View Full Version : Are CDs dead?
cloth-ears
17-10-2015, 16:44
As an oldie (I started playing music in the early 60’s) I am reluctant to change, a bit of a Luddite.
That was until my son gave me a DacMagic Plus. Over the past week I have managed to rip my CD collection to my laptop. Almost 200 CD’s are now invisible, the space saving is a joy to the wife. And as to the sound quality, that is what was most surprising. At worst it sounds as good as my Roksan CD player but in most cases even better.
Not sure how a cheap and cheerful little black box like the DacMagic can beat my trusty CD player but it does.
I ripped them as Wav lossless files so I should be future proof. Now I don’t have to search for a CD or individual track, they are instantly accessible.
So, is this the end of CDs? It is for me.
Bob,
I dived into streaming media in 2008 with the Logitech Squeezebox 3, then a SB touch with various external DACs and haven't looked back since. My CDs are legacy source only, and although I still buy CDs, I just rip them and then they are put away.
It's been a hugely positive development for me, and I listen to a much wider range of music than I used to when I had racks and racks of CDs. I think I am losing nothing to CD-based playback in sound quality, and it is reassuring that my library is backed up in multiple places for safety - CDs do get damaged and lost.
Regards,
Alex
cloth-ears
17-10-2015, 17:02
Hi Alex, now you said "backup" I suppose I really should backup my laptop. It would be very bad indeed to lose all my music, especially since I have decided to give my CD collection to the local church for their next jumble sale
Indubitably:eyebrows: and at least 2 copies just in case...leave one with a friend in case of fire/theft etc
cloth-ears
17-10-2015, 17:13
Indubitably:eyebrows: and at least 2 copies just in case...leave one with a friend in case of fire/theft etc
Excellent point
Audio Al
17-10-2015, 17:36
I had a close look at some of my CD's , No pulse so yes mine are dead :)
I lost 70GB worth of music files when an auxiliary hard drive was blown up by a bad caddy/enclosure :( I was able to duplicate much of it from old DVD and CD-R's I had, but I was furious I hadn't backed it up further.
Keep the bloody CD's and remember, there are many places where you can buy old stock discs for a very few quid - our local Poundland has a fairly good choice for a quid each.
Pieoftheday
17-10-2015, 17:49
So, is this the end of CD’s? It is for me[/QUOTE]
Nope:)
awkwardbydesign
17-10-2015, 23:36
You could join in with this thread. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40732-What-is-the-future-for-CDs
As an oldie (I started playing music in the early 60’s) I am reluctant to change, a bit of a Luddite.
That was until my son gave me a DacMagic Plus. Over the past week I have managed to rip my CD collection to my laptop. Almost 200 CD’s are now invisible, the space saving is a joy to the wife. And as to the sound quality, that is what was most surprising. At worst it sounds as good as my Roksan CD player but in most cases even better.
Not sure how a cheap and cheerful little black box like the DacMagic can beat my trusty CD player but it does.
I ripped them as Wav lossless files so I should be future proof. Now I don’t have to search for a CD or individual track, they are instantly accessible.
So, is this the end of CDs? It is for me.
You might well think so an it might be so. However, that's what I thought when i got in to the ripping malarkey quite some time ago (around 2007). Undoubtedly the conveniene and easy searching of your music collection is attractive. However a couple of years ago I experimented and found that a CD transport playing in to a DAC beat (SQ wise) a FLAC file playing in to the same DAC. Now, before the herd say I've got something set up wrong and no it can't, well it just did. On top of that I realised that the lack of physical media somehow distanced me from engagement with the music. For me, selecting a CD, reading the booklet or whaetver, and putting it is the machine is part of the enjoyment. Others may well differ. I have over 1200 albums ripped to a hard drive, but most of my listening is from the physical CD from a 400+ CD collection in the lounge.
Oh, btw, if you give your CDs away then you should know that if you continue to listen to that music then you are breaking the law. It may be a daft law (depends on your view on these things) and it is almost ceratin that you would never be caught, but you are breaking the law.
StanleyB
18-10-2015, 06:36
The common reason many give why a CDP or TT have been or are falling out of fashion is convenience. That's the same thing they said about owning a car when there is public transport. Even the take away has replaced cooking for many people. Next thing you know it will be more convenient for many to visit an adult site instead of having a real flesh and blood partner.
Stan,
Surely there is nothing wrong with convenience as an attribute. For me, ripping and using a NAS/steamer is just a logical application of those technologies to serve my purpose. People will argue about the SQ vs. CD but for me the point is moot.. If current playback implementations are inadequate them they will improve, and my library will benefit just as improvements to CD players over the years ha e made my old CDs sound better.
Cds are just a digital carrier format, and IMO not inherently valuable/collectable. II now prefer others away from home where I can't stream. The fact that I can take a very large chunk of my library with me on a digital player or even USB pen drive means that o really have no use for CDs nowadays. We shouldn't be too nostalgic about them... They've had a very good run but the world has moved on I think.
For me I think I always will want to own my music, so I cannot foesee a day when I would move totally to aa Spotify or tidal type subscription model.
Regards,
Alex
convenience is fine as a feature I guess - it's just that I don't find CD any more convenient than vinyl.
Haselsh1
18-10-2015, 09:34
Why on Earth would CD's be dead...? Is vinyl dead yet...?
convenience is fine as a feature I guess - it's just that I don't find CD any more convenient than vinyl.
You don't have to get up and turn the record over half way through with a CD. That is quite handy if the music has lulled you into a medatitive state. Or if you are a few sheets to the wind. But otherwise it is much of a muchness, I agree.
However I don't see why streaming is any more convenient. I was lookign for soemthing to paly the other day, rooting through a big pile of CDs, and I thought to myself 'how is this any different from looking at a computer screen and making my choice that way?'
I don't buy the 'free up space' thing either. Even a large collection of CDs don't take up enough space to be an inconvenience in any normal house or flat. Plus I bet if you went to these folk's houses there would be no CDs on display but plenty of other pointless clutter like ornaments, photographs and momentos.
Easier for 'music on the move' - well I get that but I personally don't feel the need to cart music round with me wherever I go.
convenience is fine as a feature I guess - it's just that I don't find CD any more convenient than vinyl.
I don't need an RCM for my CD collection
I don't need to check/wipe dust of my CDs at every playing
I can copy my CDs to digital in a fraction of the time required for vinyl transfer
I don't need a dedicated phono stage for CD playback
I can store (at least) 3 times the number of CD albums in the same space as vinyl
A contemporary CD player is a fraction of the size of a TT
There are doubtless more points of convenience but these are the most glaringly obvious....
All of the above becomes pretty much redundant once tracks are in the digital domain.
We have a very large chest of drawers entirely filled with 'physical' digital media (CDs, DVDs and games) that would all fit on a few portable HDDs. As new build homes are decreasing in size quite alarmingly, space saving is not simply a matter of convenience but essential
I don't need an RCM for my CD collection
I don't need to check/wipe dust of my CDs at every playing
I can copy my CDs to digital in a fraction of the time required for vinyl transfer
I don't need a dedicated phono stage for CD playback
I can store (at least) 3 times the number of CD albums in the same space as vinyl
A contemporary CD player is a fraction of the size of a TT
There are doubtless more points of convenience but these are the most glaringly obvious....
All of the above becomes pretty much redundant once tracks are in the digital domain.
We have a very large chest of drawers entirely filled with 'physical' digital media (CDs, DVDs and games) that would all fit on a few portable HDDs. As new build homes are decreasing in size quite alarmingly, space saving is not simply a matter of convenience but essential
Good point. My house is 65 years old and has no storage space. Makes having records cds and dvds in abundance a real challenge....not to mention all the gear:doh:
I. As new build homes are decreasing in size quite alarmingly, space saving is not simply a matter of convenience but essential
All true except that last bit which I don't buy. I live in a 2 bed terace built 1901, about 800 sq foot total. I reckon I would need to increase my CD collection to around 10,000 before it actually began to noticeably impinge on the living space. I could probably store 5000 just in the kitchen cupboards I don't use.
walpurgis
18-10-2015, 10:41
I could probably store 5000 just in the kitchen cupboards I don't use.
Yeah. But do you really want them smelling of fried bacon? :D
Yeah. But do you really want them smelling of fried bacon? :D
And your coolest ones in the fridge with the fish:eyebrows:
Yeah. But do you really want them smelling of fried bacon? :D
That would sort of work if you were playing some Blodwyn Pig....
All true except that last bit which I don't buy. I live in a 2 bed terace built 1901, about 800 sq foot total.
Yep - and new build is going back to those glorious days of Victorian 'cram em in' thinking that dominated the squalor of inner city back-to-back terraces...
awkwardbydesign
18-10-2015, 11:12
You know, we are discussing this as if we are normal people; we're not! We are just hifi nerds, and hardly representative of "real" people. For many of us, with hundreds or thousands of CDs, storage is a problem, but is that the case out in the real world? :scratch:
Yep - and new build is going back to those glorious days of Victorian 'cram em in' thinking that dominated the squalor of inner city back-to-back terraces...
Not much option when you've got the population of a city the size of Nottingham coming in every single year. And you don't want to build on what's left of the countryside.
One thing about the new builds is they are bloody well insulated. Pal of mine has a 4 bed detached he can heat the whole house just from his plasma telly.
Just had my house reinsulated. Made a big difference although it was messy...still clearing up stuff you come across in odd corners and kitchen cupboards etc. Flushed a fair few spiders from their hidey holes too...big uns
Spectral Morn
18-10-2015, 11:45
As a format no, not yet. For some it is, fair enough for the rest of us that value owning and handling a physical object we will continue to enjoy the pleasure of seeing and listening to our music.
While I accept it is possible to play music files to a very high standard, maybe better than the very best CD players and I have glimpsed that in my own set up, the amount of hassle in doing so for me outweighs the advantages.
Some in this thread and others moan about cleaning and dusting vinyl or the space physical collections take up, vinyl yes, CD not so much, the bottom line is once a record player is set up it plays, always until it needs the belt replaced, touch of new bearing oil or the cart replaced and even then it will continue with just reduced quality but still making music. Same is true of CDs until a player develops a fault, or needs a service.
Playing files is not so simple or issue free, hard drives fail, downloads can be corrupt, file meta data can be off, software failures can screw up playback, program glitches can cause playback problems, software updates can screw up playback, data base updates can cause playback delays and equipment to not work till the update is done, and so on. Of course pc/mac nerds can cope and know what to do, but normal folks will struggle when faced with such problems. In my case I just want to play music, and as soon as I put the CD on, the record etc. That has never been the reality with file playback.
I have tried the server option, which just plays files and despite it being a fully complete, dedicated product it still suffers from all the issues using a pc does.
I have said all this before and the PC/MAC folks speak loudly re what I say being not the case, well it has been in mine, and the issues folks have with setting up the pi show others struggle to or lack the knowledge to play music via it. I like the simplicity and consistency playing CDs, vinyl and reading a book gives me.
I think much depends on the end users desires, needs, requirements and mind set. My own mind can't understand the mentality of someone who copies their entire collection to file, stores it away or gets rid of it, or buys downloads which are non physical and as such are pretty transitory. I don't get the kindle thing either re books, or streaming movies rather than buying DVDs or Blu rays.
To me this non physical thing is the Emperors new clothes, and I will continue on as long as I can with physical media as long as possible. So for me CDs are not dead, nor are DVDs, Blu Rays or Books.
Regards Neil
Never had a lot of trouble with file based music tbh...the occasional glitch but since i got a rpi and moode its been no more than my b band dropping out and the pi had to be down powered and back on....very occasional corrupt sd card(ive got plenty copies all ready to plug in. When using the laptop as the file system player then yes it was much more prevalent but mostly ok.
E Readers are a big plus as ive got a couple of hundred books on something smaller than a book. Ive got copies on several places so i can get it all back. As i can with music.
I still like my physical media though and will keep the cds and occasionally i want a different presentation i use the cd set up which isnt too shabby either.
Not sure it will die completely but if the majority of younger folk i know are any guide it wont be high up on their priorities... Their IPhone is IT!
Spectral Morn
18-10-2015, 12:06
Never had a lot of trouble with file based music tbh...the occasional glitch but since i got a rpi and moode its been no more than my b band dropping out and the pi had to be down powered and back on....very occasional corrupt sd card(ive got plenty copies all ready to plug in. When using the laptop as the file system player then yes it was much more prevalent but mostly ok.
E Readers are a big plus as ive got a couple of hundred books on something smaller than a book. Ive got copies on several places so i can get it all back. As i can with music.
I still like my physical media though and will keep the cds and occasionally i want a different presentation i use the cd set up which isnt too shabby either.
Not sure it will die completely but if the majority of younger folk i know are any guide it wont be high up on their priorities... Their IPhone is IT!
Which is more than a CD player will cause, much more ;)
Regards Neil
True but there are up sides too.. I can pick what i want to here and change it instantly without any effort.. No getting up and dragging my old ass over to find cd then take one out put another in etc :eyebrows:
Spectral Morn
18-10-2015, 12:22
True but there are up sides too.. I can pick what i want to here and change it instantly without any effort.. No getting up and dragging my old ass over to find cd then take one out put another in etc :eyebrows:
That's a circumstantial advantage.
Regards Neil
Yup very true. I dont have everything ripped by any means though.. Almost no blues..i like to PUT those on and look at the case etc...blues is special. I think anyways.
cloth-ears
18-10-2015, 12:32
I dint see any downside, only up. My laptop is fitted with an SSD drive so starts up in seconds and runs totally silent. Windows 7 is on a separate partition and was a clean install with no other programs installed. Updates have been disabled and it is not connected to the net. It is to all intents and purpose a giant jukebox containing my entire CD collection, with room to spare. I am now able to find in an instant any CD or individual track. With no other programs running, the laptop performs faultlessly. I don’t need to hold the CD case in my hand to enjoy the music. As the music is saved in WAV format the sound is indistinguishable from the original and totally future proof
Not sure it will die completely but if the majority of younger folk i know are any guide it wont be high up on their priorities... Their IPhone is IT!
Interesting point in this - my 18 year old daughter is definitely of the 'iPhone' generation but recently asked me about a basic hifi set up as she was frustrated with the quality of her phone's MP3 playback. I rigged up a dinky Topping connected to her PC output and a couple of Mission bookshelf speakers (I had been using these occasionally in the shed) and she has be well chuffed with the result. Talking about it later she pointed out to me that her and her friends have grown up with the transition from analogue to digital and for them it's a kind of logical progression. As a wee bairn she listened to stories and music on cassette and watched stuff on VHS ... a bit older it was CDs and DVDs and then in her early teens the move to digital files on PC and phone and now pretty much everything downloaded or streamed from the cloud.
She still has the players for all the earlier formats and is very much aware of the advantages and drawbacks with each so is reasonably capable of an informed choice - as are many of her generation - so her request for a better quality playback was, almost literally, music to my ears :)
Spectral Morn
18-10-2015, 12:50
I dint see any downside, only up. My laptop is fitted with an SSD drive so starts up in seconds and runs totally silent. Windows 7 is on a separate partition and was a clean install with no other programs installed. Updates have been disabled and it is not connected to the net. It is to all intents and purpose a giant jukebox containing my entire CD collection, with room to spare. I am now able to find in an instant any CD or individual track. With no other programs running, the laptop performs faultlessly. I don’t need to hold the CD case in my hand to enjoy the music. As the music is saved in WAV format the sound is indistinguishable from the original and totally future proof
Which you can do by getting up, using your eyes and putting a CD on. The convenience argument is a red herring unless you have a physical problem that reduces your mobility.
Tried most of what you have and still had issues, my Cd players and record players cause me none and my entire collection is before me, in all its physical delight, at my finger tips.
Regards Neil
I don't need an RCM for my CD collection
I don't need to check/wipe dust of my CDs at every playing
I can copy my CDs to digital in a fraction of the time required for vinyl transfer
I don't need a dedicated phono stage for CD playback
I can store (at least) 3 times the number of CD albums in the same space as vinyl
A contemporary CD player is a fraction of the size of a TT
There are doubtless more points of convenience but these are the most glaringly obvious....
All of the above becomes pretty much redundant once tracks are in the digital domain.
We have a very large chest of drawers entirely filled with 'physical' digital media (CDs, DVDs and games) that would all fit on a few portable HDDs. As new build homes are decreasing in size quite alarmingly, space saving is not simply a matter of convenience but essential
1/ I don't have a RCM so that's not a problem - you aren't obliged to use one
2/ I don't need to check/wipe my records either - just put them back in their sleeve immediately after play
3/ I don't want to copy my records so that's no benefit - I would rather listen to the record than a second quality copy.
4/ having a phonostage is hardly an inconvenience (bit desperate that one)
5/ so what, do you live in a cupboard?
6/ a CD player isn't a fraction the size as in a significant fraction. Anyway, so what? Assuming you don't live in a cupboard it's not relevant - it's not like a turntable is the size of a car!
To be blunt, most of your 'convenience benefits' are a bit spurious. I could just as easily say I don't have to de-magnetise my CD's, wash, buff or put coloured marker round the edge of them. You probably don't do any of those things when playing a CD - but some do (hardly convenient for them). My hi-fi is already extensive enough to require its own room and removing the record deck (and phonostage) wouldn't make much of a difference to that - a bit of space for record storage is very little in the greater scheme of things.
File based music is an altogether different can of worms - convenient yes, but at what cost...
Hi Mark,
1/ I don't have a RCM so that's not a problem - you aren't obliged to use one...
I've always wondered why that is, especially for a vinyl nut, like your good self... Surely you don't dispute the undeniable benefits of correctly implementing the use of a well-designed RCM, in terms of preserving the condition of a valuable record collection, and also ensuring that your records sound as good as they possibly can? :)
Marco.
File based music is an altogether different can of worms - convenient yes, but at what cost...
Not much, IME, if you're using something well-designed and executed, such as a Raspberry Pi.
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
18-10-2015, 14:46
Not much, IME, if you're using something well-designed and executed, such as a Raspberry Pi.
Marco.
I suspect he didn't mean financial cost. Or did he?
1/ I don't have a RCM so that's not a problem - you aren't obliged to use one
2/ I don't need to check/wipe my records either - just put them back in their sleeve immediately after play
Apparently not a serious vinyl fanatic then :lol:
3/ I don't want to copy my records so that's no benefit - I would rather listen to the record than a second quality copy.
Fair enough - I prefer to live in the 21st century though
4/ having a phonostage is hardly an inconvenience (bit desperate that one)
OK - I should have said I don't need a pre-amp ... a pot in a box and I'm done
5/ so what, do you live in a cupboard?
Nope - but fortunately I do have a life outside of listening to music with hobbies that also demand space (oh yes - and a family who also have their hobbies)
6/ a CD player isn't a fraction the size as in a significant fraction. Anyway, so what? Assuming you don't live in a cupboard it's not relevant - it's not like a turntable is the size of a car!
... see above
To be blunt, most of your 'convenience benefits' are a bit spurious.
To you ... yes
I suspect he didn't mean financial cost. Or did he?
Perhaps not, but what other significant or relevant 'cost' is there?
Quite simply, much of the 'grief' claimed by folk, attached to participating in computer audio/streaming music, is exaggerated and blown out of all proportion. If it were true that it was automatically a nightmare, then I'd never have entertained buying (and using) an RPi, which in reality was simple to install, is piss-easy to use on a daily basis, and is as reliable as a very reliable thing. Plus, it sounds superb.
If your experience of computer audio has been the opposite, then quite simply, you've either been doing it wrongly or have bought the wrong product for your needs. That's the truth of the matter!
Also, I wouldn't necessarily recommend it as your only source. For me, it makes sense having a streaming set-up running alongside other more traditional sources, such as CD and vinyl, as that way you get the best of both worlds (via the use of old and new technology), and in turn have access to your favourite music, which may only be available on ONE of those formats....
I don't like missing out, in that respect, so that's why I not only have a music streamer, but a CDP, turntable, tuner and tape deck! ;)
Marco.
Would think my pi cost about £150all in so not too bad really for a pretty good and pretty example. Could have done it cheaper easily enough
Which you can do by getting up, using your eyes and putting a CD on. The convenience argument is a red herring unless you have a physical problem that reduces your mobility.
Not necessarily. If we're out in the garden in the summer, quite some distance away from where the hi-fi system lives (as we have a big garden), and are listening to music outside whist having lunch, then from my laptop (or smartphone), I have access to approx 1000 albums, stored on my NAS, all at the touch of a button!
What price that convenience, instead of having to run in and out of the house changing CDs (or worse, records) all the time.....? ;)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
18-10-2015, 15:35
Not necessarily. If we're out in the garden in the summer, quite some distance away from where the hi-fi system lives (as we have a big garden), and are listening to music outside whist having lunch, then from my laptop (or smartphone), I have access to approx 1000 albums, stored on my NAS, all at the touch of a button!
What price that convenience, instead of having to run in and out of the house changing CDs (or worse, records) all the time.....? ;)
Marco.
And is that how you would listen to them? Yuck!
Of course, there are these new-fangled devices. I believe I have 3 or 4 of various types floating around.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513Gl8jzBtL._SX300_.jpg
Anyway, you shouldn't be annoying the neighbours with your raucous pop music!
And is that how you would listen to them? Yuck!
...connected to either my Celestion 66s or 15XRs, daftee! :ner:
Essentially, I use a longer set of speaker cables, attached to the Copper amp, chuck them out of the window where my system is, and plonk said speakers onto the lawn... Then sit, in the shade of the patio, with my lappy, and wirelessly select music to play from the NAS, whilst sipping a chilled glass of Chablis. All good fun, old chap!
Anyway, you shouldn't be annoying the neighbours with your raucous pop music!
Lol - it's fun sometimes competing with live music from the pub next door... That's when I wheel out the Tannoys!! :rave:
:lol: :fingers:
Marco.
Fancy having a go at this, Mark:
I've always wondered why that is, especially for a vinyl nut, like your good self... Surely you don't dispute the undeniable benefits of correctly implementing the use of a well-designed RCM, in terms of preserving the condition of a valuable record collection, and also ensuring that your records sound as good as they possibly can?
I would appreciate your response, as I dislike 'loose ends' :)
Marco.
I also want to know how Mark gets away without having an RCM...
Indeed, for me, there's a dichotomy between someone who, quite clearly, loves his records, but hasn't invested in a tool that indisputably not only cleans and protects them, but makes them sound better, too! :)
I would also imagine that cost isn't the issue.
Marco.
I have an RCM but rarely use it because:
a) it's very noisy
and
b) cleaning records is fucking tedious
Ha- those are as good reasons as any not to!
I actually find the cleaning process rather therapeutic, and I do it whilst listening to music :)
Marco.
Us-&-Them
19-10-2015, 19:46
Has anyone heard ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?
Has anyone ever contemplated walking round in circles all of their life?
Has anyone ever heard of taking a piss whilst facing into the opposing wind and just getting your own back?
Has anyone seen the advert that ends with the phrase Ariston, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on.............................................. :zzz::zzz:
PUTTING IT SIMPLY - JUST DO WHATEVER'S RIGHT FOR YOU !!!! PROBLEM SOLVED
It is all about the sound to me whatever hits you grab it and run with it. Me its lps and tubes along with cassettes and a great FM tuner with a rotary rooftop antennea (sp) you get the picture. Ah but I love my set up and getting ready to upgrade, love it. I will keep it short but I know what I hear and what makes me grin, and tap my foot and blow my harp all the little things in life that make it worth getting out of bed in the morning. Like the song goes dont start me to talking...............
57
Ha- those are as good reasons as any not to!
I actually find the cleaning process rather therapeutic, and I do it whilst listening to music :)
Marco.
Believe me, with my RCM, you wouldn't hear any music. It's like Concorde taking off. Sometimes I have a binge and clean a big batch, but the whole process pisses me off so much it's ages till I can face doing it again.
Has anyone ever contemplated walking round in circles all of their life?
JOXRAQIWiyY
Has anyone heard ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?
Has anyone ever contemplated walking round in circles all of their life?
Has anyone ever heard of taking a piss whilst facing into the opposing wind and just getting your own back?
Has anyone seen the advert that ends with the phrase Ariston, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on.............................................. :zzz::zzz:
PUTTING IT SIMPLY - JUST DO WHATEVER'S RIGHT FOR YOU !!!! PROBLEM SOLVED
Trouble is, it would make for a rather boring forum! The point about joining an audio community, such as this, is to SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCES with others, otherwise you'd be as well locking yourself away in a dark room with your music and your boxes... Hang on, maybe that's what some folk here do already! :lol:
Marco.
Trouble is, it would make for a rather boring forum! The point about joining an audio community, such as this, is to SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCES with others, otherwise you'd be as well locking yourself away in a dark room with your music and your boxes... Hang on, maybe that's what some folk here do already! :lol:
Marco.
Works for me!
walpurgis
19-10-2015, 20:23
locking yourself away in a dark room with your music and your boxes...
My boxes are full of bones..................:mad:
Believe me, with my RCM, you wouldn't hear any music. It's like Concorde taking off. Sometimes I have a binge and clean a big batch, but the whole process pisses me off so much it's ages till I can face doing it again.
Oh, the VPI is far from quiet! Music gets listened to in between vacuuming.... Fortunately, being semi-retired, I'm not usually short of time, so I just pour myself a beer or a nice glass of wine and enjoy some tunes, whilst cleaning my records.
I listen to the cleaned ones, whilst I'm cleaning the dirty ones, thus getting not only to enjoy the music, but the improved fidelity resulting from the cleaning process! :cool:
Marco.
eisenach
19-10-2015, 21:07
I'm lucky to have two good systems. The main one in the loft, my domain, runs from a Primare BP32 which is a bloody good player. It can stream from NAS, but I rarely use it other than as a CD / SACD player. CD even trumps the Michell Gyrodec, which rarely gets an outing.
In the front room, family space, CD rarely gets a look in. Everything is streamed from NAS to the Oppo 103.
That said, today I wanted to listen there to a CD I have just bought and not yet ripped. Open the drawer, plonk it in and off you go. Lovely. No waiting for the tablet to boot and connect (3rd try), no getting stuck between menus (and why is it now that I have to add every track individually to the queue, when a few weeks ago, all I had to do was select the album I wanted to listen to?). If the CDs weren't all upstairs, I suspect it would be CD only in the front room, too.
Us-&-Them
19-10-2015, 21:54
Trouble is, it would make for a rather boring forum! The point about joining an audio community, such as this, is to SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCES with others, otherwise you'd be as well locking yourself away in a dark room with your music and your boxes... Hang on, maybe that's what some folk here do already! :lol:
Marco.
Maybe I'm already there............ :eek: maybe I've caved and succumb to the mind-boggling/numbing, monotonous reality of my wife and daughter being super-glued to the electronic preacher that seems to have invaded my (and almost everybody else's) front room spewing out farcical nonsense like the X-Factor; organised, choreographed propaganda like the National News and other manipulative (do as you are told) brain washing media :mental:
I've taken retreat in that glorious abode called my man-cave :eyebrows:
Yeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssss!!!!!! Absorbed in Rock n Roll peace !!!!:eyebrows: Remembering when music was king, the country and its inhabitants weren't existing in such a controlled police state and life was more relaxed !!!!!! :guitar::lolsign::rock::hairmetal::bulb:
Man, this dark room is ace !!!!
Quality! :respect:
Marco.
allthingsanalogue
19-10-2015, 22:48
Just saw this thread.
Pc with Jriver and Chord 2qute and running in WASPI Mode doesn't to me sound as good as using a CD5XS into same dac. Files ripped in lossless. It's not as if it's hard to tell either, a quick a/b comparrison confirms to me the CD still sounds better.
Just saw this thread.
Pc with Jriver and Chord 2qute and running in WASPI Mode doesn't to me sound as good as using a CD5XS into same dac. Files ripped in lossless. It's not as if it's hard to tell either, a quick a/b comparrison confirms to me the CD still sounds better.
... best upgrade to a Mac :lol:
Firebottle
20-10-2015, 06:14
Maybe I'm already there.......
Yeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssss!!!!!! Absorbed in Rock n Roll peace !!!!:eyebrows:
Cracking :fingers: I'm with you man :rock:
allthingsanalogue
20-10-2015, 06:57
... best upgrade to a Mac :lol:
Funny that because my Dad's mac with iTunes and bit perfect still sounds worse than his Meridian transport playing the same cd. Maybe we need better quality USB leads?
Stratmangler
20-10-2015, 07:56
So your Naim feeds the coax SPDIF and the computer feeds a USB input?
Possibly the USB input isn't as well implemented as the SPDIF inputs.
Have you tried using a decent USB>coax SPDIF converter from the PC into the DAC? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the M2Tech HiFace2.
From the Mac into the DAC you don't need to go that far - most Macs have a dual use headphone port, and you should be able to use a Toslink optical link up.
awkwardbydesign
20-10-2015, 09:39
So your Naim feeds the coax SPDIF and the computer feeds a USB input?
Possibly the USB input isn't as well implemented as the SPDIF inputs.
Have you tried using a decent USB>coax SPDIF converter from the PC into the DAC? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the M2Tech HiFace2.
From the Mac into the DAC you don't need to go that far - most Macs have a dual use headphone port, and you should be able to use a Toslink optical link up.
Blimey, and I thought this streaming lark was supposed to be more convenient! Just plug in a CDP and it's done. :D
Funny that because my Dad's mac with iTunes and bit perfect still sounds worse than his Meridian transport playing the same cd. Maybe we need better quality USB leads?
iTunes playback is pants, even with uncompressed files - 'Audiovarna plus' instead of iTunes and a glass toslink cable (e.g Fisual Hollywood) out to the DAC - sorted ;)
cloth-ears
20-10-2015, 10:43
I agree it’s not that straightforward to correctly set up a PC to supply the required output to the USB port but you only have to do it once. I set mine to 24 bit 192000 Hz and it works perfectly.
I suspect he didn't mean financial cost. Or did he?
You are quite right - I wasn't referring to financial cost.
Hi Mark,
I've always wondered why that is, especially for a vinyl nut, like your good self... Surely you don't dispute the undeniable benefits of correctly implementing the use of a well-designed RCM, in terms of preserving the condition of a valuable record collection, and also ensuring that your records sound as good as they possibly can? :)
Marco.
I've never really felt the need for one - I do keep meaning to build one but something else always comes along instead. I've got records I've had for thirty years that are no noisier now than when I got them. The majority of the time I just get the record out of the sleeve and put it on the platter, cue the cartridge, listen to the record and then put it back in the sleeve - seems to work for me. Perhaps because I've never really gone in for buying a lot of second hand records - though I do have quite a few. Occasionally a record will become noisy - a friend has a RCM and I just use his - it's very rare though.
Spectral Morn
20-10-2015, 10:59
I've never really felt the need for one - I do keep meaning to build one but something else always comes along instead. I've got records I've had for thirty years that are no noisier now than when I got them. The majority of the time I just get the record out of the sleeve and put it on the platter, cue the cartridge, listen to the record and then put it back in the sleeve - seems to work for me. Perhaps because I've never really gone in for buying a lot of second hand records - though I do have quite a few. Occasionally a record will become noisy - a friend has a RCM and I just use his - it's very rare though.
Must admit that sounds pretty much my experience too. I recently got one, but so far haven't felt the need to use it.
Regards Neil
. Occasionally a record will become noisy - a friend has a RCM and I just use his - it's very rare though.
Mystery solved ;) I thought there was no way you could get away without at least having access to one. Keeping good care of your records helps, but I do that and they still seem to accumulate crud over the years.
It is very rare and it's only in the last couple of years I've had access to one. To be honest, I could survive without.
allthingsanalogue
20-10-2015, 12:47
So your Naim feeds the coax SPDIF and the computer feeds a USB input?
Possibly the USB input isn't as well implemented as the SPDIF inputs.
Have you tried using a decent USB>coax SPDIF converter from the PC into the DAC? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the M2Tech HiFace2.
From the Mac into the DAC you don't need to go that far - most Macs have a dual use headphone port, and you should be able to use a Toslink optical link up.
The USB input on the Chord 2qute has been designed to actually perform better than the SPDIF inputs apparently. But it's not only this dac, I have heard 2 different Arcam dacs, 1 asynchronous and one not, and two other USB dacs that I can't remember the names of but one was about £1000 and the other £1400ish but still a dedicated transport sounded better to me on the same dac
The chord dac on the pc automatically selects the correct frequency (I have checked) and Jriver overrides the windows mixer to take control of the dac so it's not a pc issue, as I said the other dacs were on macs.
I've never really felt the need for one - I do keep meaning to build one but something else always comes along instead. I've got records I've had for thirty years that are no noisier now than when I got them. The majority of the time I just get the record out of the sleeve and put it on the platter, cue the cartridge, listen to the record and then put it back in the sleeve - seems to work for me. Perhaps because I've never really gone in for buying a lot of second hand records - though I do have quite a few. Occasionally a record will become noisy - a friend has a RCM and I just use his - it's very rare though.
Thanks for that, Mark, and fair enough. I was simply curious! :)
Do you not find though (I certainly do) that a lot of brand new records have been badly pressed in the factory (probably not isolated properly from dust and dirt, and/or handled badly during the production process) and consequently, perhaps also due to the poorer quality of vinyl generally used these days, outside of expensive 'audiophile' pressings, sound noisy to begin with?
I've bought loads of records like that, and the ONLY cure is thorough cleaning, through an RCM, as nothing else shifts the ingrained 'crud' (invisible to the naked eye), causing said noise.
Also RCM's remove the sonic degradation caused by mould release agent, which you can usually see as a kind of 'dull film' sitting on the surface of the record, and which is quite obviously removed after cleaning through an RCM. The difference in sound the removal of that 'film' can make, IME, is significant.
Or perhaps you're just more tolerant of noise (clicks and pops, etc) than I am?
For me, unless I can get my records sounding almost as quiet as a CD, during playback, I'm not satisfied. Furthermore, achieving the highest playback fidelity, with any music medium, is always my goal, and vinyl is no exception.
Therefore, for me, a good RCM (as it not only cleans records but improves how they sound) is an invaluable tool. And if your records sound better, you enjoy the music more, which at the end of the day is what it's all about! :cool:
YMMV.
Marco.
What was it John Peel said about life having surface noise?
Audio Advent
20-10-2015, 13:39
I agree it’s not that straightforward to correctly set up a PC to supply the required output to the USB port but you only have to do it once. I set mine to 24 bit 192000 Hz and it works perfectly.
You'd best hope that the upsampling is done well - substandard stuff will likely cause a loss in sound quality.
Can't be anything more convenient nor quicker than putting a CD into a CD player and pressing play*. CD players even have their own analogue outs! Just plug straight into the hifi! Now that's convenient, all in one box! Whatever will scientists think of next?
* quicker from the point of all power off (standby not allowed) to playing the CD.
Audio Advent
20-10-2015, 13:45
What was it John Peel said about life having surface noise?
Never understood the point of what he said - when I go to listen to music, I try my best to get away from life's surface noise so I can only hear the music and why best listening is done at night. If there is "life's surface noise" in the recording then it will come out more easily if the playback media is as quiet as possible (therefore digital will be the best you can get in that regard).
Maybe John Peel's favourite place to listen to music was on a constuction site or the middle of Speaker's Corner on a Sunday afternoon?
What was it John Peel said about life having surface noise?
:eyebrows: Indeed, although I usually find the musical message is easier to appreciate minus (however subtle) the "Rice Krispies" effect! ;)
Marco.
Never understood the point of what he said...
I think the point was that he considered vinyl was a more 'human' way of listening to music, and its flaws are not only part of its charm, but what makes it 'real'.
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
20-10-2015, 14:14
I agree it’s not that straightforward to correctly set up a PC to supply the required output to the USB port but you only have to do it once. I set mine to 24 bit 192000 Hz and it works perfectly.
You're 'aving a giraffe!
Must admit that sounds pretty much my experience too. I recently got one, but so far haven't felt the need to use it.
More like you're too chicken to pour any 'fluids' onto your records, not knowing for sure the outcome! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Audio Advent
20-10-2015, 15:12
I think the point was that he considered vinyl was a more 'human' way of listening to music, and its flaws are not only part of its charm, but what makes it 'real'.
Marco.
I think I get the sentiment - although I think it was less absract than what you suggest, personally, that he was saying vinyl noise is the personality trait of vinyl and that everything in life has a personality - but his reasoning doesn't make much sense to me unless you specifically love the act of listening to vinyl as a thing in itself that you wish to be reminded of every time.
That may well have been his point actually, thinking about it now.. he seems like the kind of guy who would love the act of listening to vinyl in and of itself, memories of listening on a Dansette etc etc. So terrible surface noise on a terrible punk recording will be part of that. All very personal to him.
If however, you just want to listen to the personality of the music, the personality of the space it was recorded in, the personality of a noisy vinyl medium will get in the way of doing that so should be got rid of as much as possible. Silence does exist in life and it's hard to find. Natural noise is hard to find in the human world we live in. Music and recordings should be an escape from the norm in my view by allowing you to have silent backgrounds etc as much as possible.
Seems to me his point was very anti-audiophile in sentiment and the opposite of things sounding sonically "real". I imagine he would shake his head in disbelief at much of audiophile talk and gear discussion.
awkwardbydesign
20-10-2015, 16:19
I imagine he would shake his head in disbelief at much of audiophile talk and gear discussion.
Err, yes! But so do I.
And I went to see Fink last week. I have the CD but bought the LP as it sounds more like the live performance. So what exactly is this "real" whereof you speak?
Us-&-Them
20-10-2015, 20:20
:eyebrows: Indeed, although I usually find the musical message is easier to appreciate minus (however subtle) the "Rice Krispies" effect! ;)
Marco.
I have to admit that (to me) some (that only means a few) things sound better on vinyl than on CD but, without doubt, it will always be CD for me and your statement above just about sums vinyl up :)
walpurgis
20-10-2015, 20:28
I have to admit that (to me) some (that only means a few) things sound better on vinyl than on CD but, without doubt, it will always be CD for me and your statement above just about sums vinyl up :)
What are you using to play CDs Loz?
Us-&-Them
20-10-2015, 20:59
What are you using to play CDs Loz?
When I give my answer to your question, I guess I'm then waiting for a comment (one way or another) that is going to reflect my preference to listening to CD due to the considerations of my listening equipment and then maybe tell me the "whys" and "why nots" of my preference ;)
Oh well, here goes - I listen to CD in 3 ways:-
1. Playing CD's on a Pioneer PD-70 through an SA9800 Amplifier into Pioneer HPM-60 speakers.
2. Playing CD's on a Pioneer DVD drive on my PC through a Creative Elite Pro S/Card into my SA9800 Amplifier into Pioneer HPM-60 speakers.
3. Playing CD's on a Panasonic Blu-Ray player into a Mission Cyrus II Amp with an external Mission Cyrus PSX Transformer.
Also currently in the (SLOW) process of building a PiDAC system to try out this (supposedly) wonderful sound quality low expense system that apparently blows away £2K+ players/DAC's/Amp set-ups. (obviously for FLAC or WAV rips).
And roughly, there you have it !!!
Spectral Morn
20-10-2015, 21:47
More like you're too chicken to pour any 'fluids' onto your records, not knowing for sure the outcome! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Lol
I always looked after and was pretty anal about keeping my lps clean, dust free, and scratch free as much as possible. I use a very good brush I bought twenty + years ago, that seems to be able to remove any crap in the grooves. I have always been somewhat sceptical re lp cleaners. The film you mention I have never seen on any of the lps I have played and I have examined them very closely.
That there is a possible residue after pressing, something in the vinyl, I accept but unless one cleans a record before playing then its a waste of time to do so afterwards, to remove it - stearic acid, mostly a heat buffer - but obviously dirt and dust can be an issue.
I was given the cleaner by a friend and I have it set up but not used it yet. Thing is I can't try it to see what it does. Play a record and the residue is there, then removed/affected by the playing. Play again and one removes more. So does cleaning remove it, or other stuff ? If one cleans first then that might just be how the record would have sounded, without.
To a degree yes you are right, in that I have a degree of mistrust of putting anything on the vinyl bar, my trusted brush and the stylus.
Regards Neil
Lol
I always looked after and was pretty anal about keeping my lps clean, dust free, and scratch free as much as possible. I use a very good brush I bought twenty + years ago, that seems to be able to remove any crap in the grooves. I have always been somewhat sceptical re lp cleaners. The film you mention I have never seen on any of the lps I have played and I have examined them very closely.
That there is a possible residue after pressing, something in the vinyl, I accept but unless one cleans a record before playing then its a waste of time to do so afterwards, to remove it - stearic acid, mostly a heat buffer - but obviously dirt and dust can be an issue.
I was given the cleaner by a friend and I have it set up but not used it yet. Thing is I can't try it to see what it does. Play a record and the residue is there, then removed/affected by the playing. Play again and one removes more. So does cleaning remove it, or other stuff ? If one cleans first then that might just be how the record would have sounded, without.
To a degree yes you are right, in that I have a degree of mistrust of putting anything on the vinyl bar, my trusted brush and the stylus.
Regards Neil
go on....be a devil ;) I sometimes like to play a bit of a record to hear how much cleaning it improves the sound....it never fails to impress
walpurgis
20-10-2015, 21:56
Yes. I like to be thorough with my record cleaning, but even after a good going over with the belt sander and Ajax, they still seem noisy! :eek:
Spectral Morn
20-10-2015, 22:23
Yes. I like to be thorough with my record cleaning, but even after a good going over with the belt sander and Ajax, they still seem noisy! :eek:
:lol:
Audio Advent
21-10-2015, 00:14
Err, yes! But so do I.
And I went to see Fink last week. I have the CD but bought the LP as it sounds more like the live performance. So what exactly is this "real" whereof you speak?
In the context of how and why I used the term "real", I bet you all the money in the world that part of his live performance did not involve the sound of surface noise of a vinyl record!
Therefore any surface noise that John Peel spoke of is not part of anything sounding real other than the sound of an unclean or scratched record. Him saying that he considers the surface noise of vinyl to be part of the surface noise of life and something he enjoys, is saying that he didn't care for getting his records to sound as close to the sound the artist put down in the studio at all.
In terms of Fink, is the CD or vinyl a recording of a live performance? If not, it should sound like a studio recording yet you're saying the vinyl sounds like as bad as a live set with all the associated high noise-floor of a crowded venue. High noise floor is exactly not the real sound of a studio. I'd take the vinyl back if it has that much noise on it or give it a good clean until it's as quiet as the CD.
But of course John Peel's comment was a throw-away remark to simply say that he doesn't mind the pops and crackles - the quote shouldn't be taken to mean anything deep or meaningful about the fantastic sound of vinyl, as some audiophiles do, as really the sentiment is the opposite.
allthingsanalogue
21-10-2015, 00:22
Getting somewhere know!
Switching the chord dac to run in ASIO mode in Jriver from WASPI has improved things no end
:lol:
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