suggestion?

If you watch a stage hypnotist work a small room they will usually start with a few "games" which are actually tests to allow the hypnotist to pick out those most susceptible to suggestion for their main act!

cloth-ears

28-11-2015, 16:47

Firstly Bob an Jez, I meant no personal insult, I was simply asking you to approach things with an open mind and by Jez's own posts on here, he has cash flow problems. To take up Marco's point above, I was discussing it and this thread with the Mrs. Now Viv has a BSc (Hons) from London University in psychology, (yes we are all at it in this house). One of her areas of expertise is the Placebo effect. Having been involved, through me in the audio world, without meaning to be rude, she is postulating and I tend to concur, a "Cop-out effect" where people of a closed mind bent, simply cannot hear changes that more open minded technical or many lay observers can, because it goes against the grain of what they have been taught as the basis of their science. It's a bit like so called "creationist" scientists who have to come up with theories explaining dinosaur fossils that tie in with the bible.

Quite why one man’s cash flow problems have anything to with his intellectual ability to hold his own in a conversation is totally beyond me. Why even mention it? Unless he was offering financial advice‎ then the only reason to mention it in the contacts of this debate would be to score points. That is totally deplorable. If you believe that his argument has little or no merit then you should stick to content of the argument. Otherwise it’s just bullying, pure and simple.

Oldpinkman

28-11-2015, 16:48

Paul
As previously noted, there is no requirement to delve into psychology any more than particle physics. "Lots of people able to hear it" is lovely for the people who do so. But no different in principle from the McGurk effect (and many others) which have done the rounds on these forums. It just proves that one mans experience is very personal and very real.

It is a bit disingenuous to start invoking pseudo-science, or suggestions of the fallibility of pretty core well-established science to put-down legitimate scientific objections. The reality is that whilst there is a large vociferous body of individuals who personally experience the effects of mains cables and the like, there is no credible scientific theoretical or experimental evidence offered in support. Even when fairly big players, with resources, like Naim are called shocking fibbers by Advertising standards.

To make a case that the phenomena is real, and there is a case for science to answer and explain would not be hard. Science would be quite happy to accept that the human ear can prove something, if demonstrated by some human ears in a situation which assured the effect was detected by the ears alone, and none of the minds other influences were involved. We are of course talking simple blind testing - in a properly controlled environment.

Please note, I am not saying nobody should enjoy their own legitimate experiences for themselves unless they or someone else can prove those experiences to be real by blind testing. I am happy not to challenge peoples experiences in that regard. But in holding those personal experiences, there is no need to then "prove the point" by requiring science to be flawed. IF, and only IF, you feel it necessary to challenge science because you are not happy to just enjoy what you enjoy but have to prove you are right, then do so in a way which is credible for science - demonstrate with a properly controlled blind test that it is possible to detect mains cable differences with the use of ears and ears alone.

I can't imagine a scientist on the planet, never mind this forum, would then not accept that there is something to investigate. But "loads of people report it" is not the same thing

This is an area where I do also have some first hand experience, back from when I was working with PT. We had extensive experience of people who could definitely hear things until asked to demonstrate it with a blind test. I was one of them!

Oldpinkman

28-11-2015, 16:48

Marco

28-11-2015, 17:02

Well I hope I'm not over stepping that line :)

No, Jez, not at all.

One good thing with having alternative views expressed, on 'controversial' subjects like this, is that (if you're sufficiently open-minded and receptive to new ideas and ways of thinking), it forces you out of your comfort zone, and with it, the opportunity to examine things from a different point of view, perhaps things you hadn't considered before: it's called learning.

But learning has to be achieved in a way that YOUR brain finds it best or easiest to accept; not by being lectured to by an arrogant (often abrasive) 'know it all', ramming 'scientific facts' down your throat, who's treating you with contempt, simply because you refuse to think the way he does, or accept his 'world view'. [I'm not referring to you here, btw].

You will NEVER get through that way to people who, quite simply, don't NATURALLY think the same way you do, and have rather different, but equally valid thought processes. Therefore, by 'lecturing' to them that way, all you're achieving is wasting your time and energy, and likely pissing off the person on the receiving end you're trying to 'educate', but in reality are simply belittling or patronising.

What always amazes me in discussions like this, and something I really DO NOT understand, are those who seem to have 'bought into' a specific belief system (scientific or subjectivist), and would no sooner accept or admit that their thinking perhaps is flawed, than confess to being an idiot. It's almost as if they consider an attack on their belief system as an attack on THEM, and an affront to their sensibilities. Weird! :mental:

You will never, EVER get through to people like that, as their minds are closed beyond any hope of being opened, and so should simply be left to their own devices.

Marco.

sq225917

28-11-2015, 17:04

I do hear a lot of people who believe that mains cables , without filters built in, are capable of making an audible difference. Though I've yet to find anyone who can perform this parlour trick blindfolded. I even believed it myself way back when. I had a silver 3mm poiwer cable, wattgate, silver fused, silver toughplug, the works. It made a huge difference the first time I plugged it into my amp. It was amazing, I told everyone, night and day. Then a few weeks later I swapped back, and couldn't hear a loss of quality. So I tried it blind, spent hours dicking about with my mate Greg, couple I pick them out, could I identify a swap, could I buggery.

So I bought some Duraglit, unplugged and cleaned all my plugs, gave them some deoxit love and left it at that.

Chris, are you really saying you don't know why altering the resistance and capacitance surrounding a transistor emitter can affect the way it sounds?

Marco

28-11-2015, 17:07

Having been involved, through me in the audio world, without meaning to be rude, she is postulating and I tend to concur, a "Cop-out effect" where people of a closed mind bent, simply cannot hear changes that more open minded technical or many lay observers can, because it goes against the grain of what they have been taught as the basis of their science.

In my opinion, that observation is not only valid, but happens on forums all the time! You know who you are.... ;)

Also, and I don't mean to be disrespectful here, bit I find that such behaviour most often comes from folk of 'a certain age' - almost as if they've been 'permanently programmed' by the rigid tenets of a bygone education system... Younger people tend not to be so pig-headed or intransigent.

Marco.

Marco

28-11-2015, 17:17

I do hear a lot of people who believe that mains cables , without filters built in, are capable of making an audible difference. Though I've yet to find anyone who can perform this parlour trick blindfolded.

Now you see, Simon, that remark is both patronising and disrespectful, and thus lowers the tone of the discussion. It's also what aggravates others of an opposite mindset. So stop talking about blindfolds, and your associated fetishes, and talk about hi-fi instead ;)

Marco.

Marco

28-11-2015, 17:23

Science would be quite happy to accept that the human ear can prove something, if demonstrated by some human ears in a situation which assured the effect was detected by the ears alone, and none of the minds other influences were involved. We are of course talking simple blind testing - in a properly controlled environment.

Yes, but at what point would a normal, fulfilled and well-adjusted person, free from any serious insecurities, simply say 'life's too short', and just enjoy the effects of whatever it is he or she believed to be true?

Must you wear a blindfold and behave like some form of test subject/laboratory guinea pig all of your life, before daring to form an opinion on anything? Normal people just don't behave that way. For me, this continual need to 'indisputably prove' stuff to yourself is not only ridiculous, but unhealthy, bad for the soul and just not a good place for your head to be.

Furthermore, it's the insatiable desire for some to try and PROVE to others that they're wrong/imagining things, or make them conform to their way of thinking, which IMO, says much more about THEM than it does about those they're trying to change.

Marco.

PaulStewart

28-11-2015, 17:24

In my opinion, that observation is not only valid, but happens on forums all the time! You know who you are.... ;)

Also, and I don't mean to be disrespectful here, bit I find it's often from folk of 'a certain age' - almost as if they've been 'moulded' by the rigid tenets of a specific education system... Younger people tend not to hold such entrenched views.

Marco.

Well I get your point, but I would point out that Viv and I are perhaps of that certain age. I turned 60 this year and Viv is 21 :) (always try and be a gentleman). I would say we both come from a background that encourages free thinking.

Arkless Electronics

28-11-2015, 17:33

Marco

28-11-2015, 17:35

Marco

28-11-2015, 17:42

Well I get your point, but I would point out that Viv and I are perhaps of that certain age. I turned 60 this year and Viv is 21 :) (always try and be a gentleman). I would say we both come from a background that encourages free thinking.

You do indeed (as that is obvious), hence why I didn't say ALL people of that age.

For me, there are those who think like PROPER scientists, with genuinely open and inquisitive minds, and those who align themselves to a scientific mindset because it suits their 'belief system', or it's seen as the 'intellectual thing to do'.

The latter are simply pseudo-scientists, rather than the real variety, or worse, laymen with an unjustified superiority complex ;)

Marco.

Marco

28-11-2015, 17:48

I would say we both come from a background that encourages free thinking.

Free-thinking is where it's at. Long live the free thinkers! :hifive:

Unfortunately, some folk seem incapable of that, and instead require to be governed and led by some form of dogma. Very weird.

Marco.

sq225917

28-11-2015, 20:17

Now you see, Simon, that remark is both patronising and disrespectful, and thus lowers the tone of the discussion. It's also what aggravates others of an opposite mindset. So stop talking about blindfolds, and your associated fetishes, and talk about hi-fi instead ;)

Marco.

Marco, it's neither of things you claim, it's just a statement of fact; one however that doesn't align with the particular, none evidentiary based world view of this forum. By similar admission I've had plenty of people be able to identify RCA interconnects blindfolded. Would you deem that statement similarly disrespectful or patronising or is it ok because the result supports a particular view of the world?

If you're happy for the RCA interconnect statement to support the AOS worldview, lending the added support of unsighted listening ability to the mass of anecdotes, then you similarly must be happy for the other statement to stand because it is based on the same validity of testing- even if the result is the other way round.

I'm perfectly happy for anyone to claim they can hear whatever they want, but that doesn't mean the existence of their view should preclude me from expressing mine or recounting the circumstances in which it was obtained.

Marco

28-11-2015, 20:40

No problem with any of that (in fact I agree with most of it); just please don't use belittling, patronising (and potentially inflammatory) language such as "parlour trick", because it only serves to make you look arrogant, and is liable to cause the thread to degenerate into ad hominem.

You're intelligent enough to present your argument otherwise, and frame it more constructively, so in future please put that intelligence to better use.

Marco.

mikmas

28-11-2015, 20:53

Bob, Paul's not bullying anyone. He's simply expressing his valid opinion,

Marco.

Having followed this thread and as someone who has no axe to grind either way on this particular issue I would have to disagree ... bring anyone's personal situation into an argument is IMV at best dubious and at worst a means to detract from a point of view that opposes your own using a total irrelevancy and as such a form of bullying. Given the context in which this was brought up I have to conclude the latter... I was quite frankly disappointed with that post coming from someone whose views I normally respect.

I feel it was totally misplaced and innapropriate

Marco

28-11-2015, 20:54

I'd quite like your view on this, Simon:

Yes, but at what point would a normal, fulfilled and well-adjusted person, free from any serious insecurities, simply say 'life's too short', and just enjoy the effects of whatever it is he or she believed to be true?

Must you wear a blindfold and behave like some form of test subject/laboratory guinea pig all of your life, before daring to form an opinion on anything?

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Marco.

Marco

28-11-2015, 20:55

Having followed this thread and as someone who has no axe to grind either way on this particular issue I would have to disagree ... bring anyone's personal situation into an argument is IMV at best dubious and at worst a means to detract from a point of view that opposes your own using a total irrelevancy and as such a form of bullying. Given the context in which this was brought up I have to conclude the latter... I was quite frankly disappointed with that post coming from someone whose views I normally respect.

I feel it was totally misplaced and innapropriate

Fair enough, Mike, but I'm pretty sure Paul didn't intend for it to come across like that. In my experience, he just isn't wired that way :)

Marco.

Andrei

28-11-2015, 23:12

Quite why one man’s cash flow problems have anything to with his intellectual ability to hold his own in a conversation is totally beyond me. Why even mention it? Unless he was offering financial advice‎ then the only reason to mention it in the contacts of this debate would be to score points. That is totally deplorable. If you believe that his argument has little or no merit then you should stick to content of the argument. Otherwise it’s just bullying, pure and simple.
+2

What always amazes me in discussions like this, and something I really DO NOT understand, are those who seem to have 'bought into' a specific belief system (scientific or subjectivist), and would no sooner accept or admit that their thinking perhaps is flawed, than confess to being an idiot.
Marco.
I see this quite a lot, in fact I have a name for something similar: Professor's Disease. In a situation of difference of opinion intelligent people are right far more often than they are wrong. On those occasions where they are wrong, or it is a matter of preference, they cannot conceive they are wrong - they are 'always' right. PG Wodehouse put it succinctly something like this: "they confuse the improbable with the impossible". Then, a combination of self-assuredness, experience, and arrogance means they cannot admit they are wrong because they cannot take that first step of considering that they could be wrong.

Light Dependant Resistor

29-11-2015, 01:13

Chris, are you really saying you don't know why altering the resistance and capacitance surrounding a transistor emitter can affect the way it sounds?
Of course I know why, it is emitter degeneration, but assessing correct values instead of just placing what someone else may think be correct, is what I am doing.

Marco

29-11-2015, 06:30

I see this quite a lot, in fact I have a name for something similar: Professor's Disease. In a situation of difference of opinion intelligent people are right far more often than they are wrong. On those occasions where they are wrong, or it is a matter of preference, they cannot conceive they are wrong - they are 'always' right. PG Wodehouse put it succinctly something like this: "they confuse the improbable with the impossible". Then, a combination of self-assuredness, experience, and arrogance means they cannot admit they are wrong because they cannot take that first step of considering that they could be wrong.

I like it: "Professor's Disease" (must remember that); a rather succinct and accurate observation, I feel - and like you I have witnessed that behaviour a lot. I have no problem whatsoever admitting when I'm wrong, and have done so many times, but never simply because a 'scientific fact' has supposedly proven so, as facts can be twisted to suit an agenda.

Outside of the existence of irrefutable evidence, categorically proving that I'm wrong (and no, I don't consider that is the case with my views on mains cables), I have to be satisfied within myself, based on my judgement criteria, that I'm wrong. I won't simply be told by some dogmatic 'objectivist' that I'm wrong, especially when I consider that his thinking is flawed.

Demonstrate to me, however, that I'm wrong, in a way that I consider as satisfactory, and I'll gladly accept it and alter my position accordingly. That's what's called being open-minded, and most importantly, a free thinker.

Marco.

sq225917

29-11-2015, 08:57

Of course I know why, it is emitter degeneration, but assessing correct values instead of just placing what someone else may think be correct, is what I am doing.

Surely the only 'person' who matters is the guy at the fab who wrote the applications note, or would you choose a value outside of the area of expected operation if you preferred the sound? I have a friend who loves the sound of too much second harmonic and he'll regularly pick a circuit with higher distortion as the prefers the added bite.

sq225917

29-11-2015, 09:07

I'd quite like your view on this, Simon:

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Marco.

Well, this should give you an idea of where I sit. I've not changed a signal cable in over five years and my power cables range from genuine kettle lead, through OEM DC blocker to that one solid silver cable i have. I genuinely give no thought to wiring at all other than dressing my tonearm. It just doesn't make any different in my setup.

If someone came round with some uber wire with uber claims, then I'd plug it in. If I thought it made a difference I'd check that by trying it blind. But I'm not looking to improve my hifi via cables, its not even on my radar, and as such even if it did sound different I wouldn't buy one- not unless it sounded like an amp upgrade.

Light Dependant Resistor

29-11-2015, 09:17

Surely the only 'person' who matters is the guy at the fab who wrote the applications note, .
I am the person that matters, because for this circuit, I wrote the application note.

Cheers / Chris

awkwardbydesign

29-11-2015, 10:09

I am the person that matters, because for this circuit, I wrote the application note.

Cheers / Chris

Nice one!

cloth-ears

29-11-2015, 10:36

I am the person that matters, because for this circuit, I wrote the application note.

Cheers / Chris

He shoots, he scores :)

Marco

29-11-2015, 11:24

Well, this should give you an idea of where I sit. I've not changed a signal cable in over five years and my power cables range from genuine kettle lead, through OEM DC blocker to that one solid silver cable i have. I genuinely give no thought to wiring at all other than dressing my tonearm. It just doesn't make any different in my setup.

If someone came round with some uber wire with uber claims, then I'd plug it in. If I thought it made a difference I'd check that by trying it blind. But I'm not looking to improve my hifi via cables, its not even on my radar, and as such even if it did sound different I wouldn't buy one- not unless it sounded like an amp upgrade.

Ah, I note your position is now softening somewhat, as you've gone from 'It's a fact that mains cables make no difference', to 'It just doesn't make any difference in my set up.' Nice one. It shows that you're willing to adjust your opinion, if presented with a good enough argument ;)

Ok, here's where I sit:

I'm not actively looking to improve my hi-fi via cables, either. For me, I've been there, done that, and now have a satisfactory t-shirt to prove it. Therefore, that particular journey is over, so I'm certainly not 'obsessing' over it now. There are no "uber claims" from me: if something works, it works, and I just describe the effect I can hear.

Based on considerable experience, whenever I've experimented with mains leads or cables of any other description, there have always been subtle, but nevertheless worthwhile sonic differences between all those that I've tried - and so that's what I report on forums, when the subject comes up. I certainly don't subscribe to the 'night and day difference' school of thought.

If a hi-fi system is fundamentally right, then all good cables should do is bring everything together as a 'musical whole'. I certainly don't use cables as glorified tone controls, although to my ears most do bring about subtle tonal changes, when they interact with the balance of the system in question, so undoubtedly some light 'tuning' in that respect is needed.

As for the process I use to form my opinions, first of all I never, EVER just 'automatically believe' anything. Everything I judge in audio is subject to my own rigorous (subjective) analysis, before anything resembling a conclusive opinion is formed. That process can take up to two weeks (or sometimes more), whereby the essential question to myself will be: 'Does this cable/amplifier, or whatever, make me enjoy listening to my favourite music MORE (than what was there before), or is it all a bit, as they say, 'meh'?'

In my experience, if introducing a new piece of kit or cables into your system induces the effect of musical disinterest, or it instantly, or through time, makes you want to rifle through your music collection and stay up to the small hours of the morning listening, then that's the biggest and most conclusive test of all - and quite simply, that CANNOT be achieved with rapid-fire ABX blind-testing, as the process doesn't allow for exposing those subtle effects that creep up through time, and are so crucial in getting it right when choosing equipment or cables, or in identifying whether an effect is real or imagined.

With blind-testing, you find yourself analysing sound, not music, and that doesn't tell you what you really need to know, as the two are intrinsically different...... The whole process for me, therefore, is way too clinical and 'broad brush' to be accurately used for identifying audio effects - and in my view, isn't really compatible with how we as humans analyse and process music signals. That is why I have no desire whatsoever to sit in my room, like a sad geek, with a blindfold on, testing myself like some lab rat :nono:

I have far better things to do with my time, and indeed would never live that shit down, if any of my friends caught me! :eek:

At the end of the day, once I consider that my subjective judgement criteria have been satisfied, then I'll simply trust my ears and just enjoy the music, and the genuine (to me) improvements, or otherwise, that have arisen from whatever it was I've just installed.

Life's too short to have to continually 'scientifically prove' to yourself everything that you can hear. Thank goodness, I don't suffer from that level of paranoia or insecurity...

Marco.

Macca

29-11-2015, 11:38

Marco

29-11-2015, 11:58

The thing is, Martin, those are what one would call 'hi-fi differences', not necessarily musical ones, and for me, it's the latter that count most when deciding whether something is 'right' in your system or not.

While things like reduced noise, lowered mains impedance, etc, I'm pretty sure are partially responsible for creating the improvements with mains cables many of us can genuinely hear, like I said, the acid subjective test is: 'does this new mains cable (or whatever) make me 'get into' my favourite music more, or not'?

And you have to switch off your 'hi-fi head' for that to happen, forget you're testing for something, and just RELAX and go with the flow, allowing any genuine differences to reveal themselves in the fullness of time. A relaxed state of mind is key to obtaining an insightful, and thus worthwhile result - and achieving that required state of relaxation is very difficult when you feel like you're being 'tested'.

That is why, IMO, blind-testing is fundamentally flawed, when applied to audio.

Thing is, I'm not sure some folk can do that (leave analytical mode, as described above), which will then allow them to listen for the right things (music, not sound), as their brains aren't wired that way [too much binary thinking], which is possibly why they don't 'get it'...

Marco.

Macca

29-11-2015, 12:22

Marco

29-11-2015, 12:26

It's just a thought I've postulated, mate, and not necessary correct :)

What I do know is that we all think differently, and so you cannot affix one person's judgement criteria onto another person of an entirely different mindset, and hope to arrive at any meaningful conclusions about whether or not they can hear cable differences.

The bottom line is do whatever is best for YOU, and forget about what anyone else, or 'scientific facts', say you should hear, or not! ;)

Marco.

Macca

29-11-2015, 12:35

It's just a thought I've postulated, mate, and not necessary correct :)

.

As is pretty much everything everyone has posted so far on this thread :)

My approach is that when there are no facts to work from and you are not an expert - and there is no expert available for an opinion - work from common-sense and logic.

That still means making some leaps and the first is to accept that it is likely that some people are hearing an improvement and are not imagining it (given the volume of subjective reports), and then try to work out the 'why' from there. In other words what Paul said some pages back.

I must give that fancy cable another go now I have different speakers. Alan Firebottle measured it when he was here last and pronounced it as normal and working.

Marco

29-11-2015, 12:38

My approach is that when there are no facts to work from and you are not an expert - and there is no expert available for an opinion - work from common-sense and logic.

Yes, by all means, work on common sense and logic, but in the final analysis, have the gumption to trust your God-given senses.

I must give that fancy cable another go now I have different speakers. Alan Firebottle measured it when he was here last and pronounced it as normal and working.

Nice one. Let me know what you think :)

Marco.

awkwardbydesign

29-11-2015, 16:50

As you know I have never bought into the 'we all hear differently' argument.
I have never understood this. Vision varies; there are tests for this. Taste varies; I can't tell which side of a hill a wine comes from, but some can. They are called Masters of Wine. Smell too, perfumiers for example. Why should hearing be the only sense where everyone is the same?
I keep posting my audiogram, and my wife's, which have measurable differences. So how exactly do you "not buy into it"?

Oldpinkman

29-11-2015, 17:40

Now you are suggesting a psychological explanation for why some can't hear a difference which is the same reason the naysayers use, just reversed.

'The improvement is subtle at best and cannot be heard on some systems for a variety of reasons we do not fully understand' - is my take on things.

As you know I have never bought into the 'we all hear differently' argument.

"We all hear differently" - some are trained to hear differently, some notice things others don't, some bother about things others don't

Many of my friends are happy to listen to music on small wifi speaker devices like the Bose and "cant hear the difference" (or don't care) with a "proper hifi"
Many listen on a phone with only one earpiece of a stereo pair in their ear

If you listen to Adele's latest hit "Hello" - can you hear which chords are being played and which voicings? (Never mind if you can't give them a name - if I stuck you in front of a piano, could you plonk about till you get them?) And I didn't pick that one to wind up Jez, but because it only has 5 really easy chords played on piano with no distracting backing vocals, orchestra etc to start, and even then the sequences repeat. I have musician friends who can pick out the chords for the guitar part in music with a lot more going on.

Could you tune a piano and get it right? If you answer "Yes" to both, do you accept there are others here who would answer "No"

So we hear - or notice - differently. This of course, only emphasises how much of hearing is in the mind. You are probably right, that for most of us with undamaged hearing, the little hairs wiggle in the same way and send much the same nerve signals. But that is only a tiny bit of what hearing is all about.

As for "The improvement is subtle at best and cannot be heard on some systems for a variety of reasons we do not fully understand" - it is apparantly so subtle that it cannot readily be demonstrated - but has to be taken on trust. The fact that lots of people report it, doesnt establish it is an air pressure wave phenomena. It is rather, part of that more complex total hearing experience. So don't go looking for explanations in physics - they aren't needed. Those who hear the difference enjoy the experience, and those that don't hear the difference retain more in their wallets, and everyone including the merchants selling the gear is perfectly happy about that.

Many not hearing the difference are not bothered about subtle differences anyway (like Simon, and myself) . The music we hear is either "live" or "real" and we are happy, or sufficiently "defective" to need fixing and we look for things to change. Really I hate Hifi. Its a nuisance. I only take any interest in it when it is f***ing up my enjoyment of music I want to listen to and con myself is "real". To be fair, some of the things I consider "sufficiently defective" to require fixing would be thought fairly subtle by many others (or utterly pointless by many of them0. But they are big enough to demonstrate reliably.

But for some, much like my son being happy with a wallet which costs silly money, and to me appears for all practical purposes identical to many far cheaper, there is "more to it". Having a designer wallet makes Tim feel good. Nobody needs to look at the physics of why! Its his perception. That is very personal - and ultimately all that matters to any of us as individuals

mikmas

29-11-2015, 18:26

I read these threads with avid interest and the differing points of view are always fascinating (and often revelatory)

One thing struck me about a perceived 'component improvement' review that I read on a forum (might have been on here...)
The reviewer made a comment to the effect that the improvement he heard was most evident in suddenly being able to hear the echo on John Martyn's voice on a track from 'Solid Air' (may have been the title track). I was initially amused by this as I have always heard this echo - it is noticeable on most of the slow ballads on the album and a lot of his other work as well (and a lot of other vocalists).

Possible conclusions from this could be that the equipment before the addition of the improved component was so dire that the echo could not be heard (unlikely) or that the process of reviewing the component had pushed the reviewer to listen to music he took for granted in a more focussed way (very likely) Either way, this single observation tended to reinforce a certain scepticism I already had over claimed improvements brought about through changes to relatively minor components.

That said, I have experienced a whole range of lasting improvements by replacing bits and bobs - but usually when substituting something known to be substandard (such as 'freebie' cables) with something clearly of a better design and manufacture. To me though that 'fit for purpose' threshold is quickly reached and rarely entails spending a lot of money ... partly because I'm a tight wad but mainly because I just don't have the dosh to splash out silly money on what I consider to be audio bling....

Marco

29-11-2015, 18:54

Good post, Mike. One thing I've learned with cables, of any description, is that you definitely don't need to spend a lot to get something that is rather more "fit for purpose" than a kettle lead or those dreadful 'freebie interconnects' you mention...

In that respect, the interesting thing is that over the last six years, I've downgraded my cables from at one point using £700 a pop interconnects, from Transparent Audio, to £30 Klotz MC5000, and similar priced mains leads from Transparent, and also MCRU 'Ultimates', at around £500, to my now 'Nexans specials', at £25 - *and* have upgraded the sound of my system in the process, simply by reinvesting the money saved on other areas of my system, where the funds produced better sonic rewards.

'Downgrade to upgrade' is an interesting and rather novel concept, I suspect, for high-end audio.... Of course, if I'd been a true audiophile, fatally afflicted with expectation bias, I would've 'convinced myself' that the expensive stuff was better... Plus, I managed it all too, without a blindfold in sight! ;)

Marco.

struth

29-11-2015, 19:11

Ive never had any bling lol. Biggest overall performance upgrade over the whole system was the regenerator I got second hand. apart from giving a steady 50hz for the tt it also gives a steady 230v instead of the varying mains which can at time climb high. the big belkin filter box connected to the end of it did the rest. Almost all my cables are homemade(some by Brian and some by Geoff) the rest mine. None cost much but they all have their merits over the bought ones depending where I was using them. I got a few nice ones from Marco which I am now not needing as I have reduced my stereo collection to minimal but some of them are very good too. I have had ones from highish end companies that I thought were rubbish where I was using them anyways, but others have used them and are very happy with them, so obviously cables do make a difference to different folk in different situations.

Quite like this too
I have been in the audio hobby since the late sixties, probably before most of you were born. This doesn't mean anything by itself, but time and time again through many experiences I have been surprised by what I hear or don't hear, what I can and can't explain. The simple reason is that audio is not a physical endeavor where you can decide by just measuring things; it is a psychophysical one. As any wine lover can tell you, there is a difference between a regular jug wine and a great cabernet, even if when "measured" both will come out as certain quantities of alcohol, plus this and that.

Marco

29-11-2015, 19:30

Ah, then maybe I'm using my wine connoisseur skills to judge my hi-fi! :eyebrows:

Marco.

mikmas

29-11-2015, 20:04

As any wine lover can tell you, there is a difference between a regular jug wine and a great cabernet, even if when "measured" both will come out as certain quantities of alcohol, plus this and that.

I can say with absolute certainty that the biggest improvement to my audio circuitry is a judicious application of a large quantity of alcohol :lol:

mikmas

29-11-2015, 20:05

oops - double post
(must lay off the booze :)

Marco

29-11-2015, 20:07

And it's especially true when you repeat it twice! :D

Marco.

Oldpinkman

29-11-2015, 21:21

Interesting the wine references. The practice of blind tasting is common, and considered essential to remove other possible influences from the result and ensure taste land smell and colour but not knowledge of the label are the basis for the choice. But of course it is perfectly fair for most of us to just drink for the pleasure of enjoying it. I speak from very recent experience

Marco

29-11-2015, 22:19

The wine thing is a valid analogy, I feel. I've attended a few blind wine tastings in the past, and usually do quite well identifying what the various types are. It's certainly more fun that blind-testing cables! ;)

My dad used to try and catch me out, when I came round for Sunday lunch, by covering the label on the wine bottle with a paper napkin. One time he was certain he had me, by buying what he thought was a pretty obscure wine, Chateau Musar, from Lebanon...

Trouble was, he didn't know that it was one of my favourite wines, with a very distinctive flavour, due to the unique grape variety it uses. So I guessed it instantly, which really pissed him off! :eyebrows: But he still saw the funny side. Ever since then, though, he hasn't bothered trying to test me.

Marco.

Oldpinkman

30-11-2015, 06:48

A little update about hearing involving the brain not the ears, and how little effect your conscious brain has on your automatic brain. Sue has just reminded me.

We recently sold our pearl drum kit on fleabay. The buyer was a lovely guy from Essex. An experienced drummer, he wanted a practice kit he could leave set up at home, rather than keep putting up and down his stage kit.

He was profoundly deaf. He had completely lost all hearing as a result of an injury at work. He was a fireman deafened by an acetylene explosion. He is able to drum by wearing special pads on his skin which vibrate as each drum is struck.

He is still hopeful that his hearing may be restored. All the tests show there is no major damage to his ears. The problem is likely to be in his brain. It has switched off his hearing. Against his will. You couldn't meet anyone with a more positive attitude.

I can relate to this. My right eye was injured by a shuttlecock when I was 12, and rapidly became blind primarily due to a cataract which formed as a result of the injury. About 12 years ago the cataract was removed, and although subsequent complications have impaired sight substantially, for a couple of years I could see quite a lot through that eye. If I used it on its own.

In "normal" 2eyed use, where the right eye was weaker, and the brain wasn't used to being sent any signals by it, it would be switched off. Except sometimes, randomly, it would switch on. Which was very confusing!

Macca

30-11-2015, 08:48

I have never understood this. Vision varies; there are tests for this. Taste varies; I can't tell which side of a hill a wine comes from, but some can. They are called Masters of Wine. Smell too, perfumiers for example. Why should hearing be the only sense where everyone is the same?
I keep posting my audiogram, and my wife's, which have measurable differences. So how exactly do you "not buy into it"?

Hearing may be impaired in various ways bit it will not turn a good sound into a bad sound or vice-versa. What I think is a good sound will be the same as what you think is a good sound. if I think it sounds poor you will agree. Now once we start analysing we may differ about the details or the presentation (as opposed to the quality) but the fundamental 'good or bad' decision is not a conscious one and happens somewhere deep in the ancient part of our brains and is the same for us all. No matter how unique we might like to think we are, we are all basically the same machine.

awkwardbydesign

30-11-2015, 09:13

Hearing may be impaired in various ways bit it will not turn a good sound into a bad sound or vice-versa. What I think is a good sound will be the same as what you think is a good sound. if I think it sounds poor you will agree. Now once we start analysing we may differ about the details or the presentation (as opposed to the quality) but the fundamental 'good or bad' decision is not a conscious one and happens somewhere deep in the ancient part of our brains and is the same for us all. No matter how unique we might like to think we are, we are all basically the same machine.
Sorry, but that just isn't true. My sensitivity at 8kHz, for example, will turn someone else's "good sound" into pain for me. And deep brain? How do you know this? Especially as a study I read many years ago described how a baby's neural pathways will develop differently depending on the sounds they hear as they grow. Which explains why many Japanese cannot hear any difference between L and R sounds. In their brains there is no difference.

Oldpinkman

30-11-2015, 09:56

Hypothetically speaking - since I am someone who has yet to hear the benefit of a fancy mains cable (although I do own one) - if they do make an improvement it is likely to be reduced noise rather than any tonal shift in the sound such as you might get from an interconnect or speaker cable change.

If the system already has very low noise you may not get the benefit - conversely if the system has quite high noise then the cable may not make enough of a reduction to it to be audible.

Just noticed this looking back. The comment makes sense to me, but that may reveal how poorly I truly understand the subject. Certainly my own experiment with a "HiFi" mains cable (2 of them) resulted from hum concerns and a desire to reduce them. The advice I received from my engineer friend, was that shielding the mains cable would not be effective, and the answer was to shield the signal cables, or address other issues. Something to do with wavelengths and radiation patterns, which I now forget. However, he said "try it and see"

I tried it. It made no difference to the (perceptible) noise. More careful routing of cables, and better earthing tackled the noise.

Since I had the cables, and they were confirmed "audiophile" quality (although very much at the budget end of that) I thought I'd try them for "other" benefit. I found none. Although they looked impressive. Too impressive for the missus, which is why they are in a box in the shed now. But there was this sort of "that has to be giving it some oomph" feeling when you looked at them, that deep down meant I knew I had it nailed. But if I actually tried to tell the difference, I had to say there was none. Other than usual variations "today sounds good" (or rather, today I haven't even thought about the HiFi, just enjoyed the music). Next day - listening for something and wondering.

Too many other things have really chunky effects on sound. In my case - critically at the moment - speaker position. Volume control position, distance from speakers, external background noise - all make vastly more difference to how a system sounds.

As does a glass of decent red wine!

:cool:

Macca

30-11-2015, 12:10

Just noticed this looking back. The comment makes sense to me, but that may reveal how poorly I truly understand the subject. :

Well nobody seems to actually understand the subject including the people who design these mains cables since they can't offer technical explanations either. Really it is a double edged sword since if you have so far failed to hear the improvement (as with me) then you are less inclined to spend money on these things or explore them further. But this may also be denying yourself and effective and easy to implement upgrade...

it would concern me more if I had already maxed out on the things that clearly do make a substantial difference but I'm a long way from that place yet.

Macca

30-11-2015, 12:14

Sorry, but that just isn't true. My sensitivity at 8kHz, for example, will turn someone else's "good sound" into pain for me. And deep brain? How do you know this? Especially as a study I read many years ago described how a baby's neural pathways will develop differently depending on the sounds they hear as they grow. Which explains why many Japanese cannot hear any difference between L and R sounds. In their brains there is no difference.

I'd suggest that appreciation of music and the ability to speak and understand language are not directly related. The type of music we like may be culturally determined but I think that the appreciation of it is innate, like the appreciation of birdsong.

Do you really find a sensitivity at 8khz to be a major issue? I would have thought not since that is quite a high frequency and beyond the range of most musical instruments.

Marco

30-11-2015, 12:50

Well nobody seems to actually understand the subject including the people who design these mains cables since they can't offer technical explanations either.

For me it's simple...

Fit something that's been designed as optimally as possible to act the least as a restriction or electrical 'bottle neck', compared with how things would be if you hard-wired your hi-fi system directly to the nearest sub-station, essentially by employing the same 'over-engineer it to buggery' principles, one would when designing a top-notch power amp! :)

Thus you end up with something like this (coming out the back of my Copper amp), resembling a donkey's walloper [note this is an old pic so a lot has changed, out with of the mains lead in question]:

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7223/img1774r.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/img1774r.jpg/)

...rather than a limp little girly disappointment, like this (which, in my experience, *will* act more as an electrical 'bottle neck'):

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/903/ooh8eV.png

The same sonically advantageous 'over-engineering' principles, IMHO, apply to mains leads, as they do to transformers in amplifiers, as they form part of the same chain - simples!!

:exactly:

Marco.

Oldpinkman

30-11-2015, 12:51

Well nobody seems to actually understand the subject including the people who design these mains cables since they can't offer technical explanations either. Really it is a double edged sword since if you have so far failed to hear the improvement (as with me) then you are less inclined to spend money on these things or explore them further. But this may also be denying yourself and effective and easy to implement upgrade...

it would concern me more if I had already maxed out on the things that clearly do make a substantial difference but I'm a long way from that place yet.

To be fair, I said I don't really understand it (although I have a stab at making sense of the science explained to me). Not that nobody seems to. I have no reason to doubt that Owen does understand it properly, and nothing in my experiences requires me to challenge that.

I don't understand general or special relativity properly, and I am unable either to do the measurements or the maths personally to confirm that the Universe is 13.7 billion years old or 93 billion light years across (as of yesterday) - but I am prepared to accept Brian Cox, Stephen Hawking and others do understand it, and as with Owens explanations of mains cables, nothing in my experience requires me to challenge them on their understanding.

Macca

30-11-2015, 12:54

Not so sure about Brian Cox he still thinks man-made climate change is real ;)

So what is Owen's explanation for mains cable 'effects'? I'm guessing he takes a similar position to Jez.

awkwardbydesign

30-11-2015, 12:59

I'd suggest that appreciation of music and the ability to speak and understand language are not directly related. The type of music we like may be culturally determined but I think that the appreciation of it is innate, like the appreciation of birdsong.

Do you really find a sensitivity at 8khz to be a major issue? I would have thought not since that is quite a high frequency and beyond the range of most musical instruments.

Sibilance is a major problem, and harmonics go higher too. Other people often don't know what I am talking about, as they just don't hear it. The old CRT TV's line whistle at around 16kHz used to be agony, where others couldn't even hear it! In a related issue, I used to be unable to hear the phone were I worked when everyone else could; there was so much higher frequency machine noise the lower frequency phone was masked for me. But when I used earplugs the phone was clearly audible.
And my point about neural pathways was to demonstrate that we don't all hear the same things, in fact for some it is impossible to hear certain sounds. Our bodies are different, including our brains.
Although simple answers are attractive, they are frequently inadequate, unfortunately.

Marco

30-11-2015, 13:01

I don't understand general or special relativity properly, and I am unable either to do the measurements or the maths personally to confirm that the Universe is 13.7 billion years old or 93 billion light years across (as of yesterday) - but I am prepared to accept Brian Cox, Stephen Hawking and others do understand it, and as with Owens explanations of mains cables, nothing in my experience requires me to challenge them on their understanding.

But, ultimately, what do you rely on *more*, when building your hi-fi system and/or assessing the efficacy of any cables or equipment: 'The Gospel According to Owen', or what your own ears and experience tell you? ;)

Which is your FINAL arbiter? :)

Marco.

Ali Tait

30-11-2015, 13:05

Sibilance is a major problem, and harmonics go higher too. Other people often don't know what I am talking about, as they just don't hear it. The old CRT TV's line whistle at around 16kHz used to be agony, where others couldn't even hear it! In a related issue, I used to be unable to hear the phone were I worked when everyone else could; there was so much higher frequency machine noise the lower frequency phone was masked for me. But when I used earplugs the phone was clearly audible.
And my point about neural pathways was to demonstrate that we don't all hear the same things, in fact for some it is impossible to hear certain sounds. Our bodies are different, including our brains.
Although simple answers are attractive, they are frequently inadequate, unfortunately.

I used to have the same problem with CRT tellies..

Macca

30-11-2015, 13:20

Although simple answers are attractive, they are frequently inadequate, unfortunately.

I'm basing this on my own experience over decades of listening to many types of music on many systems with many different people. If the system sounds poor there is never anything but a universal agreement on this. Likewise if it sounds good there is never any dissension.

Obviously you have to remove the possibility that a few people may be too polite to express a negative opinion if the system owner is present (or even if they are not) also the system owner can sometimes be in denial. But given those exceptions opinion tends to be otherwise uniform on the quality of the sound. The presentation of the sound is something different and it is there that you will get disagreements and occasionally a confusion between the two.

The other occasion is on forums when someone says (for e.g) 'I love Linn Kans and another says 'They are the worst speaker ever' - which means 'I heard them in a crap system' or 'I don't like the way they present the music'. But it doesn't mean the two people 'hear differently' as although this may be an amicable way to settle the debate it is highly unlikely they would be 'wired' so differently.

Marco

30-11-2015, 13:34

Any views on my post #94? :)

Marco.

struth

30-11-2015, 13:43

Better over spec-ed than under. Whether it makes any audible difference is obviously subjective but certainly wont hurt. More important to me is good tight connections which will improve things imo.clean stable mains and good connections are the biggest boon to audio or video. Most TTs like a steady 50hz so providing that will help too. The less amount of cables and proper routing, the less potential there is for interference too.

Oldpinkman

30-11-2015, 13:53

But, ultimately, what do you rely on *more*, when building your hi-fi system and/or assessing the efficacy of any cables or equipment: 'The Gospel According to Owen', or what your own ears and experience tell you? ;)

Which is your FINAL arbiter? :)

Marco.

My ears and experience. That's why I tried the shielded mains cables. And speaker cables. And interconnects. (He has many moments of "it could do, but I doubt it would be enough to notice" - where we diverge)

I think returning to a point Jez made somewhere, not only does his science explain things with a high degree of reliability, but it enables him to produce first class results with things that your average Joe soap can't just dabble with. I have enjoyed "home brew" solutions (like a kitchen worktop offcut as a shelf on a brick wall for mounting a turntable) - but the boy Jones has produced some stunning results with amplifiers which require a bit more knowledge, and hundreds of hours of time testing.

Marco

30-11-2015, 13:55

Better over spec-ed than under. Whether it makes any audible difference is obviously subjective but certainly wont hurt.

Yup, that's precisely my view - and I've not failed to hear a difference yet, although the level of improvement gained by adopting that policy depends on what it is and where it's applied. Obviously, therefore, the sonic gains of over-speccing a mains lead won't be anything like what's achievable by doing the same thing to the PSU in an amplifier.

However... In my experience, *everything* that is part of the mains power chain has some sort of audible effect on the noise that comes out of your speakers, to a greater or lesser degree. Therefore, it's a question of how keen you are to 'max things out' to the best of your ability, and within the realms of practicality, which is why I've done what I've done, as the audible benefits for me have warranted the effort :)

I can assure anyone here who's heard my system that a BIG part of why it sounds so good is because of the work I've carried out in this area ;)

Marco.

Marco

30-11-2015, 14:03

My ears and experience. That's why I tried the shielded mains cables. And speaker cables. And interconnects. (He has many moments of "it could do, but I doubt it would be enough to notice" - where we diverge)

That's good (and rather refreshing to know). I take your point about Owen, and respect it.

Trouble is, too many folk out there rely on some form of 'guru' to TELL them what to do with hi-fi, either through laziness, lack of confidence in their 'audiophile abilities', or worse, because they obstinately insist on being governed by scientific dogma.

IMO, none of those types of people will ever own a truly superb sounding hi-fi system, because to create that, you must at *some point* trust your ears!! ;)

Marco.

Macca

30-11-2015, 14:09

Any views on my post #94? :)

Marco.

'It's a chunkier lead so it must be better'? ;)

To the best of my knowledge electricity doesn't work that way or fitting a chunkier lead to your kettle would boil it faster. I'm a big fan of over-engineering for the sake of it but not when it is going to cost me an extra £800 or whatever. You are in position where you have maxed out everything else that matters more, but that is not typical.

Oldpinkman

30-11-2015, 14:10

Not so sure about Brian Cox he still thinks man-made climate change is real ;)

So do quite a few folk in Paris. I gather if you do something pragmatic like walk along the shore in some pacific islands or around the Arctic circle, the coast isn't where it was. I guess it won't trouble you too much if you are wrong since you won't live to see the consequences.

But my kids might mind.

I think this is one of those areas where there is a universal scientific consensus, with only "fringe" scientists (and a bunch of Jeremy Clarksons) dissenting

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-02-08/?gclid=CjwKEAiAhPCyBRCtwMDS5tzT03gSJADZ8VjRJeC38Od iwbqFnzrkkjM3eCE9u9YxJkUGP73BydwX9hoCzzfw_wcB#feat ure

As for Owen - yup. He would take Jez's view.

Macca

30-11-2015, 14:15

So do quite a few folk in Paris. I gather if you do something pragmatic like walk along the shore in some pacific islands or around the Arctic circle, the coast isn't where it was. .

And if you took a time machine trip back 10,000 years the arctic circle began at Luton....

You are a bit out of touch with events in the past couple of years. Scientists who want to protect what is left of their reputation are backing away from the whole thing. Not that there ever was any 'scientific consensus'; that was just another lie.

awkwardbydesign

30-11-2015, 14:17

I'm basing this on my own experience over decades of listening to many types of music on many systems with many different people. If the system sounds poor there is never anything but a universal agreement on this. Likewise if it sounds good there is never any dissension.

Obviously you have to remove the possibility that a few people may be too polite to express a negative opinion if the system owner is present (or even if they are not) also the system owner can sometimes be in denial. But given those exceptions opinion tends to be otherwise uniform on the quality of the sound. The presentation of the sound is something different and it is there that you will get disagreements and occasionally a confusion between the two.

The other occasion is on forums when someone says (for e.g) 'I love Linn Kans and another says 'They are the worst speaker ever' - which means 'I heard them in a crap system' or 'I don't like the way they present the music'. But it doesn't mean the two people 'hear differently' as although this may be an amicable way to settle the debate it is highly unlikely they would be 'wired' so differently.

My experience is very different.

Marco

30-11-2015, 14:19

'It's a chunkier lead so it must be better'? ;)

Nope, not at all, and you should know me better than that. It's 'chunkier', and over-specced, for valid electrical reasons, which have nothing to do with aesthetics. Think of it this way: is the wire inside your wall, coming from your CU to your mains sockets, or from the sub-station to your house, as thin and weedy as that contained inside a kettle lead? ;)

To the best of my knowledge electricity doesn't work that way or fitting a chunkier lead to your kettle would boil it faster. I'm a big fan of over-engineering for the sake of it but not when it is going to cost me an extra £800 or whatever. You are in position where you have maxed out everything else that matters more, but that is not typical.

At the end of the day, it's a case (as ever) of each to his or her own. I subscribe to the school of max-out/modify/optimise every part of a hi-fi system, from mains to speakers (as far as your budget allows), as that's the way you end up with something truly special - and I don't 'do' mediocre... :)

Marco.

struth

30-11-2015, 14:21

And if you took a time machine trip back 10,000 years the arctic circle began at Luton....

You are a bit out of touch with events in the past couple of years. Scientists who want to protect what is left of their reputation are backing away from the whole thing. Not that there ever was any 'scientific consensus'; that was just another lie.

It was always a semi lie. Enough truth to hide the con. Alas it grew and has a life of its own now. There are many thi!gs that contribute to global warming...we are just one of them....imo that is

Macca

30-11-2015, 15:03

My experience is very different.

well, go on then......

Marco

30-11-2015, 16:09

The 'experience' in question involves wearing his wife's knickers [and one day she caught him], so he's too shy to say! :o :eyebrows:

Marco.

awkwardbydesign

30-11-2015, 16:09

well, go on then......

This - "I'm basing this on my own experience over decades of listening to many types of music on many systems with many different people. If the system sounds poor there is never anything but a universal agreement on this. Likewise if it sounds good there is never any dissension."
Not my experience. Anyway, I don't think we are going to agree on hearing, so there is not much point going round in circles with it.

Macca

30-11-2015, 16:42

Maybe, maybe not but I would still be interested to read your opposing viewpoint.

awkwardbydesign

30-11-2015, 17:36

Maybe, maybe not but I would still be interested to read your opposing viewpoint.

What, again?

Marco

30-11-2015, 17:57

He's a glutton for punishment ;)

Marco.

cloth-ears

30-11-2015, 20:31

The 'experience' in question involves wearing his wife's knickers [and one day she caught him], so he's too shy to say! :o :eyebrows:

Marco.

Thank god it's not just me who does that :D

Marco

30-11-2015, 20:42

Yesh, the secret is not to get caught, by stretching her French knickers...... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Yomanze

01-12-2015, 15:06

'It's a chunkier lead so it must be better'? ;)

To the best of my knowledge electricity doesn't work that way or fitting a chunkier lead to your kettle would boil it faster. I'm a big fan of over-engineering for the sake of it but not when it is going to cost me an extra £800 or whatever. You are in position where you have maxed out everything else that matters more, but that is not typical.

Even a Krell KSA-250, an absolute brute of an amplifier, "only" draws 12 amps continuous from the wall. This is about as bad as it gets, about as much as a kettle or hairdryer...

Yomanze

01-12-2015, 15:13

and I've not failed to hear a difference yet

...are you not concerned about confirmation / expectation bias if you always hear a difference?

mikmas

01-12-2015, 15:40

Even a Krell KSA-250, an absolute brute of an amplifier, "only" draws 12 amps continuous from the wall. This is about as bad as it gets, about as much as a kettle or hairdryer...

I'm very naive about electricity and amplification but always assumed that process of conversion from AC to DC and current regulation in the PSU would take care of any quirks in the mains supply

Arkless Electronics

01-12-2015, 15:52

I'm very naive about electricity and amplification but always assumed that process of conversion from AC to DC and current regulation in the PSU would take care of any quirks in the mains supply

It does. It's generally voltage regulation rather than current regulation BTW but both are/can be used in hi fi amps. They are the opposite of each other though.

Marco

01-12-2015, 16:20

...are you not concerned about confirmation / expectation bias if you always hear a difference?

Hi Neil,

I consider it, of course, and allow for it as best as I can. I don't obsess over these things, though. I find those who do are generally a bit weird and too nerdy/geeky, for my liking. I accept my human failings, but ultimately I'm happy to trust my senses. For me, that's just normal behaviour.

So, ultimately, I'll always trust my ears (and those of my friends who are usually present). When anything major is being tested, we always have a group sesh, as two or three pairs of ears/different opinions are often better than one :)

Marco.

Audio Advent

02-12-2015, 17:10

Even a Krell KSA-250, an absolute brute of an amplifier, "only" draws 12 amps continuous from the wall. This is about as bad as it gets, about as much as a kettle or hairdryer...

That's about 2900 Watts.. That's one hell of a hair dryer or kettle! More like a cooker hob with all rings turned on.

Also that would show how inefficient big amps are - what's the actual max output of the KSA-250?

Audio Advent

02-12-2015, 17:19

When anything major is being tested, we always have a group sesh, as two or three pairs of ears/different opinions are often better than one :)

Marco.

As per the program linked to - the bigger the group all with the same mind set, the more out of control the confirmation bias becomes!

There is nothing more powerfully convincing that something is real than just one single person confirming a real delusion... I recall a story (also on the radio) of a US WWII pilot and his two wingmen flying further out to sea to their deaths, all seemingly convinced that their instruments were all wrong and they were really heading towards land as their fuel ran out. On an individual basis, at least one might question that assertion but hearing "confirmation" that the delusion is real, suddenly one sees the delusion too.

Much like the backwards records giving out instructions from the devil to "smoke more pot" or whatever that US court was convinced of in the 70s or 80s. Once you are pointed to what the backward music is supposed to be saying, your brain kicks hear that imaginary sound out of the nonsense. No matter how you try from that point on, you can never not hear the "devil's voice". Just try it - plenty of examples on the internet to listen to. Again, a point made about similar confirmation bias in a specific context about the working of the brain on another Radio 4 program.

Out of interest - have you ever experienced someone in the group not hearing the difference? What has been your reaction, to question your own perception or to dismiss it and that listeners hearing ability (and never to be invited around again! :) )?

Audio Advent

02-12-2015, 19:12

I listened to the radio piece although I had my doubts from the beginning and they were confirmed ;)

Psychology is the worst of the pseudo-sciences. It extrapolates from the particular to the general. In this show various anecdotes are used to attempt to prove that there is a phenonomon called 'confirmation bias' which 'is everywhere' and which we are powerless against.

Two police officers are asked if they have ever arrested the wrong man and they say no. Well how do we know that is not true? Perfectly possible that they were correct.
Some people think they always look at their clock/phone when the time is 11.11 - proves nothing
An innocent man is held as a 9/11 suspect - like that was never going to happen - also both the arrested man and the interviewer seem blissfully unaware of standard interrogation techniques.

The only confirmation bias I see in this radio show is the confirmation bias that confirmation bias must exist. 'Psychologists say it does' - well sorry but I'm not convinced it does.

That's as strong an argument as are common arguments against evolution. Those arguments are based on critising some anecdotal piece intended to be light-weight, low-brow and entertaining whilst the MASS of evidence seen time and time and time again in a multitude of situations and environments throughout history is ignored and remains in the thousands of research papers from unconnected studies, conclusions reached independently by hundreds of researchers and all verified independently. Similar mindset in arguments against man made climate change when the evidence is so diverse and pervasive (but they could be experiencing some mass confirmation bias - which you don't believe in so that can be discounted! :) ). I see a theme in your outlook.

It is of course difficult for anyone to expose themselves to something which will pull down the walls of things on which they've based their outlook on life for decades and I feel like I see that in the world of hifi enthusiasts. Imagine the ego-hit of that realisation... ! Myself, it's not too important and in a sense I prefer finding myself uncertain of a situation - confusion is the first step to real learning and it's a sign of being open-minded. Embracing the possibility of confirmation bias as an explanation of personal experience can be liberating, certainly in liberating yourself from any particular blinkered outlook. Would probably save a few marriages too !

struth

02-12-2015, 19:19

Too many cynics in the world now for my liking..People need to rewire their brain for positivity.....man:D

Marco

02-12-2015, 19:48

It is of course difficult for anyone to expose themselves to something which will pull down the walls of things on which they've based their outlook on life for decades and I feel like I see that in the world of hifi enthusiasts.

Spot on, and that attitude certainly prevails on hi-fi forums. The problem is that certain comfort zones seem just too cosy to leave! ;)

Myself, it's not too important and in a sense I prefer finding myself uncertain of a situation - confusion is the first step to real learning and it's a sign of being open-minded. Embracing the possibility of confirmation bias as an explanation of personal experience can be liberating, certainly in liberating yourself from any particular blinkered outlook. Would probably save a few marriages too !

I agree. Fear of uncertainty [that which exists outside of the 'black and white' world of binary thinking] is a fundamental trait of the 'objectivist' mindset, as is not learning to live with our human failings in a way that doesn't resemble one continually behaving as a 'scientific test subject' :rolleyes:

The fact is, we're ALL on a constant learning curve in this game, as very little in the world of audio, outside of the immediately obvious, is a 'done deal' - and some folk need to start learning to embrace and accept that fact.

Marco.

Marco

02-12-2015, 19:49

Too many cynics in the world now for my liking..People need to rewire their brain for positivity.....man:D

Hear, hear - and boring, joy-dissolving old malcontents! ;)

Scepticism is healthy, eternal cynicism isn't.

Marco.

Marco

02-12-2015, 20:34

Sorry, Sam. I missed this:

As per the program linked to - the bigger the group all with the same mind set, the more out of control the confirmation bias becomes!

Indeed. Fortunately, not all of my friends have the same mindset. They are also forthright in their views (there are no shrinking violets), and certainly aren't afraid of expressing a contrary opinion. We don't do these things to have a cosy group hug... ;)

Out of interest - have you ever experienced someone in the group not hearing the difference?

Yes, all the time. We sometimes also disagree about what we hear and/or prioritise certain aspects of the sonic/musical presentation, of whatever is being tested, differently.

What has been your reaction, to question your own perception or to dismiss it and that listeners hearing ability (and never to be invited around again! :) )?

Lol! Nah, nothing like that.

We value each other's observations and try to use them to learn something useful about what we've subjectively tested. Above all though, we like to have a good laugh and enjoy the music and banter. The whole point is to have FUN! :cool:

We leave the white lab coats and blindfolds to others....

Marco.

Macca

03-12-2015, 08:52

That's as strong an argument as are common arguments against evolution. Those arguments are based on critising some anecdotal piece intended to be light-weight, low-brow and entertaining whilst the MASS of evidence seen time and time and time again in a multitude of situations and environments throughout history is ignored and remains in the thousands of research papers from unconnected studies, conclusions reached independently by hundreds of researchers and all verified independently. Similar mindset in arguments against man made climate change when the evidence is so diverse and pervasive (but they could be experiencing some mass confirmation bias - which you don't believe in so that can be discounted! :) ). I see a theme in your outlook.

!

If there is a theme in my outlook it is 'question everything'. Science and scientists are not infallible and often have agendas other than seeking the truth - as the man made climate change debacle has demonstrated. Incidentally I used to take that as gospel and was right behind it until a few things that didn't sit right caused me to investigate further.

Likewise 'Confirmation Bias' needn't be accepted as gospel. Especially not when the 'science' involved here is Psychology. Science can observe and it can draw conclusions but the conclusions drawn are not necessarily the truth even if they do appear to be a convenient fit with the observations.

You rely on your judgement and your senses when deciding at what point you should pull out onto a busy roundabout, every day without even considering it despite the fact that if you get it wrong by a split second the consequences could be disastrous and fatal. Yet when relaxing in your own home and deciding if a tweak to your audio system is better, worse or no change; all of a sudden your senses are so confused that you can't be sure which way is up?