View Full Version : Speaker recommendations please
Hi lads, have a dilemna regarding speakers .Living room is 15" x 10 ft. Chimney is along one long wall with recess either side. Sofa is on the other wall facing the chmney. Either side of the f/p is about the only place i can put speaker;s - at one end of the room are glass doors to conservatory and the other is an archway to dining room.
I have Castle Chesters and AR158's atm, but both are too big for the room , especially the AR's-they need a much bigger space to do them justice.
So, giveni wil be sitting approx 6 ft from the speakers what can you recommend ? Putting them either side of the f/p will mean they will sit about 5-6 ft apart.
Amp will be a Magnum int about 45w a side . Listen mainly to classical, opera and female vocals with a bit of prog when in the mood. Do not like sharp or very forward speakers, had Triangle and B&W in the past and moved those on pretty quick. Budget is around £150 ish s/h of course.
RobbieGong
12-11-2015, 16:55
Hi Gary, I can highly recommend Mission 752 Freedom's. Very balanced, punchy and detailed sound. Totally non fatiguing natural sound with beautiful mids and great imaging - very hard to beat IMO & IME :)
Hi Gary, I can highly recommend Mission 752 Freedom's. Very balanced, punchy and detailed sound. Totally non fatiguing natural sound with beautiful mids and great imaging - very hard to beat IMO & IME :)
Many thanks Robert - just had a look at them and as floorstanders am i not going to face the same problem of them being too large for the room ? Should add i often have to listen at low volume so need speakers that still sound detailed and with some punch at low volumes.
RobbieGong
12-11-2015, 17:55
Oh sorry Gary, read quickly and replied from phone on train home :doh: :o btw my room is similar proportions to yours - 13.5ft by 10.5ft....
The JBLs that Freefall Rob has just put on sale here would seem ideal.
Otherwise Ruark Templars could be had for around that money and would also fit your requirements.
RobbieGong
12-11-2015, 19:15
As you're not saying no to floorstanders then my recommendation of 752 Freedoms most definitely still stands They tick the requirements you mention - great speakers that still sit in my system despite plenty of upgrades along the way. Those JBL's do look nice and from what posts are saying .........
No Robbie,not against floorstanders at all, but the Castles need a bit of room behind them or are just boomy and the AR's even more so. So frustrating ......looked at the JBL, only JBL i have heard were probably the worst speaker i could ever imagine, , more suited to a club disco than a home.
As you're not saying no to floorstanders then my recommendation of 752 Freedoms most definitely still stands They tick the requirements you mention - great speakers that still sit in my system despite plenty of upgrades along the way. Those JBL's do look nice and from what posts are saying .........
fatmarley
13-11-2015, 06:59
looked at the JBL, only JBL i have heard were probably the worst speaker i could ever imagine, , more suited to a club disco than a home.
Those JBLs in the classified section are incredible value for money. Heard them at Scalford a few years back and it was one of the best sounds of the show.
fatmarley
13-11-2015, 07:04
JBL shootout - LINK (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28072-JBL-mini-comparo&highlight=shootout)
Had a look at the link , thanks but i dont think they are for me. Having just bought a TT, funds are tight anyway.
So spent today trying to reposition the AR's. Got them about a foot from the sides of the chimney breast and moved them about 30cm from the back, instead of the 10cm they were and in this position the bass is good, amazing really how less than 20cm can make such a difference. The "boominess" has all but gone.
I think i will stick with them as they really are excellent speaker's when in the right position.
Many thanks guys for the suggestions.
If they have ports you could use a little natural sponge to assist too
if you are only 6 feet from the speakers why not look at studio monitors. I saw a pair of second hand Tannoys (cant remember the model, the where red) for around 100 pounds. Never heard them but the opinions seem to be good.
found a link (actually they are even cheaper than I thought ;-)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-Tannoy-Reveal-Pair-Speakers-Hi-Fi-Studio-Matched-Monitors-/121811589381?hash=item1c5c895905:g:RMYAAOSwwbdWO4j p (http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649018909-tannoy_reveal_passive_studio_monitor_speakers_red_ 200_or_bo/images/484044/)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tannoy-Reveal-Studio-Reference-Monitors-/171990897518?hash=item280b74d36e:g:7GQAAOSwd0BV7Aw W
If they have ports you could use a little natural sponge to assist too
Nah Grant, they are 3 way sealed box.......is fine now ,sounding great :thumbsup:
Bigger dilemna now .....:rolleyes: I picked upa DIY 8 w class A power amp and pre .unfortunately my ARs won't drive them without being turned to near max, which is probably not doing either the amp or speaker's any good. From the brief listen i have given it, it is an excellent amp, soundstage much wider and deeper than the Magnum , probably better than any amp i have had previously.
What would you do ?
I love the AR 58's but i have now heard the potential of this new amp and am torn. I can seek out some efficient speakers (probably need 90db +) to partner it or pretend i didn't hear it at all and stick with the Magnum AR combo. ......really am torn about what to do.
If i choose to go the new route what speakers can you suggest ? (budget would depend on what the AR's would fetch )
Haselsh1
30-12-2015, 14:13
The trouble with loudspeakers is that they have a certain 'inertia' and require a minimum power before they get over their inherent relaxed nature. Once you reach this level the speakers jump into life and sound bloody awesome and powerful. I therefore think that it never truly works keeping the volume really low as you never get above this level and so the speakers always sound slightly dull and lifeless. Also of course, as the volume decreases, the bass disappears and you just end up with midrange and treble. I wish you all the luck in the World sorting this out as I have owned 8Watt single ended amps in the past and have never yet found a truly suitable loudspeaker.
As much as you enjoy the AR speakers they can easily be bettered. You'll need to find something with a sensitivity over 90db to really compliment your new toys yes but a true 8 watts isn't as quiet/weak as many believe.
It's not as if there aren't plenty to choose from and if you've a budget in mind you won't be short of suggestions here.
You find yourself on the precipice. Jump or not this is your choice but I'd go for it and "Damn the torpedoes!".
Ninanina
30-12-2015, 20:42
Bigger dilemna now .....:rolleyes: I picked upa DIY 8 w class A power amp and pre .unfortunately my ARs won't drive them without being turned to near max, which is probably not doing either the amp or speaker's any good. From the brief listen i have given it, it is an excellent amp, soundstage much wider and deeper than the Magnum , probably better than any amp i have had previously.
What would you do ?
I love the AR 58's but i have now heard the potential of this new amp and am torn. I can seek out some efficient speakers (probably need 90db +) to partner it or pretend i didn't hear it at all and stick with the Magnum AR combo. ......really am torn about what to do.
If i choose to go the new route what speakers can you suggest ? (budget would depend on what the AR's would fetch )
Gary my amp is only about 10w and I have found that it drives almost any speaker properly apart from maybe my LS 3/5a's which I think need a bit more oomph... I have used Klipsch Heresy's at about 96dB, Tannoy System 800's at about 92dB and currently my new pair of Rega RS3's at about 89dB and to be honest there is very little difference in the volume control position to obtain the same listening level
I believe your AR 58's are about 87dB so I am surprised that you need to turn the volume to near max but I guess that there are other things that make a speaker easy to drive or not, crossover etc, and it might be that the AR's are a tricky speaker to drive
I can only vouch for the speakers that I have mentioned as they all seem to be very easy to drive with my 10w so can certainly recommend all of them
As much as you enjoy the AR speakers they can easily be bettered. You'll need to find something with a sensitivity over 90db to really compliment your new toys yes but a true 8 watts isn't as quiet/weak as many believe.
It's not as if there aren't plenty to choose from and if you've a budget in mind you won't be short of suggestions here.
You find yourself on the precipice. Jump or not this is your choice but I'd go for it and "Damn the torpedoes!".
:lol: Your last line gave me a chuckle Andrew. Thanks for your input too Shaun, i am hoping i am not forever searching.
So.....diving in , I am guessing at a budget of £250 ish , so yes , recommendations welcome .:please:
celestion ditton 44's and it just so happens.......... :)
walpurgis
30-12-2015, 21:46
You need to be looking at speakers with an efficiency well over 90db.
You can drive these OK with 8 watts:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lowther-Acousta-Main-Stereo-Speakers-Audax-Full-Range-Drivers-HT210A2-/321956960730?hash=item4af62159da:g:bKIAAOSwcBhWYDo q&clk_rvr_id=959524519398&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true
Good quality drivers. About 94db sensitivity. They should be fun! You'd probably get deafening levels. :)
Ninanina
30-12-2015, 22:03
You need to be looking at speaker with an efficiency well over 90db.
So how is it my RS3's at just 89dB seem fine with my Oto ? I was worried that it might not drive them but it does and seemingly quite happily
Gary my amp is only about 10w and I have found that it drives almost any speaker properly apart from maybe my LS 3/5a's which I think need a bit more oomph... I have used Klipsch Heresy's at about 96dB, Tannoy System 800's at about 92dB and currently my new pair of Rega RS3's at about 89dB and to be honest there is very little difference in the volume control position to obtain the same listening level
I believe your AR 58's are about 87dB so I am surprised that you need to turn the volume to near max but I guess that there are other things that make a speaker easy to drive or not, crossover etc, and it might be that the AR's are a tricky speaker to drive
I can only vouch for the speakers that I have mentioned as they all seem to be very easy to drive with my 10w so can certainly recommend all of them
Thanks Bev, the xover in the AR is complicated which i think makes them not an easy drive. The vol on the 8 watter i need to turn to about 3-4 o clock to get a loudish level, with 6 oclock being the max. I could live with that level, but am not sure it is in either the amp or the spkrs best interest long term. And once in a while when you really want to crank old Gustav , well....it just isn't there.
Light Dependant Resistor
31-12-2015, 01:30
So how is it my RS3's at just 89dB seem fine with my Oto ? I was worried that it might not drive them but it does and seemingly quite happily
Hi Bev
Because valve amps display increased power output with higher impedance loads, the opposite of solid state http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps_7.html
Cheers / Chris
celestion ditton 44's and it just so happens.......... :)
Jamie, yer inbox is full mate
Firebottle
31-12-2015, 08:09
The vol on the 8 watter i need to turn to about 3-4 o clock to get a loudish level, with 6 oclock being the max. I could live with that level, but am not sure it is in either the amp or the spkrs best interest long term.
Hi Gary, just a little correction on your post #14, the amp drives the speakers, not the other way around.
The volume level that you quote is not necessarily a risk to any of the equipment. Is there any hint of distortion even when the amp is turned up to the 6 o'clock position?
If there isn't (hopefully) then it sounds like the amp is lacking in gain, this is completely separate from it's 8W power rating.
What is the amp exactly, do you have any specs on it (don't look Marco)?
Could you borrow an active preamp and try that in system? You will probably find you will achieve al the volume you want.
Alan
Jamie, yer inbox is full mate
hi, its empty now :)
So how is it my RS3's at just 89dB seem fine with my Oto ? I was worried that it might not drive them but it does and seemingly quite happily
89dB is a very high volume level, and you have 2 speakers so at a listening distance of 1 metre you will have an spl of 92 dB for just one watt of power which is really blasting it out. You'll also get a bit of extra from room gain especially if the room is not large. Obviously this decreases as you move back from the speakers. If you are 8 metres from the speakers, as you would be in my room, you might find the OTO starts to struggle i.e clip - but as it is a valve amp it won't clip hard so rather than going all hard and nasty it will just lose a bit of sweetness and separation.
It also depends on the music you are listening to. If there is not too much in the way of dynamics then you don't need to worry about headroom but if you have turned it up to hear the quiet parts in a very dynamic recording you may find you run out of power in the 'loud' passages.
Where you are on the volume pot is no indicator of how much power you are using or of how powerful the amp is. It is just a function of the volume pot and the gain structure. Setting the volume pot so that the amp is giving full power half way round the dial is an old trick manufacturers use to make the amp seem very powerful: 'listen to how loud it is and I'm only a third round the dial!'
It's meaningless.
Hi Gary, just a little correction on your post #14, the amp drives the speakers, not the other way around.
The volume level that you quote is not necessarily a risk to any of the equipment. Is there any hint of distortion even when the amp is turned up to the 6 o'clock position?
If there isn't (hopefully) then it sounds like the amp is lacking in gain, this is completely separate from it's 8W power rating.
What is the amp exactly, do you have any specs on it (don't look Marco)?
Could you borrow an active preamp and try that in system? You will probably find you will achieve al the volume you want.
Alan
Hi Alan, many thanks for your post, in reply , no not a hint of distortion when the amp is at max volume. Still very clear and good to know i am not causing any damage but will still play it at just 12 oclock , just in case.
So, if it is lacking in gain , what does that mean ?
I don't know any hifi buffs around me where i could try a preamp and see if that makes a difference.
I will take the cover off the amp today and try to post some photos on here. I do not have the specs except for that it is rated at 8w class A.
Firebottle
31-12-2015, 11:11
Martin is spot on referring to the gain structure of the amplifier/system.
I have been trying to think of a very simple analogy for the gain/power/matching involved with different components, that could be understood by those with no electronics background.
When I do I shall post it on AoS.
The 'lacking in gain' means that the amp is not sensitive enough to convert the input signal to it's full 8W potential output.
You could think of it being 'deaf' to lower level input signals.
What are you using as source equipment? Is it a CD player or something else. Most CDP's have what is considered a large output signal level of 2V. Virtually any power amplifier should be driven to maximum output with this signal level.
Rule of speakers is you can only ever have 2 of these 3:
Small size, deep bass, high sensitivity.
I have a class A single ended valve amp I got from Alan. It is the most wonderful sounding amp. But even using speakers at 96dB sensitivity it cannot produce an acceptable volume (for me) at my listening position. The choices are to use much more sensitive speakers - over 100dB or move the speakers closer to the listening position or the listening position closer to the speakers.
I'd rather use more sensitive speakers and keep the room arrangement as is but to get a speaker that sensitive you need horn loading, not just of part of the frequency spectrum but the whole thing. This throws up another problem which is that smallish, inexpensive horns are not at all to my taste and big multi way horn speakers (which I do like) are very expensive due to the amount of woodworking involved.
So whilst you can use a very low power amp with 'conventional' speakers as Bev is doing you do need to be sat quite close to them. Not a problem if you prefer near-field listening as many do. Even then you have to choose said speakers wisely as the single ended amps response will change with the varying impedance of the load it sees, as explained earlier, although in my limited experience this is less of an issue in practice than it may appear to be on paper.
Ninanina
31-12-2015, 17:59
89dB is a very high volume level, and you have 2 speakers so at a listening distance of 1 metre you will have an spl of 92 dB for just one watt of power which is really blasting it out. You'll also get a bit of extra from room gain especially if the room is not large. Obviously this decreases as you move back from the speakers. If you are 8 metres from the speakers, as you would be in my room, you might find the OTO starts to struggle i.e clip - but as it is a valve amp it won't clip hard so rather than going all hard and nasty it will just lose a bit of sweetness and separation.
It also depends on the music you are listening to. If there is not too much in the way of dynamics then you don't need to worry about headroom but if you have turned it up to hear the quiet parts in a very dynamic recording you may find you run out of power in the 'loud' passages.
Where you are on the volume pot is no indicator of how much power you are using or of how powerful the amp is. It is just a function of the volume pot and the gain structure. Setting the volume pot so that the amp is giving full power half way round the dial is an old trick manufacturers use to make the amp seem very powerful: 'listen to how loud it is and I'm only a third round the dial!'
It's meaningless.
Thanks Martin for the explanation I think I get it now... :scratch: :D
If I was 8 metres away from my speakers I would be well into my next door neighbours front room and I don't think they would be to happy with me :eek::eek:
Ninanina
31-12-2015, 18:11
Hi Bev
Because valve amps display increased power output with higher impedance loads, the opposite of solid state http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps_7.html
Cheers / Chris
Thanks Chris for the link, very interesting reading but I don't for one minute admit to completely understanding it :doh:
Martin is spot on referring to the gain structure of the amplifier/system.
I have been trying to think of a very simple analogy for the gain/power/matching involved with different components, that could be understood by those with no electronics background.
When I do I shall post it on AoS.
The 'lacking in gain' means that the amp is not sensitive enough to convert the input signal to it's full 8W potential output.
You could think of it being 'deaf' to lower level input signals.
What are you using as source equipment? Is it a CD player or something else. Most CDP's have what is considered a large output signal level of 2V. Virtually any power amplifier should be driven to maximum output with this signal level.
Cheers Alan, explains it fine. Am using Cd as source as it only has the one input.
Can anyone explain how and what difference a Pre amp would make ? Would it not change the sound i am getting from the amp ? i.e. the characteristics of the pre would be dominant ?
15957
15958
15959
15960
15961
can only add 5 pics .
Those big Siemens are 47,000 uf apiece, there are some big white caps part hidden Sangand ? 4,000 uf each and nice Nichicons in there too.
Firebottle
31-12-2015, 20:05
It does seem like your amp is seriously lacking in gain.
It should only need an amplification factor of about 10 to get from a 2 volt CD output up to about 8-10W into 8 ohm speakers. That is not a big gain at all.
I'm wondering if there is a built in attenuator on the inputs. You have only shown internal pictures of the power supply. What valves are used in the amplifier section?
:)
Ninanina
31-12-2015, 20:12
Just a thought Gary, due to previous posts, is your room huge ? :)
Ninanina
31-12-2015, 20:15
Ooops I should have read your first post... 15' x 10' ... no it's not huge... :doh:
Ooops I should have read your first post... 15' x 10' ... no it's not huge... :doh:
Dont ask Marco how big his is ;)
It does seem like your amp is seriously lacking in gain.
It should only need an amplification factor of about 10 to get from a 2 volt CD output up to about 8-10W into 8 ohm speakers. That is not a big gain at all.
I'm wondering if there is a built in attenuator on the inputs. You have only shown internal pictures of the power supply. What valves are used in the amplifier section?
:)
I haven't upened up the amp, but i know there are no valves in it,.It is a SS amp . The power amp weighs about 7 - 8 kg , the amp less than 1kg
Ooops I should have read your first post... 15' x 10' ... no it's not huge... :doh:
Na, not huge and i actually only sit about 6 ft from the spkrs.
I should clarify , there is volume , at full vol you would have to shout to be heard over it. But at say 2 oclock it is about ok enough to have conversation.
Firebottle
01-01-2016, 08:41
I did think from the case that it was probably SS, looks great:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15958&d=1451587392
Does the case get warm/hot, is it used as a heatsink?
Regarding adding a low gain preamp, it shouldn't change the sound only make it louder when further round the volume knob travel.
Just to confirm the signal level what is your CDP?
I did think from the case that it was probably SS, looks great:
Does the case get warm/hot, is it used as a heatsink?
Regarding adding a low gain preamp, it shouldn't change the sound only make it louder when further round the volume knob travel.
Just to confirm the signal level what is your CDP?
No Alan, case stays cool even after 4 hrs or so.Opened up the amp, (pyramid) - little in there apart from a heatsink running all the way across, volume control(motorised), and the connections. Thats it.
I have a cheap rotel 850 pre coming so will be very interesting to see if that adds the missing gain.
Cd player is Myryad 10 or denon 2910 thru a beresford bushmaster.
Firebottle
01-01-2016, 20:37
'Opened up the amp, (pyramid) - little in there apart from a heatsink running all the way across, volume control(motorised), and the connections.'
Pics please, I'm too intrigued now. Close ups of the devices on the heatsink also.
:)
Pics please, I'm too intrigued now. Close ups of the devices on the heatsink also.
:)[/QUOTE]15968159691597015971
There ya go
15972
Undrside of heatsink
Firebottle
04-01-2016, 08:16
Thanks, very interesting.
See anything there Alan that i should be aware of, or could improve ?
Firebottle
04-01-2016, 15:33
Looks like it's reasonably well screwed together using decent parts.
A circuit diagram would of course interest me, but I don't suppose you have that.
Cheers.
Looks like it's reasonably well screwed together using decent parts.
A circuit diagram would of course interest me, but I don't suppose you have that.
Cheers.
Nah, no schematic i'm sorry to say.
Had a look at the link , thanks but i dont think they are for me. Having just bought a TT, funds are tight anyway.
So spent today trying to reposition the AR's. Got them about a foot from the sides of the chimney breast and moved them about 30cm from the back, instead of the 10cm they were and in this position the bass is good, amazing really how less than 20cm can make such a difference. The "boominess" has all but gone.
I think i will stick with them as they really are excellent speaker's when in the right position.
Many thanks guys for the suggestions.
I also have a chimney breast and a similar sized room. I could never get it to sound right with the speakers in the recesses. I now have to pull my speakers out beyond the breast everytime I want a proper listening session, hard work I know, I use a wood stencil on the hearth to position the speakers. The speakers are focal aria 906 and do not need boundaries to reinforce the bass.
I can't leave them out because I have kids BTW :)
I also have a chimney breast and a similar sized room. I could never get it to sound right with the speakers in the recesses. I now have to pull my speakers out beyond the breast everytime I want a proper listening session, hard work I know, I use a wood stencil on the hearth to position the speakers. The speakers are focal aria 906 and do not need boundaries to reinforce the bass.
Got a set of focals in the cupboard..(dont use them now alas) Very good and well made speakers.. Mine like some space too.
leave the kids out ;)
:rfl:
I also have a chimney breast and a similar sized room. I could never get it to sound right with the speakers in the recesses. I now have to pull my speakers out beyond the breast everytime I want a proper listening session, hard work I know, I use a wood stencil on the hearth to position the speakers. The speakers are focal aria 906 and do not need boundaries to reinforce the bass.
Yes, we have similar problems Howard. Difficulty is when moving them forward to counteract the rear wall (they are not bass shy, no reinforcement needed) they are a) "dominating the room", quote , and b) obscuring viewing the tv. Plus they are damn heavy to keep lugging back and forth. Compounded with the problem of the new amp not really able to drive them and i am :brickwall: grrrrr!!!
So, the pre amp arrived today. Hooked it up and a lot more gain, more than enough volume , except when fairly loud i am getting some distortion !!Tried a different pair of speakers and get the same. Any ideas/solutions ? :scratch: Have temporarily put my Magnum back in. Lost a bit of soundstage but no distortion.
walpurgis
08-01-2016, 17:57
Power amp input overload? If so, line attenuators are a possible fix, but they reduce overall volume levels.
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