Croft Micro Basic 25 Valve Pre Amp [Archive]

Macca

10-10-2009, 12:41

Hi All

I've been living with this new pre-amp for a month or so now so thought I would share my experience of it - please note this is not a 'review' - I do not consider myself qualified to 'review' - it is simply my observations based on the performance in my system compared to what went before.

That said the system in use comprises Cambridge 840c CDP, Systemdex IIXe/Linn Basik Plus/Ortofon MK540 mkII > Croft pre > Linn Lk100 power > Celestion A2 'speakers. (The Croft replaces a Linn LK1).

The Croft is visually uninteresting being a standard width black metal box with a minimum of small white markings and a single green power-on LED, the whole thing doing a good job of disappearing entirely in low light which is a good thing IMHO. Inputs options comprise an MM phono stage and 3 more at line level. There are seperate pots for left and right volume (as I understand this gives better stereo seperation and overall quality) but as there are no calibration markings setting channel balance becomes a slight challenge.

The difference in presentation of the Croft compared to my Linn LK1 was marked from the off. The sound was much more solid and immediate - so much so that it crossed my mind that the Croft was perhaps glossing over fine details and simply spotlighting the main elements of the sound - but as I listened I realised that I was actually hearing just as much detail as with the Linn but with a much clearer, cleaner presentation - as though a whole load of muck that had been present before (but not noticeably) was now gone and only the music was left.

The second improvement over the Linn was 'tonality'. Now I hate hi-fi speak as much as the next man but there is no doubt that some systems/items of kit do a much better job of reproducing believable 'tone', be it from a guitar (electric or otherwise) drums, trumpet or human voice. I do not know how to describe this except as 'tonality'. The richness of the tonality through the Croft was something to behold - in fact I would go so far as to say that on some recordings it was positively 'magical'. For example I was listening to 'Take it Easy' from the Eagles first album (vinyl, original pressing in good nick) - the bass guitar was reproduced with a deep, warm 'thrum' that reminded me of the sound from those old valve powered juke boxes that all the pubs so foolishly junked back in the 'eighties. My original pressing Led Zep II now sounded so 'authentic' it was frightening - like travelling back in time to those old radiogram days - but with hi-fi quality!

I have to assume that this is all down to the use of valves - so now I know what Hi-Fi World have been banging on about all these years!

I do rate good tonality over stereo imaging (if I have to choose) but I do like to have a soundstage that is at least recognisably 'well ordered' if not holographic in nature. Again I would say that the Croft surpassed the old Linn in this respect - and with live recordings in particular; for example the 'Stones 'Get your Ya Ya's Out' on remastered CD had a superb 'live ambience' I have not heard before, although its not a great live recording IMHO).

With a good live recording like Erykah Badu - 'Baduizm Live' the venue, crowd, band, backing singers etc. came across as amazingly 'life like', the back wall of the room just dropping away, 'speakers dissolving, the whole soundstage just hanging in space. Lots of deep bass on this one, and I did think for a while that the Croft was possibly a little lighter in the bass than the Linn but after extensive listening I am fairly certain that it is just 'cleaner' and lacking that distorted 'thud' that often passes for deep bass reproduction in AV systems.

One other aspect of the sound that truly impressed was the 'liquidity'. Yes, another Hi-fi speak term but what other term to use? The sound comes out in a continuous 'flow' that is utterly beguiling. It is as though the Linn was 'stopping and starting' between the breaths (in and out motion) of the 'speaker drive units whereas the Croft just breaths out in one long, continuous stream. I have tried to describe this effect the best I can, I hope at least someone out there understands!

To sum up: a very satisfactory upgrade indeed, especially as the price is extremely reasonable. As I said at the top I am not qualified to write a review so I would hesitate to suggest that this pre amp is great value for money however I would be interested to see if anyone with experience can suggest a better active pre-amp, or a comparable alternative, new or used, for just £350.

I am currently waiting on a Croft series 7 power amp with a view to it replacing my Lk100 - I will report in due course!

Best Regards

Martin

DSJR

10-10-2009, 16:28

I'm so glad you love the Croft. At last my "opinions" have borne positive fruit. Glenn hates CD apparently, but it's also wondrous what his preamps "do" with a digitally derived source :gig:

Themis

10-10-2009, 16:36

Thanks for this review Martin. ;)
Reading it makes me still more impatient to get my own copy of the 25 Micro. Glenn is out of stock at the moment, but I'll be glad to add a second opinion to yours as soon as I get mine.

Thanks once more, your comments are quite clear to me, you use a language I can understand, much better than some hifi speak, as you say. :)

Waiting also for your 7 power first impressions, as it's my next upgrade as well. Seems we get the same route ! ;)

hifi_dave

11-10-2009, 22:02

Are you sure he's out of stock ? I had a delivery last week....:scratch:

Themis

12-10-2009, 09:50

Are you sure he's out of stock ? I had a delivery last week....:scratch:
Well, I don't know actually. He replied to me 10 days ago saying he could not provide any before a couple of weeks, or so.
Perhaps it's because of you !! :steam: :lolsign:

Macca

12-10-2009, 20:51

Hi Dimitri

When I first enquired Mr Croft advised me I had to contact a dealer - there is a list on the website.

Regards

Martin

Themis

12-10-2009, 20:59

Hi Dimitri

When I first enquired Mr Croft advised me I had to contact a dealer - there is a list on the website.

Regards

MartinHi Martin,

There's no dealer for France, actually. ;)

Macca

12-10-2009, 21:03

Hi Martin,

There's no dealer for France, actually. ;)

Ah! Sorry Dimitiri - did not notice you that you are 'abroad'. I'm sure someone will be willing to ship out to you.

Martin

Themis

12-10-2009, 21:05

Ah! Sorry Dimitiri - did not notice you that you are 'abroad'. I'm sure someone will be willing to ship out to you.

Martin
Well, Gen said he will. I'm not worried about it, and I'm patient (although a bit excited about it;), especially having read your review...)

Macca

12-10-2009, 21:17

Well, Gen said he will. I'm not worried about it, and I'm patient (although a bit excited about it;), especially having read your review...)

Well I did deliberately say in the original post that it was not a 'review' just my thoughts on how it had improved upon my 20 year old Linn pre; so please do not ignore that and end up disappointed - althougth I will qualify that now and say that unless you already have a very good pre-amp I think you will be favourably impressed.

Martin

Themis

12-10-2009, 21:28

Well I did deliberately say in the original post that it was not a 'review' just my thoughts on how it had improved upon my 20 year old Linn pre; so please do not ignore that and end up disappointed - althougth I will qualify that now and say that unless you already have a very good pre-amp I think you will be favourably impressed.

MartinI'm not a fussy guy, you know. Whatever the sound, I've always appreciated carefully-made (almost made with love, should I say) gear.
Knowing what I know about Glenn, disappointment is not a possible option.

(moreover I don't have a very good preamp. It's a Cyrus integrated, which is also more of an "emotional" choice.)

Macca

17-10-2009, 13:17

Here's a piccie of the Croft:

http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/Picture020.jpg

DSJR

17-10-2009, 14:31

You know, I think I prefer the down-beat "Micro" knobs on there to the blingy chrome ones on the bigger model.......

Make sure that you're not picking up hum fields from the CD player underneath - some sorbothane/damping sheeting/feet should be looked into too I suggest - the sheeting for the CD player (it's main weak point) and squidgey feet for the Croft, to prevent vibrations getting into the preamp (microphony?).

Mega- :gig:

Macca

17-10-2009, 17:57

Rare Bird

28-10-2009, 23:53

I've been sat here tonight considering the Croft 'Micro Basic' Line Level Pre to use with the Leak 'Stereo 20'..Anyone got a picture of the inside of one, i'm extremely fussy about internal detail.

:)

Haselsh1

29-10-2009, 14:26

You know, this is bloody ridiculous... I've just attempted to buy one of these preamps from three dealers and have been unable to buy one. I don't quite know what kind of business these people are trying to run but it can't be much of one. Audio Classics also don't take credit cards so I guess, the same applies. Walrus Systems tried to tell me that the preamp is only available to special order when I know that is simply not true as the first two have them in stock and Radlett just will not answer the phone.

So, to match my Audiolab 8000M's I'm going to have to buy an Audiolab 8000Q...!!!

Themis

29-10-2009, 14:33

This is a pity... it seems an outstanding amp. Imho, you should retry Radlett, if you can.

Rare Bird

29-10-2009, 14:35

You know, this is bloody ridiculous... I've just attempted to buy one of these preamps from three dealers and have been unable to buy one. Audio Flair don't take credit cards...! I don't quite know what kind of business these people are trying to run but it can't be much of one. Audio Classics also don't take credit cards so I guess, the same applies. Walrus Systems tried to tell me that the preamp is only available to special order when I know that is simply not true as the first two have them in stock and Radlett just will not answer the phone.

So, to match my Audiolab 8000M's I'm going to have to buy an Audiolab 8000Q...!!!

PM mi owd sausage

Haselsh1

29-10-2009, 17:04

Rare Bird

29-10-2009, 17:13

Phone Haden Boardman up at audio classics in Lancashire, he's a nice bloke & a Croft outlet.

01942 790600

Haselsh1

29-10-2009, 17:20

Phone Haden Boardman up at audio classics in Lancashire, he's a nice bloke & a Croft outlet. tell him what tosspots they are at the same time..

01942 790600

Haden did seem a really nice bloke when I rang him earlier today (Thursday) but he couldn't help me with the purchase so as I said, it looks as though I'm going to have to buy a nice shiny matching Audiolab 8000Q

Rare Bird

29-10-2009, 17:26

Haden did seem a really nice bloke when I rang him earlier today (Thursday) but he couldn't help me with the purchase so as I said, it looks as though I'm going to have to buy a nice shiny matching Audiolab 8000Q

you wanna phone crofty up & complain about them

hifi_dave

29-10-2009, 20:25

Radlett are still not answering the telephone some three hours after I first tried and I have no way of paying for a preamp other than by my credit card. Just how the hell can these people run a business involving hundreds of pounds without accepting credit cards...??? My shop accepts debit and credit cards for as little as a tenner...!! What the hell is going on here...???

I will not use credit card cheques as that involves a higher interest rate and waiting around for the damn things to clear. I have money to spend right NOW and I can only do that through my credit card. Don't these bloody people want money...???

Shaun,
Sorry about that. I work on my own and have been out most of this week, so there is no one to answer the phone. If you or anyone wants me, the best bet is to e-mail - I always reply, usually within a few hours or sooner.

If you want a Croft pre, that's no problem. Try the phone tomorrow before midday or e-mail me, now if you want and I'll get right back.
radlettaudio@hotmail.co.uk

David

Marco

29-10-2009, 20:59

Rare Bird

29-10-2009, 21:42

:sofa:

DSJR

29-10-2009, 22:03

Apologies to hifi dave and any prospective customer, but I live too far to man the phone when he's out.....;)

if one of those dealers is saying that the baby preamp is special order only, it's either because ALL of Glenn's product is "special order" or the fact that they would rather sell the more expensive one as they can make a few quid more on it!

Haselsh1

30-10-2009, 08:18

I do apologise, I didn't realise there was such a connection between this forum and Radlett Hi-Fi. I shall be phoning today (Friday) to place an order.

DSJR, Having thought about what you said I have to concur. Maybe they had the 700 pound one in stock but not the Basic model. It's possible that's why they came up with such a lame excuse.

Rare Bird

30-10-2009, 11:11

Hi Shaun

I'm a bit puzzled how you should want the Croft but was willing to opt for the Audiolab, i'd have thought the two sounds were like chalk & cheese!

Marco

30-10-2009, 11:41

I presume it was because the Audiolab preamp would match his existing Audiolab 8000M monoblocks :)

As an aside, I do hope that the combination of the Croft valve pre and Audiolab monoblocks works, as it's rather an unusual one.

Shaun will no doubt find out in due course!

Marco.

DSJR

30-10-2009, 14:03

The original 8000Q is good, very very good IMO. The Croft has a "greatness" about the way it delivers and that's the difference. Something in the way the musical reproduction compromises have been mixed.

I like Crofty as a person too. Down to earth, happy to indulge CD lovers like me while not wanting to use it himself, yet putting something of himself into his very reasonably priced products that makes them special.

In twenty years time, I'm sure the new pre-amps will be worth good money, as old Micro's still are...

Themis

30-10-2009, 14:20

That's my opinion, too : each Croft amp is more than an amp. I consider it as a piece of art.

"Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions. "

Haselsh1

30-10-2009, 14:37

Marco, you are correct... opting for the Audiolab 8000Q would have given me a perfect match in looks and sound but quite a few years ago I had a valve preamp with transistor power amp and the sound was to die for. The preamp imparted its typical tube sound with the power amp adding all of the guts of a 150Wpc tranny amp. I therefore, rightly or wrongly, have concluded that I may be able to capture a similar sound all over again. And, all for a very reasonable price.

The Grand Wazoo

30-10-2009, 15:04

The combination of valve pre / transistor power works very well for me too. I'm sure you'll be glad to return to it Shaun.

Rare Bird

30-10-2009, 15:15

So what's up with a transistor Pre/Tube Power!!

The Grand Wazoo

30-10-2009, 15:26

Nothing in theory, except that Shaun's looking for a pre to go with his transistor power amps.

DSJR

30-10-2009, 21:03

I should add that the Croft preamp doesn't sound "traditionally valvey" like, say, an EAR 834 does. the one thing it seems to share with good valve product is not a rosy tone, more like a "feel" for the performance, which I think is what the valve lovers here like about their gear, which is often race-tuned to within an inch of its life.

Using a transistor preamp with a valve power amp could be fraught with potential danger I think. transistor preamps can have a hugely wide bandwidth, domestic valve power amps less so and one can get slew-rate difficulties where the preamp is "faster" than the power amp. My knowledge abruptly runs out here, but I think that's right.

Due to intentional bandwidth limiting, some of Naim's better models can make excellent prreamps for valve power amps. back in the Jurassic era (it seems), we successfully used a NAC12s/Snaps with EAR 509's.

I'm sure that modern valve power amps have a wide and capable frequency range and the comments above may not apply. I did use my AVI preamp (-3db @ 300KHz) with my Quad II's (Gawd knows :)) with no trouble though.......

Haselsh1

31-10-2009, 08:48

The combination of valve pre / transistor power works very well for me too. I'm sure you'll be glad to return to it Shaun.

Wazoo, way back when, I used a World Audio Design KLP-1 preamp which, if memory serves me correct, used 6922 valves. I replaced the original valves with Harma Cryo valves but the sound of the preamp was as smooth as silk and it complemented the transistor power amp perfectly. Before the transistors returned I was using a WAD 300B push pull amplifier which was the finest sounding amplifier I have ever experienced but unfortunately had a whole host of problems. Both the power amp and preamp were built for me by World Audio at a cost of around 2k. Those were the days.

Back to reality; I'm looking forward to getting the Croft preamp and trying it out with the 8000M's. I am absolutely sure the Audiolab's are transparent enough to show up the traits of the Croft. One thing the Audiolab's are is clinical. After I have the credit card paid off I then need to look at my vinyl section...!

Of course if I wasn't self employed I'd have a shedload more money to play with but there is something very satisfying about not being told what to do by a twerp.

Ali Tait

31-10-2009, 10:11

If you ever fancy a WAD 300b PP again,I may be persuaded to part with mine...

DSJR

31-10-2009, 10:19

There is supposed to be an "R" version later, with some beefed up (if not boutique) components. bearing in mind the drastc change in sound some tube-rolling did on mine, I'm wondering what can be done with the standard 25 article?

Ali Tait

31-10-2009, 10:56

Always worth doing a bit of tube rolling.It's fun if nothing else.:)

DSJR

31-10-2009, 13:38

I need a quad of "clear" sounding 12AX7's if anyone has some at a reasonable price - I'm not really into romantic bloomy valves myself and the un-named ones in my phono stage are loosing bass extension which apparently happens with ageing valves in crofty's phono stages....... The FM3 has more bass weight and "power" I've noticed recently...

Haselsh1

31-10-2009, 15:17

Spectral Morn

31-10-2009, 18:17

When I eventually get the 'Crofty' I intend to fit Phillips ECC83's and a Tung-Sol 5965. I think I'm right in assuming that the 5965 is the preamp valve with the ECC83's being the phono stage...??? If that is the case, the Phillips valves should produce a very 'creamy' vinyl sound. Can't wait...!!!

Sounds very interesting, maybe if you want to..no pressure you might, Shaun consider doing a review/write up for Strokes of Genius. I know a lot of members would be very keen on that.

The Valve pre with Solid state power or vice-a-versa is a combination I have played with, both as separates and as embodied in the Pathos Classic 1 mk 2 (integrated valve pre stage with mosfet solid state power), but for my money I prefer valve on valve. In saying that, however there may be a valve pre or power matching with solid state pre or power I haven't heard which I could fall for....just haven't heard it yet.

Look forward to reading your experiences Shaun.

Regards D S D L

DSJR

31-10-2009, 20:09

Nah, get some bridged Crown D-60's.... you may be pleasantly surprised :D

Seriously, I like the hybrid approach if it's done right. Glenn's saved a fortune by not using output transformers but still using valves and a simple circuit to drive them...

hifi_dave

31-10-2009, 21:05

Rare Bird

01-11-2009, 11:36

Just wondering it it would be a good choice using one of these with the Leak 'Stereo 20'??

Anyone.

hifi_dave

01-11-2009, 11:49

Absolutely - a marriage made in Heaven.

Back in the day when the Audiolab 8000A was the amp to buy, we did an equally roaring trade with the original Croft Micro and a re-built by Croft Stereo 20 for a total price of £350, same as the 8000A. The combo works well.

Macca

01-11-2009, 12:26

If any members in/near Stoke on Trent wants a listen to the Croft you are welcome to drop round - bring you own kit/muisc if you want. Just send me a PM - my house is a dump but I don't mind if you don't!

Ali Tait

01-11-2009, 18:19

Dave,
May be worth having a look at diy hifisupply at the the TJ's for the valves you are after.Read good reports about them.Not tried them myself though.

DSJR

01-11-2009, 19:10

Thank you :)

Rare Bird

01-11-2009, 20:43

Just send me a PM - my house is a dump but I don't mind if you don't!

:lol:

Haselsh1

02-11-2009, 09:11

Dave,
May be worth having a look at diy hifisupply at the the TJ's for the valves you are after.Read good reports about them.Not tried them myself though.

I remember a year or so back during my bad experience with a Yarland Pro 200SE (300B single ended, 8Wpc) I fitted a pair of JJ/Tesla ECC83's and was amazed by the drop in gain compared to the Electroharmonix that the amp came supplied with. It was a cracking example of just how a valve can change the sound of a system.

For the future, I would like to setup the Croft with some seriously good valves so that I can be assured I am getting the best out of it. Now, hearing what I do about Glen Croft, I'm sure he would not skimp on the original items but the Phillips valves I am thinking of fitting are thirty quid a piece and I somehow doubt they would come as original equipment in a 350 quid preamp.

On arrival of the Croft, I'll see what it looks like compared to the more expensive model and then maybe fit chrome control knobs as well. If the plastic standard knobs look naff I'll sort them out at the same time.

A question for you all. My interconnects are Van Den Hul D102 MkIII Hybrids. I have never had a reason to question these cables. Could I do better for £115...???

DSJR

02-11-2009, 09:27

I thought the D102's were the best of all the VDH interconnects, with a smooth but open sound quality. To me, all the others sounded "contrived" and rather coloured, except possibly the "Second" interconnect/spark plug wire.......

Once you've settled with the Croft, PLEASE try some Mark Grants. £20 is very little to spend on wires these days (Qnex 2 has been £30 per metre pair for centuries it seems).

Haselsh1

02-11-2009, 14:02

In case anyone out there may be interested in the great cable debate; I use NVA LS5 speaker cables of around 5' in length. This cable is the sharpest and clearest speaker cable I have ever experienced and my stereo five foot lengths cost around £75.00 for the pair. I do not bi-wire.

hifi_dave

02-11-2009, 19:42

Shaun,
Your (made to order) Croft pre should be with you tomorrow.

Marco

02-11-2009, 21:24

Wow... I can feel the excitement, Shaun - enjoy! :)

Marco.

Haselsh1

03-11-2009, 17:33

OK, the Croft arrived late this afternoon and was connected in record (!) time. First impressions are very good especially the phono stage which sounds amazing. My only gripe is that the volume controls are almost off when using CD which can't be good if what we read about low volume levels and pots are anything to go by.

I may have to disappear for a week or two now to give the thing a good and fair trial.

hifi_dave

03-11-2009, 18:01

The usual problem with pots at low volume settings is one of imbalance between the channels. You have a pot per channel and will, therefore, automatically compensate for any imbalance.

Rare Bird

03-11-2009, 18:07

or design the simple CD input properly..Shouldnt be that bad as shaun says..Thing with playing at very low levels is the Log pots are not good enough as to give accurate balance..A linear pot with LFR's would give you far better results at low level.

DSJR

03-11-2009, 18:09

Pots are resistors, with all the electrical characteristics as such. In your setup, I doubt you'd hear any significant change with different positions of the volume control, I know I can't - changing interconnect cables are bigger differences and swapping valves a thousand times greater ;)

When I was at Dave's, the volume was at 1 o'clock with CD (12 o'clock is minimum) and 2 o'clock with vinyl IIRC. My Quads need around 30 degrees more on the volume control than either Glenn's or my Crown power amps.

Do the Audiolab amps have "loading" sockets on them still? It may be possible to reduce their sensitivity that way if yours have.

Remember, it's CD that messes gain levels up, as CD players have double the output (or more) than other sources had in the past.

anthonyTD

03-11-2009, 19:48

The usual problem with pots at low volume settings is one of imbalance between the channels. You have a pot per channel and will, therefore, automatically compensate for any imbalance.
use switched attenuators, then you have accurate channel balance all the way,:eyebrows: providing both channels test the same from the start!:)
A...

Marco

03-11-2009, 20:08

use switched attenuators...

Did you mean stepped attenuators - or are they one and the same? :)

Marco.

DSJR

03-11-2009, 20:36

Yeah, but decent ones will cost as much as the preamp. Glenn can't help it if the Audiolabs are too sensitive ;)

Seriously, an "L" pad at the amps to reduce the gain won't affect the sound and will enable you to use more of the volume controls

Marco

03-11-2009, 20:49

He could also use a pair of Rothwell attenuators:

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html

These would solve the problem rather neatly in a sitution where changing/altering the preamp's components isn't desirable :)

Marco.

DSJR

03-11-2009, 21:00

YES - put them at the power amp end to allow the pre to power interconnects as much signal as possible....:)

Rare Bird

03-11-2009, 21:41

Wouldnt that be putting something unesssisary in the signal path :)

Marco

03-11-2009, 21:54

YES - put them at the power amp end to allow the pre to power interconnects as much signal as possible

Absolutely right, Dave.

Andre, yep, the best solution is to sort it out at source (like Dave and Anthony suggested earlier), but if Shaun would rather not bugger about with his (brand new) preamp, then the Rothwells will do a good job :)

Marco.

hifi_dave

03-11-2009, 22:32

I've been selling Croft pre's, all with a pot per channel, since the early 80's and I can honestly say that no one has ever complained about using the two pots. In real life, you don't need to get them in precisely the same positions and because you have one per channel, you have no problems with tracking at very low volume levels. You really don't even give it a thought.:scratch:

Over the years I've had many amps and pre's with imbalance at low volume levels, some of them very expensive. With a pot per channel there is no channel imbalance to worry about.

Ali Tait

03-11-2009, 22:38

The easiest fix for this problem would be to do the shunt mod.See here-

http://wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198

This lowers gain a little so will allow more use of the volume control.

Haselsh1

03-11-2009, 22:42

Radlett Dave you are of course correct in what you say. There is no channel imbalance as there are two independent pots. My initial moan was that the volume is either very quiet or very loud. Yes, I could use attenuators but I'd rather not as I have had experience of them buggering up the sound in the past and would rather not go down that avenue again. The fact is that all of this is due to CD output being over 2V as the problem does not exist with vinyl. Maybe that is telling me something I already knew...??? I always knew vinyl was better by a shedload.

Joe

03-11-2009, 23:03

I have a pair of Rothwell attenuators that I don't need/use. I'm happy to send them to Shaun if he'd like to give them a try.

Haselsh1

03-11-2009, 23:08

Joe, many thanks for the offer. At the moment, if you don't mind too much I'll defer from using them. I very recently gave a pair of Rothwell's away to someone on this very forum as I found they messed up the sound a little to much so I'd like to give the Croft a decent hearing first. I am already hearing striking differences between the Croft and the passive Creek. I'll report more when I've given a full week or more to listening.

Joe

03-11-2009, 23:10

Fair play, Shaun. That was more or less my view of the Rothwells, but I know some people get on OK with them.

Haselsh1

03-11-2009, 23:12

Many thanks Joe...:)

Rare Bird

03-11-2009, 23:45

Heres a good way to deal with differing input levels in general, build a pre like this..

http://www.dact.com/6-channel_active_preamp.gif

Haselsh1

04-11-2009, 08:53

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/Haselsh1/HiFi/CroftMicro25.jpg

So far so good... The Croft is very definitely more dynamic than the Creek passive which by comparison, sucked the life out of the music. It's very easy to get lovely quiet pieces with the Croft and then some very obvious loud passages whereas with the Creek it never really went loud. I'm still coming back to the phono stage... gorgeous...!!!

DSJR

04-11-2009, 09:28

The line stage aint no slouch either, but Glenn's phono stages are sublime (realising he's come a long way from my 4-tube one...).

To do a proper "L" pad, one needs to find the input impedance of the Audiolabs and design one specific to the job (I think...). The insertion loss is then all but zero if it's done right..

The Grand Wazoo

04-11-2009, 09:46

To do a proper "L" pad, one needs to find the input impedance of the Audiolabs and design one specific to the job (I think...). The insertion loss is then all but zero if it's done right..

Yes, I had one built once to match my SP8 with my Radford - there were two clicks on the gain control between silence & a visit from the police!

Both pre & power had to be measured & the pads were built into little boxes with an input & output socket. The interconnect between pad & power amp had to be very short to prevent treble roll-off though. I later tried it with a Cary power amp, & though it reduced the gain, I did feel that I'd lost something else as well. The Cary was a mere shadow of the Radford.

Haselsh1

04-11-2009, 12:53

anthonyTD

04-11-2009, 13:00

One thing I have noticed with the Croft is that the loudness issue is not really a problem with older CD recordings. It becomes a problem with bang up to date CD's that are just so bloody loud. CD's pre 2YK are pretty good and the volume has some control but new ones are just so damn loud and there's little adjustment to get a sensible level.

One thing I have noted about the Croft is the increased sense of space and air the sound now has over the passive pre. Bass, especially string bass, has a much better presence to it. If I had to find a descriptive word for the sound of the Croft though, it would be 'delicate'. I have found that I am re-discovering my Eddie Reader collection for it's acoustic content. That has to be a valve trait.
hi shaun,
the diffrences you have observed between an active preamp and a passive are bang on, as for the recording level diffrences, well,,, we have discussed that many times on AOS, and rightly so,,, its a real headache!:doh: i am afraid though that the level war looks like its here to stay, for now anyway.
regards,anthony,TD...

hifi_dave

04-11-2009, 13:14

Marco

04-11-2009, 15:38

hi shaun,
the diffrences you have observed between an active preamp and a passive are bang on

Yep, too right - Shaun is spot on. I'm afraid there's no such a thing as a 'free lunch' with hi-fi. You simply choose your compromises and run with them.

Experience tells me that high quality active preamps, to my ears, (especially those that are tube-based) offer a far more valuable set of sonic virtues than any of their passive counterparts.

Welcome to the Croft club, Shaun. I'm glad that you're enjoying your new preamp :)

What you've bought is quite frankly astonishing value for money and will outperform many much more expensive designs on both line-level and phono stage sections. However, as you've heard, it's the phono stage in Croft preamps where the real magic lies......

Just wait until you start tube-rolling! ;)

Marco.

Haselsh1

05-11-2009, 08:35

Shaun,
Just had a word with Glenn and there is an easy fix to reduce the gain if you find it annoying.

The feedback resistor on the Line stage can be changed from 470K to 100K, this will reduce the gain from 11 dB to zero.

If you need this, please let me know.

HiFi Dave, many thanks for checking out the facts behind the preamp with Glen. For the time being I'm going to go with things as they are for two reasons:
1: I mainly listen to older 70's prog rock and other types of music and due to these being recorded at a much lower volume I have much less of a problem.
2: I would like at some point next year to buy the matching Croft power amp.
Once again Dave thank you so much for doing this and thanks for a wonderful product.

Haselsh1

05-11-2009, 08:46

Yep, too right - Shaun is spot on. I'm afraid there's no such a thing as a 'free lunch' with hi-fi. You simply choose your compromises and run with them.

Experience tells me that high quality active preamps, to my ears, (especially those that are tube-based) offer a far more valuable set of sonic virtues than any of their passive counterparts.

Welcome to the Croft club, Shaun. I'm glad that you're enjoying your new preamp :)

What you've bought is quite frankly astonishing value for money and will outperform many much more expensive designs on both line-level and phono stage sections. However, as you've heard, it's the phono stage in Croft preamps where the real magic lies......

Just wait until you start tube-rolling! ;)

Marco.

The tube rolling starts soon...

I am amazed by the sound of this preamp. The dynamics are incredible and this could be one reason I have had issues with the volume and the volume controls. It is very easy for this preamp to go very loud and therefore be a little uncomfortable whilst the quiet bits are very quiet. I have become accustomed to the Creek passive pre which, for want of a better description, was flat and lifeless in comparison. The Croft, by comparison, is very lively and dynamic. I also love the way the Croft has a lot of space and air which in the past, I have found are classic valve traits. Simple acoustic music is an absolute delight using this preamp even when tied in to two thuddy great transistor power amps. The extra dynamic of the Croft combined with the power of the Audiolab's produces almost explosive string bass sounds with a fantastic power. The solidity of the bass just has to be experienced. I love it. Of course I have to mention the Dali's as if they weren't up to it, the whole lot would be lost.

Marco

05-11-2009, 12:22

Hi Shaun,

I knew that this tale would have a happy ending. Dave is one of the good guys, and also one of only a handful of 'old school' dealers left - people who are passionate about the products they sell and genuinely care about their customers. For that reason, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him to anyone :)

I just wish that more people knew about Croft and would give their products a go. Glenn's designs deserve to be much more widely known and respected than they are, as they offer quite phenomenal sound-per-pound value, and epitomise everything that AoS stands for.

You do realise that now the valve bug has bit, there's no going back? :eyebrows:

Trust me, your Audiolabs, as much as you like them, are on borrowed time. Quite simply, once you hear what a well-sorted valve amp design (pre or power) is capable of, you won't want to listen to solid-state again! ;)

However, having said that, my advice would be to enjoy what you've got for the moment before rushing out to get the matching Croft power amp, or doing any tube rolling. It's very important that you get to know the combination you're using now inside out before making any further changes, as not doing so is often where mistakes are made.

There's plenty of time for more shenanigans later - in the meantime, just kick back and enjoy the music! :cool:

Marco.

symon

05-11-2009, 14:11

Hmmm, another bit of kit I want! It's a shame no-one in Bristol stocks these.

hifi_dave

05-11-2009, 14:53

Mail order ?

symon

05-11-2009, 15:00

Yep, I think so. As long as it will get through the post in one piece!

hifi_dave

05-11-2009, 15:48

Glenn's packaging might not be the last word in styling but it is courier proof...:eyebrows:

symon

05-11-2009, 15:50

That's comforting. Stylish packaging seems a little excessive to me anyway. It's what's in the package that matters.

Marco

05-11-2009, 17:19

Stylish packaging seems a little excessive to me anyway. It's what's in the package that matters.

That's what my wife tells me very night!! :lol:

Marco.

Ali Tait

05-11-2009, 20:40

So what valves does it use?

Marco

05-11-2009, 20:45

She doesn't work on valves, mate - I just kick start her with a boot up the arse! :lolsign:

Marco.

DSJR

05-11-2009, 21:35

Chance would be a fine thing :(

Themis

05-11-2009, 21:37

Got a mail from Glenn, my (future) Croft pre should be ready to ship next week. :pub:

Marco

05-11-2009, 21:53

Way hey - another Croft-ista is born! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR

05-11-2009, 21:56

I don't mind "shilling" for Glenn at all, 'cos he deserves the business IMO.............................

That power amp of his is good too ;)

Themis

06-11-2009, 08:52

That power amp of his is good too ;)
I think I got the message... :eyebrows:

Jonboy

06-11-2009, 18:03

Glen is rebuilding a pair of otl's for a mate at the moment, these were damaged by a courier who was seen rolling them end over end down the drive so i'm told :steam: i think fragile tape or stickers sometimes is like a red rag to a bull to these numpty drivers , hence my own damage claim against a courier firm at the moment after dropping a pair of mono blocks i sent, if anyone is posting something please take photos of how well you packed them and the packing you have used as this will help in a claim situation, or just arrange personel collection, the safest option me thinks.

Ali Tait

06-11-2009, 19:29

So,what valves does it use??:)

jimb0

08-11-2009, 12:37

This new Croft gear looks excellent quality - I'm highly tempted to try the Basic pre in front of my Quad 306 => Tannoy Chatsworths. The phono stage is MM right? What is the Croft philosophy re MC?

DSJR

08-11-2009, 12:54

Glenn doesn't use MC's but because the basic phono stage is well sorted, any decent MC SUT will work fine (not sure about ss stages feeding it though)..

hifi_dave

08-11-2009, 13:56

Glenn's philosophy doesn't run to MC's, he uses old Decca's into his great MM phono stages. If you want to use MC, a good transformer will do the job.

Marco

08-11-2009, 14:58

Yep, I can testify to that. The valve MM phono stage in my Charisma-X and the A23 SUT with my Denon DL-103SA is an absolutely superb combination :)

Croft phono stages are rather special. Outwith of bespoke D.I.Y designs, they're hard to beat at any price.

Marco.

jimb0

08-11-2009, 15:46

Great, the Croft is at the top of my list for a new pre. I am interested in getting a Leak Stereo 20 for power amp which should all meld nicely with my Tannoys.

Marco: What do you think of the Shure M3D?

DSJR

08-11-2009, 17:08

Don't ask Marco, ask doubter ME!!!! :D

Fitted with an N21 stylus and a pretty massy arm, the M3D/N21 is great, with a generousity of reproduction that makes some newer MM designs (including Shure's own) sound anaemic by comparison. This doesn't seem to be at the expense of sucked-out lower treble either IMO.

The only thing which old cartridge designs like this and many SPU's still I'm informed, suffer from is poor trackabilty/traceability, strong trebley records causing much distress and missssssstracking.. If you have many modern cuts, I'd probably come more up to date - to the 70's anyway, and try a Stanton 681 EEE mk3 or even 680 EE. Welly, excellent mid and a slightly "distant" treble balance (on my old mk1 EEE anyway), but with an excellent "seamless" quality to it. Perhaps if you have a very high-mass arm, the stylus will plough through regardless...

Seriously, M3D's fetch mad money today and although I love mine, I'd never pay £80+ for one (mine was free and with a donated N21 stylus from someone who took pity on me).

Ali Tait

08-11-2009, 17:21

The Stereo 20 is a nice amp,but IMHO having heard both,a WD KEL84 is clearly superior.Both use the same output valves.

DSJR

08-11-2009, 17:27

Have you heard a Glenn Croft re-built Stereo 20, let alone TL12's or, cheaper now used, one of his Series 5 valve power amps? Now Glenn is contactable, the Series 5 makes excellent sense...

I understand that GT audio do great re-builds too, but at a price...

jimb0

08-11-2009, 18:05

Will check out the Stanton model. I am actually running a Pickering VE15 on my Techy at the moment - a stand in cart that I had on my Lenco GL75 (I got it from Tony L on PFM). It does some things so well (bass slam) that I haven't been bothered to try anything else for a while.

DSJR

08-11-2009, 21:08

The VE15 has the same body as the 680 series as I understand.

Themis

11-11-2009, 17:58

Glen just shipped my Basic 25 pre !!! :band: :pub:

DSJR

11-11-2009, 21:42

:gig: to follow....

You'll love it!

Marco

12-11-2009, 10:52

Nice one, Dimitri :)

Honestly, these amps should be 'flying off the shelves' at that price. It's not often you get a commercially available (non-D.I.Y) preamp for £350 that outperforms others at three times the price!!!

And it's only because Glenn works for 'beer tokens'...

I hope people reading this are taking note.

Marco.

Themis

12-11-2009, 11:11

You're absolutely right. Moreover with a good phono stage, it's exceptional...

At the moment I'll try it in front of the Cyrus8xp, but shortly after, I'll get a Croft Power 7. Can't wait for my setup to be complete. :)

Marco

12-11-2009, 11:26

Dimitri,

You're absolutely right. Moreover with a good phono stage, it's exceptional...

Indeed. The phono stage alone is worth much more, in sonic terms, than the cost of the whole amp!

Can't wait for my setup to be complete.

It will be. That's the beauty of equipment such as Croft. It's so fundamentally well-designed and 'sorted' at ground roots level that it kills 'upgraditis' stone dead. It epitomises the type of equipment that we love to champion here on AoS.

We of course expect a full write-up when your new baby arrives... :smoking:

Marco.

P.S You seem to be settling in here very well. Your contributions are continually excellent. Keep up the good work! :)

jimb0

12-11-2009, 11:57

I'm pretty much decided to get one myself. Look forward to hearing your impressions Dimitri.

Themis

12-11-2009, 13:15

We of course expect a full write-up when your new baby arrives... :smoking:

I will do a full "review", together with the new Mark Grant cables and a 6mm speaker Vandamme LC-OFC I got from Dave (Cawley). Unfortunately, my reviews are not as "hi-fi" as (sometimes) expected, 'cause I'm rather a "practical" type of guy... Anyway.

PS: It's because of the excellent company of all of you. I feel at ease with so many modest people around, who have nothing to prove to each other. One of the rare forums where you don't have to continuously deal with each one's egos. ;)

DSJR

12-11-2009, 20:40

Please remember that the "proper" 25 is supposed to be better again (I didn't get the chance to compare them I'm afraid, although HiFi dave has both).

The "R" series is now available too, I understand.

Themis

12-11-2009, 20:47

DSJR

12-11-2009, 20:49

You'll have to ask Glenn about that one ;)

Themis

12-11-2009, 20:51

You'll have to ask Glenn about that one ;)
In the worst case, I can do an exchange. I'm not worried about that, really. ;)

Jonboy

12-11-2009, 20:53

PS: It's because of the excellent company of all of you. I feel at ease with so many modest people around, who have nothing to prove to each other. One of the rare forums where you don't have to continuously deal with each one's egos. ;)

Well said Dimitri

DSJR

12-11-2009, 21:22

I had an over-sized ego once.. Marriage to a well-grounded lady, fatherhood, parental losses and a good few wake-up calls soon put an end to that I think.

Mind you, it's very hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way, ain't it Marco??? :lol:

Jonboy

12-11-2009, 21:27

are you calling me a brown nose?

hifi_dave

12-11-2009, 21:27

Yes, but I guess the Micro is upgradable ?

I don't think so because the difference is in superior parts and as the amps are hard-wired, this isn't feasible.

Themis

12-11-2009, 21:39

I don't think so because the difference is in superior parts and as the amps are hard-wired, this isn't feasible.
Thanks for the info Dave ! Oh well, I'll see when time comes. Perhaps Glenn can keep the box and change everything inside ?
In the worst case, I'll sell it. For its price, I can't loose much, can I ? :eyebrows:

hifi_dave

12-11-2009, 21:57

Sorry but it's not possible as the amp is built inside and attached to the case and sockets - there is no PCB. To remove the guts and replace with the Micro 25 insides would be a much bigger job than building one from scratch. Have a look inside and you will see what I mean.:scratch:

Anyway, as you say, you can't lose much.

Personally, I would stick with it and put any spare cash towards one of Glenn's superb power amps.

Themis

12-11-2009, 22:07

Sorry but it's not possible as the amp is built inside and attached to the case and sockets - there is no PCB.
Ah...yes. I always forget this. :doh:

I will follow your advise. Thanks Dave. :)

tubehunter

12-11-2009, 22:44

hardwired equipment is alot easier to upgrade than ones with pcbs
i don't see why this croft preamp shouldn't be any different.

hifi_dave

12-11-2009, 23:25

If you are very handy with a soldering iron, have a good grasp of electronics and don't mind changing most of the components inside the Croft, I'm sure it can be done. However, I would suggest that it's not the sort of thing the average Hi-Fi purchaser would be capable of doing.

Marco

12-11-2009, 23:51

Hi Dimitri,

I reckon that when you get yours you'll be so blown away by it that any thoughts of upgrading it further will be put on the back burner for some considerable time.

My advice would be to do as Hi-fi Dave suggests and enjoy it as it is and get to know its capabilities properly before making any modifications.

However, later on, someone like Duncan (tubehunter) here, who's carried out some work on my Croft Charisma-X (fitting a high quality stepped attenuator, new smoothing and coupling caps, and a few other bits and bobs, which have all made a huge difference (at significant cost in terms of parts, I would add) could easily take your Micro to another level.

But certainly don't attempt anything like this yourself unless you understand the circuit and know exactly what you're doing, and that of course applies to anyone else you let work on it, otherwise you may end up going backwards instead of forwards.

When you're ready to dabble a little in terms of modifications, let me know and I can advise on which bits to tweak so that you retain the basis of what Glenn intended, but simply realise the full potential of the circuit by using better quality components not factored into the equation due to design cost constraints.

Like I said though, enjoy it for what it is at the moment and then if you feel that you want to experiment a little, try some tube-rolling first, as that's easy and virtually risk-free, providing you use the correct ones. I'm sure that some top-notch NOS tubes from the likes of Telefunken or Brimar would definitely improve on what's in it at the moment, and then take things from there.

Like Hi-fi Dave says though, I'd buy the matching power amp, upgrading your existing power amp first, before spending any dosh on modifying your preamp. You'll get a better overall return on SPPV that way and a synergistically matched amp combo with which to fully realise any benefits from future modifications :)

Marco.

Haselsh1

13-11-2009, 08:59

Well I'm getting along just fine since I bought mine and I've come to seriously realise the limitations of passive preamps. The Creek has just sold on ebay for two hundred quid and has been despatched and the Project Phonobox II SE sold for around one hundred.

My initial listening with the Croft has indicated that there is a ghostly amount of low level detail being displayed from CD. You know the thing, you're sat listening and then out of nowhere this little synth line plays and leaves you thinking "Shit...!" Where the hell did that come from...? It's the kind of revelation I was used to when I had 300B single ended amplifiers a few years back.

I am delighted with the build of the Croft but my partner Janet was slightly alarmed by the lack of weight. It was delivered to our shop and she was expecting this stonking great parcel. Women...!!! The black plastic knobs do let it down but I am going to be changing these very soon for some matt anodised black aluminium ones. I do understand that the more expensive Croft preamp uses two ECC83's for the phono stage but also an ECC83 for the line stage. This means that its valve complement is almost completely different to the Basic. I do not intend to change or upgrade my Croft as it is amazing just as it is. I am getting along fine with the Audiolab 8000M's as well as the Croft.

The Audiolab's produce such a gut wrenching thud and bass solidity that is crucial to my listening. I therefore love them. On vinyl the sound is much more distant and way off behind the speakers. The stereo spread is far superior to CD and the relaxed nature of the sound is pure music. One problem I now have is that the Denon DL160 cartridge is nowhere near good enough...! The treble is quite coarse and spitty in places and this must be due to the low cost of this device. In that respect, my CD sound is superior.

So, overall I'm very happy with the Croft but I do miss the remote control and I find juggling two volume pots a bit of a pain. With the constant variation in recorded level I'm always adjusting the volume. I guess that's just a matter of getting familiar.

Also, many thanks to Radlett Hi-Fi for their assistance.

The Grand Wazoo

13-11-2009, 09:07

Shaun - try a PTFE ring stretched between the two pots. Don't use one that's too tight though, just enough grip to turn both knobs. To alter balance, just hold one & turn the other - the ring will slip

Haselsh1

13-11-2009, 09:08

Hmmm... a very good idea. You'd never think I spent 27 years working as a scientist in industry...!!!:confused:

The Grand Wazoo

13-11-2009, 09:17

Sometimes you just need a fool to point out the obvious!

Marco

13-11-2009, 10:02

Hi Shaun,

Glad the Croft is hitting the spot for you :)

I do understand that the more expensive Croft preamp uses two ECC83's for the phono stage but also an ECC83 for the line stage. This means that its valve complement is almost completely different to the Basic.

What's the valve compliment in the Basic, then? I'm curious.

With regard to your DL-160 sounding coarse and 'spitty'; it definitely shouldn't do that. I know this cartridge inside out (along with most Denons) and your description suggests some type of set-up/incompatibility issue.

Did it do this with your Phonobox II or is it just something you've noticed since getting the Croft?

Marco.

hifi_dave

13-11-2009, 10:04

Haselsh1

13-11-2009, 14:46

Shaun,
It was a pleasure.

If you are troubled by the lack of weight you can always stick a hunk of lead in there. I've known several manufacturers in the past get away with that one to make their products appear more 'serious'..:eyebrows:

LOL... I hear that Mercedes do that in their car doors...???

Marco, the Micro Basic uses two ECC83's and a single 5965. I have every intention of upgrading the valves as soon as I can afford to but I want to get to know the preamp before I start messing with it.

The sound of the Denon DL160 was OK before the Croft but I was wondering if the Croft is just so transparent that it may be showing up the Denon. The overall vinyl sound is far better now than it was with the Project Phonobox but I suspect that is due to a higher overload margin. The sound is just 'superior' to the Project. The high frequencies though are now better on my CD source. The vinyl playback is just not as smooth.

jimb0

13-11-2009, 16:17

I'm convinced. I shall order one over the weekend. Will have to change the knobs though!

DSJR

13-11-2009, 16:46

Ask Glenn how much he'll charge extra for the better knobs - he may well supply them for you.....

The ancient little micro was a bit "raw" compared to mine, but its heart was always in the right place and it never ever failed to put a smile on ones face. I don't know, but I suspect the Micro 25 basic is an update on this ideal..

My preamp originally had shunt resistors (I think that's what they're called) across the line inputs, which had the effect of reducing the gain a bit. Glenn advised me to remove them, which I did. The CD player is certainly the loudest of the sources I have, but I don't any longer think about moving the volume controls, which are a good few inches apart on my old preamp. You really do get used to it..

A note about styli... - The Supex and Stilton OC9 I have were traded in as knackered. The Supex was traded in for a Troika IIRC and the AT for an OC30, which was better. Recent stylus examination under a microscope showed that crunge welded to the diamonds was the main reason for the sound going off. The AT has a fairly sharp "point" ground on the tip and with good pressings it's fine, but rides the groove bottom on pressings made from worn stampers with horrid results. The Supex cleaned up a treat and despite the araldited outer body, still sounds fine.

What I'm leading up to is - get some AT stylus cleaning fluid (AT607) and gently scrub the tip to within an inch of it's life with the enclosed applicator brush. You may just find the DL160 comes back to life supremely well.

It's also been said that the 110 and 160 rather like a step-up transformer in between them and the phono stage. If you can find or make up something with not too much gain, this may beef up the vinyl a bit. Just a thought...

alfie2902

13-11-2009, 21:34

Has anyone had the chance to hear one of these new Croft Micro Basic 25's against an old croft Super Micro pre? I wonder how they old Micro would stand up?

DSJR

14-11-2009, 19:02

I should have taken my SMA IVPP, but couldn't be a*sed to remove it from the system, as it's sounding so good these days.

You might be better off getting your existing preamp to Glenn for a darned good fettling. he can work wonders on his older designs I'm told and the few recommendations he's given me have worked really well, and that's before any circuit alterations have been carried out.

Some tube rolling also seems to pay dividends too. I'd suggest the simpler Croft Micro's of old may prefer the more lush presentation of a long-plate Mullard or Brimar perhaps to the more stark modern valves..

Rare Bird

16-11-2009, 11:29

This guy will accept 245.00 inc UK postage

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200399437270

DSJR

16-11-2009, 12:14

I didn't think Glenn did a "line only" version, but as you're decided on not using records any more, I'd say GO FOR IT!!!!!! There really aren't many line stages out there at this price and I very much doubt any of them would give the Croft any headaches to be honest..

If you change your mind regarding vinyl, there are loads of phono stages out there for not too much money, and of course Glenn makes his dedicated separate model..

Good luck! You could get a set of the top Mark Grant wires with the money you've saved....

Themis

16-11-2009, 12:53

Good news : My Croft just arrived !!!! :gig:

The bad news: I'm far from home, and I won't be able to plug it on my system before friday evening.... :(

Haselsh1

16-11-2009, 19:47

Themis, I'm not trying to rub it in or anything but I've just had a vinyl session consisting of Bowie's 'Scary Monsters' and Brand X's 'Moroccan Roll' using my Croft preamp phono stage and it is still stunning. The Brand X pressing is as I bought it in 1977 and is still amazing even by todays standards. In fact by todays mega loud standards it is completely staggering. I still feel the need to upgrade the Denon DL160 cartridge though. Maybe next year I'll be looking at a Dynavector DV10X or a Sumiko Blackbird...??? Then of course I'd like to get the Alphason overhauled and re-wired...!!!

Haselsh1

16-11-2009, 19:55

I got a telephone call today from the guy responsible for Audio Flair in London who is not happy with some of the comments on this forum regarding my experiences at trying to buy my Croft preamp from him. If anything I have said on this forum has upset him and I know it has, I apologise here and now. I still however cannot understand how anyone can run a business that involves such a high profit margin and not take credit cards. I simply do not understand such a philosophy.

Themis

16-11-2009, 20:03

I'l check the phono stage on Saturday. In fact, it's because of this stage that I bought the pre in the first place. ;)

Well, I said I couldn't listen to it before Saturday... in fact, I'm cheating a bit : I've plugged my iPod (its line output not the headphone out) in the Croft and I feed a nice (solid state) headphone amp with it...

I have a studio monitor headphone which is highly accurate throughout the audible spectrum (an ATH M50). It has the advantage of having a sound *very* close to my SF speakers (in fact it's a bit better).

This Croft "thing" makes my iPod sound like a tape recorder ! :eek:
I need a better listen, I'm a bit confused...

How about burn-in ?

PS: please don't tell Glen that I plugged my iPod in his nice amp...

DSJR

16-11-2009, 20:46

Glenn won't mind, he's not the type (and that's one of the great things about the man :)). He fitted all gold phono's to my first SMA4PP when he only did the in and output sockets. This meant reaming all the holes out as well as fitting far more expensive insulated gold plated sockets just because I asked for gold sockets on the CD input to humour me. I wonder what happened to that preamp, as it was stolen from the mate who bought it from me back in 1994 or thereabouts...

Thank gawd I found the one I have - and at a very good price too :)

Themis

16-11-2009, 22:25

Marco

17-11-2009, 09:07

Hi Shaun,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you - things have been a bit hectic! :)

Marco, the Micro Basic uses two ECC83's and a single 5965. I have every intention of upgrading the valves as soon as I can afford to but I want to get to know the preamp before I start messing with it.

Smart move. Fortunately too, those are common valves, so you should have no problem obtaining superior NOS equivalents. What make are the valves in it at the moment? Sometimes Glenn uses NOS valves as standard in his designs (as that's often what he's got in his box ;)).

The best ECC83-types, in my experience (and trust me, I've tried tons of them), are NOS Telefunkens and Teslas (proper original ones, not JJ). Ideally, you're looking for Telefunken 803S, such as these:

https://www.tubeworld.com/ecc803s.htm

...but you can see the prices they fetch! However, I've seen them go for rather less on Ebay, although still expensive. You need to look around.

You can also get the Telefunken ECC83 'long smooth plates', which are 90% as good as the 803S, and a fraction of the price. Try Googling them and see what comes up.

A more cost-effective option, and likely to sound just as good IMO, are these NOS Brimar CV4035 (ECC83 equivalents), from my favourite NOS tube source in the States:

http://www.tubemonger.com/Brimar_CV4035_NOS_1960_Prem_CV4004_STC_England_p/2001m2.htm

I've used this guy many times and his tubes are top-notch; they're reasonably priced too, considering NOS prices elsewhere. They're all measured, matched and tested beforehand, and his service is quick and efficient.

It's where I obtained my current NOS Tesla E83CCs from (which I use in my Croft Charisma-X):

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2530/teslae83cc.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/teslae83cc.jpg/)

These are as rare as hen's teeth, but if you can find some, they're every bit as good as Telefunken 803S, at a fraction of the price ;)

The sound of the Denon DL160 was OK before the Croft but I was wondering if the Croft is just so transparent that it may be showing up the Denon.

Possibly, but what it should show up (if everything else is right) is that it's a really good cartridge. Denon MCs inherently just don't sound as you describe. I suspect that the problem may be because it's a high-output MC, which the valve MM stage in the Croft doesn't 'like', rather than the DL-160s sonic limitations being shown up.

How do you find the available gain - is it excessive, not enough, or just right? Judge this by the usable range of the volume control.

However, knowing Croft phono stages very well, my advice would be either to buy a good quality moving magnet or moving iron cartridge, and feed that straight into the Croft's valve MM stage, or a low-output MC, and use it with a step-up transformer.

I guarantee that if you do either of the above, you'll be gob-smacked (even more than you are now) by the results!

Hope this helps.

Marco.

P.S If you want, I could pop by and check things over for you (maybe bring some NOS valves for you to try, etc) when Del and I are up at the Star Inn in December? It would be good to meet up :cool:

Haselsh1

17-11-2009, 10:24

Marco I'd love to meet up with the two of you whether at the Star Inn or elsewhere as long as I don't get to pay for lunch...! I'm not up to Michelin Star prices just yet...!

Fact is I've never heard a really expensive moving magnet cartridge. I was always brought up to believe that it just had to be moving coil. I have searched around and I can see that there are some very expensive mm's out there. Maybe one of those would be much better into the Croft. At some point next year I'll have the cash.

I'd also like to get the Alphason Xenon arm renovated as it is still in its MCS guise with Van Den Hul wiring. At some point it'll all come together. I hope.

Marco

17-11-2009, 15:04

Hi Shaun,

Fact is I've never heard a really expensive moving magnet cartridge. I was always brought up to believe that it just had to be moving coil. I have searched around and I can see that there are some very expensive mm's out there. Maybe one of those would be much better into the Croft.

I know exactly what you mean, as I was brought up the same way. Subsequent experience, however, has taught me a little differently. It's like anything else in hi-fi: there is no one 'perfect solution' for every application/system.

My view is that there are some very good MM (and moving iron) cartridges around these days, and some equally good (or even better) classic ones. Much boils down to the presentation you prefer and/or the tonearm or phono stage you're using - and even your choice of music!

However, as much as I love what some top-notch MM designs do, current or classic (particularly the Shure M3D), I still end up going back to my DL-103SA, so I guess that my main preference is still for good low-output MCs. Fortunately, the quality of Croft phono stages is such that by simply adding an appropriate SUT (e.g the Puresound T10), which can be matched to your choice of MC cartridge, you end up with a fantastic sound.

SUTs haven't really caught on in the UK, but trust me, when you get it right the results are very good indeed! ;)

Anyway, when the time comes to change your cartridge there'll be plenty of advice on-hand here to help you.

Regarding meeting up in December, that sounds like a plan! I'll bring some NOS ECC83s to play with, and possibly also a low-output MC cartridge and SUT, to let you hear what this does with your Croft. If you PM me your addy and phone number, I'll give you a bell nearer the time to arrange the details :)

Marco.

DSJR

17-11-2009, 17:48

Best cartridge for a Croft is a modern, or fettled old DECCA - end of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some of you guys are living in a different world to me. $100 for ONE valve (I need 5x83's, an ECL86 [still cheap] and 2x82's in mine....:( ). OK, it still means a current Micro 25 is still under a grand and even in standard form, it wipes the nose of any competition IMO...

Marco

17-11-2009, 17:59

Hi Dave,

Best cartridge for a Croft is a modern, or fettled old DECCA - end of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, there's a lot of truth in that :)

As for $100 valves and 'different worlds'... Well, if you don't smoke, or drink to excess, and live within your means, I guess you're more likely to be able to treat yourself to something nice for your hi-fi than if you do the opposite ;)

Incidentally, in case of any misunderstanding, that comment is not aimed at you. It's a rhetorical remark about things in general.

Marco.

jimb0

17-11-2009, 18:19

Marco

17-11-2009, 18:27

Nice one, Jim - you're obviously a man of some taste and sophistication! :)

Like I said though, considering how ridiculously priced these amps are for the performance on offer, they should be flying off the shelves quicker than Glenn can build them...

I'm also glad to see that one of the good guys like Dave is getting some well-earned business.

Enjoy your amp when it arrives and let us know how you get on :cool:

Marco.

symon

17-11-2009, 18:48

Marco

17-11-2009, 18:49

I think with a bit of work that's a potential match made in heaven, Peter :)

Marco.

DSJR

17-11-2009, 19:01

I have ordered the micro basic through the good offices of hifi_dave. Thinking about MMs I have got hold of an M3D and N21 stylus to try on my Lenco GL75 (probably a bit hefty for the Technics standard arm?).

PFM's Tony L assures me that the L70 arm works and I'm sure the L75 will also. The M3D body isn't overtly microphonic and the N21 stylus doesn't need much more than 2.5 grammes downforce to track most LP's, so you should have an excellent and ballsy sounding marriage.

Have you "done" the knife-edge bearing blocks? The arm needs these checking regularly, as the bearing shafts really do cut into the compliant blocks after a few years and this degrades performance, as well as one going before the other, giving the headshell a sick, canted over look...

The techie arm would be OK I reckon, as the M3D/N21 canot be much less compliance than a DJ grade Ortofon or Stanton IMO....

hifi_dave

17-11-2009, 19:58

DSJR

17-11-2009, 20:40

Hi Dave,

Yes, there's a lot of truth in that :)

As for $100 valves and 'different worlds'... Well, if you don't smoke, or drink to excess, and live within your means, I guess you're more likely to be able to treat yourself to something nice for your hi-fi than if you do the opposite ;)

Incidentally, in case of any misunderstanding, that comment is not aimed at you. It's a rhetorical remark about things in general.

Marco.

No misunderstanding at all Marco. I'm very fortunate that my income appears to be gradually rising at present and I've had some paid work every day this last week. It'll be a very long time before I earn anything like what I was earning ten years ago though and the frugal mid-noughties will have to be paid for as well :(

Marco

18-11-2009, 11:57

No misunderstanding at all Marco. I'm very fortunate that my income appears to be gradually rising at present and I've had some paid work every day this last week.

Glad to hear it, Dave. Long may it continue :)

Marco.

REM

19-11-2009, 08:03

My name is Dave and I'm a London Deccaholic. :eyebrows:

A few months ago I got back into the London (Decca) habit and it's addictive. If you've got a suitable arm and a (preferably) non-bouncy turntable, these little beauties make all else sound slow and muffled and the bass.....oh the bass.:lolsign:

That's something all you Deccaistas say..."in the right arm....with a suitable arm etc..." but no one ever seems to say what these suitable arms are. I'm guessing that the SME 3012 would 'do' but what other recommendations are there?

Cheers

hifi_dave

19-11-2009, 09:46

basnas

19-11-2009, 17:24

Hi
Can i get some help. What is the type of this Decca cartridge? is it a london?
Glenn Croft says a Decca blue with line contact tip is very good. Where can i buy Decca Blue in UK?http://http://img34.imageshack.us/i/img0663z.jpg/

best jan

basnas

19-11-2009, 17:27

I will try too get the picture on the side..

basnas

19-11-2009, 17:35

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/9784/img0663u.jpg

Decca?

anthonyTD

19-11-2009, 18:45

hi all,
the original excalibur arm on my cranfield rock turntable is also a very robust, high mass unit which i think would be very good for these low compliance cartridges.
A...

hifi_dave

19-11-2009, 19:01

That should do the job. The London or Decca isn't that fussy, it just shakes to bits any flimsy cheap arms...:lolsign:

hifi_dave

19-11-2009, 19:12

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/9784/img0663u.jpg

Decca?

Can't quite see from this pic whether it is an original Decca Gold or one of the newer London versions.

Decca as a name is no longer in use for various legal reasons but the cartridges themselves are still being manufactured as 'London' in GB. There is a range from £399 to £2299 plus a robust DJ variant at £499. Any of the cartridges can be ordered as a mono.

The Blue and Dark Blue had spherical styli but have not been manufactured since the 60's I believe. The latest models such as the Super Gold at £599 are fitted with an 'Extended Line Contact' stylus and are very good indeed.

Barry

19-11-2009, 20:09

Many arms. The original Decca arms turn up regularly on E-Bay, London still supply a couple of arms, Then there are the Nottingham Analogue arms in their various lengths, various Helius, SME, Audio Origami look promising. Jelco, Linn Ekos and the Rega arms, probably best used with the red plastic bracket, Graham, Breuer etc, etc. What you don't want is a flimsy, lightweight arm which will be shaken around by the energy these cartridges put out.

I have a Breuer arm and three Dacca cartridges. Have never thought about trying the Deccas in the Breuer. Until now have fitted the Deccas into the GB mounting block with an ADC headshell on an SME 3009 with light damping. Had been thinking of resurrecting my Audio & Design (later known as the Keith Monks) unipivot arm and trying out the Deccas in that; however it will need a new arm board cut for my Thorens 124/II.

The use of the Breuer with the Deccas has got me thinking though.

Regards

Barry

19-11-2009, 20:13

Can't quite see from this pic whether it is an original Decca Gold or one of the newer London versions.

Decca as a name is no longer in use for various legal reasons but the cartridges themselves are still being manufactured as 'London' in GB. There is a range from £399 to £2299 plus a robust DJ variant at £499. Any of the cartridges can be ordered as a mono.

The Blue and Dark Blue had spherical styli but have not been manufactured since the 60's I believe. The latest models such as the Super Gold at £599 are fitted with an 'Extended Line Contact' stylus and are very good indeed.

Looks like an original to me.

A 'Blue' and a 'Dark Blue'? Thought there was only one type of Blue. What are the differences between the two?

Regards

hifi_dave

19-11-2009, 20:35

Not sure but I still have two or three Dark Blues, one Blue (perhaps it's faded), a Maroon, Grey, Black and an old Gold or two. I think the differences were that they started with mono, stereo then different styli shapes. I believe the Black was the earliest...:scratch:

Barry

19-11-2009, 20:43

My 'Blue's are both a dark coloured blue (French Navy?). Maybe there was as much variation with the colour as there was with sample-to-sample build quality and performance.

What was the 'Black'? I know of the Blue, Grey, Maroon and Gold, but not the Black. Saw one going on eBay, but could not tell what kind of stylus it had. Was the Black mono?

Regards

DSJR

19-11-2009, 20:54

Re arms - When Max was making the Rock 2, he used Decca's almost exclusively in the Excalibur and referred the overall sound to master tape. He stopped using Decca's when they became unreliable, something that has been fixed I understand.

I'm sure the Breuer should be fine, but it's more of a "Koetsu arm" IMO. Good luck and use the modern Deccapod mount, which, by looking at HiFi Dave's, is identical to my Bastin mounted Gold Microscanner, which was repaired recently.

jimb0

20-11-2009, 14:05

Well, mine arrived. First impressions are very, very good. Phono stage is absolutely fantastic - huge sense of presence, especially with voices.

The only negative is that it has revealed various issues with my system/room that the Quad 44 and its tone controls were hiding...

The other thing is that into the Quad 306 power amp things get very loud very quickly, micro adjustments needed on the volume controls.

Themis

20-11-2009, 14:17

The other thing is that into the Quad 306 power amp things get very loud very quickly, micro adjustments needed on the volume controls.
Could this be your solution ? : http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=77191&postcount=81

Themis

20-11-2009, 20:27

My friends, I'm cursed ! :(

I arrived at home, plugged the Croft pre, switched on the Cyrus (used as a power) and... the Cyrus shut down !
Now it's written 'PSU Fault' on it, according to the manual, I have to bring it back to the dealer... :steam:

Moreover I gave my power NAD C272 to a friend, and the Denon doesn't have a direct power in... :doh:

I'll stay one more week without the Croft... :(

Alex_UK

20-11-2009, 20:42

Nightmare! Do you think it was the Croft that caused it, or a coincidence? Sorry to hear of your misfortune... :(

Themis

20-11-2009, 20:48

A coincidence, I guess. I don't see how a line in can cause PSU damage...

matodono1

03-12-2009, 10:12

Hi Shaun,

I wouldn't hesitate to give your business to Dave. He's definitely one of the good guys and will look after your needs :)

Hope you enjoy your new Croft (when you get it) - we of course expect pictures and a full write-up!

Marco.

Marco,

I know I have come in late on this one but can you please advocate some respect for how people wish to do business who also happen to be Croft Dealers.

None of Croft's dealers deserve to be called tosspots. They are virtually all personal friends.

Adrian Parsons at Audioflair is one of the nicest, most helpful guys I know. He has known Glenn personally and professionally for 26 years.

If he chooses to run his business without a credit card facility then surely that is his choice. Try paying Glenn with a CC and see how far you get.

Even your own comment is demonstrating bias to the regulars of this forum.

Sort it out please. Your forum is in danger of becoming cliquey.

Regards, Matt.

Themis

03-12-2009, 10:38

None of Croft's dealers deserve to be called tosspots. They are virtually all personal friends.
There's a misunderstanding about Andre's post, I guess...
At least, that's how I see it. ;)

Marco

03-12-2009, 10:44

Hi Matt,

Sort it out please. Your forum is in danger of becoming cliquey.

Whoa..... That's a bit confrontational, isn't it? Are you in a bad mood this morning? I'd appreciate it if you adopted a less confrontational stance when asking me to address something for you, and preferably to do it by PM.

Our forum is not "cliquey". That however may be your perception of it. Obviously I'm going to recommend Dave, as he's a member here (a very good one at that) and so I know him. I don't know Adrian from Adam. If he wishes to be recommended here for Croft products, and receive similar kudos as Dave, then perhaps he should register on the site as trade member?

It's not appropriate for him to complain to you on the sidelines and then getting you to come and 'defend' him here (certainly this is how it appears). That's not the way to go about things at all. If Adrian wants to receive the same treatment as Dave then he knows what to do (as I've mentioned above). And if he wishes to defend his business principles then he should come and do so himself.

Also, it's not our position to comment on personal business disputes or grievances between dealers and members of our forum - that's a private matter between the individuals concerned, so if someone wants to moan about a dealer not taking credit cards as payment then they're perfectly entitled to do so. We will not gag them.

However, that aside, neither is it appropriate to refer to people as "tosspots" (I missed that), so if you would kindly direct me to where this rude remark was made (in the form of supplying a link to the relevant post) I will gladly remove it :)

Marco.

Rare Bird

03-12-2009, 16:42

Your forum is in danger of becoming cliquey.

Regards, Matt.

Already is, with a certain digital product

:sofa:

Jonboy

03-12-2009, 16:48

And certain amps

:sofa: :sofa:

I need two sofas to get my arse behind

Themis

03-12-2009, 16:52

What does "cliquey" mean ? :scratch:

Rare Bird

03-12-2009, 17:05

What does "cliquey" mean ? :scratch:

I could point you to another fora as an example if you wish

:lol:

Marco

03-12-2009, 18:19

Haha, chaps, very good! :lol:

Marco.

Spectral Morn

03-12-2009, 18:28

And certain amps

:sofa: :sofa:

I need two sofas to get my arse behind

And a certain TT and Cables....;):lol::lol: Daleks don't need sofas to hide behind...bring it on...:eyebrows:;):lol::lol::lol::lol:

However very good products are very good regardless of whether a number of people say so or not and if a large number happen to be AOS members well thats not our fault now...is it?

Regards D S D L

DSJR

03-12-2009, 18:42

Marco,

I know I have come in late on this one but can you please advocate some respect for how people wish to do business who also happen to be Croft Dealers.

None of Croft's dealers deserve to be called tosspots. They are virtually all personal friends.

Adrian Parsons at Audioflair is one of the nicest, most helpful guys I know. He has known Glenn personally and professionally for 26 years.

If he chooses to run his business without a credit card facility then surely that is his choice. Try paying Glenn with a CC and see how far you get.

Even your own comment is demonstrating bias to the regulars of this forum.

Sort it out please. Your forum is in danger of becoming cliquey.

Regards, Matt.

Hi Matt.

I know, there are FAR too many Dave's on here :lol:, but my recommendation of HiFi Dave (Wren) is based on my knowing him for twenty years now. It was HE who showed me back then how great Glenn's products are and through him I met the man himself, all this bringing on a form of musical epiphany away from Linn and Naim. Support for Croft slipped after Amar all but took the brand over, but since Glenn has gone solo again, it's now possible to speak to him and discuss old model updates as well as supply of new gear.

I don't really know the other Croft dealers apart from Walrus (one of whom I know going back to the KJ seventies, where he worked at the one time Croydon branch, moving on to KJW1 for a while before starting Walrus "round-the-corner").

If other dealers are hard to contact and don't take credit cards, that's up to them and their bank managers, but as online sales of accessories at least are gaining ground, I'd personally suggest cheekily that they consider taking plastic as I'm very sure it would be difficult to trade otherwise...

Marco has covered his side of things I think and at least our recommendations are "better the devil you know."

This site Cliquey? Never!!!!!!! :lolsign: :peace:

Haselsh1

03-12-2009, 19:07

Excuse me but aren't we talking about one the 'cliquiest' hobbies to get involved with here...??? Vinyl, digital, Croft, Koetsu, Audio Note...??? Just who is kidding who...???

This has to be one of the most 'better than yours' hobbies I have ever experienced apart from collecting Ferrari's and being Chris Evans.

matodono1

03-12-2009, 19:08

Hi Matt,

Whoa..... That's a bit confrontational, isn't it? Are you in a bad mood this morning? I'd appreciate it if you adopted a less confrontational stance when asking me to address something for you, and preferably to do it by PM.

Marco, you and I have always seen eye to eye and there is no reason to change that. However your reply, the deflection in it and your reference to my mood shows poor form (the sort of response I would expect and often got from Mr Biswas) and I know that is not an association which you would relish.

There very little confrontation in the last line of the post.

I simply asked "Sort it out please" (but omitted the question mark a grammatical error on my part).

Our forum is not "cliquey". That however may be your perception of it. Obviously I'm going to recommend Dave, as he's a member here (a very good one at that) and so I know him. I don't know Adrian from Adam. If he wishes to be recommended here for Croft products, and receive similar kudos as Dave, then perhaps he should register on the site as trade member?

I have no issue with you recommending Dave at all. He is one of the "personal friends" to which I refer (not of mine but certainly has a long association with Glenn).

In your comment you referred to Dave as "one of the good guys"

Well my view is that if you are on that list of dealers then you are all "the good guys" Glenn turns down dealer requests on a ratio of at least 10-1. There are no sheisters listed on that site.

You are a supporter of Croft, all I asked is that you also support his dealers with a little less bias (whether you know them or not).

It's not appropriate for him to complain to you on the sidelines and then getting you to come and 'defend' him here (certainly this is how it appears). That's not the way to go about things at all. If Adrian wants to receive the same treatment as Dave then he knows what to do (as I've mentioned above). And if he wishes to defend his business principles then he should come and do so himself.

That is not quite how it went down. I do come on here on occasion to check if I have PM's. I read Croft related posts and threads with interest as you would expect. When I see a friend of mine getting slated for no good reason then of course I will defend him.

Adrian Parsons offers a fantastic personal service (even though he don't do CC's). He has a fantastic ear and is fanatical about all things hifi. He has rolled many tubes and messed with all the cables, all of the equipment and knows Croft products just as intimately as Glenn himself. He shouldn't have to come onto the forum to defend himself. It should be a given by virtue of actually featuring on the dealers list.

Also, it's not our position to comment on personal business disputes or grievances between dealers and members of our forum - that's a private matter between the individuals concerned, so if someone wants to moan about a dealer not taking credit cards as payment then they're perfectly entitled to do so. We will not gag them.

However, that aside, neither is it appropriate to refer to people as "tosspots" (I missed that), so if you would kindly direct me to where this rude remark was made (in the form of supplying a link to the relevant post) I will gladly remove it :)

Marco.

I would not and do not expect that, but some balance was lost here. A good guy was treated unfairly.

The "tosser" remark was a general remark made by Andre in post #20.
It wasn't addressed specifically at Adrian. I didn't expect censorship, just the "voice of reason" that I have come to expect from you.

With specific reference to CC's.

The whole Croft ethos has a slightly left wing bent to it. The cheap products, the simplistic stlying, the no nonsense delivery of actual sound quality without the bullcrap fan fare associated with the majority of the rest of the industry.

It's all an afront to the status quo "the man".

Not all the dealers want to be connected to "the man" via a CC terminal. And that is their right.

End of rant.

Regards, Matt.

Marco

03-12-2009, 19:12

Hi Matt,

I've got no problem with most of that, mate - a little bit of crossed wires I think :)

I'll respond to some specific points you raised later when I've got more time. I've got a few things going on at the moment.

Speak later! :cool:

Marco.

matodono1

03-12-2009, 19:28

Hi Matt.

I know, there are FAR too many Dave's on here :lol:, but my recommendation of HiFi Dave (Wren) is based on my knowing him for twenty years now. It was HE who showed me back then how great Glenn's products are and through him I met the man himself, all this bringing on a form of musical epiphany away from Linn and Naim. Support for Croft slipped after Amar all but took the brand over, but since Glenn has gone solo again, it's now possible to speak to him and discuss old model updates as well as supply of new gear"

This site Cliquey? Never!!!!!!! :lolsign: :peace:

Hi Dave,

I think I covered it in my post to Marco but yoiur post deserves a reply also.

My point being that HIFI Dave is a trusted dealer aloing with all of the other trusted dealers. They should all be regarded with the same esteem by virtue of being on the dealers list.

None are there who don't deserve to be there, it's just that not all are known to you guys on here.

One person came onto this thread who didn't quite get how the Croft cogs turn. That's ok he will catch up. Croft is not Linn or Naim, things go a little differently and not always at a instant! Sometimes you have to wait for the good stuff to happen.

I simply came on to defend my friend who was getting slated.

Regards, Matt.

Haselsh1

03-12-2009, 21:24

Is it not up to the person in question to defend himself...? Or, is there more to this than there actually appears...???

DSJR

03-12-2009, 21:31

Or, is there more to this than there actually appears...???

I don't think so.

Can we return to talking about the Croft preamp please ?:scratch:

Haselsh1

03-12-2009, 21:34

That would be nice cozz there is so much to say about this fab piece of Hi-Fi

Haselsh1

03-12-2009, 21:51

Themis

03-12-2009, 22:06

Hey ! One of my fav albums, Shaun !
Talking about this album, what were the differences with the Croft preamp ?

Haselsh1

03-12-2009, 22:16

Hey ! One of my fav albums, Shaun !
Talking about this album, what were the differences with the Croft preamp ?

Hmmm... I have the latest remastered SACD version that I prefer to listen to as a standard CD pressing.

I will start by saying that through the Crofty preamp this album is almost mindblowing. The guitar work of Mr Hackett is almost unbelievable. There are so many hidden sounds from that Gold Top Les Paul that I find it all just too much. I wish I had had this level of fidelity in 1975 so that I could have been mindblown as a mid teenager.

Phil Collins doesn't disappoint on this copy either. There are drum sounds on this pressing and through this preamp that have you wondering what the hell you've been doing for a year or more. Buy the SACD (Hybrid) and buy the Croft and just be totally and completely amazed.

Themis

03-12-2009, 22:20

Buy the SACD (Hybrid) and buy the Croft and just be totally and completely amazed.
Advice noted on top of page 1 of "things not to forget under any circumstances" ! ;)

Thank you Shaun. :)

Haselsh1

03-12-2009, 22:23

I jest ye not...! Be amazed. This is probably one of the finest albums I have ever heard by any band... along with Moroccan Roll by Brand X.

matodono1

03-12-2009, 23:34

Here’s a bit of a verbal blast…!

I have now had the Croft Micro 25 Basic for around three weeks and I’m getting very used to it. So what’s the first major impression…??? I’ll tell you.

Hidden detail. This preamp exposes fine nuances in the music in just the same way as a single ended 300B amplifier does. You can sit there night after night listening to your choice of music and wonder just where the hell all of that fine detail comes from. There are scary little inflections within the music that get you wondering just what you have been missing for the last twelve months. This thing really is that obvious.

Way too loud. The volume controls on this preamp are way too sensitive. Using modern digital recordings there is no real room to set a sensible volume using this preamp. My power amps require a 1V input for full output and this preamp is just way too OTT. With this preamp things are just loud or deafening. Using vinyl everything is fine and using much older CD recordings things are much more sensible but when using bang up to date digital, it’s just stupid.

Finish. This preamp has a distinct ‘made at home’ look to it but given where most people are on this forum, that’s fine. It is sturdy and strong but those black plastic knobs are a dead giveaway. Let’s face it, one could do a lot better at Hi Fi Collective.

For the differences this preamp has brought musically, I am very pleased to own it. For the price of the unit I am OK. I could have bought a complete match in the shape of an Audiolab 8000Q which would have been gain matched and had a remote volume pot but would it have produced such an increase in musicality (yuk…!!! I hate that word), I’m not sure. The 8000Q would have cost 285 quid. The Croft cost around 350.

You decide.

Firstly no conspiracy, as I have already said. Adrian should not have to justify himself. He is established as a Croft dealer for good reason. The only person he has to answer to is Glenn.

I am sorry that you had go to extra lengths to get your pre, but you were not entitled to berate the man on a public forum based on the fact that you were not offered the payment option you required. Surely it would have been more proper to simply take your custom to the Dealer who best served your needs (as you did). The public tirade was unnecessary.

"Way too loud"

This is a case of having your cake and eating it. The ECC83 is the reason for the loudness on the line stage. It produces a lot of gain in this circuit but is entirely the reason why you are also hearing the hidden detail and scary little inflections which you also describe.

Glenn built another very similar circuit for a Micro 25 using ECC82's one aim was to reduce the gain slightly on the line stage. I was given both pre's to listen to at my home but we made the decision after listening to two tracks. The ECC83 based circuit was far superior. No use teaching the man to suck eggs. He already knows.

There are also many other factors, power output of power amps, sensitivity of speakers etc. Maybe your combination does not quite suit.

"This preamp has a distinct ‘made at home’ look to it"

That's because it is, made at Glenn's home!

Matt.

Haselsh1

04-12-2009, 08:39

Firstly no conspiracy, as I have already said. Adrian should not have to justify himself. He is established as a Croft dealer for good reason. The only person he has to answer to is Glenn.

I am sorry that you had go to extra lengths to get your pre, but you were not entitled to berate the man on a public forum based on the fact that you were not offered the payment option you required. Surely it would have been more proper to simply take your custom to the Dealer who best served your needs (as you did). The public tirade was unnecessary.

"Way too loud"

This is a case of having your cake and eating it. The ECC83 is the reason for the loudness on the line stage. It produces a lot of gain in this circuit but is entirely the reason why you are also hearing the hidden detail and scary little inflections which you also describe.

Glenn built another very similar circuit for a Micro 25 using ECC82's one aim was to reduce the gain slightly on the line stage. I was given both pre's to listen to at my home but we made the decision after listening to two tracks. The ECC83 based circuit was far superior. No use teaching the man to suck eggs. He already knows.

There are also many other factors, power output of power amps, sensitivity of speakers etc. Maybe your combination does not quite suit.

"This preamp has a distinct ‘made at home’ look to it"

That's because it is, made at Glenn's home!

Matt.

First things first... I berated no one I simply pointed out facts and shortcomings within a supposed business.There was no public tirade on my part. It may well have been turned into that by other people but that is totally out of my control. I did exactly what you stated and took my business to a person who was able to supply what I wanted in the way I wanted it. I have already discussed this over the telephone with the man in question and I will not discuss it further with someone who appears to be making it his personal crusade. This is none of your business so I suggest you butt out.

Haselsh1

04-12-2009, 08:50

Firstly no conspiracy, as I have already said. Adrian should not have to justify himself. He is established as a Croft dealer for good reason. The only person he has to answer to is Glenn.
Matt.

This is simply not true. Adrian is a supposed Hi-Fi dealer and has therefore put himself into the public domain. This means that he answers to his customers whether he likes it or not. If he chooses not to, his customers will simply take their business elsewhere, as did I.

matodono1

04-12-2009, 15:06

First things first... I berated no one I simply pointed out facts and shortcomings within a supposed business.There was no public tirade on my part. It may well have been turned into that by other people but that is totally out of my control. I did exactly what you stated and took my business to a person who was able to supply what I wanted in the way I wanted it. I have already discussed this over the telephone with the man in question and I will not discuss it further with someone who appears to be making it his personal crusade. This is none of your business so I suggest you butt out.

You made it everyones business when you went public. Or is there something about that that you don't get? That is my point, you didn't need to go public, it was uneccessary and a destructive action on your part. Taking your business elsewhere was action enough (or at least would have been for most). Your post was intended to have a negative effect on a man's business, his income and the family he has to support. Why? All because you couldn't have your little piece of hifi heaven RIGHT NOW! What is your problem?

Personal crusade on my part! No I don't think so. I just don't like to see my friends getting attacked just because you chose to throw your dummy out of the pram.

Butt out? Only after I have put my two cents in my friend!

If you don't like the heat then I suggest that you don't start fires in community kitchens.

Matt

Themis

04-12-2009, 17:20

I propose a duel, Sunday morning at sunrise. Matt choses the place and Shaun the arms.
You can choose a witness each.

Marco brings the espresso coffee machine for the spectators and I'll bring a camera to put the event on YouTube. :)

Haselsh1

04-12-2009, 17:27

I think the main issue here is one of creditability and the fact that some dealers have it and some don't. Some dealers run a firm, well established business and some don't. Simply having a good product knowledge doesn't make you a credible dealer, nor does losing your rag in public.

matodono1

04-12-2009, 19:11

I think the main issue here is one of creditability and the fact that some dealers have it and some don't. Some dealers run a firm, well established business and some don't.

Shaun,

You are so cute but you seem to be having a real problem with differentiation.

Firstly the dealer does have creditability, he is on the list! How he chooses to run his business is entirely up to him and I have already explained the ethos and rationale but that post seems to have passed by your particular filtering mechanism. In short creditability does not equal conforming to your hidden standards of what a business should be. The two things are quite different.

Glenn himself is currently not running a CC terminal. Does that mean you are going to slag him off along with our mutual friend Adrian Parsons for how he runs his business also?

You seem to think that because you are the customer that you also have carte blanche to critisize a dealer's business practices on a public forum.

Again one does not equate to or in any way give you the right to do the other. I could sort of understand it if you had been ripped off or abused or mistreated in some way. But none of that occurred. Adrian was simply not in the employ of a CC facility. You would think it was a crime.

you also said...

Simply having a good product knowledge doesn't make you a credible dealer, nor does losing your rag in public.

By inference you are using what I have said to slight the creditability of the dealer. Is it just me? I am Matt O'Donoghue the web designer and Adrian Parsons is the dealer. I have taken issue with you and Adrian has said not one word. Duh! Differences? Need me to draw you a picture?

All it boils down to is that we are dealing with a thoroughly nasty individual who fails to see or admit that in this case he was in the wrong to publicly critisize a good and honest man and for no good reason.

That's the last I have say on this. I have wasted enough of my time.

Matt.

StanleyB

04-12-2009, 19:12

As far as I am concerned, Adrian is one of the nicest guy about in the trade. I am not sure why a card facility should be an issue. It commands a percentage of the sales cost, which on a product costing several £1K can amount to quite a large sum. If a dealer prefers to pass on that saving to a customer, instead of adding it to the price of an expensive product, I am all for that.

This whole thing comes across as a smear campaign against Adrian, and an abuse of AoS to wage a personal vendetta against a valued audio dealer.

anthonyTD

04-12-2009, 20:08

hi all,
well, i think stan has hit the nail on the head, everyone is entitled to their opinion and AOS is all in favour of that but here it would seem a dealers whole reputation is being judged merely on the fact that he dosent accept credit cards!!! :scratch:
A...

Marco

04-12-2009, 21:48

Matt and Shaun,

I'm not taking any sides here (as both of you are right in some respects). The situation, however, has been blown out of all proportion.

Unfortunately this little tête-à-tête has been allowed to fester whilst I've been otherwise engaged.

I'll deal properly with it later. In the meantime, both of you, please take a chill-pill :)

Marco.

Haselsh1

04-12-2009, 22:27

Earlier in this thread I made an open apology for comments made about Adrian. This is something this guy appears to have overlooked in his personal vendetta. I shall not apologise again for something I have already discussed on the telephone with Adrian in person who accepted my comments as a gentleman. This was and still is between myself and Adrian and we did not consider it anyone elses concern.

Themis

04-12-2009, 22:33

Case closed, then. ;) Let's move on : no-one want to buy my Cyrus 8xp, so that I could get the Crofts ? :o

Haselsh1

05-12-2009, 21:30

All it boils down to is that we are dealing with a thoroughly nasty individual who fails to see or admit that in this case he was in the wrong to publicly critisize a good and honest man and for no good reason.

That's the last I have say on this. I have wasted enough of my time.

Matt.

Take a look at post 147 on this thread. There is quite clearly only one particularly nasty lindividual on this forum and it sure as hell isn't me.

colorved

15-01-2010, 15:53

Hello,

I've bought Croft MICRO Basic preamp (without phono).
Right now I have no the opportunity to test it because I have not finished building my new speaker' cabinets.

But when I opened the preamp' cover I was *slightly* disappointed by the ONLY 1 small valve installed :-((( (5965 made in USA with GE logo) instead of 3 beautiful valves according to croftacoustics site. And I can't believe it can sounds so good as described on the forum.

I also read good reviews about Millard ECC83' and expected them inside my new Croft - but can see only (unknown for me) 5965 inside.

Can someone Croft owners inform about the valves installed in MICRO's ?
Or maybe my Croft is not genuine?

Sorry for many questions please help me to recognise my preamp is not a fake-whether. I've bought it from ebay as new.

I think some pics with the cover opened will be very helpful

Vladimir

Ali Tait

15-01-2010, 16:07

I don't know,but I'd guess the other two valves would be for a phono stage if it had one?
Nothing wrong with GE valves.If you want Mullard you'll have to buy them yourself.I'd imagine Glen would not fit these because it would cost too much.

colorved

15-01-2010, 16:19

Hello, Ali
I was also confused because of expected to see at least 2 valves (1 per channel) and can't imagine how 1 valve can produce good imaging for 2 channels simultaneously ... :-0

Stratmangler

15-01-2010, 16:32

Hello, Ali
I was also confused because of expected to see at least 2 valves (1 per channel) and can't imagine how 1 valve can produce good imaging for 2 channels simultaneously ... :-0

It's a dual triode.

Chris:)

colorved

15-01-2010, 16:37

Hello, Chris
Do You think this GE 5965 can be replaced by ECC83 ?
or it's good enough ?

DSJR

15-01-2010, 17:17

To the chap who boight the "line only" version of the preamp...

Yes, of the three valves pictured, two of them are for the phono input and the final one is for the line input, which is a simple circuit, but very effective despite that.

If you're fretting about not having enough valves, buy the superb "R" specified phono stage in a separate box for £500. You'll have plenty to glow about then I assure you...

P.S. CV4003 brimars have arrived for some line stage tube-rolling on my Croft antique.. can't wait :) :cool:

colorved

15-01-2010, 18:32

Now I also received the same confirmation from Glenn Croft.

Having watered with calming balm on my heart, then I'm interested about the valve replacement in future.

Glenn informed me that ECC83 and ECC81 are compatible.

Had anyone listened to this valves or maybe E180CC ?

Ali Tait

15-01-2010, 19:04

Mullard ecc83's are bloody expensive nowadays! I'd say the GE will be very good.You may better it a little,but it'll cost you.

colorved

18-01-2010, 13:25

CV4003 brimars have arrived for some line stage tube-rolling on my Croft antique.. can't wait :) :cool:

Hello, Dave

Do You think these CV4003 Brimars are suitable for modern Croft basic (to replace GE 5965 or ECC83?)
When You taste it please send some briefs about it' sounding.

Vladimir

DSJR

18-01-2010, 17:42

I fitted them and in my old preamp, the line stage calmed down without "slugging" the detail and the phono stage got a bit more bass back (there's something about the phono stage in mine that Glenn wants to alter so that I could use lower impedance pots if I decided to change them).

These Brimars are what I'd call short-plate and still cost a bob or two from Langrex despite being supposedly tested good-used. I'm happy now and love the old thing more than ever..

My memories of HiFi dave's demo Series 25 were that I'd like to put some Mullards in (Glenn recommended Mullard to me), but to be honest, I think any of the better NOS valves may be ok.

Is the ECC81 a lower gain than the ECC83?

colorved

19-01-2010, 08:36

Hello, Dave

It's great You're happy with the upgrade :cool:

Can You inform what valves were before CV4003 Brimars in your Croft pre?

Vladimir

Marco

19-01-2010, 11:10

Hi Dave,

Glad your tube rolling's improved yer Crofty! :)

My memories of HiFi dave's demo Series 25 were that I'd like to put some Mullards in (Glenn recommended Mullard to me), but to be honest, I think any of the better NOS valves may be ok.

In my experience, the sound you get with valves depends on a multitude of factors, so there can be no definitive universal description of the sonic effect each example has. Therefore Mullards may sound superb in one application, and only average in another - and the same applies with any other make of valves.

I've tried loads of different ones in the Charisma, and for me the best ECC83-type (ECC81 or 82 are simply lower gain versions of that) are either Tesla (proper Tesla not JJ) or Telefunken, as these (in my preamp circuit) make Mullards sound rather syrupy and somewhat 'boom 'n' tizz'. In my system, the former have much less of a sonic signature. In general, too, I prefer Brimar to Mullard.

However, like I said, results could be very different in your equipment and system, as there are so many variables!

I often wonder though whether the much larger octal (6SL7) output valves used in my Charisma-X have a somewhat different sonic effect than the much smaller ECC-81s/82s used in yours and other Croft preamps I've seen. There's no way of comparing it, though, but I suspect that (all else being equal) it's likely to give my preamp a different sound from other Crofts...

Anyway enjoy the music, dude! :cool:

Marco.

Ali Tait

19-01-2010, 12:50

Not quite correct there Marco-ecc82 and 83 are very different valves originally designed for very different purposes.They may interchange very favourably in some cases,but it's generally best to stick to what the circuit was designed for,or equivalents.

Marco

19-01-2010, 12:56

Thanks for the clarification, Ali - much appreciated. Aren't they also lower gain too, though, than ECC83s? :)

Marco.

Ali Tait

19-01-2010, 13:10

I can't post links as I'm doing this on my phone,but I'll post more info tonight.

Marco

19-01-2010, 13:15

Ok no worries, dude - that would be useful :)

Marco.

Ali Tait

19-01-2010, 18:34

Ok,a bit of info on these valves-

http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/show.php?des=ECC82

http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/show.php?des=ECC8

It's true the 83 has higher gain than the 82,but if you check the specs in the above links,you will see that pin compatibility aside,they are very different in performance.

The ecc82 has higher current and grid bias requirements,and lower gain,while the 83 has lower current and grid bias requirements and higher gain than the 82.They may work in a given circuit,and work well,perhaps even an improvement in sound,but the fact remains the voltage and current requirements are different for each,and a given circuit may not be suited.Personally,I wouldn't contemplate doing this.The above links provide you with the equivalents. :)

Macca

25-01-2010, 11:54

Just thought I would post my observations on these two areas of the Croft after almost 4 month's use:

Burn-in: I would say approx 80 hrs before it totally 'settled down'

Warm up: Much harder to say - I generally listen for around 3 hours a night and the sound improves continuously up to the end of this period. As an experiment I left it on 24 hours - when I went back to listen again it sounded better than I've ever heard it. I understand it would not be a good idea to leave it powered all the time, though.

Is this usual with valves? Anyone else concur with my findings?

DSJR

25-01-2010, 16:59

Macca

26-01-2010, 20:05

You may find the warm up depends on the valves you're using. After twenty years and a new set of military grade valves, I don't find the preamp to change much, if at all over time from switch-on when compared to the CD player, which, being a TDA1541 type, seems to take a couple of hours to settle.

You may find that the preamp will take less time to settle as it proceeds through its first year of life..

Cheers Dave...it's getting a lot of use so valves will need replacing eventually I suppose. I seem to recall reading somewhere that 5000 -10000 hours is average life for a pre-amp valve - is this anywhere near right?

DSJR

26-01-2010, 21:04

Even more if they're good valves and used properly...

Ali Tait

26-01-2010, 21:08

I don't think you can put a number on it really-too many variables.Top quality NOS will usually last far longer than anything more modern I would say.Keep a spare set,and try them against your normal set.It will become quite obvious if your normal valves are getting tired.

CornishPasty

29-01-2010, 00:31

I too have a Micro Basic line only preamp with the 5965 double triode. I bought it a few weeks old from a good friend of mine who suffered from the same problem as someone else on here in that it went too loud too soon. My intention was to use some resistor attenuators but when I emailed Glenn about this and he advised against using these attenuators saying they would spoil the sound. He did mention changing the value of the feedback resistors but it would probably be too insensitive for my tuner then. Contrary to Glenn's advice I've put a resistor network across input four just for the cdp and it sounds fine to my ears but I do wonder why a new piece of kit should need modifying to make it work acceptably.

DSJR

29-01-2010, 07:45

Glenn doesn't use CD and many old tuners and tape decks have a significantly lower output.

Nothing wrong with a correctly specified T network at the input of your power amp though. It should be inaudible if configured correctly....

Themis

29-01-2010, 10:14

I had no problems when using the Micro Basic preamp with my Denon amplifier and various sources (CD, various dacs with 2V output). I guess this "too loud" problem has more to do with the power amplifier than with the source.

CornishPasty

29-01-2010, 18:39

The designer doesn't use a cd player? What kind of an excuse is that?

DSJR

29-01-2010, 21:08

A perfectly legit one in Glenns case. He isn't selling to the masses, just those that know a decent performance and sound when they hear it. he does do a better quality phono stage for £500 (R spec) if you wanted to use a passive for the line inputs.....

I must admit the gain seems slightly higher on the current ones (a shame to duck it back though) as the volume (twelve o'clock is minimum on Glenn's preamps) is about right on CD set at 1-30 or so, whereas my old 'un is similar at around two to three o'clock by comparison (I haven't compared side-by-side though). As you lot should know by now, I don't play loudly, yet don't have a problem.

This is approximately where HiFi dave and I were listening to the Series 25/7/harbeth 40.1 combination the other month -

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0565.jpg

Glenn has said he can adjust the gain if necessary. I daresay that if enough people ask, he may do this as standard, but like Naim, the built-in phono stage will have less gain and you'll need to turn the volume up a bit.

In my case, the Quad FM3 has the lowest output of all my sources, so the volume gets turned up higher than the vinyl input with most of my cartridges...

P.S. We didn't fire up the Crown despite my knowing it well. The physical condition didn't inspire confidence..

CornishPasty

30-01-2010, 10:07

Before I put the attenuator across the cd input ( #4 ) I daren't use it in the evening. At five past twelve it was too loud and at ten past it blew the windows out. There wasn't much resolution below five past twelve either and the pots are poorly matched which made low level listening difficult.

I know Glenn dislikes putting attenuators on the input and I don't want to alter the value of the feedback resistor so I'm in a bit of a quandry. Maybe it's too much of a niche product for me and I should consider moving it on.

Marco

30-01-2010, 10:53

Gosh, Ralph, the new stuff must be very different then in that respect from my Charisma-X, as I have no such problems whatsoever..... :scratch:

What value are the volume pots on the Micro Basic? On my CX the stereo volume pot is 100k.

Ralph, perhaps you could ask Glenn to fit lower value pots to give you greater control of the volume range?

Also, what power amp are you using - Is there an option of fitting a variable gain control on it? That would instantly solve your problem :)

Marco.

hifi_dave

30-01-2010, 11:51

Macca

30-01-2010, 11:55

I noticed when trying out the Croft series 7 power amp that there is no issue with the gain, presumably as the two were designed to work together. With my Linn power amp there is not much room to maneuver, but enough. So it very much depends on the sensitivity of the power amp as others have stated previously.

DSJR

30-01-2010, 12:08

Obviously it depends on the combination of power-amp, speakers, source and disc if it's CD but if you can get to 5 past 12 on the volume for it to be loud, I'd have thought that OK. Most integrated amps and pre/powers I have used over the years are loud at 11 o/c and unbearable at 1 o/c.

As for poorly matched pots., I have never had any problems in this regard. There is quite a latitude, so you don't need to get them both spot on in the same position for correct balance, just approx will do.

If you have any concerns, Glenn will have a cure for it.

Dave mate, remember that Croft's zero volume is with the indents at TWELVE o'clock, so a tiny increase from zero is deafening this gentleman.

Mr Pasty sir, the attenuators go on the input to the power amp, not the CD input. The volume controls will then be around 4 o'clock for CD (a third of the way up) and half way possibly for vinyl, although I think you said you have the line only version....

Don't worry about the resistors screwing the sound up either! The number of such in all amps makes a couple of extra ones correctly implemented not an audible problem at all..... Just use the correct values to maintain the loading and you'll be fine :)