View Full Version : making your own interconnects
as above,i fancy giving it a bash,ive done some reading up on the net and it would seem Mogami 2549 cable is a good choice,does anyone know where i can buy this off the reel?
any help or tips in making them up are gratefully received!
Just follow the party line and use Klotz AC110 or MC5000 instead. Bloody good cables once given a few hours use (I don't know why it needs it but all mine have done) and if you use the MS Starline plugs, it's easier to terminate. Pros love the stuff!
By the way, some suitable heatshrink and a ruler to measure it would be an advantage. Brian here does a superbly neat job - and it's not a ten minute job either if you're as neat as he is.
Just follow the party line and use Klotz AC110 or MC5000 instead.
Was toying with making up a couple with Klotz to try - any one know this supplier and is the price about right? (£1.73 pm)
https://www.studiospares.com/Cables-Leads/Cable-Guitar/Klotz-AC110-High-End-Guitar-Cable_544590.htm
DarrenHW
08-10-2015, 17:27
What DSJR said http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?33332-MS-Audio-Klotz-MC5000-interconnects-build-offer-for-all-AoS-members&highlight=Klotz+MC5000
To make them helping hands or a small vice make the job a lot easier. I like mine with the shield connected to ground at the source only but opinions differ here, worth trying different arrangements.
As a really cheap option you could try some Van Damme XKE Instrument and some Neutrik plugs, excellent VFM but bettered by MC5000 and MS Audio IMHO.
walpurgis
08-10-2015, 17:28
Try a bit of Audio Note 150 AN-C http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/audio-note-ancable150-interconnect-cable-p-4058.html
Lovely sounding cable. No top end nasties at all! Good value for the quality too.
DarrenHW
08-10-2015, 17:30
Try a bit of Audio Note 150 AN-C http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/audio-note-ancable150-interconnect-cable-p-4058.html
Lovely sounding cable. No top end nasties at all! Good value for the quality too.
Is that price per metre?
Why not go for this: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/audio-note-cable-sootto-sootto-silver-grey.html? :lol:
Quite frankly, any microphone cable from Klotz, Gotham or Van Damme will be fine.
Why not go for this: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/audio-note-cable-sootto-sootto-silver-grey.html? :lol:
Quite frankly, any microphone cable from Klotz, Gotham or Van Damme will be fine.
jesus h christ!
thanks guys for your links :)
Is that price per metre?
it looks like it! :(
DarrenHW
08-10-2015, 17:46
It now looks like a bargain after Barry's link :eek:.
walpurgis
08-10-2015, 17:54
Is that price per metre?
Yes. As far as I'm aware. That's what it seems to sell for by the stereo metre, but there's a contact link on the site if you want to confirm.
How about this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Valab-Pure-Silver-Litz-Structure-Audio-Internal-Wire-adw0-/321884679696
Valab Pure Silver litz wire 25/0.12mm strands and only £5 a metre.
If you want to make a really good pair of cables, for a very small sum get the desired length of that stuff and run just one line in each direction.
An easy way to get some possible benefits from damping/insulation run each of these wires inside it's own 5mm silicon hose. Put both hoses into a section of 12mm braid and attach some fat RCA plugs on the end.
I have found these Cardas copies to be extremely good value for money:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8pcs-Pure-Copper-OFC-Silver-Plated-RCA-Connector-Plug-NEW-AR-/331090817285
They aren't actually pure copper, but brass (which is mostly copper) but for under £1.50 each offer outstanding valueand they fit the 12mm braid nicely.
4% silver solder makes a big difference. Here's 15 metres for under 8 quid:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5m-SOLDER-WIRE-LEAD-FREE-4-SILVER-2-FLUX-0-7mm-/110551587168
I bought some a couple of years ago and am only onto the second spool recently after building 4 DACs, 3 amps and a pile of cables.
Does anyone have a link for the ms plugs or is it an eBay job?
Does anyone have a link for the ms plugs or is it an eBay job?
Iget mine from here Jaime http:// http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MS-Audio-Star-Line-Silver-Plated-Tellurium-Copper-RCA-Plugs-2-Pair-/321871242323?hash=item4af1056453 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MS-Audio-Star-Line-Silver-Plated-Tellurium-Copper-RCA-Plugs-2-Pair-/321871242323?hash=item4af1056453")
But be patient as they take a month or so to arrive
orbscure
08-10-2015, 19:00
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321871242323 ;)
Cheers Pete apparently i'm helpful but crap at links
DarrenHW
08-10-2015, 19:13
Available in 3 flavors, I have Rhodium http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MS-Audio-Star-Line-Rhodium-Plated-Tellurium-Copper-RCA-Plugs-2-Pair-/221890947313?hash=item33a9bb28f1 and also available in Gold http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MS-Audio-Star-Line-Gold-Plated-Tellurium-Copper-RCA-Plugs-2-Pairs-/321884679682?hash=item4af1d26e02
Thanks everyone, I've now got everything I need to start.
Much appreciated.
Which one of these three versions is the best? I am about to order one for my klotz but confused on these optıons. What kind of sonic differences should i expect?
Thanks
walpurgis
08-10-2015, 19:38
I don't like plugs with small contact areas. You just know they'll chafe through the plating on the sockets eventually and the conductive cross section is limited.
awkwardbydesign
08-10-2015, 21:03
I don't like plugs with small contact areas. You just know they'll chafe through the plating on the sockets eventually and the conductive cross section is limited.
The point of less metal is to reduce eddy currents. Apparently. And rhodium plating, which is what I choose, is much harder wearing than gold or silver.
The point of less metal is to reduce eddy currents. Apparently. And rhodium plating, which is what I choose, is much harder wearing than gold or silver.
What eddy currents? :scratch:
walpurgis
08-10-2015, 21:24
What eddy currents? :scratch:
I wondered too. The seller is quoting from elsewhere. I've seen that spec almost word for word before, but can't recall where it was.
heard of eddy currents in a shielded cable around the shield but not on the tip...something new every day
awkwardbydesign
08-10-2015, 22:01
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/bullet.html
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/steps-towards-a-good-hifi-system/the-terminator-phono-plugs/
Those 'explanations' show a complete misunderstanding of how current flows in a conductor. There are no eddy currents in the plug/connector.. Eddy currents are closed circular loops of current flow within a conductor, just like water eddies that are small circular whirlpools in water, whereas the main flow of water, or of current is linear and flows through the conductor.
awkwardbydesign
09-10-2015, 11:11
Those 'explanations' show a complete misunderstanding of how current flows in a conductor. There are no eddy currents in the plug/connector.. Eddy currents are closed circular loops of current flow within a conductor, just like water eddies that are small circular whirlpools in water, whereas the main flow of water, or of current is linear and flows through the conductor.
Which is why they have reduced the amount of metal and number of contact points in the plug! They do explain this.
Audio Advent
09-10-2015, 11:20
From a quick google and finding some lecture notes from a Physics course: http://web.hep.uiuc.edu/home/serrede/P435/Lecture_Notes/P435_Lect_23.pdf
Page 5 - (I couldn't copy and past the equations):
Note that this surface current [equation] which is created by an externally-created [equation for a magnetic field] in the metal is associated with real power losses/real power dissipation because of the acceleration/deceleration of free electrons in the metal (which is a time-irreversible process). Such induced macroscopic currents in conductors/metals, caused by an induced macroscopic EMF [big equation here] are known as Eddy currents.
.....
Eddy currents in metals can also be used beneficially e.g. to cook food by induction heating -> Place food in metal container in proximity to intense alternating BG-field.
According to the above, Eddy currents are induced surface currents due to a changing magnetic field. Audio signals are changing magnetic fields and plugs/sockets have metal, conducting surfaces. The example of induction heating shows that no current flow is needed to create an Eddy current within the surface of a metal - they are entirely induced by a changing magnetic field, not current.
I remember doing something to demonstrate eddies in A-level physics at school - was something like an aluminium disc with a handle on it which you turned, passing through an electromagnetic field you could turn on and off. You could feel the back EMF caused by the eddies in the aluminium disc when the electromagnet was on - no current flows there, only the eddies.
The explanations in the links above talk about how a plug and socket don't make perfect contact so there are small gaps between the surfaces of the plug and socket, creating variable capacitance (would that create a kind of high pass filter?) and also causing small arcing when they are almost touching. And it talks of multiple contact points doing something - didn't understand that bit. They all seem valid in terms of reality - just whether it effects the sound is up for question.
I'm not denying that eddy currents cannot exist, they can and they do: the fine speed control on my TT uses an eddy current break.
The circumferential magnetic fields created by the current flowing in the centre core of a coaxial cable, induce in turn current to flow in the shield of the cable, but this current is axial and flows longitudinally along the cable shield. The induced current does not flow in eddies.
The rest of the blurb about less-than-perfect contact by some of the 'fingers' of the outer contact causing a gap with a variable capacitance, whilst true is irrelevant. There will be some DC contact somewhere in the outer contact, and this contact effectively shorts out the capacitance. This is a red herring. So too is the talk about micro-arcing. How is the voltage required to cause an arc created when the capacitative gap is shorted?
I have no objection to people preferring the use of 'bullet' plugs for reasons of SQ (though I don't hear any improvement or difference myself); what I do object to is the pseudo techno-babble that manufacturers use in their promotional description of RCA phono connectors and interconnects.
Audio Advent
09-10-2015, 13:49
I'm not denying that eddy currents cannot exist, they can and they do: the fine speed control on my TT uses an eddy current break.
The circumferential magnetic fields created by the current flowing in the centre core of a coaxial cable, induce in turn current to flow in the shield of the cable, but this current is axial and flows longitudinally along the cable shield. The induced current does not flow in eddies.
The rest of the blurb about less-than-perfect contact by some of the 'fingers' of the outer contact causing a gap with a variable capacitance, whilst true is irrelevant. There will be some DC contact somewhere in the outer contact, and this contact effectively shorts out the capacitance. This is a red herring. So too is the talk about micro-arcing. How is the voltage required to cause an arc created when the capacitative gap is shorted?
I have no objection to people preferring the use of 'bullet' plugs for reasons of SQ (though I don't hear any improvement or difference myself); what I do object to is the pseudo techno-babble that manufacturers use in their promotional description of RCA phono connectors and interconnects.
Me too - but judging whether something is pseudo techno-babble or just very badly explained, real phenomina worded for lay people so that it no-longer makes sense to those with some scientific knowledge is not so easy without direct input from those making the claims.
Eddies ARE current flow in and of themselves, localised current flow. All current flow creates electro-magnetic fields which interact and change other magnetic fields. Essentially, audio signals are electro-magnetic fields which happen all at once - the common idea to think of current or voltage as the signal is only seeing part of the picture, perhaps a small part of it. Any induced micro electro-magnetic field will effect the macro electo-magnetic field in a way which smears in time and can attenuate in magnitude certain aspects of that macro electro-magnetic field.
Again, whether normal plugs, especially given the size of them compared to the whole signal chain, cause any effects in the audio range to any significant degree is a matter for research or failing that just normal audiophile speculative circuclar debate between believers and non-believers. As a fence sitter on cables and plugs, it's boring to watch.
In terms of making cables, I'd use plugs which work practically, feel solid in use and easy to fit. I like the KLE versions because of this - don't really like the Eichman ones unless they have the metal bodies - the plastic they use feels flimsy. The small contact area makes them less damaging in my view to sockets as they are much much easier to pull off whilst making a good feeling, solid connection. I've had more problems with broken sockets than any plating issues from tight contacts in my past. I personally don't like those locking plugs either because they're just a pain to do up in awkward positions and so often a pain to solder.
I should say also that I think they are all over-priced new too. I've only ever bought the plugs secondhand and attached to cables and because of the cables attached, I rarely make my own cables either! Got some nice RFC Pluto Mk11s for £45 odd quid recently via ebay - nice KLE pugs, but nice cables too so no need to make my own.
My current opinion is that some of these things (also 'phase response' as put about by TQ) may possibly apply to rf frequencies and higher, but *shouldn't* have any effect on audio frequencies at line level (he says and ducks for cover :lol:)
By the way, the Cardas copy plugs - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8pcs-Pure-Copper-OFC-Silver-Plated-RCA-Connector-Plug-NEW-AR-/331090817285 can suffer varying degrees of fit (:eyebrows:). Two of the quad I bought were fine, but the other two basically locked themselves to the socket and it was very difficult to extract them. The MS plugs do look posher, it's easy to solder two inner cores (as in mic cable) to the terminals inside and they're slick to use.
Dont mind making speaker cable up but not interconnects...admire folk that do a good job but it requires was too much dexterity and patience for me. As for eddys i think i will stay on the very high fence
Firebottle
09-10-2015, 15:45
Essentially, audio signals are electro-magnetic fields which happen all at once
Well I've been keeping quiet up till now but this talk of eddy current in connectors is bollocks.
Sorry Sam but audio signals are not electro-magnetic fields, radio frequency transmission is an example of an electro-magnetic field.
:)
Audio Advent
09-10-2015, 16:32
You have to be sorry towards me - you should go straight to the nearest physics department and explain where electro-magnetic field threory is wrong.
Current flow, voltage differentials and elecro-magnetic fields are all essentially parts of the same phenomena - you can't have one without the other. You run a current through a wire and you create an electro-magnetic field. You create a moving elecromagnetic field around a wire and a current flows.
It sounds to me as you use the phrase "electo-magnetic fields" to mean something specific (perhaps self-propogating electro-magnetic fields) whereas in science it has a wider definition including those fields created by moving charged particles like electons.
Whether the eddies effect the sound might well be bollox but the effect of a changing electro-magnetic field creating reflections in conducting surfaces is not.
This might blow your mind: Light reflecting off a surface is an electro-magnetic field inducing movement of charged particles on the reflecting surface which then mirror and re-create that electro-magnetic field so that it propagates back. Kind of like eddy currents if thought of in a round-a-bout way. It's no coincidence that polished conductors are great reflectors (or in other words that metals are shiny when smooth).
Eddy currents from a changing electro-magnetic field are the science behind the old floating magnet when cooled with liquid nitrogen - I'm sure you've seen the kind of thing. Because a super-cooled super-conducting material has no resistance, a complete 180' image of the floating magnet's own electro-magnetic field is produced on the super-conductor's surface, creating a magnetic force against the magnet, opposing gravity. This only works when the electro-magnetic field is changing e.g. the magnet is spinning.
Science museum London, in the kids bit - there are bars made out of plastic, copper, brass, aluminium. You slide a magnet down the plastic and nothing happens. You place the magnet on the ali and it doesn't stick, but slide it down the ali bar and it begins to stick - the movement of the magnetic field creates eddy currents in the metal bar which in turn creates a magnetic field, interacting with the magnet's one and causes attraction to an otherwise non-magnetic material. As the conductivity of the metal increases, the more easily the electrons can move, the stronger the electro-magnetic field that is created and the more it interacts with the magnet's own field. It doesn't have to be a permanent magnet creating this effect, it can be an electro-magnet too such as that which a changing current down a wire is..
Ahhh...cable debates...don't you just love 'em? :lol:
I've kept quiet up until now, but Barry and Alan have valid points here. No-one is denying the presence of induced eddy currents BUT they are NOT the primary means of signal propagation and I think in this context, they are most certainly being confused with electromagnetic fields formed by current flowing in a conductor. Eddy currents may be induced perpendicular to the electromagnetic field and can be caused by external influences (so called "noise" currents inducted into interconnects which are unshielded for example) and their sources are usually nearby unshielded alternating EMI fields from things like power supplies and the like (transformers are good examples).
As to what makes current, hence a signal flow, whenever a current is present in any conductor, it radiates an electromagnetic field. The lower the power of the signal, the smaller the radiated field. However, alternating electromagnetic fields are NOT what causes current to flow nor are they the prime carrier of audio signals. Voltage differential causes current to flow and the signal most definitely is carried down the conductor, not ethereally in a cloud of electrons around the conductor. Without a voltage differential, no current flows and no electromagnetic fields are formed around the conductor. It's basic electronics learnt at school.
awkwardbydesign
09-10-2015, 16:45
Again, whether normal plugs, especially given the size of them compared to the whole signal chain, cause any effects in the audio range to any significant degree is a matter for research or failing that just normal audiophile speculative circuclar debate between believers and non-believers. As a fence sitter on cables and plugs, it's boring to watch.
In terms of making cables, I'd use plugs which work practically, feel solid in use and easy to fit. I like the KLE versions because of this - don't really like the Eichman ones unless they have the metal bodies - the plastic they use feels flimsy. The small contact area makes them less damaging in my view to sockets as they are much much easier to pull off whilst making a good feeling, solid connection. I've had more problems with broken sockets than any plating issues from tight contacts in my past. I personally don't like those locking plugs either because they're just a pain to do up in awkward positions and so often a pain to solder.
When I quoted the eddy current explanation, I added "apparently". I have no way of knowing or testing the truth of it, I was simply mentioning the manufacturer's reasons.
As for using plugs, I like the MS ones; they are easy to work with, make good contact and are easy to plug and unplug. I have several locking plugs on earlier leads, and some screw in and some screw out to lock! A nightmare in the dark behind an amp, especially if the sleeves then fall off down the back! Although they can be handy with heavy cables.
The CMC rhodium plated version are my choice of RCA socket, but they are getting more expensive now. I like sockets that insert from the inside of the case, as pcbs can be removed without unsoldering.
Signal transmission along a transmission line (which for audio can be a coaxial line or a twisted pair) can be described either by the current flow in the conductors, or by the electric fields between the conductors and the magnetic field surrounding the conductors. The two are not separate, they are related by Maxwell's equations, which apply regardless of frequency. However depending on the geometry of the transmission line and the frequency of the signal, one description may be more convenient and useful over the other.
It is more convenient to visualise current flows when the signal is low frequency (as they are for audio signals), whereas the visualisation of the electromagnetic field is useful at high frequencies (i.e. radio frequencies). At very, very high frequencies (> 1GHz), signals are transmitted by waveguides, hollow conducting tubes usually of rectangular, but sometimes, circular cross-section. At these frequencies it is unhelpful to talk about voltages and currents since they are distributed and difficult to visualise, so it is better to talk about the electromagnetic fields set up within the waveguide.
Audio Advent
09-10-2015, 17:33
When I quoted the eddy current explanation, I added "apparently". I have no way of knowing or testing the truth of it, I was simply mentioning the manufacturer's reasons.
As for using plugs, I like the MS ones; they are easy to work with, make good contact and are easy to plug and unplug. I have several locking plugs on earlier leads, and some screw in and some screw out to lock! A nightmare in the dark behind an amp, especially if the sleeves then fall off down the back! Although they can be handy with heavy cables.
The CMC rhodium plated version are my choice of RCA socket, but they are getting more expensive now. I like sockets that insert from the inside of the case, as pcbs can be removed without unsoldering.
Definately the locking ones are good for heavy cables - nothing keeps grip so well without damage to the sockets.
I dont like tight fitting plugs(or clothes:eyebrows:), and try not to use them as they can do a lot of damage.
brian2957
09-10-2015, 17:49
Yup , like a bit of '' wiggle '' space meself :lol:
Does anyone else remember Eddy Currents appearance on the 1978 Royal Variety Show? Not bad for a northern club singer.
Audio Advent
09-10-2015, 18:55
Ahhh...cable debates...don't you just love 'em? :lol:
Nah, boring. Physics debates! I do actually like them... makes me look stuff up.
What you were saying seems to me to be about DC. I'm talking about AC signals and their associated electro-magnetic fields. An alternating voltage differential doesn't happen first, it all happens all at once within the realms of Special Relativity. You can produce a voltage differential by acting to create an alternating electro-magnetic field (that's how AC is generated for the mains or any EM interference on unshielded cables) or you can generate EM fields by acting to create an alternating voltage differential. How you approach it may colour your thinking on what comes first - but in essence they all come about instantly at once.
Eddies in a conductor are separate from that. Eddies can be created in any conductor via a constantly changing EM field and the EM field will then in turn (manner of speaking - it happens instantly, relativistically) modulate the original EM field which in turn... etc etc until a kind of "equilibrium of influence" is achieved, err instantly. That conductor needn't be connected in any way to anything. The magnitude of it's effect is debatable and it's audible effect at audio frequencies debatable too.
Audio Advent
09-10-2015, 18:56
Does anyone else remember Eddy Currents appearance on the 1978 Royal Variety Show? Not bad for a northern club singer.
:lol: You sure he wasn't an early Steve Coogan character?
killie99
09-10-2015, 20:53
http://www.hhb.co.uk/ for any Mogami off the reel. 2549 or 2965 makes excellent interconnects.
The Mogami is very good quality and robust, just solder a pair of RCAs and you're away.
However, as a general guide to good wire that can be screened and sheathed, anything with Teflon/PTFE insulation is a very good bet for the simple reason that teflon is expensive and wouldn't be paired with a poor conductor.
Johnswireshop.com is a great place to buy a few metres of silver plated, exotically insulated cable. For the extra tenner involved in the finished product it's well worth it IMHO. 28-24AWG wire is more than thick enough for interconnects.
Remember that cable is chemistry and physics, not marketing. There is only a certain amount of different insulators and conductors, maybe 6 conductors and 4 insulators making 24 basic types of cable. The way they are constructed can make a difference so say there are 6 main ways, that's still only 144 cables. Therefore the main thing which distinguishes the hundreds of different options for cable is the way that they are marketed. i.e. how can we present the same product in a new and interesting way to make people think that it's something new.
OCC (continuous casting) and cryo treatment make a difference to the perceived performance of high purity metals, but otherwise anything that says pure and is wrapped in a good dielectric is going to give you very good performance.
The very finest wire I have found anywhere in the world is 99.99999% pure silver, continuously cast as a single crystal and deep cryo frozen afterwards, then wrapped in teflon. This is the best conductor (graphene is not usable yet) on the planet as far as my research tells me, and 0.5mm solid wire of this type is available at £16 per metre. That stuff will give ANY interconnect a run for its money and you can make a pair of 50cm interconnects with smart looking braid and nice plugs for £50.
I believe the hugely expensive and highly regarded Missing Link Cryo Ref cables to be made of this stuff with a set of Eichmann plugs, and I know for a fact the Cryo Ref speaker cables are made of this because I took mine apart to check. They run 4x0.5mm in each direction so a 1.5m pair of cables requires 24 metres of wire (£325).
walpurgis
09-10-2015, 21:16
http://www.hhb.co.uk/ for any Mogami off the reel. 2549 or 2965 makes excellent interconnects.
They look interesting. Good prices too. Not tried Mogami, I might get some.
Audio Advent
09-10-2015, 21:43
The very finest wire I have found anywhere in the world is 99.99999% pure silver, continuously cast as a single crystal and deep cryo frozen afterwards, then wrapped in teflon. This is the best conductor (graphene is not usable yet) on the planet as far as my research tells me, and 0.5mm solid wire of this type is available at £16 per metre. That stuff will give ANY interconnect a run for its money and you can make a pair of 50cm interconnects with smart looking braid and nice plugs for £50.
I believe the hugely expensive and highly regarded Missing Link Cryo Ref cables to be made of this stuff with a set of Eichmann plugs, and I know for a fact the Cryo Ref speaker cables are made of this because I took mine apart to check. They run 4x0.5mm in each direction so a 1.5m pair of cables requires 24 metres of wire (£325).
You can't post things like this... without telling us where to buy it?!
Frozen Banana sell stuff like that made up. dunno where you get bare cable though
http://www.frozen-banana.co.uk/products.asp?cat=9
http://www.liveacoustics.com.sg/upocc.htm
This guy in Singapore....
I'm surprised a 1 metre length of 0.5mm diameter wire of 7N silver can be obtained for as little as £16.
As to being cast as a single crystal, well that will be spoilt as soon as the wire is bent or wound.
When using conductors of this sort of quality, the choice of plugs and overall construction of the cable is less important. Silver solder, Neutrik RCAs and a bit of sleeve to run the two wires through will get you to the gateway of nirvana. Mr Furutech and some non magnetic silk condom-thin dielectric might make the gate a bit easier to open but most of the work is done by the conductor.
Crystalline metal is not brittle like crystalline quartz, so bending it does not change the fact that it is still a single crystal structure.
I took a pair of RCA cables round to a friend last night. They cost me £7 to make and looked beautiful. He was convinced that cables made no difference to SQ and the look on his face was priceless the second the music came on. Needless to say I didn't bring them home.
The wire used was 19/0.2 silver plated OFC teflon wrapped copper. Two runs per side in a 4 wire square braid. Cost 50p a metre from another forum. So 2 metres of wire (£1.00), 4 plugs I mentioned earlier in the thread (£5.00) plus a metre of 12mm sheath and the same of 10mm silicon hose (another £1.00).
99.99999% pure silver, continuously cast as a single crystal and deep cryo frozen afterwards, then wrapped in teflon ... 0.5mm solid wire of this type is available at £16 per metre.
Link? I doubt 7N silver is available at that price.
Actually you're right. I was offered a bit of a deal on 32m of it when I emailed them, but the 24AWG 7N cryo is $28.80/metre for a single unit on their site.
http://www.liveacoustics.com.sg/upocc.htm
Actually you're right. I was offered a bit of a deal on 32m of it when I emailed them, but the 24AWG 7N cryo is $28.80/metre for a single unit on their site.
http://www.liveacoustics.com.sg/upocc.htm
... presumably this also attracts import duty and the dreaded 'handling charge' ?
Presume what you like, but there's nothing to dread - it's only wire :)
I have never paid import duty on anything from the far east. USA is an entirely different matter.
Presume what you like, but there's nothing to dread - it's only wire :)
I have never paid import duty on anything from the far east. USA is an entirely different matter.
You're lucky - I have been stung enough times on vintage lenses from Japan and other parts in the neighbourhood (and yes, also from the States..) What it is makes no difference - usually its the value that's the tipping point. I have had plenty of low cost items (including electronics) waved through regardless of whether it's from East or West ......
Audio Advent
10-10-2015, 12:05
http://www.liveacoustics.com.sg/upocc.htm
This guy in Singapore....
Thanks for that.
The website says it is Neotech wire (a company I've only recently heard of due to some interconnects being sold as bling on ebay) and is also available via many other stockists - Hifi collective for example. Prices though are odd in that the silver/gold appears to be cheaper from the Singapore site but the copper cheaper from hifi collective (and hifi collective is often expensive in my view, based on some things e.g. XLR sockets twice the price compared to StudioSpares).
Have a look around and I think you could save yourself some import duty perhaps, although most are still overseas, especially those offering cryo treatment.
That Singapore site though is the only one I see claiming 7N - Hifi collective claims 5N on the copper, Neotech's own website says nothing I can find. The picture of the crystal structure is also from the Neotech website.
Good to hear your first hand opinion of their wire.
Audio Advent
10-10-2015, 13:43
.. and a detail, it looks like when you buy cryo-treated stuff, it is done by the seller not by Neotech so the order of manufacture you said - "cast, cryo treated then wrapped in teflon" - isn't the correct way to think of it. It's cast and made into teflon covered wire, then someone else gets it cryo treated either on the reel or in lengths. There are services in the UK who will cryo treat your cables if that saves cash (plus you can compare).
awkwardbydesign
10-10-2015, 14:15
.. and a detail, it looks like when you buy cryo-treated stuff, it is done by the seller not by Neotech so the order of manufacture you said - "cast, cryo treated then wrapped in teflon" - isn't the correct way to think of it. It's cast and made into teflon covered wire, then someone else gets it cryo treated either on the reel or in lengths. There are services in the UK who will cryo treat your cables if that saves cash (plus you can compare).
Just a question, to save me looking it up, but is it cast? I thought monocrystal or linearcrystal wire was extruded.
walpurgis
10-10-2015, 15:33
All wire is extruded.
Apart from the wire that is drawn.
awkwardbydesign
10-10-2015, 15:33
Apparently finished wire can be drawn rather than extruded. http://www.thelibraryofmanufacturing.com/metal_drawing.html
Drat. Beaten to it!
Isn't funny how bald one line statements draw a response? :D
Apart from the wire that is drawn.
Lol great reply!
Audio Advent
10-10-2015, 16:43
Just a question, to save me looking it up, but is it cast? I thought monocrystal or linearcrystal wire was extruded.
I think others need to look it up too - no-one has bothered it seems!
It is cast.
I'll save you all the 10 seconds it took for me to google and find this paper on the O.C.C. Process from the Journal of Metals (PDF): http://www.audiosensibility.com/information_links/OCC_ResearchPublication.PDF
Ahem, I guess if you already "know" then you don't need to look things up! :lol:
Sorry if I sound childishly condescending but people alreadying thinking they know stuff is how common myths are created or real science dismissed as techno-babble . Just got to have a curious and open mind..
Audio Advent
10-10-2015, 16:59
OK - it depends it seems. Looking at a few cable manufacturers, it looks like they get a cast OCC wire and then draw it to get the different guages.
It can be cast straight into the desired guage you want, just depends on what the company actually casting the wire is choosing to do - I would imagine for economic reasons they cast to the thickest guage desired and draw down to all the others.
But definately not extruded as the casting process replaces the need.
awkwardbydesign
10-10-2015, 17:16
I think others need to look it up too - no-one has bothered it seems!
It is cast.
I'll save you all the 10 seconds it took for me to google and find this paper on the O.C.C. Process from the Journal of Metals (PDF): http://www.audiosensibility.com/information_links/OCC_ResearchPublication.PDF
Ahem, I guess if you already "know" then you don't need to look things up! :lol:
Sorry if I sound childishly condescending but people alreadying thinking they know stuff is how common myths are created or real science dismissed as techno-babble . Just got to have a curious and open mind..
Well, I simply asked, to save me checking. I wasn't thinking I already knew, otherwise I wouldn't have asked. But of course the CC part is "continuous cast"! :doh:
But then I had to check anyway - "VH Audio's UniCrystal™ OCC (Ohno Continuous Cast) Copper wire with AirLok™ insulation. Our OCC wire is meticulously drawn through special dies,"
So as you say, it depends.
Audio Advent
10-10-2015, 17:57
Well, I simply asked, to save me checking. I wasn't thinking I already knew, otherwise I wouldn't have asked. But of course the CC part is "continuous cast"! :doh:
But then I had to check anyway - "VH Audio's UniCrystal™ OCC (Ohno Continuous Cast) Copper wire with AirLok™ insulation. Our OCC wire is meticulously drawn through special dies,"
So as you say, it depends.
Sorry, I didn't mean you as you were asking the initial question - I meant people answering you authoritively but actually it just being a guess extrapolated from previous knowledge about other things. No-one is ever going to learn anything new if they only extrapolate from what they thought they knew already.
I'll back-track a little - I guess drawing is not really part of the manufacture of wire. Drawing is just re-shaping a wire which has already been made as a wire - can philosophise on when an item's production process ends I guess, perhaps doesn't end until it is bent to form a wire coathanger in some cases.
I meant people answering you authoritively but actually it just being a guess extrapolated from previous knowledge about other things. Alive and well on AOS I'm afraid.
Colin Wonfor
11-10-2015, 18:13
What cable,s are going to make today?
Speaker, IC, Digital, USB or Power cord.
awkwardbydesign
11-10-2015, 20:28
What cable,s are going to make today?
Speaker, IC, Digital, USB or Power cord.
Who was it said a system should be as simple as possible, but no simpler? Or something along those lines.
Who was it said a system should be as simple as possible, but no simpler? Or something along those lines.
You did :)
awkwardbydesign
12-10-2015, 08:50
Unfortunately I can't take credit for it.
Edit. I just googled it; Einstein! So I appear to be in good company.
all things have been ordered now,just gotta wait till they arrive .
Audio Advent
20-10-2015, 15:17
What cable,s are going to make today?
Speaker, IC, Digital, USB or Power cord.
Whenever I think about making cables, I find someone had made some and are selling them already made secondhand on ebay... or at least something as cheap and of similar make-up.
Well my stuff arrived mid week so with Brian on stand by in case i buggered these up i had a go,im ok with recapping but these are more fiddly.
My first few goes yesterday were shit quite frankly and i was ready to throw the towel in,i had major grief twisting the shield and core wire small enough to solder and fit. I pm'd Brian to ask if he could make the for me.:(
Today with a fresh head i had another bash,this time i trimmed the sheild wire down and had better success,i wonder if thats what you guys do?
Here's my efforts,feel free to comment on my work and be gentle it's the first time ive made these up :)
Core and shield wire twisted,tinned and ready to solder to plug.
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj548/jamiecreig123/20151101_150640_zpsaqltcbh6.jpg
Signal wire soldered,
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj548/jamiecreig123/20151101_150936_zpsze5ahlao.jpg
Shield and core wire soldered,
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj548/jamiecreig123/20151101_151330_zpscymbmfk3.jpg
The finished pair,the masking tape is so i know the sheild to ground end for the amp.
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj548/jamiecreig123/20151101_151642_zps5cdn4bvl.jpg
Well i must have done ok because music comes out the speakers!
I've made 2 pairs up,there's not so much difference with the turntable ones as i guess the weak link is the old linn tonearm cable but i can hear a difference in the ones for the cd player so i happy.
I'd like to do the linn cable so if anyone knows where i could buy a mini 90 degree din plug id be grateful.
HiFi Collective sell the Cardas ones.
Looks like a good job Jamie... Sure youve got the burns and bleedy bits to prove your a cable man now;) personally i never make them up as they are bloody frustrating lol
Thanks grant I do indeed have the burns to prove it!
Just for clarification the ground and shield are only twisted at the amp end.is that right?
I normally do mine at the Source end.
Ah I've got them round the wrong way then.cheers.
DarrenHW
01-11-2015, 16:23
Looking good, the more you make the better you'll get! I agree with Kev, shield connected at the source for me too.
I doubt you will hear a difference. :)
brian2957
01-11-2015, 17:01
Nice job Jamie . I try to make sure that none of the wires can touch the outer casing of the plug . Some heatshrink should do that . I use the cables with the shield connected at the source end .
Give the cables some time to burn in and then have a good listen .
thanks brian,im sure no where near your standard but im pleased.
what wattage soldering iron would you recommend for this type of work,mine is 35 watt which is fine for recapping but i think a higher one would suit interconnect work better.
brian2957
01-11-2015, 17:33
I use this Jamie http://www.amazon.co.uk/Antex-Xs25w-Soldering-Silicone-Cable/dp/B005ZEM7YI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446399093&sr=8-1&keywords=antex+soldering+iron . You might have to buy a 1mm tip for fine work though . Tips available from Ebay , Amazon , and Maplins .
35w is more than sufficient for soldering up interconnects - 25w is quite adequate. However, if you hold the metal of the RCA plug in something metallic (like a vice) it will conduct the heat away and make the whole procedure a lot more difficult. I recommend a piece of wood with a hole in it of the right size that the centre pin will push into it and hold - or use a scrap of cardboard between the plug and the vice jaws.
------
DSJR, who knows regarding your interconnect 'feelings'. However, not long ago I experimented with the high and low capacitance version of an interconnect Van Damme make and found it makes no difference in one metre lengths unless the capacitance is contrived to be oddly high somehow.
awkwardbydesign
01-11-2015, 17:58
I've only just noticed the pictures and later posts. If I could make a couple of suggestions, based on my own mistakes and failures, I now insert any RCA plug I solder into a loose socket and hold that in the clip's jaws. https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRgtoMf94zFnsmEaLb-wkm2b5emcjAwVo-9e5AwKARNYVzBi0bSQ That way if the plastic on the plug softens, the pin stays central when it cools. Also try to ensure that the wire is touching the plug's metal; the solder should just be holding it in place, not bridging a gap. And the clip jaws can leave marks on the insulation it they are too strong; something between them will stop that happening.
With these MS plugs, I don't think it matters if the negative wires touch the barrel, as it isn't connected to the negative pin, unlike most metal bodied plugs. And if you are connecting the screen, then it might even provide more coverage.
These are now my default plugs, unless I need the locking type.
thank you all for the advice and tips, richard funny enough ive just been reading your tip in another thread :)
A bit of heat shrink over a pair of the jaws of the clips helps to avoid marking the plugs.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bessey-Bv-Nvj-Multi-Purpose-Vise-Jaws/dp/B0057PUEZO
http://www.homedepot.com/p/BESSEY-Non-Marring-Vise-Jaw-Accessory-for-Use-on-Vises-with-Jaws-from-3-in-to-6-in-Wide-BV-NVJ/204986223
...or you can make them your self out of wood... first thing I made in metalwork and wood work at school actually ali ones and wood ones
Those are dear, but it gives you the idea. you can make them in wood for your needs with drilled gaps for plugs etc and at angles etc
walpurgis
01-11-2015, 18:54
Just get a strip of aluminium angle from B&Q and cut two pieces off. Aluminium is soft enough not to harm most surfaces.
Or one of these to hold the RCA plug in http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wolfcraft-1%C2%A0microfix-Suction-Cup-3638000/dp/B001W7JX3K/ref=sr_1_77?ie=UTF8&qid=1446404209&sr=8-77&keywords=wolfcraft+clamp
awkwardbydesign
01-11-2015, 22:17
God, we're a bunch of nerds! :rfl:
God, we're a bunch of nerds! :rfl:
speak for yourself;)
brian2957
01-11-2015, 22:22
I'm the same :D
Audio Advent
02-11-2015, 00:56
It is darned tricky solding cables - the cable and wires move so much under their own weight and stiffness that it can be hit and miss without getting a good technique and equipment sorted out.
I wonder if you can use a spot welder to make cables.
It is darned tricky solding cables - the cable and wires move so much under their own weight and stiffness that it can be hit and miss without getting a good technique and equipment sorted out.
I wonder if you can use a spot welder to make cables.
http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb300/20080612/Welding-Fire-767119.jpg
That is arc welding. :ner:
awkwardbydesign
02-11-2015, 09:50
That is arc welding. :ner:
See what I mean? :doh:
brian2957
02-11-2015, 09:54
I tried that but the wife wouldn't let me play with an arc welder in the house :lol:
I love tge smell of fish in the morning
brian2957
02-11-2015, 10:10
I love tge smell of fish in the morning
:scratch:
Welding excessively especially if using anti spatter spray smells like fish
brian2957
02-11-2015, 10:21
Ah right ! Never thought of that . I think she was more worried about me setting the hoose on fire :lol:
Ah right ! Never thought of that . I think she was more worried about me setting the hoose on fire :lol:
Yes its a distinct possibility....
I actually do like the smell and taste of fish in the morning... Just had my bit. Best breakfast you can have
brian2957
02-11-2015, 10:53
Toast for me I'm afraid :rolleyes:
That is arc welding. :ner:
Only on Mondays, rest of the week he's a Spot Welder...
Yes its a distinct possibility....
I actually do like the smell and taste of fish in the morning... Just had my bit. Best breakfast you can have
uhm...
Welding excessively especially if using anti spatter spray smells like fish
grant i dont know what kinda welding wire you use but i weld for a living and not once have i thought hmmm smells like fish! lol
Lol... Mine did. Think it was the varnish coating on the arc tx. Used to stink... Of course the cat may have contributed to that...little tiddles was her name. I once twisted a landrover chassis with it....i got carried away with myself...ruined the land rover but the welder survived but did smell
And here I was thinking that there were only two things that smelt of fish. Oh well, you live and learn - there are now three things that smell of fish!
4,dont forget fish smell of fish!
brian2957
02-11-2015, 18:11
It's probably just his mermaid costume which he brings out every Haloween :lol:
Wakefield Turntables
02-11-2015, 19:44
Just jumped on the band wagon and ordered my Klotz MC500 cable and two sets of MS-Audio RCA's. :)
brian2957
02-11-2015, 19:46
Nice combination of plugs and cable Andrew :)
cyclopse
02-11-2015, 19:57
Just jumped on the band wagon and ordered my Klotz MC500 cable and two sets of MS-Audio RCA's. :)
We have been running them for months. :eyebrows:
By the way not a substitute for Yannis 223.5.
Wakefield Turntables
02-11-2015, 20:15
Nice combination of plugs and cable Andrew :)
We have been running them for months. :eyebrows:
By the way not a substitute for Yannis 223.5.
Yeah, I know, I'm late. I'm a little bored and fancied a chineese lash up system. I've gone and bought a little bear valve preamp and phonostage from Little bear so I'm in the process of putting a system together to have some fun with over the long winter nights. I intend getting a thread together at some stage.
HI,
has anyone used Klotz MY206 ? I made two short pairs (50cm) and am very happy with the result. I bought a drum of it from Germany to build some very long XLR runs and had some left over so I gave it a try.. Plugs used are the cheap but soliid Neutriks.
I use Klotz ac110 for my ICs
Wakefield Turntables
04-11-2015, 16:27
The mc5000 arrived today now just waiting for the ms audio RCA. Quite looking for to see what all the fuss has been about:D
brian2957
04-11-2015, 16:30
Andrew , the last set of plugs I ordered took 22 days to get here IIRC :rolleyes:
Brian are mine the ms plugs and the 110 cable? I keep meaning to write it down(sorry for drift)
brian2957
04-11-2015, 16:35
No Grant , they're the KLE plugs mate .http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KL-EICHMANN-COPPER-HARMONY-SILVER-PLATED-TELLURIUM-RCA-PLUGS-BY-KLE-INNOVATIONS-/181417646960?hash=item2a3d559b70:g:VXUAAMXQ1ZhTfHS 6
Wakefield Turntables
04-11-2015, 20:39
Andrew , the last set of plugs I ordered took 22 days to get here IIRC :rolleyes:
Well they have been posted and I have a tracking number. I've been too idle to see where they are. I don't mind waiting. I have a new cheapo phonostage and preamp to play with alongside some new speakers. ;)
337alant
05-11-2015, 09:33
No Grant , they're the KLE plugs mate .http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KL-EICHMANN-COPPER-HARMONY-SILVER-PLATED-TELLURIUM-RCA-PLUGS-BY-KLE-INNOVATIONS-/181417646960?hash=item2a3d559b70:g:VXUAAMXQ1ZhTfHS 6
Brian
Are the KLE plugs worth the extra cash?.
Alan
Do plugs make a difference?
In my experience, it is very subtle if they do.
I have a set of the KLE plugs fitted to the MC5000 cable and there is very little difference between this set and a set with a MS Audio plugs fitted. The KLE are easier to solder and they have a better cable clamp (2 grub screws instead of 1). Yhat is about it in my experience.
Some people with extremely revealing systems may think differently.
brian2957
05-11-2015, 10:21
Brian
Are the KLE plugs worth the extra cash?.
Alan
Hi Alan , IMHO no . In fact the MS Audio plugs are better in some areas ( again IMO ) :)
I find the MS Audio plugs very easy to work with and easy to clamp when I use heatshrink in the correct areas .
Hi, and sorry if this has been covered here but where can one purchase MS Audio plugs ?
Thank's
ru
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MS-Audio-Star-Line-Rhodium-Plated-Tellurium-Copper-RCA-Plugs-2-Pair-/321913060295?hash=item4af3837bc7:g:XAUAAOSwiCRUazY G
brian2957
10-11-2015, 23:34
Here ya go Rupert http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4712.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xms+audio+sta r+line.TRS0&_nkw=ms+audio+star+line&_sacat=0
thank's
Grant pulled first :eek:
brian2957
10-11-2015, 23:47
Aye , but my link shows all the variations of these plugs Rupert :ner:
ah, ok.. by variations do you mean the case material ?
I noticed they have some odd features like for instance the single ground point or the little screw to clamp the cable .. but interesting. I'll get meself a set ;)
Aye , but my link shows all the variations of these plugs Rupert :ner:
sorry guvnr. thought you were busy with that pink dress;)
brian2957
11-11-2015, 04:40
sorry guvnr. thought you were busy with that pink dress;)
Aye I was looking at the different variants of that too . Perhaps you can help me pick out a hat to match , or one of yours might do Grant :eyebrows:
Wakefield Turntables
13-11-2015, 17:35
Just made up a quick 0.5m pair of IC's with the Klotz MC5000 & MS Audio RCA's. Very surprised at the outcome. Not as good as my Yannis IC's but not far off. I've got them plumbed in bewteen my paradise phonostage and Croft Micro Basic. Herbie Hancock sounds great through the big Tannoys. I'll probably make another pair for between pre and power amp. I don't believe in cable "burn-in", more the psychoaudiological effects of the process of swapping cables. I'll probably leave these in now for a week or two and then move them over to the lash up system.
Bigman80
03-01-2016, 22:07
Well I've been keeping quiet up till now but this talk of eddy current in connectors is bollocks......
:)
lol quality
Sorry for the "old thread" resurrection but I want to make a couple of interconnects and picked up some Klotz MC5000. I was expecting it to have one centre conductor and the shield but find it has two. Do I use red and blue as "hot" and "ground" and ignore the shield or combine the red and blue as "hot" and use the shield as "ground"?
walpurgis
09-07-2021, 08:48
The MC5000 is a microphone cable, but is well regarded for use as an audio interconnect. I personally would use the red and blue and either leave the screen unconnected or connected to the blue neg at whichever end you think appropriate, I don't think it matters, but some have other thoughts.
WullieD20
09-07-2021, 15:58
The MC5000 is a microphone cable, but is well regarded for use as an audio interconnect. I personally would use the red and blue and either leave the screen unconnected or connected to the blue neg at whichever end you think appropriate, I don't think it matters, but some have other thoughts.
I agree with Geoff. The MC5000 looks to be very similar to the Van Damme microphone cable that I frequently use (twin core + shield).
Search "pseudo balanced interconnect" and you can see the alternative methods of connection.
brian2957
09-07-2021, 17:16
I always connect the shield to the earth at the source end. It sounds better IMO :)
I've used MC5000 cable, but only for balanced interconnects.
I see, and hear, no advantage of so-called semi-balanced cables over coaxial designs. But if you do want to make them, the shield is connected to the outer part of the phono connector at one end only: that of the source.
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