Paris

[Spectral Morn]

To all the French members of AoS, all those in Paris, the people of France in general. Words fail to express the horror at what is happening right now.

My prayers are with you all.

[Marco]

For those of us who haven't seen the news, could you explain? :)

Marco.

[struth]

France were playing germany tonight in a friendly I think in Paris. I think the US did an attack on Syria as well.. I wonder if there is any link. French security doesnt seem to be working very well.... not like them. These terrorists are going to cause there peoples a lot of grief

been shootings in paris.. possible hostage taking too

[Spectral Morn]

For those of us who haven't seen the news, could you explain? :)

Marco.

Major terrorist attack on going, football match attacked, a rock concert, a restaurant. Death toll stands at 60

[Oddball]

Barstewards

[Spectral Morn]

CNN reporting terrorists killing kids, one by one in the concert hall. I hope this isn't true.

[Marco]

Nightmare.... :(

Marco.

[struth]

There will be serious repercussions. this is what these folk don't care about of course, but alas it will happen. All very, very unnecessary but again they have decided to force issues they cannot win. Poor innocent folk die for their stupid egos

[walpurgis]

The terrorists originate from the 'migrant' population sector and yet the Welcome Mat is still at the borders.

No doubt we can expect something similar here.

As Grant says "there will be serious repercussions". I can't see European countries putting up with much more of this crap without there being serious retaliation from right wing groups. I have predicted before that we'd see escalation of trouble. It'll end up approaching a war situation.

[Spectral Morn]

CNN reporting French borders now closed, army to be mobilised, state of emergency declared and French government in its entirety to meet in an hour.

[struth]

The terrorists originate from the 'migrant' population sector and yet the Welcome Mat is still at the borders.

No doubt we can expect something similar here.

As Grant says "there will be serious repercussions". I can't see European countries putting up with much more of this crap without there being serious retaliation from right wing groups. I have predicted before that we'd see escalation of trouble. It'll end up approaching a war situation.

it is long overdue that that mat is whipped away. I do feel for the decent members of these culture of which there are many but there is enough proof that a fair amount of them , if not active, are at least sympathetic. Sadly religion is behind much of it, or at least used as the pummel.

[Andrei]

To all the French members of AoS, all those in Paris, the people of France in general. Words fail to express the horror at what is happening right now.

My prayers are with you all.

+1

[Spectral Morn]

I hope this isn't right, but the figure being stated on several News sources, that French police say that there are about 100 dead in side the concert hall :(

[mikmas]

140 dead of which 100 'executed' in the theatre before the Police could intervene and kill attackers.

pure horror

[Arkless Electronics]

I've always thought this will end in total war.... and this looks like the right time after this. May the bastards reap what they have sown. Deepest sympathies to the families, friends and France.

[The Black Adder]

It saddens me to read on Twitter that lots of Muslim people have a need to justify their faith, violence has nothing to do with the Muslim faith. It's opposes it in every which way. Whoever did this must be driven by a pure unadulterated hatred of human life. Something will happen after this, I'm absolutely sure of it.

If anyone lives in Paris or London especially, please be vigilant.

[RichB]

I've always thought this will end in total war.... and this looks like the right time after this. May the bastards reap what they have sown. Deepest sympathies to the families, friends and France.

I dare say you're right. These terrible events will be used to justify dropping bombs on people elsewhere. The only problem with that is it creates more insurgency and thus terrorism on your own soil.

How do you fight a war against an enemy who is already in your country without harming your own people?

[RichB]

Quote from my favourite author William Gibson in response to the events.

'the asymmetry, in asymmetrical warfare, is that the little guy can only damage the big guy by getting him angry enough to self harm'

[Firebottle]

Also how do you fight a war against against a foe who gives no value to life or freedom?

[archiesdad]

First thoughts are to those affected by these attacks,RIP, then we have to consider what happens next, for theses events to happen so quickly and coordinated after the drone strike against ISIS it shows that attackers are prepared at a moments notice to strike, do we now close down cities in this country too, watch over our shoulders in fear or carry on regardless Churchill style? I fear the world is changing, and not for the better, it does clearly show that open borders do not work, we must know who is in all our countries and have the power to act against potential threats.

[Oldpinkman]

First thoughts are to those affected by these attacks,RIP, then we have to consider what happens next, for theses events to happen so quickly and coordinated after the drone strike against ISIS it shows that attackers are prepared at a moments notice to strike, do we now close down cities in this country too, watch over our shoulders in fear or carry on regardless Churchill style? I fear the world is changing, and not for the better, it does clearly show that open borders do not work, we must know who is in all our countries and have the power to act against potential threats.

You are right that sympathy and support for those who are victims of this appalling violent thuggery is the first and most important thing. It is all to easy to jump to panicky and inappropriate conclusions. Whatever else it was - that was not a response to the US action to kill Jihady John. That was a coordinated and planned series of attacks. It took weeks of preparation, and therefore assuredly could not have been a knee-jerk response to the drone attack. It was also, very obviously, an attack on France, and not the USA, or even a soft US target in France.

[Oldpinkman]

How do you fight a war against an enemy who is already in your country without harming your own people?

Former CIA Deputy Director John McLaughlin is of the opinion that you have to make up your mind whether this is a war or not. Plainly you don't fight a war the way this situation is being handled (This situation = terrorist attacks by lslamic extremists organisations against the West). If you are at war, your objective must be to eliminate and destroy your enemy, or intimidate them to the point where they give in.

[Spectral Morn]

You are right that sympathy and support for those who are victims of this appalling violent thuggery is the first and most important thing. It is all to easy to jump to panicky and inappropriate conclusions. Whatever else it was - that was not a response to the US action to kill Jihady John. That was a coordinated and planned series of attacks. It took weeks of preparation, and therefore assuredly could not have been a knee-jerk response to the drone attack. It was also, very obviously, an attack on France, and not the USA, or even a soft US target in France.

They attacked a concert in which an American band were playing. I don't believe this was a random pick, but an attack on a symbol of American decadence and those who follow their music.

Make no mistake, anyone not of their mindset, their particular beliefs, is a target.

Je Suis Paris

[RobbieGong]

Just very sad and awful, the world is in a pretty bad state at the moment and in need of some serious healing :(

[Oldpinkman]

The terrorists originate from the 'migrant' population sector and yet the Welcome Mat is still at the borders.

No doubt we can expect something similar here.

As Grant says "there will be serious repercussions". I can't see European countries putting up with much more of this crap without there being serious retaliation from right wing groups. I have predicted before that we'd see escalation of trouble. It'll end up approaching a war situation.

It always rains when the pavements are wet.

Lets consider the migrant issue. Large numbers in transit from the area of current conflict to the West must present an opportunity to move terrorists, and an increased burden on the intelligence services. But the link from migration to terror outrage is not apparent, and blaming the terrorist outrages of islamic extremism on Islam, or Arabs, or Syrians, or refugees is like concluding wet pavements make it rain

The attack was against France - most of the recent migration by refugees has been to Germany and the Southern European Slav states. They were not attacked

We are only speculating, but the likely culprits will be French nationals. Yes, French nationals of Arab / Muslim origin, believing them to be followers of Islam (which the 95% of the Islamic world reject in horror). But French nationals who have joined Jihad, due to the influence of the web, the fact that France has the highest Islamic community in Europe (8%) and that islamic community has a significant section who are unemployed, disaffected, and open to influence. These will be home-grown boys. Shutting the borders will not make it stop raining.

The Syrian migrant inflow to France is trivial at about 100,000 to date. The area we have (nearly) moved to, in South West France, has a thick local accent which is very Hispanic. This extends from the eastern Pyrenees to the Dordogne region. 500,000 refugees from the Spanish Civil War fled to France, 236000 of them in a three day period following the reopening of the border on 27 February 1939. Most settled in the region. We will not solve the problems by repatriating those of Spanish origin, or restricting future movements of Spaniards

This is the 2nd shocking terrorist outrage in Paris recently. The Charlie Hebdo affair had nothing to do with Syrian refugees. Nor did the Madrid train bombing, which was the worst terrorist outrage in mainland Europe in recent times.

I find it reassuring when confronted with the wickedness of which man is capable, to be reminded that not all of mankind is wicked. In response to the horror and terror in Paris, the people of Paris have been offering beds and hospitality to the victims of the violence stranded there #PorteOuverte. and taxi drivers turned off their meters to give people free lifts home.

Our thoughts are with them.

[Oldpinkman]

They attacked a concert in which an American band were playing. I don't believe this was a random pick, but an attack on a symbol of American decadence and those who follow their music.

Make no mistake, anyone not of their mindset, their particular beliefs, is a target.

Je Suis Paris

You think they coordinated those attacks and included an American rock band by hopping on a plane yesterday afternoon in response to the US action to kill Jihady John? Well, maybe

[walpurgis]

Make no mistake, anyone not of their mindset, their particular beliefs, is a target.

Yes. Exactly!


This latest atrocity was on the cards. There will be more. My thoughts are 'what did you expect?'.

Many in Europe, here, America and likely elsewhere, will feel there is an enemy living amongst them. As I said before, there will undoubtedly be a backlash and people will retaliate. There will be attacks on Moslems and anything that represents them. This will alienate more of them, who will see themselves at war with the west and join the radicals, leading to trouble on a larger and expanding scale.

I would not like to be a Moslem in Europe. I see a return of an atmosphere similar to that in prewar Germany developing soon. No doubt Moslems will be the first to suffer, but I anticipate that eventually no minorities will be safe.

[Haselsh1]

I see that Monsieur Hollande has just announced this an act of war.

[Spectral Morn]

You think they coordinated those attacks and included an American rock band by hopping on a plane yesterday afternoon in response to the US action to kill Jihady John? Well, maybe

My thoughts, are that this was a cell, based in France, ready to go at the orders of their leaders. It is possible targets were pre thought out, and as concerts are scheduled ahead of time maybe they selected this one. I may be wrong, but in all honesty to say this was just an attack on France, the French, is blinkered thinking, and wrong. This was an attack on all of us.

[struth]

Agreed. Theses sleeping cells have various targets all checked out and plans made.. Dozens of them! This is how the work. IS is an abhorance on the planet. Peoples of the wirld will eventually have to take sides. I sincerely hope it doesnt end up a bloodbath but it could well happen....alas everyone will lose a lot of god given freedoms if it happens.
One thing for sure is you cannot have dialogue with such people as they are not interested in anything but THEIR WAY

[Oldpinkman]

Neil

This was an attack on ALL of us.
It WAS preplanned long in advance
It is extremely unlikely that it was a knee jerk response to the US action regarding its hellcat strike on Mohammed Emwazi. Like almost certainly definitely NOT.
It was almost certainly carried out by French nationals - albeit returning from jihadist activity in Syria
You do not need to smuggle in terrorist with refugees - you put them on a scheduled flight
You do not smuggle in weapons with refugees - they are all "processed" at immigration centres.

It is an outrage against humanity. It is a tragedy for those involved. Nobody will be helped by "simple" solutions along the lines that it always rains when the pavements are wet. This post I have cut from Facebook, echoes the statement in French of an aide worker at the Calais fires last night.

"If anyone you know tries to use last night's attacks as a reason to turn away migrants and asylum seekers, please just remind them that most asylum seekers are trying to escape precisely the sort of people who perpetrated the Paris attack. They're not bringing it with them, they're trying to escape it."

[webby]

"If anyone you know tries to use last night's attacks as a reason to turn away migrants and asylum seekers, please just remind them that most asylum seekers are trying to escape precisely the sort of people who perpetrated the Paris attack. They're not bringing it with them, they're trying to escape it."

Exactly; Most. Some will be IS extremists hiding in plain sight.

[walpurgis]

One thing for sure is you cannot have dialogue with such people as they are not interested in anything but THEIR WAY

You cannot assimilate and integrate people who have no intention of being part of 'normal' society. The perpetrators of this latest violence probably include some from second or third generation migrant settlers who's families have been in France for many years, but that does not stop them from wanting to separate themselves from any national identity.

There are 'enclaves' throughout Europe, some going so far as to have security at access points and refusing to allow westerners in.

Not that you'd want to, but you would be refused the right to buy property at such a location, even though that would be illegal. Such determined isolationism does not look good to outsiders.

[struth]

Such folk should be removed from the country.

[The Black Adder]

Watching the news this morning, a very interesting gentleman was talking about the terrorists which echo's something my farther said to me (A soldier). They don't see human life as we do. They 'want' to cause war, they 'want' the worlds nations to attack them.

[walpurgis]

They 'want' to cause war, they 'want' the worlds nations to attack them.

No doubt their wish will be granted. To the point of elimination perhaps. No lessons learnt from history obviously.

[Eisener Bart]

I am deeply concerned.

[struth]

There comes a time when turning the cheek has to stop. Gloves need to come off and the issue sorted once and for all. That time is approaching me thinks.
Once it starts it will alas resemble ww3. I dont envy the youth of today and tomorrow

[Haselsh1]

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[Firebottle]

..but for those that don't wish to live by the sword, what choice do they have?

[r100]

Contre nous la tyrannie ... I am ready to fight this senseless group of computer game trained, amphetamine loaded, brainwashed killers.

[walpurgis]

I see one of the terrorists killed had a Syrian passport with him. And we're still letting migrants into Europe. The majority may not have bad intentions, but I fail to see why any should be tolerated at this kind of cost. Just nuts!

If they want to leave Syria (or any other strife ridden place), let them go to India or Russia or China or Canada or Saudi Arabia or further south in Africa. I'm sure they'd be shown all appropriate hospitality.

[walpurgis]

In Argentina and other South American countries. Potential troublemakers just disappear.

[Oldpinkman]

I see one of the terrorists killed had a Syrian passport with him. And we're still letting migrants into Europe. The majority may not have bad intentions, but I fail to see why any should be tolerated at this kind of cost. Just nuts!

If they want to leave Syria (or any other strife ridden place), let them go to India or Russia or China or Canada or Saudi Arabia or further south in Africa. I'm sure they'd be shown all appropriate hospitality.

The fact that he had a Syrian passport means it is HIGHLY unlikely he was a migrant (refugee). He is much more likely to have been a "tourist" (for certain). Most of the terrorists will probably turn out to have French passports. Do we ban the French from France as a security precaution? Or just Araby looking French passport holders?

Edit: This isn't intended as some airy-fairy terrorist hugging apology. If someone with expert knowledge and experience like John McLaughlin were suggesting such things it would be different. Its about fixing the right problem. If as a FACT the terrorists committing these attrocities are NOT migrants, putting up the razor wire around the perimeter of Europe will do 3/8ths of 5/13ths of fuck all good. The bastards need stopping. That needs us to devote resources and intelligence to working out who the bastards are and actually stopping them. Not blaming people it suits us to blame.

Not because its lovely and cuddly to do so. Just because blaming the wrong guy fixes nothing. It just helps the angry and frustrated feel good.

[Spectral Morn]

Latest

The terrorist who was found with a Syrian passport, the Greek authorities confirm he came into Europe via them, a migrant/refugee.

For those genuine folks who are refugee's this is awful news. I wondered why he had a passport on him, there is the answer to create more fear, paranoia and hatred.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/14/paris-terror-attacks-attackers-dead-mass-killing-live-updates#block-564760d1e4b091c2edb6cc74

[Spectral Morn]

The fact that he had a Syrian passport means it is HIGHLY unlikely he was a migrant (refugee). He is much more likely to have been a "tourist" (for certain). Most of the terrorists will probably turn out to have French passports. Do we ban the French from France as a security precaution? Or just Araby looking French passport holders?

Wrong.

[mikmas]

Latest

The terrorist who was found with a Syrian passport, the Greek authorities confirm he came into Europe via them, a migrant/refugee.

For those genuine folks who are refugee's this is awful news. I wondered why he had a passport on him, there is the answer to create more fear, paranoia and hatred.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/14/paris-terror-attacks-attackers-dead-mass-killing-live-updates#block-564760d1e4b091c2edb6cc74

The last paragraph:
"While this heavily implies that one of the gunman came into Europe along with refugees, Syrian passports are known to be valuable currency amongst those trying to enter Europe, and it is not yet confirmed whether the holder of the passport is indeed the perpetrator."

[Spectral Morn]

The last paragraph:
"While this heavily implies that one of the gunman came into Europe along with refugees, Syrian passports are known to be valuable currency amongst those trying to enter Europe, and it is not yet confirmed whether the holder of the passport is indeed the perpetrator."

My gut feeling is it is, but next day or so will tell the tale. I say this because if it isn't, it lacks the impact that an actual verifiable refugee, coming into Europe would have. ISIS are very clever and very savvy re effective propaganda.

[Oldpinkman]

Wrong.

Really?

At least 1,430 of the just over 3,000 known European jihadists who have traveled to Syria and Iraq to fight on behalf of the Islamic State group are French, according to a report by the French Senate released on Wednesday. French intelligence services were monitoring another 1,570 French nationals suspected of having some level of involvement with Syrian networks, according to Agence France-Presse.

Around 200 of those who have traveled to Islamic State group-held territory have returned to France, a troubling figure for the French,

One terrorist has been confirmed as French national, one German.

And the article you link to seems less certain that the passport wasnt stolen

Just underneath it points out that 3 of the attackers were from Brussels. So do we ban all Belgians and one in 3 Syrian refugees?

[Spectral Morn]

Really?

At least 1,430 of the just over 3,000 known European jihadists who have traveled to Syria and Iraq to fight on behalf of the Islamic State group are French, according to a report by the French Senate released on Wednesday. French intelligence services were monitoring another 1,570 French nationals suspected of having some level of involvement with Syrian networks, according to Agence France-Presse.

Around 200 of those who have traveled to Islamic State group-held territory have returned to France, a troubling figure for the French,

One terrorist has been confirmed as French national, one German.

And the article you link to seems less certain that the passport wasnt stolen

Just underneath it points out that 3 of the attackers were from Brussels. So do we ban all Belgians and one in 3 Syrian refugees?

I see you edit your post tut tut. Would have been preferable to write a new post of clarification than edit the original.

Time will tell.

[walpurgis]

So do we ban all Belgians and one in 3 Syrian refugees?

Perhaps we should ban all those in Europe who refuse to be a part of it and work against it.

[Oldpinkman]

Just read an article in Le Figaro quoting eye-witnesses in the concert. The four gunmen were unmasked, and expert in their use of weapons. Of Arab , African, and European appearance but speaking unaccented fluent French.

It is right to be angry about the perpetrators of these attrocities, whilst not forgetting the suffering of their victims. But if our society is to properly combat the threat it needs to properly identify it. A razor-wire secured refugee-free Europe would not have stopped the 4 men at that concert. So we need to work out what would.

The Frenchman arrested at Gatwick with a gun today, is an example of the problem that won't be solved by wrongly linking terrorist attacks to refugee migration.

[walpurgis]

A razor-wire secured refugee-free Europe would not have stopped the 4 men at that concert.

Just shows how much has been got wrong in the past. They either shouldn't have been in France or shouldn't have even existed. Same applies to many here.

[struth]

President Hollande said France had been "attacked in a cowardly shameful and violent way".
"So France will be merciless in its response to the Islamic State militants," he said, vowing to "use all means within the law.. on every battleground here and abroad together with our allies".

Make of that what you will

[r100]

Funny coming from him .. He's the most uncharismatic president France has had in a long time. He was the most obnoxious party leader and clearly doesn't have what it takes to be the president of a nation.

[r100]

Use all means within the law

What a joke

[Ninanina]

My thoughts are with the French people at this terrible time and with the affected families and friends of the deceased :(

How we now fight against these evil enemies, which are probably living amongst us, I have no idea but I am quite sure we need to do something to try and stop this happening again

[webby]

Perhaps we should ban all those in Europe who refuse to be a part of it and work against it.

You know, back in the late 70's and 80's there was a hooligan element at all football matches. I'm guessing it was only 5 to 10% that actually caused trouble but if I remember correctly, all supporters were treated the same way; as if they were all hooligans. Fenced in like animals. Herded along the streets like cattle (no offence, cows).

[Arkless Electronics]

I'm afraid that the only way we can beat them is going to be total war. WW2 style D.Day ++ invasion and occupation of Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq etc by multinational forces. Merciless routing out of the enemy within will also be necessary, including the complete shutting down of enclaves where Westerners aren't welcome etc and the internment/deportation of everyone living in such areas, without a second thought being given to which nationality they are, what passport they hold, whether they own the property etc. IS of course knows that this would mean the deaths of thousands of Western troops and thousands of civilians and is no doubt bargaining on us not having the stomach for it.... Was the death toll from fighting Hitler worth it? Imagine if the Nazi's had won....

[Macca]

I don't think a WW2 military solution will work. The actual ISIS military presence is actually quite small and could be wip4rd out quite easily given the will, it is the terrorist cells that are the problem. The Nazis were unable to stop partisan activity in occupied Europe despite allocating 60 divisions to it and having no holds barred in terms of the reprisals they could implement.

What we have here is similar to the situation with the IRA. only more fanatical and more widespread. The solution with the IRA (until it was rumbled) was to step outside the law and implement a shoot to kill policy. Effectively tracking down and executing known terrorists without process or trial. Plausible deniability, no-one knows anything. I suspect that is the way the French will go.

[walpurgis]

Nobody seem to have considered that many of these terrorists and the families they are from (and I'm not just referring to those involved in the latest horror in Paris), are only in the UK and throughout Europe due to the mass migration that has been encouraged for the last 50+ years by the various governments of each country. Not out of humanitarian benevolence, but merely to appease industry's demands for cheap labour. This has two advantages from their point of view. A migrant workforce that works for peanuts and that indigenous folk have to compete against the low paid imported workers for jobs, also keeping pay nice and low.

Don't think these governments actually give a toss about the odd bit of terrorist bloodshed, because they don't. They wave their arms about and make bold and 'emotional' statements, whilst giving the corporate interests a wink behind your back, as if to say 'give this a few days and it'll be business as usual'. They regard the normal working bulk of society as scum to be exploited.

I've used the word 'governments', but that's not who actually runs things. It's the big multi-national money behind the scenes that does. Your government is just there to give you something to vote for and keep you thinking that you have some sort of say in how things are run. You don't!

[Macca]

Nobody seem to have considered that many of these terrorists and the families they are from (and I'm not just referring to those involved in the latest horror in Paris), are only in the UK and throughout Europe due to the mass migration that has been encouraged for the last 50+ years by the various governments of each country. Not out of humanitarian benevolence, but merely to appease industry's demands for cheap labour!

That was true in the 1950s and 1960s when there was full employment and a labour shortage, but the mass migration didn't start until the 1990s when there were 3 million unemployed and jobs being advertised at wages of one pound an hour. So whatever crazy reason they allowed it to happen it wasn't to keep wages down.

[Oldpinkman]

I think there are 2 issues - muddled a little by the term "war on terror" which I think started with 9/11

The terrorist activity in Paris (and elsewhere) is criminal and needs a law enforcement approach. Forget the claims to represent an ideology or nationality, it is criminal violence and needs a crime prevention approach. Robert Peels (Bobbies) original idea stands. The certainty of detection is more important than the severity of the punishment. This is especially true of people who will strap bombs to themselves, either as suicide bombs, or the "explosive vests" of the cinema killers. Threatening a bigger scarier death is just missing the point. Intelligence and detection are the keys. The French don't need to shoot to kill - they have no habeas corpus, and can lock up at will.

Where it gets really complicated is that in the case of this particular terrorist organisation, they have also effectively acquired a territory and nation status with their caliphate. I think this is what the former CIA director was referring to with regard to fighting a war. The latest terror incidents (don't forget the Russian jet) are responses to military action against the caliphate of Isis (or whichever of their names you choose this time). The military objective was (maybe) to stop the growth of an emerging Islamic state considered to be a sponsor of terrorism and threat to world peace. But lobbing the odd aimless bomb out of an aircraft while not really liking any of the enemies of your enemy you are sort of supporting is a not very bright way to fight a war. Calling it pissing in the wind is far too charitable. So there clearly would be the potential to address this particular war on terror (the war against the state of Isis) along the lines Jez suggests. There is an identifiable territorial battle to be fought.

Trouble is, what do you do when you have driven Isis out of its current territory? Who do you put in? Remember, this is mainly Iraq and Syria. In large part this results from a world policing approach by the US and its allies against unquestionably vile oiks Saddam Hussein and President Assad. Certainly, if you are going to have a war, do it properly and stop prodding the hornets nest as we are at present. But maybe don't have a war. Maybe control the expansion of Isis at national boundaries where you are happy to support existing regimes (Saudi, Turkey, Russia and others). And leave them to stew in there and starve them out. Against all expectations, that effectively appears to have succeeded against the Iran created by Khomeni.

It ain't going to be easy - the war, that is. But the control of criminal slaughter in Paris, London, Sharm el Sheik etc is a policing / intelligence issue. Not war.

[Macca]

ITrouble is, what do you do when you have driven Isis out of its current territory? Who do you put in? .

You put some military strong man who does not entertain any nutty religious ideas in power and let him get on with it, turning a blind to to his methods occasionally. That's what we used to do and it worked fine. Forget trying to put human rights and democracy into these places, the culture has no concept of these things because it is not based on reason. You can't try to mould the rest of the world into the UK or USA, it won't work.

[Oldpinkman]

You put some military strong man who does not entertain any nutty religious ideas in power and let him get on with it, turning a blind to to his methods occasionally. That's what we used to do and it worked fine. Forget trying to put human rights and democracy into these places, the culture has no concept of these things because it is not based on reason. You can't try to mould the rest of the world into the UK or USA, it won't work.

You mean, like Saddam Hussein? He fits the description, and kept the peace

[walpurgis]

You mean, like Saddam Hussein? He fits the description, and kept the peace

There's a lot of truth there. His regime in Iraq may have been brutal, but the economy worked and there was some sort of stability. Look at the state of it now!

Intervention there was not been about restoring order. It was about appeasing big business. People like Cheney and his mob (might as well call them 'mob' they are no better than gangsters).

[Arkless Electronics]

ISIS now controls huge swathes of territory and has made it clear it wants to take over the world (I've seen an interview with a top UK Muslim cleric who backs ISIS and he made it clear this was their avowed aim, even going so far as to say they would destroy the pyramids and sphinx etc "when we get to Egypt"). Whilst they control such territory they have a base to work from, to train and arm more terrorists, to store and maintain the tanks, rockets etc they seized in battle, to try and develop a dirty bomb or nerve gas..... Imagine what the IRA could have done to the mainland if there was no police or army in N.Ireland or S.Ireland and they were running the place....

[walpurgis]

ISIS now controls huge swathes of territory and has made it clear it wants to take over the world (I've seen an interview with a top UK Muslim cleric who backs ISIS and he made it clear this was their avowed aim, even going so far as to say they would destroy the pyramids and sphinx etc "when we get to Egypt"). Whilst they control such territory they have a base to work from, to train and arm more terrorists, to store and maintain the tanks, rockets etc they seized in battle, to try and develop a dirty bomb or nerve gas..... Imagine what the IRA could have done to the mainland if there was no police or army in N.Ireland or S.Ireland and they were running the place....

I have no doubt that they would deploy nuclear (not nucular like the yanks say) weapons at the first opportunity if they got their hands on something that worked. But then of course they would be legitimate targets for the same. A few strategically placed neutron weapons would likely be the end of them and would not leave a radioactive wasteland behind. Such a scenario is not beyond the realms of possibility.

[Audio Advent]

You mean, like Saddam Hussein? He fits the description, and kept the peace


Exactly. As much as the dictators have been guilty of crimes against humanity themselves, they prevented what we have now.

What changed that? Well, US's (and UK's?) ambitions to precisely create power vacuums so they could control whomever they gave new weapons to and therefore control and influence the region more directly. Even when the original uprisings were led by the people of the country in question, the resulting militarisation of those revolts have been fueled by the US e.g. Libya. But of course Saudi Arabia and friends have their own ambitions to control and hence have been supporting and providing arms to such as ISIS and affiliated groups.

Every time an external state gets involved in arming one side of a civil uprising it backfires! Here we are.

[Audio Advent]

Regarding home-grown terrorism and immigration, studies actually bothering to interview and talk to jihadies, reformed or otherwise, show that the base influences are environmental. The environments they live in are a matter of social policy by government, local authorities and society at large.

The poverty and social aspects which cause many immigrant families to live on poor estates, then seriously effect the 2nd generation as they grow up both with a world of crime around them, the conflicts between their young western estate culture and the culture of their parents from their home-land causes family problems, (resentment etc), violence on the estates gives rise to violent young adults, resentment grows between them and the rest of society who seemingly are able to get on with life whilst they remain downtrodden, substance abuse, sex abuse (in terms of abusing others), police and authorites of the country are out to get them and repress them at every turn....

.... and then some religious nut comes along to tell them that all their problems are caused by the devil that is western culture and that if they abide by the strict rules of their religion they will become clean and all their problems will go away, and they receive the social and emotion support they've never had before, a supporting community they've never had before. OF course with that help they do become clean, do stop the violence and so the seed is planted that indeed western culture is the devil's work.

This is the common thread seen again and again with re-habilitated, homegrown, young extremists.

And yes, the same can also happen with middle-class youth too as long as the basic constituents are there in terms of environment, family conflict and getting into trouble and racial profiling by authorities - anything to blame the outside world for that the real hate preachers can get their teeth into.

Sadly, many in society at large just like to say "it's not my problem" and would rather push their own prejudices about immigration in general.

[Audio Advent]

There was an interesting tweet by @wikileaks pointing to an ISIS article explaining the desire to turn western muslims against the west and the countries they live in by causing hatred and suspicion towards muslims in each land via the kinds of attacks seen in Paris. Afterall, the Russian plane bombing killed more and was more efficient but the use of home-grown terrorists in long drawn out events causes more hatred and suspicion but fewer casualties..


So don't become a puppet for ISIS by spreading your own hatred or anger, against muslims in general or immigrants. This is EXACTLY their plan to gain followers. vying for more indescriminate bombing also plays into that scenario.

Cutting off ISIS's finances is a much stronger idea whilst allowing local milllitias or armies to regain control of their own land from ISIS. That requires a re-focus and better international cooperation (which we might see since both the Russian airline bombing and the Paris attacks). And it should be noted that Corbyn's attitude toward ISIS is along similar lines whilst it should also reduce mass immigration as opposed to more bombing which will cause yet more.

[walpurgis]

all their problems are caused by the devil that is western culture

In that case, if it doesn't suit them they can leave! Good riddance!

[Ninanina]

In that case, if it doesn't suit them they can leave! Good riddance!

Remember.... "they enrich our lives" :rfl::rfl: :sofa:....

[mikmas]

Remember.... "they enrich our lives" :rfl::rfl: :sofa:....

Speaking personally, I'm quite partial to a bit of blues music and appreciate a good curry now and then ...

Also quite happy to be taken care of by a doctor from Afghanistan, Nigeria or Morocco when I visit the local NHS hospital - to be honest I don't give a damn where they are from or what their preferred religion is and am quite glad that they do their job.

[Tom-Brown]

The problem we have is that it is very difficult to win a "war" against an enemy that is not afraid to die.....But these poor mis-guided fools are led by men who indeed like all the trappings of an affluent western way of life. That's why they want to keep the vast muslim population poor and un-educated that's how they can control the masses by telling them that they will go to a better life if they die in pursuit of "Jihad"
It is a sorry situation, but as mentioned in previous threads, most of these countries can only function if they are run by Dictators!!! Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria the secular divisions within the muslim world will never unite - they are all after the same thing - their countries resources!!!!!
All we can do is shut our borders and expel all illegal immigrants !!!!!!

[Audio Advent]

In that case, if it doesn't suit them they can leave! Good riddance!

You seem to have missed the point ENTIRELY !

Not only that but you have deliberately taken a part of my post devoid of all the context and used it to support your bigoted view (and no "bigot" is not an insult, it's a word which describes someone who simply refuses to see any other view than their already held beliefs - you could say that describes ISIS too).

That "all their problems are caused by the devil that is western culture" is their indoctrination! They have been brainwashed with that belief!! Can't you get that into your head at all? It is the perpetrators of that brainwashing who need to be taken care of not the victims.

Therefore they need to be helped. Your approach is the equivalent of shutting down the NHS and telling everyone who is ill to leave because "it's not your problem". You're really showing some dispicable attitudes I must say..

[Audio Advent]

The problem we have is that it is very difficult to win a "war" against an enemy that is not afraid to die.....But these poor mis-guided fools are led by men who indeed like all the trappings of an affluent western way of life. That's why they want to keep the vast muslim population poor and un-educated that's how they can control the masses by telling them that they will go to a better life if they die in pursuit of "Jihad"
It is a sorry situation, but as mentioned in previous threads, most of these countries can only function if they are run by Dictators!!! Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria the secular divisions within the muslim world will never unite - they are all after the same thing - their countries resources!!!!!
All we can do is shut our borders and expel all illegal immigrants !!!!!!

Your last sentence has no logic to it at all and doesn't relate to the rest of what you've posted. Its as if you've tried to reason in the first bit and then just spouted out some prejudice at the end, torrettes style..

[Audio Advent]

Here is a great article by someone who was held captive by ISIS and so has actually seen what they are like first hand on a personal level.

Essentially they are a bunch of bigotted consipracy theorists who have no real interest in islam other than it being their kind of football team to support blindly.


Everything convinces them that they are on the right path and, specifically, that there is a kind of apocalyptic process under way that will lead to a confrontation between an army of Muslims from all over the world and others, the crusaders, the Romans. They see everything as moving us down that road. Consequently, everything is a blessing from Allah.

With their news and social media interest, they will be noting everything that follows their murderous assault on Paris, and my guess is that right now the chant among them will be “We are winning”. They will be heartened by every sign of overreaction, of division, of fear, of racism, of xenophobia; they will be drawn to any examples of ugliness on social media.
Live Paris terror attacks: France launches fresh air strikes on Isis in Syria – live
Latest updates as Paris manhunt continues and France hits back at Islamic State in Raqqa
Read more

Central to their world view is the belief that communities cannot live together with Muslims, and every day their antennae will be tuned towards finding supporting evidence. The pictures from Germany of people welcoming migrants will have been particularly troubling to them. Cohesion, tolerance – it is not what they want to see.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/16/isis-bombs-hostage-syria-islamic-state-paris-attacks

[r100]

"Bombing they expect, unity is what they fear"

A great article and insight, thank's

[Gazjam]

Paris is a shocking tragedy, and these things are happening all too often.
But as always there's advantage to be gained by some.

Already the NSA and GCHQ are using this to try to force software companies to let them bypass encryption....
From the Guardian article HERE:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/french-and-belgian-intelligence-knew-paris-attackers-had-jihadi-backgrounds

And from the man who Pre-Snowdon lied to Congress about mass collection of Data from the American People..

Speaking in Washington (http://csis.org/files/attachments/151116_GSF_OpeningSession.pdf) on Monday, the CIA director, John Brennan, blamed the intelligence gaps leading up to the Paris attacks on the increased ability of terrorist networks to communicate without being intercepted by the security services.

Brennan said there had been “a significant increase in the operational security of a number of these operatives and terrorist networks as they have gone to school on what it is that they need to do in order to keep their activities concealed from the authorities”.
The Belgian government has said that terrorist networks (http://qz.com/550365/belgian-home-affairs-minister-says-isil-communicates-over-playstation-4/) in Belgium had begun used the Sony Play Station 4 for its communications, as a way of avoiding surveillance.
Brennan blamed such developments on “a number of unauthorised disclosures and a lot of handwringing over the government’s role in the effort to try to uncover these terrorists”, and called for intelligence agencies to be given a freer hand in conducting surveillance.

Giving up your freedom, way of life and right to privacy is letting the terrorists win IMO.
Terrorists don't use GMail, they don't use Twitter, Facebook or Google.

These questions will never be asked and they SHOULD be:
* Who has been funding ISIS?
* Where did they come from?
* What factors have instigated the current events?

I suspect these answers are well known to some.
I'm not suggesting inviting ISIS to the negotiating table, but rather dig a bit deeper and see where the trail leads...

[Oldpinkman]

All we can do is shut our borders and expel all illegal immigrants !!!!!!

As Sam has pointed out, this is the response the terrorists seek. It is the sucker response, buying the con. It fails to address the real threat , diverts attention to at best an irrelevance, more likely a means of stoking tension and discord amongst decent people, and creating further alienation from those NATIVE CITIZENS that ISIS seek to ideologically indocrtrinate to join their violence and hatred.

Consider the emerging facts to date. The atrocity was planned in Syria strategically, in Belgium operationally, and executed in France. Over 30 individuals have been directly connected so far, the majority French or Belgian Nationals. You would deport them to France or Belgium where they were born. They are not even immigrants, never mind illegal ones.

Of the seven attackers identified so far 4 are French citizens, and one is a Syrian who entered as a refugee via Greece. The rest of those associated with this are French or Belgian. The migrant was a LEGAL immigrant, a refugee, and a suicide bomber. What can we conclude from this?

The attack was not a knee-jerk response to the death of Jihadi John - the Syrian refugee was despatched long before that American hellcat strike.
It was not "activation of a sleeping cell" in response to Jihadi John. This was a coordinated cohesive whole and the Syrian refugee was sent before the US strike
It was not dependant on a Syrian refugee - he was one of a team of 8, maybe 30 if you include the wider suspect list.
An organisation with oil wealth, and the ability to smuggle automatic weapons into Paris, did not need to get that Syrian there as a refugee - it could have got him there easily by other means
The Syrian regugee blew himself up at the scene of the crime carrying ID that was immediately traceable to a refugee

Yup - his role was not operationally essential. His travel as a refugee via Greece was not operationally essential. He was a stooge. His role was to get Geoff, Martin, Bev and Graham, and thousands like them creating a massive diversion jumping to a conclusion that suits their prejudices and ignores the facts and reality of international terrorism. It was to attempt to divide Europe. It was to create alienation and hostility towards Muslims to drive the marginally radicalised few to become jihadi martyrs. It was to help the supply of terrorists inside the terror target.

I am reminded of a story Sandi Toskvig tells, of her girls schools tough stance on allowing boys on site. All the girls were locked in to their dormatories and the boys locked out. For a teenage lesbian this was a marvelous arrangement!

Yesterday I had a routine post-surgical follow-up appointment after the removal of the stitches from my corneal graft a couple of weeks ago. The registrar carrying out the examination was English but of obviously middle-eastern parentage - probably Syrian or Iraqui.

Don't be a sucker for an ISIS stunt.

[Oldpinkman]

These questions will never be asked and they SHOULD be:
* Who has been funding ISIS?
* Where did they come from?
* What factors have instigated the current events?

I suspect these answers are well known to some.
I'm not suggesting inviting ISIS to the negotiating table, but rather dig a bit deeper and see where the trail leads...

ISIS - "Islamic state" originated in Iraqi jails where Baathist military were incarerated in the aftermath of the Gulf War, encountering islamic radicals from Eastern Iraq.
Its original funding was therefore the USA and the West funding the regime of Saddam Hussein as a buffer against Iran - but now it comes from US and European customers buying the oil sold from the territories controlled by ISIS in Syria and Iraq
The current events were instigated by US and French decisions to attempt to control the spread of ISIS influence in Iraq and Syria without using ground troops and without supporting the (admittedly odious) regime of Assad in Syria. But you could say it was instigated by the gulf war to overthrow Hussein.

[Oddball]

Cant really force myself to read all the counterarguements on here ,its such a complex thing.:rolleyes:

But a friend of mine saw this on tv the other day, and apologies if its already been posted , but it did strike a cord seeing it , well done that lady -:)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nByf7_Nr_WM

[Marco]

Hear, hear - I agree with every word (the Muslim girl) said! :clap:

Btw, I wouldn't be going to today's England vs. France game......... :nono:

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Hear, hear - I agree with every word (the Muslim girl) said! :clap:

Btw, I wouldn't be going to today's England vs. France game......... :nono:

Marco.

And miss the chance to sing the Marseillaise ? I've been practicing!

[Gazjam]

ISIS - "Islamic state" originated in Iraqi jails where Baathist military were incarerated in the aftermath of the Gulf War, encountering islamic radicals from Eastern Iraq.
Its original funding was therefore the USA and the West funding the regime of Saddam Hussein as a buffer against Iran - but now it comes from US and European customers buying the oil sold from the territories controlled by ISIS in Syria and Iraq
The current events were instigated by US and French decisions to attempt to control the spread of ISIS influence in Iraq and Syria without using ground troops and without supporting the (admittedly odious) regime of Assad in Syria. But you could say it was instigated by the gulf war to overthrow Hussein.

Yup, know that Richard,
its something though that needs repeating.

[Macca]

. His role was to get Geoff, Martin, Bev and Graham, and thousands like them creating a massive diversion jumping to a conclusion that suits their prejudices and ignores the facts and reality of international terrorism.
.

Ahem - I am opposed to the mass migration from Syria on economic grounds, not because some of them might be terrorists.

I largely agree with the suggestions that a wave of anti-muslim sentiment is exactly what ISIS wants. What I disagree with is the idea being propagated by some of the bleeding hearts that ISIS is our fault in the first place and that if we had just left the Middle East alone there would be no problem.

[Joe]

Ahem - I am opposed to the mass migration from Syria on economic grounds, not because some of them might be terrorists.

I largely agree with the suggestions that a wave of anti-muslim sentiment is exactly what ISIS wants. What I disagree with is the idea being propagated by some of the bleeding hearts that ISIS is our fault in the first place and that if we had just left the Middle East alone there would be no problem.

It's unknowable either way, of course, but I think the de-stabilisation of the region is in part due to the invasion of Iraq, and that de-stabilisation and the resulting power vacuum was surely a factor in the growth of Isis.

[Macca]

Yes agreed. Saddam should have been replaced with a Mk2 version willing to play ball instead of the democracy nonsense. I'm sure there was no shortage of candidates.

[Gazjam]

Not sure about the bleeding hearts bit...

Hopefully the next US President
oidaJHwZZgs

[Oldpinkman]

Yes agreed. Saddam should have been replaced with a Mk2 version willing to play ball instead of the democracy nonsense. I'm sure there was no shortage of candidates.

That of course, is not quite the same as leaving the region alone your previous suggestion.

The problem can be traced back at least to the 1920's when we first bombed Iraq with chemical weapons - but definitely our subsequent Palestinian occupancy. Lets skip concluding that if Hitler had been left alone we wouldn't have the problem of Israel while proposing trite tough guy solutions, and recognise that the problem with Saddam was that he got bored with annihilating his own people, and lobbing mustard gas at Iranians by the million, and did a bit of his own posturing that he could fill his metal dustbins with fireworks on with nuclear weapons and nerve gas before aiming them at Israel. We were taken in.

It is not a simple problem. There are not simple answers. But it looks like ISIS have made Napoleon and Hitlers blunder, and started a war on 2 fronts including Russia. In the short to medium term, that may put the tin lid on this particular outfit. Although it is unlikely to provide eternal world peace.

The Russians have confirmed their airliner was brought down by a bomb.

[Marco]

I am reminded of a story Sandi Toskvig tells, of her girls schools tough stance on allowing boys on site. All the girls were locked in to their dormatories and the boys locked out. For a teenage lesbian this was a marvelous arrangement!


Now that's a video I'd have bought... :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Macca]

That of course, is not quite the same as leaving the region alone your previous suggestion.

The problem can be traced back at least to the 1920's when we first bombed Iraq with chemical weapons - but definitely our subsequent Palestinian occupancy. .

I never suggested leaving the region alone. I don't believe that has ever been a practical option, not least because of the oil.

Saddam had no interest in Israel. What he did want to do was to stop selling oil for dollars, thus threatening the dollar's status as the global reserve currency and consequently the U.S/ western economies. However the details of why he decided to go off message remain obscure.

From a purely pragmatic point of view our troubles really started with FDR and his naïve insistence on dismantling the British Empire after the war. Of course this would have happened naturally but FDR put in place the deal and it was continued by Truman et al.

The result was we had to carve up the middle east and the Indian sub-continent too quickly and in a sub-optimal manner. Control and ownership of the oil thus passed to what were essentially primitive tribal leaders who were appointed as 'royal families' and given newly-created 'nations' to rule.

Control of the oil supply gave them influence and unlimited money and consequently Islam was able to rise from an obscure cult to a major world religion and its more fanatical proponents now had the resources to commence their ideological crusade, although to begin with this was directed against other muslims (in true Swiftian style) and no-one in the West really considered this to be a major problem at the time.

[Oldpinkman]

I never suggested leaving the region alone. .

You're right. I mis-read your sentence. My apologies

[Oddball]

Now that's a video I'd have bought... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ha ha , me too ,as long as Mizz Toskvig wasn't in it :eyebrows:

[struth]

I never suggested leaving the region alone. I don't believe that has ever been a practical option, not least because of the oil.

Saddam had no interest in Israel. What he did want to do was to stop selling oil for dollars, thus threatening the dollar's status as the global reserve currency and consequently the U.S/ western economies. However the details of why he decided to go off message remain obscure.

From a purely pragmatic point of view our troubles really started with FDR and his naïve insistence on dismantling the British Empire after the war. Of course this would have happened naturally but FDR put in place the deal and it was continued by Truman et al.

The result was we had to carve up the middle east and the Indian sub-continent too quickly and in a sub-optimal manner. Control and ownership of the oil thus passed to what were essentially primitive tribal leaders who were appointed as 'royal families' and given newly-created 'nations' to rule.

Control of the oil supply gave them influence and unlimited money and consequently Islam was able to rise from an obscure cult to a major world religion and its more fanatical proponents now had the resources to commence their ideological crusade, although to begin with this was directed against other muslims (in true Swiftian style) and no-one in the West really considered this to be a major problem at the time.

FDR had little choice as 90% of Americans had great distaste for the empire. If he was to get the slender victories he needed to try and redress that....and of course build up the American empire at same time.

[walpurgis]

Boot out everybody who 'looks funny' and 'talks funny', then nuke everything between Greece and Australia. Problem solved! :thumbsup:



(Yes. I know it's in dreadful taste, but there you go.......... ;))

[struth]

Boot out everybody who 'looks funny' and 'talks funny', then nuke everything between Greece and Australia. Problem solved! :thumbsup:



(Yes. I know it's in dreadful taste, but there you go.......... ;))

From my perspective thats london gone :lol: and wales.... :eyebrows:..

[Macca]

FDR had little choice as 90% of Americans had great distaste for the empire. If he was to get the slender victories he needed to try and redress that....and of course build up the American empire at same time.

No it was actually a personal bugbear of his. The vast bulk of Americans in the 1940s had no real concept of the world outside their own county and thought the British Empire was something from the history books that they had put paid to in 1776.

[struth]

Your entitled to your opinion but not what i understood. Also Churchills own rousing freedom speaches worked rather too well and inspired the empire countries(and not just ours) to desire and then demand theirs...its a bit ironic but he was hoist by his own words

[Oldpinkman]

Great event at Wembley. Not a bad football match in the circumstances , and some promising England performances even if France weren't firing on all cylinders. An important message sent though. According to the guardian article by an isis hostage posted earlier in this thread the terrorists monitor media and social media. My Facebook profile picture now has a tricolour transparency blend. So do 90%of the pictures. I trust they are getting the message.

[Macca]

Your entitled to your opinion but not what i understood. Also Churchills own rousing freedom speaches worked rather too well and inspired the empire countries(and not just ours) to desire and then demand theirs...its a bit ironic but he was hoist by his own words

Well, with history there is interpretation and there is fact. Fact is Roosevelt had a personal interest in dismantling what remained of the Empire after WW2. indeed U.S support and aid was conditional upon that happening. I am talking here of the Indian subcontinent, the Middle-East and portions of Africa. The dominions (NZ, Aus, Canada, SA) were already independent at the outbreak of WW2. I can provide citations if you are still sceptical of this regarding Roosevelt.

The movement for Indian independence was also quite far advanced in 1941 and again Indian military co-operation was to an extent predicated on talks with the independence leaders in that region. Of course at that time they did not imagine that the Japanese would be at the border within 12 months. And that without the assistance of the British troops they would certainly have invaded India as many (not all) of the Indian divisions performed quite poorly. The idea that Churchill's speeches awoke some sort of nationalist fervour that was previously dormant requires some evidence if it is to be more than idle speculation.

The point I was originally making is that the nasty, bloody mess that was Partition was a direct result of U.S pressure on the British to get the thing done as quickly as possible. Likewise the mess we have in the Middle East today stems from this also

Britain had bankrupted herself in WW2 saving the rest of the world from the Nazis and the Japanese and was completely dependant on U.S aid to avert starvation. Even with that aid we had severe rationing for many years afterwards.

Churchill actually understood the situation far better than the Americans. He knew that it would be important in the post war period that as much of Europe be liberated by the Western Powers rather than the Russians (hence his enthusiasm for the invasion of Italy and the Balkans which the Americans were against) and also for a slow and measured dismantling of the Empire rather than a rush job that would cause more problems than it solved. Post war events proved him to be entirely correct.

He was also no fan of Islam, having observed its excesses first hand during the Omdurman campaign, and was dead against the setting up of religious fiefdoms in the Middle East. The Americans were not fussed who was in charge providing it was not the British and providing they were prepared to sign the contracts to extricate the oil. Since the Americans held the purse strings, they called the shots, and that is why we have what we have got now.

[Oddball]

Well, with history there is interpretation and there is fact. Fact is Roosevelt had a personal interest in dismantling what remained of the Empire after WW2. indeed U.S support and aid was conditional upon that happening. I am talking here of the Indian subcontinent, the Middle-East and portions of Africa. The dominions (NZ, Aus, Canada, SA) were already independent at the outbreak of WW2. I can provide citations if you are still sceptical of this regarding Roosevelt.

The movement for Indian independence was also quite far advanced in 1941 and again Indian military co-operation was to an extent predicated on talks with the independence leaders in that region. Of course at that time they did not imagine that the Japanese would be at the border within 12 months. And that without the assistance of the British troops they would certainly have invaded India as many (not all) of the Indian divisions performed quite poorly. The idea that Churchill's speeches awoke some sort of nationalist fervour that was previously dormant requires some evidence if it is to be more than idle speculation.

The point I was originally making is that the nasty, bloody mess that was Partition was a direct result of U.S pressure on the British to get the thing done as quickly as possible. Likewise the mess we have in the Middle East today stems from this also

Britain had bankrupted herself in WW2 saving the rest of the world from the Nazis and the Japanese and was completely dependant on U.S aid to avert starvation. Even with that aid we had severe rationing for many years afterwards.

Churchill actually understood the situation far better than the Americans. He knew that it would be important in the post war period that as much of Europe be liberated by the Western Powers rather than the Russians (hence his enthusiasm for the invasion of Italy and the Balkans which the Americans were against) and also for a slow and measured dismantling of the Empire rather than a rush job that would cause more problems than it solved. Post war events proved him to be entirely correct.

He was also no fan of Islam, having observed its excesses first hand during the Omdurman campaign, and was dead against the setting up of religious fiefdoms in the Middle East. The Americans were not fussed who was in charge providing it was not the British and providing they were prepared to sign the contracts to extricate the oil. Since the Americans held the purse strings, they called the shots, and that is why we have what we have got now.
Interesting stuff Macca

[Marco]

Ha ha , me too ,as long as Mizz Toskvig wasn't in it :eyebrows:

Who's she? No doubt if she's got a damp patch somewhere, you'll be in.... ;)

Marco.

[struth]

Who's she? No doubt if she's got a damp patch somewhere, you'll be in.... ;)

Marco.

I doubt it ;)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/10/article-2291125-188D06D2000005DC-943_306x423.jpg

[Marco]

Is *that* thing even female??? :eek:

Marco.

[Gazjam]

I doubt it ;)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/10/article-2291125-188D06D2000005DC-943_306x423.jpg

Dont get too close, it might lay eggs!