Records weights for SL 1210

[Ants]

Is there an optimal weight for a record clamp for a SL1210 (using a standard platter +/- SDS isoplatmat)?

Does anyone have experience with the High density graphite (HDG) carbon record weights? - what effect do they have on sound quality?

Is a record weight actually necessary/ beneficial on a SL1210 (using a standard platter)????

[Tarzan]

Is there an optimal weight for a record clamp for a SL1210 (using a standard platter +/- SDS isoplatmat)?

Does anyone have experience with the High density graphite (HDG) carbon record weights? - what effect do they have on sound quality?

Is a record weight actually necessary/ beneficial on a SL1210 (using a standard platter)????

No experience with those weights however the Michell Clamp works brilliantly on the Techie with standard platter.

[jandl100]

Is there an optimal weight for a record clamp for a SL1210 (using a standard platter +/- SDS isoplatmat)?

Does anyone have experience with the High density graphite (HDG) carbon record weights? - what effect do they have on sound quality?

Is a record weight actually necessary/ beneficial on a SL1210 (using a standard platter)????

Quite a few years ago I did a record weight 'shoot out' on (I think!) a Technics direct drive - I can't recall which one now, it might have been a standard 1210 :scratch: I suspect it was, but I can't be sure. Either a 1210 or a 1700, I think.

I suspect Technics DDs may all respond similarly.

Here they are ...

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/LPclamp2.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/LPclamp2.jpg.html)

My general finding was the more weight / pressure the better. The sound simply got more solid and real as the force went up.
The exception was the little rubber puck (aka The Pig from the small Brit firm Revolver), but that could take a lot of downward force and hang on tightly to the spindle. That is my 'record weight' of choice now.
I have to confess that the Michell clamp was the worse sounding to my ears ... but Andy / Tarzan and I have found before that we have different audio preferences. :)

[jandl100]

Ah, right ... found another pic from the shootout

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/LPclamp1.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/LPclamp1.jpg.html)

A 1210 for sure :) ... and a rather tasty Dynavector 17Dsomething.

[Ants]

Jerry,
thanks for your reply....
I've tried the Michell (very light), Kridon-image (Ebay) and the Sota reflex clamp (it grasps the spindle then applies a slight downward pressure on the record, used in conjunction with a thin rubber ring under the record, which supposedly allows the peripheral edge of the record to be pushed down flatter)....
they certainly make a bit of difference - the Michell i liked least. The heavier (Kridon-image) one is about 350gm gives bigger but more warm, diffuse sound, the Sota although lighter in weight, seems to give a more defined sound with darker background.... and seems add a bit more control/ definition to bass (not as prominent bass as the Kridon-image however)and seems to enhance the soundstage depth a bit......I use the Sota the most.....
I think its reducing transmitted noise from the spindle by dampening it - a bit like the Pig I think.

I personally can't see how record weights would work other than trying to flatten the record - but then you'd expect more 'dishing' effect with the outer edges forced up and the warps exacerbated if used with a record mat with a centre depression for the label......might be slight effect maybe but still present.....
Maybe they reduce transmitted noise just from their weight/ mass effect, so greater mass leads to greater reduction in noise. But there might be a limit to what the techie can take and the record weight may also cause an negative effect on sound quality if present in excess?
Dunno...... I'm just guessing.

I do know the Kridon-image does sound different from the Sota reflex clamp in use....so it might be just about finding the change which suits our preferences most.

[jandl100]

I agree, significant sonic changes are to be had.
As to why ... :scratch: ...
Adding mass, damping parts of it - you're changing the resonant signature of the whole platter, I should think, and not necessarily by a little. And to a lesser extent the whole turntable structure.
Or something like that.
Maybe. :)

[Tarzan]

Jerry,
thanks for your reply....
I've tried the Michell (very light), Kridon-image (Ebay) and the Sota reflex clamp (it grasps the spindle then applies a slight downward pressure on the record, used in conjunction with a thin rubber ring under the record, which supposedly allows the peripheral edge of the record to be pushed down flatter)....
they certainly make a bit of difference - the Michell i liked least. The heavier (Kridon-image) one is about 350gm gives bigger but more warm, diffuse sound, the Sota although lighter in weight, seems to give a more defined sound with darker background.... and seems add a bit more control/ definition to bass (not as prominent bass as the Kridon-image however)and seems to enhance the soundstage depth a bit......I use the Sota the most.....
I think its reducing transmitted noise from the spindle by dampening it - a bit like the Pig I think.

I personally can't see how record weights would work other than trying to flatten the record - but then you'd expect more 'dishing' effect with the outer edges forced up and the warps exacerbated if used with a record mat with a centre depression for the label......might be slight effect maybe but still present.....
Maybe they reduce transmitted noise just from their weight/ mass effect, so greater mass leads to greater reduction in noise. But there might be a limit to what the techie can take and the record weight may also cause an negative effect on sound quality if present in excess?
Dunno...... I'm just guessing.

I do know the Kridon-image does sound different from the Sota reflex clamp in use....so it might be just about finding the change which suits our preferences most.

I will get me coat then.:lol::door:

[Andrei]

I personally can't see how record weights would work other than trying to flatten the record - but then you'd expect more 'dishing' effect with the outer edges forced up
The Michel clamp is designed to do exactly the opposite - and it works. I would have thought that a record weight - having weight! - would add to the friction on the thrust pad of the bearing, and thereby be a bad thing. However my experience is that both a regular record weight and a Michel clamp offer a bit of solidity to the presentation. I am presently using the Michel. One of the side benefits of the Michel clamp is that it enables you to apply a bit more pressure with a velvet brush prior to playing.

PS Where in Godzone are you?

[CageyH]

As Andrei says, be careful adding too much weight if you have a standard bearing. It will chew through the thrust pad quicker, so make sure that it is oiled up.

[jandl100]

As Andrei says, be careful adding too much weight if you have a standard bearing. It will chew through the thrust pad quicker, so make sure that it is oiled up.

Yep, that is why I was very happy when the Pig turned out to be a fine sounding option - some of the weights I was trying were crazy heavy! :mental:

[jandl100]

I will get me coat then.:lol::door:

Come back, Andy! - you are no longer on your own in Michell clamp heaven. :lol:

[Ants]

Andy,

I value your input. I just noticed your turntable system is designed be used with the Michell clamp - so I'd expect it to be synergistic.
The mitchell didn't seem to do much for me but I'm sure these tweaks affect sound and its very personal about whether they are beneficial or not. Its likely my system is very different from your's , so it will have a different set of compromises to ameliorate. My mate used the Michell with the Techie I have until he sold it to me ..... he loved the Michell clamp. He runs a all solid state system as opposed to my all tube system. The sound he got from the same turntable was different from how it sounded in mine (different cartridge, cables, amps and speakers and importantly different room acoustics).
So just goes to show...so many variables - difficult to say how its gonna go with any change.
For example, the highly regarded Funk achromat (with the SDS isoplatmat I still use) was very underwelming in my setup ...... sucked out the bass and air/ soundstage......the worst change I've made in my system. Restored things when I went back to the thick rubber mat I had originally.....
..... you'd never expect those effects when you consider the posts I read n the forum....

Oh well.... I guess these tweaks are , "try it and see" in nature.....

Anthony

[Spectral Morn]

In my direct experience the bruil Weight is one of the best on the Technics http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html

[Ants]

Andy,

if memory serves me right, the mitchell clamp you have is a screw down type onto a threaded spindle ? So its like a reflex clamp in essence. Its purposely made light for the type of turntable you have.....so its probably optimised for your turntable.
On a techie, its different. No suspension.......
I'm sure suspended deck couldn't handle some of the weights that people use (500-1kg or more) on their non suspended turntables like techies and Idlers......

Anthony

[jandl100]

For example, the highly regarded Funk achromat (with the SDS isoplatmat I still use) was very underwelming in my setup ...... sucked out the bass and air/ soundstage......the worst change I've made in my system. Restored things when I went back to the thick rubber mat I had originally.....
..... you'd never expect those effects when you consider the posts I read n the forum....


The thing here, I suspect, is that the standard Techie platter is very 'ringy' - take it off and flick it ... tingggggggg . It's resonant as hell. So a nice heavy floppy rubber mat damps that quite nicely. The solid Achromat and SDS mats don't address that aspect much and platter resonance has a major impact on the sonics, ime.
I use a very heavy floppy Dumpa rubber mat on my Technics SL150ii having tried various solid mats with less success. :thumbsup:

[Ants]

Jerry, I think so.
The SDS isoplatmat and the thick rubber mat seems to be a bit better than just the thick rubber maybe.....especially when I use the Sota clamp. The extra height means the standard arm with KAB damper is up about as high as I can adjust...... the Sota clamp has only just enough spindle to clamp effectively...
The achromat might be looking for a new home......or go another turntable I have....

Anthony

[Ants]

Neil, so 350- 375gm might be the sweet spot for record weights for the techie?
Anyone used heavier ones???? I've never been brave enough as I have standard bearing.....

Anthony

[Spectral Morn]

Get yourself an Oyaide BR one rubber under mat. It works very well under metal mats, including Oyaides own metal one. The Oyaide weight is the best match for their mat, but the Bruil the best overall with other mat options and I have tried quiet a few todate, including the Michell.

[Ants]

The Oyaide BR-12 looks a bit like the old Sony 'lunar' record mat with the round dots/ recesses in the mat....though the Oyaide has them arranged to look very nice and distinctive
My rubber matt has a central depression which gradually gets less towards the edges to support the record especially if used with the Sota clamp or a record weight - so its like the Oyaide (not sure if its 1% slope though) but not as nice looking nor made with the same type of rubber compound.....maybe one to try then.....

The SDS isoplatmat on its own seems to dampen the stock platter - adding the rubber may added a bit more mass/ flywheel effect to the whole platter arrangement....

Anthony

[Ants]

Oh just realised the Oyaide BR-one is only 1 mm thick......

the BR-12 is the full mat......

doh....


Anthony

[walpurgis]

If ever there was an area for 'foo', record weights or clamps are one of the worst offenders. There are some costing many thousands of pounds. Lunacy! Too much mass/weight is pointless and potentially damaging. All that is needed is enough weight to hold the centre of the record down and flat in contact with the mat.

[Ants]

Geoff, hence my trepidation for trying more uber expensive ones.......
I think small changes may occur from here on in for me - would the Oyaide Br-12 be better than what I've got? maybe , maybe not but the difference isn't going to be much I'm sure. The Br-one over my SDS isoplatmat - again, not much I suspect as the platter is now pretty damped........although I am tempted by the thought of the HDG carbon mat......

What did they say about the cat and curiosity.........?

Geoff, What do you use on your Techie?

Anthony

[walpurgis]

Geoff, What do you use on your Techie?

Anthony

I don't have a Techie. I use one of these, with my own record puck on it!

http://i65.tinypic.com/11sjxix.jpg

[Spectral Morn]

Oh just realised the Oyaide BR-one is only 1 mm thick......

the BR-12 is the full mat......

doh....


Anthony

Indeed.

I found that the metal mat sitting on the platter on its own while very good, really came into its own with the BR One undermat. Adding that made the overall sound more organic and musical, without, the sound was a little cool.

[Ants]

..... you have eclectic tastes like me....I've tried hard to not get any more kit, let alone more LP's.
although there are some nice denon, luxman (PD 441, 444 or 131) , kenwood (KD 990) and technics (e.g. SL150 mk2, SL10 or SL7) turntables.....and various phono stages and SUT's I'd like to try one day (e.g. Luxman AD8000/ 8020 or 8025 SUT module). Its really not a cheap hobby......

Anthony

[Ants]

Neil, Geoff,

Maybe i need to try the BR-1 below the SDS +/- one above it. That would make it about 3.2- 4.2mm total thickness (depending on if I put one on top as well) .... about normal record mat thickness rather than current set up....

mmmm..... decisions, decisions.....


Anthony

[walpurgis]

SUT's I'd like to try one day (e.g. Luxman AD8000/ 8020 or 8025 SUT module). Its really not a cheap hobby......

Anthony

Got one of those.

Not as exclusive as my Osawa OS-100T though. :)

[Spectral Morn]

Geoff, hence my trepidation for trying more uber expensive ones.......
I think small changes may occur from here on in for me - would the Oyaide Br-12 be better than what I've got? maybe , maybe not but the difference isn't going to be much I'm sure. The Br-one over my SDS isoplatmat - again, not much I suspect as the platter is now pretty damped........although I am tempted by the thought of the HDG carbon mat......

What did they say about the cat and curiosity.........?

Geoff, What do you use on your Techie?

Anthony

Not over, under it. Its an undermat. Damps resonances in the metal to metal contact between a metal mat and the platter.

[Ants]

Geoff, the Osawa OS-100T looks very retro and cool...... rare as hens teeth you say! Even more cool then.
Hope it sounds as good as its reputation.....

Anthony

[Ants]

Neil, OK yup thanks..... got it,

Anthony