Speaker cable for 57s

[wee tee cee]

Yup know the black and decker lawn mower cable story.

Just wondered if anyone can give me a steer for cable thats low capacitance and not too pricey.

TQ Black has been ousted between the 57s and tubes by humble VD blue 2.5mm.

Some real world experience greatly received....

[Audio Al]

I use Black rhodium twist with my 57s and 63s

[wee tee cee]

Have some of that plumbed in to my system on battery power supply duty-may well give it a go.
Thanks Al.

[Tarzan]

Yup know the black and decker lawn mower cable story.

Just wondered if anyone can give me a steer for cable thats low capacitance and not too pricey.

TQ Black has been ousted between the 57s and tubes by humble VD blue 2.5mm.

Some real world experience greatly received....

Having heard TQB and Quads- the combo in my book would send a glass eye to sleep- too similar.


However in different systems are world class.:)

[Gordon Steadman]

No idea of the capacitance but the price is right!! This is what I use and it sounds very good to me. At the price, its worth a trial anyway.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270370467142?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Ali Tait]

Something like that would be a good choice I think.

[wee tee cee]

I was looking at Mark Grants site-The VD 6mm hi-fi stuff looks pretty good. Had some old atlas equator cable sitting in a drawer-just copper stuff. It sounded more honest than the TQB.

Finding my feet with the 57s and tubes-really different needs to my previous t amp/driver speaker set ups.

Thanks Gordon...know you are a 57 user-just trying to get some informed opinion.

[wee tee cee]

No idea of the capacitance but the price is right!! This is what I use and it sounds very good to me. At the price, its worth a trial anyway.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270370467142?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITPulled the trigger on this..will let you know how I get on. My impression is that the 57s aint too fussy about cables and may well benefit from lots of good honest copper.

[walpurgis]

I've made a pair of cables up using that stuff. Works OK.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi
If we look at a ESL57 schematic http://www.quadesl.com/pdf/quad_schematic.pdf
we see the input where cable X is connected is a transformer.

Now take a measurement of resistance + to - across a ESL57 input that is turned off
it will typically measure close to 1 ohm, hence lower impedance cables are
likely going to be advantageous to you, if the properties of nominal impedance
are recognized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_impedance

Hence coaxial, or specifically made lowish impedance coaxial designs are likely to be best
as they have constant known nominal impedance

But like a ship without water just discussing cables without consideration of the
amplifier zobel network that assists the amplifier drive a speaker cable but not
the speaker , and discussion of the amplifier proper should be also similarly focussed upon.

For forum members reading this who perhaps do not have ESL57's
there is similarly much to be done with conventional loudspeakers
where a zobel arriving at the speaker terminals, and within the speaker itself
can greatly assist. See post 17
www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/190300-best-place-put-zobel-network-2.html

A study of a Quad 303 schematic arguably the amplifier along with the quad 2
that quad optimised for the ESL57 we see a zobel of 10 ohms and 100n
these are very common values, however the 303 departs by adding an
additional network comprising inductor L100 in parallel with R129 10 ohms of
resistance the coupling capacitor being 2000uf and an additional 2200 ohm resistor
r1 on the speaker side of the capacitor. The interaction (- what a lovely important word)
of the 303 and ESL57 is studied here: http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/57and303/interact.html

But lets go further and look at a Quad 50E http://www.reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6722/quad50ecirb.html
that suggests transformer at the amplifier then driving a transformer at the speaker, where low impedance
cables would really work well and as I see zobels in each half of the transformer
and the overall design of a 50E suggests it was the amplifier Quad put most effort
into for the ESL57.

Aside from transistor based amps, valve amplifiers have most of the attributes needed
by the ESL57 ie an output transformer and output power rising with higher impedance
however all well and good if you can pinpoint where a ESL57', let alone stacked pairs
nominal impedance resides. Hence somewhere between valve and transistor based
designs is where most effort is placed, giving reason to why we see a transistor amp
like the 50e with a output transformer, like earl grey tea with a slice of lemon.

Cheers / Chris

[Barry]

For over 30 years I have used 15m runs of QED79 strand cable between my Quad 57s and various power amplifiers.

These days I use 1m lengths of either:

Van Damme LC-OFC LOUDSPEAKER 268-504-000 2x4mm sq. - TOTAL DEFINITION DIRECTIONAL HI-FI
(loop-resistance 9.2mΩ)
or

Van Damme 268-545-000 BLACK SERIES CONCERT GRADE UPOFC CLASSIC PRO LOUDSPEAKER CABLE 2x4.0mm TWIN-AXIAL
(loop-resistance 9.2mΩ)

(http://www.van-damme.com/25.html)

or
pairs of paralleled QED79 strand cable.
(loop-resistance 16mmΩ/m, loop-inductance 0.33μH/m, capacitance 116pF/m)


Quad 57s aren't particularly fussy about the cable used with them; like all speaker cables the loop-resistance should be low, as should the loop-inductance. Quad 57 speakers have an impedance that is inductive up to about 100Hz, thereafter it becomes capacitative.
There is no especial reason to use coaxial cables; the characteristic impedance of any cable used in the analogue domain is totally irrelevant at audio frequencies. Just stick to sensible 10A or 20A rated flexible mains cable.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

There is no especial reason to use coaxial cables; the characteristic impedance of any cable used in the analogue domain is totally irrelevant at audio frequencies. Just stick to sensible 10A or 20A rated flexible mains cable.

Hi
Cyril Bateman here; http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Speaker_Amp_Interaction.pdf

disagrees with you, and states on page 15 providing measurements
"Clearly as figures 3 through 12 have shown, speaker cables do
comply with established transmission line behaviour.

and on page 4 varied measurements of cables showing how they react with amplifiers
within audible frequencies. and on page 6 measurement of VSWR

Cheers / Chris

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Cyril also reaching conclusion in Wireless and Electronics World
exhaustively measuring every cable he could, that coax 50 ohm
is not only one of the cheapest in price, but also best sounding
interconnects, and was puzzled why anyone would use anything else.

[Gazjam]

Pulled the trigger on this..will let you know how I get on. My impression is that the 57s aint too fussy about cables and may well benefit from lots of good honest copper.

Hoping this stuff does the business for you Tony, look forward to hearing how you get on with it.

[TheMooN]

Having rolled many a cable on 57's I would recommend runs of flat copper, Goertz, Townsend or taking the topology to the max Magnan Signature, all used natch.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Great discussion. I've used VDh 6mm Blue to good effect. My poor old 57's hardly get any use as don't have much room in my cave due to other crap, I really should get them out more often and start listening again.

[DSJR]

Goetz type adds even more capacitance, doesn't it?

[Barry]

Hi
Cyril Bateman here; http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/...nteraction.pdf

disagrees with you, and states on page 15 providing measurements
"Clearly as figures 3 through 12 have shown, speaker cables do
comply with established transmission line behaviour.

and on page 4 varied measurements of cables showing how they react with amplifiers
within audible frequencies. and on page 6 measurement of VSWR

and


Cyril also reaching conclusion in Wireless and Electronics World
exhaustively measuring every cable he could, that coax 50 ohm
is not only one of the cheapest in price, but also best sounding
interconnects, and was puzzled why anyone would use anything else.

I'm aware of Cyril's work and have to say I find it totally irrelevant. He models his loudspeakers using LCR networks, rather than making measurements on the actual devices themselves. He does not say how he measures the GLRC values of the cables under test. All the other "measurements" are actually computer simulations.

Worse than that, he does not say how his chosen 50 ohm coax (I believe it was RG58C/U) is the "best sounding". Calculated graphs and oscillograms on a 'scope are all very well - but unless you can relate that to what you hear, they are in my opinion largely irrelevant.

And again, I say treating any cable as a transmission line is only valid when the length of the cable is greater than the wavelength/(2*pi). So assuming a velocity factor of only 50% (for a worse case scenario) and a highest frequency of say 20kHz, the cables would have to be longer than 1.2Km for transmission line theory to apply.

[DSJR]

50 ohm coax used to not be too capacitive over short runs as an audio interconnectand I remember AVI approving of its use twenty or so years ago. It was cheap to buy and fairly easy to solder (the inner insulation could creep back up the conductor though once soldered up).

I thought I'd posted asking what was wrong with the Van Damme currently used. I mean, if colour is an issue, then Fisual do a nice creamy-white jacketed one and the copper looks to be clean and shiny enough ;)

One speaker cable that seemed to be excellent and very cheap if you know where to get it from is the transparent jacketed multi-stranded fig-8 stuff with a wide red stripe running down one of the conductors. Linn used it (at a very silly markup-price of course) and it came free with the Classik CD-receiver of old I remember. Late Wright era TDL were thinking of marketing it as a speaker cable but I think they folded before this happened, sadly. I've seen similar on fleabay, so maybe worth a punt perhaps?

[wee tee cee]

Many thanks everyone...some great reading and to be honest a bit beyond my technical comprehension.

Plumped for the cable Gordon linked to with some Mark Grant speaker plugs. Quite fancy the 6mm VD Hi-Fi stuff Barry linked to.

I have joined the waiting list for one of Alans (firebottle) Air amps so will need much longer cable runs than I currently have hence the request for advice.
Contacted Alan..he advised that good quality copper cable would be fine-79 strand or similar.

Just from my recent experimentation I have found the VD Blue 2.5mm to really work well with the 57s/kel 84 mono blocks.

Tried TQ Black/blue....Belkin...atlas stuff---the simple VD blue just works really well bringing the 57s alive.

System synergy is centric to this whole game-Its been great getting honest down to earth advice!!!

Tony.

[Gordon Steadman]

Many thanks everyone...some great reading and to be honest a bit beyond my technical comprehension.

Plumped for the cable Gordon linked to with some Mark Grant speaker plugs. Quite fancy the 6mm VD Hi-Fi stuff Barry linked to.

I have joined the waiting list for one of Alans (firebottle) Air amps so will need much longer cable runs than I currently have hence the request for advice.
Contacted Alan..he advised that good quality copper cable would be fine-79 strand or similar.

Just from my recent experimentation I have found the VD Blue 2.5mm to really work well with the 57s/kel 84 mono blocks.

Tried TQ Black/blue....Belkin...atlas stuff---the simple VD blue just works really well bringing the 57s alive.

System synergy is centric to this whole game-Its been great getting honest down to earth advice!!!

Tony.

When Alan and Kevin visited the other week, the cable you have just bought was used with the 57s and my old bitsas. As I said elsewhere, for me, the sound of the old bangers and Alan's new amp was the best of the weekend. Hopefully, it will suit the rest of your system too.

[Gordon Steadman]

I'm sure you are aware of the possible problems with the Quad inputs being so close together. This cable is quite thick and I had a short as I was using some big, screw on plugs. One got twisted and the two were touching. I had the 303 on at the time and for the first time, it got a bit hot.

I now use the solder on type. So long as there is plenty of insulation, as with these or the plastic type, you will be fine. Should use shrink wrap really but as it's me, insulation tape does the job:rolleyes:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5656/22515050700_5b24458676_z.jpg

[wee tee cee]

thanks for the heads up...

[Ammonite Audio]

I use an old forum favourite - the Belkin PureAV speaker cables that cost the grand sum of £12 for a 10ft pair. Nice beryllium copper Z-plugs with plenty of insulation to eliminate the risk of shorting at the speaker ends, as Gordon mentions above. Shame they weren't available in longer lengths! Well worth seeking them out, since they do seem to appear on eBay every so often. They do need time to 'run in' though - at first they sounded pretty awful, but soon blossomed into real performers.

[wee tee cee]

Hugo,
I have a set of the Belkins, they dont seem too great a match in my current set up-the simple copper VD stuff is the front runner so far.

[Gazjam]

Tony,
Have some "curveball" stuff that might be worth a try.
Forum favourite over on Wigwam a few years ago.
Great quality copper, no nonsense American cable.

Bring it over next time Brian and I are over, let you try it if you want.

[Ammonite Audio]

Hugo,
I have a set of the Belkins, they dont seem too great a match in my current set up-the simple copper VD stuff is the front runner so far.

Ah, that just goes to prove that we are all different! I spent rather more on VD speaker cables than on the Belkins, and found the VD to sound very 'ordinary' in comparison.

[wee tee cee]

The cable Gordon linked to arrived yesterday along with the Mark grant speaker plugs. Made them up last night the copper just fits in the plugs with the odd wee straggler getting trimmed. Didn't bother with solder as I don't want to mix metals.

Got them plumbed in this morning-they work really well with the 57s. At just over £20 all in Im delighted.

Many thanks folks.

[lurcher]

Hi
If we look at a ESL57 schematic http://www.quadesl.com/pdf/quad_schematic.pdf
we see the input where cable X is connected is a transformer.

Now take a measurement of resistance + to - across a ESL57 input that is turned off
it will typically measure close to 1 ohm, hence lower impedance cables are
likely going to be advantageous to you, if the properties of nominal impedance
are recognized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_impedance


I just need to point out that this is absolutely wrong. The DC resistance of the transformer has bugger all to do with anything. The load the speaker presents will be slightly influenced by the inductance and capacitance of the transformer primary, but given its a step up transformer, the principle property will be that of the bloody big capacitor connected across its secondary (ie the electrostatic speaker) multiplied by the step up ratio of the input transformer.

The above is wrong in the same way as measuring the DC resistance of your power amplifier mains inlet, seeing its maybe 2 ohms, and deciding that means that he amplifier will pull 120 amp from the mains supply (240/2).

A typical electrostatic presents a capacitive load (see above) to the amplifier, so worrying about low capacitance cables is not going to get you far, as the capacitance of the speaker will be far higher than just about any cable you use.

[Barry]

I just need to point out that this is absolutely wrong. The DC resistance of the transformer has bugger all to do with anything. The load the speaker presents will be slightly influenced by the inductance and capacitance of the transformer primary, but given its a step up transformer, the principle property will be that of the bloody big capacitor connected across its secondary (ie the electrostatic speaker) multiplied by the step up ratio of the input transformer.

The above is wrong in the same way as measuring the DC resistance of your power amplifier mains inlet, seeing its maybe 2 ohms, and deciding that means that he amplifier will pull 120 amp from the mains supply (240/2).

A typical electrostatic presents a capacitive load (see above) to the amplifier, so worrying about low capacitance cables is not going to get you far, as the capacitance of the speaker will be far higher than just about any cable you use.

Good post Nick. I agree with everything you say.

The reactance of the Quad 57 speaker is inductive up to about 100Hz (due to the transformer), thereafter the reactance is capacitative, and may be modeled as a 2uF capacitor. The step-up ratio of the audio transformer is 110:1, so one can estimate the actual capacitance of the speaker.

Quad 57s are not at all fussy when it comes to speaker cable. It usually recommended the loop resistance of any speaker cable used be low (< 5% of the nominal speaker impedance), so that the overall damping factor of the amplifier is not reduced too much. However because the diaphragms of the Quad ESLs have a very low mass and hence low inertia, they don't need much damping: the output impedance of the Quad 303 is ~ 0.1 Ohm; so any sensible cable can be used.

[Reffc]

I just need to point out that this is absolutely wrong. The DC resistance of the transformer has bugger all to do with anything. The load the speaker presents will be slightly influenced by the inductance and capacitance of the transformer primary, but given its a step up transformer, the principle property will be that of the bloody big capacitor connected across its secondary (ie the electrostatic speaker) multiplied by the step up ratio of the input transformer.

The above is wrong in the same way as measuring the DC resistance of your power amplifier mains inlet, seeing its maybe 2 ohms, and deciding that means that he amplifier will pull 120 amp from the mains supply (240/2).

A typical electrostatic presents a capacitive load (see above) to the amplifier, so worrying about low capacitance cables is not going to get you far, as the capacitance of the speaker will be far higher than just about any cable you use.

:D

Spot on Nick.

Barry's also correct that at domestic lengths and at audio frequencies, speaker cables absolutely DO NOT behave like transmission lines. Also, it is a little simplistic to try and represent a typical loudspeaker load using simple LCR models, much better to measure the actual speaker's load than try and guesstimate it although some models have been used in the past to try and establish a specific cable's effects on the driving amplifier with some success.

There's a lot of myth and rot talked about loudspeaker cables when what usually matters most is keeping loop resistance low. The nature of some driving amplifiers may require certain cable properties (ie limits on total capacitance) but for the most part, keeping loop resistance low is the priority. As for the need to introduce zobels at the ends of speaker runs... again, just not a requirement but usually can do little harm if the zobel has been correctly designed. Zobels only usually become necessary when the effects of the cable load at certain frequencies can have a destabilising effct on the driving amplifier, so is as much amplifier (design) related as cable related.

Characteristic cable impedance is only ever a consideration when the source impedance, cable impedance and load impedance are all matched. As this is rarely, if ever the case where loudspeakers are concerned, then it is irrelevant since a loudspeaker presents a varying load with frequency. Characteristic impedance Zo = Sqr Root (L/C) where L = inductance and C = capacitance. It is a constant, determined for a specific frequency by the cable's geometry, but what some conveniently forget is that Zo varies with frequency! At DC, Zo for all speaker cables is practically infinite and the rated cable impedance is not met until the frequency is WAY above audio frequencies. So Zo is largely unimportant where audio cables are concerned and using coax cables for speakers is equally without any real benefit. If the aim is to achieve low characteristic impedance, this really requires relatively low inductance and relatively high capacitance which can cause instability in the output stages of amplifiers, so the whole Zo thing is a red herring where loudspeaker cables are concerned and you shouldn't really concern yourselves with it. It is widely misunderstood and should not be confused with cable DC or loop resistance.

All this aside, Barry's summary is the one to remember...just use cable that gives you low loop resistance. My advice for most speaker applications would be to avoid fancy high capacitance geometries, typified by multi-braided designs, twin flat (high capacitance) designs and similar , but for ESLs capacitance of the cable is largely irrelevant.

[daytona600]

Esl speakers need a low capacitance cable & amps with plenty of voltage to drive them
also as Impedance can drop well below 2ohms ( or even sub 1ohm ) @ high frequency 10-20khz
amps that are stable under a ohm ideal , or ESL Amps designed for the task
Mogami Studio is excellent choice for a couple of quid per metre , then try more expensive cables if you have the budget

http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/54-cables-white-paper

[wee tee cee]

Great article Scott. May have a look at inexpensive co-ax to have a bit of a play.

[lurcher]

Esl speakers need a low capacitance cable & amps with plenty of voltage to drive them
also as Impedance can drop well below 2ohms ( or even sub 1ohm ) @ high frequency 10-20khz
amps that are stable under a ohm ideal , or ESL Amps designed for the task
Mogami Studio is excellent choice for a couple of quid per metre , then try more expensive cables if you have the budget

http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/54-cables-white-paper

The reason the impedance drops with frequency and they need voltage not current is because they are a capacitive load. If they look like a 2uf cap, then no speaker cable this side of the national grid will have capacitance that gets within 1% of that (unless its got some magic network added to it).