'ear we go - Ortofon Cadenza Red and Bronze

[bob4333]

Another foray into the search for something that may or may not be achievable.

I'm almost convinced that an Ortofon Red or Bronze could be worth a punt. I've just read Richard Black's comments on techradar regarding the Red (which picks up a 5 star rating)

"This is another distinctly lively cartridge, and a slightly bright-sounding one too. So much so, in fact, that in a system that is already erring on the bright side, one might find this a bit too much of a good thing. In more neutral company, however, the perception of brightness soon fades with familiarity – it's well short of discomfort levels."

My system is on the warm side of neutral and I love most of what the SAE 1000LT does, but a little more life and detail in the top end would be a good refinement, so the Red may work. But, as we know, be careful of what you wish for..........

The Shelter 5000 and Benz Micro Wood owned previously just didn't provide enough excitement in the music which is mostly of the Cream, Beatles, Floyd, Mac and Knopfler variety. The Nagaoka MP 500 almost made it but was a bit too much of a party animal and just lacked that final "something" that I wanted. Bloody close though - maybe if I'd run it for longer?

I also read somewhere "The Red is reported to excel at dynamic contrasts, and is well suited for energetic and vibrant music, such as pop and rock and roll. The Cadenza Bronze is tuned for a slightly more romantic and full bodied sound, which gives it an affinity for jazz, folk, and other types of modern acoustic music...

If I don't eat for a couple of years I could stretch to the Bronze but I'm back to taking chances with my wedge of cash and I've realised that spending a load is no guarantee of getting something better. I also realise that the "Red" is around the same price point as the Shelter and the Benz.

I want what everyone wants, so strong accurate bass (nothing bloaty), detail (I want to hear fingers on strings and sax players breathing), shimmering cymbals rather than someone hitting a biscuit tin lid. Sound-stage and presence is vital as I'm rather fond of live recordings (as opposed to studio - although I like those too!).

I'd love to hear from "Red" owners with valve preamps or systems - regarding what the cart does for them. Also comments from owners of both carts on strong points and not so strong points.

And anyone else of course.................

[hifi_dave]

You're not far off the price of a Lyra Delos.

[karma67]

You may be right there re the nag.it has broken in now and sounds much better,I thought it was good straight away but it's mellowed and sounds lovely and warm without any loss of detail.

[Tarzan]

Orbe/SME V:eek: Delos or Cadenza Red, however when l was in much the same position as yourself, the Ortofon distributor told me that for rock the Cadenza Blue was the one to have for rock.

Nice problem to have.

[CageyH]

I have heard good things about the AT150ANV. I know it is completely different, but thought I would suggest it anyway.
My basic 150MLX gives me what you described as missing from the SAE1000LT (which I also own).I have found the same thing with the SAE1000LT. It's great, but can lack the finer detail and finesse of the 150MLX. The ANV version is supposed to be better.

[bob4333]

You're not far off the price of a Lyra Delos.

Yep, Delos has been looked at and also the Helikon if I adhere to the "Red" and "Bronze" analogy. But I need some clues.

What are the strengths of each? I have little idea apart from their price points (and that's a poor guide at best).

I'd buy either if I knew they'd do the trick.

[bob4333]

You may be right there re the nag.it has broken in now and sounds much better,I thought it was good straight away but it's mellowed and sounds lovely and warm without any loss of detail.

So, it's calmed down a bit then Jamie? I loved it's "vitality".

[bob4333]

Orbe/SME V:eek: Delos or Cadenza Red, however when l was in much the same position as yourself, the Ortofon distributor told me that for rock the Cadenza Blue was the one to have for rock.

Nice problem to have.

Interesting comment from your distributor Andy. Everything I've read supports the Cadenza range as being voiced for a particular musical genre. What am I to make of this then............

"The Red is reported to excel at dynamic contrasts, and is well suited for energetic and vibrant music, such as pop and rock and roll. The Cadenza Blue has a reputation of being highly detailed and focused, and is directed for use in a system that will see a large degree of symphonic or orchestral music. The Cadenza Bronze is tuned for a slightly more romantic and full bodied sound, which gives it an affinity for jazz, folk, and other types of modern acoustic music"

They don't make it easy. In all honesty I may be quite happy with any of them but I'm trying to narrow it down to which is likely to give me the best shot before the cartridge fund gets depleted by a bathroom refurbishment or some such nonsense.:rolleyes:

[bob4333]

I have heard good things about the AT150ANV. I know it is completely different, but thought I would suggest it anyway.
My basic 150MLX gives me what you described as missing from the SAE1000LT (which I also own).I have found the same thing with the SAE1000LT. It's great, but can lack the finer detail and finesse of the 150MLX. The ANV version is supposed to be better.

Now that's an interesting speculation. Having had 3 AT carts over the years I'm not at all averse to what they can do but came to the conclusion they're very arm/phono stage dependent - maybe that's loading dependant - and I can't much change the loading on my phono stage without surgery.

Especially useful coming from an SAE user. Thanks

[walpurgis]

You're not far off the price of a Lyra Delos.

Or a ZYX R100 H2

[phonomac]

Hello there,
For a long time I used Ortofon MC cartridges (MC10, MC20,MC25FL) and a few years ago I decided that I wanted to try something different. First up was an SAE 1000LT which was good. but not markedly different. A Denon DL-304 followed which gave a bit more detail and polish, but still very polite sounding. Then a run of AT cartridges - OC9/MLII, OC9/MLII re-tipped with a Fritz Gyger FG2 stylus and most recently an AT33PTGII. I liked all of them and I still have the AT33PTGII.

The AT33 has now been replaced for regular use by an Ortofon Kontrapunkt B which I can only describe as having more authority than the AT, while preserving many of the AT attributes. It is however very dependent on system matching - mine lives in an upgraded AT-1010 arm and feeds a Hashimoto HM-3 SUT.

Your musical taste virtually parallels mine (with a bit of Tangerine Dream thrown in!) and the Cadenza Blue is the current equivalent of the Kontrapunkt B so I think the Ortofon distributor had it right.

regards

Angus

[hifi_dave]

Yep, Delos has been looked at and also the Helikon if I adhere to the "Red" and "Bronze" analogy. But I need some clues.

What are the strengths of each? I have little idea apart from their price points (and that's a poor guide at best).

I'd buy either if I knew they'd do the trick.

The Helikon was superceded some years ago. The Delos is the replacement and the least expensive of the Lyras.

Dynamics and neutrality are trademarks of Lyra cartridges, making most others sound bland and flat.

[bob4333]

The Helikon was superceded some years ago. The Delos is the replacement and the least expensive of the Lyras.

Dynamics and neutrality are trademarks of Lyra cartridges, making most others sound bland and flat.

Dave, there may be some Helikons still about.

Lyra Helikon SL £ 1,470.64 (before any, err, discussions about a final price) but it's the SL version which my phono could cope with.

What d'jer reckon?? Chasing Windmills?

[Tarzan]

I had the Orbe/SME V/ Helikon back in 2000 and it was a very nice combination indeed.

(Note to self why did you sell the Orbe?):doh:

However l still have SME V but on a tweaked Gyrodec and Cadenza Black bolted to it, ( I wanted the Bronze however Ortofon where not making them at the time:() The Cadenza line are good carts, however getting a demo of cartridges is near impossible.

[bob4333]

Hello there,
For a long time I used Ortofon MC cartridges (MC10, MC20,MC25FL) and a few years ago I decided that I wanted to try something different. First up was an SAE 1000LT which was good. but not markedly different. A Denon DL-304 followed which gave a bit more detail and polish, but still very polite sounding. Then a run of AT cartridges - OC9/MLII, OC9/MLII re-tipped with a Fritz Gyger FG2 stylus and most recently an AT33PTGII. I liked all of them and I still have the AT33PTGII.

The AT33 has now been replaced for regular use by an Ortofon Kontrapunkt B which I can only describe as having more authority than the AT, while preserving many of the AT attributes. It is however very dependent on system matching - mine lives in an upgraded AT-1010 arm and feeds a Hashimoto HM-3 SUT.

Your musical taste virtually parallels mine (with a bit of Tangerine Dream thrown in!) and the Cadenza Blue is the current equivalent of the Kontrapunkt B so I think the Ortofon distributor had it right.

regards

Angus

Yes, I also still have the AT33-PTG II which I like, but it doesn't do bass like the SAE. The Kontrapunkt B is also a contender as there are some still about. It's an interesting consideration.

[hifi_dave]

Dave, there may be some Helikons still about.

Lyra Helikon SL £ 1,470.64 (before any, err, discussions about a final price) but it's the SL version which my phono could cope with.

What d'jer reckon?? Chasing Windmills?

The Helikon was dropped, maybe, a decade ago. The Delos is a more sophisticated, advanced and better proposition and is less expensive, even before the AOS mates rate discount..:)

[DSJR]

The thread's moved on now, but I wanted to ask...

There were two Kontrapunks weren't there? I remember one of them sounding horribly thick, rounded and too 'analogue' sounding for me, but I seem to remember the other one sounding delightfully open, clear and natural. Long time ago now though...

P.S. Free 'AOS shill' for Hifi dave - cough - :lol:

[bob4333]

The Helikon was dropped, maybe, a decade ago. The Delos is a more sophisticated, advanced and better proposition and is less expensive, even before the AOS mates rate discount..:)

PM sent.

[bob4333]

So can anyone describe the sonic differences between say the Cadenza Bronze and the Lyra Delos? Does each have a "house" sound typical of their manufacturers?

And just how far behind is the Kontrapunkt B (which although superseded is still available).

[montesquieu]

I head the Cadenza Blue at Jack 'nonsmokingman's place ... was absolutely superb with blues and jazz, and also withe the Classical I brought.

I owned a Jubilee a few years back ... maybe it was the setup but this sounded superior to me. Given the (relatively) sane price level could be worth a look.

[bob4333]

... maybe it was the setup....

Tom, if you're talking about partnering kit then I think you've mentioned the most crucial aspect of the whole thing. Never has synergy had a more important part to play. Not quite sure how long the Jubilee has been out of production now - superseded by the Cadenza's I think? By coincidence, in my gazing through the multitude of internet ramblings, I found this:

"So how did this Lyra (Delos) compare to the discontinued Ortofon Jubilee I cherished for so long?

Very, very well. In fact, in my system, I preferred the Delos in every way: It just seemed to let more sonic and musical splendors through, as if there was less haze between me and the music. "Veils were lifted," as audiophiles used to say back in the day, and every record I played sounded as if it "snapped" into a tighter auditory focus courtesy (of) the Delos.....

......The Lyra Delos was the most musically convincing cartridge I'd yet heard in my own system--no small feat considering the Delos costs noticeably less than the Jubilee ($1649 vs. $2199), and that the latter still handily bests many pricier cartridges."

I admit to still being more than a little uncertain as to which Ortofon Cartridge (Red, Blue or Bronze) would come closest to suiting my musical tastes although I'm relatively happy that they'd each sit OK in my system. Likewise I'm still trying to form a view on the sonic characteristics of the Delos.

I haven't actually found a poor review of any of those listed - but that doesn't automatically translate into "buy any one of them and you'll be fine".

Translating music into words is a rare gift.

[petrat]

Buy the blue.

There you go ... no need for all this stress and option anxiety, is there? :D

[bob4333]

Buy the blue.

There you go ... no need for all this stress and option anxiety, is there? :D

Yeah, that'll work. Never thought of it, don't know what I'm messing about at...................:carrot:

[montesquieu]

Buy the blue.

There you go ... no need for all this stress and option anxiety, is there? :D


Totally agree.

I've had a few Lyras (Clavis, Dorian, Argo i, Dorian Mono, Helicon) and heard a few others ... and while for me the best of the bunch was the Argo i (in terms of having the most 'fleshy' presentation, the Helicon being by far the worst, frankly a bit nails on a blackboard), none of them really floated my boat. All a bit hifi ... obviously partnering kit makes a difference (they are generally medium to high compliance which don't suit the heavy arms I generally prefer) but overall I prefer the Ortofon sound to Lyra. YMMV (and frequently does).

[bob4333]

Totally agree.

I've had a few Lyras (Clavis, Dorian, Argo i, Dorian Mono, Helicon) and heard a few others ... and while for me the best of the bunch was the Argo i (in terms of having the most 'fleshy' presentation, the Helicon being by far the worst, frankly a bit nails on a blackboard), none of them really floated my boat. All a bit hifi ... obviously partnering kit makes a difference (they are generally medium to high compliance which don't suit the heavy arms I generally prefer) but overall I prefer the Ortofon sound to Lyra. YMMV (and frequently does).

Tom, it looks like you certainly got through your fair share of Lyras, presumably there was something that appealed to you about their sound quality at some point?

Can you put into words what the Ortofon gave you that the Lyras failed to produce? The Blue seems to be getting quite a lot of support.

[montesquieu]

A lot of this was in my early days of serious Hifi, when I was on a 'detail quest'. Lyras deliver that in spades as you go up the range, but in some models it's art he expense of body ... It's a sound I was attracted to but was ultimately a dead end in my system.

Ortofon house sound - in general - has more body though at the high end they can fall into the same Hifi trap - I generally find the simpler stylus profiles more musical than the high end Relplicant ones. I currently have 3 Miyajimas but after hearing the Blue I genuinely asked myself whether what I have (retail over £5k when you add up Shilabe. zero and premium 78£ is overkill.

But the Miyajimas are the best I've heard so far - over all sorts of Lyras, Koetsus, Dynavectors and Ortofons not to mention the runner up, AN Io, at making music while still having strong Hifi attributes (soundstage; detail and so on).

[allthingsanalogue]

Delos cartridge owner here, best cart i ever owned.

[Tarzan]

Delos cartridge owner here, best cart i ever owned.


Can imagine a Delos suiting the Techie well.:)