Wi-Fi or wired .

[brian2957]

This is one for the computer guys on the forum . I've recently started using Spotify Premium and I've been pleasantly surprised with the sound quality . I use a wireless connection from my Virgin media superhub to my PC . Will I get an improvement in SQ if I use Cat5 cable to hardwire the connection . I would need around 15m of cable to keep things tidy ( read keep the wife happy :D ) If there's an improvement to be had by hard wiring which cable should I be using . I'm a computer numpty so all advice greatly appreciated . :)

[struth]

I believe cat 6 is the best for audio Brian. quicker too.. Im using it with my pi at moment. Hard to say if it will actually be better in your instance but for a fairly cheap price its worth the trying


http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00J3V6HAO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

[PaulStewart]

I use a wireless connection from my Virgin media superhub to my PC . Will I get an improvement in SQ if I use Cat5 cable to hardwire the connection.

Yes almost certainly, but there are variants of CAT5, also what form of soundcard/DAC is the PC using?


I believe cat 6 is the best for audio Brian. quicker too.. Im using it with my pi at moment

for Audio use I have found CAT6 can sound better as it has greater bandwidth, but for me, it's more todo with what the cable is connecting

Cheers

[brian2957]

Thanks gents . Sorry Paul I don't know what soundcard is in the PC . I use a Rega DAC which overrides ths internal soundcard I believe . Can't be sure though :scratch:

[DSJR]

I couldn't give a stuff about sonic differences in Ethernet cables, assuming it's not all imaginary as some undoubtedly is imo, but I'd always go wired over wireless if at all possible. More secure too when computing away from music access.

[brian2957]

Thanks Dave . :)

[dougmon]

I don't know if the sound quality would be better if your setup was wired; but I would assume it would be more reliable. I've wired both my audio and video, and I know for a fact that the video is much, much better. I _think_ the audio is better; but I could be fooling myself.

[brian2957]

Thanks Doug , prices aren't too high so worth a try then :)

[Canetoad]

I use a Cat6 backbone cable round the house Brian. Eventually I'll have an RJ45 connection in every room. Currently I have one in the family room, lounge and home office. Still have to run cable to a couple of bedrooms and, finally, the workshop/shed. I'll be able to pipe music from the NAS just about anywhere round the house. :eyebrows:

[brian2957]

Hey Bernie , hope you are well mate . Still enjoying life down under . Did you manage to get a job :D
I use wireless around the house and it works pretty well . I've been told a wired connection may be better between my superhub and my music server , so I'm going to give it a try with CAT 7 cable though . Luvvin this Spotify Premium . This may be a keeper :)

[struth]

No easy way for me to get cable upstairs so kinda stuck with wifi ....the pi downstairs it hard wired. I wanted to run a pi upstairs too but would mean getting a cable up..ive tried wifi on it but it wouldnt work for me. Thus my spare pi is just that. Boxed with all accessories and hdd. Its a bit wasteful of me having all that cash doing nowt lol

[brian2957]

What about this Grant http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0084Y9N3O?keywords=wifi%20plugs&qid=1446469307&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

[jandl100]

Good to hear you are liking Spotify Premium, Brian. :)

I use wifi Internet hub to laptop, then standard 5 metre £4 USB cable to my dac and I think sounds fabulous :)

[brian2957]

Well pleased with Premium Jerry so thanks for the advice . I'm just seeing if I can squeeze a little better performance out of it with a wired connection . If this is as good as it gets though I'll be more than happy with it . :D

[robtweed]

I also use a Powerline adaptor (a BT one, but they're all pretty similar) to create a wired connection from my servers upstairs to the Pi / Moode streamer downstairs. The only problem I've experienced is with 96/24 files which were prone to break-up - I think due to occasional congestion over the Powerline connection.

I really don't think there should be any audible difference between audio streamed over wireless and wired Ethernet other than the latter reducing the risk of drop-outs and glitches, particularly if your wireless network is heavily used for other things. The available bandwidth over wired Ethernet is much higher than your average wifi.

[jandl100]

Well pleased with Premium Jerry so thanks for the advice . I'm just seeing if I can squeeze a little better performance out of it with a wired connection . If this is as good as it gets though I'll be more than happy with it . :D

:thumbsup:

I'd like to avoid more wires if possible, but I'll be very interested in your findings. :popcorn:

[WAD62]

Well pleased with Premium Jerry so thanks for the advice . I'm just seeing if I can squeeze a little better performance out of it with a wired connection . If this is as good as it gets though I'll be more than happy with it . :D

At this point we are still in the realms of IT, and a reliable file transfer protocol...

The only advantage of using wired is reliability, if you cant get a reliable wifi config, or you want to transfer very large files.

For streaming FLAC to 4 SB devices (2 Pis, an SB3, and a touch) my wifi is very reliable...

IMHO The only question can be, what adverse secondary effects are brought in by having a wifi dongle running on the client, as opposed to the client being physically connected to the router/server...:)

I think there are advantages in physically de-coupling the client from the router/server, via wifi...

[jandl100]

Being an ardent IT-technophobe and therefore knowing zilch about the things that Will has just expounded on :scratch: ... I nonetheless like this bit ....


I think there are advantages in physically de-coupling the client from the router/server, via wifi...

:D

[WAD62]

Being an ardent IT-technophobe and therefore knowing zilch about the things that Will has just expounded on :scratch: ... I nonetheless like this bit ....

:D

Welcome to my world Jerry...;)

Just wait till I get on to data virtualisation and semantic abstraction...!!! :D

[jandl100]

Welcome to my world Jerry...;)

Just wait till I get on to data virtualisation and semantic abstraction...!!! :D

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!! - that is not a world I want to be in. :nono:

I just wanna listen to ma choons. :)

[WAD62]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!! - that is not a world I want to be in. :nono:

I just wanna listen to ma choons. :)

...it's a necessary evil for choon funding! ;)

[brian2957]

Me too . My motto is '' keep it simple '' and let those who want to get involved in science do the hard stuff :)

I will indeed keep you posted Jerry . The cables should be here sometime today :)

I've ordered CAT6 and CAT7 , but I've been reading , and hearing , that there are shielding issues with CA7 cable where it may act as an antenna because the shield isn't earthed . Anyone care to comment on this .

[WAD62]

Me too . My motto is '' keep it simple '' and let those who want to get involved in science do the hard stuff :)

I will indeed keep you posted Jerry . The cables should be here sometime today :)

I've ordered CAT6 and CAT7 , but I've been reading , and hearing , that there are shielding issues with CA7 cable where it may act as an antenna because the shield isn't earthed . Anyone care to comment on this .

I thought you wanted to keep it simple...;)

[brian2957]

Hah ! Running a couple of wires from me superhub to me server may cause me some difficulties Will :lol: However , that's as far as it goes as far as technicalities go . :lol:
You seem like a technical type so any thoughts on CAT6 V CAT7 ? Any advice appreciated .

[WAD62]

You seem like a technical type so any thoughts on CAT6 V CAT7 ? Any advice appreciated .

Not quite my forte Brian, but if you're going to stick a big cable into your DAC/Streaming Client, make sure it's shielded would be my suggestion...:)

[brian2957]

Thanks Will . I think both CAT6 and CAT7 are shielded . :)

[Stratmangler]

I've ordered CAT6 and CAT7 , but I've been reading , and hearing , that there are shielding issues with CA7 cable where it may act as an antenna because the shield isn't earthed . Anyone care to comment on this .

Let's get things straight - you have not ordered Cat6 and Cat7 cable - you have ordered Cat6 and Cat7 patch leads.
The difference is small but significant - patch leads are made up with multiple stranded legs.

Now Cat7 installations (and indeed all STP installations) have very strict earthing criteria, non of which will be met by simply plugging in a patch lead.
Simply plugging in a patch lead may make matters worse because of the potential of connection of ground planes on different bits of equipment - electrical noise can be transmitted over the ground connection, and the ground connection isn't itself connected to a reference ground (ie the ground is referred to as floating).
Because of this floating ground there's also greater potential of picking up airborne RF.

With respect to WiFi providing greater immunity to cable borne interference, I would like to point out that the data legs on a LAN connection are transformer coupled, so do not have a physical connection to gear connected at each end.
The transformer coupling also effectively block DC, so an ethernet cable fault won't bring down a network.

[Stratmangler]

Thanks Will . I think both CAT6 and CAT7 are shielded . :)

Cat7 is, Cat6 is not necessarily so but can be.

[struth]

Was going to say that chris. Utp is what is best for patch cable apparently, as the shield can end up as an attena due to not earthing it properly.

[brian2957]

Thanks for the information Chris .I'm having to run a 15m length of this cable so if the SQ is worse than Wi-Fi I'll know why , rather than scratching my head and wondering why :)
Is there any way of providing an earth feed to one of these patch cables .

EDIT : I stand corrected . I've just checked and it seems that the CAT6 cable I've ordered is not shielded .

[Stratmangler]

Is there any way of providing an earth feed to one of these patch cables

It's not a simple thing to do.
Your router has a wall wart SMPS PSU - there's no ground connection to the power input, so you're snookered before you start.
The gear at the other end will similarly have no ground connection as such.
At home you're on a hiding to nothing, unless you have a proper screened data cabling installation installed - at least then the cabling will have ground continuity.

In big commercial installations the electricians go to great lengths to ensure that the data cabinets are all bonded and at the same loop impedance.
They also go to great lengths to try and get the loop impedance of the power supply the same as that of the data cabinets.
The cabling panels are all earthed by virtue of the entire cabinet being earthed, and the data switches are also earthed in the same fashion.

This is also why it's relatively rare to find the majority of small to medium sized businesses having proper screened installations done (coz it costs a lot more), and in reality there's little need for it.
I've only once installed Cat6 cable because of RFI issues stopping the network from running at Gigabit.
Cat5e is usually more than up to running Gigabit network (it should be capable of handling 3 times that speed).

I have been in buildings that are in exactly the right position and with exactly the right orientation and layout that act as aerials, and a screened installation is a must in such circumstances, but for the majority of users it isn't necessary.
I have also been in buildings in very close proximity to big TV and radio transmitters, and they too require properly screened data cabling installation.

[brian2957]

I'm in a semi rural setting Chris , but I really haven't a clue if that makes any difference . I think I'll try the CAT6 cable and see if it makes any difference to the SQ and return the CAT7 . Thanks very much for taking the time to provide me with all this information .
I will buy you a small cola when we meet at NEBO6 :D

[Yomanze]

I prefer wired & just stick to nicely built CAT5e.

I am a cable believer, but I am not an Ethernet cable believer as long as it works to spec, it's fine. People need to understand how Ethernet works to understand why it is preposterous to think it affects audio quality. This is the one area where I would only believe a blind test. Sometimes people just get too carried away in believing their own ears...

[Neil McCauley]

This is one for the computer guys on the forum . I've recently started using Spotify Premium and I've been pleasantly surprised with the sound quality . I use a wireless connection from my Virgin media superhub to my PC . Will I get an improvement in SQ if I use Cat5 cable to hardwire the connection . I would need around 15m of cable to keep things tidy ( read keep the wife happy :D ) If there's an improvement to be had by hard wiring which cable should I be using . I'm a computer numpty so all advice greatly appreciated . :)

One reason I was forced to abandon Wi-Fi is the deeply frustrating occurence of REIN. Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise (REIN) and Single Isolated Impulse Noise (SHINE) describe interference that can affect the stability and performance of a Broadband service. In both cases, a power source is generating interference in the frequencies used by the ADSL Broadband service.

REIN is where this interference is generated for the duration of use of an electrical device, and will typically result in disconnections or line errors while the device is in use. At its most extreme, REIN may prevent any connection being established at all.

We have this in my vicinity and BT Outreach have spent days trying to track it down.

More at https://support.zen.co.uk/kb/knowledgebase/broadband-understanding-rein-and-shine

[Stratmangler]

One reason I was forced to abandon Wi-Fi is the deeply frustrating occurence of REIN. Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise (REIN) and Single Isolated Impulse Noise (SHINE) describe interference that can affect the stability and performance of a Broadband service. In both cases, a power source is generating interference in the frequencies used by the ADSL Broadband service.

REIN is where this interference is generated for the duration of use of an electrical device, and will typically result in disconnections or line errors while the device is in use. At its most extreme, REIN may prevent any connection being established at all.

We have this in my vicinity and BT Outreach have spent days trying to track it down.

More at https://support.zen.co.uk/kb/knowledgebase/broadband-understanding-rein-and-shine

I've encountered problems with standard telephony and external noise sources.
The most perplexing one was the case of the Siemens Hicom 120 phone system, and a horrible audible noise burst during external conversation.
The problem did not occur on internal calls.
The noise did not occur continuously, and as is often the case with intermittent effects it was very difficult to pin down.

After several months of attending site and trying to locate the source we finally had a breakthrough - one of the neighbouring companies made pressed laminated furniture, and they used an ultrasonic booth to make the glue between the laminated layers go off.
Every time they turned the ultrasound equipment on the noise occurred on external calls.

The cure was a simple one - fit a BT 80B (http://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/BT80BRF3.html) junction box on each analogue line connected to the system, and the problem was cured.
It took a lot of man hours to get there, but we eventually got there.

[Stratmangler]

Thinking on about your WiFi problem, Howard, have you tried using different channels on your router?
There is a small possibility that it's channel specific.

[Neil McCauley]

I've encountered problems with standard telephony and external noise sources.
The most perplexing one was the case of the Siemens Hicom 120 phone system, and a horrible audible noise burst during external conversation.
The problem did not occur on internal calls.
The noise did not occur continuously, and as is often the case with intermittent effects it was very difficult to pin down.

After several months of attending site and trying to locate the source we finally had a breakthrough - one of the neighbouring companies made pressed laminated furniture, and they used an ultrasonic booth to make the glue between the laminated layers go off.
Every time they turned the ultrasound equipment on the noise occurred on external calls.

The cure was a simple one - fit a BT 80B (http://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/BT80BRF3.html) junction box on each analogue line connected to the system, and the problem was cured.
It took a lot of man hours to get there, but we eventually got there.

Chris - thank you SO much. I'll get one and will report back. Such is the value of AoS!

[Neil McCauley]

Thinking on about your WiFi problem, Howard, have you tried using different channels on your router?
There is a small possibility that it's channel specific.

Thank you and yes, we tried that. No improvement. I appreciate the observation and thanks again

[Stratmangler]

Chris - thank you SO much. I'll get one and will report back. Such is the value of AoS!

Just be aware that it might not cure the problem - the issue I was dealing with was related to speech, which the filter does cure.
Because it's a filter it may cause issues with ADSL transmission on the line.

[NRG]

Howard problem seems to be linked to the ADSL connection Chris not the wifi itself, unless I've misread him....

[icehockeyboy]

I'm using wifi from my router/modem to my Squeezebox, it always shows 100% signal strength, so, my question is would I benefit from using a run of cat whatever number between them?

[brian2957]

Craig , the CAT6 cable arrived this afternoon and I've been listening to my system with it between my Superhub and Korus music server . Initial impressions are improvements in most areas . I'll have to do some more listening though to confirm this . I'll post further on this in a few days when I've got some more hours and music under my belt . I also think the CAT6 needs to burn in a bit :sofa:

[Gazjam]

Who'da thunk it!? :mental:

[icehockeyboy]

Anyone care to explain why ( in simple soul wording!) why a hard wired connection will give sonic rewards, as compared to a wifi connection?

[brian2957]

Pass :D

[Stratmangler]

Mine's wired for reliability.
The cable has much wider bandwidth than a WiFi hookup.
One of the Squeezeboxes runs wirelessly - can't say as I've noticed any difference in sound quality, but there again it has a chip amp and a set of tiny Gale shelfmounts hanging off the back of it.
The wireless Squeezebox has also had more connectivity issues where it has required a reboot to get it to behave itself, but it's not too often an occurrence.

[struth]

Apart from being quicker and more secure I think jitter is drastically reduced using a cable

[brian2957]

Thanks for the explanations gents , I'm afraid I'm a technical numpty . Still like to try things though . The superhub and the server are in the same room so I thought I'd give it a try and I think my efforts weren't wasted .:)

[Stratmangler]

Howard problem seems to be linked to the ADSL connection Chris not the wifi itself, unless I've misread him....

I have just gone back and reread Howard's post, and I did miss the bit about his ADSL causing problems.

Howard, what does it say on the line box?
I'm going to assume it looks something like this https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/Products/size_3/GPNTE5A.JPG, but it will have branding on it of some sort, and the specific brand markings may be of significance.

The other one is can you give a post code?
It may be possible to bring up an overhead image on Google Earth to see what is in your immediate vicinity.

[jandl100]

.... and I think my efforts weren't wasted .:)

Aha. You've tried it then?
Better than wifi? Damn !
.... :popcorn:

[brian2957]

IMO yes Jerry . Well worth a try . :)

[jandl100]

I shall investigate the practicalities of trying it.
Must admit I don't feel I need an sonic upgrade, but I confess to being intrigued!

[brian2957]

I have now been playing around with CAT cables between my Virgin Media superhub and my Korus music server for a few days now and these are my findings . These modifications may , or may not , work in your system . I can only tell you what I hear in my own room , with my own system , and with my own ears . There are technical explanations as to why this should not be happening , just as there are technical explanations as to why USB cables should not make a jot of difference to the SQ of my system . I tried several USB cables and I now make my own and they sound better than any other USB cable which I have tried in my system .
I have no knowledge of the technicalities of how or why CAT cables work and therefore I will not get involved in discussion as to why this should , or should not work simply because I have no explanation . I have only one measuring device , my own ears , which I trust after being into this hobby for over 30 years . :)
Firstly I have to say that I didn't try CAT5 cable simply because I read that CAT6 cable was better . Secondly , both CAT6 and CAT7 cables proved to be better than my WiFi connection in terms of a more secure and faster connection , and in terms of SQ . However , I did find that there was a very audible difference in SQ ( using Spotify ) between CAT6 and CAT7 cable . Cat6 cable had a fuller sound with a big soundstage and excellent bass . CAT7 cable had a slightly thinner sound which placed more emphasis on the top end . Bass was also slightly thinner , but possibly cleaner . CAT7 cable seemed to present more detail , particularly in the mids and top end .
In the end use of either of these cables will depend on which which type of sound you prefer . Ultimately , though , if you are using WiFi and can use wired CAT cable instead , you may be missing out on the best SQ which your system is capable of .
I hope to get the troops around to verify what I have heard ( with my own ears and with my own system ) and I hope to revisit this thread and post their conclusions in due course . :)

[jandl100]

Thanks Brian ... nice bit of arse-covering in the opening sentences. ;)

I have some CAT6 cable ordered and on its way to try in my own currently wifi setup. And IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT !!! :lol:

[brian2957]

Morning Jerry . Yes , a little bit of '' arse covering '' on my part mate . It's early and I've just had my first coffee :lol: I'll have another look later just to make sure I've covered all the '' bases '' . :lol:
I look forward to your impressions of of a wired connection , if only to confirm what I'm hearing .:)
If this was an ultra expensive upgrade I just wouldn't be posting on this . The reality is that it costs less than the price of a pub lunch and is well worth a try IMO .

[RichB]

Interesting Brian.

My own view is we have enough bloody cables around us already in this hobby so wireless will always be my preferred option. The sound difference would have to be enormous.

[jandl100]

I have now been playing around with CAT cables between my Virgin Media superhub and my Korus music server for a few days now and these are my findings . These modifications may , or may not , work in your system . I can only tell you what I hear in my own room , with my own system , and with my own ears . There are technical explanations as to why this should not be happening , just as there are technical explanations as to why USB cables should not make a jot of difference to the SQ of my system . I tried several USB cables and I now make my own and they sound better than any other USB cable which I have tried in my system .
I have no knowledge of the technicalities of how or why CAT cables work and therefore I will not get involved in discussion as to why this should , or should not work simply because I have no explanation . I have only one measuring device , my own ears , which I trust after being into this hobby for over 30 years . :)
Firstly I have to say that I didn't try CAT5 cable simply because I read that CAT6 cable was better . Secondly , both CAT6 and CAT7 cables proved to be better than my WiFi connection in terms of a more secure and faster connection , and in terms of SQ . However , I did find that there was a very audible difference in SQ ( using Spotify ) between CAT6 and CAT7 cable . Cat6 cable had a fuller sound with a big soundstage and excellent bass . CAT7 cable had a slightly thinner sound which placed more emphasis on the top end . Bass was also slightly thinner , but possibly cleaner . CAT7 cable seemed to present more detail , particularly in the mids and top end .
In the end use of either of these cables will depend on which which type of sound you prefer . Ultimately , though , if you are using WiFi and can use wired CAT cable instead , you may be missing out on the best SQ which your system is capable of .
I hope to get the troops around to verify what I have heard ( with my own ears and with my own system ) and I hope to revisit this thread and post their conclusions in due course . :)

Brian is threatening to duck down behind his sofa on this one and reduce the impact of his glorious prose.

So I thought I'd quote it and save it for posterity! :D

[brian2957]

It is very audible Richard . Why not try a cheat CAT6 cable and quickly run a cable between your hub and your laptop . I understand that this may be a major undertaking for some people . My hub and my music server are in the same room and so it was relatively easy for me to try :)
If we get the chance I'll discuss this with you further next Saturday . I'm really looking forward to NEBO 6 and to meeting all the guys :)

[Stratmangler]

I have no knowledge of the technicalities of how or why CAT cables work and therefore I will not get involved in discussion as to why this should , or should not work simply because I have no explanation . I have only one measuring device , my own ears , which I trust after being into this hobby for over 30 years . :)

Well they don't work by magic.
They are engineered to do a job, and that job is to carry packet data from one device to another.
With a music server setup let's get one thing straight - your patch cable data network is not carrying any musical signal whatsoever. It is carrying packet data, and as long as that data lands in buffer within a certain time frame it's not even necessary for the packets to arrive in exactly the right sequence - the packets are played back from buffer, and if a packet is missing because it landed outside of its time window you get silence.


Firstly I have to say that I didn't try CAT5 cable simply because I read that CAT6 cable was better . Secondly , both CAT6 and CAT7 cables proved to be better than my WiFi connection in terms of a more secure and faster connection , and in terms of SQ . However , I did find that there was a very audible difference in SQ ( using Spotify ) between CAT6 and CAT7 cable . Cat6 cable had a fuller sound with a big soundstage and excellent bass . CAT7 cable had a slightly thinner sound which placed more emphasis on the top end . Bass was also slightly thinner , but possibly cleaner . CAT7 cable seemed to present more detail , particularly in the mids and top end .
In the end use of either of these cables will depend on which which type of sound you prefer . Ultimately , though , if you are using WiFi and can use wired CAT cable instead , you may be missing out on the best SQ which your system is capable of .
I hope to get the troops around to verify what I have heard ( with my own ears and with my own system ) and I hope to revisit this thread and post their conclusions in due course . :)

The way the cables differ is that they are designed to carry packet data at increasing speeds.
Cat5e is sufficient to carry gigabit transfer in most applications.
Cat6 provides lower crosstalk and improved RFI rejection over Cat5e.
Cat7 installed properly provides the best environment of all, but I will be clear about this, piddling about with Cat7 patch leads is not using Cat7 properly installed.
In a data network none of the cable types carry musical signal - it's all packet data.

Now I'll offer a theory as to why your Cat7 patch lead has an audible effect.
Your server probably has a linear PSU. It's something I'd expect Gary to have done.
Your router does not. It has a cheap 'n' nasty SMPS.
A Cat7 patch cable connects the ground plane of the router to the ground plane of the server, and what you're hearing could well be the result of ground plane cross contamination.
The Cat7 patch cable screening is also acting as an aerial because of the lack of appropriate grounding, so that too could be having an effect on things.
With the Cat6 there is no screen, so no ground plane continuity.
The Cat6 patch lead is a better option just because there is is physical isolation of the different elements in your IT setup - there's no continuity from device to switch because it's all transformer coupled.

[jandl100]

Oo-err, missus! That's all very technical. :scratch:

But it's nice to see there's a possible tech explanation for why Brian preferred CAT6 to CAT7.

Well done, Brian - good hearing that man! :thumbsup:

[brian2957]

:) Thanks Jerry , my hearing is one of my ( few ) good points :)

[jandl100]

Well they don't work by magic.

Yes, but the thing is, nothing works by magic.

Sit me in front of a pile of appropriate bits and tell me to make a CD player from them .... I wouldn't have a clue. :(

But that doesn't stop me from enjoying using them and hearing differences between them. :)

So don't be too hard on the laddie for not understanding the technicalities. :grouphug:

[brian2957]

Well they don't work by magic.
They are engineered to do a job, and that job is to carry packet data from one device to another.
With a music server setup let's get one thing straight - your patch cable data network is not carrying any musical signal whatsoever. It is carrying packet data, and as long as that data lands in buffer within a certain time frame it's not even necessary for the packets to arrive in exactly the right sequence - the packets are played back from buffer, and if a packet is missing because it landed outside of its time window you get silence.



The way the cables differ is that they are designed to carry packet data at increasing speeds.
Cat5e is sufficient to carry gigabit transfer in most applications.
Cat6 provides lower crosstalk and improved RFI rejection over Cat5e.
Cat7 installed properly provides the best environment of all, but I will be clear about this, piddling about with Cat7 patch leads is not using Cat7 properly installed.
In a data network none of the cable types carry musical signal - it's all packet data.

Now I'll offer a theory as to why your Cat7 patch lead has an audible effect.
Your server probably has a linear PSU. It's something I'd expect Gary to have done.
Your router does not. It has a cheap 'n' nasty SMPS.
A Cat7 patch cable connects the ground plane of the router to the ground plane of the server, and what you're hearing could well be the result of ground plane cross contamination.
The Cat7 patch cable screening is also acting as an aerial because of the lack of appropriate grounding, so that too could be having an effect on things.
With the Cat6 there is no screen, so no ground plane continuity.
The Cat6 patch lead is a better option just because there is is physical isolation of the different elements in your IT setup - there's no continuity from device to switch because it's all transformer coupled.

Thanks Chris , yes I understand some of what you have written . Gary has in fact fitted 3 linear PSUs to my server I believe . :)

[Gazjam]

Thanks Chris , yes I understand some of what you have written . Gary has in fact fitted 3 linear PSUs to my server I believe . :)

Yup!

[Stratmangler]

Thanks Chris , yes I understand some of what you have written . Gary has in fact fitted 3 linear PSUs to my server I believe . :)


Yup!

Avoid the screened stuff and you'll avoid that ground plane contamination :)

[brian2957]

OK , thanks Chris . I will probably have a listen to both this afternoon and make a decision as to which one I prefer :)

[NRG]

Just want to point out you can get CAT6 STP patch cables....and CAT5e ;) So don't assume all CAT6 are UTP....

[RichB]

It is very audible Richard . Why not try a cheat CAT6 cable and quickly run a cable between your hub and your laptop . I understand that this may be a major undertaking for some people . My hub and my music server are in the same room and so it was relatively easy for me to try :)
If we get the chance I'll discuss this with you further next Saturday . I'm really looking forward to NEBO 6 and to meeting all the guys :)

Mine are in different rooms and I don't fancy drilling a wall to fit one or running a long length of it under the carpet so I'm stuck with WiFi.

Be good to chat on it at NEBO. 6 days and counting. R

[Gazjam]

Can get flat CAT cable Rich, pretty much like a SATA lead...

[brian2957]

Just want to point out you can get CAT6 STP patch cables....and CAT5e ;) So don't assume all CAT6 are UTP....

What does UTP mean Neal . Are you saying that CAT5e is potentially better than CAT6 cable .

Edit . I take it UTP means Unshielded twisted pair .

[NRG]

Yep you got it. One thing though, I think you have got to get over this idea of "better". Like you stated just now and in your earlier post, it could be read as expectation bias....

These are not analogue cables, each cable category is designed to do a job, meet a standard for that 'job' a capability if you like. CAT5 carrying 10/100/1000 Mbps data packets over short domestic distances is just as capable as CAT6 if it meets spec. It is not going to drop packets or cause issues for reliable data transfer. However, if the requirement is to run 10GbE then it is not a case that CAT6a is better than CAT5 it is just that CAT5 is not appropriate/suitable or even designed to carry data at that rate. Does that make sense?

[brian2957]

Yes understood Neal . I will be getting the lads round at some point in the future for a listen to these cables .

[NRG]

Good stuff, meets are good fun!

Going back a little to what Chris said about connecting grounds, I've just noticed my BT home hub 3 has no 'ground' connection on the Ethernet ports but my old BT HH 2 does ....then again an old Thompson router I have does not!

[Stratmangler]

I've had a look at my Virgin Superhub, and it has no ground plane connections. It's one of the Netgear ones.
The two Netgear GS108UK switches in my network do have ground plane connections.
My network and patch leads are all UTP anyway, so the ground plane stuff isn't a problem here.

With regard to Brian's setup - if it's the same router as I have here then the aerial screen on the Cat7 is likely to be picking up RF.

[Jac Hawk]

Guys isn't this conversation a little mute, Spotify Premium still only runs at 320kbps, the easiest sonic upgrade you could make is by switching to Deezer elite it streams flac files at 1411kbps and is lossless CD quality, it is more expensive than Spotify premium, but if sound quality is what you're after, forget buggering around with cables that may or may not increase the sonic performance, just get a higher quality streaming service.

[RichB]

Guys isn't this conversation a little mute, Spotify Premium still only runs at 320kbps, the easiest sonic upgrade you could make is by switching to Deezer elite it streams flac files at 1411kbps and is lossless CD quality, it is more expensive than Spotify premium, but if sound quality is what you're after, forget buggering around with cables that may or may not increase the sonic performance, just get a higher quality streaming service.

I didn't know Deezer elite was higher quality. As it is I use Spotify as I get it bundled in with a mobile contract but I'll give that a look.

Re the wires I think you make a lot of sense here Mike, I can't honestly say I can tell the difference between wired and wireless.

[Jac Hawk]

I'm not sure but how i think my setup works is as follows

Spotify is on my Mac and iPhone, my amp is linked to my network via wifi, my amp and Mac speak together over AirPlay, when i want to stream music to my main system my Mac directs the router to stream the music file direct to the amp, i've tried patch cables, the engineers at work can make whatever i need and on my system i don't hear any real advantage, yes it's a bit more reliable using a hard wire rather than wifi but my router is really reliable, at the end of the day do what you think is best, but as i've said before, your giving yourself a big headache, having to run and hide cable when simply getting a better source will pay bigger dividends

[jandl100]

I moved from Tidal hirez at 1411kbs to Spotify Premium and the difference is bugger all in terms of sound quality, imo. Spotify has a significantly better music catalogue and runs glitch free, unlike Tidal.

[RMutt]

I preferred Tidal, but at £20 a month versus £10 I went back to spotify. How much is deezer elite and can it be streamed via the squeezebox?

[Jac Hawk]

£20 PM don't know it's streaming limitations, best thing to do is check out the website, i only have spotify at the moment, i used to have both when Deezer was part of my phone contract, i found the Deezer library was as big as Spotify, plus the artists not on Spotify tended to be on Deezer and vice versa.

[RMutt]

Thanks Mike. £20 same as Tidal so I will be giving it a miss I suppose.