PDA

View Full Version : Fantastic (upgrade-tweak)for spindle



StanC
05-10-2009, 20:22
Hello fellow Techies,
I'm new here and this is my first post.I've been following this forum for about a year now with much admiration for all your passion and enthusiasm for the hobby.
I want to share a significant upgrade with the community, which I learned from Kevin of KAB.
The tweak involves damping the spindle and coupling the thrust plate to the plinth. This is done by using a small cube of collapseable wax which is inserted between thrust plate and plinth. The results are fantastic! Images float farther out of the speakers, the sound is more relaxed without any loss of dynamics. I honestly had to check to see if the speed was correct.
Kab feels the stock bearing is fine by evidence of its test of time. I'm sure there will be a great new bearing developed soon , but for now this is a no brainer must do.
Kevin says this wax can be found at a graffic arts store. He thinks it's called stationers wax. Brilliant!

Stan

Marco
05-10-2009, 20:30
Hi Stan,

Welcome to AOS! Where are you from? :)

Thanks for sharing the tweak. I can't comment on its efficacy as I haven't tried it. If Kevin recommends it though it must be worth doing.

It'll be interesting to hear what Dave Cawley thinks - particularly as he has a bearing mod all of his own which I believe is imminent for release :smoking:

Marco.

jonners
05-10-2009, 21:00
Hi Stan. Any chance of some pics of this tweak? Could you describe it in more detail?

DaveK
05-10-2009, 21:19
Wonder if a little blob of BluTac would serve the same purpose? - less messy, less likely to break up into the bowels of the Techie and much easier to put in and take out.
Easy to try.
Cheers,

jonners
05-10-2009, 21:44
Wax is slippery, BluTac sticky - not a good idea I think :scratch:

StanC
05-10-2009, 23:59
Hi guys,
thank you Marco. I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Sorry no pictures, should have taken some. What I meant to say is that the wax is a compressible type. I used an approximately 1 by1/4 inch square in the well, finger seated it and alternately screwed down.
Kab will have some announcement of this soon.

Stan

Dave Cawley
06-10-2009, 07:27
I think this is likely to damp the bearing and blu tack would be probably better?

Stan, have you performed the modification yourself ? and exactly what material did you use ? and where did you get that material from ?

Regards

Dave

Ammonite Acoustics
06-10-2009, 08:33
This sounds perfectly logical to me, and I would not be surprised if Dave Cawley has already been looking at ways of securing the bearing assembly more firmly to the alloy chassis.

In my professional world, we used to use beeswax for securing accelerometers to equipment for vibration measurements. Beeswax has a very benign resonant characteristic, unlike blu-tak, adhesive tape and that sort of thing which act as the spring in a good-old-fashioned mass-spring system. I have a block of beeswax somewhere and feel a bit of an experiment coming on! It will make the Techy smell nice, if nothing else!

DaveK
06-10-2009, 08:45
Wax is slippery, BluTac sticky - not a good idea I think :scratch:

Hi John,
You may well be right - I assumed (always dangerous :) ) that both bits rotated so 'sticky' would not be a problem - silly me!!! :doh: .
Cheers,

jonners
06-10-2009, 09:02
Hi Dave

From reading Stan's second post I would conclude that the wax is not in contact with any moving parts (is that correct Stan?), in which case BluTac would do no harm. However Shuggies beeswax idea sounds convincing and I've got some, but maybe I'll let him try it first...:eyebrows:

DaveK
06-10-2009, 09:10
Hi Dave

From reading Stan's second post I would conclude that the wax is not in contact with any moving parts (is that correct Stan?), in which case BluTac would do no harm. However Shuggies beeswax idea sounds convincing and I've got some, but maybe I'll let him try it first...:eyebrows:

Hi John,
Keep us posted - I'm sure you will - this is the sort of upgrade I would be interested in (and it's readily reversible if it don't work :lol: ).
Cheers,
Note for Marco - I'll beat that Ma character at his own game yet! :lol: .

MartinG
06-10-2009, 13:22
I'm new here and this is my first post.I've been following this forum for about
Kevin says this wax can be found at a graffic arts store. He thinks it's called stationers wax. Brilliant!

Stan

Is that the same as sealing wax? I think I might have some around here somewhere. I'd like to give it a try.

StanC
06-10-2009, 18:01
Hi guys,
the wax is a type originally used by graphic artist as a lay up wax.It's pretty soft and pliable at room temp.
I learned about this from Kevin @ KAB. He sent me a URL, website , but they wanted $15.00 just to ship an $8.00 item. So Kevin was kind enough to send me some of his stock for the postage cost.

Stan

StanC
06-10-2009, 18:24
Jonners,
yes that is correct, the wax does not touch any moving part.

Stan

StanC
06-10-2009, 20:04
Hi guys,
this is the amount I used.
Stan

Magna Audio
06-10-2009, 22:24
So, any pics of it applied? From the descriptions above I'm still not exactly sure where you are waxing?

The Grand Wazoo
06-10-2009, 22:40
So, any pics of it applied? From the descriptions above I'm still not exactly sure where you are waxing?

Why don't you give it a Brazilian?

StanC
06-10-2009, 22:42
Steve,
If you remove the spindle assembly, you'll find the thrust plate is actually floating. The wax will fill the void between thrust plate and plinth.

Stan

Dave Cawley
06-10-2009, 23:31
floating

What? not secured at all!

Dave

Will
06-10-2009, 23:58
Will try a film of bluetak on a 401 bearing-plate a bit more wont harm.

Magna Audio
07-10-2009, 09:41
Steve,
If you remove the spindle assembly, you'll find the thrust plate is actually floating. The wax will fill the void between thrust plate and plinth.

Stan

Thanks - will investigate. Nice deck to work on as all can be done from above I assume?

Brazilian - nah, more like a B,C & S wax:) Ouch!

Magna Audio
07-10-2009, 10:36
Found these pics of the bearing

http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/45350/2541977000071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2541977000071997495sXRCqi)

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/32573/2785756840071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2785756840071997495ILYFmW)

http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/32278/2792831450071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2792831450071997495SFHzMC)
Arrow is apparently where you add oil

Any pointers from these?

chris@panteg
07-10-2009, 11:30
According to my manual ' you add oil by lifting the top of the bearing adding oil in the gap and turning at the same time ?

Nigel
07-10-2009, 18:34
So you unscrew the bearing housing & remove the bearing, then add a blob of bluetak & replace the bearing?

StanC
07-10-2009, 18:57
Nigel'
that's the idea. Give it a go and report back.
Stan

Ammonite Acoustics
07-10-2009, 20:00
I poured some molten beeswax into the bearing well of my Techy, and when it was about to harden, pressed the bearing firmly into place before securing as normal. A quick listen is not enough to tell if there's anything to this tweak, so I shall have to sift through a load of favourite LPs to ascertain if it's worth the effort. Has anyone experienced an immediate "Night and Day" improvement after doing this?

Magna Audio
07-10-2009, 21:22
Found this piccy that helped understand what to remove...

http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/46186/2449813130071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2449813130071997495YhGDuw)

Don't have any wax at home (Edam wrappers would work but would make the deck cheesy!), so tried the Blutak.

Am only able to listen on the Stax at the moment so can't compare with tubes and Tannoy's...

I see what was meant by the thrust plate floats in as much as the base of it is not connected with the plinth. However the thrust part of the bearing is well connected by 3 solid cast aluminium posts and and well attached when clamped in place by the motor unit / 3 bolts are screwed down.
The only soundness of engineering principle I can see on this one is that the wax / tak dampens vibrations/rumble in / transmitted to the thrust plate?
For them to be harmful they would have to transmit up the spindle via the platter to the needle, where audible.
Stranger things have happened in the land TT's and been audible I suppose.

Jury's out on that one for me until I've heard it back to back with/without on the speakers.

Magna Audio
08-10-2009, 22:24
Right, had a serious listen avec Blutak.
Interesting and noticeable change to the sound - something I was perhaps a little sceptical about on paper...
It brings the whole presentation forward. There's high boogie factor in there but it is a bit too much somehow on certain records - it's not at all relaxed but then neither are some a live bands squeezed into the living room.
I don't really need more bass (with Tannoy Berkeley's) either.
Will try bees wax or other wax if I can get hold of it. Perhaps it is 'just' right.
It's def. an experiment to get right sort of thing.

StanC
09-10-2009, 07:30
Hi Steve,
sounds like a move in the right direction to me. You can tame the more.
It's mid night here and am playing some records i got from a thrift store today. Loving it.
BTW, where can I get the counterweight like yours.

Stan

Magna Audio
09-10-2009, 09:33
Oh that was not my SL-1210 in that pic with the brass counterweight. Mine has a hole where the Xformer.
I am using a PL-71 arm.
I have made a similar weight for my Daughters (er, correction my Rega RB250 on Rega deck) she uses. Have Southbend lathe and brass, will turn;)

yeah reckon some tuning on the damping/coupling material will be of benefit - could use an electrically controlled semi viscous wax that you can change the properties of from the remote to suit the material you are listening to - perhaps a bridge to far.

Magna Audio
10-10-2009, 20:20
Tried some wax - fairly soft / pliable with fingers - Did not like it as much as the
Blutak! Put the Blutak back in and am getting used to it...

StanC
12-10-2009, 05:45
Hello all,
just wondering if anyone else has investigated this easy15 minute experiment? I feel it's a worthwhile try. no drawbacks that I can detect. all win win for me.

Thanks. Stan

jonners
13-10-2009, 17:28
Hello Stan

I tried your tweak today, using Blutack applied on all the outer surfaces of the bearing housing, away from any moving parts.
The sound seems just slightly warmer, as if a touch of treble glare has been removed. It's a fairly subtle change - I may keep it for a while and then listen again with the damping removed.

StanC
13-10-2009, 18:08
Hi Jonners,
yes this is where I also am noticing the best area of improvement. The definition in the highs were so much clearer, I had to check for speed correction. Good to hear it ,Jonners. Enjoy.

Stan

jonners
13-10-2009, 19:17
My reaction was not to check the speed, but to turn the volume up a notch. ;)

Magna Audio
15-10-2009, 20:20
Been playing around with this some more.
There is definitely an optimum quantity of the blu stuff needed. Settled on about an 8mm ball placed in the plinth dish and tightened down.
Filling the whole dish and then bearing in was over quite frankly overpowering in my system.

jonners
15-10-2009, 21:55
If anyone is thinking of trying this but is unsure how to get at the bearing assembly, taking a look at this should help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLOjUADMNlE&feature=channel

Magna Audio
15-10-2009, 22:05
If anyone is thinking of trying this but is unsure how to get at the bearing assembly, taking a look at this should help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLOjUADMNlE&feature=channel

Yikes - Anti static procedure? Would not want that guy 'servicing' my TT.

jonners
15-10-2009, 22:43
Yikes - Anti static procedure? Would not want that guy 'servicing' my TT.

I'm quite happy for the moderator to remove my post if it is thought to show an unsafe or unwise procedure.

Magna Audio
15-10-2009, 22:51
Sorry over reacted a bit - I have a thing about ESP from my Telecom exchange commissioning / testing days.
Apart from that it was informative as to what to remove to get at the bearing.