The Joy of Motoring?

[Puffin]

I was born when cars were in the minority but on the up and we were encouraged to sample "The Joy of Motoring". Fast forward 50 years when there are a Zillion cars on the road, stricter enforcement of speed limits and in real terms the cost of motoring is far far greater.

Can one still enjoy the joy of motoring? Driving habits have changed so much since I passed my test (1972) that the way some (old and new) drive bears no resemblance to the way I was taught. "Make good progress so as not to impede the passage of other road users", "be courteous" etc etc.

I drive as a part time job during peak hours morning and evening and how some "drive" beggars belief. Did they learn to drive because they had a passion for it, or was it simply to get from A-B? For the most part it seems that they have no desire to be master of their car, for some it seems a frightening experience and they manage the journey by luck and not judgment. It is clear that for some the car is driving them and they are helpless to understand why, or to control it as it should be.

Am I just a miserable git? Oh......I still love driving and see it as a challenge, but the joy of daily driving has long gone.

[dantheman91]

Having only passed my test in august this year i STILL have LOT to learn but i see your point of view i love driving but sometimes it can be stressful due to the reason stated above. I am not the best driver by far i am still learning every journey is different. I passed to try new adventures but all i am doing at the moment is going from work to work and home and the cost of petrol in doing that is quite a lot.:eek:

[Marco]

You need to move further north, Rob! Round my way, especially out in the country, most of the roads are dead (apart from in Wrexham town centre), and you can have some lovely relaxing drives, taking in stunning scenery, especially around Snowdonia :)

Motorway driving, almost anywhere though, is tedious and utterly soul-destroying! I don't know how anyone copes with the M25 - utterly shocking traffic jams... :rolleyes:

Marco.

[walpurgis]

You should see the driving around here Rob. Loads on mobiles and so many that don't have a clue how to drive in any case. Then there are the younger drivers. Why, when you live in an area with more speed humps than anywhere else, would you lower your car so much that you can't negotiate them? Morons!

[archiesdad]

You need to move further north, Rob! Round my way, especially out in the country, most of the roads are dead (apart from in Wrexham town centre), and you can have some lovely relaxing drives, taking in stunning scenery, especially around Snowdonia :)

Motorway driving, almost anywhere though, is tedious and utterly soul-destroying! I don't know how anyone copes with the M25 - utterly shocking traffic jams... :rolleyes:

Marco.

You want to try coming even further North, empty roads stunning scenery and plod non existent or in Land Rovers.:eyebrows:

[Puffin]

You need to move further north, Rob! Round my way, especially out in the country, most of the roads are dead (apart from in Wrexham town centre), and you can have some lovely relaxing drives, taking in stunning scenery, especially around Snowdonia :)

Motorway driving, almost anywhere though, is tedious and utterly soul-destroying! I don't know how anyone copes with the M25 - utterly shocking traffic jams... :rolleyes:

Marco.

There are a few roads left round here where you can enjoy the open road (if you get lucky) and take advantage of sweeping bends and 60MPH straights. What frustrates me is that despite the potential for spirited driving, you get the "I only drive at one speed" knobs that know you will be there and f*"k it all up for you:rolleyes:

Geoff. I had a mild MLC (mid-life crisis) and bought a Clio Sport Cup about 12 years ago. Wanting it to sound as fast it went I bought a very expensive SS twin bore exhaust from a specialist. Sounded ok....ish at speeds up to 80, but at 80.....BOOOOOOOOMMMMMM.......like a very bloody boomy thing. Horrendous, but that wasn't the only problem. My son was living in Ealing at the time and of course there were bloody speed humps everywhere, even if I crawled over them it would scrape the top of them. So it was a very short lived and very expensive mistake.

[Marco]

You want to try coming even further North, empty roads stunning scenery and plod non existent or in Land Rovers.:eyebrows:

Hi Martin,

I was born and brought up in Scotland, so know what you mean. Trust me though, there are parts of north and west Wales that are every bit as remote (and as beautiful) as the remotest areas of Scotland! ;)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

My son was living in Ealing at the time and of course there were bloody speed humps everywhere, even if I crawled over them it would scrape the top of them.

HeHe. It was me that put in the majority of those humps in the Ealing area when they were first introduced. I was in charge of the project and contractors. Not that I like the damn things. It was just another job!

I had to take care myself when I had my Hyundai Coupe a few years ago. There was only about 80mm ground clearance at the front. Great car though, 2.7 V6 version.

[Puffin]

HeHe. It was me that put in the majority of those humps in the Ealing area when they were first introduced. I was in charge of the project and contractors. Not that I like the damn things. It was just another job!

Haha....Nice one.

[Marco]

Hi Rob,


What frustrates me is that despite the potential for spirited driving, you get the "I only drive at one speed" knobs that know you will be there and f*"k it all up for you:rolleyes:


Tell me about it, the self-appointed Traffic Police - I LOATHE those wankaz with a passion!! Utterly useless wastes of oxygen.


Geoff. I had a mild MLC (mid-life crisis) and bought a Clio Sport Cup about 12 years ago. Wanting it to sound as fast it went I bought a very expensive SS twin bore exhaust from a specialist. Sounded ok....ish at speeds up to 80, but at 80.....BOOOOOOOOMMMMMM.......like a very bloody boomy thing. Horrendous...


Lol - that's quite funny! Your mistake, daftee, was to go for a 'hot hatch' and not a bigger, proper fast car with a larger engine, enabling you to go fast, effortlessly, and in some style! :eyebrows:


...but that wasn't the only problem. My son was living in Ealing at the time and of course there were bloody speed humps everywhere, even if I crawled over them it would scrape the top of them. So it was a very short lived and very expensive mistake.

I know exactly what you mean, as my Brabster has lowered sports suspension and can *just* make it over most speed bumps, at a crawling pace... I hate speed bumps almost as much as I do self-appointed Traffic Police!

Speed bumps: created for idiots, who use roads for the wrong reasons. As usual, normal folk in the majority, capable of driving properly, have to suffer because of a minority of imbeciles..... :rolleyes:

However, up here, you only find speed bumps outside of schools, occasionally in town centres, or in areas where the lower-orders live! ;)

Marco.

[Puffin]

I wanted something fast, but not spend the earth (1 year old - £10,000). The power to weight ratio was excellent (172bhp/around 1,000kg) It was an itch that was scratched and I had a ball, apart of course from being exhausted:D

[Marco]

Fair enough, but £10k would've gotten you a pretty decent second hand M3 - just as much fun, IMO, but fun in some style (and with class)! ;)

For example: http://www.desperateseller.co.uk/cars-for-sale/advert/39504369/111949

You wouldn't have gotten "exhausted" in that!

Marco.

[Puffin]

Yea nice motahs. I am what you would call "safe" and a used BMW to me could spell all sorts of expensive bills, especially a performance model that could have been given too many beans:eek: Despite BMW's solid reputation.

My son's former career as a journalist gave me the opportunity to drive some "cheap" hotties, a Seat Leon Cupra R and a 225bhp Golf GTI. The Seat was a real wolf in sheeps clothing.

[Marco]

Yup, I hear ya, dude. Each to his or her own, I'm just not really into 'hot hatches', much as I can admire their purpose... Or let me rephrase that, lest I give the wrong impression: I like them, but wouldn't want one as my only car, as it wouldn't be practical :)

If I'm only going to have the one car, then it must tick these boxes (taking reliability as a given), in no specific order:

1) Be effortlessly smooth and comfortable, over long distances.
2) Have four doors (for housing up to 3 passengers comfortably), and a big boot (for housing large quantities of wine/food, during trips abroad).
3) Be HUGE FUN to drive, and reasonably fast, most importantly in terms of torque and acceleration.
4) Look sporty.
5) Produce decent fuel economy and long engine life.
6) Have a diesel engine, in order to deliver 5) above, and also 3) above, in terms of torque.

That's why I bought my Brabster, as it ticks all those boxes with considerable aplomb!

In terms of running and repair costs for these types of cars (M3s and the like), you're spot on. That's why you can't just factor in the initial cost of buying the car. You've got to hold back at least another £5k, and keep it as an 'emergency fund', for anything expensive that could go wrong, not to mention take out a good warranty policy.

I've probably spent not far off the latter on 'bits and pieces' for my car, since I've bought it, just to ensure that it's spot on and functioning at as near as possible at 100% of its original capability.

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Nothing brings the worst out in me more than driving these days, i still have a pasion for all things mechanical and motorised etc, but driving is quickly losing its apeal lately, its just the sheer volume of traffic, and the idiots behind the majority of it, mobile phone use while driving, ohh, dont get me started on that one!:steam:
Find a good road, and a decent car, and all that changes though. :)

[Marco]

Hi Anthony,

Because you've got cities, such as Cardiff and Swansea near you, not to mention very large towns, such as Merthyr Tydfil, etc, whenever I've been down your way, I've noticed how much busier the roads are there, than they are up here. Honestly, once you're outside of Wrexham, and stay inside Wales, then out with of 'rush hour' in some towns, you pretty much get the roads to yourself :)

Ridiculously crowded roads and confusion is also something we notice when travelling down to the south of England, say to Dover, when we're on our way to France.

Once we leave the M54 and join the M6, at Birmingham, we can kiss goodbye to quiet roads, and relaxing, stress-free driving - and the further south we go, nearer London, the traffic levels get progressively worse, culminating in the huge, soul-destroying 'car park' that is the M25! :rolleyes:

I simply couldn't cope with having to negotiate that shite every day to and from my work (or worse, having to endure the utter tedium of public transport and mingling with the unwashed lower orders)!! :nono: :nono:

I'd be reaching for a razor blade and opening up my veins.............. ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

Sometimes it can take me an hour to get home by car and it is only 6 miles.

Walking it only takes an hour and a quarter.

It just takes one accident on the A500 and the whole city gridlocks. And it seems like every other day some idiot manages to collide with someone else or a barrier or something. The other day it was a lorry shedding a load of fuel.

Having said that I used to work from home and it bored me silly.

[Marco]

Lol - I love it! Nice peace and quiet, apart from when the cats miaow when they want fed, inside in the warm - and most importantly, no one breathing down my neck telling me what to do! :)

I can listen to music, while working (these days I only service hotel and nursing home contracts, for artwork, as they pay well and are largely hassle-free), so most days I'm free to do what I want, go and visit friends or family, go into Chester and buy some records, or take a nice drive in the country, maybe have a pub lunch with my dad, and then get the house ready and log fire prepared and lit, for Del coming home from college - and if she's been good, perhaps treat her to dinner! :eyebrows:

In all honestly, I enjoy a stress-free, fairly leisurely lifestyle, and am perfectly happy with 'my lot', so can't complain at all :cool:

Marco.

[Beobloke]

It's funny - I find the type of car I'm driving changes my driving style and, thus my enjoyment, quite a bit. If I'm driving something sporty then I do find myself driving faster, overtaking slower cars more and generally getting irate with people who I perceive to be "in my way". On the other hand, with an empty A road and a sunny day this is exactly the sort of car that is perfect and makes driving a pleasure.

However, my Range Rover is a giant motorised leather sofa with supremely comfortable seats, great heating and air conditioning and a superb sound system and I find it much easier just to waft along at a sensible speed and watch everyone else getting wound up and angry. As has been pointed out, its an ideal car for the general motoring conditions one encounters in the south of England. My wife, for example, has a 40 minute drive along the A27 to Chichester for work each day and, on the odd occasion when I've taken her to work, the appalling standard of driving means I generally arrive home in a foul mood, spitting feathers and ready to hurt someone! How she does it each day and remain sane, I have no idea. Cynics might suggest she's had good practice at remaining sane under duress by being married to me - I couldn't possibly comment...

And finally, if I'm driving anything with a diesel engine then I just try to stay focused until the whole sorry experience is over! :D

[Marco]

Lol... Why are you so anti-diesel, Adam?

Modern diesel engines are superb, and have many advantages (some of which I've mentioned) over petrol ones. I don't 'get' your beef, so enlighten me, oh great one! :D

If you drove it, I doubt you'd even notice that my car was diesel (until you felt the rather impressive torque delivery), because it certainly doesn't sound like a stereotypical one.

Marco.

[awkwardbydesign]

Lol - I love it! Nice peace and quiet, apart from when the cats miaow when they want fed, inside in the warm - and most importantly, no one breathing down my neck telling me what to do! :)

Marco.
Not married then?

[Marco]

Lol... Yes (very happily for nearly 24 years), thanks! :)

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Lol... Why are you so anti-diesel, Adam?

Modern diesel engines are superb, and have many advantages (some of which I've mentioned) over petrol ones. I don't 'get' your beef, so enlighten me, oh great one! :D

If you drove it, I doubt you'd even notice that my car was diesel (until you felt the rather impressive torque delivery), because it certainly doesn't sound like a stereotypical one.

Marco.

It's simple, really Marco - I dislike the whole diesel driving experience. Particularly -

- Filling up with the filthy, stinking stuff
- Running out of revs at 4500-5000 rpm
- The fact that there is always a rev point below which you put your foot down and absolutely nothing happens (it's getting lower gradually, admittedly, but it's still there)
- Admittedly this only applies to manual gearbox versions but take the two items above and you find yourself endlessly changing gear to keep the engine within the action zone.
- Turbo lag (even the very best turbo diesel engines I've driven still have it)
- Parts costs - from my own experience, a starter motor for 2.3 Ford petrol engine was £93. The starter motor for 2.0 Ford TDCi engine - £370.
- The fact that people who drive diesels think "If you drove mine you'd never know it was a diesel". No, really - I would! ;)

I can understand diesel from a fuel cost point of view but that's about it. Mrs. B is on her second because she has a company car but she has to pay for her own fuel - on that basis, she'd be daft to be doing 35 mpg compared to 55 mpg when she does 20,000 miles per year. Frankly, though, that's about it.

I've no doubt your Brabus is about as good as it gets when it comes to tractor fuel but, as I think I've mentioned before, in your shoes I'd have bought a C63AMG instead. Then again, I only do about 7000 miles per year!

[Ali Tait]

Best of both worlds- buy a big petrol engined car and LPG it..

[CageyH]

Or have 2 cars.
Diesel uber-barge for long distance work.
Small, powerful, nimble and lightweight petrol car for pure driving fun.

[Beobloke]

Best of both worlds- buy a big petrol engined car and LPG it..

Like non-original wheel trims, LPG is for cads! :)

[walpurgis]

Like non-original wheel trims, LPG is for cads! :)

I fit non original cheap wheel trims, as being largely a town driver, I pick up a few kerb nicks in the trims, so I keep the fairly costly originals in the garage and chew up the cheapies.

I don't like LPG. Not that many places selling it and it's caused a power loss on every car I've tried with it fitted. The consumption is far worse than petrol or diesel, but it works out a little cheaper.

I quite like old non turbo diesel cars. You don't go anywhere particularly quickly, but they're very flexible and there's no waiting for power to come in and they're always good on fuel. OK if you just want to get from A to B. My old Golf diesel estate was a good comfy old cruiser that did 60mpg.

These days, I'm using sub 1000cc motors. They're not as slow or noisy as they used to be and they're dirt cheap to run. I run two for less than the cost of one 1.8 litre car for instance.

[Marco]

Hi Adam,

Ok, fair enough. However, let's go through this, and I'll comment on what is and isn't relevant in my circumstances:




- Filling up with the filthy, stinking stuff


Put on some gloves (as provided by all decent filling stations) and stop behaving like a girl! :ner:


- Running out of revs at 4500-5000 rpm


Eh?? That simply doesn't happen with my car. In sport mode, it revs like a demented bastard in each gear, right up and well into the red zone!


- The fact that there is always a rev point below which you put your foot down and absolutely nothing happens (it's getting lower gradually, admittedly, but it's still there)


Depends what you mean by "put your foot down"... If you floor it quickly (either from a standing start or in any gear whilst moving), then within a nanosecond, you're pinned back into your seat, the front end of the car tips up with the surge, as the back wheels grip the road, and the car takes off like a rocket!

There is no 'nothing happens" at any point in the rev band. You just need to blip the accelerator pedal, and the engine changes down a gear and responds instantly, accordingly.


- Admittedly this only applies to manual gearbox versions but take the two items above and you find yourself endlessly changing gear to keep the engine within the action zone.


The car is an automatic, so that's a non-issue.


- Turbo lag (even the very best turbo diesel engines I've driven still have it)


It depends what you're trying to do. If you're cruising along at, say, 50mph, in seventh gear, with very low revs (at that speed in my car, in 7th gear, it would be around 1000rpm), and all of a sudden floor it, there would be a "lag" of about a second before you were shoved back in your seat and the car takes off. Otherwise, there is no discernible "lag".

Ensuring that your car's engine is kept tuned to perfection (and the right fuel and oil are used) is critical, in order for that effect to be maintained.


- Parts costs - from my own experience, a starter motor for 2.3 Ford petrol engine was £93. The starter motor for 2.0 Ford TDCi engine - £370.


Yup, undoubtedly all parts for diesel engines cost more, *BUT* it's because the engines last longer, can take more abuse, and increase the value of the car as a result! ;)

And then there's all that lovely TORQUE, enabling big diesel engines to pull like a train, which makes similar-sized petrol engined cars feel like weenie-toys in comparison!! :D


- The fact that people who drive diesels think "If you drove mine you'd never know it was a diesel". No, really - I would!


In reality, with mine, you probably could - just!

But I can assure you that I've had a number of 'petrol heads', who own sports cars, as passengers in the Brabster, and they all comment that it's the most un-diesel like car (in a bad sense) they've ever been in, and that the automatic gearbox is a cracker, as it's smooth to a fault, responds rapidly, and promotes fun driving.

Their opinion of that is further reinforced when they get in the driving seat instead! :eyebrows:


I've no doubt your Brabus is about as good as it gets when it comes to tractor fuel but, as I think I've mentioned before, in your shoes I'd have bought a C63 AMG instead. Then again, I only do about 7000 miles per year!

Well, much as I love the C63, like I said, at least five or six times a year, I drive long distances, either abroad to France, Italy and Germany, or up to Scotland/Newcastle, so how many miles to the gallon do you think I'd get on those journeys with a C63 AMG - 20 MPG, maybe, on a good day? :eek:

If I keep under 75mph, on motorways, in good conditions I can get about 43 MPG, with the Brabster - and that's from a 3.5L engine! :cool:

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Eh?? That simply doesn't happen with my car. In sport mode, it revs like a demented bastard in each gear, right up and well into the red zone!


Yes, but where does that red zone start? According to the pictures of a C350CDi dashboard I was just looking at - 4200rpm. A proper engine is just coming on song at this point! :D

[Marco]

Lol... Well, everything in life is a compromise. Some women say that they like 10 inches, but if you give them a good 8, and know how to use them, you can still usually put a smile on their face! And if she likes you enough, she'll 'compromise'... :lol: :eyebrows:

Seriously though, I know where you're coming from, but ultimately it's all a trade off. I'll take the torquey lunacy, longevity and fuel economy of a nice big diesel engine, any day, over what a petrol car of similar specification would offer. YMMV :)

Like I said, with having only one main car (my wife has a little A-Class Merc), and not the luxury of choosing a car for one SPECIFIC purpose, i.e. an all-out, and impractical, sports car (which I never intended to have), then the Brabster ticks all the right boxes for me.

If I was going for an all-out sports car, within what I could realistically afford (and I may do it one day), I'd go for the new Porsche 911! :cool:

Marco.

[struth]

I fit non original cheap wheel trims, as being largely a town driver, I pick up a few kerb nicks in the trims, so I keep the fairly costly originals in the garage and chew up the cheapies.

I don't like LPG. Not that many places selling it and it's caused a power loss on every car I've tried with it fitted. The consumption is far worse than petrol or diesel, but it works out a little cheaper.

I quite like old non turbo diesel cars. You don't go anywhere particularly quickly, but they're very flexible and there's no waiting for power to come in and they're always good on fuel. OK if you just want to get from A to B. My old Golf diesel estate was a good comfy old cruiser that did 60mpg.

These days, I'm using sub 1000cc motors. They're not as slow or noisy as they used to be and they're dirt cheap to run. I run two for less than the cost of one 1.8 litre car for instance.

Used to do that too...also the originals had a habit of being nicked as they were dear to buy.

[mossy]

Gotta drive what you are happy to actually pay for.

I drive a 20 year old Saab turbo but tweaked to give 300+bhp....costs zero per year in depreciation and can still put a big smile on my face

Four doors, big hatch, petrol, 40mpg if I am careful, supremely comfy and has oodles of wood

The fact that I CHOOSE to drive a 20 year old car is the key to enjoying it.

[Ali Tait]

I fit non original cheap wheel trims, as being largely a town driver, I pick up a few kerb nicks in the trims, so I keep the fairly costly originals in the garage and chew up the cheapies.

I don't like LPG. Not that many places selling it and it's caused a power loss on every car I've tried with it fitted. The consumption is far worse than petrol or diesel, but it works out a little cheaper.

I quite like old non turbo diesel cars. You don't go anywhere particularly quickly, but they're very flexible and there's no waiting for power to come in and they're always good on fuel. OK if you just want to get from A to B. My old Golf diesel estate was a good comfy old cruiser that did 60mpg.

These days, I'm using sub 1000cc motors. They're not as slow or noisy as they used to be and they're dirt cheap to run. I run two for less than the cost of one 1.8 litre car for instance.

Well I'm running a 4.0 Grand Cherokee, don't notice any power difference whatsoever between petrol and LPG. Gas actualy has a higher calorific value than petrol.

[Ali Tait]

Like non-original wheel trims, LPG is for cads! :)

How very dare you, are you suggesting I'm a cad??

[struth]

How very dare you, are you suggesting I'm a cad??

Lol.... :D Ali is a gentleman........most of the time;)

[walpurgis]

Well I'm running a 4.0 Grand Cherokee, don't notice any power difference whatsoever between petrol and LPG. Gas actualy has a higher calorific value than petrol.

I'm sure that it varies, but on the dual fuel Vauxhall and Ford company cars I used to drive at work, switching to LPG immediately brought in a very noticeable power loss. Needless to say, the LPG ended up only being used when the petrol was getting low.

[struth]

Sure things are better now but when gas re emerged in late 70's as a dual fuel for our company motors id say it was lower powered with poor mpg. Also wouldnt start in the cold if left overnight on gas.. You had to remember to switch to petrol before you finished at night in winter or you just had to call the garage lol.
Ours were ford escorts mostly

[Ali Tait]

I'm sure that it varies, but on the dual fuel Vauxhall and Ford company cars I used to drive at work, switching to LPG immediately brought in a very noticeable power loss. Needless to say, the LPG ended up only being used when the petrol was getting low.

Possibly down to the system fitted perhaps. Dunno if that makes a difference. It's a decent BRC multi point system in the Jeep. Supposedly one of the best systems around from what I've read.

[Ali Tait]

Sure things are better now but when gas re emerged in late 70's as a dual fuel for our company motors id say it was lower powered with poor mpg. Also wouldnt start in the cold if left overnight on gas.. You had to remember to switch to petrol before you finished at night in winter or you just had to call the garage lol.
Ours were ford escorts mostly

Mine does it automatically - starts on petrol, then switches over once the revs go above a certain level.

Nice being able to run a 4.0 petrol as cheaply as a 2.0 diesel. What's not to like?

Also have an app on my phone that shows the nearest LPG stations and will even navigate you there.

[CageyH]

Yes, but where does that red zone start? According to the pictures of a C350CDi dashboard I was just looking at - 4200rpm. A proper engine is just coming on song at this point! :D

There is a red zone on the tacho? What novel idea.
My engine rev limit exceeds my tacho limit. :eyebrows: The tacho stops at 8k, engine is good to 8.5k apparently.
You really don't need it all for road use though. You would not keep your license very long.

[Ali Tait]

Lol.... :D Ali is a gentleman........most of the time;)

It's a vicious rumour..

[CageyH]

You can't be a cad. You don't drive a Jag.

[Beobloke]

How very dare you, are you suggesting I'm a cad??

Absolutely. And very possibly a bounder and a rapscallion, too! :D

My distaste for LPG comes back to when I was buying my first Range Rover Classic. Many of these have been LPG converted and I was including them in my search but a friend of a friend, who is a classic car dealer, advised me to avoid them because his experience was that these "are often owned by people who can't really afford to run a Range Rover. If they're having to scrimp on fuel costs, they're probably scrimping on it in other ways, too". He seems to have a point as every LPG converted one I went to see was a complete and utter shed!

[Ali Tait]

You can't be a cad. You don't drive a Jag.

Used to! :D

[Ali Tait]

Absolutely. And very possibly a bounder and a rapscallion, too! :D

My distaste for LPG comes back to when I was buying my first Range Rover Classic. Many of these have been LPG converted and I was including them in my search but a friend of a friend, who is a classic car dealer, advised me to avoid them because his experience was that these "are often owned by people who can't really afford to run a Range Rover. If they're having to scrimp on fuel costs, they're probably scrimping on it in other ways, too". He seems to have a point as every LPG converted one I went to see was a complete and utter shed!

He may have had a point if it was a cheap system fitted, but decent ones are 2k plus. I wouldn't have bought the Jeep if it had a cheap system fitted. As it is, I paid less for the Jeep than the new cost of the LPG system..

Don't spend a lot on cars as I do high mileages.

[CageyH]

Used to! :D



You Sir, are indeed a cad and a bounder!

[Ali Tait]

Thanks! :-)

[Macca]

Terry - McThomas....

[Ali Tait]

:D