Vinyl Snake Oil - with apologies to Clifford Stoll

[surv1v0r]

A specialist vinyl shop opened near me recently. They got a lot of publicity in the local free paper with an offer to clean LPs at a special low cost so I took along a couple of regularly played and crackly albums.

While waiting my turn I was fascinated by a conversation between the owner and someone who claimed to have a PhD in Chemistry. "PhD" asked what was in the cleaning fluid and was told that it had been specially researched by the "Cleaner". After extensive questioning it appeared to be nothing more than some mixture of Iso Propyl Alcohol, (lots of) Distilled Water a "Special Wetting Agent".

I am familiar with the first two but "Wetting Agent" appears to be more usually associated with Horticulture - what on earth is it?

More significantly, is Amazon's "Vinyl Record & LP Professional Antistatic Cleaning Solution" at £21.86 for 500 ml likely to be any different?

[mikeyb]

Hi,

Wetting agent is used in the solution to make sure the fluid gets into the grooves properly rather than just sit in the surface.

Ilford photo make the one I use, readily available ( it's used in photo development ) You need 75% distilled water, 25% ISO Propyl and if using those %'s to make a litre say, you need about 5ml of the wetting agent.

For more info just google vinyl lp cleaning ingredients and most will be very similar.

Mike.

[surv1v0r]

Thanks for that. I have seen references to the Ilford Wetting Agent, I'll give it a go. Thanks again.

[PaulStewart]

Ilford Ilfotol is not anti static £21.00 is expensive for 500ml, you can see people thing of our record cleaning fluid by serching this forum and others.

£12.99 per 500ML from us HERE (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Right-One-Vinyl-Record-Cleaning-Fluid-500ml-/191690029044?hash=item2ca19db7f4) and it's cheaper in the larger sizes :)

[mikeyb]

Thanks for that. I have seen references to the Ilford Wetting Agent, I'll give it a go. Thanks again.

Hi,

as Paul mentions it isn't anti static, and to be honest, next time I need any I'll be buying Paul's version ;)

Mike.

[Ali Tait]

Paul's is the best fluid I've come across.

[Marco]

+1 It's a no-brainer. You simply can't get better!

Marco.

[PaulStewart]

Hi,

as Paul mentions it isn't anti static, and to be honest, next time I need any I'll be buying Paul's version ;)

Mike.


Paul's is the best fluid I've come across.


+1 It's a no-brainer. You simply can't get better!

Marco.

Gentlemen, the Mrs. and I thank you, as will our bank manager :)

[daytona600]

Must admit some complete bollox about record cleaning fluids & homemade solutions
why bother making your own , just buy a commercial fluid like Pauls as used & trusted by lots of AOS members

+ after cleaning place in new anti-static liners & vacuum clean if possible under £200 for a Vacuum RCM
or save up for something like a Loricraft looks expensive on paper but spread over decades of use actually works out
very low cost if you have a large record collection & can pay for itself on extended stylus life

if you have a hour video with tips



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUbC2ANXRqY

[surv1v0r]

OK, found something called "L'Art Du Son concentrated record cleaning fluid" which seems to be held in high regard and when diluted with distilled water works out at less than £8 per litre!

The demonstration I saw used a machine that spread the fluid on the record, wiped it for a few revolutions with some sort of brush covering the whole width of the record and then sucked up the fluid with something like a vacuum cleaner.

Using any sort of fluid, is there any way of cleaning LPs without recourse to what is likely to be a VERY expensive machine? I have found the "Knosti Disco Anti Static Record Cleaning Machine" at £40 and the seemingly similar but much more expensive "Spin Clean Record Washer MKII" at £76.13 but so far as I can see they don't hoover off the liquid and dirt, just let it settle at the bottom of a trough.


ps - thanks for the YouTube link Daytona600, I am wading through it at the moment.

pps - there is a great review of the Knosti HERE (http://www.whathifi.com/forum/turntables-and-lps/knosti-disco-anti-stat).

[struth]

OK, found something called "L'Art Du Son concentrated record cleaning fluid" which seems to be held in high regard and when diluted with distilled water works out at less than £8 per litre!

The demonstration I saw used a machine that spread the fluid on the record, wiped it for a few revolutions with some sort of brush covering the whole width of the record and then sucked up the fluid with something like a vacuum cleaner.

Using any sort of fluid, is there any way of cleaning LPs without recourse to what is likely to be a VERY expensive machine? I have found the "Knosti Disco Anti Static Record Cleaning Machine" at £40 and the seemingly similar but much more expensive "Spin Clean Record Washer MKII" at £76.13 but so far as I can see they don't hoover off the liquid and dirt, just let it settle at the bottom of a trough.


ps - thanks for the YouTube link Daytona600, I am wading through it at the moment.

Gazjam has a vacuum type that you use your own vacuum cleaner. he says its very good and is not anywhere near as expensive as a full cleaner. I have heard his records and it does a good job. someone may give you the name of it here...if not PM him

[Ali Tait]

This is it-

http://maquinaphk.xpg.uol.com.br/models.html

Does just as good a job as the more expensive machines, you just need to use your vacuum cleaner with it.

[struth]

This is it-

http://maquinaphk.xpg.uol.com.br/models.html

Does just as good a job as the more expensive machines, you just need to use your vacuum cleaner with it.

Thanks Ali. I couldn't remember its name.

[surv1v0r]

Thanks for that people - PHK Nano Meco - just need to see if there is a UK supplier for it now :)

"L'Art Du Son" does seem to be the most recommended product. The YouTube video seemed to suggest that IPA could harm records )not the beer which should of course be restricted to the operator).

[struth]

I would say Paul's stuff is better than du son. The right one is the best "commercial" cleaner I've used, and Ive used pretty much all of them over the years

[PaulStewart]

Thanks for that people - PHK Nano Meco - just need to see if there is a UK supplier for it now :)

"L'Art Du Son" does seem to be the most recommended product. The YouTube video seemed to suggest that IPA could harm records )not the beer which should of course be restricted to the operator).

Check out the problems with enzyme/mould growth with L'Art du Son, It's been known to block up RCMs if they are left with fluid in the tubes. You have to use it quickly because even sealed in the original bottle it has a short shelf life. The Right One comes pre mixed with lab grade materials, not just de ionised water. if you buy it 5 litres at a time it works out a lot cheaper :)

[PaulStewart]

I would say Paul's stuff is better than du son. The right one is the best "commercial" cleaner I've used, and Ive used pretty much all of them over the years

Thanks for that Grant, can I quote you :)

[surv1v0r]

I would say Paul's stuff is better than du son. The right one is the best "commercial" cleaner I've used, and Ive used pretty much all of them over the yearsPerhaps so. However, it is almost £26 per litre as opposed to less than £8 per litre. I doubt that it is three times as good.

ps - I'll have a look at the five litre price.

pps - £23.99 per litre, no price for five litres on eBay :(

[struth]

Check out the problems with enzyme/mould growth with L'Art du Son, It's been known to block up RCMs if they are left with fluid in the tubes. You have to use it quickly because even sealed in the original bottle it has a short shelf life. The Right One comes pre mixed with lab grade materials, not just de ionised water. if you buy it 5 litres at a time it works out a lot cheaper :)

One of the problems with enzyme cleaners, is that precisely. I have used a few but only sparsely and only on certain records. It has its uses but as a general everyday cleaner, i would say NO.


Thanks for that Grant, can I quote you :)

If you wish Paul :) Ive always said its the best commercial cleaner Ive used. ...Good things dont come extremely cheap and you have to take into account the postage costs of a ready made product. Du Lon you need to source good water and as its bulky it will cost a bit

[Ali Tait]

Thanks for that people - PHK Nano Meco - just need to see if there is a UK supplier for it now :)

"L'Art Du Son" does seem to be the most recommended product. The YouTube video seemed to suggest that IPA could harm records )not the beer which should of course be restricted to the operator).

There isn't, he's a one man band.

[Marco]

Perhaps so. However, it is almost £26 per litre as opposed to less than £8 per litre. I doubt that it is three times as good.


Are you familiar with the term 'a false economy', Aaron? That message is tailor made for this discussion. Here's another one: act in haste [by buying on price], repent at leisure...

My advice would be to digest the contents of post #19, after which you will hopefully arrive at the right decision ;)

Marco.

[karma67]

Yep here's another,
You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead!

[PaulStewart]

Bit of flea bay nonsense as pe the 5 litre size, it's 64.99 incuding next day courier, it's pour and play, no need to source high quality distilled water, etc. You can find it HERE (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/272016046822?)

[surv1v0r]

I am indeed aware of the aphorism that you quote Marco.
Are you aware of the one that goes "A fool and his money are soon parted" and the Latin warning "Caveat Emptor!"?

I will certainly pay heed to comments here for which I am most grateful. I will also read reviews and comments elsewhere on t'Interweb, particularly Amazon.

Incidentally Marco, I notice that you "make up" your own cleaning solution - care to share the details? ;)



Bit of flea bay nonsense as pe the 5 litre size, it's 64.99 incuding next day courier, it's pour and play, no need to source high quality distilled water, etc. You can find it HERE (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/272016046822?)Thanks for that. I take it that once opened, this will remain "good" for years?

[Marco]

I no longer make up my own cleaning fluid, and buy Paul's instead, as it's considerably better (kinder to my records) and a lot less hassle in the long run... So what does that tell you? ;)

Marco.

[PaulStewart]

As far as shelf life goes, I made up a control sample over 10 years ago and it's still as good as the day it was mixed.

[Jimbo]

A specialist vinyl shop opened near me recently. They got a lot of publicity in the local free paper with an offer to clean LPs at a special low cost so I took along a couple of regularly played and crackly albums.

While waiting my turn I was fascinated by a conversation between the owner and someone who claimed to have a PhD in Chemistry. "PhD" asked what was in the cleaning fluid and was told that it had been specially researched by the "Cleaner". After extensive questioning it appeared to be nothing more than some mixture of Iso Propyl Alcohol, (lots of) Distilled Water a "Special Wetting Agent".

I am familiar with the first two but "Wetting Agent" appears to be more usually associated with Horticulture - what on earth is it?

More significantly, is Amazon's "Vinyl Record & LP Professional Antistatic Cleaning Solution" at £21.86 for 500 ml likely to be any different?

Wetting agent could be washing up liquid.

[sq225917]

I used l art du son for years, frankly it's no better than the next thing. The biggest difference for me in cleaning records was swapping to cotton based brushed strips on my record cleaner, that eradicated static build up that came from the synthetic brush strips.

I just use distilled water, film wetting agent and a few drops of ISO.

[surv1v0r]

Wetting agent could be washing up liquid.
I understand now that "Ilfotol" is the favoured wetting agent. It seems that Ilford has ceased to exist and that Ilfotol may now be in short supply. I gather that you only need a very small amount of it per litre of cleaning fluid. You can get it for about £12 per litre!

I have read any number of recipes for DIY cleaning fluid; the commonest appear to advise: 250 ml of IPA, 750 ml of distilled water and 5ml of Ilfotol.

The cheapest "machine" seems to be the Knosti Disco Record Cleaning Machine (RCM) at £40 from Amazon. I have read a suggestion that you should buy two and use one with DIY cleaning fluid for the initial clean and the other with just pure distilled water. This seems reasonable and is is probably the route I will follow.

[rdpx]

I understand now that "Ilfotol" is the favoured wetting agent. It seems that Ilford has ceased to exist and that Ilfotol may now be in short supply. I gather that you only need a very small amount of it per litre of cleaning fluid. You can get it for about £12 per litre!

I have read any number of recipes for DIY cleaning fluid; the commonest appear to advise: 250 ml of IPA, 750 ml of distilled water and 5ml of Ilfotol.

The cheapest "machine" seems to be the Knosti Disco Record Cleaning Machine (RCM) at £40 from Amazon. I have read a suggestion that you should buy two and use one with DIY cleaning fluid for the initial clean and the other with just pure distilled water. This seems reasonable and is is probably the route I will follow.
I might have a second knosti going spare, for the right price... ;)

[Marco]

The cheapest "machine" seems to be the Knosti Disco Record Cleaning Machine (RCM) at £40 from Amazon. I have read a suggestion that you should buy two and use one with DIY cleaning fluid for the initial clean and the other with just pure distilled water. This seems reasonable and is is probably the route I will follow.

By all means do so, but that's not what we would refer to here as an 'RCM'. A proper RCM has a vacuum pump cleaner, which sucks up all the dirt in the grooves loosened by the cleaning fluid, leaving your records not only bone dry, but the grooves, deep down, free from any accumulated wet sludge or crud.

With any non-vacuum pump 'RCM', that simply doesn't happen, so although your records may superficially look clean, the grooves will still contain some of the muck you've loosened from the cleaning process... Therefore, although the Knosti is cheap, it's crap in comparison with a proper semi (or fully) automatic RCM.

To do the job right, you need something that sucks the crud out of the grooves, as otherwise you can rinse your records 'clean', until the cows come home, but your stylus (and ears) will soon tell you, during playback, that your records are far from clean.

No disrespect, Aaron, but are you strapped for cash or just a tight wad? I ask, because you seem determined to do things on the cheap, rather than do the job properly!! ;)

Marco.

[PaulStewart]

I think he's Box13, DQ off TAS or a Box like wind up merchant TBH. To be fair he has generated some debate, but there always seems to be an angle, if you get my drift.

[Macca]

Take Marco's advise and get a proper RCM or if you want to save a few quid the one that Gaz and Ali linked to that you need to attach your vacuum cleaner to. Without the vacuum element you are pissing into the wind.

[rdpx]

I think he's Box13, DQ off TAS or a Box like wind up merchant TBH. To be fair he has generated some debate, but there always seems to be an angle, if you get my drift.

I seem to remember that anyone who suggested that BOX13 was anything other than a genuine poster would get heavily moderated and warned to just accept the patently ridiculous posts at face value. I personally had several posts deleted. I find it kind of bizarre that you can suggest that Aaron is somehow not genuine, when he has been happily posting on this site for two years, and yet not get your post deleted. Even Marco (site owner!!) asks this member if he is a tightwad for not wanting to spend £400 on a piece of kit that isn't even part of the hi-fi chain.

I understand that a proper RCM is the best way to clean records, BUT (and it is a big BUT) a proper RCM costs entry level about £400. Now I have read so many threads where people argue that it pays for itself in the long run and that £400 is actually a good deal etc. and maybe to many on here £400 is a cost you can easily justify. The simple fact is that £400 is a lot of money to many people. I spent £100 on a new stylus and thought that was a lot. £400 on a RCM was something that I could not even begin to justify... when I asked about home made recipes for fluid for my knosti I got pretty short shrift even though I know many respected people on this forum make their own fluid.

AND, there are many threads that talk about the double bath Knosti system. I have also tried this system and can attest that it is a lot better than the single bath method. I can also attest to the fact that doing this is a lot better than NOT CLEANING AT ALL. Clearly a vacuum RCM is the best way, but even then we will get people who will come on and tell people that they are idiots for using home made fluid, or that BRAND X is far superior to BRAND Y and that anyone using BRAND Z might as well be cleaning them with swarf and broken glass.

I can understand Aaron's position completely because I was there myself very recently. He wants to try cleaning his records but doesn't want (or can't afford) to spend £400+ on trying it out.

I agree that spending £80 on 2 knostis is probably not a great way to spend £80, but unless Aaron has 1000+ filthy records then spending £400 + £65 on fluid is a big ask.

From my own experience I have so far spent about £70 on a knosti and home made fluid ingredients, and I would have been happy with that, except I now find myself with a lot of quite valuable records to sell and am beginning to think that an Okki Nokki and maybe even some of Paul's fluid is the way forward for me now. I stress though that this is based purely on the fact that I have some very valuable records to sell that demand professional treatment, and were I just pootling around still with my knackered 30 yr old Bowie reissues and cheap DG and CBS classical vinyl then the Knosti would still keep me happy.

I know RCMs are always a flare-point subject, but we have to remember that to many people £400 is a LOT OF MONEY.

Robert

[Ali Tait]

That's why I posted the link to the Nano Meco, it's only 110 quid, and does as good a job as the more expensive machines.

[surv1v0r]

Thank you for that Robert; I am as you suggest 100% genuine and appreciate your post.

Am I a tight wad? Probably yes if truth be told.
Am I impoverished? Not in terms of the majority of the UK.

However, my wife would certainly not jump for joy if I were to shell out for and attempt to give house room to a Moth, Loricraft, VPI, etc. and I am not certain that I could justify such expenditure to myself either. I entirely understand the consequences in terms of cost resulting from limited production runs but I have had a close look at a VPI HW 16.5 and find it hard to believe that it should cost £650 - Amazon - two left.

My setup is old but of good basic quality consisting of Quad 33/303/FM2, Garrard 401 with SME 3009 SII Improved, Technics SL1210 and an assortment of speakers from Quad, B&W, IMF and Kef - far too many but I can't face parting with any of them. I own (and cherish) about 500 LPs dating from the 60s, 70s and 80s. Friends who are downsizing often give me LPs that they would otherwise bin or take to a Charity Shop - usually The Dark Side of the Moon, Ummagumma, early Led Zeppelin, Dylan and Hendrix - strangely never the Beatles, Stones or The Who? I probably own the same number of CDs, half of them being Classical music.

Until recently I have not really used my turntable for years. A while ago I toyed with the idea of selling off my 401/SME and LPs and moving on to digital but couldn't cope with parting with kit I have collected over many years. Now that I am listening to vinyl again I realise that some of my LPs are far from pristine - they could do with a darned site more than a Dust Bug!

Against this, my Quads are long overdue for servicing, likewise the 401 & SME. I could certainly do with a replacement cartridge. I offer no apologies to anyone for attempting to spend my money as effectively as possible. However, I do genuinely appreciate advice from people who have been associated every day with HiFi and Vinyl for a long time - even if I occasionally choose to ignore it.


Now on to the £110 Nano Meco - that is DEFINITELY more like it - if only the sole manufacturer didn't live in Brazil :(


ps - I tend not to take offence readily - too many years practice ;)

[mikmas]

I understand that a proper RCM is the best way to clean records, BUT (and it is a big BUT) a proper RCM costs entry level about £400. Now I have read so many threads where people argue that it pays for itself in the long run and that £400 is actually a good deal etc. and maybe to many on here £400 is a cost you can easily justify. The simple fact is that £400 is a lot of money to many people. I spent £100 on a new stylus and thought that was a lot. £400 on a RCM was something that I could not even begin to justify... when I asked about home made recipes for fluid for my knosti I got pretty short shrift even though I know many respected people on this forum make their own fluid.

AND, there are many threads that talk about the double bath Knosti system. I have also tried this system and can attest that it is a lot better than the single bath method. I can also attest to the fact that doing this is a lot better than NOT CLEANING AT ALL. Clearly a vacuum RCM is the best way, but even then we will get people who will come on and tell people that they are idiots for using home made fluid, or that BRAND X is far superior to BRAND Y and that anyone using BRAND Z might as well be cleaning them with swarf and broken glass.

Robert


Great post Robert - agree 100%
I am living off a pension (enough but not great) and any hints and tips I pick up here on how to be a 'tight wad' are greatly appreciated.

Like everyone, I would love to have the best but unfortunately the funds I have will only go so far and sometimes a much cheaper option is the only one I can (just) afford and still pay the daily bills - and yes, cheap but not quite optimal is most often better than nothing at all

[mikeyb]

Hi,

If you want to go down the Knosti route I have one you could get for the cost of postage if you like as I now use an Okki Nokki, only thing missing would be the drying rack as I would keep that, but the bath, tray etc are all there.

In fact if you like I can also add in my Ilford wetting agent as I have just ordered some of Pauls magic brew.

Its a nearly full bottle so will last you ages.

Let me know if interested and I can get them parcelled up for posting, provided Royal Mail will allow the postage of liquids.

Mike.

[Ali Tait]

Thank you for that Robert; I am as you suggest 100% genuine and appreciate your post.

Am I a tight wad? Probably yes if truth be told.
Am I impoverished? Not in terms of the majority of the UK.

However, my wife would certainly not jump for joy if I were to shell out for and attempt to give house room to a Moth, Loricraft, VPI, etc. and I am not certain that I could justify such expenditure to myself either. I entirely understand the consequences in terms of cost resulting from limited production runs but I have had a close look at a VPI HW 16.5 and find it hard to believe that it should cost £650 - Amazon - two left.

My setup is old but of good basic quality consisting of Quad 33/303/FM2, Garrard 401 with SME 3009 SII Improved, Technics SL1210 and an assortment of speakers from Quad, B&W, IMF and Kef - far too many but I can't face parting with any of them. I own (and cherish) about 500 LPs dating from the 60s, 70s and 80s. Friends who are downsizing often give me LPs that they would otherwise bin or take to a Charity Shop - usually The Dark Side of the Moon, Ummagumma, early Led Zeppelin, Dylan and Hendrix - strangely never the Beatles, Stones or The Who? I probably own the same number of CDs, half of them being Classical music.

Until recently I have not really used my turntable for years. A while ago I toyed with the idea of selling off my 401/SME and LPs and moving on to digital but couldn't cope with parting with kit I have collected over many years. Now that I am listening to vinyl again I realise that some of my LPs are far from pristine - they could do with a darned site more than a Dust Bug!

Against this, my Quads are long overdue for servicing, likewise the 401 & SME. I could certainly do with a replacement cartridge. I offer no apologies to anyone for attempting to spend my money as effectively as possible. However, I do genuinely appreciate advice from people who have been associated every day with HiFi and Vinyl for a long time - even if I occasionally choose to ignore it.


Now on to the £110 Nano Meco - that is DEFINITELY more like it - if only the sole manufacturer didn't live in Brazil :(


ps - I tend not to take offence readily - too many years practice ;)

Don't worry about him being in Brazil, his comms and customer service are excellent. Just email him if you have any questions.

[daytona600]

Quote
I can understand Aaron's position completely because I was there myself very recently. He wants to try cleaning his records but doesn't want (or can't afford) to spend £400+ on trying it out

can understand £400+ for a Vacuum RCM as over budget

( plug alert ) you can get them for £200


http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?35662-Vacuum-RCM-for-under-%A3200&highlight=record+doctor

[Marco]

My 'tight wad' comment earlier was simply to ascertain whether or not Aaron could afford to by a proper RCM. If not, then there's no issue: you do what you can to keep your records clean, but if you can afford a proper RCM, then why not get one and do the job PROPERLY?

Despite the title of this thread, professional RCMs are NOT 'Snake Oil'! :nono:

Look, it all depends on how many records you've got, and crucially, how important they are to you. For me, many of my records are more important to me (for various personal reasons) than the equipment I use. After all, you can replace equipment, but you can't replace memories....

What gets me isn't when folk can't afford to buy a professional RCM, of course not, and do what they can to clean their records within their budget, but rather (and this doesn't necessarily apply to anyone here) when they'd prefer to spend £400 on a pair of cables or a mains lead instead!! :doh:

Therefore, it's all about getting your priorities right, and so if you've got a quality T/T, cartridge and system, value your record collection and aren't short of cash, then get yer bloody hand in yer pocket, buy a professional RCM, and do the job RIGHT!

:exactly:

Marco.

P.S One thing we should be doing more is those of us who own RCMs offering to clean records belonging to other members in our area, and/or perhaps a group buy, locally, where a number of people chip in to buy a shared RCM. I think that both of those ideas have merit.

[struth]

My 'tight wad' comment earlier was simply to ascertain whether or not Aaron could afford to by a proper RCM. If not, then there's no issue: you do what you can to keep your records clean, but if you can afford a proper RCM, then why not get one and do the job PROPERLY?

Despite the title of this thread, professional RCMs are NOT 'Snake Oil'! :nono:

Look, it all depends on how many records you've got, and crucially, how important they are to you. For me, many of my records are more important to me (for various personal reasons) than the equipment I use. After all, you can replace equipment, but you can't replace memories....

What gets me isn't when folk can't afford to buy a professional RCM, of course not, and do what they can to clean their records within their budget, but rather (and this doesn't necessarily apply to anyone here) when they'd prefer to spend £400 on a pair of cables or a mains lead instead!! :doh:

Therefore, it's all about getting your priorities right, and so if you've got a quality T/T, cartridge and system, value your record collection and aren't short of cash, then get yer bloody hand in your pocket, buy a professional RCM, and do the job RIGHT!

:exactly:

Marco.

P.S One thing we should be doing more is those of us who own RCMs offering to clean records of other members in our area, and/or perhaps a group buy, locally, where a number of people chip in to buy a shared RCM. I think that both of those ideas have merit.


Good idea, although no-one would want me to clean their precious memories with the poison I use ;)

[rdpx]

Good idea, although no-one would want me to clean their precious memories with the poison I use ;)

I've heard you add chip fat to your miracle brew, Grant.


Hear, hear and big thanks to the helping other members idea. I have just come back from having a few records done on a Loricraft at a local AoSer's pad, and we had a fine time listening to all sorts from Oistrakh to Mingus... The only downside is that my GB1s now seems woefully inadequate after a few hours listening to some large Harbeths.

[Rothchild]

I understand now that "Ilfotol" is the favoured wetting agent. It seems that Ilford has ceased to exist and that Ilfotol may now be in short supply. I gather that you only need a very small amount of it per litre of cleaning fluid. You can get it for about £12 per litre!

I have read any number of recipes for DIY cleaning fluid; the commonest appear to advise: 250 ml of IPA, 750 ml of distilled water and 5ml of Ilfotol.

The cheapest "machine" seems to be the Knosti Disco Record Cleaning Machine (RCM) at £40 from Amazon. I have read a suggestion that you should buy two and use one with DIY cleaning fluid for the initial clean and the other with just pure distilled water. This seems reasonable and is is probably the route I will follow.

I started with a 'Disco' cleaner and whilst it was better than nothing it was a pain to get really good results with, recently I augmented it with a PHK Nano Meco (using a solution similar to what you've listed here) and now I'm getting really good results.

IMO it is a false economy not to have a vacuum RCM.

[Marco]

I think Grant posted a link to this video earlier, but for all those who think a quick wash with a Knosti (or similar) is enough to clean your records, it really is worth watching, as well as being somewhat sobering viewing...


pUbC2ANXRqY


Watch and learn, all ye sceptics! ;)

Marco.

[daytona600]

My 'tight wad' comment earlier was simply to ascertain whether or not Aaron could afford to by a proper RCM. If not, then there's no issue: you do what you can to keep your records clean, but if you can afford a proper RCM, then why not get one and do the job PROPERLY?

Despite the title of this thread, professional RCMs are NOT 'Snake Oil'! :nono:

Look, it all depends on how many records you've got, and crucially, how important they are to you. For me, many of my records are more important to me (for various personal reasons) than the equipment I use. After all, you can replace equipment, but you can't replace memories....

What gets me isn't when folk can't afford to buy a professional RCM, of course not, and do what they can to clean their records within their budget, but rather (and this doesn't necessarily apply to anyone here) when they'd prefer to spend £400 on a pair of cables or a mains lead instead!! :doh:

Therefore, it's all about getting your priorities right, and so if you've got a quality T/T, cartridge and system, value your record collection and aren't short of cash, then get yer bloody hand in yer pocket, buy a professional RCM, and do the job RIGHT!

:exactly:

Marco.

P.S One thing we should be doing more is those of us who own RCMs offering to clean records belonging to other members in our area, and/or perhaps a group buy, locally, where a number of people chip in to buy a shared RCM. I think that both of those ideas have merit.

100% Agree if you value your records Marco a RCMs is a essential component
i just bought one of these with 5 disc auto stacker
for my own & clients records



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wesKVA6bAdE

[surv1v0r]

Don't worry about him being in Brazil, his comms and customer service are excellent. Just email him if you have any questions.My concern really is the fact that if anything were to go wrong with the device I would have to deal with someone in Brazil. Don't get me wrong, I think the device is great, as is the £199 Record Doctor V (http://snvinyl.co.uk/Record-Doctor-V-RCMRecord-Cleaning-Machine) referred to by daytona600.

During my quest I stumbled across the idea of Extreme record cleaning with PVA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1sBcBnmw24) - seems highly improbable, has anyone here actually tried this?

[Macca]

During my quest I stumbled across the idea of Extreme record cleaning with PVA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1sBcBnmw24) - seems highly improbable, has anyone here actually tried this?

Yes there are a few threads about it here and on other sites. I've tried it and it does work. Not as good as a proper RCM but it does radically improve noisy records. Indeed it was what convinced me that it was worth getting a proper RCM as it is far too messy and time consuming to do a whole collection that way.

[Marco]

The Record Doctor V, Scott's selling, looks to me like a no-brainer... Well designed, available in the UK, and priced at a 'tight-wad' friendly level, too!! :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

[Thebiglebowski]

My concern really is the fact that if anything were to go wrong with the device I would have to deal with someone in Brazil. Don't get me wrong, I think the device is great, as is the £199 Record Doctor V (http://snvinyl.co.uk/Record-Doctor-V-RCMRecord-Cleaning-Machine) referred to by daytona600.

During my quest I stumbled across the idea of Extreme record cleaning with PVA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1sBcBnmw24) - seems highly improbable, has anyone here actually tried this?

My advice would be if you only have a few records and mainly buy new get a Knosti and use Pauls fluid.

If you have quite a few records or buy secondhand get an Okki Nokki and use Pauls fluid.

I've tried the knosti, art du son and others etc but have now settled on an Okki Nokki and Pauls cleaning fluid. The Moth, Okki and VPI RCMs are all more or less the same but I chose the Okki as it looks better than the others.

The important point is if buying secondhand records you really need a good RCM.

[Lodgesound]

My 'tight wad' comment earlier was simply to ascertain whether or not Aaron could afford to by a proper RCM. If not, then there's no issue: you do what you can to keep your records clean, but if you can afford a proper RCM, then why not get one and do the job PROPERLY?

Despite the title of this thread, professional RCMs are NOT 'Snake Oil'! :nono:

Look, it all depends on how many records you've got, and crucially, how important they are to you. For me, many of my records are more important to me (for various personal reasons) than the equipment I use. After all, you can replace equipment, but you can't replace memories....

What gets me isn't when folk can't afford to buy a professional RCM, of course not, and do what they can to clean their records within their budget, but rather (and this doesn't necessarily apply to anyone here) when they'd prefer to spend £400 on a pair of cables or a mains lead instead!! :doh:

Therefore, it's all about getting your priorities right, and so if you've got a quality T/T, cartridge and system, value your record collection and aren't short of cash, then get yer bloody hand in yer pocket, buy a professional RCM, and do the job RIGHT!

:exactly:

Marco.

P.S One thing we should be doing more is those of us who own RCMs offering to clean records belonging to other members in our area, and/or perhaps a group buy, locally, where a number of people chip in to buy a shared RCM. I think that both of those ideas have merit.

Spot on there Marco...

Where valuable carrier material is concerned one has to invest for longevity and preservation of said materials.

On a slightly elevated note from a professional standpoint we have master tapes at my workplace worth many hundreds of thousands of pounds (each I might add).

The machines on which we play and thus preserve these master tapes are worth currently in the order of £120 000 - each. There are currently 6 in existence working in the UK.

The heads in these machines cost £6500 and last for a maximum of 1500 hours.

The cleaning machines (dry) that the tapes are passed through before they are played and preserved cost £32 000.

Not just worth the money but utterly essential against the value of the material concerned.

[karma67]

My concern really is the fact that if anything were to go wrong with the device I would have to deal with someone in Brazil. Don't get me wrong, I think the device is great, as is the £199 Record Doctor V (http://snvinyl.co.uk/Record-Doctor-V-RCMRecord-Cleaning-Machine) referred to by daytona600.

During my quest I stumbled across the idea of Extreme record cleaning with PVA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1sBcBnmw24) - seems highly improbable, has anyone here actually tried this?

i used to use glue as well,it does work but i now use this method of cleaning, http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41037-record-cleaning-on-the-cheap

[Barry]

i used to use glue as well,it does work but i now use this method of cleaning, http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41037-record-cleaning-on-the-cheap

There is also this: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29230-A-DIY-RCM

[Phil Lawton]

A recent convert here...I have the Record Doctor V (based on - and previously manufactured by, apparently - the Nitty Gritty machines) and use Paul Stewart's The Right One fluid.

Truly remarkable results, even when compared to my now redundant Spin Clean.

The Record Doctor was £199 (although I had the upgraded package with extra fluid and a sackful of poly-lined sleeves) and Paul's cleaning fluid is about £13 a bottle. I couldn't be happier with the results and I didn't have to bankrupt myself to get it together.

[rdpx]

I cracked.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/31/1a9fc18add8b44b486808d07a73664e4.jpg

[Macca]

Nice one. Very pretty the Nokki's, aren't they? My Moth is much more industrial looking - would not pass the WAF test.

I agree with your earlier comments about £400 being a lot of money to some people - it is to me, and I prevaricated for a long time. But now when I listen to records that were previously unplayable and now play as clear as a CD I know it was worth it.

[sq225917]

The Okki Nokki's are decent and if you sell it on you'll nearly get what you paid for it. very happy with mine

[mikmas]

I cracked.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/31/1a9fc18add8b44b486808d07a73664e4.jpg

Is a sprinkling of herbs mandatory?

[rdpx]

Note also the kettle. I like to boil up a little parsley in with the distilled water. It really opens up the bass notes.

[emoji2]

[struth]

Note also the kettle. I like to boil up a little parsley in with the distilled water. It really opens up the bass notes.

[emoji2]

Thought you were steaming them there first. A nice attractive gizmo Rupert. mine is pretty ugly, like martins... a moth...yours, a butterfly

[Audio Advent]

I started with a 'Disco' cleaner and whilst it was better than nothing it was a pain to get really good results with, recently I augmented it with a PHK Nano Meco (using a solution similar to what you've listed here) and now I'm getting really good results.

IMO it is a false economy not to have a vacuum RCM.


100% Agree if you value your records Marco a RCMs is a essential component
i just bought one of these with 5 disc auto stacker
for my own & clients records



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wesKVA6bAdE

Well there is a $4000 false economy right there!! No vaccuum, just fan dried .

In terms of a business buying one of those machines it becomes part of the PR " we use only the best, $4000 cleaning machines from KLAudio ! " because it builds on the PR and money alreadu spend promoting the KL Audio product and gaining a "reputation". Sadly that's the reality of a consumer market - they like to see brands with established reputations rather than any unknown make of equipment being used on their precious vinyl.

Aside from that though, as a product in itself.. I see that $4000 machine as the snake oil the thread's title is calling on.

Here, for example, is someone back in 2010 (before these multi-thousand dollar cleaners came to market) just dipping their vinyl in a regular $300 ultrasonic cleaner bath to suplement their normal vinyl cleaning method of a Knosti DiscoAntistat: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ultrasonic-cleaners-baths-on-vinyl-records.235771/

In 2008 a Norwegian guy on DIYAudio.com came up with the idea of making an ultrasonic vinyl cleaner with the same rotary method - again long before there were any commercial products: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/120394-i-made-myself-record-cleaner.html

So a $200 - $300 ultrasonic cleaner is taken, fitted with a motor and a fan or two and then encased in a fancy box with thick, styled ali cladding... and suddenly it is a $4000 cleaner with folks like the guy in the video reacting by saying "fantastic invention!". I see that as pulling the wool over people's eyes and therefore akin to being Snake Oil.

What's the price to the UK? If a private individual were to buy one, I'd say it were a case of a fool and his money being easily parted.

[Audio Advent]

A combo of a Knosti-style self-rotating brush thing into an ultrasonic bath with a DIY suction happy ending could possibly be the best vfm coupled with best methods.

From the begining of the thread, a wetting fluid will probably be something which gets rid of the surface tension of the cleaning fluid so that it gets into the smallest grooves, but in this instance one which leaves no traces behind (like washing up liquid might).

[rdpx]

A nice attractive gizmo Rupert.


Thanks, Grunt.

;)

I'm very pleased with it.