View Full Version : High end cartridges.
Floyddroid
05-10-2015, 05:28
High end cartridges. are they worth the bother? I have heard so many of them that seem wanting to me? Are they really as good as their price would suggest they should? Or do they as so many items do fall into the male jewellery category? And just what makes a high end cartridge high end? At what price tag do they start?:scratch:
I am wondering because recently i have been using cheaper and in some cases older cartridges than my £1200 MC.
Rather than bang on about value for money, which is after all a personal judgment based on personal financial circumstances, I would have thought a 'high end' product would be that manufacturer's attempt to create the best they can ... their 'state of the art'. In most cases, their cheap cartridges are compromised, if not 'hobbled', in comparison.
I wish my Io1 was almost as good as the Io Ltd, but it isn't ... it's nowhere near tbh.
I wish my SPU GE was almost as good as the SPU A95, but it isn't ... it's nowhere near tbh
I wish my AT440MLb was almost as good as any of my other cartridges, but it isn't ....
Wakefield Turntables
05-10-2015, 07:37
I would have thought a 'high end' product would be that manufacturer's attempt to create the best they can ...
Unless you own a Volkswagen.
Audio Al
05-10-2015, 08:20
Unless you own a Volkswagen.
Do VW make cartridges :scratch:
The bits inside cartridges don't cost a fortune, but the selection of these parts might, as well as the ever-open pension pots of the manufacturers. While there are a few people out there willing to spend thousands on a pickup cartridge, there will be other people happy to take their money and live well on the proceeds :(
walpurgis
05-10-2015, 08:55
Very happy with my carts. Vintage and new.
Wakefield Turntables
05-10-2015, 09:25
I have several high end carts and live them, I also have several low end carts, love these as well. Horses for courses really.
I have a lot of sympathy with the point Steve is making, but will comment more later.
I wish my SPU GE was almost as good as the SPU A95, but it isn't ... it's nowhere near tbh
Well, to my ears, an SPU A95 is not all-round better than my vintage SPU-G/T, and nor was the (considerably more expensive) Royal GM MKII I sold it for. There are definitely areas where the older SPUs excel over their modern counterparts, and I can go into that if you want :)
The reality is that there are compromises with cartridges, just as there are with everything else in hi-fi, so there is no 'universally best' anything. It's certainly no guarantee that if you spend more, you get better.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
05-10-2015, 10:55
Many specialist carts are hand built - one maker brands - produced in small quantities and at times using exotic materials, they are works of art as well as functional and thus carry a high price, just as some brands of watches do. Are some of them worth £10,000 ? I don't know but certainly many of the £1500 + carts I have heard and a few I own are in my opinion worth their asking price.
There are more mass produced carts both coil and mm out there that cost what they cost. Value is in the eye of the beholder, their means, desires and how passionate serious they are about an interest, these factors guide what they spend or don't.
Thing is the amount of time and effort required to get any of these carts to show their full potential is down to all the other equipment being right, from turntable, to arm and phono stage.
The type of stylus profile might require less fiddly set up (concial), or if its a line type serious fiddling and quality alignment tools to get right. It sounds to me like your system isn't working properly with the MC cart you have, so you are judging it in less than ideal circumstances - circumstances that are more favourable to your other carts that just happen to be less expensive. In this case cost has nothing to do with it, its simply less than optiomal synergy or set up not letting the MC show what it can do.
Regards Neil
Wakefield Turntables
05-10-2015, 11:08
High end cartridges. are they worth the bother? I have heard so many of them that seem wanting to me? Are they really as good as their price would suggest they should? Or do they as so many items do fall into the male jewellery category? And just what makes a high end cartridge high end? At what price tag do they start?:scratch:
I am wondering because recently i have been using cheaper and in some cases older cartridges than my £1200 MC.
Steve, what cart are you running?
Many specialist carts are hand built - one maker brands - produced in small quantities and at times using exotic materials, they are works of art as well as functional and thus carry a high price, just as some brands of watches do. Are some of them worth £10,000 ? I don't know but certainly many of the £1500 + carts I have heard and a few I own are in my opinion worth their asking price.
There are more mass produced carts both coil and mm out there that cost what they cost. Value is in the eye of the beholder, their means, desires and how passionate serious they are about an interest, these factors guide what they spend or don't.
Thing is the amount of time and effort required to get any of these carts to show their full potential is down to all the other equipment being right, from turntable, to arm and phono stage.
The type of stylus profile might require less fiddly set up (concial), or if its a line type serious fiddling and quality alignment tools to get right. It sounds to me like your system isn't working properly with the MC cart you have, so you are judging it in less than ideal circumstances - circumstances that are more favourable to your other carts that just happen to be less expensive. In this case cost has nothing to do with it, its simply less than optiomal synergy or set up not letting the MC show what it can do.
Regards Neil
Good post Neil,
Though I do think that the likes of Koetsu and Ortofon are milking the high-end market with their endless range of stone-bodied cartridges and versions of the SPU respectively.
I don't think there is any need to pay more than £1,500 for a cartridge.
anubisgrau
05-10-2015, 12:20
I've heard some nice results from serviced and tweaked vintage models known for imperfect but promising sound, such as 103, Koetsu Black or Ortofon SL15. Almost there with mega-$$$$ names, just a fraction of the cost. However as always there's a risk involved. Not every service turns great but some of the workshops seem to be more successful...
Spectral Morn
05-10-2015, 12:56
Good post Neil,
Though I do think that the likes of Koetsu and Ortofon are milking the high-end market with their endless range of stone-bodied cartridges and versions of the SPU respectively.
I don't think there is any need to pay more than £1,500 for a cartridge.
Having heard an Air Tight PC3 not long ago, I was stunned at how good it was, which did open my mind up to much dearer carts being worth the extra, by offering more - most expensive cart I have heard in my own system to date, about £4000 ish.
Regards Neil
Neil undoubtedly makes some valid points.
The other thing worth noting is that when listening to recorded music, reproduced by a turntable, you're not just listening to the cartridge, but the cumulative effects of a number of electrical and mechanical interactions, the former in terms of the relationship between the cartridge, phonostage and preamplifier, and the latter throughout the whole function of the turntable - and achieving genuine synergy, in that respect, as well as optimal set-up, is as fundamentally important to what you hear, as the sonic prowess of the cartridge itself.
Therefore, you can bet your boots that an optimally set-up, high-quality £500 cartridge, which is sympathetically matched to the partnering T/T, tonearm and phonostage, is always going to sound better than any £4000 cartridge, sub-optimally set up, and/or that isn't similarly sympathetically matched to the rest of the system.
I've been to so many shows and bake-offs where very expensive cartridges have sounded shit (certainly compared with what I'm used to), because the owner has either been too lazy to set them up properly, or simply doesn't really know what he or she is doing - either that or they're deaf! :rolleyes:
The fact is, setting up a turntable, tonearm and cartridge, to ensure that all perform to their full potential, is a skill - and it requires fastidious, in truth, anal levels of attention to detail (especially where fine-line styli are concerned), as well as experience and bags of patience, in order to achieve the above. And very few T/Ts I hear succeed in fulfilling their full potential, largely because of user apathy/laziness, or their owners simply not having the 'ears' to know the difference between what sounds right and what doesn't.
Therefore, chucking money at cartridges (or anything else for that matter in audio) will never be the answer unless you *know* what you're doing and how to get the absolute most from your expensive investment. If not, you're just throwing money down the drain - and the only person laughing, at the end of the day, will be one who's relieved you of your hard-earned cash.... ;)
Marco.
I'd go one further and say that so many exalted cartridges of years past (maybe not so much now?) tended to refine the life and soul out of the record. Maybe the turntables and tonearms added to this too, but you get my drift. I do remember a Kiseki Lapis Lazuli (then two grand in cost) sounding absolutely stunning in comparison with the cheaper Purpleheart Saphire, itself a good sound as I recall, but then my Decca Gold Microscanner in the Mentor came closest to source tape that I'd then heard.
As said above, horses for courses and each to their own.. I had a great session this weekend with an SPU GT-E (I think it is) in a PL71. Still slightly 'restrained' for my tastes, BUT, the sense of absolute stability of reproduction and rock solid bass with no soggy qualities began to win me over :) Yet I can also enjoy the sonics from an AT91/Rega Carbon, which does so much right and masks so well what it cannot do (I suppose the Goldring G800 with good 'needle' would be the same, but it's some time since I used mine - the G800E tips the precarious balance for me sadly, despite being 'better')
Spectral Morn
05-10-2015, 14:56
Neil undoubtedly makes some valid points.
The other thing worth noting is that when listening to recorded music, reproduced on a turntable, you're not just listening to the cartridge, but the cumulative effects of a number of electrical and mechanical interactions, the former in terms of the relationship between the cartridge, phonostage and preamplifier, and the latter throughout the whole function of the turntable - and achieving genuine synergy, in that respect, as well as optimal set-up, is as fundamentally important to what you hear, as the inherent sonic prowess of the cartridge itself.
Therefore, you can bet your boots that an optimally set-up, high-quality £500 cartridge, which is sympathetically matched to the partnering T/T, tonearm and phonostage, is always going to sound better than any £4000 cartridge, sub-optimally set up, and/or that isn't similarly sympathetically matched to the rest of the system.
I've been to so many shows and bake-offs where very expensive cartridges have sounded shit (certainly compared with what I'm used to), because the owner has either been too lazy to set them up properly, or simply doesn't really know what he or she is doing - either that or they're deaf! :rolleyes:
The fact is, setting up a turntable, tonearm and cartridge, to ensure that all perform to their full potential, is a skill - and it requires fastidious, in truth, anal levels of attention to detail (especially where fine-line styli are concerned), as well as experience and bags of patience, in order to achieve the above. And very few T/Ts I hear succeed in fulfilling their full potential, largely because of user apathy/laziness, or their owners simply not having the 'ears' to know the difference between what sounds right and what doesn't.
Therefore, chucking money at cartridges (or anything else for that matter in audio) will never be the answer unless you *know* what you're doing and how to get the absolute most from your expensive investment. If not, you're just throwing money down the drain - and the only person laughing, at the end of the day, will be one who's relieved you of your hard-earned cash.... ;)
Marco.
Agreed
Regards Neil
I'd go one further and say that so many exalted cartridges of years past (maybe not so much now?) tended to refine the life and soul out of the record. Maybe the turntables and tonearms added to this too, but you get my drift. I do remember a Kiseki Lapis Lazuli (then two grand in cost) sounding absolutely stunning in comparison with the cheaper Purpleheart Saphire, itself a good sound as I recall, but then my Decca Gold Microscanner in the Mentor came closest to source tape that I'd then heard.
As said above, horses for courses and each to their own.. I had a great session this weekend with an SPU GT-E (I think it is) in a PL71. Still slightly 'restrained' for my tastes, BUT, the sense of absolute stability of reproduction and rock solid bass with no soggy qualities began to win me over :) Yet I can also enjoy the sonics from an AT91/Rega Carbon, which does so much right and masks so well what it cannot do (I suppose the Goldring G800 with good 'needle' would be the same, but it's some time since I used mine - the G800E tips the precarious balance for me sadly, despite being 'better')
Since there is no provision to adjust overhang either at the cartridge end, or at the arm base, how do you ensure the arm/cartridge geometry is correct?
To return to to the subject of expensive (> £2,000) cartridges, there are only two that really interest me: a Koetsu 'Rosewood Signature', and the Decca (London) 'Reference'. Oh, and maybe an Ortofon A95.
However there are several, sub £500, vintage cartridges that I am interested in hearing.
Spectral Morn
05-10-2015, 14:59
I'd go one further and say that so many exalted cartridges of years past (maybe not so much now?) tended to refine the life and soul out of the record. Maybe the turntables and tonearms added to this too, but you get my drift. I do remember a Kiseki Lapis Lazuli (then two grand in cost) sounding absolutely stunning in comparison with the cheaper Purpleheart Saphire, itself a good sound as I recall, but then my Decca Gold Microscanner in the Mentor came closest to source tape that I'd then heard.
As said above, horses for courses and each to their own.. I had a great session this weekend with an SPU GT-E (I think it is) in a PL71. Still slightly 'restrained' for my tastes, BUT, the sense of absolute stability of reproduction and rock solid bass with no soggy qualities began to win me over :) Yet I can also enjoy the sonics from an AT91/Rega Carbon, which does so much right and masks so well what it cannot do (I suppose the Goldring G800 with good 'needle' would be the same, but it's some time since I used mine - the G800E tips the precarious balance for me sadly, despite being 'better')
Fabulous cart, set one up, once many years ago on a PT Anniversary, SME4 set up for a customer. most expensive cart I had installed at that time - scary. It sounded lovely, as did the Purpleheart Saphire. Also back then the Goldbug Brier carts were wonderful - wish I had got one :(
Regards Neil
High end cartridges. are they worth the bother? I have heard so many of them that seem wanting to me? Are they really as good as their price would suggest they should? Or do they as so many items do fall into the male jewellery category? And just what makes a high end cartridge high end? At what price tag do they start?:scratch:
I am wondering because recently i have been using cheaper and in some cases older cartridges than my £1200 MC.
Sometimes Steve l enjoy listening to my Stanton 500 on my lightly mode Techie- a very romantic sound that is nice to listen to- then l put my Cadenza Black loaded front end and...... it sounds amazing, my point is you do have to spend loads to get a sound you like.:)
Floyddroid
05-10-2015, 17:01
Some great points here. All very interesting. I myself have become slightly disillusioned with the high end cartridge debacle. I am presently using a metal bodied 103 whch to be very honest sounds little better than my stock 103 currently aboard my Michell Orbe SE. In fact i will probably sell it on. I have a Lyra Delos sadly now defunked due to me gross mishandling which i replaced with an Audio Technica OC9 MLIII. The OC9 pissed all over the Delos in just about every way. At the moment i have an Ortofon 2B blue in my Techie and i think that is a cartridge to be reckoned with. very underated and in the shadow of it's more expensive alternative the 2M black. The black is a great cartridge but i don't fully appreciate it's subtlties preferring instead the balls to the wall presentation of my 2M Blue. I had until recently been using a Dynavector X22 MkIII. I sold that because i was annoyed with myself for spending that much money on it when the cartridges i had were in my view better. This makes me guilty as hell for buying something because of it's perceived value and Kudos. Like a complete tit i got rid of the OC9 too which is something i keep returning to. As sure as eggs is eggs i have no doubt i will have another one. There is a lot of wisdom within this thread from some informed audiophiles and i have to agree with the gentleman who said you should stick with what ever is right for you and what your hearing, finances and personal musical choices are.So, if there is anyone out there want to do a PX with my metal body DL103 for an OC9, let's talk.
Since there is no provision to adjust overhang either at the cartridge end, or at the arm base, how do you ensure the arm/cartridge geometry is correct?
A good question, but I'm in the same boat with my SPU and Ortofon arm. It just happens to be spot on, simply by ensuring that the pivot to spindle distance is correct on the armboard. It could've easily worked out differently, though!
However, I suspect that most detachable-headshell Japanese arms, working well with SPUs, is not simply a 'happy accident' ;)
Marco.
Steve, l had a DL103 on my Gyro/SME V and quite honestly l could have lived with it forever- it was insanely musical!
it is all relative.:)
As said above, horses for courses and each to their own.. I had a great session this weekend with an SPU GT-E (I think it is) in a PL71. Still slightly 'restrained' for my tastes, BUT, the sense of absolute stability of reproduction and rock solid bass with no soggy qualities began to win me over :)
Welcome to my world! :eyebrows: And, IME, only the best vintage SPUs can do that!
I don't get the "restrained" thing, though. That's certainly not the case here (the complete opposite), unless you mean a lack of emphasised and 'spotlit' treble, imbued in the presentation of modern MC cartridges, by today's manufacturers, in order to give the false impression of 'detail'? ;)
Marco.
Returning to the subject of 'high-end' cartridges, in all honesty, I'd gladly put my Denon DL-S1 (Denon's top moving coil, at £500) up against any £4k cartridge you can think of!
Steve, you heard it on my T/T at the last NEBO, so I think you can relate to where I'm coming from ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
05-10-2015, 17:49
Some great points here. All very interesting. I myself have become slightly disillusioned with the high end cartridge debacle. I am presently using a metal bodied 103 whch to be very honest sounds little better than my stock 103 currently aboard my Michell Orbe SE. In fact i will probably sell it on. I have a Lyra Delos sadly now defunked due to me gross mishandling which i replaced with an Audio Technica OC9 MLIII. The OC9 pissed all over the Delos in just about every way. At the moment i have an Ortofon 2B blue in my Techie and i think that is a cartridge to be reckoned with. very underated and in the shadow of it's more expensive alternative the 2M black. The black is a great cartridge but i don't fully appreciate it's subtlties preferring instead the balls to the wall presentation of my 2M Blue. I had until recently been using a Dynavector X22 MkIII. I sold that because i was annoyed with myself for spending that much money on it when the cartridges i had were in my view better. This makes me guilty as hell for buying something because of it's perceived value and Kudos. Like a complete tit i got rid of the OC9 too which is something i keep returning to. As sure as eggs is eggs i have no doubt i will have another one. There is a lot of wisdom within this thread from some informed audiophiles and i have to agree with the gentleman who said you should stick with what ever is right for you and what your hearing, finances and personal musical choices are.So, if there is anyone out there want to do a PX with my metal body DL103 for an OC9, let's talk.
Lyra's work best in my experience feed via a step up into an mm stage. Best sound I ever had with my Lyra Clavis was got this way, valve phono stage.
There is with all due respect no debacle, except mismatching, in my opinion. It is an unfortunate set of circumstances that few have the experience of years gone by and that retailers no longer - mostly - can or wish to demonstrate carts.
Its hard, and buying stuff blind often leads to mismatching, if not technically then possibly tonally.
Regards Neil
A good question, but I'm in the same boat with my SPU and Ortofon arm. It just happens to be spot on, simply by ensuring that the pivot to spindle distance is correct on the armboard. It could've easily worked out differently, though!
However, I suspect that most detachable-headshell Japanese arms, working well with SPUs, is not simply a 'happy accident' ;)
Marco.
But your arm is made for Ortofon by Jelco, so I assume Ortofon ensured the arm would work correctly with the integral headshell SPU cartridges. :)
Welcome to my world! :eyebrows: And, IME, only the best vintage SPUs can do that!
I don't get the "restrained" thing, though. That's certainly not the case here (the complete opposite), unless you mean a lack of emphasised and 'spotlit' treble, imbued in the presentation of modern MC cartridges, by today's manufacturers, in order to give the false impression of 'detail'? ;)
Marco.
Mmmm interesting your observations on modern MC cartridges. From the few I have heard they are detail driven and I certainly would not like a 'spotlit treble'!
I have another post going trying to acertain a replacement for the 2M Black and have had a good amount of suggestions. I don't particularly want another MM and would consider a MC but I want something with a rich musical presentation not in your face attack and detail.
I was very impressed with your DL-S1 at Nebo5 but I could live with something a little more restrained than this.
But your arm is made for Ortofon by Jelco, so I assume Ortofon ensured the arm would work correctly with the integral headshell SPU cartridges. :)
Yes, but don't make the mistake of presuming that the arm on a PL-71 isn't just as compatible, although perhaps somewhat fortuitously! ;)
Marco.
Hi Jim,
Mmmm interesting your observations on modern MC cartridges. From the few I have heard they are detail driven and I certainly would not like a 'spotlit treble'!
I have another post going trying to acertain a replacement for the 2M Black and have had a good amount of suggestions. I don't particularly want another MM and would consider a MC but I want something with a rich musical presentation not in your face attack and detail.
MC cartridges appear to be 'voiced' rather differently by manufacturers today than they once were, which in my opinion. is due to the modern trend for hi-fi equipment in general (and speakers) to sound forced and 'falsely exaggerated'. Quite simply, music is not meant to sound like that.
Essentially, cartridge manufacturers today are catering for market demand, as folk have been brainwashed into believing that this 'spotlit'/forced sound is correct and conveys accuracy, when often the opposite is true.
I was very impressed with your DL-S1 at Nebo5 but I could live with something a little more restrained than this.
You could go with a DL-103, but would need to make some modifications to the headshell on your VPI, by adding more mass. Another option would be to try a top-notch MM design, such as a Nagaoka MP500, which is capable of trouncing most MCs in the musicality stakes, as well as ably ticking all the correct 'hi-fi boxes'. Trust me, you'd love it! :)
Marco.
P.S Did you get my reply to your PM about restaurants in Chester?
Hi Jim,
MC cartridges appear to be 'voiced' rather differently by manufacturers today, than they once were, which IMO is due to the modern trend for hi-fi equipment in general (and speakers) to sound forced and 'falsely exaggerated'. Quite simply, music is not meant to sound like that.
Essentially, cartridge manufacturers are simply catering for market demand, as folk have been brainwashed into thinking that such a 'spotlit' sound is correct and conveys accuracy, when often the opposite is true.
You could go with a DL-103, but would need to make some modifications to the headshell on your VPI, by adding more mass. Another option would be to try a top-notch MM design, such as a Nagaoka MP500, which is capable of trouncing most MCs in the musicality stakes, as well as ably ticking all the correct 'hi-fi boxes'. Trust me, you'd love it! :)
Marco.
P.S Did you get my reply to your PM about restaurants in Chester?
Thanks Marco, I did, just sent you PM.
Very timely article as I spent the weekend listening to my Shure M7 and Pickering XV 15 cartridges and they sounded surprisingly good very musical etc, but switching back to my usual SPU GM E with Hashimoto SUT just completely blew the previous listening experience into next week.
In some ways I was reassured that the relatively high price paid was worth every penny
Yes, but you've simply traded one set of musical sounding cartridges for another cartridge, which was even better designed to sound musical in the first place, so what did you expect? ;)
Marco.
Yes, but don't make the mistake of presuming that the arm on a PL-71 isn't just as compatible, although perhaps somewhat fortuitously! ;)
Marco.
I think that might be true. However I'm sure somewhere in the past I have seen enough information about the arm and cartridge to show, when the information was entered into the calculator on the vinylengine site, that the performance was less than optimum. In fact there was only one true null point where the distortion was zero; the second 'null point' was a minimum, finite but not zero. Probably all inaudable anyway. :rolleyes:
Clive197
06-10-2015, 09:26
My last 5 cartridge steps have each had a cost step-up and an increase in SQ every time. They have all been worth it to me.
What is a high end cartridge though? I've been lucky to have been given an unused for years Linn Asaka, and bought a DV Ruby Karat as part of a cheap package buy. Both sound stunning to my ears, compared to my known quantities of DL-110 homc & Roksan Corus Blue mm (also gifted :))
Well I've said it before on here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40262-Northwest-Analogue-DL103-first-impressions) IMO/E best bang for your buck is to buy a DL-103 (R) second hand preferably with no cantilever so it's cheap and send it to Dom at NWA for a rebuild (choose your poison).
My NWA DL-103 all told cost me the thick end of £1500 with the malachite body and it is without a doubt the finest sounding cartridge I have ever heard and no it doesn't have a stylus guard ;)
Steve
Big Vern
09-10-2015, 16:53
Well I've said it before on here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40262-Northwest-Analogue-DL103-first-impressions) IMO/E best bang for your buck is to buy a DL-103 (R) second hand preferably with no cantilever so it's cheap and send it to Dom at NWA for a rebuild (choose your poison).
My NWA DL-103 all told cost me the thick end of £1500 with the malachite body and it is without a doubt the finest sounding cartridge I have ever heard and no it doesn't have a stylus guard
Steve
Steve... stop it... I have jealousy issues! ;)
anubisgrau
09-10-2015, 17:09
Well I've said it before on here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40262-Northwest-Analogue-DL103-first-impressions) IMO/E best bang for your buck is to buy a DL-103 (R) second hand preferably with no cantilever so it's cheap and send it to Dom at NWA for a rebuild (choose your poison).
My NWA DL-103 all told cost me the thick end of £1500 with the malachite body and it is without a doubt the finest sounding cartridge I have ever heard and no it doesn't have a stylus guard ;)
Steve
wtf £1500?
Well I've said it before on here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40262-Northwest-Analogue-DL103-first-impressions) IMO/E best bang for your buck is to buy a DL-103 (R) second hand preferably with no cantilever so it's cheap and send it to Dom at NWA for a rebuild (choose your poison).
My NWA DL-103 all told cost me the thick end of £1500 with the malachite body and it is without a doubt the finest sounding cartridge I have ever heard and no it doesn't have a stylus guard
Steve
Steve... stop it... I have jealousy issues! ;)
What he said- this is not the first time l heard this about a tricked DL03- if you want musicality a basic DL103 is maybe all you need..........:popcorn:
wtf £1500?
Don't knock it unless you've tried it M8
:exactly:
sq225917
09-10-2015, 19:20
Ffs you could have bought a second hand Benz lp for less.
:hmm: True - but it would still be second hand and not a bespoke hand crafted thing of aural and visual beauty
Just my opinion of course
Indeed. Don't listen to them, Stephen. It's nice having something bespoke and rather special, so I applaud your lateral thinking. Shun the (boring) obvious choices and do something different. It's an approach we champion on AoS! :thumbsup:
Marco.
Indeed. Don't listen to them, Stephen. It's nice having something bespoke and rather special, so I applaud your lateral thinking. Shun the (boring) obvious choices and do something different. It's an approach we champion on AoS! :thumbsup:
Marco.
:exactly:
I've sent my Jelco 750D off to J7 at AO for a rewire and overhaul so should be even better when it comes back. It's already benefited from the use of an isokinetik silver melody heavy counterweight :cool:
Steve
You mean, you use a £1500 hand crafted bespoke penile extension of a cartridge (:lol: :mrgreen: :respect:) with that tatty old Jelco tonearm that's so common 'everyone' uses one??????? Come on, you MUST trawl through the ads and get yourself an FR 64S and get Johnnie to do the wiring and stuff the pipe in that, surely???
Talk about bindings on your wheel - you're positively strapped to it from head to toe :lol:
All supposed to be in jest - no offence intended :)
RobbieGong
14-10-2015, 17:34
Never heard a 103 in any guise but I can imagine this one does sound fab regardless of £1500. I've never heard an Ortofon Cadenza Black but plenty have sold at £1750 which I'd have paid if i had it. (can be had a bit cheaper now). Now £895 for a pair of interconnects which i saw mentioned somewhere here - never.
You mean, you use a £1500 hand crafted bespoke penile extension of a cartridge (:lol: :mrgreen: :respect:) with that tatty old Jelco tonearm that's so common 'everyone' uses one??????? Come on, you MUST trawl through the ads and get yourself an FR 64S and get Johnnie to do the wiring and stuff the pipe in that, surely???
Talk about bindings on your wheel - you're positively strapped to it from head to toe :lol:
All supposed to be in jest - no offence intended :)
:rofl: None taken Dave.
I'm just a poor country doctor making small SQ improvements inch by inch as and when Rt Hon J Hunt allows me to be paid :)
Poor? POOR ?
I have to say I went on the NWA site just now and felt rather belittled by the confections offered on there. I'm sure Dom & Nat are lovely people, but they certainly go for the 'bespoke' and 'pricy' end of the market. Shame, as a complete replacement bearing for the 401 would be a wonderful thing if I could get mine back (it seems to have disappeared into a huge audio black-hole and may only come to light after I'm gone :()
Poor? POOR ?
Harsh, very harsh
:unfair:
I thought it was your turn for the bone tonight, Stephen? ;)
Aye, it's eur 'ard life up theear i' Yorksha.... Av theur invested i' an ahtside looa yet, or are still sharin eur toilet wi' t' sheep?
Marco.
Spectral Morn
15-10-2015, 10:17
Poor? POOR ?
I have to say I went on the NWA site just now and felt rather belittled by the confections offered on there. I'm sure Dom & Nat are lovely people, but they certainly go for the 'bespoke' and 'pricy' end of the market. Shame, as a complete replacement bearing for the 401 would be a wonderful thing if I could get mine back (it seems to have disappeared into a huge audio black-hole and may only come to light after I'm gone :()
A link on their site - to a review - indicates a price of £450 for the bearing. That seems to be the going price for replacement or upgrade bearings, Funk, Mike New etc. Not cheap but low production runs always means the cost is higher.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
15-10-2015, 10:19
Harsh, very harsh
:unfair:
Agreed, what price quality medical advice and treatment. Training, crazy hours, stress etc, etc Drs both GP and Hospital based generally are worth their pay and more in my view.
Regards Neil
Agreed, what price quality medical advice and treatment. Training, crazy hours, stress etc, etc Drs both GP and Hospital based generally are worth their pay and more in my view.
Regards Neil:clapclapclap:
martinjohn308
24-11-2015, 08:42
Hi All,
I've been into Hi Fi for over 35 years and I've had numerous cartridges over the years.
MM
Shure V15 111, Decca London Gold.
MC ( from 1980 )
Supex 900, Asak , Asak T, several Karma's over the years. Then in 2007 went for a DV 20 L (low output), this lead me to a nearly £1000 cartridge the Micro Benz Wood SL which I found a cut above any of my previous cartridges (in 2010).
I had Derek Jenkins and Mark Digman of Tangerine Audio incidentally have looked after the LP 12 for years. They came over to remove the Khan and install the Karmen. Derek said I've brought a cartridge with me that you've got to have, I'll fit on your Aro for a few weeks to see what you think.
The cost of the new cartridge was £1700 a Kiseki Blue NS what a difference in performance to my Wood SL.
So now I know why cartridges are expensive , I didn't think the NS would be such a step up from the SL but it proved me wrong.
Regards,
Martin
walpurgis
24-11-2015, 09:51
I don't think I've heard a Kiseki MC. They have quite a reputation though.
I have four ZYX MCs. The Yatra being the costliest at over £1100 currently in the UK and that's towards the lower end of the model range. Great sounding cartridge, as are my others. R100 H2, R100 and R50. They each sound incredibly musical.
RobbieGong
24-11-2015, 11:46
I don't think I've heard a Kiseki MC. They have quite a reputation though.
I have four ZYX MCs. The Yatra being the costliest at over £1100 currently in the UK and that's towards the lower end of the model range. Great sounding cartridge, as are my others. R100 H2, R100 and R50. They each sound incredibly musical.
and if you could only keep one of your ZYX's Geoff which would it be? :eyebrows:
walpurgis
24-11-2015, 12:04
and if you could only keep one of your ZYX's Geoff which would it be? :eyebrows:
It would have to be the Yatra, as it is the best, but just listening to the R50 is extremely satisfying too. They really are each so good..
High End carts? What's the defintion for that?
As someone coming from the same situation as the OP, that is using much of the same equipment.
Michell Orbe SE, SME V (with a moderate amount of Silicon oil the damping trough) and Lyra Delos, Dynavector XX-2 Mk II and Benz Micro Wood SL.
All of these carts represent very good value i'd say. They all represent a huge leap forward sonically compared to, say i.e. a Denon DL-103 i standard disguise.
That does not mean that that i think that lower cost carts are not, musical entertaining carts that are fully enjoyable, on the contrary.
I do enjoy my DL-103 in Midas body and even more so with the DL-103SA. And furthermore i also have used Ortofon 2M Red, Blue, Bronze and Black but not with the same phono stage.
Of the four Ortofons i actually think i prefer the Blue one for allround musical presentation with small drawbacks compared to the more expensive brethren.
But of course, it's always dependant of the situation, RIAA etc. And most of all, your prefs. To me there is a clear improvement in sound up to about £1000 and then the differences/improvements are quite small considering their cost.
As a comparison my good friend uses a Lyra Atlas that replaced a Miyajima Shilabe, quite different carts sonically and yes they sound wonderful.
But are they worth the admission? No, i'd say... My Delos delivers a very similar sound to the Atlas, and the Shilabe sounds quite like my Wood SL.
Then i dont have his salary, but i doubt i'd find them worthwile considering their cost.
Particularly as his Atlas recently broke and were sent for repairs... It cost him £4000...
ATB Mike
walpurgis
24-11-2015, 12:23
I'd imagine most people interested in Hi-Fi would regard any cartridge up to £100 as entry level. From there up to maybe £400 as decent but not exorbitant. £400 to £600 being pretty pricey and above £600 is the beginning of what could be called 'High End' I guess. The sky is the limit though. If I had the cash to splash, I'd probably buy a ZYX Omega, which would likely cost upwards of £4000.
Yes, the ZYX carts have always impressed me when properly setup. Have found them a touch hifi-ish though but in the right context they surely would sound great.
If i'd have a go at something more elaborate it'd be the Shilabe cousin, with a slightly lower VTF, the -Kansui- (http://www.miyajima-lab.com/e-stereo.html)
Or, i'd be very content with a Lyra Kleos too... :)
Hi All,
I've been into Hi Fi for over 35 years and I've had numerous cartridges over the years.
MM
Shure V15 111, Decca London Gold.
MC ( from 1980 )
Supex 900, Asak , Asak T, several Karma's over the years. Then in 2007 went for a DV 20 L (low output), this lead me to a nearly £1000 cartridge the Micro Benz Wood SL which I found a cut above any of my previous cartridges (in 2010).
I had Derek Jenkins and Mark Digman of Tangerine Audio incidentally have looked after the LP 12 for years. They came over to remove the Khan and install the Karmen. Derek said I've brought a cartridge with me that you've got to have, I'll fit on your Aro for a few weeks to see what you think.
The cost of the new cartridge was £1700 a Kiseki Blue NS what a difference in performance to my Wood SL.
So now I know why cartridges are expensive , I didn't think the NS would be such a step up from the SL but it proved me wrong.
Regards,
Martin
The Kiseki is really special and I love mine.
Tom-Brown
24-11-2015, 22:15
Having just got back into "vinyl" over the past two years this all seems rather subjective, I have followed quite a bit of advice from here an other sources and have seen vast improvements in my system over all - most of which have involved the upgrade of inter-connections and tone arm wiring!! I'm presently running a 2m Black on my 401 and it's the best I've ever heard it :) Now my point is - how educated is my hearing!!! I don't feel that paying more than £6-700 quid on a cartridge would be of any advantage to me as I don't think I'd notice much more than what I'm getting at the moment!! I can understand why people do spend big, but is that just the same as someone spends £600 quid on a bottle of red wine - I wouldn't be able to tell the difference - but they do because they can!!! :)
walpurgis
25-11-2015, 00:04
The differences between cartridges is usually quite apparent at any price point.
I've just blown a good few hundred quid on a couple of fifty year old Deccas and I know they are going to sound good, but very different to my MCs, each of which sounds very fine too, but each one is different.
You can buy two modern MCs for instance, of the same model and batch, but if you listen carefully, they will sound slightly different. No two carts sound quite the same, or even measure the same, even of similar models.
Funny things cartridges.
pcourtney
25-11-2015, 01:14
Another option would be to try a top-notch MM design, such as a Nagaoka MP500, which is capable of trouncing most MCs in the musicality stakes, as well as ably ticking all the correct 'hi-fi boxes'. Trust me, you'd love it
highly underated the MP-500 IMHO, when it came out 5 or 6 years ago, a friend of mine bought one to replace his Nag 50, and it sounded top notch, up there with the likes of Soundsmith SMMC1 and 2, the B&O MMC1, Sonus Blue, AKG P8, and others that I also thought were pretty good on my SME III arm
Marco has a good ear for MM sound, so does Graham Slee ( of GS Audio fame ) , his new Accession MM Phono Stage is £800 and made only for top end carts like the Nag 500 :-)
they are both on my xmas list santa !
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