Transferring vinyl to computer

[vegman1973]

Hey up, was wondering if anybody had tried some software that copy's vinyl to computer? I'm wanting to record it at as high resolution as possible to play on my Lampizator through DSD
Looking at some of the album prices for DSD and it's very expensive
Any help or advice would be greatly received
Cheers

[struth]

Marco is your man. He does a pretty decent job by all accounts

[Qwin]

I looked at this a while back and you will need some form of software on your computer to work with the files.

It's how you get the analogue signal into the softwares digital domain that is crucial and where quality issues arise.
So you will probably need hardware, as internal sound cards are not going to be much good quality/resolution wise.

Maybe something like the Tascam-322 USB audio interface would work? analogue in, digital out via USB. (ADC).

[struth]

I e got a gadget in a drawer for that. I got it from the us i think.. Only tried it once and decided not to bother. It did work though

[vegman1973]

Hi Qwin I'll have a butchers at that. I'm after the best resolution possible is the Tascam 322 the tool for the job? My computer skills are quite limited but I usually muddle through

[vegman1973]

Alright struth
Is it a big hassle recording onto computer via vinyl?

[struth]

Needs a bit of setting up and trial to get to grips with it all I think but once you do that it will likely be fairly simple. I just wasnt up for the learning curve at the time Scott. Some software is better than others too I think.
I initially wanted to transcribe my 78's but they were fairly noisy and that didnt help. I did one vinyl and it seemed to sound quite good but the files were kinda wrong as i hadnt got to grips with software. As i say Marco does vinyl to cd so he will likely have more info

[vegman1973]

Ok cheers mate, I'll investigate further and see how it goes.

[mikmas]

I regularly transcribe vinyl to my Mac using a USB device and Audacity software and have done for some time. The results I get are great and certainly on a par with CDs though obviously not quite a match for raw vinyl replay.

The USB device was made by Terratec and is very good (also has built in phono stage although I use my amp for that) This one is now discontinued but there are plenty of equivalent devices available at all price points.

Audacity is free, works flawlessly and saves to a multitude of formats (including FLAC) It is also brilliant sound wave editor with a long list of adjustable filters although I mostly use it for cutting out any pops before saving. The process is time consuming given that you are stuck with 'real time' transfer, track separation and entering meta data (titles, musicians, date, etc) but I find it well worthwhile :)

Edited to add:
Just had a quick look on eBay and found this NAD box that looks equivalent and has both phono and line inputs:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NAD-PP-4-Digital-Phono-Preamp-With-USB-Out-/171843474085?hash=item2802ab52a5:m:mxdDLp5BFhFgANh 9jASLLWg

[Qwin]

I remember the Tascam 322 was higher resolution than CD but can't remember exactly what the spec was.
Google it and check out the features. I was looking at all the options, including Pro CD recorders and DAT recorders.
Once you have the music converted to digital you can move it accross sytems.

[Qwin]

I just checked out Terratec, the unit I spotted was a similar idea to the Tascam, they are sometimes called external sound cards.
The Tascam had a higher sample rate than the Terratec I came accross, there are many models around and prices go through the roof when you get into multi channel studio gear.

[vegman1973]

That's really good. Like I said I'm looking for the best transfer rates possible better than cd if that's achievable
I love vinyl but I also love my new Dac. If I could record my favourite vinyl onto HD. Then when I'm feeling lazy or after a change in music sound I could just access my files using Jriver then upsample to DSD. I'm using a few add on's like Regen and linear power supply and have been astounded by the results. Thanks for all the input I'll keep you posted on how I get on and how it sounds cheers

[Rothchild]

If money is no object then look at something like a Lynx Hilo: http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=59#

If you're working to a budget the Beri will do: http://www.music-group.com/Categories/Behringer/Computer-Audio/Audio-Interfaces/UFO202/p/P0A12

If you have a fancy pre you can set it to line in and use that, if not then it has riaa compensated input so you can plug a deck straight in to it.

Record it all at 24/96 at a reasonable level (peaks between -18 & -12dBFS) and you'll have all that vinyl can offer. Personally I think 'upsampling' to DSD is irrelevant, if you're not recording and playing it with a DSD recorder then you're just adding unnecessary complication (and possibility of error)

EDIT: I note the Behringer actually only goes up to 48kHz, but I'm sure it will still do plenty well enough.

[Qwin]

This device on the bay also performs the task but no sample rate quoted:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-Audio-Capture-Device-Analogue-to-Digital-Converter-Recorder-Vinyl-MP3-PC-/331451442012?hash=item4d2c0ba35c:g:c1MAAOSwYGFUuU5 I

I think you can see there are lots of models available, do your research and get the right balance between sample rate/price to suit. :)

24/96 does seem a good proposition with files being reasonable size, but of a quality a good bit better than CD (16/44.1).

[Audio Advent]

My tip is to find a Korg MR1 or MR1000 (DSD recorders, MR1 = handheld, MR1000 = rackmount).

The MR1 only has a 20Gb harddrive and has been superceeded by the MR2 (and MR2000 respectively) and records in DSD64 only (MR1000 does DSD128). It has built-in preamps for low-level signals so maybe you will only need an RIAA stage?

I suggest this precisely because their specs are a little out of date (they are from 2007) and so I've seen the MR1 sell for as little as £90 on ebay secondhand, in perfect working order.

Here's a semi-pro review: https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar07/articles/korgmr.htm

[mikmas]

My tip is to find a Korg MR1 or MR1000 (DSD recorders, MR1 = handheld, MR1000 = rackmount).

Both tasty bits of kit with great features and specs .. reading that review, and others, I am now sorely tempted by an MR1 on ebay at the moment (currently £74 with 17 bids and one day to go...) but sense the final price will shoot up in the last minute :(

I'm also happily skint :)

[PaulStewart]

I use VinylStudio from Alpine Soft I route the TT through a Focusrite Sapphire mic input, then I go into the Mac via Firewire. The RIAA and snap crackle and pop removal are then done in software. I do a lot of transfers for record companies on this system and although I have CEDAR available, 90% of the time, this is good enough for commercial release on CD and download.

[Audio Advent]

Good point about the RIAA - can be done afterwards, just get the raw cartridge signal digitised.

How do the output voltages of carts and mics compare? In the same ball park or is a mic more akin to a high output cart?

[PaulStewart]

I use an M44-7 for a lot of it or a Denon 103 the mic amp in the Focusrite has ample gain for either

[mikmas]

I use VinylStudio from Alpine Soft I route the TT through a Focusrite Sapphire mic input, then I go into the Mac via Firewire.

Interesting .... I used a similar M-Audio firewire box for a while for Mac recording but had problems occasionally with Audacity compatibility and dropouts - might give VinylStudio a whirl

[Rothchild]

Vinyl Studio looks like a well worthwhile app if you're going to record lots of records, mainly because it helps with the really tedious bits (slicing up all the tracks and naming them).

[cloth-ears]

Although I keep getting told off for pointing this out, vinyl records have a nominal resolution of 8 bit. Any onboard soundcard can handle this with room to spare. No need to spend a fortune digitizing your LP collection. Just use the AUX out of your preamp into the soundcard input and use a freebie like Audacity for the edit

[Mark Grant]

There is more to it than the bits though, a proper studio quality sound card has very low noise and THD and a high dynamic range etc,

a few links:
http://us.focusrite.com/firewire-audio-interfaces/saffire-pro-14/specifications

http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=11

http://www.lynxstudio.com/pop/product_file.asp?i=24

http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/babyface.php

The average PC sound card will be no where near any of those although as always listening to see if you can hear the difference or not is more important than written specifications.

[PaulStewart]

Although I keep getting told off for pointing this out, vinyl records have a nominal resolution of 8 bit. Any onboard soundcard can handle this with room to spare. No need to spend a fortune digitizing your LP collection. Just use the AUX out of your preamp into the soundcard input and use a freebie like Audacity for the edit

Sorry ang I don't mean to tell you off, but you're wrong on that. Firstly in terms of bit depth the best analogue vinyl recordings will give around 11 bits depth and secondly, what sampling rate are you thinking of?

[cloth-ears]

You really don’t need a studio quality soundcard to record LP records.

The distortion, stereo separation, dynamic range, frequency response and background noise on a record is in an order of magnitude far higher than the most basic sound card. That’s a fact, check it out

[Stratmangler]

You really don’t need a studio quality soundcard to record LP records.

The distortion, stereo separation, dynamic range, frequency response and background noise on a record is in an order of magnitude far higher than the most basic sound card. That’s a fact, check it out

That may well be true, but the unfortunate thing with inbuilt computer hardware is that it's normally powered by the same SMPS that powers the bit that makes the computer do what it does.
And that's not necessarily a good thing.
It can be (and often is) heard over the analogue interfaces. It's apparent as white noise, and although very low level it is readily audible.

Use a separate interface that is not powered from the computer used and the situation changes. Your interface power supply is still of significance - use a decent linear PSU and the white noise level drops to inaudibility.
And that inaudibility does impact on the recordings you make.

[lurcher]

You really don’t need a studio quality soundcard to record LP records.

The distortion, stereo separation, dynamic range, frequency response and background noise on a record is in an order of magnitude far higher than the most basic sound card. That’s a fact, check it out

While we are on facts and ignoring the application of those facts, its also a fact that its possible to extract a correlated signal that is buried inside 20dB of uncorrelated noise, and 20dB happens to be an order of magnitude where I come from, so maybe its not so simple as you may think (it generally isn’t).

[mikmas]

You really don’t need a studio quality soundcard to record LP records.

The distortion, stereo separation, dynamic range, frequency response and background noise on a record is in an order of magnitude far higher than the most basic sound card. That’s a fact, check it out

Fact or not, I have never achieved a quality worth talking about with the included analogue input - in fact usually it's dire (on Mac and PC)

I moved to external A/D boxes a long time ago inputting via USB, Firewire or (most recently) Toslink digital input and have never had any regrets. The boxes have always been relatively cheap to acquire either new or used and brands have included Roland, Behringer, M-Audio and Terratec -all have been well made and deliver results far and above the noisy and often muddied crap achieved through analogue inputs.

[struth]

If its worth doing then i would do it right. It was worth doing at time but couldnt give it enough time to learn it all. Audacity was the program i used..someone mentioned it and a light came on lol. The hardware box i still have and it works well enough without being anything near hi end. Even has an earth post. It was about 49 quid in the day but is a lot cheaper now. Would be nice to have a go with fancy stuff like Paul has after being shown how but it aint gonna happen now.
I have my doubts that a soundcard in its self would do a great job but i know little about it.

[AlexM]

I like this for post-processing of Vinyl rips - Wave Corrector http://www.wavecor.co.uk/. It has some pretty clever signal processing, and a true WYSIWYG method of correcting 'difficult' clicks.

I use a HRT Linestreamer II+ from the aux out of my C-J ET3 Phono preamp. Sounds very good indeed to me!.

Regards,
Alex

[Audio Advent]

You really don’t need a studio quality soundcard to record LP records.

The distortion, stereo separation, dynamic range, frequency response and background noise on a record is in an order of magnitude far higher than the most basic sound card. That’s a fact, check it out

You're beliefs about vinyl and an eternal need to express those beliefs (whether true or not), blinds you to the reality of recording *anything*.

Doesn't matter if you're recording something with the dynamic range of 8 or 11 or 16 bits, or equivalent impulse response or frequency range of 32KHz or 192KHz, if you want to eliminate the sound and sonic signature of the soundcard itself, you absolutely need a good quality sound card.

Then you're forgetting completely about the sound of your pre-amp, RIAA stage and the cartridge/arm combo and turntable which all add to the sound you hear when listening to vinyl. To capture that in its entirety, you need as best a recording setup as possible - all of that system you listen to imparts infinitessimal detail and nuance and that is why different set-ups sound different. Yes, you can even capture the specific noise and distortion it makes.. afterall, that makes up part of the sound you listen to when listening to vinyl.

You appear to think that vinyl is digital and it's just a case of transfering a digital signal of the right bit depth and sample rate across? Or you've not really thought about what youre saying..

In simplify: You're not recording the signal on the vinyl - you're recording the sound of the hifi in it's entirety, hifi which exists in an infinitessimal world of nuance and variation.

[cloth-ears]

A lot of people here are making spurious claims about the abilities of vinyl. I’m not too sure why seemingly intelligent people are prepared to defend the humble LP to the point where they turn their backs on reality.

You would be hard pushed to find a sound card that could not achieve a SNR below 90db. The original thread was a question on how to put records on a computer. My response was that in my opinion it was a futile exercise to throw vast amounts of money on specialist’s equipment to achieve good results. As a person who has worked in a recording studio I have more than a rough idea on how these things work. Don’t shoot the messenger

[AlexM]

I think that the transparency or otherwise of the a/d & d/a process is relatively simple to evaluate, and indeed I have done so. Taking as much care as I can, I can say that my own experimentation shows that it ISN'T transparent with my kit and process (at 24/96 recording and playback) and that a degree of sonic degradation is inevitable. Having said that, it is relatively minor and there are some benefits in terms of click reduction/elimination and of course, convenience, portability and ease of access.

Given that I can clearly hear the effects of the recording and playback cycle through my not 'maximum effort' but high quality setup, I can't really accept that a basic sound card is good enough because it has a certain snr or supports a minimum bit depth. As with all aspects of recording and playback, you are fighting entropy and there isn't really a concept of 'good enough' that can be expressed as a simple specification.

[AlexM]

One thing I haven't tried and would like to is to use a high quality microphone preamp and digital RIAA correction, rather than my preamp 's phono stage. That might be interesting - has anyone tried this on a PC, what did you use to apply the equalisation and how did it work?

*edit: I see that there is an inverse RIAA effect in audacity.. will try that, but interested in other software or methods *

I might try this with my EMU 0404, which has a good, low noise microphone preamp.

Cheers, Alex

[PaulStewart]

Alex, never done it on a PC, but I've done it on hundreds of tracks on Macs, you can do it all in VinylStudio

[mikmas]

My response was that in my opinion it was a futile exercise to throw vast amounts of money on specialist’s equipment to achieve good results. As a person who has worked in a recording studio I have more than a rough idea on how these things work.

In hifi terms £115 (new) is hardly a 'vast amount of money' for the Focusrite Saffire mixer suggested by Paul earlier:
http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/recording-studio/detail.asp?stock=11010514353332&gclid=CNG33f2h0sgCFQrpwgodVWwJpg

I bought an equivalent M-Audio mixer in VGC for £80 and the results in terms of SQ were superb both for vinyl transfer and recording off air.
Audacity recording software is free online and VinylStudio (also mentioned by Paul) is £22 from the Apple store.

These aren't really 'specialist's equipment' but fairly run of the mill consumer electronics and software
I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with this...

[Audio Advent]

A lot of people here are making spurious claims about the abilities of vinyl. I’m not too sure why seemingly intelligent people are prepared to defend the humble LP to the point where they turn their backs on reality.

You would be hard pushed to find a sound card that could not achieve a SNR below 90db. The original thread was a question on how to put records on a computer. My response was that in my opinion it was a futile exercise to throw vast amounts of money on specialist’s equipment to achieve good results. As a person who has worked in a recording studio I have more than a rough idea on how these things work. Don’t shoot the messenger

Seems to me that the messenger has started a string of chinese whispers..

I haven't seen a response to you here that makes any spurious claims about the abilities of vinyl nor that anyone has defended the LP to the point they've turned their backs on reality - it sounds like you're having an argument with ghosts of your past here.

You say you've worked in a recording studio.. as a drummer? :lol:

People who care about the recordings they make in a studio spend a LOT of time agonising over the quality of their signal chain and converters and often spend a lot. And that to record an overdriven guitar which for many playing styles will have a dynamic range equivalent to about 6 bits, so compressed that sound will be.. but you'll be picking up all sorts of nuances of the gear (the pre-amp, the cartridge, turntable resonances etc etc in our case) which the well-thought out studio chain will hopefully capture.

Many PC audio inputs just sound poor whatever you record and in my view you need a dedicated sound card and preferably one outside the electrically noisy environment of the PC.

Besides, all this is moot. Spend just about £100 max on a Korg MR1 and you'll get fanstastic quality at DSD resolution (the impulse response of DSD is noted by people who have used the MR1 for vinyl digitising - sounds more lively compared to their PCM efforts). If it were you, you could bloody mindedly try to proove a point by spending £100 on the worst, most overpriced soundcard you can.. or you can buy an MR1 and get more for your money.

[cloth-ears]

Seems to me that the messenger has started a string of chinese whispers..

I haven't seen a response to you here that makes any spurious claims about the abilities of vinyl nor that anyone has defended the LP to the point they've turned their backs on reality - it sounds like you're having an argument with ghosts of your past here.

You say you've worked in a recording studio.. as a drummer? :lol:

People who care about the recordings they make in a studio spend a LOT of time agonising over the quality of their signal chain and converters and often spend a lot. And that to record an overdriven guitar which for many playing styles will have a dynamic range equivalent to about 6 bits, so compressed that sound will be.. but you'll be picking up all sorts of nuances of the gear (the pre-amp, the cartridge, turntable resonances etc etc in our case) which the well-thought out studio chain will hopefully capture.

Many PC audio inputs just sound poor whatever you record and in my view you need a dedicated sound card and preferably one outside the electrically noisy environment of the PC.

Besides, all this is moot. Spend just about £100 max on a Korg MR1 and you'll get fanstastic quality at DSD resolution (the impulse response of DSD is noted by people who have used the MR1 for vinyl digitising - sounds more lively compared to their PCM efforts). If it were you, you could bloody mindedly try to proove a point by spending £100 on the worst, most overpriced soundcard you can.. or you can buy an MR1 and get more for your money.

Drummer, very good. I only worked in recording studios for a few years before becoming a full time scientist and consultant. I’m not sure what your experience in the recording business is as you didn’t say. All I can say is time is money, a lot of money. As to your assertion that studio engineers agonising over the quality of their signal chain and converters, we spent most of our time applying as much DRC as we could get away with in order to lift the recording as far as possible from the noise level of the vinyl LP

[Audio Advent]

Hehe, I'm glad you like my drummer joke. :)

My direct studio experience is mostly small scale - amateur stuff to friends renting their studio and time out for small bands - all spend a lot of time making sure the signal chain sounds the best they can. My larger experience of studio owners and engineers comes from reading forums and magazines for a decade or more and reading them talk about their choices and discussion and nerdy agonising over what to spend their money on whether that be miniscule budgets or multi-thousand pound ones. I've never met a serious studio engineer who has never paid a lot of attention to the signal chain. That applies to small studio owners and the big names on forums and in mags.

Ok, I guess "studio engineer" is a broad term that can encompas people who just walk in to their place of work (a studio) and go home and just use what's there, have no say and don't care as long as it works.

I know what you mean about recording for vinyl and can see where you're coming from... However, this is not what is being discussed here at all, as I keep saying, you seem to be thinking about things from completely the wrong angle.

You are not recording FOR vinyl here, you are recording all the sounds of your hifi. People agonise greatly over the sound of cartridges and phonostages and the real differences those make and they hear. If you want to capture what you're hearing when playing vinyl, you want to capture the sound of a Koetsu Rosewood on a Mission Mechanic on a Rockport Sirrus through a etc etc etc - you get the idea, then the very LAST thing you want to hear is the imposing sound of your noisy internal soundcard or the sonic signature of any anti-alias filters, conversion and recording processes at all. The better your recording chain, the more of your audiophile setup you'll capture when digitising your vinyl and the more indistinguishable your digital recordings will be from listening to the vinyl itself.

[vegman1973]

Hi guys, thanks for all the input. Sorry it's caused such a debate I didn't realise it was such a tender subject. I've been doing some research and have come across a piece of hardware called the Tascam Da 3000. It seems to be a really good bit of kit that can record at double dsd
I'm still only in the looking stage of things. But if I'm going to do something I do like to do it properly and don't mind paying a bit more for great results after all it is all about the music

[Stratmangler]

The Tascam will be a good piece of kit.
Tascam know their market well, so it will give good results.
Whether or not the -60dB analogue inputs will be low enough to prevent input clipping is something that you'd need to try out - I have a Tascam DR-07 MKII recorder, and it shows input signal clipping at the -48dB setting, so with my cart/phono stage it's not up to the job on its own. On its own it needs more attenuation on the recorder input.

[dave2010]

Good point about the RIAA - can be done afterwards, just get the raw cartridge signal digitised.

How do the output voltages of carts and mics compare? In the same ball park or is a mic more akin to a high output cart?I suspect that you'd get better results having a dedicated phono preamp with the correct RIAA curves built in - possibly switchable.

I used to use a cheap Soundblaster USB external card with Audacity for recording - mostly from the radio, but should work with a good vinyl system if there's a high quality signal output. That model was only 16 bits - though the results were quite good. They can be picked up for (almost) peanuts on eBay from time to time. Later on Soundblaster produced 24 bit models, but I never bothered to get one of those. One problem with using external sound cards is that it's quite easy to get induced hum and interference into the recordings. This can come from the PSU, or from crossing power cables, or by not using well screened inputs. Forget about getting the last bit of the (in my case 16 bit) data - you're more likely to get noise in from the cabling which will be far larger than any few bit errors in the digital domain. Some hum and noise can usefully be removed using noise removal in Audacity, but basically it's best not to get any in in the first place. I suspect that worrying too much about the digital side of things is not going to give a lot of mileage if the analogue side isn't 99.99%. It will be very important to get a high quality analogue input feed, and to keep it clean right up to the ADC. Then having a good ADC will make a difference, but if the signal is compromised before it gets to the ADC then there's not so much point, is there? From the original posting, I figure that what is wanted is very high quality - not simply "satisfactory" or "adequate".

Another crazy solution is to go via some old Sony Minidisc devices, or the last few HiMD models. The Sony software is pretty lousy, but actually the results can be good or in some cases acceptable - particularly using a HiMD model as an ADC. Some models could be used simply as an ADC, but if a HiMD Mniidsc is used and a recording made, then it is possible (sometimes) to upload to a computer file. Not really recommended at all. Clearly "standard" Minidiscs would be compromised by the ATRAC recording, but the HiMD models wouldn't have that limitation. However, trying to deal with the old hardware and **** software is definitely not suggested as a solution for anyone who doesn't already have some of that kit in a drawer somewhere. If anyone has used that kind of kit, they'll know what I mean.

There must surely be modern recorders which can function as ADCs, which would allow recordings to be made - though how good they are I can't say. I think some may have LINE IN inputs, though the Zoom Q2 HD unit I've been using recently only has LINE OUT and USB. The USB possibilty could work with some form of USB converter, though it's really intended for use with USB mics - or using an iPad as a USB mic - which probably would compromise quality too much. However, some of the recorders - not perhaps this one - but Zoom do others, as do Sony - may be good, and will record to SDHC cards which can then be used to upload to a computer.

PS: There's also this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMTpvr9HXeI mentioned in a new post on this site which I just spotted. Again, not really recommended, but I used to be able to make very good tapes using a Sony cassette deck - virtually indistinguishable from CDs (really) but since you guys are trying to do better than that probably not too relevant. Then you'd still have the added problem of converting tape to digital and some of the very cheap converters you see advertiased are total **** and a waste of money.

[Stratmangler]

Thinking about the problems with overloading the input on my DR-07 MkII I read the manual again, and then the solution to the overload problem just smacked me in the face.
If I route the phono stage into my headphone amp I get to control the output volume, and can reduce it to a point where the recording input is not being overloaded.
I have appropriate cabling and adapters, so I'm going to give it a whirl :)