Help - moved Harbeths to a bigger room and now they are a bit 'lost'

[andybee33]

Hi folks,

Hope you are all well.

I have a simple 'upstairs' system consisting of a Cyrus Streamline v2 and some Harbeth P3ES2 speakers, with Atlas Hyper 2 speaker cable. I've just had to move it from a smaller room (12 x 8), where it sounded amazing, to a larger one (18 x 18 plus an 'l shaped bit') and now it sounds completely lost. Great as the speakers are, I just don't think they move enough air to fill the room up.

I'm guessing that the only thing I can do to fix this is to try for some larger speakers. For the use this system gets, I can't really justify the £2.5k plus for larger Harbeths, so I wondered if anyone had some ideas for bigger speakers with that sort of sound? I tried a pair of Roksan TR5s with the Cyrus and they sounded pretty good but, even then, I'm not sure they were quite enough for the size of room. I'd ideally like standmounts for aesthetic reasons.

Suggestions for replacements for the Harbeths (which will be appearing for sale on here shortly I guess) very welcome.

Finally, the Streamline is only 30w/channel. Is this likely to be an issue in a room, of this size? I do like a bit of volume sometimes :)

Cheers,

Andy

[Rothchild]

Square rooms are worse for sound and 18x18 puts a number of nodes in the lower mid (~150-250Hz) http://amroc.andymel.eu/

Before reaching for you wallet for new speakers it might be worth experimenting with speaker and listening position / placement (if you can)

[andybee33]

Square rooms are worse for sound and 18x18 puts a number of nodes in the lower mid (~150-250Hz) http://amroc.andymel.eu/

Before reaching for you wallet for new speakers it might be worth experimenting with speaker and listening position / placement (if you can)

Thanks Marc - that's an interesting site. Could get expensive though, resizing the rooms in the house to get the 'best' dimensions. :) I have fairly little flexibility regarding speaker positioning in the new room (a couple of feet left/right per speaker and maybe 2 feet back/forth), however I'll give it a try. My gut instinct is that, while this might well help, they P3s are maybe a just too small for the room. I've tried them as 'near field' monitors on a big desk and they are incredible. I reckon that given their pint-sized proportions though, I might just be asking too much from 'em.

Thanks, Andy

[Macca]

If you really want to fill the room then you could consider adding a subwoofer (or 2). I know quite a few folk use a sub or subs with little Harbeths.

[Tarzan]

If you really want to fill the room then you could consider adding a subwoofer (or 2). I know quite a few folk use a sub or subs with little Harbeths.

Good idea, could you listen nearfield in your new room?

[petrat]

If you really want to fill the room then you could consider adding a subwoofer (or 2). I know quite a few folk use a sub or subs with little Harbeths.

Very much this!
I have a REL T9 which completely transforms the P3ESR's sound ... not just at the low end, but throughout, especially soundstaging. Try to borrow one ... if you were closer, I'd lend you mine.

[Elephantears]

A sub might help but the P3s still have small drivers and you don't get the same body and richness in the midrange as the larger Harbeths. I would try and find a pair of Compact 7s, which are the most similar in character to P3s, and are good value second hand if you can find them. However it is worth noting that your P3s are very inefficient and 30W is the bare minimum amplifier power for these speakers. A larger room will expose this limitation.

[Eisener Bart]

Squire room - death for LF band. It's from my experience.

[andybee33]

Hi folks,

Thanks for this - I hadn't actually considered a sub! I guess I'm a bit old fashioned and consider them an AV thing :) However, I have an inexpensive Yamaha one that goes with my Soundbar and I guess I could try this first to get a general idea.

I'm guessing that, if a sub looks promising, I'll need to get a 'proper' one though. Are there any rules for matching subs to speakers.

Good point about the sensitivity of the Harbeths. I'm actually considering adding a Cyrus X Power to the setup anyway (or shuffling some other hardware around), so I'll try the Harbeths with a punchier amp (like my Kandy K2) when I try the subs.

Whoever said that the P3 has very little drivers though is absolutely right. :)

Cheers,
Andy

[fatmarley]

The Bk Subs are quite popular and very good value for money (I don't think you could build them yourself any cheaper). Just make sure you choose a sealed sub, they're better for music.

If you can't sit nearfield then some acoustic panels on the walls should help to give a more direct sound.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Yes try moving the speakers, or put them back in the other room.

Changing amplification or speakers for your main room will need assessment of
what works best. Certain types of speakers will be better than others, for instance
I cannot imagine any room where a set of Klipssh La Scala would not sound good,
.. er perhaps the bathroom is less than ideal :)

The La Scala is unique in not needing powerful amplification
http://www.klipsch.com/la-scala-ii-floorstanding-speaker

As you move to other higher power & often larger speakers, some of the virtues of smaller cabinet size
also reduce. There is something very right about small speakers on stands positioned well in a room.



Cheers / Chris

[Audio Advent]

How big is your L shaped bit? Could you make a more cosy listening area out of that or are you using them for tv duties too?

"Lost" sounds to me as if you're getting a lot of room reflections and resonances adding to the sound, perhaps because you're further away than before so you're getting less of the direct sound. Or yes maybe they're not driving the air so well in the bass. Sometimes though it can be a matter of placement and your listening position - there are areas in a room where bass frequencies cancel and others where they are re-inforced. If you sit in a re-enforcement area you'll hear more and also where the speakers are placed will effect those areas too.

[andybee33]

How big is your L shaped bit? Could you make a more cosy listening area out of that or are you using them for tv duties too?

"Lost" sounds to me as if you're getting a lot of room reflections and resonances adding to the sound, perhaps because you're further away than before so you're getting less of the direct sound. Or yes maybe they're not driving the air so well in the bass. Sometimes though it can be a matter of placement and your listening position - there are areas in a room where bass frequencies cancel and others where they are re-inforced. If you sit in a re-enforcement area you'll hear more and also where the speakers are placed will effect those areas too.

Sadly the 'L' bit is more of a kind of entrance passage to the room - with a chest of drawers in it, so it would be a VERY cosy listening area!! I've tried moving around the room while listening and there are definitely some areas that are better than others - but the general truth I think is that there isn't enough sound to go around. I've decided just to bite the bullet and get some bigger speakers (and probably a bigger amp to drive them). I can't quite run to 'big' Harbeths (Super HL5s etc) so any suggestions as to something that would deliver that nice 'not shoving the sound up your nose' sound in a large standmount or small-ish floorstander would be appreciated. Harbeths will be appearing for sale imminently!

[Macca]

The IMFs I am using at the moment remind me a bit of Harbeths. A very easy listen but everything is there nonetheless. They don't come up every day but something broadly along those lines might suit, like some 1980s Kefs maybe?

[Rothchild]

I was going to suggest PMC (because of their transmission line design, like Macca's IMFs) which I find tends to give a smoother low end roll off than reflex ported cabs.

If you have lots of room maybe you could consider some big sealed boxes?

[andybee33]

Thanks for the suggestions chaps. The PMCs are an interesting idea. I've never heard IMF's but I remember a few KEFs from the 80s and, yes, that would be the sort of thing. While looking around eBay for inspiration, I found some Spendor A6s. It's not a model I've heard but I wonder if they might be work a punt if the price is right?

[DSJR]

Domestic PMC's are not favourites of mine in all honesty - imo!

Transmission line speakers don't give owt for nowt. Any gains very low down are paid for with phase issues at mid bass frequencies. IMF had ways round it, although sensitivity could suffer as a result, but the compromises worked for them while bigger amps ruled the day until Naim's weedy un-damped efforts all but took over in the UK market in the late 70's..

If new bigger Harbeths are too costly (they've gone up in price a lot recently), but the idea of natural timbres appeals in a bigger speaker, you'd do a lot worse then some KEF Concerto's (1970's three way version) on low stands. Mids and tweeters are now available again too and Wilmslow (and possibly Falcon, who make the new drivers), may be able to supply revamped crossovers for these. The R104ab (must be the ab's though) remain a firm favourite with me and they used to be sleepers, so not silly money as Spendor BC1's and their Rogers competitors now are.

You know, I've been enjoying my IMF's so much (and I think macca likes his TLS50's too, which share the same mid driver I think), why not look out for some Super Compacts? I know struth here was selling his refurbed ones, but originals do come up from time to time and these will have a bigger sound than P3ESR's. The balance won't be quite as seamless, but the overall clarity should be fine as long as they're not shoved against a wall or put in corners...

Hope these jottings are on the right track..

Modern Spendors are livelier than before and definitely not as sweet or seamless as modern Harbeths I've found, but with no direct comparison, the A6 should be quite good I think and lot more solid and better finished than the bland styling and pics portray imo.

[walpurgis]

The Concerto can sound pretty good. Later model the better. Avoid early ones with foam surrounds on the B139 and the recessed dome T27, put modern terminals on and recap the crossover and it's a good speaker. Still a sleeper too. It's a lot of solid sounding speaker for the £100 to £150 a tidy pair can be got for.

I think I'd sooner use the 104AB than the BC1 to be honest. It's a bit more seamless through the mid/treble transition (even if the ABR does give a 'rubbery' character to the bass).

[DSJR]

With a CD source and Quad style amp, the bass is fine, but I do agree if you use a wide open amp and vinyl of the springy type ;)


Now, to get Falcon to re-engineer the KEF B200 driver.

[andybee33]

Thanks chaps - this is all useful stuff. Since yesterday, I've been doing a bit of repurposing and shopping. I've given up on the Streaming to the upstairs Hifi (so the Steamline is being retired) as, in other news, I was having issues with getting a reliable network connection. I've therefore got out an old but decent sounding Arcam CD72 and I bought a nearly new Roksan K2 Power Amp on ebay for £350 (I have one in my main system and totally love them). I then purchased a Tisbury Audio Mini passive preamp (they are sooo cute). So, we now have a single source, simple signal path and plenty of power. Just need the speakers! In the future I'd maybe look to retire the Arcam and use something like a Quad 99 CD (which has a preamp of its own).

Must admit, I like the idea of a pair of Super Compacts. One day though, I'll be looking to get some larger Harbeths, funds permitting.

[Elephantears]

If you sell the P3s and buy the M30s that are currently on here second hand, you wouldn't be losing much, you'd stay with Harbeths and have speakers much more capable of filling a large room. If you want to maintain the virtues of the Harbeths at a reasonable cost, the only other option I can see is a pair of ESL 63s, which will achieve even greater tonal naturalism in the midrange, but limit your sweet spot and potentiallly dominate your room.