Philips GP390 Ceramic cartridge NOS 1970s

[Audioflyer]

This is a interesting Ceramic cartridge that I was told about from one of my old school teachers.

Curiosity got the better of me and so I brought a NOS 1970's Philips GP390 Ceramic Cartridge for £37.50.

Very little information on the web but what I can find was this was the pinnacle of ceramic phone cartridges.

I've added a few photos.

http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae188/msdin45/Philips%20GP390/Philips%20GP390%2001.jpg

http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae188/msdin45/Philips%20GP390/Philips%20GP390%2002.jpg

http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae188/msdin45/Philips%20GP390/Philips%20GP390%2003.jpg

Well how does it sound!

Well it sound very good fast and detail this is not what I‘ve been lead to believe about Ceramic cartridges

Sound wise it very neutral detailed and dynamic with no sibilance like a good MC.
I especial like the absence of record surface noise, vocal are so natural and drum kits sound just right.

Bass is a little lean but what is there is very clean and focused,
Hopfully the bass will be sorted with a modified MM phonostage that I have planned.

It track like a mountain goat and I could not hear any mistracking at 1.7g

A bit about the cartridge technical spec:

It has a none removable stylus that’s bonded to the body it also is a has a low output that suitable to feed a MM phonostage.

Type: Philips GP-390 HIFI Cartridge
Concept: Ceramic
Capacitance: 1.2 nF
Impedance: 1.5 K Ohm, DC
Load: 47K Ohm
Sensitivity (1 kHz): 1mV/cm/s 5cm/sec: 5mV
Output: 8 mV
Frequency range: 20Hz to 20 KHz
Channel separation: 20 dB
Channel balance: within 2 dB
Compliance: 12*10-6 cm dyne
VTF: 1.5 to 3.0 g
Cantilever: Aluminium tube
Stylus: Spherical diamond, bonded, 0.6 mil (15 µm)
Vertical tracking angle: 15º
Moving mass: 1.4 mg
Net weight: 5g

I had an issue with hum but may have found the problem.
This is to to with my arm wiring as it is unshielded and design to work with a balances phonostage.

It’s hard to believe this is a ceramic cartridge.

Sharif

[Firebottle]

Well that's a new one to me a low output ceramic. Thanks for posting the details Sharif :)

[Barry]

Ceramic cartridges require different equalisation to that used with electro-dynamic types. This is because the output from a piezoelectric cartridge depends on the transverse amplitude of the groove excursion, whereas with electro-dynamic cartridges, the output depends on the transverse velocity of the groove excursion. That is, you cannot use the usual RIAA equalisation with ceramic cartridges. What preamp are you using?

[Audioflyer]

I've read some where that you could use a 'capacitor resistor T network' to form the characteristics of a MM cartridge thus would then work into a standard MM phonostage.

I would like to find out a bit more about this cartridge but the there is so little on the internet.

These are the bits of details I've found on the internet and it was design to work in to a standard MM phonostage.

The GP390 seem to be fitted with a some form of EQ/actuator network.
Not sure what components are in it but probing around on the track side of the small pcb with a multimeter confirms that there is some sort of a resistor network.
It would be interesting to see what's inside but I can't get it apart without damaging it as the stylus assembly is bonded to the body.

Snippets that I have found point to a very advance ceramic material of the time develop by Philips and use today in high quality ceramic capacitor.

If the information is right, I've seen some claim that this ceramic material has a freedom from distortion and a frequency extends between sub sonic to ultrasonic with perfect regularity (high frequency quotes 100Khz to 1Mhz).

The cartridge resonance frequency of stylus is about 15.5Khz much the same as a lot of modern MM cartridge. I think if the cantilever moving mass was reduce and a nude elliptical tip was fitted this would elevate resonance frequency out of the audio band.

Sharif.

[Barry]

Hi Sharif,

I did occur to me that Philips might have fitted a suitable compensation network to the cartridge, so it can be used with a preamplifier offering RIAA equalisation.

If they had not, I'm sure you would have noticed it as the frequency response would be far from flat.

Good review by the way - we always like to hear of vintage audio components that have slipped 'under the radar'.

Regards
Barry

[Audioflyer]

The further evolution of the ceramic cartridge by Micro-Acoustics.

http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/micropg.htm

It look like they had taken a copy of the Philips GP390 (made from 1967-1968) and lower the moving mass of the stylus to remove the resonance frequency out of the audio band.

The cutaway view of the 2003e model is probable what the Philips GP390 looks like inside with the exception of the eq circuit board which is on the back with the contact pins.

Sharif.

[jandl100]

As mentioned elsewhere, based on the superb sound Sharif was extracting from his system at the Scalford show last Sunday I have invested in one of these cartridges.

Ouch, it's bright for the first half hour! :eek:

But settling down now and both the detail retrieval and precision of the lateral stereo imaging is excellent indeed!

This is going to be interesting ...

[narabdela]

As mentioned elsewhere, based on the superb sound Sharif was extracting from his system at the Scalford show last Sunday I have invested in one of these cartridges.

Ouch, it's bright for the first half hour! :eek:

But settling down now and both the detail retrieval and precision of the lateral stereo imaging is excellent indeed!

This is going to be interesting ...

Please keep us posted. This cartridge in Sharif's system was one of the show highlights for me.

[Audioflyer]

As mentioned elsewhere, based on the superb sound Sharif was extracting from his system at the Scalford show last Sunday I have invested in one of these cartridges.

Ouch, it's bright for the first half hour! :eek:

But settling down now and both the detail retrieval and precision of the lateral stereo imaging is excellent indeed!

This is going to be interesting ...

Hi Jerry.

Yes my was bright when I bought it and need about 10-20 hour to settle down. This may just be down to the elasticated element that hold the ceramic component loosening up.

After about 30 hours it should sound neutral with the bass end opens up and with some of the best detail and dynamic's I've heard form any cartridge that I've listen to in the passed.

Just another thing start the tracking at 1.7g and increase it by 0.1g and have a listen each time, I settled for a tracking weight of 2.1g.

Sharif.

[jandl100]

Thanks for the advice, Sharif.
It's at 1.7g at the moment, I've only just now seen your tracking weight comment - I guess you edited it in after a while?.

A couple more hours on it now, and as per your expectation it's still rather forward/bright, although nowhere near as fierce as it was to start with - so I've swapped for now from my 'wide open' Audiolab 8000PPA 'stage to the rather more 'comfortable' sounding phonostage in my vintage Marantz receiver* - which also has the advantage of tone controls! - so a little tweak down on the treble is welcome at the moment. :)

No complaints - a lovely open, detailed and well focused sound. Not at all what I would have expected from a ceramic cartridge! I'm happily listening to LPs now with it, I'll let it run in for a week or 2 before making any critical judgements.

* Marco may recall hearing the Marantz's phonostage on his visit here a year or so ago - it was my in-use 'stage at the time, and very nice it is, too.

[Marco]

Yes, and very nice it was, too :)

Regarding the GP390, that's one long, heavy (and stiff) cantilever on there... Don't think I've ever seen anything like that before, which I suspect will be significantly influencing the sound, especially in terms of the lengthy run-in time, as the suspension will take a while to 'loosen up' and become more compliant.

In terms of the current bright sound, Jerry, have you tried adding some mass to the headshell? I've got a feeling that these ceramics will like a big of mass, in the way of a DL-103, and I suspect that if you try that, perhaps by fitting the cartridge into a heavier headshell, it will tame the treble a bit...

Just a thought! :cool:

Marco.

[jandl100]

OK - thanks for the tips, Marco.
I'll have a play around with adding a bit of mass to the headshell.

[Marco]

Cool - let us know how you get on...

To save disturbing things too much, maybe try blu-tacking a 2p coin to the top of the headshell, just to see what happens, and if the result is favourable, keep adding more mass until the sound becomes 'thick and heavy', then back it off until the sound clicks into place, in terms of openness and bass weight. Then when you've arrived at the right amount of mass, measure it on some scales and then fit the cartridge to a headshell of the same mass (this obviously presumes the use of a detachable headshell arm).

Another thing, what are you guys tracking the cartridge at? The quoted range is rather wide to say the least (1.5-3g). If it were me, I'd be using it at the top of that range, say 2.5g, and taking it from there. I suspect that this cartridge will prefer a higher VTF, to a lower one.

Therefore, in summary, up the headshell mass and raise VTF, and see what happens! :cool:

Marco.

[jandl100]

Yes, the old 2p + blu-tac on the headshell trick. That's what I was going to do. :)

Sharif did mention tracking weight ...



Just another thing start the tracking at 1.7g and increase it by 0.1g and have a listen each time, I settled for a tracking weight of 2.1g.

Sharif.

I'm currently at 1.7g, which was Sharif's original reccie, I think.
But I shall certainly experiment.

[Marco]

With VTF, Jerry, I always start near the top of the recommended range and work down, especially with carts fitted with a spherical stylus (such as the Philips), which are designed to take high VTFs, and usually respond well to them. With a nice fat tip like that, tracking at, say, 3g, you don't have to worry so much about record wear.

So don't be afraid of going high! You may find that something around the 2-5-2.7g mark is spot on :)

Marco.

[Audioflyer]

Hi Jerry

My thorens TP90 arm mass is 17.5g, and the cartridge headshell is parallel to the record surface.

The info I've found on a india electronics/audio web sites put out by Phillips is to set the tracking weight between 1.7 -2.5g

Sharif.

[Marco]

Have you tried it at the higher end of the range, Sharif, at say 2.7g (it does say you can take it up to 3g)? :)

Interestingly, your Thorens arm (if that figure is correct) seems to be heading more towards the high-mass end of things.

Marco.

[jandl100]

My arm's effective mass is specced at 16g, but I am using a lightweight headshell at the moment.

I'll have a play around with added mass and VTF this evening.

For the moment, I've hoisted the VTF up to 2.5g.

[Marco]

Does it sound any better at 2.5g?

Marco.

[jandl100]

errr ... not sure.

A parcel arrived containing a new toy, Duncan's 300wpc Apart One amp.

NEW TOY :yay:

Will get back to the Philips ceramic business later :D

:oops:

[User211]

Yeah Jerry and I are playing with our Apart amps now - in synch - but at different venues.

[Audioflyer]

Later today I'll try the unused GP390 I have in a Rega RB300 on a Thorens TD160 Super and I'll let you know how it sound.

Then I'll try swapping them over between the Phonosophie and Thorens turntables, I should get some idea of the differences.

Sharif.

[Marco]

That'll be interesting, Sharif. Look forward to reading your observations :)

Marco.

[jandl100]

Right.
Immediate excitement over new amp is now over. Back to the ceramic Philips 390. :)

Increased VTF to 2,5g from 1.7g. Couldn't hear a difference.
Added headshell mass: 2p + blu-tac. Couldn't hear a difference.

ah well. No matter - will continue letting it run in.

I'm using my only spare headshell - a tatty, scrawny aged thing. Where have my spares gone? :scratch: Baffling. Maybe in my mid-Wales ranchette?
Anyway, hopefully a decent one I ordered 2 days ago will turn up today.
Getting a fair bit of hum. Not LOUD, but still noticeable. That's with both my Marantz and Audiolab 'stages.

Also needle talk is very loud!! Well loud for needle talk, not loud loud, if you know what I mean!
Can't hear it while music is playing at sensible level but very noticeable if the sound is off.

The sound quality?
It really is very good. Still a fair bit bright, but excellent detail and image focus. Loads of in-room you-are-there presence. Waaaay beyond its £37.50 price point. Definitely in the multi-£100 league.
Loads more listening as well as running in to do. I've focused so far on classical choons - but a couple of Yello LPs will get an airing today. :rock:

[Marco]

Right.
Immediate excitement over new amp is now over. Back to the ceramic Philips 390. :)

Increased VTF to 2,5g from 1.7g. Couldn't hear a difference.
Added headshell mass: 2p + blu-tac. Couldn't hear a difference.


Oh well, worth a try! :doh: :lol:

Still, that is *most* unusual... Can you think of any other cartridge you've used, which you've done that to, and there hasn't been a difference? I can't.

A 'tracking force and mass-agnostic' cartridge? :hmm: Weird, man... Anyway, it sounds good and is a Billy Bargain, so all is well :thumbsup:

Marco.

[Audioflyer]

I now remember how I settled on 2.1g it was to track a hot cut drum & bass record.

Last night I tried tracking at different VTF from 1.7 - 2.5g and the sound did not change.

There is a small tilt in the bass of about -1.5db @ 50Hz above 500Hz the GP390 has a flat response up to the tip resonance of 15.5kHz it then rises to about +1db to 20kHz.

Jerry I could send you a passive adaptor to correct the -1.5db bass loss this will bring a more balance sound, this is what I use to correct the bass drop.

It plug’s in between your phonostage and your preamp as I don’t think you will be able to compensate for it using a tone control.

Sharif.

[jandl100]

I now remember how I settled on 2.1g it was to track a hot cut drum & bass record.

Last night I tried tracking at different VTF from 1.7 - 2.5g and the sound did not change.

There is a small tilt in the bass of about -1.5db @ 50Hz above 500Hz the GP390 has a flat response up to the tip resonance of 15.5kHz it then rises to about +1db to 20kHz.

Jerry I could send you a passive adaptor to correct the -1.5db bass loss this will bring a more balance sound, this is what I use to correct the bass drop.

It plug’s in between your phonostage and your preamp as I don’t think you will be able to compensate for it using a tone control.

Sharif.

Ah - so I am not going deaf, Sharif, you agree that the sound really does not change with VTF! Phew. :)

Thank you for the offer of the bass loss adaptor - I shall PM you my address!

[Ali Tait]

Sharif, what is this adaptor please, do you have a link?

[User211]

Ah - so I am not going deaf, Sharif, you agree that the sound really does not change with VTF! Phew. :)

Thank you for the offer of the bass loss adaptor - I shall PM you my address!
I'm with Marco - 2p piece some blu tak and no change in sound? Baffles me.

That sort of thing will quite radically alter resonance. Strange indeed.

[Audioflyer]

Sharif, what is this adaptor please, do you have a link?

It's a home made adaptor the only penalty is a small insertion loss, I've attached the circuit here.

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv175/audioflyer/High%20Octane%20Riaa%20Preamp/ScreenShot028.bmp.jpeg

Sharif.

[Ali Tait]

Ok thanks.

[Audioflyer]

Jerry I had a problem with the Thorens TP90 arm with hum using the GP390.

It turn out to be the earthing between the shaft and bearing in the arm pillar, it was reading about 12 ohms my only conclusion was there must be some corrosion between the different metals. The only way to solve it was to adding a wire between the bearing shaft and the pillar.

Just a thorough with no music playing and the volume turn up, does it still hum when you place your hand near the tonearm?

Sharif.

[jandl100]

Jerry I had a problem with the Thorens TP90 arm with hum using the GP390.

It turn out to be the earthing between the shaft and bearing in the arm pillar, it was reading about 12 ohms my only conclusion was there must be some corrosion between the different metals. The only way to solve it was to adding a wire between the bearing shaft and the pillar.

Just a thorough with no music playing and the volume turn up, does it still hum when you place your hand near the tonearm?

Sharif.

Thanks Sharif

I've plugged the output of my phonostage into a Behringer DEQ2496 so I can see what is going on with the hum.

Main hum output is tightly centred at 50Hz - so mains earthing of some sort, I guess.
But there are also hum/buzz components 300-500Hz or so and some broader band lower level buzz in the region of 1-2KHz.

The hum increases when the cartridge is over the platter - whether the turntable is powered up or not. Magnetic effects from the direct drive motor?

But the main issue is the 50Hz hum - and a notch filter on the Behringer gets rid of that without noticeable effect on the music. The other noise is almost always not discernible when music is playing.

[jandl100]

thought I'd try the direct attachment doohickey rather than use photobucket ...

Coo, it worked. :eek:

[Marco]

Have you only got one screw holding that cartridge in? :eek:

Marco.

[jandl100]

And there was me thinking you wouldn't notice. :lol:

Damn vinyl setup/spares box is 80 miles away. I was lucky to have 1 screw that fitted. :D

[spendorman]

I have no experience of the Philips ceramic cartridge, but at the risk of being of being repetitive, I love the Philips GP range of magnetic cartridges. Hardly anyone mentions them.

[struth]

thought I'd try the direct attachment doohickey rather than use photobucket ...

Coo, it worked. :eek:

Disgracelfully lazy... Dislike attachments ;)

http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16539&d=1459079142

[User211]

Even the head of the bolt doesn't look tightened - it is way above the headshell.:lol:

Sorry Jerry, but...:)

[jandl100]

I have no experience of the Philips ceramic cartridge, but at the risk of being of being repetitive, I love the Philips GP range of magnetic cartridges. Hardly anyone mentions them.

There's an interesting looking Philips moving coil cart on t'Bay at the moment ...

Not set up right, though - 2 bolts is for wusses. :eyebrows:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTEwM1gxNjAw/z/CEYAAOSwe7BW0rsx/$_57.JPG

[jandl100]

Even the head of the bolt doesn't look tightened - it is way above the headshell.:lol:

Sorry Jerry, but...:)

;)

1 bolt and not tightened? No way that would stay on! :lol:

Tight as a tight thing, mate. :thumbsup:

[User211]

It just doesn't look that way but will take your word for it.

[spendorman]

At the risk of sticking my oar in, probably not a good idea to have one screw (or bolt), even though tight, holding the cartridge. Small risk of distorting the cartridge body. Best, in my view, not to tighten cartridge screws too much. I think, though not sure, that I've seen mention of that in cartridge instructions.

[Marco]

Yup, I'd go along with that, Alex. It's certainly going to sound better with two screws properly fitted, whenever that happens! ;)

Marco.

[jandl100]

Yep, next time it is played t'will be with stereophonic bolts. ;)

I'm not expecting the sound to change, tbh. But as Alex says, symmetric mechanical load on the cart body will be safer.

[Marco]

Do yourself a favour, mono screw-boy, and get yourself a set of these (from our very own Paul Stewart) - IMO, the best cartridge mounting kit bar none:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191703783858?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

They use 'specially selected' non-magnetic stainless steel, which I've found (quite surprisingly) improves sound quality! :cool:

Marco.

[spendorman]

This is taxing my failing memory, but didn’t SME supply aluminium and / or nylon screws. Also I seem to remember thin nylon washers to go under the screw heads so as to stop the headshell paint being damaged.

[spendorman]

Do yourself a favour, mono screw-boy, and get yourself a set of these (from our very own Paul Stewart) - IMO, the best cartridge mounting kit bar none:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191703783858?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

They use 'specially selected' non-magnetic stainless steel, which I've found (quite surprisingly) improves sound quality! :cool:

Marco.

Diamagnetic? unless I got my physics wrong, quite possible as it was about 1965 I did physics

[jandl100]

Damn - can't find my box'o'bits for cartridge shenanigans. :scratch:
So I need a new set of nuts & bolts anyway -- ordered! :)
Will play with them at the weekend.

[Audioflyer]

Later today I'll try the unused GP390 I have in a Rega RB300 on a Thorens TD160 Super and I'll let you know how it sound.

Then I'll try swapping them over between the Phonosophie and Thorens turntables, I should get some idea of the differences.

Sharif.


That'll be interesting, Sharif. Look forward to reading your observations :)

Marco.


I've been try to get the Rega RB300 tonearm and the GP390 to work.
So far I've try using a 1g shim with a penny on top of the headshell but still the counter weight hang to far back.

Did Rega make a heavier counter weight? The one I have is about 35mm dia 12mm thick and look like it made from stainless steel.

Even with a Ortofon 2M Blue it right at the back of the stub.

I'm using the counter weight to set up the VTA not the spring dial VTF adjuster.

Sharif.

[jandl100]

Can you not Blu-tac a coin or two to the end of the end-stub on the c/wt shaft, Sharif?

[jandl100]

Stereo bolts :D

Errr -- it does sound a little better focused. :scratch:
I must be imagining it. :lol:

[struth]

you will be telling me cables make a difference next Jerry:eek:

[User211]

For extra cred, you should have said it sounded "tighter".:D

[Ali Tait]

Just got one of these, looking forward to trying it.

[jandl100]

Just got one of these, looking forward to trying it.

:popcorn:

Ah, I see Musonic have restocked - gone up a bit but still stupidly good for £45 :eek:

[Ali Tait]

Aye, thought it was worth a punt.

[jandl100]

Listening to quite a few LPs last night.
Sounded very fine indeed. It just plays the music in a musical and involving way.

I suppose I could buy a special import Mashimoto Ongonoto mk3 moving coil cartridge with special hyperparabolic stylus profile and molybdenum carbonate cantilever for £2.3k* - but to be honest the Philips ceramic at £40 odd is just fine thanks. :D

* Yeah, I just made that up. :lol:

Sharif is very kindly sending me his bass boost thingy, so that will be interesting.
And there is still some 50Hz hum which I am having to filter out. :scratch:
And I am sure it is still running in.

But it does the job nicely, thanks, not really missing my MC cart at all.

[Ali Tait]

Good thing about an active system - I can just turn the bass up a bit..

[Marco]

Stereo bolts :D

Errr -- it does sound a little better focused. :scratch:
I must be imagining it. :lol:

Telt yer ;)

It's to do with improving mechanical integrity, or summat....

Marco.

[Audioflyer]

Listening to quite a few LPs last night.
Sounded very fine indeed. It just plays the music in a musical and involving way.

I suppose I could buy a special import Mashimoto Ongonoto mk3 moving coil cartridge with special hyperparabolic stylus profile and molybdenum carbonate cantilever for £2.3k* - but to be honest the Philips ceramic at £40 odd is just fine thanks. :D

* Yeah, I just made that up. :lol:

Sharif is very kindly sending me his bass boost thingy, so that will be interesting.
And there is still some 50Hz hum which I am having to filter out. :scratch:
And I am sure it is still running in.

But it does the job nicely, thanks, not really missing my MC cart at all.

Little bass boost thingy is in the post.

The 50Hz hum problem I've just been having over the last week with the Thorens TD160 Super was down to a missing earth wire.

Sharif.

[Audioflyer]

Inside the EQ box.

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv175/audioflyer/High%20Octane%20Riaa%20Preamp/ScreenShot028.bmp.jpeg

This little box was built after listening and measuring the frequency response of the GP390.
Other cartridges were used for reference to confirm the GP390 response.

The box is set for 1dB correction as I found 1.5dB could make some warm and cuddly bass heavy recordings sound bloated.

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv175/audioflyer/Philips%20GP390%20Ceramic%20Stereo%20Cartridge/GP390%20Bass%201.5db%20EQ%2001.jpg

The GP390 has a small roll-off starting at 500Hz and is 1.5 dB down at 50Hz.

I've used it from my phonostage output to a aux input on my preamp, it should also work if inserted into a tape monitor loop.

Sharif.

[jandl100]

Many thanks , Sharif. I shall report back on it once it has arrived. :thumbsup:

Yes, the 50Hz hum is a puzzler. My setup is hum-free with the other cartridges I have used.
It will be interesting to hear how Ali gets on with his.

Luckily, I am no purist, and I often have my LP system feed through my Behringer DEQ2496 to sort out balance, stereo width and tonal issues associated with some LPs - wot a nawty boy I am. :spank: :eyebrows:
-- so inserting a notch-like filter at 50Hz is very easy and works fine.
Would be nice to sort it properly, though.

[jandl100]

Just arrived.
The little filter box courtesy of Sharif. :thumbsup:
I'll try it out later today.

[Audioflyer]

Comparison of a Thorens TD160 Super & Phonosophie No3 turntable with a Philips GP390 ceramic cartridge.

I initially set up my Thorens TD160 super turntable and Rega RB300 with a Ortofon 2M blue cartridge.

Finally I managed to sit down and have a good listen to the sound of Ortofon 2M blue cartridge, my first impressions of the set-up what was very good. I quickly had a good listen through a good selection of music it wasn't for me the ultimate in sound reproduction. After listening for about 5 to 6 hours I felt the Ortofon 2M blue was a bit lacking in refinement and tend to make everything sound very compressed, I also felt it didn't produce a very wide soundstage. It reminded me of listening to it very cheap CD player I found the bass to be congested and the treble to be bright with very little dynamics. It gave the impression on first listening that it was very detailed this wasn't to be the case. I think if you were new to or hadn't listen to vinyl for a long time you would have been quite impressed.

Thorens TD 160 super turntable fitted with my second Philips GP390 cartridge.
Prior to me listening to the second cartridge I ran it in for about 20 hours and it seems to settle down quicker than my first GP390 treble was not as bright.

After listening to the Ortofon 2M blue this old cartridge was a revelation I didn't expect it to sound as good as it did, on a whole the sound was more refined and better balanced I found that drums and bass guitar were clearly separated with a nice dynamic detailed sound. I found as a whole instrument tones and timbers were better preserved with a great insight to the music, vocals had superb realism to the sound, there was a sense of easy even when the music became very fast flowing this setup didn't become congested like when it was set up with the Ortofon 2M blue cartridge.
As I used to use a Thorens TD 160 Super many years ago it was interesting to see how it sounded today I found ultimately it was lacking in macro dynamics, detail and stereo image.

After listening to the Philips GP390 cartridge on the Thorens TD 160 Super I felt the cartridge was screaming out or a better turntable.

So this now brings me onto my normal turntable which is a Phonosophie No.3 with Thorens TP90 tonearm.

Up to the about four months ago I was using a Linn Arkiv B moving coil cartridge which I felt to be very good.

When I first got the Philips GP390 cartridge I fitted it to the Phonosophie my first word was bloody hell it's good very good.
I couldn't believe I was listening to a £37.50 cartridge that blow the Arkiv B out the water it was like a veil had been removed off the music the whole system just come alive it's like you could walk into the room and pick the instruments off the players. I have never before heard any cartridge with the life like qualities this cartridge delivers everything fell into place.

Compared to the Thorens TD160 Super the whole sound just opened up it was quite haunted there was a sense of realism to the whole sound everything just sounded right. This £37.50 ceramic cartridge will reveal everything that's going on within the record it doesn't emphasize anything it just plays everything as it should be. For something with a conical stylus detailed and dynamic are superb on music transients and decays, dynamic timber and tone they are all so naturally portrayed, none of my other cartridges I've owned come close.

There are a few things with the GP390 it needs about 30 hours to settle down (think what it would be like if you hadn't moved since 1968!).The only other issue with the GP390 is the bass needs a slight correction below 500 Hz other than that I cannot fault it.

If I had heard a cartridge for £2,000 -£3000 with the same qualities I would have been bowled but for something that's £37.50 is unbelievable.

This is really is the finest cartridge I ever heard.

Sorry for going on I hope it doesn't sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet but this is a really good cartridge.

Sharif.

[Audioflyer]

Just arrived.
The little filter box courtesy of Sharif. :thumbsup:
I'll try it out later today.

Can't wait to see how you get on with it.
You need to fit it between you phono stage and your amp, It should also work in a tape monitor loop.

Sharif.

[struth]

Good stuff ..... Sounds like your on to a winner then... Not heard a ceramic cart for eons.... Wasnt overly impressed then but perhaps your understandi!g and compensations have brought the best out of it

[Audioflyer]

Good stuff ..... Sounds like your on to a winner then... Not heard a ceramic cart for eons.... Wasnt overly impressed then but perhaps your understandi!g and compensations have brought the best out of it

Hi Grant thank you it a shame you are so far away you would be welcomed to come and have a listen.

Sharif.

[jmrecchia]

Hello Sharif.

How are you? I hope fine!

Very interesting this review about Philips GP390 cartridge! Yesterday I installed a NOS Philips GP380, that has that same specifications of GP390 but built on P-mount body.
I’m very impressed about the GP380, it’s very, very detailed even installed on a simple and automatic table like my Philips GA160. I think that this fun table but I know that it has many mechanical limitations but, I don’t know the magic that the GP380 does, it sounds very very good!
The only issue is the Bass is a little lean. I read your post about the EQ Box Bass Boost and I’m very interested on this box.
I do not have much skill with electronics, but I will try to build one, if you can help me with a doubt, I will be very grateful.
To have a good result as you mentioned, which brand of components should I buy to try build the circuit?
Many thanks per your attention.

17923

Best regards from Brazil.

Flavio.




Inside the EQ box.

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv175/audioflyer/High%20Octane%20Riaa%20Preamp/ScreenShot028.bmp.jpeg

This little box was built after listening and measuring the frequency response of the GP390.
Other cartridges were used for reference to confirm the GP390 response.

The box is set for 1dB correction as I found 1.5dB could make some warm and cuddly bass heavy recordings sound bloated.

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv175/audioflyer/Philips%20GP390%20Ceramic%20Stereo%20Cartridge/GP390%20Bass%201.5db%20EQ%2001.jpg

The GP390 has a small roll-off starting at 500Hz and is 1.5 dB down at 50Hz.

I've used it from my phonostage output to a aux input on my preamp, it should also work if inserted into a tape monitor loop.

Sharif.

[spendorman]

From memory,a ceramic cartridge, input on an amplifier needs to have a very high impedance, otherwise bass is curtailed.

Just had a quick search found this:

http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless-world-magazine/Wireless-World-1971/Ceramic%20Pickup%20Equalisation.pdf

[Audioflyer]

Hello Sharif.

How are you? I hope fine!

Very interesting this review about Philips GP390 cartridge! Yesterday I installed a NOS Philips GP380, that has that same specifications of GP390 but built on P-mount body.
I’m very impressed about the GP380, it’s very, very detailed even installed on a simple and automatic table like my Philips GA160. I think that this fun table but I know that it has many mechanical limitations but, I don’t know the magic that the GP380 does, it sounds very very good!
The only issue is the Bass is a little lean. I read your post about the EQ Box Bass Boost and I’m very interested on this box.
I do not have much skill with electronics, but I will try to build one, if you can help me with a doubt, I will be very grateful.
To have a good result as you mentioned, which brand of components should I buy to try build the circuit?
Many thanks per your attention.

17923

Best regards from Brazil.

Flavio.

C1 33nF Polypropylene capacitor
C2 C3 1.0uF Polypropylene capacitor

All the resistor are 0.25 watt 1% metal film or smd 1206 or 0603 thin film series.

I hope that helps.

Sharif.

[Audioflyer]

From memory,a ceramic cartridge, input on an amplifier needs to have a very high impedance, otherwise bass is curtailed.

Just had a quick search found this:

http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless-world-magazine/Wireless-World-1971/Ceramic%20Pickup%20Equalisation.pdf

It's not you standard ceramic cartridge it was design to be used with a MM riaa stage.

The information that I've found out about it, is that it has output of about 8mV across the ceramic elements.
This then feed a resistor network built into the cartridge to give an output of (1 kHz): 1mV/cm/s

I've seen the Wireless-World 1971 article, the adjust for the ceramic cartidge is done using the tone balance network on the preamp's input.

Sharif.

[jmrecchia]

Hello Sharif.

Many thanks per your attention! I will buy the components and try to build the EQ Box.

Best regards from Brazil.

Flavio
jmrecchia@gmail.com


C1 33nF Polypropylene capacitor
C2 C3 1.0uF Polypropylene capacitor

All the resistor are 0.25 watt 1% metal film or smd 1206 or 0603 thin film series.

I hope that helps.

Sharif.

[Duemaas]

I don't know if any of you have been looking at the stylus in a micriscope or a magnifying glass?
The stylus isn't a bonded stylus, but a nude diamond in gem stone quality.(It's also so big it could be used as gem stone.)
I could also read it in the brochure, that came with the NOS cartridge, I bought for £11.

Regards Jakob

[Duemaas]

Audioflyer, you said the stylus on Philips GP390 couldn't be changed.
According to the brochure it isn't true, the replacement stylus number is 4822 251 30009. I suppose
you have to carefully unscrew the on under the cantilever to change it.

Best regards Jakob.

[Mike2000]

The instructions for replacing the stylus are available on vinylengine https://www.vinylengine.com/library/philips/gp-233.shtml

Whilst listed under GP233, this is the same stylus used by the GP380 & GP390

[Audioflyer]

I manage to find a genuine replacement stylus for the GP390 which comes with a tool to hold the ceramic elements in place while you remove the stylus.

I've since spoken to ESCC about removing the stylus and their advice was not to try and remove it, as the ceramic elements are bonded to stylus and due to the age of the cartridge it would be easily damaged.

One of my current GP390 is with ESCC having a paratrace stylus fitted so I'm looking forward to hearing it hopefully it will be back by next week! :)

I'll be taking a GP390 with or without the paratrace stylus to the Scalford show and if you never heard how good a ceramic cartridge sounds you should come and have a listen.

Sharif.

[narabdela]

If you never heard how good a ceramic cartridge sounds come and have a listen.

Sharif.

I'd second that. Prepare to be amazed at how good this supposedly redundant technology sounds. :thumbsup:

[Mike2000]

One of my current GP390 is with ESCC having a paratrace stylus fitted so I'm looking forward to hearing it hopefully it will be back by next week! :)

I'll be taking a GP390 with or without the paratrace stylus to the Scalford show and if you never heard how good a ceramic cartridge sounds you should come and have a listen.

Sharif.
I hope you have the GP390 paratrace at Scalford - that is something I would like hear!

[Audioflyer]

My Philips GP 390 finally arrived back from 'Expert Stylus Cartridge Company' this is now the first ceramic cartridge which has a para-trace stylus fitted. :stalks:

I had hope to take this to Scalford Hall Wigwam show, I'm not sure what to expect but I do have high hopes for it. :D

Sharif.

[jandl100]

... this is now the first ceramic cartridge which has a para-trace stylus fitted. :stalks:



:lol: Brilliant.

A great cart in original form, I eagerly await your thoughts on its audiophile resurrection!

Results can be surprising and not always as you would wish with this sort of thing.

[Audioflyer]

Philips GP390 standard conical stylus vs GP390 fitted with a ESCC paratrace stylus

I've been using this ceramic cartridge for over two years it's never failed to impress me.

It has a very open sound with some of the best renditions of vocals and instruments and dynamics I‘ve every heard, even when the music got louder and more complex it remained um-flustered.

Listen to this cartridge in its standard form I felt the cartridge had more to offer so this year, I sent it off to the Expert Stylus Cartridge Company to have one of their paratrace stylus fitted.

Here is my findings I’ve played four tracks with the conical and the paratrace stylus to see how they sounded, so below is the differences of what I heard.

One of the first thing I noticed and what I didn't expect was there was about a 50% drop in the noise between tracks with a paratrace stylus. I've always been more than happy with the conical stylus performance regarding to vinyl noise.

The first album track I played was:-

“Give Me The Reason by Luther Vandross” last track on side two “Anyone Had a Heart”.

With the conical stylus there was the usual open realistic portrait of Luther's voice and every instrument could easily be heard but there was also a slight hardness to the sound and a flattening of dynamics, I had put this down to the recording.

Playing the same track again with the paratrace stylus the first thing I noticed that everything seems quieter so I turned up the volume to compensate but when he started singing you could clearly hear the power, passion and emotion that he put into his voice you could almost feel him breathing. The musicians behind this song play their instruments still had all the openness and texture of the conical stylus but this time the instruments took on a more refined quality. The fine detail, micro dynamics and tonal texture that will missing with the conical stylus with clear to hear, there was a sense that the musicians had gel together and become more relaxed with each other's playing.

The second album track I played was:-

"Tanz Von Heute from 1966 LetsKiss" first track side one.

I use this disc as a test discs as it is been nicely recorded, it has some very impressive transient and dynamics.

Again with the conical stylus the music was portrayed with a sense of ease and all the instruments heard had a natural tone. Its failing are with the hand claps and trumpets, the hand clap sound a bit wooden and the trumpet can sound overly brash.

Playing this track with the paratrace stylus taken this recording to another level the drumming sounds like a real sticks is hitting the skins, as the drum was struck you could hear the resonance in the skin that made them sound so natural. With the hand claps gonna was the wooden sound and it is and like having someone clapping in the room. The brassy hard metallic sound of the trumpet had gone and was replaced with a powerful dynamic sound with a lovely metal shimmer that sounded like the instrument was being played in front of you.

The third album track I played was:-

“Tracy Chapman LP Crossroads” the first track “Crossroads”

With the conical stylus there was a portrait of a realistic rendition of the song but with the paratrace stylus it was like a veil had been removed you could hear every bit of detail, breathing and expression within a her voice it became quite mesmerizing and haunting at the same time. The instrument again just seemed to be more natural and realistic.

The fourth and final album track I played was:-

“Watching The Stars by Doris Henderson with John Redburn” the second track “It's Been a Long Time”

This is a lovely simple piece of music just a vocalist and guitarist first of all it is been recorded very quietly and you can hear surface noise just creep in with the conical stylus. Doris voice again sound very open and the natural with with a lovely portrait of John Redburn guitar playing.

The surface noise that I heard with the conical stylus seems to just disappear with the paratrace stylus. Then when Doris starts to sing all I can say it is stunning just like it was being performing live and John's guitar player you can clearly hear every finger movement over the strings is just breathtaking.

A couple final notes about the two stylus profiles.

The conical stylus sounds louder with less fine detail and was missing some of the micro dynamics, also as the volume increase the sound became harder. Which until I heard the cartridge fitted with a paratrace stylus had not spoilt my listening enjoyment.

With the paratrace stylus it seemed to sounded quieter so I was turning the volume up to compensate to what I thought was the same level as the conical stylus, but it then it took me by surprise how effortless and dynamic the music had become.

Even now with the conical stylus it still sounds so good but with a with the paratrace stylus fitted it has been elevated to a new level of detail accuracy and tonal quality that I hadn't expected.

So that it a 1968 Philips GP390 low output ceramic cartridge with a modern paratrace stylus sounds stunningly good and probably the best £87 I've ever spent.

Sorry for rambling on but if there's any grammar or spelling mistakes I'm sorry I'm just got to get back to listening to the music!

Sharif.

[Marco]

Hi Sharif,

Thanks for sharing! Most interesting... I'm not surprised at all with your findings, as marrying the best of old and new, in my experience often pays dividends.

Just shows you how fundamentally good these 'old timers' were, in the areas that mattered most! Enjoy - oh, and don't forget, if you hear of any more of those Philips cartridges for sale, let me know.

Enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

[Audioflyer]

I've not quite work out how to upload a HD video to youtube this is my first attempt low res only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0nFzIA9r0Q

It's just a glimpse of what a Philips GP390 ceramic cartridge sounds like.

Thorens TD160 Super (modifed) - RB300 Tonearm (rewired) - Philips GP390 (low output) Ceramic Cartridge with a Paratrace stylus - High Octane RIAA Phonostage -Quad 22 Peamp & Quad II Amps (modified) - Restored JBL L40 Speakers.

Sharif.

[Arkless Electronics]

Dacca Deram anyone?

[narabdela]

Dacca Deram anyone?

I dabbled with a Deram forty odd years ago, but never got it sounding anywhere near as good as Sharif's Philips. I've heard his setup a couple of times at Scalford and it really is stunning.

Might be an interesting project though.

[Dave999]

I purchased 2 NOS Philips Super P GP390 for £15 each off a guy in Oval south London via the Shpoch app. he was concerned i was going to use them for scratching!!

I'd previously passed up, one for sale in france for £50+ on ebay, collection only

Purchase totally inspired by Audioflyer's review, which i found during a quest for a sonotone 9ta plug for a 4hf set up i'm restoring.

I have to say every word uttered is spot-on. It replaced a Goldring 1000 with the elliptical stylus in a rega 250, which i always thought was great
my deck is a 1965 401 and its all plugged into WAD pre/phono II and WAD KIT/KAT 6550

I also built the Bass booster circuit but it induces hum for some reason, either hard wired or on a board. Can't work out why. If i hold the plastic box it is mounted in, it decreases and if i connect myself to the ground of the phono connectors it disappears! odd. However i can do without, i'm not that fussed, due to the fact that its a small room and bass is not really too much of a problem.
Many of my records were "partied out" during my student days so i certainly notice an increase in crackles and pops with the conical stylus regardless of adjustments to arm, tracking weight VTA etc. So have taken the plunge and had a chat with TESC, who are now possibly shaking their heads and saying Oh-No, not another one.

I'm such a copy-cat, but i am so so pleased with the results that i couldn't help but post, to thank Audioflyer for discovering the best HI-FI bargain. I have played in orchestras and bands in my time, i like to think i know what a snare drum struck 5 foot away sounds like, i can now remind myself daily without the purchase of a drum kit. wow i'm having to re listen to everything. Even 80s house music takes on a new life, bass heavy flat and compressed no longer, and i haven't listened to any of this since, well, the 1980s.


Dave

[Patrick Dixon]

I also built the Bass booster circuit but it induces hum for some reason, either hard wired or on a board. Can't work out why. If i hold the plastic box it is mounted in, it decreases and if i connect myself to the ground of the phono connectors it disappears! odd.
It sounds like you are missing an earth somewhere.

[Dave999]

Yeah i'll try earthing to the earth stud on the back of the preamp. that will involve a bit of heavy lifting so have not yet got round to it.

[Dave999]

after my 2+ year adventure with a gp390 prompted by this thread i thought i'd try a gp400
have to say it shows some similarities, i have installed a Black diamond nudeline stylus made by analogis from www.MrStylus.com

i quite like it.... like a 390 with more bass,

slowly coming to the conclusion its the stylus 90% and the cartridge 10% that 10% in the GP390 is speed and clarity in the upper mids potentially due to its ceramic element . its magnetic cousin does a damn good job of trying to do the same but with added clout in the Bass

cartridge cost £17 off dutch ebay secondhand
stylus cost £36 from from mr stylus

i went with a mk1 Gp400 as they are the cheapest and its generally recognised that the internals are the same as the "better" cartridges in the range, it just limits you to stylus with the plastic carriers for Mk1 400 401 406 rather than the shibatta ish 412 and 422

Mk11 may be a better bet all stylli fit all bodies, potentially why the cost a few pounds more second hand

Bodies come in black gold and sliver grey, depends who you ask if that makes any difference. i suspect same generator in all, with subtle differences to stylus tip and cantilever as the design moved forward and at different price points

works well at 1.5 to2g VTF in a medium heavy Lab 80 arm and in my Td160 tp16. like a more refined Shure M44. i.e more output than many... but less robust, you can't run it a 3gin yer big disco rig..... and to my ears there is more refinement and detail than the shure, its a hi fi cartridge.

well worth a play for notta lotta cash

Dave

[Jimbo]

Interesting Post Dave, I heard one of those Philips Ceramic GP390 cartridges sometime back at a little get together and I was quite impressed at the SQ.

You have got me interested now in the GP400 as they are very cheap to pick up. I suspect it is just a case of finding a decent stylus but you have mentioned Mr Stylus so I will check this out.

Might sound good on my Lenco GL75?:)

[Dave999]

i think it probably will, i get the impression that Philips were pretty much at the top of there game at this time, but it looks like their product wasn't well received here in the UK... i guess we were preoccupied with exceedingly low mass arms and belt driven turntables, and those that were not had a Golding 800 or a shure 75. whilst much of Philips cartridge output was designed to get the best out of their funky looking record players.. i.e they just didn't fit for the fashions at the time.
So many for sale from GP400 right up to the 422 on various European sites indicates they were very popular in Holland Belgium and Germany 422 is a couple of hundred quid,

https://www.ebay.de/itm/PHILIPS-GP422-cartridge/284171196143?hash=item4229ec56ef:g:qX8AAOSwLQpgGp~ L

which i guess based on my purchase of a £20 400 is £180 quid for the stylus... i chose cheap, and an interesting, cheaper stylus and i like to think potentially got closer to 422 performance than what i would have had with a 400 and replacement conical, for not a lot less than i paid.

running mine on my main deck now 401 with origin live rega derived 250... i like it, needed the VTA tweaking but its works really quite well.

Dave