View Full Version : Would you still buy a CD Player?
The Black Adder
14-10-2015, 16:29
Hi all.
Just a thought. In this world of streaming, who would still consider buying either a brand spanking new cdp or a vintage one?
If so, how much would you spend if you had the dosh?
With the decline of CD production and the idea of streaming, are cdp's a viable option? And, with some vintage ones still alive and kicking are they also an option or are they really a ticking time bomb before the laser or the mech fails/dies?
It maddens me to see some cd players exempt of warranty after 3 years whilst other kit (from the same manufacturer) such as amplifiers and streamers having an extended warranty.
I still like CD, but they seem to becoming one of those units that are being left out in the cold when it comes to repairs.
Jo
I feel hi end cd players are going to become thinner on the ground. There are ways to get a decent second hand one to sound good enough. The RPI and other high er end options are currently in the ascendency but with new cds being copy protected they may die a bit of death unless everyone starts buying download s..
It is a quandary that vinyl may just take advantage of.
Pieoftheday
14-10-2015, 17:18
Yes, in fact I recently did, not 'high end' mind,now used as transport with a Lite DAC AH,:) I paid less than £200 for a manufacturer refurb . if I had the coin I'd buy a novafidelity x40 and rip everything to that cos I'm lazy,think I'd keep a CD player though as I hear hard drives fail
Ali Tait
14-10-2015, 17:28
Bought this from here, and very good it is too-
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?39074-FS-Simaudio-Moon-Nova-CDP&highlight=Moon+nova
Spectral Morn
14-10-2015, 17:29
Yes I would and I would only cap the potential expenditure by what I could afford and what my needs were when looking.
My main CD player is a Moon Andromeda bought a fair few years ago and still going strong (Moon have a spare mech for each of the players they sold) so I should be ok. Of the other players I own I would be less sure re repair/spares but in saying that I hope they will continue to work for quiet awhile.
Classics I have are still serviceable, a Marantz CD94 mk2 needed a belt replacing last year, Marantz CD7 also had a transport issue that was easily repaired. I expect the 94 to continue for quiet awhile as the CDM1 mechs are pretty long lasting and I have a spare.
Re my Accuphase, while having a spare laser, the recent tail of woe on here re a members experiences with his 500 model does cause me a little concern but I have access to an excellent engineer over here who seems to be able to fix most stuff. I once bought a Micromega Data and Dialog transport and DAC pair, both faulty and needing fixed and he did both, including a surface mount repair to the DAC another local guy refused to do.
Why do I stick with these - why do I have a few - because I prefer physical media, have lots of CDs and hope to be able to play them well into my dotage - hence the CD players.
Personally I think its too easy or soon to write CD off on the basis of Linn and the like creating propaganda news announcements - one true wayism, do it our way - re streaming and Linn choosing to stop making CD players.... so what. I think there is the beginnings of a backlash against virtual downloads, music and books, but only time will tell.
I have played with PC audio, and a server/player solution and this is not the way I want to play music, its a pain in the ass and requires way too much hassle.
Regards Neil
Yes I got another recently. Not high end. My prediction is maybe there are fifty or so high end players that will keep some value - say a few hundred - and the budget stuff will become worthless like budget tuners and tape decks already are.
Incidentally a lot of cd player failiures are not down to the mech or laser going bad but some minor component or connector failing.
Two weeks ago I bought a Yamaha dvd s-2700...plays CDs, but DVD-As and SACDs too.
I wouldn't buy a bit of kit that ONLY plays CDs now...but then I have got several nice CDPs. Probably wouldn't spend more than the couple of hundred the Yam cost either but then I am a tight bugger...
Haselsh1
14-10-2015, 18:52
About a year ago I bought a Marantz 6005 CD player that cost me around three hundred quid. I am very happy with it especially the imaging which I find very superior to my vinyl setup.
Damn straight I'd buy another cdp. This whole thing about the"death" of CD is as much bollocks as the "death" of vinyl records.
orbscure
14-10-2015, 19:08
I'm always on the look out for CD players and it'd have to be vintage for me too... some of the high end 1990's CDP's I've owned were not only built like the proverbial brick sh*t house, they sounded fab too. My biggest regret is selling an original John Farlowe designed Exposure CDP which sounded superb with the kit I had at that time (a Quad 306/Croft Micro 25 Basic combination). Having said that, since purchasing my Oto integrated and connecting my current Primare CD31 directly with Brian's cables (rather than through the Young DAC) its given my current Primare CD31 a new lease of life... Also, despite its sick display, I still have a soft spot for my Meridian 206, the first vintage CDP I ever bought and when it gets a spin, it too still sounds great..
I used a Naim CD5/Hicap for a few years,then i got a squeezebox touch and couldn't tell the difference, so i sold the Naim kit.I didn't loose any money on the deal,so that was a result.But,as i have nearly a thousand cd's it seemed a shame to not have a player so i pressed the buy it now button on a Teac 500C.It was ok,but only just.last night i put it into a BM MKII with one of Stan's optical leads.
So now cd's are sounding a lot better than spotify and vinyl.I bought a spare laser just in case,so it will now last forever.:rolleyes::D
My reply to your question is YES.
walpurgis
14-10-2015, 20:07
Damn straight I'd buy another cdp. This whole thing about the"death" of CD is as much bollocks as the "death" of vinyl records.
I agree. I'm not throwing out my CDs, so what wrong with having a new player?
(not that I need one. My Meridian 507 bought new 12 years ago is still serving fine as a transport)
I usually rip my CDs to a music server, so I don't really need a CDP. However, sometimes I just want to pop a new CD in the player and listen to it. So when my CDP fails, yes, I will definitely buy a new CDP. And who knows? I might end up retiring the music server just to save space if I can find some way to have all of my CDs easily accessible.
Nope, I'll never buy another Audio CD play again. I effectively stopped using CD players back in 2005 when I discovered a slightly tweaked Series One SB was virtually indistinguishable from my CD5/FlatcapII. I've not looked back. Further tweaking and using an external DAC took the SB performance way beyond the CD5 could have ever hoped to achieve and all at a much lower cost....then the SBMKII and 3 came along, heaven! I have an old and heavily modded Arcam player with the TDA1541 chip set if I wish to ever spin the silver stuff again...
The Black Adder
15-10-2015, 12:21
NO!
LOL.... :lol:
Audio Al
15-10-2015, 12:56
CD players take a back seat in my system , IF I needed another I would buy one but only a cheap one used and in working order ;)
If you've ripped the CD's to a drive somewhere, you still need to keep the discs don't you?
Alex_UK here had a great way of dealing with it. He ripped the discs, ditched all the jewel cases but kept the artwork and booklets, saving loads of space. The discs were neatly stored in boxes in alphabetical order and stored in a cupboard, so he still has them in case of disaster.
I have enough CD players to tide me over :)
awkwardbydesign
15-10-2015, 15:53
Yes. And I'd spend as much as I could afford. But my current Consonance Orfeo sounds good enough at the moment.
I was waiting until the technology settled down and matured - I think I've missed that boat now....
Audio Advent
15-10-2015, 22:03
Cd players can be beautiful machines to own and enjoy using in their own right. Life's too short to just buy something cheap and plasticy because it "does the job", in my view.
I'd like a Luxman 500, a Kyocera DA710, Marantz CD-95 ... for example if they came my way for a good price. But I'd use them as transports. Why would you want one? CDs are fun to use, cassettes are fun to use. I think people lose a lot for the sake of convenience, namely variety of life experience which then impacts on your thoughts and ideas abstractly related to those experiences.
awkwardbydesign
15-10-2015, 22:08
Cd players can be beautiful machines to own and enjoy using in their own right. Life's too short to just buy something cheap and plasticy because it "does the job", in my view.
I'd like a Luxman 500, a Kyocera DA710, Marantz CD-95 ... for example if they came my way for a good price. But I'd use them as transports. Why would you want one? CDs are fun to use, cassettes are fun to use. I think people lose a lot for the sake of convenience, namely variety of life experience which then impacts on your thoughts and ideas abstractly related to those experiences.
I'll go with that.
Audio Advent
15-10-2015, 22:08
I was waiting until the technology settled down and matured - I think I've missed that boat now....
It is probably in its prime maturity now with all the upsampling or dithering techniques or DAC advances, multiple-pass CD reading, memory buffers etc etc ... it's not too late.
I like my dvd player that I use as a cd player/ transport; in fact I have 2. Sound pretty good even without an external dac imo, and in second hand form are very good value. Yhey were expensive new but as dvd players have moved on folk dont want them, and that is a good example of value for money buys. I even have a spare full mech system I took out of a faulty one.
walpurgis
15-10-2015, 22:22
Possibly the best bargain out there is the Pioneer PD-S 505 Precision. It may not be particularly hefty, but sure as hell sounds good, even as a stand alone player and works wonders as a transport. Reliable too. I actually like the Legato Link Conversion circuitry. It definitely has a sound verging on the 'analogue'.
I have a Trichord Research Digital Turntable transport and a Meridian 507, both of which are excellent, but the PD-S505 Precision gives nothing away to them and you can pick one up for less than £100!
I was impressed enough to buy two. One as 'back up'. :)
Anybody who thinks that a CD player is redundant needs to hear the latest generation of Accuphase players like the DP720.
Not that their older ones were too shabby.
No computer/server based system I have heard [and their have been many] comes close.
The Black Adder
16-10-2015, 06:24
Anybody who thinks that a CD player is redundant needs to hear the latest generation of Accuphase players like the DP720.
Not that their older ones were too shabby.
No computer/server based system I have heard [and their have been many] comes close.
I have no doubt that Accuphase are splendid players.. I've heard some of the olde generation ones and are amazing. But are the new ones under a good lengthy warranty/repair for faults such as lasers, for example? IMO CDP's of that caliber should be covered for at least 10 years seeing as the price of them are very expensive.
jandl100
16-10-2015, 06:44
I'm mainly streaming these days, but CDs still get a spin if they aren't on Tidal. I certainly wouldn't be without a CDP.
But I don't have expensive tastes in CD replay anyway - give me a decent Pioneer DV model (£100 or less used) outputting into my DAC de jour and I'm happy.
I was waiting until the technology settled down and matured - I think I've missed that boat now....
What did you do between '95 and 2005 when vinyl had dissapeared from the shops? Or did you just not buy any music for a decade? That was what forced my hand - new releases that I wanted but were only on cd.
Anybody who thinks that a CD player is redundant needs to hear the latest generation of Accuphase players like the DP720.
Not that their older ones were too shabby.
No computer/server based system I have heard [and their have been many] comes close.
Maybe or maybe not but at $27k I would hope it sounded rather decent! :stalks:
Vinyl (at least second-hand) has always been available, daftee, if you know where to look! I bought plenty of vinyl during that period, but not necessarily from big high-street stores... ;)
One such place you could always generally find some new vinyl in, though, was FOPP. Otherwise I got mine from specialist second-hand shops in Glasgow, and latterly when I moved down to Wrexham in 2000, from local shops here and in Chester.
Anyway, would I still buy a CD player? Yes, most definitely (and that's precisely what I will do, if or when my Sony goes tits up), but definitely NOT a new one because most of them made now (unless spending really big money) are crap! Therefore, it'll be another top-notch 'battleship build' vintage one, from the golden era of CDPs (1987-98), if my current one reaches a point where it can't be repaired.
Marco.
Vinyl (at least second-hand) has always been available, daftee, if you know where to look! I bought plenty of vinyl during that period, but not necessarily from big high-street stores... ;)
.
Second hand was not much use if you wanted an album that had just been released and there was no vinyl release at all. That was commonplace in the late 'Nineties.
Indeed, which is when you bought the CD instead, and hence why having access to more than one quality music source is essential. Why sell your turntable, simply because some new music releases were unavailable on vinyl?
You don't just have to just listen to new music.... Why not widen your horizons and discover some (new to you) old stuff instead, available second-hand?
However, my point was, where I lived during the period you're referring to (1995-2005), which could've been different from where you lived at that time, vinyl hadn't completely "disappeared from the shops".
There was still plenty of it around, albeit not always the latest releases, although if you asked the shop staff, quite often things could be ordered in for you, if they didn't have it in stock :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
16-10-2015, 08:24
quite a few releases were issued on vinyl as limited editions too which unfortunately fell way below on the average consumer radar due to CD taking the spot light. Hardly anyone stocked it so nobody actually knew it was released on that format.
I remember my local shop having loads of vinyl, mostly limited editions and all going for a song... now the lot I remember is worth bonkers money. Has anyone got a time machine I could borrow?
The Black Adder
16-10-2015, 08:27
I must say, I'm thinking of upgrading from my little Trio CD player (1984) that I've had for donkeys. I agree with Marco, though in that I'd rather buy something vintage rather than something made in recent years. But, who knows... :)
Spectral Morn
16-10-2015, 08:46
Sadly high end CD players usually have no more than one year warranty, with a few exceptions that have two or three.
Regards Neil
quite a few releases were issued on vinyl as limited editions too which unfortunately fell way below on the average consumer radar due to CD taking the spot light.
Good point, which is why you had to get away from 'mainstream thinking', and automatically expecting your local Woolies or HMV (back then) to stock all the new vinyl releases, which admittedly were somewhat thin on the ground. You had to dig a little deeper, and one such place which stocked what you're referring to, was FOPP: http://www.fopp.com/stores/glasgow-union-st/
The one in Glasgow (shown above) has been there for years, however, they were dotted all over the UK.
Marco.
I agree with Marco, though in that I'd rather buy something vintage rather than something made in recent years.
Quite simply, to hear CD properly, as it was meant to be heard when it was first invented, you need a CD player with a properly built CD-only transport mechanism, rather than the plastic DVD-ROM drives which the vast majority use now, and also a player that has a proper solid chassis and a large (over-specced) linear PSU.
The flimsy, lightweight plastic monstrosities, powered by noisy, cheap SMPS units, produced today, outside of the real high-end, simply don't cut it. Therefore, in many ways, you can judge how good a CDP is likely to be by how much it weighs! If you go 'oof!' when lifting it up (provided that the manufacturer hasn't simply put a brick inside to give a false impression of impressive build quality), chances are it's a goodie :)
You need all of that 'sturdiness' simply because accurate CD replay is extremely susceptible to the effects of vibration. Therefore, the best CD players provide effective isolation against its harmful effects, thus allowing the musical information, embedded in the discs themselves, to be accurately read and thus reproduced.
DACs are slightly different, and some of the latest ones produced today, enabling one, for example, to play high-res files when streaming, are extremely good, but even those still benefit from the use of top-notch linear PSUs, as evidenced with the RPi.
The fact is, one of the biggest enemies preventing digital audio from producing genuinely musical sounding results, is noise [mainly from SMPS units and switching noise from DACs], the type of which doesn't happen in the analogue domain - and I believe that noise is a major factor for why many people prefer the sound of vinyl or tape (reel to reel).
For me, it's what causes the often offending 'digital glare': that 'glassy', 'hard' sound digital often has, when done badly. Remove, or vastly reduce said noise to insignificant enough levels, however, and digital music replay can sound stunning!
Marco.
walpurgis
16-10-2015, 09:20
Quite simply, to hear CD properly, as it was meant to be heard when it was first invented, you need a CD player with a properly built CD-only transport mechanism in it, rather than the plastic DVD-ROM drives which the vast majority of them use now, and also a player that has a proper solid chassis and a large (over-specced) linear PSU.
Marco.
Glad somebody said that.
It's glaringly obvious really. If you want to do a job (playing CDs), you need the right tool and a good quality one!
The Black Adder
16-10-2015, 09:21
Yup, Fopp, Warp and Sister Ray to name a couple more.
It was in the mid 90's when I started to hate HMV. Simply stocked the commercial and hum-drum cack.
Glad somebody said that.
It glaringly obvious really. If you want to do a job (playing CDs), you need the right tool and a good quality one!
Precisely, Geoff. You have to ameliorate the effect of CD/digital replay's two main enemies: noise and vibration!
The problem is, to achieve that nowadays takes mucho denaro, specifically because CDPs are a dying entity, and thus the parts needed to make really good ones are either no longer produced, or if not, very expensive to buy because they're being made in tiny quantities.
Also, solidly built (copper-clad) casings and big linear PSUs aren't cheap to make or buy.
Marco.
walpurgis
16-10-2015, 09:41
I don't know if it's my imagination, but there seem to be an increasing interest in CD players again. There seems to be more discussion about them and I've noticed second hand prices for decent examples are definitely higher lately.
Perhaps I should look around for a (another?) good transport while the going's good. :)
Won't do any harm :)
I think folk are probably realising that the day is fast approaching when CD-only mechanisms will no longer be produced... And if you have a vintage CDP, then it makes sense to keep a spare transport mech for it.
Quite often it's just a case of buying an old player from ebay, fitted with the required transport mech, and then butchering it when necessary.
Marco.
walpurgis
16-10-2015, 09:55
Yes. I've also adopted the same philosophy with my turntables. I have spares of just about everything. Just heading down the Lenco idler route once again and seem to have rather quickly accumulated enough parts to build 2.5 turntables so far (more to come :rolleyes:). Prices are zooming!
(yes. it will be a (long overdue) project featured here)
Yes. I've also adopted the same philosophy with my turntables. I have spares of just about everything. Just heading down the Lenco idler route once again and seem to have rather quickly accumulated enough parts to build 2.5 turntables so far (more to come :rolleyes:). Prices are zooming!
(yes. it will be a (long overdue) project featured here)
Been looking for reasonable priced motor for the thorens as a back up myself but they are always silly priced. Might pick up a whole deck for parts one day
As usual very late to this thread..sorreee!:doh:
I faced this decision earlier this year. I am really unconvinced by so called high end CDPs and couldn't justify a large investment in a soon to be old technology format and worried by lifetime/obsolescence issues of replacing transports and laser assemblies etc on older machines so I decided to investigate cheap CDPs on the grounds that although signal processing technology has matured it has nonetheless moved on somewhat and mass production should bring costs down. To cut a long story short and after listening to a few I decided to get a simple Denon DCD520AE. To my surprise IMHO it outperforms my previous Apollo R... I kid thee not! :) More detail and resolution in a larger and better ordered and more focussed soundstage and with all the PRAT I want ....wot? oh just the missus saying I have got that last bit already!
There is good value new kit out there if you research it thoroughly and look hard for it but I can't help thinking that this hifi game is a bit akin to straining to hear gnats on the horizon with differences sold and reviewed as improvements and increasingly small diminishing returns. Bit sad really..:(
Yes. I've also adopted the same philosophy with my turntables. I have spares of just about everything. Just heading down the Lenco idler route once again and seem to have rather quickly accumulated enough parts to build 2.5 turntables so far (more to come :rolleyes:). Prices are zooming!
(yes. it will be a (long overdue) project featured here)
What are you building Geoff or is it a Lenco special project?:eyebrows:
jandl100
17-10-2015, 08:01
As usual very late to this thread..sorreee!:doh:
I faced this decision earlier this year. I am really unconvinced by so called high end CDPs and couldn't justify a large investment in a soon to be old technology format and worried by lifetime/obsolescence issues of replacing transports and laser assemblies etc on older machines so I decided to investigate cheap CDPs on the grounds that although signal processing technology has matured it has nonetheless moved on somewhat and mass production should bring costs down. To cut a long story short and after listening to a few I decided to get a simple Denon DCD520AE. To my surprise IMHO it outperforms my previous Apollo R... I kid thee not! :) More detail and resolution in a larger and better ordered and more focussed soundstage and with all the PRAT I want ....wot? oh just the missus saying I have got that last bit already!
There is good value new kit out there if you research it thoroughly and look hard for it but I can't help thinking that this hifi game is a bit akin to straining to hear gnats on the horizon with differences sold and reviewed as improvements and increasingly small diminishing returns. Bit sad really..:(
I must confess that I tend to agree with that .... it's been my experience the last few years that a decent, simple design in audio is often more honest to the music than the over-engineered audiophile approach. Especially noticeable with amps, where I have come across bargain examples which put many a high ticket audiophile amp to shame, imo.
Of course, cheap crap abounds as well! Buying low cost items at random is not likely to have a successful result.
Same with CD transports - the Pioneer DVD players I use seem to push out far more realistic digits than most fancy high fallutin' audiophile kit that I have come across does.
Hi Jerry,
Same with CD transports - the Pioneer DVD players I use seem to push out far more realistic digits than most fancy high fallutin' audiophile kit that I have come across does.
I guess that everything is relative, so it depends on so many factors as to whether one perceives something as better or not, and of course the actual kit one has used for such comparisons.
Remember that with a CDP or DVD player, you're not just listening to the transport mechanism, but the DAC, PSU and whole kit and caboodle, so it's very difficult to pinpoint what's responsible for the sound you either like or dislike...
I would contend that, all else being equal, if you compared one of the best designed CD-only transports, with a DVD-ROM one, the sonic difference would be obvious, and it wouldn't be the latter that wins! ;)
Marco.
Hi Chris,
There is good value new kit out there if you research it thoroughly and look hard for it...
I agree, but like you say, you need to know what you're buying. It's simply not the case that just because something is new, it's likely to be better than something that's old. In the case of CDPs made today, more often than not, it's the other way round.
A lot of the 'hi-fi game' too is about what you're used to, i.e. your available benchmark, in terms of your idea of what is good or bad.
In that respect, it's rather like food. If you're used to eating fresh, home-made pasta, you'll be more able to appreciate and identify the inferiority of tinned spaghetti hoops, than someone who's never eaten fresh pasta, and thinks that the tinned variety is perfectly adequate! ;)
And so it is when making hi-fi comparisons....
Marco.
Clive197
17-10-2015, 09:01
...............the inferiority of tinned spaghetti hoops! ;)
Marco.
Marco, why are you knocking spaghetti hoops, I find they run rings round other type of tinned spaghetti. He-He :D
walpurgis
17-10-2015, 09:03
What are you building Geoff or is it a Lenco special project?:eyebrows:
Looks like I may end up with two Lenco specials. I'll be sticking with standard main bearings, they've worked just fine for fifty years. I'm going to make brass thrust pads for them though, retaining the standard steel ball below the main shaft. No fancy ceramics or rubies. Got spare motors, main bearings, top plates, idler wheels and platters handy. I'll be making solid plinths, but not the overkill nine inch thick type some seem to like. One is likely to feature a Decca FFSS arm and Mk.III cartridge. The other maybe a 774 arm or LV-V for my MCs, and it'll use stacked platters, but it'll be a Rega glass one on top with adaptor not a second GL75 job. Watch my blog in The Gallery.
Marco, why are you knocking spaghetti hoops, I find they run rings round other type of tinned spaghetti. He-He :D
:lolsign:
Marco.
walpurgis
17-10-2015, 09:06
Marco, why are you knocking spaghetti hoops, I find they run rings round other type of tinned spaghetti. He-He :D
Is this turning into a circular debate? :D
They found an unexploded bomb in a tin of alphabet spaghetti at a supermarket the other day. The police said if it had gone off it could have spelt disaster.
I ripped all my CDs in lossless format to a Mac Mini a few years ago - new digital music usually comes in as CD (or SACD/blu-ray preferably) and gets ripped to the drive. The Mac Mini for me is the perfect digital source (or it would be, except that the external HDD is not silent - so I stream into an Airport Express and keep the Mac in another room).
When I want to spin a disc for speed, before I've ripped it, I just drop it in one of the blu-ray players and job's a good 'un. The only irksome bit is the slow load times of a blu-ray player, whereas a dedicated CD-player is usually much more responsive. I do find myself, occasionally trawling through eBay looking for a Philips CD850 - the machine I had years ago. They are now so old, though, that I wouldn't really risk spending a significant amount of money on one.
Hi Malcolm,
The only irksome bit is the slow load times of a blu-ray player, whereas a dedicated CD-player is usually much more responsive.
That alone should tell you something important about the inherent quality (or otherwise) of your Blu-Ray's disc mechanism... ;)
My 28-year old Sony CD player reads a CD's table of contents in about one second!
Marco.
Hi Malcolm,
That alone should tell you something important about the inherent quality (or otherwise) of your Blu-Ray's disc mechanism... ;)
My 28-year old Sony CD player reads a CD's table of contents in about one second!
Marco.
I think it's as much about the fact that a blu-ray player has to make a decision about which type of disc it has to deal with. Although they're not built in the same tank-like nature as a vintage high-end CD player, I have no qualms about the performance or quality of my Pioneer or Toshiba players. If you want that big high-end experience from a blu-ray player then your Oppos, Denons and the like can give something of that - although nothing like the loveliness of loading a disc in my old Sony XA20ES or Meridian 506 of course.
For myself, much as I'd like to, I just can't justify the expense or the shelf-space for a CD player or transport that would be used only (very) occasionally. Universal players all the way. :)
Stratmangler
17-10-2015, 11:06
Hi Malcolm,
That alone should tell you something important about the inherent quality (or otherwise) of your Blu-Ray's disc mechanism... ;)
My 28-year old Sony CD player reads a CD's table of contents in about one second!
Marco.
It tells you sod all about quality.
Your Sony CD player doesn't play Bluray discs, or DVDs, or Photo CDs or ......
The mech on your Sony only reads CDs because that's the only optical disc that was available 28 years ago.
Although they're not built in the same tank-like nature as a vintage high-end CD player, I have no qualms about the performance or quality of my Pioneer or Toshiba players.
+1 on that score
I have a Toshiba BR player that is small, compact and plays audio discs perfectly, I have no intention (or wish) to go back to a 'vintage' single purpose monster like the Marantz CDP I owned a few years back, particularly as it was certainly not significantly better in terms of audio quality (if at all....)
It tells you sod all about quality.
Your Sony CD player doesn't play Bluray discs, or DVDs, or Photo CDs or ......
The mech on your Sony only reads CDs because that's the only optical disc that was available 28 years ago.
Yes, that and the fact that better engineered mechs *are* faster in (all forms) of operation, usually smoother, slicker and quieter, too. I've done the comparison with quite a few other CD-only players, new and old, so it's not just about what formats various disc mechanisms have to read, or the age of the players themselves.
Also, the fact that the mechs used on Blu-Ray players have to deal with reproducing Blu-Ray discs, DVDs, etc, shows that they're not optimised (the key word here) for CD replay. All the extra 'gubbins' required to process information for movies, etc, ultimately affects the quality of audio replay. I'm afraid that's just how it is.
It doesn't mean, however, that DVD and Blu-Ray players aren't still capable of good sounding results :)
Marco.
I have found a ripped CD always sounds better than a CD played via CDP so not sure if CD player would be worth buying. Too much noise and rubbish generated in reading the disc and then processing it through its internal gubbins only to be wrecked by an inferior internal DAC.
With DAC,s improving all the time there may be a case of using a CDP as a transport but why bother when the ripped version sounds better especially when using good ripping software?
I really think the future of Digital Audio is not via a CDP.
Looks like I may end up with two Lenco specials. I'll be sticking with standard main bearings, they've worked just fine for fifty years. I'm going to make brass thrust pads for them though, retaining the standard steel ball below the main shaft. No fancy ceramics or rubies. Got spare motors, main bearings, top plates, idler wheels and platters handy. I'll be making solid plinths, but not the overkill nine inch thick type some seem to like. One is likely to feature a Decca FFSS arm and Mk.III cartridge. The other maybe a 774 arm or LV-V for my MCs, and it'll use stacked platters, but it'll be a Rega glass one on top with adaptor not a second GL75 job. Watch my blog in The Gallery.
Great stuff Geoff, look forward to your Lenco project.
I have found a ripped CD always sounds better than a CD played via CDP so not sure if CD player would be worth buying. Too much noise and rubbish generated in reading the disc and then processing it through its internal gubbins only to be wrecked by an inferior internal DAC.
With DAC,s improving all the time there may be a case of using a CDP as a transport but why bother when the ripped version sounds better especially when using good ripping software?
I really think the future of Digital Audio is not via a CDP.
That is the opposite of what I have found.
I burn my computer files to CD because they sound much better that way.
to quote John Darko who has reviewed a great many digital sources-a CD drive will most always sound better than a computer because it generates less digital noise.
awkwardbydesign
17-10-2015, 13:29
I have found a ripped CD always sounds better than a CD played via CDP so not sure if CD player would be worth buying. Too much noise and rubbish generated in reading the disc and then processing it through its internal gubbins only to be wrecked by an inferior internal DAC.
The DAC in my CDP sounds better than my stand alone DAC. It all depends on their relative quality, doesn't it?
The DAC in my CDP sounds better than my stand alone DAC. It all depends on their relative quality, doesn't it?
Yep your right Richard it does depend on the quality of the DAC but I think many CDP,s had poor DAC,s compared to some of the better stand alone DACs.
That is the opposite of what I have found.
I burn my computer files to CD because they sound much better that way.
to quote John Darko who has reviewed a great many digital sources-a CD drive will most always sound better than a computer because it generates less digital noise.
Not sure if a CD drive will sound as good as a NAS and top quality DAC/media player. Certainly playing digital stuff directly from a computer is an inferior way to go, as you are correct in that a computer gubbins does al sorts of nasty stuff.
awkwardbydesign
17-10-2015, 15:38
Yep your right Richard it does depend on the quality of the DAC but I think many CDP,s had poor DAC,s compared to some of the better stand alone DACs.
I was responding to your experience of a ripped CD always sounding better.
Not sure if a CD drive will sound as good as a NAS and top quality DAC/media player. Certainly playing digital stuff directly from a computer is an inferior way to go, as you are correct in that a computer gubbins does al sorts of nasty stuff.
Yes a dedicated music server like the Antipodes does sound much better than a computer but in my experience a good disc transport or one box CD player will sound best.
Friends and I have compared all this numerous times and the really good CD/SACD players like those from Accuphase and Vitus sound best.These players can also be used as DACs so a comparison between the transport and the music server and the computer is very easy to make.
The Black Adder
18-10-2015, 07:20
Yes a dedicated music server like the Antipodes does sound much better than a computer but in my experience a good disc transport or one box CD player will sound best.
Friends and I have compared all this numerous times and the really good CD/SACD players like those from Accuphase and Vitus sound best.These players can also be used as DACs so a comparison between the transport and the music server and the computer is very easy to make.
It's interesting to know how and why a transport sounds better than a digital transport isn't it? Or is this the geek in me? lol - Can anyone give it a shot on how and why this is? Personally I think it's witchcraft and I've never heard a full conclusive reason to why streamed data shouldn't sound as good or better than a traditional mechanical transport doing the same job.
Stratmangler
18-10-2015, 08:13
Yes a dedicated music server like the Antipodes does sound much better than a computer but in my experience a good disc transport or one box CD player will sound best.
Friends and I have compared all this numerous times and the really good CD/SACD players like those from Accuphase and Vitus sound best.These players can also be used as DACs so a comparison between the transport and the music server and the computer is very easy to make.
Except that the internal data connection between the mech and DAC will be over I2S, and the external inputs will be over SPDIF, so a fair comparison is not possible.
Except that the internal data connection between the mech and DAC will be over I2S, and the external inputs will be over SPDIF, so a fair comparison is not possible.
Yes that is right.Also why many people suspect that i2s is superior.
Accuphase DACs come with i2s type connectivity.Those guys know how to get the best out of digital.
VesaLato
18-10-2015, 10:37
Yes, I would. As long as I can I will buy cd's and will also have a cd player for them. Not a fan for file based audio at all.
Absolutely not, because I don't like the idea of a 'consumable' component like a transport mech being inside. I'd rather have a DAC & transport combination. CD mechs aren't built like they used to be & the solid ones like Philips CDM 1 / 4 / 9 are aging fast.
CD mechs aren't built like they used to be & the solid ones like Philips CDM 1 / 4 / 9 are aging fast.
Ain't that the truth!
Marco.
Balle Clorin
24-10-2015, 18:09
I just bought a Cambridge 851C CDplayer-DAC-digital Preamp. CD just sounds better than any streaming from Tidal or from PC. I buy alll the CD's I like, long as I can get them. Streaming give a flatter sound, not only with this DAC but also other I think.
Best regards
Balle
Anthony K
24-10-2015, 18:23
Agk said it perfectly ...Likewise even though my bryston recently went Arse over tit
Audio Advent
28-10-2015, 18:04
CD mechs aren't built like they used to be & the solid ones like Philips CDM 1 / 4 / 9 are aging fast.
They're travelling at near light-speed (or would it be that were are and we're not?)? Seems a daft assertion - any mechanism wears with use, not time. What you probably mean is that as the years pass, the more people panic that they're about to fail any time soon - it's a matter of anxiety, rather than reality. Its a feeling in those that way enclined.
I think there are so many spares out there, it's just a matter of seeing that whole mechs aren't destroyed for the sake of a repariable failed transistor or capacitor on the control circuitry because of the false notion that the "laser has failed, it's toast", the sort of ignorant advice given by most engineers and internet folks (who don't have the experience).
Audio Advent
28-10-2015, 18:04
Double post by the forum.
Hi all.
Just a thought. In this world of streaming, who would still consider buying either a brand spanking new cdp or a vintage one?
If so, how much would you spend if you had the dosh?
With the decline of CD production and the idea of streaming, are cdp's a viable option? And, with some vintage ones still alive and kicking are they also an option or are they really a ticking time bomb before the laser or the mech fails/dies?
It maddens me to see some cd players exempt of warranty after 3 years whilst other kit (from the same manufacturer) such as amplifiers and streamers having an extended warranty.
I still like CD, but they seem to becoming one of those units that are being left out in the cold when it comes to repairs.
Jo
Yes l would/ will have to as my vinyl front end makes my CD player sound er- boring. ( but at about 7x the cost it should do.):lol:
tizer2000uk
29-10-2015, 23:25
I just bought a Cambridge 851C CDplayer-DAC-digital Preamp. CD just sounds better than any streaming from Tidal or from PC. I buy alll the CD's I like, long as I can get them. Streaming give a flatter sound, not only with this DAC but also other I think.
Best regards
Balle
Having heard Tidal and ripped music streamed from a Sooloos setup I can never go back to CD again!
This is likely to ruffle a few feathers but CD is now a very old technology and the method of extracting the data from the disc hasn't changed, only the delivery from the pickup to the outputs has. With that in mind, storing the data on a more reliable medium and then outputting that with significantly less jitter is technically speaking the best method.
Hearing the fruits of Meridians work on their latest series of loudspeakers with MQA is a game changer as far as the technical accuracy of delivery is concerned.
Note I said technical accuracy rather than 'better' as this is somewhat subjective as far as enjoyment of music is concerned although my personal enjoyment comes from getting as close to the original recording venue as possible.
Having heard Tidal and ripped music streamed from a Sooloos setup I can never go back to CD again!
This is likely to ruffle a few feathers but CD is now a very old technology and the method of extracting the data from the disc hasn't changed, only the delivery from the pickup to the outputs has. With that in mind, storing the data on a more reliable medium and then outputting that with significantly less jitter is technically speaking the best method.
Hearing the fruits of Meridians work on their latest series of loudspeakers with MQA is a game changer as far as the technical accuracy of delivery is concerned.
Note I said technical accuracy rather than 'better' as this is somewhat subjective as far as enjoyment of music is concerned although my personal enjoyment comes from getting as close to the original recording venue as possible.
Ive seen them. they look awsome, but at the price they should be too lol. Yes I think digital has moved on a bit from cd, although done well cd can and is still as good as anything imo
Audio Advent
30-10-2015, 01:06
Note I said technical accuracy rather than 'better' as this is somewhat subjective as far as enjoyment of music is concerned although my personal enjoyment comes from getting as close to the original recording venue as possible.
Sssshhh ssshhhh SSSSHHHH !! Keep a lid on it mate.... you can't go on about "realism" around here without setting off a circular argument. You're digging a hole, stop. :lol:
Audio Advent
30-10-2015, 01:35
Having heard Tidal and ripped music streamed from a Sooloos setup I can never go back to CD again!
This is likely to ruffle a few feathers but CD is now a very old technology and the method of extracting the data from the disc hasn't changed, only the delivery from the pickup to the outputs has. With that in mind, storing the data on a more reliable medium and then outputting that with significantly less jitter is technically speaking the best method.
Hearing the fruits of Meridians work on their latest series of loudspeakers with MQA is a game changer as far as the technical accuracy of delivery is concerned.
Note I said technical accuracy rather than 'better' as this is somewhat subjective as far as enjoyment of music is concerned although my personal enjoyment comes from getting as close to the original recording venue as possible.
The problem with this outlook is one of short-termism. It is great today! But Tidal is both a business and a technical innovation.. both move on pretty rapidly and can quickly disappear or be bought out and destroyed. Competition also creates an environment where labels and musicians are exclusive on one service and so absent on others etc etc. It relies on internet connections, the service's terms of use and privacy will change creating dilemmas (if you don't agree with those new terms), they rely on certain popular standards of the day in the short-term which then causes you to have to constantly change your hardware over the years etc etc Licencing is problematic too and open to change at no notice.
In other words, you hand all control of your own music enjoyment over to several parties who have their profit making interests in higher regard than your musical pleasure. Personally I see trouble ahead for people who do that.
Great thing about a physical format standard like CD is that it remains constant no matter how long into the future you look - only thing is if that physical format takes off or not, which CD did. A CD bought in 1983 will play on the gear to play CDs today. Can't say that about streaming in any way.
Downloads are much better because at least you have the file to keep using as you see fit.
Light Dependant Resistor
30-10-2015, 02:13
The output of a DAC ( Digital to Analog Converter ) is a current
for each channel with often differences in current that is not addressed
( TDA 1541 has one channel different in level to the other )
The typical device used is a operational amplifier arranged to convert
current to voltage - hence you may see the term I/V stage.
The majority of CD players will have standard op amps such as JRC 4558
arguably one of the worst sounding op amps available ever !
The LM4562 and LME49710 are approaching theoretical perfection
and there are other op amps that are close like opa627.
When one of these is installed even in a humble CD plaIyer
you will straight away get a nice sound improvement.
So learning how to desolder and solder in replacement op amps
is well worthwhile doing. i can provide some instruction in
the DIY section if there is any interest.
Yes Marco's comments about mechanisms are important too, and
I think Pioneer stable platter players remain one of the better choices,
there is then less vibration and error correction needed.
The way manufacturers like Philips addressed CD imperfection and
imperfect mechanisms was to provide wobble generator IC's these
introduce a known vibration of sorts in the data stream so that vibration from the
CD itself can be forward anticipated- and you are right a band aid solution
to not getting CD mechanisms right in the first place.
CD players provide better dynamic range than LP but often do not sound better
for the aforementioned reasons.
The recipe for good CD replay is to
1. Install best op amps either LM4562 duals or LME49710 singles
2. use a good mechanism like stable platter types
3. Use type 1 DBX companders to dither and improve CD dynamic range further
4. Use Type 1 in tandem with Type 4 DBX to have Dither type SNR2
ftp://ftp.dbxpro.com/pub/pdfs/WhitePapers/Type%20IV.pdf
5 Use hard disk recorders to accept compressed data storage, and then expand
this maximises the recording device to accept dynamic range and playback.
Cheers / Chris
Cheers / Chris
Lee Henley
30-10-2015, 18:38
For me Jo I wouldn't buy one, I've been running a Mac and Dac with Audirvana for a few years and really couldn't go back to loading CDs into a machine
Hi all.
Just a thought. In this world of streaming, who would still consider buying either a brand spanking new cdp or a vintage one?
If so, how much would you spend if you had the dosh?
With the decline of CD production and the idea of streaming, are cdp's a viable option? And, with some vintage ones still alive and kicking are they also an option or are they really a ticking time bomb before the laser or the mech fails/dies?
It maddens me to see some cd players exempt of warranty after 3 years whilst other kit (from the same manufacturer) such as amplifiers and streamers having an extended warranty.
I still like CD, but they seem to becoming one of those units that are being left out in the cold when it comes to repairs.
Jo
tizer2000uk
01-11-2015, 20:54
Sssshhh ssshhhh SSSSHHHH !! Keep a lid on it mate.... you can't go on about "realism" around here without setting off a circular argument. You're digging a hole, stop. :lol:
I did have to think carefully about that before typing! Always feels like im lighting the blue touchpaper and then retreating to a safe distance....like Australia ;)
I should however have stressed that I have no qualms about CD as a medium given that I still buy them, its just that I won't use them to play music from. I now just pop the cd in the drive, confirm it's details and then play it from Sooloos.
Meridian will shortly be releasing a plugin for Intel based QNAP NAS boxes such as the TS-251 which will include the 'Core' and 'Store' apps. The addition of an endpoint such as their MS200 (£400 Ish) is all that is required to get a Sooloos system. The MS200 i can confirm sounds pretty awesome for what it costs and the MS600 is up there with the very best digital delivery (CD included) you will find.
It used to be a pretty expensive solution to buy when it required all Meridian kit (£10k +) so you will shortly find alot of Sooloos kit going cheap (relatively speaking).
T
The way manufacturers like Philips addressed CD imperfection and
imperfect mechanisms was to provide wobble generator IC's these
introduce a known vibration of sorts in the data stream so that vibration from the
CD itself can be forward anticipated- and you are right a band aid solution
to not getting CD mechanisms right in the first place.
Have you got a source for this, Chris? Not saying you are wrong but I have never heard of it.
As far as mechs go it is important to understand they have no effect on how data is read from the disc. It is possible that a poor mech will vibrate and this mechanical vibration may effect the performance of other components within the player and maybe degrade sound quality in that way. But a cheap ROM mech will read the disc just as well as any fancy Philips swing arm effort. Error correction has no effect on sound quality.
StanleyB
02-11-2015, 09:17
As far as mechs go it is important to understand they have no effect on how data is read from the disc. It is possible that a poor mech will vibrate and this mechanical vibration may effect the performance of other components within the player and maybe degrade sound quality in that way. But a cheap ROM mech will read the disc just as well as any fancy Philips swing arm effort. Error correction has no effect on sound quality.
The early portable players like the Sony D50 showed how vibrations could affect sound quality.
Light Dependant Resistor
02-11-2015, 09:24
Have you got a source for this, Chris? Not saying you are wrong but I have never heard of it.
Hi Martin
The wobble generator is in a TDA8809 which was/is a Philips integrated circuit, see Page 2
http://www.ddrservice.net/f0z/Integrated-circuits/T/tda/8/tda8809t.pdf
GENERAL DESCRIPTION
The TDA8809T is a bipolar integrated circuit which provides control signals for the radial motor. These control signals
are generated from radial error signals received from a photo-diode signal processor (TDA8808), and velocity control
signals from the control processor.
Features
• Tracking error processor with automatic asymmetry control
• AGC circuity with automatic start-up and wobble generator
• Tracking control for fast forward/reverse scan, search, repeat and pause functions
• Radial polarity - 4 - tracks counting
• Possibility for car, home and portable applications.
I have one for instance in my Marantz CD50, along with the sister integrated circuit
the TDA 8808
Cheers / Chris
.
The early portable players like the Sony D50 showed how vibrations could affect sound quality.
Yes , but the effect when you vibrate a portable player - such as when jogging whilst wearing it - is skips and drop outs. The disc doesn't play perfectly but with reduced sound quality as some people seem to think happens.
StanleyB
02-11-2015, 12:55
Yes , but the effect when you vibrate a portable player - such as when jogging whilst wearing it - is skips and drop outs. The disc doesn't play perfectly but with reduced sound quality as some people seem to think happens.
It did more than skip or drop out. One could get the audio playback to sound distorted as well.
Never found portable cds very useful. The md ones were much better. As were cassettes
It did more than skip or drop out. One could get the audio playback to sound distorted as well.
Yes, but that is still an obvious fault issue. What is being contended is that fancy mechs mean better sound quality, cheap mechs mean worse sound quality despite the disc playing perfectly in both and this is not likely to be true. How badly would the mech need to vibrate the player to cause audible distortion, skips and jumps? It would need to be a very poor mech indeed.
StanleyB
02-11-2015, 13:32
It is about three decades ago when the first CD mechanisms entered the market. Since then progress has been made on getting them to operate more reliable. But a CDROM mech is not as reliable as a CDP mech. You can try that out by playing several discs in a PC drive and a CDP. After a period of time the PC drive will start to skip and drop out, whilst the CDP will keep playing without missing a heart beat. The main reason for this is heat build up within the cramped confines of a CDROM drive.
It is about three decades ago when the first CD mechanisms entered the market. Since then progress has been made on getting them to operate more reliable. But a CDROM mech is not as reliable as a CDP mech. You can try that out by playing several discs in a PC drive and a CDP. After a period of time the PC drive will start to skip and drop out, whilst the CDP will keep playing without missing a heart beat. The main reason for this is heat build up within the cramped confines of a CDROM drive.
I d aggree there. I have fairly good quality cdroms external players that sound good but they suffer from vibration and temp outages
Maybe more likely that a PC will be drawing air in from the front which will contain contaminants that could find their way to the lens in the mech. ;) Also CDROMs are built to a price and don't have the greatest MTBF figures...
They may not last as long but what has that go to do with sound quality?
The Black Adder
02-11-2015, 14:23
Don't most cdp's use CDR mechs these days anyway? I thought they did, with some changes of course.
tizer2000uk
02-11-2015, 19:18
Don't most cdp's use CDR mechs these days anyway? I thought they did, with some changes of course.
Meridian use cd/dvd rom drives in all of their kit post 200/500 cd spinners. The reason being greater accuracy on data retrieval. Alot of rom drives are built to a budget and will fail before a dedicated transport built to tighter tolerances and with better components but the upside of using a cheap rom drive is the higher availability of components and a far easier swap out.
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