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Firebottle
16-10-2015, 15:39
Getting rather exited now, trip out to the bake off tomorrow.

Just assembled all the kit I'm taking:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050192.jpg

Full report to follow after the week end :yay: :grouphug:

brian2957
16-10-2015, 15:57
Where are you going mate and are you seeing anyone ' dodgy ' or 'cagey ' . ;)
Enjoy yourself , please keep us posted and mind the piccies :D

CageyH
16-10-2015, 17:47
:whistle:

Just packing the car now, so an early start does not wake up the littl'un.
Need to pick the CDs in a moment.
Vinyl has already been selected, with a bit of a mix.

Really looking forwards to this, as I think your pre and power combo will really make the Frugels sing.

Bon route.

A demain!

brian2957
16-10-2015, 17:51
So who's going to tell us where you're all going :confused:

Marco
16-10-2015, 18:23
The annual cross-dressers convention, what else? Ooh-la-la! :lol:

Marco.

CageyH
16-10-2015, 19:11
The annual cross-dressers convention, what else? Ooh-la-la! :lol:

Marco.

I'll save you your usual seat...

Marco
16-10-2015, 20:09
:D :eyebrows:

Marco.

Floyddroid
16-10-2015, 21:26
Enjoy chaps. Any get together playing music on decent gear is a joy.

RichB
17-10-2015, 08:32
Pics!

CageyH
17-10-2015, 09:41
Let the bake off begin.....

Jimbo
17-10-2015, 09:51
Have a good day chaps - take some spare fuses Alan:lol:

walpurgis
17-10-2015, 10:01
Sounds like it should be interesting. I shall await the report (and photos! :)).

CageyH
17-10-2015, 21:02
Just back from a great day out.
More comments tomorrow, after a bit of a sleep.

Marco
17-10-2015, 21:53
Cool. Hope you took some pics! ;)

Marco.

CageyH
18-10-2015, 11:10
No. I took my speakers and a few other bits. :ner:

Oldpinkman
18-10-2015, 12:14
So how did you enjoy hearing proper speakers instead? I trust the 57's were on form. No prospect of nicking them either - even though Gordon's hearing is suffering, since Ronnie has already laid claim I think

From our absence, you will note we still haven't sorted out this bloody move...:steam:

Hopefully see you before Christmas - maybe with a new toy from AK for you to try :cool:

CageyH
18-10-2015, 12:25
Pictures (apologies for the poor quality - they were taken with my phone).

The vinyl front ends:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/720/21649800994_028afb89ea_d.jpg

My Technics SL1200 and Alan's GL75.

A selection of Firebottle goodies:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5620/22246440376_4ef8195e9f_d.jpg

Opening the bake off, we have my system for me to get a good reference.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5630/22259747212_7ff883b9a3_d.jpg

My modified Technics, running a 2M Black -> Graham Slee Reflex M -> Project Pre-Box RS -> Graham Slee Proprius Mono Blocks -> Electric Beach Frugel 3

Later we moved on to speakers of a different nature:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5721/22084823408_3035ec79c9_d.jpg

That was all of the pictures I took, and they are pretty poor.
I'll wait until Alan posts his comments and pictures before making any comments on the gear we listened to.

brian2957
18-10-2015, 12:46
Plenty of room for the systems and speakers to strut their stuff mate . Looking good , and probably sounding excellent . Thanks for posting this Kevin :)

CageyH
18-10-2015, 13:19
Yes, Gordon has a massive room.
I was concerned how well the Frugels would cope with so much space to fill.

I will let the others fill in their thoughts.
I do think we have another MC5000 convert though!

CageyH
18-10-2015, 13:22
So how did you enjoy hearing proper speakers instead? I trust the 57's were on form. No prospect of nicking them either - even though Gordon's hearing is suffering, since Ronnie has already laid claim I think

From our absence, you will note we still haven't sorted out this bloody move...:steam:

Hopefully see you before Christmas - maybe with a new toy from AK for you to try :cool:

To be honest, I am not sure they were working at 100% or if it was because we had been listening to the Frugels beforehand. I really enjoyed the imaging and soundstage that they produced, but they seemed a little lacking at the top end.

Gordon Steadman
18-10-2015, 13:37
To be honest, I am not sure they were working at 100% or if it was because we had been listening to the Frugels beforehand. I really enjoyed the imaging and soundstage that they produced, but they seemed a little lacking at the top end.

No, they were working fine:ner:. Even Alan, who is used to the 57's said they sounded 'dark' when we first heard them after the Frugels. People who are used to er.....modern, bright sounding systems, often find the Quads dull, whereas to me, they sound natural and unforced. I found it a huge relief to get them back into the music room, connected to the Leak and get lost in the music at comfortable levels for me - probably ear splitting for others.

More anon, after Alan posts his report...in full.....with three part harmony etc etc. Come on Alan, you must be home by now:)

CageyH
18-10-2015, 13:41
They are very different to the Frugels.
To be honest, I think I needed more time with them - but that is my fault for leaving early!

Oldpinkman
18-10-2015, 14:11
To be honest, I am not sure they were working at 100% or if it was because we had been listening to the Frugels beforehand. I really enjoyed the imaging and soundstage that they produced, but they seemed a little lacking at the top end.

Electrostatics always sound dull (not bright) or lacking in treble to non-ES listeners. Actually they sound lacking in treble even to afficionados at times. But the treble is all there - its just that dry "cleanness". I'll bring a proper pair of electrostatics down soon - hopefully, one day, maybe...

Gordon Steadman
18-10-2015, 14:13
Electrostatics always sound dull (not bright) or lacking in treble to non-ES listeners. Actually they sound lacking in treble even to afficionados at times. But the treble is all there - its just that dry "cleanness". I'll bring a proper pair of electrostatics down soon - hopefully, one day, maybe...

Sorry Richard but you will have to bring your own. The 57s aren't leaving the house:ner:

Marco
18-10-2015, 14:30
All the 57s I've heard (and there have been a few) have never sounded 'dark' or dull. Like you say, in that area, including (and especially) the midrange, they sound realistic. It's at the other end (bass frequencies) whether they're lacking a little, compared with speakers capable of delivering genuinely (lifelike) deep bass, realistic scale and dynamics.

Also, Quad statics don't respond well to being played loudly. *Those* are their real limitations, not sounding dull, in my experience, unless the system they're connected to sounds dull. However, much depends on what type of music you listen to (and if you like listening to music loudly), in terms of whether the above limitations are indeed any kind of limitations at all! :)

Me? I'd rather have speakers that have less bass, but believable bass, than that produced by many of the 'pumped up' and exaggerated bright sounding 'boom boxes' produced today! :exactly:

Marco.

Firebottle
18-10-2015, 15:42
More anon, after Alan posts his report...in full.....with three part harmony etc etc. Come on Alan, you must be home by now:)

Called in at other friends on the way back and now just recording last weeks Paul Jones show on the computer at the moment (it was a belter) so report to follow.
Had a lovely PM from Kevin saying how much he enjoyed it, 'twas a great day.

Have patience......................

CageyH
18-10-2015, 18:33
I have been chatting to Steve at Electric Beach about my findings following the Bake Off.
It seems that you have not heard the FH3s at their best, as I had removed some stuffing from the wrong part of the speaker :rolleyes: so they were a bit bright.
Stuffing back in, and "much more better enough" as they say in the SW.

When is "Bake Off 2" happening???

Firebottle
18-10-2015, 18:37
So you all now know the bake off was held at Gordon's gaff, and excellent bonhomie was enjoyed.

It is sort of half way for me and Kevin (a bit further for Kevin) but it was good to meet up and play with lots of kit :thumbsup:

As you have seen two complete setups were on offer, albeit with Gordon's 57's rather than mine, but all grist to the mill. I thought I would take copious notes as there wasn't a snowballs chance of me remembering all the combinations :scratch:

Firstly all the kit was taken up to Gordon's big room, it would have been a right royal squash if we had tried it in the music room. An early picture of the kit before all the mains supplies had been installed:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Oct%2015%20Bake%20Off/P1050193.jpg

As Kevin has said we started with his system, I for one was very keen to hear the Frugel FH3's, having read and heard about them on various web sites.
The set-up was
Technics SL1200 (much modified)/FX 1200 Funk arm/2M Black MM cart,
-> Graham Slee Reflex M -> Project Pre-Box RS -> Graham Slee Proprius Mono Blocks -> Electric Beach Frugel 3

All MC5000 interconnects, a first for me, but a good one.

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Oct%2015%20Bake%20Off/P1050194.jpg

My first impression was fantastic clarity and focus, but slightly different overall feelings later on.
Anyway the music enjoyed through the system was all on vinyl:

Rodrigo y Gabriela, side 2 (new artists to Gordon)
Ron Carter - Yellow and Green (can't recall which side)
Tracy Chapman - Crossroads. Such a distinctive voice and not diluted in ant way by the equipment set-up.

Next came a change around to
Technics SL1200 (much modified)/FX 1200 Funk arm/2M Black MM cart,
-> Firebottle KIN pre -> Fierbottle AIR power amp -> Electric Beach Frugel 3

Now the impression was lots more low end 'heft' and a bit of disbelief that this sound was coming from a 4 inch (?) driver.
The thing that struck me was a real 'cohesiveness' to the sound stage, just a fantastic integration of the full spectrum, I'm sure the real plus points of using a full range single driver :)

In retrospect the Graham Slee Proprius Mono Blocks seemed somewhat bight in comparison to the Firebottle AIR's grip of the speakers, particularly the lower registers.

We then tried the same set-up into Gordon's 'Bitza' speakers, made up from a motley collection of drive units and tuned by ear by Gordon.

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Oct%2015%20Bake%20Off/P1050195.jpg

A lot more low end, but rather expected given that the Bitzas have a 12 inch woofer.
Another quick change to the OuTLaw OTL power amp driving the Bitzas.

A bit of loss of bass extension and control but lovely clear mid and top registers.
Unfortunately curtailed on listening due to a dry joint on one of the crossovers but further listening was done on the Sunday.


Another kit re-arrangement now, swapping over to the other TT.

Goldring Lenco GL75/Acutex 312
-> Firebottle KIN pre -> Graham Slee Proprius Mono Blocks -> Electric Beach Frugel 3

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Oct%2015%20Bake%20Off/P1050196.jpg

Now this sounded somewhat bright, we swapped over to the AIR power amp and immediately to my mind there was more image depth/slam and bass control.
Music played in this session was:

Paul Simon - Graceland, a fantastic album only helped along by the impressive production.
Stan Getz - Girl from Ipanema. Sublime sax sound ;)

Had another quick swap around back to the Technics front end. Music played was:

George Ezra - Wanted on Voyage
It was very bright on the first few tracks, I think down to the somewhat clinical presentation of the Technics and 2M Black and the brightnes of the Graham Slee monoblocks, all IMHO of course.
We then made a comparison between the Firebottle KIN phono section and the Reflex M phono stage into a line input on the KIN.

The consensus was a slightly bassier sound with the Reflex M and a slightly more open sound with the KIN stage.
Dire Straight - Communique was the music of choice for this session.

We then tried the output of the Reflex M directly into the Firebottle AIR power amp.

[Just a small aside, the first AIR power amp has been assembled with an input level control. This is going to be changed to a simple mute switch]

Very acceptable performance, to me just losing a smidgen of 'air' around the instruments.


Now for a big change of front end, to a CD player.

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Oct%2015%20Bake%20Off/P1050197.jpg

Equipment line up:
Marantz CD63SI -> Firebottle KIN pre -> Fierbottle AIR power amp -> Electric Beach Frugel 3

Music played
Sade - Soldier of Love, one of my favourite tracks, well received by Kevin.
Bonnie Rait - Love me like a man, another of my favourites.
Paganini -Allegro con brio
Muse - Madness. Oops we overdid the volume a little and the FH3's were hitting their stops :eek:

FH3's in motion:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Oct%2015%20Bake%20Off/P1050199.jpg

Very very acceptable sound stage and overall musicality, I'm definitely saying I could live with these FH3's, beautiful finish as well :D

We then tried the OuTLaw OTL into the Frugels to give Kevin a flavour of valve OTL performance.
Peter Gabriel - Hit was the album spinning for this.

Lacked a bit of low end heft and drive compared to the solid state AIR, but really to be expected given the differences in technologies.

Gordons ESL57's were then brought up into the big room and tried firstly with the OuTLaw OTL and then the AIR power amp.

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Oct%2015%20Bake%20Off/P1050201.jpg

As stated earlier in the thread after the Frugels the 57's appeared a bit down on the upper registers.

For me when the AIR was substituted there was more space/clarity/depth to the sound.
Music played for this session was

Mahavishnu Orchestra - You know you know,
Charlie Byrd - The guitar artistry of .. ( brilliant )


I'm definately a convert to MC5000 interconects :wow:
I'll add in the brief Sunday morning session later..........

Great stuff :)

Firebottle
18-10-2015, 18:51
I have been chatting to Steve at Electric Beach about my findings following the Bake Off.
It seems that you have not heard the FH3s at their best, as I had removed some stuffing from the wrong part of the speaker :rolleyes: so they were a bit bright.
Stuffing back in, and "much more better enough" as they say in the SW.

When is "Bake Off 2" happening???

Now that is interesting Kevin, even better :yay:

CageyH
18-10-2015, 19:10
It was a great day out for me.
The highlight being the AIR power amp. An impressive piece of kit.
"Bake Off 2" needs to happen to see what my Pre does with this into the Frugels. ;)

Gordon Steadman
18-10-2015, 19:25
Nice write up Alan.

Covered the day pretty well I think. Clearly, the state of my ears had some effect on how I heard things as to have the sound at a level suitable for me to hear all the details would have annoyed the neighbours and deafened Alan and Kevin into the bargain.

The music choices were great and I heard a few new things.

However, a few points regarding the equipment. The Frugels are beautifully built. Superb finish and the most attractive colour. Quite how they do what they do given that silly little driver I don't know. It is interesting that Kevin has added that the balance was wrong as I found that the treble was too incisive and spoiled my enjoyment to a degree.I assumed that it was just a symptom of modern speaker design. The bass was impressive considering the driver but for me just lacked the heft that a nice big cone offers. I missed the woody rasp of the cello on the Paganini. The notes were there but not the instrument. More of which later.

Alan's comments about the various electronics combinations sum up my feelings. His new kit is impressive and musical.

The one thing that surprised me was the Technics. I found it very cold and sterile, probably not helped by the top end of the Frugels. No doubt there will be those that say this is because it is accurate and does what CD does. Well, I preferred the CD63 though this system and that is hardly top of the range. I also preferred Alan's GL75.

None of this is in any way a real criticism and probably represents our different expectations. The imaging and soundstage were excellent but I would rather have a mono system that was tonally accurate that the most HI-FI of hi-fi systems that missed convincing me that I was listening to a real instrument.

So yesterday was very interesting. The equipment was all high quality and the music was excellent.

Now....Alan mentioned this morning's session. I re-soldered the dry joints in the bitsas (Chinese 12", Celestion HF1300, KEF T27 as supertweeter). Alan's amps and GL75 and some more tunes. Sound turned up a bit:eyebrows:

For me, this was the best sound of the weekend. Suddenly, I believed in what I was listening to. When a drum was smacked you could hear it all, guitars were delicate and the decay obvious and saxophone made the back of the neck tingle. Smooth treble and solid bass and it was shame that Alan had to pack up and go home. The Quad 306 is now on duty and good though it is, a Firebottle it ain't.

Mind you, when I went back to the Quads and the Leak, I realised why they have been together now for 40 years (well 27 actually)

A fun weekend.

Marco
19-10-2015, 07:34
Interesting report, chaps, and glad you all seemed to have fun, which is what it's all about! :)

One thing that struck me, looking at the pictures, is the lack of any proper equipment supports [offering effective isolation] for the gear, especially the turntables, which look like they were just plonked on some kind of wooden 'steps', unlikely allowing the kit in question to reveal its full potential. I presume that said 'steps' were solid, and not hollow?

As it was your gaff, Gordon, is that what you usually sit all your gear on? Just an observation! :cool:

Marco.

CageyH
19-10-2015, 07:49
My SL1200 was sat on Isonoes and SDS Isofeet.
The steps seemed pretty solid to me.

Gordon Steadman
19-10-2015, 07:59
Interesting report, chaps, and glad you all seemed to have fun, which is what it's all about! :)

One thing that struck me, looking at the pictures, is the lack of any proper equipment supports [offering effective isolation] for the gear, especially the turntables, which look like they were just plonked on some kind of wooden 'steps', unlikely allowing the kit in question to reveal its full potential. I presume that said 'steps' were solid, and not hollow?

As it was your gaff, Gordon, is that what you usually sit all your gear on? Just an observation! :cool:

Marco.

The room we used is not yet finished. It is intended to be the lounge when done. I don't use it for music at the mo but it was better up there with all the equipment than the 5 metre x 4 metre music room downstairs. The steps are thin ply on wooden frames and work quite well. I have never noticed any feedback problems and in any case, these days, I tend to prefer wooden supports to any of the designer stands. They have been relegated to bedroom systems.

Any of my comments have to have the fact of my hearing loss applied as a filter of course. My subsequent listening to the bitsas and Quads was at a much, much......much higher level than during the main event.

Marco
19-10-2015, 08:02
My SL1200 was sat on Isonoes and SDS Isofeet.
The steps seemed pretty solid to me.

Ok, fair enough. I just presumed that Gordon would've used some sort of 'rack' for his kit, perhaps a wooden one that he's built, which could've been used to house the gear more effectively, IMO.

T/Ts in particular, especially the Techy, as it has no form of proper suspension, are incredibly sensitive to the effects of vibration. That fact has really hit home since housing mine on a wall shelf...

Marco.

Marco
19-10-2015, 08:09
The room we used is not yet finished. It is intended to be the lounge when done. I don't use it for music at the mo but it was better up there with all the equipment than the 5 metre x 4 metre music room downstairs. The steps are thin ply on wooden frames and work quite well. I have never noticed any feedback problems and in any case, these days, I tend to prefer wooden supports to any of the designer stands. They have been relegated to bedroom systems.

Any of my comments have to have the fact of my hearing loss applied as a filter of course. My subsequent listening to the bitsas and Quads was at a much, much......much higher level than during the main event.

I hear ya... I also guessed correctly about the wooden supports, lol, which IMO would've worked better than the steps. Also, I wouldn't presume that a bigger room is necessarily better, unless you mean that there wasn't sufficient room to house the folk who attended, which in that case is a different matter.

If you could've gotten the people attending comfortably into your normal room, not only could you have used your proper equipment supports, but some of the smaller speakers might not have struggled (as appears to have been the case) to sound as good as they can. I'm also rather surprised that Kevin's Techy sounded as described, which isn't right...

Anyway, just some observations! :)

Marco.

Gordon Steadman
19-10-2015, 08:31
The only feedback would have been airborne. The speakers were either on top of a solid 800mm thick wall or on the floor in front of the wall. As I said, I could detect no sign of feedback at all. Certainly the GL75 showed no signs.

I keep coming back to my feeling for the difference between hi-fi and music. Alan described the Technics as clinical and that is how it appeared to me. I look for a bit more sonority and tonal subtlety. It couldn't be faulted on its precision or clarity.

I have seen quite a bit of criticism of the GL75 and its ilk over the years as the latest thing blows it into the weeds. Bollocks says I. Cracking player and very similar in presentation to my Dual 1019 allowing for the differences in cartridge. In fact the Acutex makes me wonder if I would be better buying one than spending a fortune on a Jico stylus for the Technics 205.

The weekend shows me that I still have the interest if not the ears. A curse on genetic inheritance.

Firebottle
19-10-2015, 08:31
Now....Alan mentioned this morning's session. I re-soldered the dry joints in the bitsas (Chinese 12", Celestion HF1300, KEF T27 as supertweeter). Alan's amps and GL75 and some more tunes. Sound turned up a bit:eyebrows:

It was a great sound through the Bitsas, plus having it LOUD really let the music stretch it's legs so to speak.

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Oct%2015%20Bake%20Off/P1050202.jpg

We played the Rodrigo y Gabriela album again, very enjoyable :)

The weekend was made all the more interesting by the mix of technologies / approaches that could be mixed up to make a system.
Single driver, multi driver, and electrostatic speakers as an example, none being perfect but it's great to be able to appreciate the plus points of each.

Contrasting solid state and valve gear is a perennial interest to me, and after my first listen to the Graham Slee Reflex M phono stage I thought it was a real star performer.
Now though I'm very much in the hybrid camp, taking the best performance of valves and transistors (particularly FETs) and combining to give best performance.

The Firebottle AIR proves the concept and I'm glad it has had a wider airing (:doh: sorry)..............

:cool:

Marco
19-10-2015, 08:47
The only feedback would have been airborne. The speakers were either on top of a solid 800mm thick wall or on the floor in front of the wall. As I said, I could detect no sign of feedback at all. Certainly the GL75 showed no signs.


The GL75 I suspect is better equipped to reduce the effects of feedback. Did you try tapping the top-plate of the Techy, when the needle was on a record and the amp turned up reasonably loudly? If so, given where the T/T was situated, I would've expected you to have been able to play drums on it ;)


I keep coming back to my feeling for the difference between hi-fi and music. Alan described the Technics as clinical and that is how it appeared to me. I look for a bit more sonority and tonal subtlety. It couldn't be faulted on its precision or clarity.


Yup, but the point is the Technics shouldn't sound clinical [mine certainly doesn't] if* it's set up properly, used in the right system, and crucially, is sympathetically partnered with the right 'bits'. Specifically, that means tonearm and cartridge, but in the case of the Techy, with all the aftermarket modifications available for it, that also means the right platter, bearing and PSU.

Now I'm sure that Kevin's T/T doesn't sound clinical in his own system (or if it does, in terms of the above, he's made the wrong choices), so I wouldn't be forming any conclusive opinions on the Techy until first hearing it at Kevin's place. In that respect, perhaps a session there should be next on the cards? :)

Marco.

CageyH
19-10-2015, 08:59
There was absolutely no sign of feedback through the Vinyl front ends. I think Gordon would have a different opinion of the Technics if I had fitted a less "HiFi" sounding cartridge. The 2M Black is very clinical, but I enjoy the clean sound and separation/ soundstage it gives.

I was impressed by the Bitsa speakers. For deep, realistic bass there is no replacement for displacement, and the 12" cones certainly did a good job. The mid and top end was very good too. I preferred what these did to my limited exposure to the quads. There seems to be a bit of resonance either in the quads, or something in the room when we were listening to the music. I didn't have time to investigate what it was and I found this a bit distracting.

The conclusion I came to was that I needed more time to listen to Quads electrostatics. I can see why they are so well regarded as the tonal balance was superb as long as you are sat in the sweet spot.

It was a thoroughly enjoyable day for me. The hospitality was superb and I learnt a lot from the day. It was clear to me that people all have different requirements/expectations from their systems to suit their musical tastes. I heard some new music that I thoroughly enjoyed. I met two members of AoS, enjoyed their company in a day of musical enjoyment. I just wish I lived a bit closer, as out of choice I had a 700km round trip in a day. I must be mad, but as I said,nit was thoroughly enjoyable.

If a bake off 2 happens, I will try a different cartridge in the Techy. Something less HiFi....
I have also tamed the top end of the FH3s since returning home after advice from Steve at Electric Beach. He really knows these speakers and his after sales customer service is superb. I will be interested to see what the guys think of them now.

Gordon Steadman
19-10-2015, 09:00
The GL75 I suspect is better equipped to reduce the effects of feedback. Did you try tapping the top-plate of the Techy when the needle was on a record, and the amp turned up reasonably loudly? If so, given where the T/T was situated, I would've expected you to have been able to play drums on it ;)


I wouldn't have been interested in doing such a thing. We were listening to music.:eyebrows:

The step is carefully isolated and damped from direct contact with the wall and floor. The whole thing was designed to have equipment sat on it and the Quads will (or would have
been:() on the solid wall in front of it. That room was one of the reasons we bought the house. It goes back 8 metres and up to a mezzanine with the ceiling sloped up to 5 metre height at the back.

I suspect I will keep the music downstairs now so I can get adequate volume sitting about 2 metres from the Quads. Ho hum.

Marco
19-10-2015, 09:06
I wouldn't have been interested in doing such a thing. We were listening to music.:eyebrows:


Yes of course, but part of the purpose of these events (at least the ones I've been to) is to assess the kit, and consequently offer an opinion on that to other members reading, which they may find useful. I suspect that what I've highlighted is a reason as to why the Techy sounded, shall we say, a little 'off colour'.

You can't just spend the whole time enjoying yourselves, you know... You have to work a bit! :lol: ;)


The step is carefully isolated and damped from direct contact with the wall and floor. The whole thing was designed to have equipment sat on it and the Quads will (or would have
been:() on the solid wall in front of it. That room was one of the reasons we bought the house. It goes back 8 metres and up to a mezzanine with the ceiling sloped up to 5 metre height at the back.


Ok, I accept that, although Techies, IME, do need careful citing, for hi-fi purposes. Anyway, perhaps some of the smaller speakers used would've been 'happier' in your downstairs room? It's maybe one to consider next time....

Marco.

Marco
19-10-2015, 09:24
There was absolutely no sign of feedback through the Vinyl front ends. I think Gordon would have a different opinion of the Technics if I had fitted a less "HiFi" sounding cartridge. The 2M Black is very clinical, but I enjoy the clean sound and separation/ soundstage it gives.


Ok, but did you try what I said? If not, you wouldn't have known, unless the feedback was so obvious you could hear it.

If you didn't try it, and by tapping the top-plate (as described) you were met with a dull 'thwack', it would've unquestionably muddied the sound. That type of interference is what proper equipment supports and wall shelves are designed to eradicate - and direct drive T/Ts are very susceptible to it.

I hear ya about the 2M black, and completely agree (personally I hate that type of 'hi-fi' sound), which is why the only Ortofon cartridges I like are SPUs! ;)

Marco.

Gordon Steadman
19-10-2015, 09:45
There is a distinct possibility that not everyone likes the sound of the Technics, feedback or not. It's not the best deck for all, just those that like what it does. I demand different things of my music system clearly, than Kevin does.

I tried again just now with the Quad 34/306, Sansui DD with ADC cart and the bitsas and it still sounds terrific, the music just draws you in and you forget you are listening to a hi-fi.

I'm not attacking anybody's preferences, merely stating my own.

Gordon Steadman
19-10-2015, 09:54
Here's a view - naff - of the room from the mezzanine.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/640/22310404851_4271e0fecf_b.jpg

awkwardbydesign
19-10-2015, 10:02
I have been chatting to Steve at Electric Beach about my findings following the Bake Off.
It seems that you have not heard the FH3s at their best, as I had removed some stuffing from the wrong part of the speaker :rolleyes: so they were a bit bright.
Stuffing back in, and "much more better enough" as they say in the SW.

When is "Bake Off 2" happening???

Steve brought a pair of the Frugels round to my house a couple of years ago. They were being reviewed by a friend who has a small and bright room, whereas mine is slightly larger and overdamped. As you say, changing the damping (at the top of the line) made quite a difference. My room needed less, the other room needed more.

wee tee cee
19-10-2015, 10:03
Sounds like you chaps had a cracking bake off. Great reading about all the different kit. Very interesting to get different peoples take on the same set ups.

Marco
19-10-2015, 10:16
There is a distinct possibility that not everyone likes the sound of the Technics, feedback or not.

I 100% agree.

However, like the T/T or not, it frustrates me when the Technics is described as 'clinical' sounding (although I don't doubt it's a justified comment, based on what you heard), when I know from experience it only sounds that way when something isn't right (usually synergy within the partnering equipment) :)

And unfortunately the more folk who hear it like that, the more that particular myth is perpetrated.

Marco.

struth
19-10-2015, 10:17
Here's a view - naff - of the room from the mezzanine.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/640/22310404851_4271e0fecf_b.jpg

Thats a big room.. All bare walls too.. Might be the acoustics were "different" to what some were used to.

Marco
19-10-2015, 10:23
Indeed, it all looks very 'live' (and largely devoid of soft furnishings), which I suspect was a contributory factor, in terms of some of the results heard.

Marco.

Gordon Steadman
19-10-2015, 10:37
Thats a big room.. All bare walls too.. Might be the acoustics were "different" to what some were used to.

The acoustics are pretty neutral I find. It's big enough to not suffer too much from reflections although obviously, any space will have its effect. The clinical brightness didn't occur with the GL75 so, as Kevin suggested could well be a combination of the cartridge and the Frugels making things worse for me.

Whatever, it was a fun weekend.

CageyH
19-10-2015, 11:21
As Gordon says, the room seems pretty neutral.
It's a big space for a small driver to fill, but the Frugels did a great job.
The lack of stuffing certainly affected the sound, as did the lack of spirit level on my tonearm. The 2M black was running a bit light, which would not help matters either. A comedy of errors on my part.

The sound from my SL1200 was really clean, open and cohesive. Not something I would expect from a deck affected by airborne feedback. Gordon prefers a different sound. That is all there is to it.

I had fun, enjoyed the day out and broke my "bake off" virginity.

struth
19-10-2015, 11:27
Clinical "hifi"carts are not everyones cup of tea including me so as you say that may have been the deciding factor especially with the speakers not being bang on.

Jimbo
19-10-2015, 11:40
Interesting stuff chaps.

I pick up from the comments made that the Lenco GL75 sounded pretty good. I am not surprised as I have just fettled one at it does sound very 'right' as an analogue front end.

The issues you may have been having with the 2M black sounding bright and 'HIFI' as Marco suggested may have been as a result of critical set up, although I would not dispute the 2M sounds a bit forward and immediate. Certainly running it light does make it sound edgy and bright. Crank up the weight and get the azimuth and VTA bang on and it sounds superb.

When your over at Christmas Alan we can have a Lenco bake off (MM vs MC) and as you know my system is highly revealing and the truth will be laid bare.:eyebrows:

When I compared the Lenco to the VPI/2M black I would agree with some of you findings in your French Bake (Baguette?) Off:)

Marco
19-10-2015, 11:43
The issues you may have been having with the 2M black sounding bright and 'HIFI' as Marco suggested may have been as a result of critical set up, although I would not dispute the 2M sounds a bit forward and immediate.

Yup. My own modded SL-1210, fitted with the Denon DL-S1, certainly didn't sound 'clinical' at NEBO, did it? :)

Synergy is everything....

Marco.

Gordon Steadman
19-10-2015, 11:47
As Gordon says, the room seems pretty neutral.
It's a big space for a small driver to fill, but the Frugels did a great job.
The lack of stuffing certainly affected the sound, as did the lack of spirit level on my tonearm. The 2M black was running a bit light, which would not help matters either. A comedy of errors on my part.

The sound from my SL1200 was really clean, open and cohesive. Not something I would expect from a deck affected by airborne feedback. Gordon prefers a different sound. That is all there is to it.

I had fun, enjoyed the day out and broke my "bake off" virginity.
Astonishing job seems nearer the mark. I still can't believe that there is just one tichy little driver making all that noise!

As an aside, on DIY audio a while ago, they had a sort of bake off, comparing single drivers from different manufacturers. I was easily able to tell them apart - on headphones - but found that all of them had a similar treble quality that I found disturbing. The sound is clearly something that goes with a driver than needs to do so much.

Jimbo
19-10-2015, 11:52
Yup. My own modded SL-1210, fitted with the Denon DL-S1, certainly didn't sound 'clinical' at NEBO, did it? :)

Synergy is everything....

Marco.

Absolutely right Marco - 'Synergy' is the key thing and your SL-1210 sounded fabulous at last years NEBO. A benchmark for vinyl playback as far as I am concerned.

Is it paying another visit to NEBO 6 by any chance? :)

Marco
19-10-2015, 11:59
Lol, nope. You'll hear it 'in situ', when you visit :)

This time it'll be passive preamp fun, and listening to how the Goldpoint stacks up against other units on demo. I might take the Croft, too.

I'm particularly looking forward to hearing the NVA passive again, this time in a different context from where the Croft creamed it at Jason (Figlet's) bake-off last year, in conjunction with NVA power amps.

Marco.

CageyH
19-10-2015, 15:20
I have just come back from work and the wife and daughter are out, so I get to really use my system with a decent volume level. In my room, with the tracking weight sorted and the stuffing back in + a little bit extra for good measure the brightness we all heard at Chateau Nodrog see,s to be gone.

I use the back wall of my room for bass reinforcement, and it sounds quite lovely to my ears. Possibly the best I have heard them, so it looks like the bake off has opened them right up. That and a couple of set up tweaks has really got them singing. If I would not have gone to the bake off, I would have continued in ignorant bliss, so thanks again for the feedback chaps. It has helped me immensely.

I'll have to try some cello music later, and see if I can detect any of the rasp that was evidently missing on Saturday.

brian2957
19-10-2015, 15:30
You should be making the dinner instead of farting about with hifi boyo :)

CageyH
19-10-2015, 15:58
:lol:

Where is the fun in that?

brian2957
19-10-2015, 16:02
It's not meant to be fun all the time . You had your fun at the weekend :lol:

Oldpinkman
19-10-2015, 16:29
I'd be interested when I am down. I thought your TT sounded pretty good when I was last down Kevin - and its gone up a level since then. Having gone direct from a GL75 almost identical to Alans, to my first PT with a shite Linn LV5 arm on it - the stock GL75 is "nice" but not exactly open , transparent, or detailed. I just wish I was bringing the AHB2 too. Maybe this bloody sale will go through and leave me enough pocket money to buy my own (and an espresso machine).

Those Frugals sound interesting. I'll have both my speakers with me, and a nice big room...

One day :(

Marco
19-10-2015, 16:35
I thought your TT sounded pretty good when I was last down Kevin - and its gone up a level since then. Having gone direct from a GL75 almost identical to Alans, to my first PT with a shite Linn LV5 arm on it - the stock GL75 is "nice" but not exactly open , transparent, or detailed.

See, that's the thing: do you want a record player that reveals how the music has *actually* been recorded, or one that romantically portrays its own version of that, under the guise of 'musicality'?

I know which one I'd choose! ;)

For me, it's about having a T/T that behaves both as an accurate transcription device, and something that you can relax and enjoy listening to music on. Achieving only one of those goals is simply not enough.

Marco.

CageyH
19-10-2015, 17:13
I am now happier with the sound of my TT than I was on Saturday.
Running a 2M Black "light" does nothing for the sound quality.

Jimbo
19-10-2015, 17:48
I am now happier with the sound of my TT than I was on Saturday.
Running a 2M Black "light" does nothing for the sound quality.

Yep I found that Kevin. The 2M likes to be tracked at the top end of its weight 1.6 -1.7g. You will get even more out of it if you can alter the tonearm height and get the back end of the cartridge down a tad. Azimuth also critical. I have spent 2 years fiddling with mine and it now delivers superb sound.

Jimbo
19-10-2015, 17:50
See, that's the thing: do you want a record player that reveals how the music has *actually* been recorded, or one that romantically portrays its own version of that, under the guise of 'musicality'?

I know which one I'd choose! ;)

For me, it's about having a T/T that behaves both as an accurate transcription device, and something that you can relax and enjoy listening to music on. Achieving only one of those goals is simply not enough.

Marco.

Yep the Lenco is a nice romantic sound but does not by any means reveal all. My VPI/2M goes alot further in this respect.:)

You can tell me what you think when you hear it.:)

Gordon Steadman
19-10-2015, 17:59
See, that's the thing: do you want a record player that reveals how the music has *actually* been recorded, or one that romantically portrays its own version of that, under the guise of 'musicality'?

I know which one I'd choose! ;)

For me, it's about having a T/T that behaves both as an accurate transcription device, and something that you can relax and enjoy listening to music on. Achieving only one of those goals is simply not enough.

Marco.

Exactly and that is what the GL75 did. What can be more accurate than actually sounding like real music and real musical instruments? Nothing cuddly about the sound of violins, trumpets and saxophones.

You are in danger of perpetuating the myth about the GL75 and its brethren in the same way you complain about people labelling the Technics. Richard is wont to do the same thing but then his view is as biased as yours only towards pink side of life:rolleyes:. He keeps telling my Quad amps dim and murky and I say bollocks to him as well:lol:

My views on hi-fi and music are a direct result of being a stringed instrument instrument maker and repairer of strings, brass and woodwind. When you work with instruments on a daily basis you know what they sound like.

Arkless Electronics
19-10-2015, 18:07
They also give their best with non standard loading. 39K and very little capacitance IIRC. I've set a few of the phono stages I do to the requisite loading in the past (loading plugs). There's an article on the web about it somewhere with FR graphs for different loading options which shows the above to give the flattest response without the suck-out followed by peak so common in MM carts.

Firebottle
19-10-2015, 18:34
Much as people respect your accumulated experience Marco, not everyone has the funds to splash out on numerous 'upgrades' to a specific TT.

I for one, along with James, like to have a transparency to the reproduced audio. If you think that you are hearing all the detail that you can expect from combinations of instruments then that is what gives the enjoyment to reproduced music.
However when the overall impression verges on or becomes a soulless clinical sound I think the heart or passion of the performers/singer becomes diluted to the extent of becoming a 3 dimensional 'picture' without the various hues that create interest.

Having now experienced the reproduction from an idler drive TT I can feel the 'drive' behind the performance that is somehow missing from direct drive or belt drive TTs.

Each to his own and vive la difference to everybody's take on things (long live AoS) but please stop banging on about the Technics being best, I think we've all heard it before :)

Marco
19-10-2015, 18:43
Hi Gordon,


Exactly and that is what the GL75 did. What can be more accurate than actually sounding like real music and real musical instruments? Nothing cuddly about the sound of violins, trumpets and saxophones.


That's fine, it it's agreed by all who were present, that's what the GL75 *actually* did, otherwise it's just your word (and preferences) against theirs! :ner: ;)

I was only commenting on what Richard said about the GL75, based on his experience of it, which mirrors my own.

When I can hear the sonic signature of the T/T imbued over the music, that's what turns me off. The former should simply act, sonically, as near as possible, as an 'invisible carrier' for the latter. That's what the best T/Ts do. They get out of the equation and let the music speak for itself.


You are in danger of perpetuating the myth about the GL75 and its brethren in the same way you complain about people labelling the Technics. Richard is wont to do the same thing but then his view is as biased as yours only towards pink side of life:rolleyes:. He keeps telling my Quad amps dim and murky and I say bollocks to him as well:lol:


Lol.... Well, at the end of the day I guess all any of us can do is tell it how we hear it, based on our sonic preferences and benchmark of how real instruments and voices are supposed to sound.

I think we've gotten to the bottom of what was likely responsible for the 'clinical' nature of Kevin's Techy: the cartridge - or more specifically - the lack of synergy its sound had in the context with that of the partnering system.

Quite simply, as I can comment from considerable experience in this area, sterility (clinical sound) is NOT inherent in the DNA of the Technics; it's only something that occurs when the wrong ancillaries are employed, or the T/T is used in an unsympathetic system.

The reason I'm determined to get that message across, Gordon, is so that folk aren't put off going down the modded Technics route, as a result of a false accusation of sterility, when that needn't happen :)

Marco.

CageyH
19-10-2015, 19:13
Yep I found that Kevin. The 2M likes to be tracked at the top end of its weight 1.6 -1.7g. You will get even more out of it if you can alter the tonearm height and get the back end of the cartridge down a tad. Azimuth also critical. I have spent 2 years fiddling with mine and it now delivers superb sound.

Thanks for the tip. I have just nudged the arm down a tad (VTA on the fly makes it easy) and it seems to be responding well. I just need to check the VTF.
Wife is home, and daughter is asleep, so this is currently done on headphones - I'll check speaker output when I next get the chance.