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The Grand Wazoo
09-10-2009, 23:39
So all you Technics & direct drive casualties - I want to know exactly why I should make the change. But to do that I need to know both sides of the story.

I've seen the oft-repeated remarks about stability & bass & precision, which, of course, I understand would be the result of a well executed & heavily torqued drive system.

I'd like to know about the other stuff. The reason I like Michell TT's is for the soundstage & imaging. Everything else is pretty good, but if I play something like Miles Davis - 'Kind of Blue' or Dexter Gordon - 'Go' I know that I'm going to be able to shut my eyes & 'see' the various players stood in their correct places on a stage with realistic height & width. If they moved their position in relation to the microphone when they were playing, then I will hear this.

I never hear about these aspects of DD TT's. Is it because they don't do it, or because you just don't worry about these things?

We hear plenty about what you like about these devices - this time I'd like you to be honest & tell me what your TT's don't do so well. I'm not trying to be negative, I just want to know the con's as well as the pro's ...and please don't tell me that there aren't any!! God only knows, there are downsides to everything.

So how about it guys? Are you going to come clean?

NRG
10-10-2009, 00:23
Nobody is going to convince you until you sit down and try one for yourself...either an idler (as I did at first) or a DD. On the idler front there a re a few to choose from the Garrard being the most obvious choice then there's the Lenco/Goldring decks and the more rare Thorens TD 124 plus others..... that escape me at this time of night!

I changed from a top spec LP12 of the 90's to a Michell Gyro SE with upgrades to the Orbe platter and PSU (eventually the HR) and just as the Gyro stuffed the Linn the Goldring GL99 I bought off Ebay stuffed the Gyro...

I can't comment on what they do wrong because what they do right simply trounces all over belt drive decks that their failings, if any, simply become insignificant... :eyebrows:

steveinspain
10-10-2009, 05:40
A good thread Mr Wazoo - I too am a Michell(in) man, having sold my LP12 for a gyro, and now with an Orbe - before the Linn I have a massive sony DD thing that weighed a ton, was meant to be very good, but I only had a very basic arm/cart so feel I may have never done it justice (it then got nicked)
I have never seen or heard any other DD TT's, so would like to find out a little more..

REM
10-10-2009, 07:55
I went from an LP12/'Geddon to a fully tricked up 1210 and have absolutely no regrets, the Techie has been a total revelation. People comment on the stability as resembling CD but I think that misses the point, the 12** is surely more akin to good 15ips R2R analogue tape than anything else. As to the Gyro/Orbe, I know what you are saying about the soundstage/imaging but I've always found it does all that at the expense of actually relaying the music, the Techie does the imaging and all the pratty toe tapping stuff as well, in spades:smoking:.

Magna Audio
10-10-2009, 09:38
I am def. listening for imaging and a cohesive performance and instrument realism with say jazz. With folk/rock I want that togetherness a faster beat and band on song can give - I call it boogie factor.
The PL-71 has high boogie factor straight out of the box.
It took me more time and effort to find that with the SL-1210. It was doing everything you've heard, bass timing etc but the music wasn't jelling with the arms / mats I'd tried.
PL-71 arm and mat to the rescue. I think I have the best of both worlds now.
Perhaps that combo just works with AT 33PTG.

I have not owned a LP-12, Gyro or Orbe, Pink thing or VPI. I had a an Ariston RD11E ages ago & a Rega with O.L arm modded arm and I have been to a number of bake offs to compare belts, idlers and DD's and when I hear of the 1000's that some have been spent and what's achieved and compare to a well sorted DD I prefer what the DD gives me.
I listened to what others had said and used my ears and bypassed going belt again.

It's also very practical to use, reliable doesn't need faffing about with and stops and starts quickly:)

If I were to spend loads it would probably be on a SME arm. Tried the terminator parallel air arm too.

Next project is not TT related that's good enough, it's DIY GRF Tannoys.

The Grand Wazoo
10-10-2009, 09:49
This is all good stuff - keep it coming.
But....... no-one thinks there are any downsides!

That must mean you've found the perfect turntable!
I can't believe that. Come on now, gimmee the real story!

DSJR
10-10-2009, 10:05
My experiences are rapidly becoming out of date (:cry:) but I always though that "your average" Gyrodeck was musical but slightly "sloppy" in delivery when compared to a Cirkus LP12. Obviously, the extremely disciplined SME IV and V seems to add a fair share of control to the Gyro proceedings and although I haven't heard one at length, the Orbe is almost certainly on a higher level altogether.

"In my opinion," the best way to go with cord or rubber-belt drive is to have the intertia of the rotating platter as high as reasonably possible, as any wow will be absorbed by intertia and flutter will be next to non-existant. That's the reason why I love and respect the NAS decks so much, as for me, they don't seem to get in the way of the musical drama as it unfolds.

I've also been a long-term fan of the better "classic" idler drives, a well fettled and plinthed 301 or 401, let alone the bargain priced Lenco's out there being almost as quiet as a NAS deck and having all of the pitch stability IMO.

It seems that the Techie drive development stopped in the late seventies/mid eighties, seemingly any further improvements needing KAB and Timestep to progress. There's no doubt the basic drive is exemplary, offering next to zero wow & flutter and very low rumble levels. The main issues have been with the arm (which can be lifted to a good mid-grade level IMO) and with structure isolation (better feet and sorbothane "boots" seem to fix most of this) and better mats etc improve record support.

Get the "audiophile" treatment on an SL1200 and you should have a great deck of high truthfulness to what's there on the source vinyl. You may not always like it,but at least the 1200 won't "flavour" the reporduced sound overmuch like certain other fruitboxes used to do :)

The thing about true top end vinyl systems *to me* has always been the quality of the often sh*tty black plastic discs one plays on them. With a good cut and pressing, one *should* be able to suspend disbelief IMO and not worry about the "mechanics" of the playing mechanisms. I find I can do it with a carefully chosen CD player - others here still can't - whereas I'm currently slowly but surely re-discovering what vinyl can do, hence my sometimes "uncomfortable" current opinions...

Try to get to a colleague on here who can demonstrate to you a fully tricked out Techie. I'm passing on the PL71 as so few are available and it seems that many that get shipped over to the UK from the States are damaged by the time they reach here.

If you still don't "get" the Techie way of doing things, I'd go and listen to a NAS Hyperspace - solid pitch-n-"prat" but involvingly musical with it and an "honest" presentation IMO.

Magna Audio
10-10-2009, 12:01
This is all good stuff - keep it coming.
But....... no-one thinks there are any downsides!

That must mean you've found the perfect turntable!
I can't believe that. Come on now, gimmee the real story!

Ah yes - er no:)
However, probably have found the perfect bang for buck / DIY fiddle around with, makes engineering sense, sounds great, one though.

NRG
10-10-2009, 13:19
The downsides for the techie is that straight out-of-the-box it's not going to better your Gyro. Same goes for any of the idler or DD drives from the 70's / 80's. You are going to have to spend money and time tweaking all of them to better the Gyro be it with the Timestep PSU etc or with servicing and solid plinths for the idlers. The older DD decks will be a lottery some are good like the PL-71 others are quite frankly poor it can be a minefield.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-10-2009, 15:09
i get a bit too much bass at high volumes it becomes distracting... but, i think its the room and position of the tt that causes that

DSJR
10-10-2009, 15:43
Hamish, I'll tell you what it is, but you won't believe me..

Oh heck, I'll spout anyway - IMO, it's PMC transmission lines taking off below 60Hz (and phase cancelling at 120Hz or so) and possibly with little to no amp control. The air pressure these types of speaker generate may just be upsetting the turntable - I say *may just* as I haven't heard your particular setup. A pair of more IB loaded boxes would all but cure your "problem" I think.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-10-2009, 15:55
sell my pmc's.... nnneeeevvvveeeerrrrrr!

...

i need to wait to get in a new house before i think about that sort of thing i think.
if space is at the minimum in the same way it is in here im thinking some stand mouters would be a better option anyway!

DSJR
10-10-2009, 16:05
Look at some Sonus Fabers - Home series onwards Concerto's for a start - even the older ones if they have the height-adjustable stands ;)

Joe
10-10-2009, 16:37
The older DD decks will be a lottery some are good like the PL-71 others are quite frankly poor it can be a minefield.

Indeed. If you ever come across a Sony PST1, find the longest barge-pole you can, and don't touch the Sony with it.

Hypnotoad
11-10-2009, 15:39
I remember a discussion about turntables a while back, we came to the conclusion that obviously some turntables sound a lot better than others.

But most turntables sound different to one another and with all the different cartridge combination's it's nearly impossible to pick a clear winner, and that doesn't even take into account all the tweaks and mods available.

chris@panteg
11-10-2009, 20:23
OK Downsides to the 1200 '

Well i would say the presentation seems a little recessed in the mid ' certainly compared to an LP12 ' which has a much more forward and dominant kind of presentation .

Of course this could be down to the arm and the stock rubber mat i am using ' i did try an acrylic mat and also the funk one , but i didn't like either so have gone back to the stock one for now ' it does suppress dynamics and there is a touch of stodge in the bass ' but its easier to listen to than the funk which i found just too bright .

When i 1st got the 1210 i used it with a AT120e in the stock headshell ' it sounded fine but and this is a big but ' i did not like the way it sounded with classical music ' in particular my copy of Beethoven's 7th (Karajan/BPO) on DG label from 1977 .

The 2nd movement Allegretto just sounded so flat and uninteresting ' i then fitted the DL160 in the sumiko headshell and the Timestep psu and played it again ,

what a difference ' it sounds glorious ' everything just open's up the way it should ' i do think there is no way i would be happy with a 1200 simply as stock standard ' good yes but not quite good enough with the wide range of music that i like .

I need to make one last point though ' i never bought the 1210 to replace anything ' i was without a deck at the time and badly wanted to get back into vinyl replay '
the techy was very cheap at 320 ' and i always wanted to try one ' (i so very nearly bought a Project ) .

Downsides for sure but you don't need to spend that much really ' feet/mat/headshell etc ' the psu and arm are the most expensive upgrades ' timestep @300 ' Jelco 250st 350 , its not silly money compared with some .

The Grand Wazoo
11-10-2009, 21:12
Thanks for this Chris. It's all very interesting.
I'd like to hear from Marco & Dave Cawley next!
Come on guys - Time to tell it like it is!!

Jason P
12-10-2009, 08:37
Well I can only speak for myself here, having rid myself of an Origin Live modded LP12 for a Techie. I'd become increasingly disheartened with the Linn and the incessant tweaks and worries over setup; you know the sort of thing... I could never get the tracking right, never get the suspension set up well, and the only solution seemed to be 'throw money at it!'

So out of the box, my rather battered stock 1210 with a hastily thrown on (and worn) AT OC5 was as good as the Linn, and blow me if it didn't track to the end of the side without a hint of sibilance or distortion.

Now I've lighly modded - no TimeStep or arm yet (though I tried my OL arm without much success IMHO) but I find it a musically involving and enjoyable performer. I haven't yet got the same sense that the room disappears and you're left with the acoustic of the players in quite the same way I had with the Linn (though this was a long time ago, with a working Valhalla and Ittok; not the most accurate combo in many peoples eyes but somehow musically beguiling) but it's close. I think the TimeStep may well go the last way to making that happen.

For me though, the sheer ease of use of the 1210, along with lack of foo fears (is it set up just so, are my chakras aligned, does my rack face north etc.etc.) makes up for shortcomings in the presentation, and I know that for a reasonable outlay I'll have a bloody good deck.

Jason

Dave Cawley
12-10-2009, 09:58
I'd like to hear from Marco & Dave Cawley next!
Come on guys - Time to tell it like it is!!

We have done that, did you listen to ours at the show? Some said it was the best sound at the show!

Regards

Dave

Marco
12-10-2009, 10:13
LOL!

Hi Chris,

What would you like to know that I haven't said umpteen times before? :)

Marco.

chris@panteg
12-10-2009, 10:21
So out of the box, my rather battered stock 1210 with a hastily thrown on (and worn) AT OC5 was as good as the Linn, and blow me if it didn't track to the end of the side without a hint of sibilance or distortion.


Jason

That is so true ' the techy is such no nonsense fit and forget performer ' and for you the best is yet to come ' the Timestep is well worth the dosh .

The Grand Wazoo
12-10-2009, 10:33
Dave,
I couldn't get to the show.

Marco & Dave,
I've only heard you speaking positively & never the negatives - that's the point of my line of questioning. I just don't believe that there are no negatives.

Is this because, if they exist they are not important to you, or do you just not hear them? Either way, it's a natural reaction to only relate the good aspects of your investment or product, so I'm asking you to analyse what you have really critically & tell me if there's something, some aspect of the performance you'd change or improve given the chance.
For example, until I started this thread I can't recall ever reading about the soundstaging & imaging capabilities I put it down to the fact that these things are not important to some people - but they are to me.

I'm not trying to be confrontational or negative in any way, but am genuinely interested.

Marco
12-10-2009, 10:55
Hi Chris,

There is of course no such thing as a 'perfect' turntable, or a 'perfect' anything in hi-fi. Anyway, I see where you're coming from now :)

Negatives? Let me see.........

1) In stock form they're ok but far from being exceptional - about the standard of a Rega P5, I'd say, but different too at the same time in terms of sonic and musical presentation.

2) They're not as well isolated from the effects of vibration/microphony as most belt-drive T/Ts, and this can present problems in some situations.

3) They can sound somewhat 'cold and clinical', lacking in 'musicality' (and rather CD-like) in some set-ups, particularly when modified using a non-'holistic'/un-synergistic approach. Read as: using the wrong off-board PSU/mat/cartridge/arm/feet combination.

4) Fairly expensive to fully 'max-out' in terms of modifications.

5) Even when fully 'maxed-out' the lack of coloration and 'bloom', compared to most belt-drive T/Ts can take a bit of getting used to, and often be perceived as musically 'wrong', when in my opinion what's actually happening is that you're hearing less of the turntable and more of the music on the record.

6) It will always look like a 'DJ-deck' and thus likely be slagged off by the uninitiated.

7) It lacks 'badge snob' status, and so is thus low on the 'prestige value' considered important by blinkered 'audiophiles'.

8) It doesn't make toast.

That's about all I can think of! If anything else comes to mind, I'll let you know. Hope that helps :cool:

Marco.

P.S I should point out that none of the above negatives (save No 6) are present with my own set-up, for what should be obvious reasons.

Stratmangler
12-10-2009, 11:00
Hi Chris,

No worries; I see where you're coming from now :)

Negatives? Let me see.........

1) In stock form they're ok but far from being exceptional - about the standard of a Rega P5, I'd say, but different too at the same time in terms of presentation.

2) They're not as well isolated from the effects of vibration as most belt-drive T/Ts, and this can present problems in some situations.

3) They can sound 'cold and emotionless', lacking in 'musicality' (and rather CD-like) in some set-ups, particularly when modified using a non-'holistic'/un-synergistic approach.

4) Expensive to fully 'max-out' in terms of modifications.

5) Even when fully 'maxed-out' the lack of coloration and 'bloom', compared to most belt-drive T/Ts can take a bit of getting used to, and often be perceived as musically 'wrong', when of course what's actually happening is that you're hearing less of the turntable and more of the music on the record.

6) It will always look like a 'DJ-deck' and thus often be slagged off by the uninitiated.

7) It lacks 'badge snob' status, and so is thus low on the 'prestige value' considered important by blinkered 'audiophiles'.

8) It doesn't make toast.

That's about all I can think of! If anything else comes to mind, I'll let you know. Hope that helps :cool:

Marco.

P.S I should point out that none of the above negatives (save No 6) are present with my own set-up, for what should be obvious reasons.

So yours does make toast ?

Chris;)

Marco
12-10-2009, 11:04
Hahahaha... Of course it does - mine is extra-special because it belongs to the 'infamous' Marco-boy! :lol: ;)

Marco.

chris@panteg
12-10-2009, 11:04
Can i just add

The soundstage ' if that matter's at all is not as wide say as a Gyrodeck/Orbe or my old Voyd for example.

David Price noted this in his review even with an SMEV , but hey the LP12 has a very narrow constricted soundstage to my ears anyway ' but to most Linnie's this matter's not.

The Grand Wazoo
12-10-2009, 11:06
Thanks, Marco.
That's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.
You talk about getting an SP10 at some time in the future. One would conclude that this means there are improvements to be had..........
I don't see the toast slot in the SP10.
It's still a DJ's deck (your words about the 12xx ...not mine!) Though admittedly not the sort of DJ who does weddings!

So what are you looking to improve with that move?

The Grand Wazoo
12-10-2009, 11:08
....... but to most Linnie's this matter's not.

.......because Ivor told 'em it wasn't important - "just listen to the tune".

But these things are vital to me!

Dave Cawley
12-10-2009, 11:14
Negatives? Can't see any, did you read this ? http://www.soundhifi.com/images/Hi%20Fi%20World%20SL-1200.pdf

I think my SP-10 with SME V is overall better but then I have a much more expensive cartridge fitted!

What do you have at present, what have you heard that you like so far?

Regards

Dave

Marco
12-10-2009, 11:19
Hi Chris,


Can i just add

The soundstage ' if that matter's at all is not as wide say as a Gyrodeck/Orbe or my old Voyd for example.

David Price noted this in his review even with an SMEV , but hey the LP12 has a very narrow constricted soundstage to my ears anyway ' but to most Linnie's this matter's not.


That may be the case in some systems, but I don't have any issue of lack of soundstage width (or depth) with the 1210 in my own system. It sounds fully extended and massive.

I've discussed this on the phone with David (whom I'm due to meet up with soon at his place), and we both felt that isolation from the environment plays a big part in what one is liable to experience in terms of the above.

The fact that my 1210 sits on 18 levels of Mana supports, and thus I get next to zero feedback through the speakers when the stylus is placed on the record and the volume turned up full on the preamp, I suspect is quite significant ;)

He also agreed that the minor negatives he perceived in his review of the modified 1210 could have been partly due to the fact that his test sample used the stock feet, and also nothing like the level of isolation present in my set-up.

It is vital that any T/T is sited and supported as optimally as possible, particularly a direct-drive turntable that is much more prone to feedback, and also less well isolated from the environment than most belt-drives, especially when not housed in an uber-substantial plinth to help with these issues, like for example is the case with most SP10s. However, if you put an SP10 in a less than ideal plinth it'll quite simply sound crap! Plinth quality is massively influential with any turntable.

If you really want to hear what the Techy motor unit is capable of, especially when fitted with a Timestep, the whole lot would need to be re-housed in a much more substantial plinth than that which comes as standard. Technics have addressed some issues in that area by optimising (as far as is commercially viable) areas of the deck's construction, but not all of them. This is one of the reasons why I want to obtain an SP10, so I have much more control of this area.

When I pop down to David's place later in the month we intend to do some comparisons/experiments in a few areas prior to my deck being reviewed (for the purposes of assessing the performance of a fully optimised DL-103SA), along with the A23 SUT and A.N.T MM phono stage, in a forthcoming issue of HFW - so watch this space! :)

Marco.

P.S Chris (TGW), I'm just typing a reply to your above post now.

chris@panteg
12-10-2009, 11:37
Hi Marco
That's good to know ' i will be very interested to read the outcome of that '

I still have some way to go in getting the best out of mine .

The Grand Wazoo
12-10-2009, 11:49
What do you have at present, what have you heard that you like so far?


I've got a Gyro with a 'stealth toilet seat' power supply, a Zeta & Koetsu Black. I like this set up for what it does in the imaging'soundstage dept. and also for the bass end.

I don't like anything too bright - some of those AT cartridges in the past have done their best scalping job on me & I've got little enough hair as it is.
I know we all have to select our own set of compromises but so far the Gyro has worked well for me. I'm not really in a position to chuck any money at this just now, but as stated I'm interested in the options.

No, I've never heard a well set up & optimised DD, least of all a Technics one. I have heard the Garrards & Lencos, but not in a situation where I had the opportunity for uninterrupted critical listening.

Dave Cawley
12-10-2009, 12:10
I have a Gyro here with a 12" Jelco, nice but too wobbly for me.

My advice though, if you have doubts on the Technics, and if you are happy with the Gyro, is to keep it and just listen to the music. Life is too short to worry about changing a turntable, in my opinion!!

Regards

Dave

Marco
12-10-2009, 12:54
Hi Chris,


Thanks, Marco.
That's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.
You talk about getting an SP10 at some time in the future. One would conclude that this means there are improvements to be had..........
I don't see the toast slot in the SP10.
It's still a DJ's deck (your words about the 12xx ...not mine!) Though admittedly not the sort of DJ who does weddings!

So what are you looking to improve with that move?


It's a "DJ deck" insofar as even when fully modified it still shares many of the core parts of the standard model (which incidentally of course was never designed as a 'DJ deck' in the first place), along with its aesthetic appearance which is synonymous with its use in pubs and clubs - i.e. outwardly the modified version looks identical to the world famous 'DJ deck' even when modified. Of course, when fully modified, it doesn't share its sonic weaknesses! ;)

Why an SP10?

Well, as Dave C correctly says, a fully modified SL-1200/1210 is 95% as good as an SP10, so me being me, I'm after that extra 5% (which the superior quality motor unit gives), and also:

a) The ability to fit said motor unit into a top-notch and substantial, attractive looking plinth, which will improve things both sonically and visually (it will therefore also no longer look like a 'DJ deck').

b) Have the ability to fit two (or possibly) three different tonearms to my chosen plinth, one of which will be a 12" arm, possibly an SME 312S, Ikeda or Thomas Schick. I haven't decided yet. I will then obtain a quality Ortofon SPU to partner whatever 12" arm I decide to buy, and use this along with the 103SA, as well as all my other cartridges.

c) Lastly, have the ability to use the superb Timestep off-board PSU, dedicated for the SP10, which is an altogether more substantial beast than the one for the SL-1200/1210. Lastly, I will fit one of the superb high-mass copper mats.

When I've finished with it, I'll have in my opinion one of the best turntables available at any price, and it'll still cost a fraction of the likes of a Continuum, or an SME 30................. Don't worry, I'm not abandoning my SPPV principles! ;)

Will that suffice as an answer to your question? :)

Marco.

markf
12-10-2009, 16:25
I think one factor in getting a truly great sound with LPs is making sure that the record is flat.
(and possibly firmly coupled to the platter)

I've noticed several "top of the range" turntables often have either a vacuum hold down or the ability to take a peripheral

record weight,it was only when I started using a peripheral weight on my turntable that I realized this.

Now I don't know if you can try this on a Technics deck ,the platter might not be deep enough.

I wonder if someone were to machine a 3 inch think platter for the the Technics would you hear an

improvement ( I'm going to say yes based on going from a 30mm to 70mm platter on my non Technics TT)

DSJR
12-10-2009, 16:38
May I suggest transferring the Zeta?Black to a sorted Techie? As long as the lid is tall enough, you should get a great sound with none of the floaty pitch, which used to be a weak point in the Gyro at one time.

P.S. I still think the Zeta/KB would sound magnificent on a HyperSpace, but it's like trying to recomment a tricked out Techie on the Naim forum. Apparently, one is either ignored or verbally abused as the wondrous LP12 is the ONLY turntable worth looking at...

John
12-10-2009, 17:44
Chris it might be worth making out that Zeta I did that years ago with Audio Orgami and was worth the effort

The Grand Wazoo
12-10-2009, 19:08
Dave,

May I suggest transferring the Zeta?Black to a sorted Techie?
This is an idea I was chewing on........
Armboard - a Linn pattern one would do it - do they exist for the Technics?


I still think the Zeta/KB would sound magnificent on a HyperSpace
I wouldn't discount this at all..........



Apparently, one is either ignored or verbally abused as the wondrous LP12 is the ONLY turntable worth looking at
..........but I would discount this!!


Chris it might be worth making out that Zeta I did that years ago with Audio Orgami and was worth the effort
..........and I'm certainly considering this. What did he do to yours John?

DSJR
12-10-2009, 19:38
"..........but I would discount this!!"

Please elaborate for me. has the N**m forum suddenly seen the light? :) i dare not go there too often for the sake of my health and blood pressure..

The Grand Wazoo
12-10-2009, 20:27
"..........but I would discount this!!"

Please elaborate for me. has the N**m forum suddenly seen the light? :) i dare not go there too often for the sake of my health and blood pressure..

Sorry, I don't go anywhere near any hifi forum other than this one. I've got no time for stuff like that either. I only ever owned one piece of Linn kit (an arm) and one piece of Naim kit (a CD player by accident).
I couldn't live with an LP12 as my only TT - I recognise and acknowledge it's strengths, but it's not for me thanks!

John
12-10-2009, 21:23
He did a rewire checked the bearings etc came back much improved

markf
13-10-2009, 02:29
I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you've reached the step of owning a
Continuum, or an SME 30 then you've pretty much left the playing with mats stage.

Marco
13-10-2009, 10:00
It'd be nice to own a turntable that could possibly challenge (and perhaps even outperform) both of those at a mere fraction of the price too though, wouldn't it, Mark? :)

I reckon that by the time I've finished my forthcoming SP10 project it won't have cost me much more than 3k in total (after deducting what I get for my fully Sound Hi-fi modified SL-1210) ;)

Happy days!

Marco.

twelvebears
13-10-2009, 11:26
This is all good stuff - keep it coming.
But....... no-one thinks there are any downsides!

That must mean you've found the perfect turntable!
I can't believe that. Come on now, gimmee the real story!

I didn't move from a high-end 'bouncy' deck, mine was just a Manticore Mantra and RB300. Also, I've only got a lightly tweaked 1210 (see signature), but I've been very impressed with the improvements and I know I've a lot more to come with a TimeStep and 'proper' arm.

Additional advantages are having a deck that's as usable and unfussy as they come. Coming from the Mantra, just the joy of push-button speed change was a big plus, rather than cocking about with the belt.

The downside is that you have to put up with people commenting on your 'DJ deck' when they visit....

John
13-10-2009, 13:15
Marco speaking of great vakue TT have you heard the Salvation yet I am very interested in hearing your thoughts

Marco
13-10-2009, 13:46
Hi John,

What's the Salvation? I'm unaware of it, I'm afraid.

Marco.

John
13-10-2009, 15:30
Vic new deck you were going to hear it at Clive's remember

Marco
13-10-2009, 16:01
I've not been there, mate - been too busy. I will go though and let you know how I get on in due course :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
13-10-2009, 20:40
Vic new deck you were going to hear it at Clive's remember

So it is????

Dave

pure sound
13-10-2009, 21:48
Rim drive. Looks interesting

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/Salvation1.jpg

Marco
13-10-2009, 21:54
That's the chap! Knowing Clive's usual high standards, I'm expecting it to be, errm, none too shabby :)

It'll certainly be interesting comparing the Techy to it!

Marco.

Dave Cawley
14-10-2009, 07:41
That does look nice! A link to who they are Guy please?

Thanks

Dave

pure sound
14-10-2009, 08:36
http://www.trans-fi.com/

The Grand Wazoo
15-06-2010, 23:25
Right I'm digging this thread up again because I've just read something that adds to the answers to my original question.

Which was:

We hear plenty about what you like about these devices - this time I'd like you to be honest & tell me what your TT's don't do so well. I'm not trying to be negative, I just want to know the con's as well as the pro's ...and please don't tell me that there aren't any!! God only knows, there are downsides to everything.

So how about it guys? Are you going to come clean?


In this month's Hi-Fi World (July 2010), there's DP's review of the Brinkman Bardo where David says:
"........but one thing the so-called DJ deck doesn't do so well is to provide an easy calm to the proceedings; the Technics is to rhythms what a pogo-ing punk is to ballet, which is fun to behold but not strictly accurate."

and:

"Going back to the SL1200 is pressing a loudness button; there's suddenly a lot more bass energy going through but if anything it's less convincing."

I'm just wondering what you other Technics owners think of these comments? Not that I expect you to have done the comparison between the two, but in absolute terms are they something you might tend to agree with?

Gdg
16-06-2010, 08:33
Talkin'bout this Brinkmann Bardo?
http://www.musictools.eu/docs/x%20brinkmann/Audioreview%20n.%20306%20Brinkmann%20Bardo%20e%20T onearm%2010.5.pdf

So that guy is comparing a 10.000 € TT to a 600 € one??? Did I miss something or that guy is crazy?
-
My experience/opinion.
I own and I compared:
a Rega Planar 3 + RB300 (MY 1994)
an SL 1210 MK5 (same as MK2)
an SL 1210 M5G

Catrtridges:
Rega Elys (MY 1994)
Rega Super Elys (MY 2001)
Stanton 681 EEE MK III
Stanton 680E V.3
Denon DL 160


The plain SL 1200 MK5 is an honest TT, sonically speaking. It has great features carrying a big potential for upgradings. But compared to my Rega Planar 3 + RB 300 there's no fight: its sound is simply "confused", no soundstage, rolled-off treble, gummy bass. But it has a great quality you can love: it smoothens very well the "ssss".
My conclusion is: at Panasonic they know how to do a general purpose entry-level professional TT, but this TT is not suitable for audiophile use.

The M5G, because of an audiophile wiring, beats the Rega system very very bad.
My conclusion: forget about Rega, Ariston, Thorens or TT in the same price target. The stock M5G has no competitors at its price.

But keep in mind this: the simple rewiring of the tonearm and the changing of the phono cable (a couple of kits for about 50 €) will rocket the sonic performance of the MK2/MK5 to another planet: it sound much better of the stock M5G.
My conclusion: buy a SL 1200 MK2, rewire the tonearm with Cardas wires, the phono cable with van Damme cable, stick in a DL 160 and you'll be happy forever.

Of course, if you can afford it, you can upgrade the SL 1200, too, but this is another story.


EDIT: I read the italian article and the redactor said the Bardo sounds much better the the SP10 MKII, "very very near to the EMT 950".

chris@panteg
16-06-2010, 09:30
There is a grain of truth regarding the Bass , its far from perfect but i don't think it can be compared to a loudness button effect .

My main criticism of my deck as it stands , is a tendency to sound too smooth and occasionally dull on some recordings , but that could be the DL160 or maybe its on its way out as i have played it to death for the past 6 months.

But i do find myself craving a brighter sound oddly enough i say this as i am more than happy with my CD playback !.

Its interesting to add that with the Techy arm the sound was much brighter but also more confused and busy sounding , the 309 brings a much calmer presentation but perhaps exposes the limitations of the DL160 or and i have to say this the 1210 itself arguably , i can say this with some confidence as i had the 10' version on my old Voyd .

The Vinyl Adventure
16-06-2010, 10:42
one thing the techie has never lost whatever i do to it is its "poppy" presentation, its sort of "hey HEY listen to me" .. thats what i have always wanted from hifi and ideed why i likeed the stock 1210 more than my xerxes... i cant imagine for one minute that is what everyone wants from thier hifi though

Gdg
16-06-2010, 10:43
There is a grain of truth regarding the Bass , its far from perfect but i don't think it can be compared to a loudness button effect .

My main criticism of my deck as it stands , is a tendency to sound too smooth and occasionally dull on some recordings , but that could be the DL160 or maybe its on its way out as i have played it to death for the past 6 months.

But i do find myself craving a brighter sound oddly enough i say this as i am more than happy with my CD playback !.

Its interesting to add that with the Techy arm the sound was much brighter but also more confused and busy sounding , the 309 brings a much calmer presentation but perhaps exposes the limitations of the DL160 or and i have to say this the 1210 itself arguably , i can say this with some confidence as i had the 10' version on my old Voyd .

Chris, the DL 160 is a nice budget cartridge. I do love it and its sound is very good in a basic system, but a SME 309, well, deserves a better one.

On the M5G stock tonearm comparing the DL 160 and the DL 103SA, well, no competition. The DL 160 looses almost on every feature: less basses, less soundstage, less transparency on middles, but I have to say that the high frequencies are better coming out the DL 160 (but we know that, the DL 103 has a conical stylus)

To be honest about the SL 1200, I have to point out how better the DL 160 sounds since I installed the MN bearing & the HE PSU. That means to me the the SL 1200 has its own mechanical limits, too.

The Vinyl Adventure
16-06-2010, 10:48
one thing the techie has never lost whatever i do to it is its "poppy" presentation, its sort of "hey HEY listen to me" .. thats what i have always wanted from hifi and ideed why i likeed the stock 1210 more than my xerxes... i cant imagine for one minute that is what everyone wants from thier hifi though

that said ... i dont really understand why people dont want thier system to do that... whats the pint in hifi that doesnt make you want to listen to it...

chris@panteg
16-06-2010, 11:53
Good point Hamish/Bodger Gill

its got to get you going otherwise ' well may as well listen to nasty DAB radio .

REM
16-06-2010, 12:02
There is a grain of truth regarding the Bass , its far from perfect but i don't think it can be compared to a loudness button effect .

My main criticism of my deck as it stands , is a tendency to sound too smooth and occasionally dull on some recordings , but that could be the DL160 or maybe its on its way out as i have played it to death for the past 6 months.



Hi Chris

Could do worse than having a look at the VE site, there is a guy on there selling some NOS Zu 103,s for 300euro (250) so if you can manage it that would sort out any bass problems, apologies for pointing people to other forums but the chance to get hold of one of those carts should not be passed up IMHO!

As to the review, well DP had to say something to justify the extra money for the Brinkman what he didn't do was quantify those differences....



;)

Marco
16-06-2010, 12:16
that said ... i dont really understand why people dont want thier system to do that... whats the pint in hifi that doesnt make you want to listen to it...


Good point, Hamish. I feel exactly the same about the addictive way the Techie presents music. When you get things right, in my experience it's one of the most musically alluring turntables I've heard at any price.

It's not perfect (even when heavily modified), nothing is, but it seems to have the uncanny knack of allowing one to 'listen through' its faults and concentrate solely on the music, in the process conveying feeling and emotion in recordings believably and effortlessly. For me, such qualities are priceless and rather rare.

Before when I used belt-drive T/Ts, of any description, especially the various LP12s I had, I was always listening out for faults in recordings, analysing the sound, not to mention worrying if the deck was 'out of tune', or if the belt was stretched or worn.

Low and medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts, in my experience, often appear to showcase their faults at the expense of how well otherwise they reproduce music, which is the opposite of the Techie, and also to my ears have a distinctive 'sound' (a wavering effect on the pitch of certain notes), due mainly to speed stability issues. There is also a somewhat 'ploddy' effect to bass notes (which appear as 'slower' and less 'stop/start', if you will, compared to a good D/D deck) that once identified is difficult to ignore, and in fact can be rather distracting and annoying!

High-quality direct-drive T/Ts, like a modified SL-1200/1210, although undoubtedly having their faults and a sonic signature of their own, simply do not exhibit the above traits, and for me, this outweighs any negatives, such as their rather 'dry', matter-of-fact presentation and coolness of tone, most of which can be tuned-out with the appropriate choice of arm and cartridge.

Why do you think I like vintage cartridges so much (and tonearms like the Jelco), which are weightier sounding and have a rather more 'organic' presentation than their modern counterparts? The answer is simply because they synergise so well with the sonic signature of the Techie.... It's that 'Ying and Yang' thing again known as holism/synergy..... ;)

In that respect, the SPU I've just fitted has combined to create an effect so musically addictive that I can hardly tear myself away from playing record after record. I was up until 4am this morning listening to choons!!

Going back to Chris' question, Giovanni makes a good point. It's perhaps a little unfair to compare a 2000 (modified) Techie with a 5.8k Brinkmann. However, I'm confident that if both were used side-by-side in the same system, with the same arm and cartridge, the results would be closer than you think.....

I've read the article Chris is referring to and found it an informative and fascinating read, with IMO, David really getting to grips with the difference between belt and direct-drive T/Ts, which largely mirrors my own experiences.

What did you think of the points he made, Chris (TGW) or t'other Chris, if you've read the article?

However, this:


but one thing the so-called DJ deck doesn't do so well is to provide an easy calm to the proceedings; the Technics is to rhythms what a pogo-ing punk is to ballet, which is fun to behold but not strictly accurate.


…is not something I can really relate to when listening to my deck. "An easy calm to proceedings" is precisely what I think a judiciously fettled Techie excels at!

Yes, I take his point about rhythms, and in some ways he's right, but it's not quite as clear-cut as that. Furthermore, as far as I know, David has not heard the Techie with a Mike New bearing fitted, and/or with a better PSU than the stock Timestep, both of which make a huge difference to how the deck handles the very areas of musical presentation David is referring to.

I know because I've got both of the items concerned! And that's even before we consider what the new platter and plinth will do......

And this:


Going back to the SL1200 is pressing a loudness button; there's suddenly a lot more bass energy going through but if anything it's less convincing.


...is simply not something I've ever experienced with my own deck. Bass is there, and plentiful (tight, visceral and tuneful) when it should be there, but never exaggerated, and with no artificial warmth and syrupy bloat, like I often hear with low to medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts.

In fact, in terms of the Techie's bass characteristics, it behaves rather like high-quality (huge) loudspeakers do, which sometimes can sound somewhat bass-light until the programme material demands differently, and then explode into life with massive room-shaking gravitas and authority, almost pummelling you into submission. It's an effect I'm well used to with my Tannoys. The Techie does this when the music demands, but never superimposes bass weight onto recordings where it never existed in the first place.

I get where David's coming from, but I think that in order for him to make an accurate comparison between a fully-modified Techie and the Brinkmann, or any top-notch belt-drive T/T, he a) needs to hear the effect of the Mike New bearing, and something like a Paul Hynes PR3/5 or HE PSU and b) analyse an SL-1200/1210, thus modified, using the same arm and cartridge, side-by-side with the above T/Ts in the same system, as 'musical memory' is rarely indisputably reliable.

Marco.

Joe
16-06-2010, 12:23
that said ... i dont really understand why people dont want thier system to do that... whats the pint in hifi that doesnt make you want to listen to it...

Maybe different things will make different people want to listen; some will prefer soundstage over PRaT, some will want lots of detail while others will want 'the big picture' etc etc etc.

My Xerxes does all the above thankyouverymuch!

The Vinyl Adventure
16-06-2010, 14:46
I'm sure it does joe, Mine didn't work for me, but let's face it there is quite a lot of variables to take into account... Especially concidering this is a xerxes we are talking about!

DSJR
16-06-2010, 16:13
The Xerxes could sound extremely fine, with very low surface noise and no swimmy pitch either from memory. There was a certain scrappiness unless you used a refined cartridge and preamp. The Arta-Xerxes) was a very fine little RIAA stage as I recall and it fitted at the base of their tonearms - just the right place for it.

There aren't many turntables that have made me sit up and think "Fuggin' 'ell" and I've gone on far too much about the make that has consistently done that for me over the decades. The Techie I'm sure has a slightly "dark" tone to it as all its stock predecessors did, but I'm sure the mods remove the negative effects of this.

Marco, unless you had a truly top range LP12/Arm/cart with immaculate setup, you wouldn't have been able to easily hear recording and production faults as the deck wouldn't allow you to. The current slurp-fest version is a rather different animal I reckon, but can be easily equalled for a third of the 15,000 I understand one has to pay these days for the "best" version.

Rare Bird
16-06-2010, 16:57
The Xerxes could sound extremely fine, with very low surface noise and no swimmy pitch either from memory. There was a certain scrappiness unless you used a refined cartridge and preamp. The Arta-Xerxes) was a very fine little RIAA stage as I recall and it fitted at the base of their tonearms - just the right place for it.

There aren't many turntables that have made me sit up and think "Fuggin' 'ell" and I've gone on far too much about the make that has consistently done that for me over the decades. The Techie I'm sure has a slightly "dark" tone to it as all its stock predecessors did, but I'm sure the mods remove the negative effects of this.

Marco, unless you had a truly top range LP12/Arm/cart with immaculate setup, you wouldn't have been able to easily hear recording and production faults as the deck wouldn't allow you to. The current slurp-fest version is a rather different animal I reckon, but can be easily equalled for a third of the 15,000 I understand one has to pay these days for the "best" version.

I bought a 'Xerxes' when it first came out, at the time i thought it the best sounding deck i'd ever heard & still do think they sound great...Dunno if anyone noticed but the 'Xerxes' appeared on one of the Inspector Morse episodes

Joe
16-06-2010, 17:05
I bought a 'Xerxes' when it first came out, at the time i thought it the deck i'd ever heard & still do think they sound great...Dunno if anyone noticed but the 'Xerxes' appeared on one of the Inspector Morse episodes

Indeed, and by a strange co-incidence I was watching an episode of Inspector Morse when the chap from The Sound Organisation came round to set up my Xerxes!

colinB
16-06-2010, 17:27
I thought that was a wierd review when i read it.
But Dave Price is a bit of a Tecno/ dance music fan and when i think of the 1200 i associate it with the character of that music. I think his description is comming from that perspective, the 1200 as a bouncy party animal.

To take a daft example, if you went to a big 90s super club and the star DJ decided to use a couple of Project TTs that night instead of the usual technics, the sound would have been lifeless and you would have had a flop night on your hands.

Marco
16-06-2010, 17:45
Hi Dave,


Marco, unless you had a truly top range LP12/Arm/cart with immaculate setup, you wouldn't have been able to easily hear recording and production faults as the deck wouldn't allow you to.


I agree. But I wasn't talking solely about production faults; I was talking mainly about the sonic deficiencies of the deck itself...

For some reason these appeared to highlight themselves, and shift one's attention from the music accordingly, in a way that the Techie doesn’t with its sonic deficiencies, where one instead is allowed to 'listen through' them and concentrate on the music (Hamish alluded to this earlier) - and nearly all belt-drive T/Ts I've heard to date do the former more or less to the same degree.

I suspect it's partly to do with the speed accuracy of the respective drive systems (or lack of it in some cases), and how this manifiests itself on aspects of pitch and timing when music is reproduced.

That's the point I was making, muchacho :)

The exception to the rule was the Platine Verdier and Scheu Analog Premier I heard a while back. Those were sublime in almost ever respect, and gave a goodly dose of the grippy, sphincter-tight bass, 'glassy clarity', massive detail and dynamics, and lack of cloying, soporific coloration I like with vinyl replay, and indeed which I get from my modded Techie.

Anyway, I'm off now to listen to some more tunes through my latest acquisition, which is one of the most musical sounding cartridges I've had the pleasure to hear in a very long time:


http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9652/spu.gif (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/spu.gif/)


Goodness me does it positively LURVE the Jelco and the Croft's valve phono stage to create truly beguiling results, even if at the moment the A23 SUT doesn't quite have enough gain for the SPU's vanishingly low output... Dees ees SYNERGY, man, with a capital 'S'! :guitar:

Laters....

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
16-06-2010, 23:52
Sorry to leave my comments for so long after baiting you all with my revival of this thread.

I found the article very interesting which is unusual for me, as I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the audio press month on month.

I hope David sees this & can comment because I think the remarks about his comparison of the two decks were perhaps a teeny little bit disingenuous. I think he was referring to the Technics because it's something many readers may have heard at least briefly - a touchstone for an element of perspective on his comments on the Brinkman.

I get the feeling that he sees a competant DD TT as a compelling option but only one of a range of equally viable ones. Horses for courses. I suspect he sees, and values the same virtues in the Michell turntables as I do.
Maybe one day we'll see something that covers all the bases at a reasonable cost.

Marco
17-06-2010, 00:02
Hi Chris,


I get the feeling that he sees a competant DD TT as a compelling option but only one of a range of equally viable ones.


Indeed he does, and I've chatted on the phone with him at length about this very subject many times. He's also absolutely correct.

I also feel that he's got an excellent handle on the presentational differences of both the D/D and B/D approaches, when done well, and captures precisely why, whilst I understand what people find attractive with the latter, I don't really get on with them outside of the hugely expensive high-mass solutions.

I'll touch more on this tomorrow and qualify my comments with direct quotes from David's article on the Brinkmann.

Right now I'm off to spin more tunes on my 'DJ deck' with its recently fitted new cartridge! :rave:

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
17-06-2010, 00:06
Right now I'm off to spin more tunes on my DJ deck with its recently fitted new cartridge!

You bugger you!
I said DD TT. I've never called it that!

Marco
17-06-2010, 00:08
No, but David referred to it rather flippantly as such in his article ;)

Laters!

Marco.

Techno Commander
27-06-2010, 01:15
one thing the techie has never lost whatever i do to it is its "poppy" presentation, its sort of "hey HEY listen to me" .. thats what i have always wanted from hifi and ideed why i likeed the stock 1210 more than my xerxes... i cant imagine for one minute that is what everyone wants from thier hifi though

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Gaining enjoyment and excitement from music is why we are listening to it in the first place. I dont play records to analyse them, I play them to make me happy. The Technics is rather good at doing that.

It is also probably one of the most reliable and bomb proof decks on the market. Approaching this from my pro audio perspective, I have seen these decks subjected to things that would make many audiophiles cry, but they still soldier on and deliver the goods.

I havnt heard one modified further than an arm rewire and a decent (non DJ) cartridge, but am intrigued as to what they can deliver with a bit of cash thrown at them. Old platters make rather good wall clocks as well.

DSJR
27-06-2010, 09:54
This isn't baiting and I don't have the space or free funds to do this, but I wish Marco could spare a ton or so and buy an early Rega Planar 2 in good fettle and do some listening. The reason? to confirm or silence these people who claimed the planar 2 was better than any of the Jap direct drives of the period. HiFi dave could help with new parts such as belt, correct oil etc and the R200 is up to many of the mid priced mc's if not the SPU (it may just be..;)). It's got to have the ex-Linn rubber mat though (I had one, and shall have to look it out).

It's just that there's something about the way old Rega's made music and for a ton or less I think I'd rather have one than a more recent pro-Ject. Just my view.

Marco
27-06-2010, 12:18
Lol.... If anyone's got an old Rega, and wants to send it to me for such a test, then I'll gladly do it, otherwise I'd rather put the 100 to my summer wine fund! :cheers:

Personally, though, I don't see the point. Aside from the R200 tonearm (which I do rate), what's the difference between an old P2 and a new one, and why would the old one be better?

I also seriously doubt that the R200 is better than a Jelco SA-750, so what exactly are we comparing? :)

I'd agree that an old P2 with an R200 would likely sound better than a current one, simply because I don't really rate the RB250/300 and have always considered the Acos-derived R200 much more musical sounding, but that's it.

The fact is, in absolute engineering terms, ANY Rega turntable is a toy compared with an SL-1200/1210, and sonically, once the latter has been suitably modified, only a P9 would present it any type of challenge. I know because over the years I've been through the whole of the Rega T/T range.

The most recent comparison I've done was against a 'race-tuned' P5 I had (with a T/T PSU, Audio Origami stripped and polished Cardas rewired RB700 with custom-made brass counterweight and Funk Firm Achroplat), before I sold my soul to the devil and went D/D, and my (then) newly purchased KAB-modified SL-1210 (with KAB PSU, rewired and fluid-damped stock arm, Isonoe feet and Herbie's mat), and the Techie annihilated the Rega in every conceivable way!!

Therefore, I think comparing my (now) even more highly modified Techie against an old P2 would be rather pointless, don't you think? :eyebrows:

The guy who uttered that nonsensical statement is a well-known (and rather blinkered) dyed-in-the-wool flat-earth Naimee, and he's simply trotted out the type of bollocks peddled by such individuals back in the days when belt-drives (and in particular Linns and Regas) could do no wrong, and all D/Ds were pigeonholed as 'Jap crap' YAWN! :rolleyes:

Marco.

DSJR
27-06-2010, 13:21
I just want to put this stupid thing to rest (in some quarters) that an early Planar 2 (for that is when these "comparisons" were done) will wipe the floor with any far eastern direct drive deck no matter what they're fitted with... It's one of those things that I'd like to see done today..

There's no denying that R200 equipped Rega's have a lovely sense of musical "flow" to them and IIRC the speed wasn't quite as fast as the post 83 - 2000 era ones. The feedback levels were lower than RB fitted ones though.

Actually, DW thought the same, but he did express a desire yesterday to hear the L-07D again and fairly in a modern system context. As Dave has such a Planar 2 now (awaiting the rubber mat when I can find it), the closest we're going to get is to compare it with my TD125/R200 and my 701 and SL150 which isn't really the same as neither have the super-dooper motor characteristics of the 1200 and SP10.

If I ever get to do this silly comparison in the Summer hols I'll report..

Marco
27-06-2010, 13:43
It is a rather silly comparison, but I'd be interested in your thoughts when you get round to it :)

What really rips my knitting with this sort of stuff is hearing nonsense such as: 'it's more musical' or 'more tuneful/plays the tune better' being trotted out by 'old school' flat-earth fanboys as an apparent reason why 'ye old favourite flat-earth T/Ts' are supposedly better than something which is fundamentally more accurate at reproducing what's actually recorded on the vinyl itself, such as an SP10, modified SL-1200/1210, or L-07D.

I'm almost certain that if some appropriate measurements were carried out this would be revealed as the case.

What they really mean is that they enjoy the way Regas, etc, colour the sound and they prefer this to other T/Ts which do not imbue the sound with such euphonic coloration, and thus deem those, because of this pleasing (to them) coloration, as being more 'musical' or more 'tuneful'. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever, but it's got bugger all to do with those T/Ts being factually more 'tuneful' or 'musical', as such things are entirely subjective.

It's rather like someone preferring their chips with ketchup on them, as opposed to someone else who prefers just the taste of the 'raw' potato. Whilst I love ketchup on my chips, when it comes to music reproduction, where I can I'll always reject the intrusion of artificial flavourings! ;)

Marco.

P.S I'm just about finished the review of my experiences at Dave Anderton's place when hearing his quite superb L-07D in comparison with my Techie, so look out for that on Monday. My apologies for the delay, people, but when the weather's so nice, the last thing I want to do is stay indoors typing up a very lengthy 'essay' :cool:

Barry
27-06-2010, 17:58
I just want to put this stupid thing to rest (in some quarters) that an early Planar 2 (for that is when these "comparisons" were done) will wipe the floor with any far eastern direct drive deck no matter what they're fitted with... It's one of those things that I'd like to see done today..

There's no denying that R200 equipped Rega's have a lovely sense of musical "flow" to them and IIRC the speed wasn't quite as fast as the post 83 - 2000 era ones. The feedback levels were lower than RB fitted ones though.

Actually, DW thought the same, but he did express a desire yesterday to hear the L-07D again and fairly in a modern system context. As Dave has such a Planar 2 now (awaiting the rubber mat when I can find it), the closest we're going to get is to compare it with my TD125/R200 and my 701 and SL150 which isn't really the same as neither have the super-dooper motor characteristics of the 1200 and SP10.

If I ever get to do this silly comparison in the Summer hols I'll report..

Don't go distracting Marco, Dave!

We're already eagerly awaiting Marco's report of his Dave Cawley fettled Technics DD vs. the Trio L-07D.

Regards

DSJR
27-06-2010, 19:33
Sorry all :lol:

bigmoog
27-06-2010, 20:30
I have just run my vintage Franklandian Planar2 with RB 200,Linn K9 against my 1210 DD with vintage jelco and Audiotechnica phonocartridge......playing identical LPs through my all naim system on 33 mana tables.......

speakers were linn Kans, my 'briks were being used to bury my dear departed mother in law

the result:

My fully fettled and kettled LP12 with rankinian and stewardian upgrades handily beat both with its superb PRAT....my head just nodded and my feet just tapped:ner::);)

Marco
27-06-2010, 20:35
... Aye, and then the alarm went off! ;)

Marco.

Mike
27-06-2010, 20:46
when the weather's so nice, the last thing I want to do is stay indoors typing up a very lengthy 'essay'

It's a bloody laptop... take the sodding thing outside with you! :door:

Marco
27-06-2010, 20:55
Yes I'm sure the friends I had round and Del would've been impressed by that, ya daftee! :ner:

Marco.

DSJR
28-06-2010, 08:26
I have just run my vintage Franklandian Planar2 with RB 200,Linn K9 against my 1210 DD with vintage jelco and Audiotechnica phonocartridge......playing identical LPs through my all naim system on 33 mana tables.......

speakers were linn Kans, my 'briks were being used to bury my dear departed mother in law

the result:

My fully fettled and kettled LP12 with rankinian and stewardian upgrades handily beat both with its superb PRAT....my head just nodded and my feet just tapped:ner::);)

Ello BM, how are you these days?

Have you got your main system up and running now? I could have done with some support when I was ranting for Decca's and railing against SPU's.. :D

P.S. Just looked at the current recent TeeDee discography - Edgar's having a laugh isn't he? A million compilations and a few dozen studio releases in five years. How the hell does he expect paupers like me to keep up????

DSJR
28-06-2010, 08:29
Actually, from a different viewpoint, the Planar 2 is a masterpiece of careful engineering, putting the best bits where needed and scaling back where not. I suspect the lack of mass would give a much "faster" quality to bass instruments (less "leaden" sounding) and the R200 would add some charm to the proceedings too - IMO

Roy Gandy is ex Ford Motors IIRC. that would explain it.

Marco
28-06-2010, 09:18
Hi Dave,


Actually, from a different viewpoint, the Planar 2 is a masterpiece of careful engineering, putting the best bits where needed and scaling back where not.


Eh - you're 'avin a larf, aren't ya??? :lol:

Are you referring to the exquisite and innovative use of MDF or the two-and-a-half-pence PSU, motor and elastic band? :D

Don't get me wrong, the Rega is a good budget deck with a half-decent tonearm, and it's British made, but that's it - a "masterpiece of careful engineering" it is not; more like built to a price to create a particular sonic effect and (rather coloured) way of music-making.

Examine an SL-1200 (or any decent Jap direct-drive T/T) and a P2 side-by-side, and you'll see which one is a masterpiece of engineering!!


I suspect the lack of mass would give a much "faster" quality to bass instruments (less "leaden" sounding)


Less leaden sounding than what exactly? No offence, Dave, but your 'suspicion' is completely unfounded.

First of all, the P5 I had most recently (a much superior deck than the P2), with Rega's T/T PSU fitted, did not "give a much faster quality to bass instruments", in fact in comparison with my modified 1210, quite the reverse. The P2, with no high-quality off-board PSU, would be even worse.

With the P5, bass instruments were much more 'leaden' sounding and had a thickness and 'padded' quality, compared to the lightning-fast transient attack of the 1210's bass - and it's also as tight as a gnat's arse, extremely tuneful and rhythmically spot-on, unlike ANY low-mass belt-drive T/T I've heard to date. Speed of transient response is one of the 1210's biggest strengths, Dave!

The same can also be said of any high-quality direct-drive T/T, largely because of their rock-solid speed stability, the effect of which impacts on how realistically bass is reproduced almost more than anything else.

Contrast that with a Rega, which I think you'll find measures rather poorly in the speed stability/W&F stakes, for obvious reasons, and it soon becomes obvious which one is 'slower' and more leaden sounding :eyebrows:

Me thinks you're trying to boost your mate hifi dave's sales of Rega T/Ts by attempting to paint a poor picture of Jap direct-drives! ;)


I could have done with some support when I was ranting for Decca's and railing against SPU's..


Our argument, Dave, was never about SPUs vs. Deccas.

And anyway, I believe Jonathan is also a fan of SPUs, even though he prefers Deccas, so you should listen to him in that respect. In terms of cartridges, he rates Deccas, the Denon DL-103 and SPUs, as do I. Therefore, quite clearly, he is a man of impeccable taste!! :respect:

Marco.

bigmoog
28-06-2010, 09:56
Hello Dave Im ok mate, still recovering from illness, the main system is still not completely running, two deccas out for retip and am waiting for the arrival of 'being bothered'.....as for TD, the gig at RAH was nice, and the recent 180gm vinyl issues are lovely and fat sounding

marco, here is my definitive scoring of decca, spu, denon...Im using the M.I.T scale based on the research using the collomskessler algorithm:

Decca: In the right arm on a non 3 point suspension TT and with all other parameters correct, 100%, the greatest phonograph cartridge of all time...unless you count a non working troika

Denon: DL103 and R etc, etc, 90% and deserves every respect as it does the job it was designed for and is brilliant, nothing wrong with it....

SPU: 89%, the greatest expression of the moving coil ever created and makes the reproduction of recorded music sound musical...but only in a woodbody headshell on a thorens......

all three are all you need, everything else is just expensive posing:)





PS: the rega planar 2 is an adequately engineered deck and properly set up will nearly outperform a Linn LP12 of any vintage unless the Linn has been upgraded to latest 'specification'....get your platinum card ready....;)

PPS: Direct Drives can only be surpassed by idler drive, thread drive high mass and air bearing non contact drives or 100K Ozzie superduper decks........fact....er possibly

PPS: the classic 3 point suspension TT is massively flawed from an engineering view point* and is a cul de sac of pain.....(and im a former Linn, Voyd an Gyro owner......)

*study engineering science at Oxford, Cambridge or your local job centre plus and you will know what I mean

chris@panteg
28-06-2010, 10:10
Great post BG , i must say that suspended 3 point decks can be a real pain in the proverbial and in my listening room (bouncy floor) a disaster unless i have a wall shelf handy .

Marco
28-06-2010, 10:30
Hi Jonathan,


marco, here is my definitive scoring of decca, spu, denon...Im using the M.I.T scale based on the research using the collomskessler algorithm:

Decca: In the right arm on a non 3 point suspension TT and with all other parameters correct, 100%, the greatest phonograph cartridge of all time...


I wouldn't dispute that, but have yet to hear it for myself. In that respect, Barry's sending me a London Gold to try, which he's setting up in a headshell for me to use on the Jelco, as I believe Deccas need 'fettling' correctly to give of their best.

The Decca should certainly 'like' the phono stage in the Croft, as we all know Glenn is a massive Decca fan, so I should be able to give a pretty accurate analysis of it in comparison with both the SPU and DL-103. I'm looking forward to that :)


Denon: DL103 and R etc, etc, 90% and deserves every respect as it does the job it was designed for and is brilliant, nothing wrong with it....


Aside from the pretty awful plastic body-shell of the standard model, I agree 100%!


SPU: 89%, the greatest expression of the moving coil ever created and makes the reproduction of recorded music sound musical...but only in a woodbody headshell on a thorens......


Tell yer mate Davey-boy that! Again I wholeheartedly agree, although I've not heard one in a wood body on a Thorens. I, however, can certainly confirm that it sounds as you describe in its new high-quality wood resin body, on the end of a Jelco SA-750 (A.K.A Ortofon TA-100), on an SL-1210 :cool:


all three are all you need, everything else is just expensive posing:)


Lol - how true is that! Although when you add up the cost of all three (depending on which models of SPU and Decca are chosen) I suppose it adds up roughly to the same cost as a 'poseurs MC'! ;)


PS: the rega planar 2 is an adequately engineered deck and properly set up will nearly outperform a Linn LP12 of any vintage unless the Linn has been upgraded to latest 'specification'....


Yup, I'd probably go with that, although I suspect that a properly set-up LP12, of half-decent spec (Keels, etc, aside), would trounce a P2, no matter how well set-up....


PPS: Direct Drives can only be surpassed by idler drive, thread drive high mass and air bearing non contact drives or 100K Ozzie superduper decks........fact....er possibly


Again, I can go with that, although personally I've yet to hear an idler-drive T/T I'd swap for my Techie, and I've heard a few TD-124s, Garrards and Lencos. That's not to say though I don't appreciate the areas they excel in.


PPS: the classic 3 point suspension TT is massively flawed from an engineering view point* and is a cul de sac of pain.....(and im a former Linn, Voyd an Gyro owner......)


That's certainly been my experience so far, but as with anything else, if I hear an example of such that convinces me differently, then I will gladly hold my hands up and acknowledge it!

In addition to what you've written above, in my experience so far I'd say that the classic low-mass/medium-mass belt-drive design is also fundamentally (and fatally) flawed, no matter how much one 'pimps' other aspects of its design. One could refer to it as 'polishing a turd', but of course I wouldn't be so rude ;)

Marco.

chris@panteg
28-06-2010, 11:07
Marco ' if you can take a listen to Pete's AN Voyd ref you might just fall in love with it ' just might i say , then again many were saying England just might win the World cup LOL .

But unlike England , a well set up Voyd does not dissapoint but it can be a pain to set up and keep it that way, well for me anyway.

Marco
28-06-2010, 11:21
Hi Chris,

Well Guy rates it (and obviously Pete) so that's good enough for me! :)

I don't doubt that the Voyd is excellent, and of course I might absolutely love it, but in my experience, all the various drive systems (D/D, belt/string and idler) have a certain inherent 'sound', regardless of how else they are designed.

The fact is my ears have now 'tuned into' and become accustomed to the sound of direct-drive, done well. It's a style of presentation which allows me to 'connect' with music in a way which, so far, I've not heard from any other type of turntable, no matter how well-implemented its design principles are. Many others, I suspect, feel the exact same way about belt-drive or idler.

However, as always, my mind remains firmly open to suitable persuasion to the contrary! :cool:

Marco.

chris@panteg
28-06-2010, 11:51
Marco ' yes your quite right, and i would say the Voyd certainly does have its own sound! its a sort of luxurious type of presentation slightly understated but very seductive and so very different to an LP12 , or quite a bit better to me .

alfie2902
28-06-2010, 12:02
Marco ' if you can take a listen to Pete's AN Voyd ref you might just fall in love with it ' just might i say , then again many were saying England just might win the World cup LOL .

But unlike England , a well set up Voyd does not dissapoint but it can be a pain to set up and keep it that way, well for me anyway.

I've had the pleasure of listening to Pete's Voyd Ref :eyebrows: & it sounded superb! I believe some 3 point suspended belt driven decks are every bit as good as the better DD & Idler-drive tables! They each have there own strengths & weaknesses to overcome, but all can make very fine turntables indeed! It's just a personal preference thing IMO!

Pete's Voyd had Guys Alphason Xenon arm on (not the AN) & his Io Ltd cart when I arrived. It was sounding rather special the Voyds got a very solid sounding presentaion :eek: The purpose of my trip to Pete's was to let him try my FR-64 on his Voyd & boy did it work well :eyebrows: the Io Ltd is a very special cartridge indeed (Probably the best cart I've heard to date) & worked very well with the FR-64 on the Voyd sounding a little more musical than the very nice Xenon. We also tried speedy-Steve's SPU Silver M on the Voyd/FR-64 & again a superb combo! A little less detailed than the Io with perhaps a little more bass & oh sooo smoooth! As if the SPU & FR-64 were made for each other!

All this was done in an evening so no fine tuning at all, just plug & play to get a feel of how the combo worked. To my ears both combos sounded as good as the best DDs I've heard :) may-be a touch more musical at the expense of a little low end!

Implementation & then personal choice with TT for me!

What I did realise is that my old Systemdek isn't too off the pace even today & I'll need to get the plinth right on my DP-6000 for it to comprehensively beat my old original Systemdek.

bigmoog
28-06-2010, 13:09
it may seem I have bias and axes to grind, not so....

this is my experience with the voyd and the valdi

I bought a Voyd in 1990 from the long gone Audio South in Farnham, with split phase PSU and ran it with firstly a Kuzma stogi and then a Zeta which easily is/was a better arm.....the kuzma was a zeta clone after all;)..cartridges used over a three ear period were a decca, nagaoka mp11, koetsu red, goldring and an ortofon.......I also got a second hand valdi which I used with the Kuzma...

1. The decca did not work well, as the lateral wobble/instability of the suspension generated by the torque of the motors induced terrible bass wibbleness and mistracking. More mainstream cartridges fared better of course.

2. On both the Voyd and Valdi, I found I spent more time setting the suspension and fiddling with the belt than listening to music.

3. The springiness of the suspension coupled with the two/ three motors, light acrylic platter and resonant plinth and top plate induced a 'sparkle' and 'artifice' to the music, that eventually felt I could hear over the music...and then I hated it...

4. Once I had the base board removed and carefully watched the motion of the motors/belt/platter while a record was played and one could see the classic left right 'yaw' inherent to some degree in all suspended decks.....think about it.....mass suspended by springs...coupled to a motor pulling a rubber band.....no wonder!!

5. the voyds were good sounding when set right, but really IMHO, the suspension was undermined by having multiple high torque motors and was the product of faddy thinking.......

6. At least they weren't Linn;)

6.5: I made it may business to hear the voyds in other systems with AudioNote/Helius/Snell etc and the results were similiar to my ears

7. When I acquired my Notts Mentor, I began to enjoy music again




I wont tell my tales of Linn LP12's or we may find me going POTTY:mental:

pure sound
28-06-2010, 13:22
Something was very badly wrong with your deck if it either needed continual adjustment or was lurching around at all.

bigmoog
28-06-2010, 13:36
Something was very badly wrong with your deck if it either needed continual adjustment or was lurching around at all.


no, both decks...the Voyd and the Valdi did the same and its very slight but slight it was...audible especially with the decca...., I demonstrated these effects to various people including Mario (now at AudioNote) of Audio South...his answer to me was 'try a townsend rock' and other hifi mates who either heard the flaw or loved the sound the voyd produced...all suspended decks suffer from the left right yaw to some degree and the resonant signature of the springs and top plate colours the sound ime - my stethoscope proves it!. Please remember I am referring to the worst case as sometimes they performed very very well over many years.

My experience of 30 years on and off use of suspended decks has taught me that they are inadequate for long term use and I find the concept 'silly'

but these days I am open to purchasing a new, modern suspended deck If it plays my records to my satisfaction and is properly designed. :)


maybe Im a fussy imbecile as my current thread drive high mass deck has flaws as well

Hypnotoad
28-06-2010, 23:33
Every turntable has it's own sonic signature, I just read a review by Michael Fremmer of a $20,000.00 DD turntable and he said it got rid of a lot of problems associated with belt drives but introduced a few new ones.

Another thing to consider is that certain sonic characteristics suit certain systems and listening environments.

We talked on here a while back how your typical "listening" room in Britain is completely different to your typical "listening" room here in the states.

Different sizes, different construction, different sonic characteristics.

That's why planar speakers are highly regarded here but not there was the consensus.

So isn't it possible that the sound some types of turntables put out is suited more to certain types of listening environments?

Barry
28-06-2010, 23:49
Every turntable has it's own sonic signature, I just read a review by Michael Fremmer of a $20,000.00 DD turntable and he said it got rid of a lot of problems associated with belt drives but introduced a few new ones.

Another thing to consider is that certain sonic characteristics suit certain systems and listening environments.

We talked on here a while back how your typical "listening" room in Britain is completely different to your typical "listening" room here in the states.

Different sizes, different construction, different sonic characteristics.

That's why planar speakers are highly regarded here but not there was the consensus.

So isn't it possible that the sound some types of turntables put out is suited more to certain types of listening environments?

I think all types of turntable drive mechanisms (i.e. idler, rim drive, belt, DD) have their pros and cons. Just as with speakers, you need to choose which one does those things well that are important to you.

Must confess, whereas I understand that, say, planar dipole speakers work well in American rooms, I hadn't thought about the effect of the room on the turntable. Interesting......

Regards

DSJR
29-06-2010, 07:21
no, both decks...the Voyd and the Valdi did the same and its very slight but slight it was...audible especially with the decca...., I demonstrated these effects to various people including Mario (now at AudioNote) of Audio South...his answer to me was 'try a townsend rock' and other hifi mates who either heard the flaw or loved the sound the voyd produced...all suspended decks suffer from the left right yaw to some degree and the resonant signature of the springs and top plate colours the sound ime - my stethoscope proves it!. Please remember I am referring to the worst case as sometimes they performed very very well over many years.

My experience of 30 years on and off use of suspended decks has taught me that they are inadequate for long term use and I find the concept 'silly'

but these days I am open to purchasing a new, modern suspended deck If it plays my records to my satisfaction and is properly designed. :)


maybe Im a fussy imbecile as my current thread drive high mass deck has flaws as well

The big difference Jon is that you and I have had experience of the delights of a top grade NAS turntable, which when Decca'd, comes about as close to what's really there on the vinyl (as against what the listener *wants*). I'm not suggesting the Mentor was perfect (I understand the Dias takes the concept even further) but the low torque/high intertia idea really works well I think and belt-drive-wow is non existant on these. Buying an NAS deck is a bit like buying active ATC's or similar - everything is done for you and there's little room to play around IMO.

A mate had a Valdi for some years and it always sounded ok to me in his AI/Snell system

Mike
29-06-2010, 12:24
P.S I'm just about finished the review of my experiences at Dave Anderton's place when hearing his quite superb L-07D in comparison with my Techie, so look out for that on Monday.

I wonder which "Monday" he meant, exactly? :hmm:


:rolleyes:

DSJR
29-06-2010, 13:32
I told ya, he's heard a Rega 2 and "seen the light!" :D

Of course, if the L-07D wipes his Techie, it'll all be changed when the bigger Paul Hynes supply comes along :D

Ooooh, I'm a sod and a half. Sincere apologies Marco, I couldn't resist it. It's the waiting you see :lolsign:

Mike
29-06-2010, 14:30
Nothing wrong with a bit of mockery, Dave. If he's going to put the ball on the tee then someone's bound to knock the bugger down the fairway! :lol:

Anyway, I bet if you cut Marco in half the word "Technics" goes all the way through him. Just like a stick 'o rock! ;)

Barry
29-06-2010, 14:39
Nothing wrong with a bit of mockery, Dave. If he's going to put the ball on the tee then someone's bound to knock the bugger down the fairway! :lol:

Anyway, I bet if you cut Marco in half the word "Technics" goes all the way through him. Just like a stick 'o rock! ;)

Either that or "Tannoy"!

Regards

Batty
30-06-2010, 04:40
I have never heard a techie and was wondering if anyone has compared one to a Rock with RB250 tonearm. If so how did both go?

Joe
30-06-2010, 14:58
Either that or "Tannoy"!

Regards

Or 'pish catchers'!

DSJR
30-06-2010, 17:42
I have never heard a techie and was wondering if anyone has compared one to a Rock with RB250 tonearm. If so how did both go?

If you have a Rock and it's working and in good nick, I wouldn't change it, put it that way...

See if you can get an Excalibur tonearm for it and a good working Decca. The deck was "voiced" or "non voiced," if you see what I mean, with Decca's in mind and the results used to be stunningly good.

P.S. the Rock had no wavery pitch difficulties as I remember and we sold these as well as the LP12 and Mantra, which did..

The Grand Wazoo
30-06-2010, 17:47
I'd agree with Dave, keep the turntable but ditch the arm - you ought to be able to get more out of the Rock than the Rega's offering you. One of the best sounds I ever heard was in a system with a Decca on a Rock/Excalibur.

John
30-06-2010, 19:01
Sorry not read the thread for awhile
The Decca is the best cart I heard I be really interested to hear you view on the Decca when you can
So far the best drive system I heard is using a DC rim drive I just love the way harmonics I think its great that people are really beginning to understand how to get the best out of Direct drives and Idler drives as for which is the best method I have no idea they are both capable of producing great music With Idler drives its about dealing with all that torque with DD it seems to be about getting the power supply as clean and constant as you can
I think the new Paul Hynes PSU should make another improvement and you also have the platter and plinth to improve as well
I been reading Arthur blog with the reference Lenco which he considers to be the best TT he heard. Also Vic from Trans Fi has been developing the DC rim drive on his Salvation I yet to the latest modifications so hard to imagine how its improved
For me I think with regards to TT we in exciting times and we now have the knowledge of buying either a Direct Drive TT or Idlier Drive and with a bit of know how taking them to extremes no one could of imagined
As for which drive system is best I have no idea and think we still think both systems have more to come

DSJR
30-06-2010, 21:17
Exciting times for vinyl certainly. But do be aware that the vinyl lovers drooling over these concoctions is probably a few dozen at most in the UK and maybe a few thousand worldwide. I expect these rim-drive thingmies will cost a small fortune as well and the quality of the motor as regards stability and vibration will be paramount.

By the way, I'm sure I read somewhere in discussion of the 301 and 401 that platter mass and motor torque were matched together in the original design. I think it was on PFM.

John
30-06-2010, 21:25
Not so Dave The Salvation with arm costs under 2000 This will always be in small numbers but if China get in on the act who knows

Clive
30-06-2010, 21:27
Exciting times for vinyl certainly. But do be aware that the vinyl lovers drooling over these concoctions is probably a few dozen at most in the UK and maybe a few thousand worldwide. I expect these rim-drive thingmies will cost a small fortune as well and the quality of the motor as regards stability and vibration will be paramount.

By the way, I'm sure I read somewhere in discussion of the 301 and 401 that platter mass and motor torque were matched together in the original design. I think it was on PFM.
Whilst not cheap, don't expect it to be really expensive either.

http://www.trans-fi.com/Salvation/TransFi1.jpg

DSJR
30-06-2010, 21:29
I still think 2000 for a turntable is a huge amount of money - I'm not doubting the performance potential on iota by the way. I remain to be convinced that decks at this price level just don't sell in quantity (Perhaps the Walrus guys would say opposite as they're one of the few dealers in the UK selling a *range* of assorted decks over a grand).

Good luck to these guys, anyway.

P.S. That pic above - the platter looks very like another I've seen recently. I wonder how much it weighs?

John
30-06-2010, 21:34
The above TT is not designed for high sales

Clive
30-06-2010, 21:35
It won't sell in huge numbers, no deck will, enough though to keep Vic busy! The platter has been around for a few months, indeed I've had one for a couple of months. It weighs 9kg. I've been fortunate to be a beta tester.

The aluminum platter may end up being an option. A great option I must add.

2k for deck AND arm is pretty good but of course nothing like a 300 entry level deck.

DSJR
30-06-2010, 21:42
How much will that platter cost (cheeky question) and can it be adapted to a Techie????

Clive
30-06-2010, 21:46
How much will that platter cost (cheeky question) and can it be adapted to a Techie????
I don't know what the platter will cost but from what I know I expect it to be less than "the other one" but to be fair it's not designed for a DD which probably requires some extra features. Machining something this size (you'll notice it's > 12 inches....I tell that to all the girls) is quite a specialised job. I don't believe there's the intent to develop it for the Techie.

Batty
30-06-2010, 22:29
I'd agree with Dave, keep the turntable but ditch the arm - you ought to be able to get more out of the Rock than the Rega's offering you. One of the best sounds I ever heard was in a system with a Decca on a Rock/Excalibur.


I wasn't thinking of replacing the Rock, the arm has been rewired and foam filled by Audio Origami just this year, bearings are good as new. i was mainly interested in sonic differences between the rock and a techie, my son is of an age where he is getting into sounds (14), and maybe a technics TT would be a good start for him. He prefers the vinyl sound to CD, but still has an iPod glued in his ear. I think the Decca carts are a bit out of my price range at the moment, I nearly choked on the price of a new 1042, but the Denon DL-110 at $100 second hand fitted the bill.

DSJR
01-07-2010, 06:47
Support British brands and buy a Rega P3...

I was being tongue-in-cheek about the platter Clive ;) The deck looks good and I have a set of Vic's wires and tags ready to go on my next bodge-up - er - project... :lol:

Marco
01-07-2010, 08:03
Whilst not cheap, don't expect it to be really expensive either.

http://www.trans-fi.com/Salvation/TransFi1.jpg

That's quality in every way, Clive! :respect:

We'll need to arrange a sesh sometime. That's another deck I'd like to test my Techie against :)

Marco.

Clive
01-07-2010, 08:36
That's quality in every way, Clive! :respect:

We'll need to arrange a sesh sometime. That's another deck I'd like to test my Techie against :)

Marco.
Yes Marco, once the deck finally hits the streets, which should be soon, we should do this.

There have been a lot of details to optimise, Vic has been really diligent in getting the details right. It's been interesting acting as beta tester, the interplay of seemingly small tweaks, sometimes negative / sometimes positive, has been fascinating and it brings home the number of hours of development required to bring a product to market. I believe record decks are particularly tricky as they are such a balancing act that has to keep all components working in equilibrium.

Along the way Vic developed the new wand for his arm too (seen here flying in formation).
http://www.trans-fi.com/Air-Bearing%20Tonearm/TomaHawk/TomFinal1.jpg

Marco
01-07-2010, 08:50
Nice one. I'll look forward to that - just give me a shout :)


I believe record decks are particularly tricky as they are such a balancing act that has to keep all components working in equilibrium.


How true is that - I agree 110%!

There are such a multitude of mechanical interfaces in existence with the design of record decks, therefore the cumulative effect of how they interact with each other, and whether that effect is mechanically and sonically optimal, is of paramount importance.

In other words, it's all about synergy!

Marco.

Beobloke
01-07-2010, 11:50
That's quality in every way, Clive! :respect:

We'll need to arrange a sesh sometime. That's another deck I'd like to test my Techie against :)
Marco.

Yeah, and I bet the resulting write-up of that will never see the light of day either...........;)

Clive
01-07-2010, 12:02
Yeah, and I bet the resulting write-up of that will never see the light of day either...........;)
Maybe, that's probably up to Marco....if I get the chance I will do a review for enjoythemusic but of course with full disclosure about my being a beta tester. My main comparison would be with my cherished 301. BTW, going totally off-topic, as I mention enjoythemusic....see http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0710/mark_grant_g1000hd.htm for a Mark Grant cable review.

Marco
01-07-2010, 13:43
Yeah, and I bet the resulting write-up of that will never see the light of day either...........;)

Lol - it's coming, it's coming... It's just that I've had other things to deal with which were more of a priority. When I do these types of reviews, I do it properly, and thoroughly, so it's not just something I can knock up quickly. Also, it's not only a review of the Techie vs. the Kenwood and Nakamichi T/Ts, but also Dave's system itself and the various cartridges we used.

Besides, John (music room mod) knows the outcome, but he is sworn to secrecy :eyebrows:

When the review is posted, it'll be worth reading - I promise!

Marco.

John
01-07-2010, 18:14
Yes sworn to seceracy with the outcome of a 25 year curse if I break it!!
My lips are sealed

Joe
01-07-2010, 18:52
Yes sworn to seceracy with the outcome of a 25 year curse if I break it!!

It'll be 25 years before the review's posted!

Marco
01-07-2010, 19:24
And you'll still be here irking the purists! :lol:

Marco.

Joe
01-07-2010, 19:33
And you'll still be here irking the purists! :lol:

Marco.

It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it!