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mancubus
02-10-2009, 10:48
Hello, I just wanted to know why you all put 250ST on techies and not 250S ? :scratch:

Marco
02-10-2009, 10:54
Hi,

First of all, I wasn't aware that there was a '250S'... Obviously there is, so what's the difference?

Incidentally, we usually ask people to post a thread in the Welcome area of the forum first, stating their first name and basic location, etc, so please do this as soon as you can :)

This is the area you need to access:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=15

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

chris@panteg
02-10-2009, 21:09
Is this what you mean

http://cgi.ebay.com/HI-END-JELCO-SA-250-S-SHAPE-TONEARM_W0QQitemZ300344993170QQcmdZViewItemQQssPag eNameZRSS:B:SRCH:US:105

The Vinyl Adventure
02-10-2009, 21:52
Where's dave dave c when you need him... I'd spotted this about too!

Dave Cawley
02-10-2009, 22:01
It is the very bottom of the Jelco range arm. But this thread is not what it seems. Hence I'm staying away!!

Dave

Beechwoods
02-10-2009, 22:12
this thread is not what it seems. Hence I'm staying away!!

How mysterious :scratch: :confused:

DaveK
02-10-2009, 22:15
But this thread is not what it seems. Hence I'm staying away!!

Dave

Hi Dave,
Bit enigmatic or cryptic statement, that - care to elucidate, perhaps by PM?
Cheers,

The Vinyl Adventure
02-10-2009, 22:26
.... What on earth? How very odd!

DaveK
02-10-2009, 22:53
Hi,

First of all, I wasn't aware that there was a '250S'... Obviously there is, so what's the difference?

Marco.

Hi Marco,
Looking at the picture posted on Dave C's site and the picture posted on the linked eBay site, one seems to be a straight arm (Dave's) and one seems to be S shaped - maybe that's the difference, or maybe Dave might care to throw a little more light on the whole subject? :scratch: .
Cheers,

The Vinyl Adventure
02-10-2009, 22:59
ST = straight tube
S = s shaped

??? Easy peasy

Marco
02-10-2009, 23:11
Hi Dave,

Yep, it's just that the only S-shaped Jelco I knew of was the 750D - and the straight one was the 250ST. I wasn't aware of a '250S'.

Looking at the picture of the '250S' on Ebay, though, I can't see why it wouldn't be as good as a 250T. It looks identical to the 250T apart from the shape of the armtube, so I don't really get why Dave doesn't rate it...

I'd like to see the spec of both arms to figure out why the '250S' is apparently much worse than the 250ST. I'll take Dave's word on it, but I'd still like to know why.

As for Mr 'mancubus', I believe that Dave's had, shall we say, a few less than positive dealings in that direction, and is therefore 'washing his hands' of him, so to speak ;)

Marco.

blake
02-10-2009, 23:14
ST = straight tube
S = s shaped

??? Easy peasy

Yes, that's it in a nutshell. The "S" has a detachable headshell with azimuth adjustment, the ST a fixed headshell. The "S" is a higher mass arm and therefore a bit more compatible with lower compliance cartridges or those that prefer a massier arm like the Denon 103 series and offers a bit more tweakability in terms of custom headshells. Different strokes for different folks (and cartridges).

Not sure why one would describe it as the "bottom of the line" of Jelcos as the S and ST share exactly the same bearings and internal wiring. They are also sold at exactly the same price here in North America or on E-bay. The 750D has superior finish, a more sophisticated bearing system and the best internal wiring that Jelco does as well as oil damping capability which neither the S or ST have.

If the "S" is bottom of the line, that would certainly be ironic. Some very high end turntable manufacturers (Galibier and TW Acustic for example) have seen fit to include it as the standard arm on their tables in the past (and may well do so presently) under names such as Artisan Capriccio and Vivid 2 (just do a google search on those names).

Marco
02-10-2009, 23:20
Hi Blake,

That's most interesting, as it's just what I was thinking! I've seen that arm on the TW Acustic badged under another name and priced separately at something ridiculous like 680. There was a review of it (and the partnering T/T) by Ken Kessler in HFN. I'll see if I can look it out. I think Dave needs to clarify somewhat here...


The 750D has superior finish, a more sophisticated bearing system and the best internal wiring that Jelco does as well as oil damping capability which neither the S or ST have


Yup - this I knew, hence why I'm using a 750D :)

Looking at the 250S I knew that it wasn't as good as the 750D, but couldn't see why it should be any worse than a 250ST, or be 'bottom of the line'..... :scratch:

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
02-10-2009, 23:22
Hmm ... Changable headshell and azimuth adjust sounds usefull.. But surely if they are the same price, if the s has extra features it must be less well speced in other areas... That is the logical conclusion... But I know in the world of hifi that doesn't always mean much!
It's a shame dave is not up to posting much, I'm fairly certain he's one of the most trustworthy sources of info in this area!

kcc123
03-10-2009, 00:36
The Jelco 250ST is more or less the same as my Mission 774LC and AR tonearms except their badge; they both are made by Jelco as well.

chris@panteg
03-10-2009, 12:30
It might be worth asking DP on this one as he NK have tried and tested it ' i am sure.

NK seemed to think the 250s was quite poor as i remember.

Tolstoi
04-10-2009, 07:43
Hi,
I know this thread is about the 250 but I want to throw in another tonearm listed on ebay uk and it's a Jelco 370 which doesn't show up at all on the Jelco/Itchikawa site.

Anyone know anything about it?

BTW I also always wanted to know how the 250 is rated so this thread is interesting for me.

Cheers

Joerg

MartinT
04-10-2009, 22:00
As well as featuring lower effective mass than the 750D, the 250ST has a fixed headshell meaning no joint in the arm tube. Horses for courses, but it's why the 250ST performs so very well with lighter mass/tracking cartridges. Its popularity on the Technics is because the latter is such a very fine basis for good arms.

Beobloke
05-10-2009, 12:15
I've had a good play with all three types and can confirm that the SA-250ST is indeed a better arm than the SA-250 S-shaped type. I know not the rhyme or reason behind it but the tube on the S-shaped version is not as well damped and shows itself as much more lively in vibrational terms when measured by accelerometer. This translates into a less focused sound and the ST variant is tighter and better controlled, with a more coherent soundstage. The SA-750D is a different kettle of fish, however, and is a stonker, as many of us here know!

The SA-370 is an older type that came as standard on LAD turntables amongst others, and bears more of a resemblance to the SA-750 and the older Sumiko MMT and is another good performer. One of mine went up to Johnnie at Audio Origami (well, actually, I sent him a bag of bits and said "see what the hell you can do with these"....) and it came back rebuilt and rejuvenated, and he was quite complementary about it. Sounds great as well!

Marco
05-10-2009, 12:24
Thanks for the clarification, Adam - much appreciated!

Btw, it was nice meeting your good lady and you at Whittlebury Hall. I enjoyed our 'session' in the bar during the evening :cool:

Will you be doing your thing again at the pie show in March?

Marco.

Beobloke
05-10-2009, 14:56
Thanks for the clarification, Adam - much appreciated!

Btw, it was nice meeting your good lady and you at Whittlebury Hall. I enjoyed our 'session' in the bar during the evening :cool:

Will you be doing your thing again at the pie show in March?

Marco.

Yes, it was indeed a great evening in the bar -good to meet you and put a face to a name at last!

I will indeed be doing the pie show next year - how about you? I hope to have a helper with me next time as well, to allow me to have a wander round.

Oh, and just in case anyone cries "Off Topic" at this point - I'll be bringing along a few more of the Beobloke turntable collection to my room at the show next year, and at least one will have a Jelco arm on it........;)

Marco
05-10-2009, 15:15
Yes, AoS will be represented (I'll definitely be there), and this time we'll be bringing our own speakers - namely my vintage Tannoy Lockwoods.

Make sure you drop by and have a listen. I'll definitely pop by your room and say hello. Can't wait to see your selection of T/T 'misdemeanours' next year! :lolsign:

;)

Marco.

Ammonite Acoustics
05-10-2009, 17:59
Yes, AoS will be represented (I'll definitely be there), and this time we'll be bringing our own speakers - namely my vintage Tannoy Lockwoods......

I dare you to keep the formica finish for that!

Marco
05-10-2009, 18:01
LOL - why? Chances are, they'll probably be re-veneered by then :)

Marco.

blake
06-10-2009, 04:06
I've had a good play with all three types and can confirm that the SA-250ST is indeed a better arm than the SA-250 S-shaped type. I know not the rhyme or reason behind it but the tube on the S-shaped version is not as well damped and shows itself as much more lively in vibrational terms when measured by accelerometer. This translates into a less focused sound and the ST variant is tighter and better controlled, with a more coherent soundstage. The SA-750D is a different kettle of fish, however, and is a stonker, as many of us here know!

The SA-370 is an older type that came as standard on LAD turntables amongst others, and bears more of a resemblance to the SA-750 and the older Sumiko MMT and is another good performer. One of mine went up to Johnnie at Audio Origami (well, actually, I sent him a bag of bits and said "see what the hell you can do with these"....) and it came back rebuilt and rejuvenated, and he was quite complementary about it. Sounds great as well!

I'm curious about this. Did you put the accelerometer on the 750D as well? And if so, how did it compare to the 250S in vibrational terms? If the 750D tests better, would that have anything to do with the improved bearings (I would assume not, but who knows?) in the 750D or would it come down to superior damping in the arm tube itself.

Having owned a Sumiko FT3, a Sumiko MMT and a 750D (which is clearly the best with a wood bodied Denon 103R) I would have assumed that the 250ST most closely approximated the FT3 (in terms of geometry and its compatibilty with higher compliance cartridges due to its lower mass) while the 250S would be more of a cousin to the MMT.

The 750D certainly resembles the MMT. I'd be curious as to whether it has significantly improved vibrational characteristics relative to the 250S (and I'd certainly be happy to hear about that) with respect to the arm tube itself and not just the bearings-that would indicate even further improvements in the 750D beyond bearing, wiring and the oil damping capability, but I have my doubts with respect to this.

I think the arm tube is essentially the same in the 750D and 250S with the exception of the chrome finish, but I'd be happy to hear otherwise. In my correspondence with Jelco, they made no mention of inherent differences in the arm tubes of the 250S and 750D.

Vibrational characteristics not withstanding, I would think that the increased mass of the 250S would make for better performance with certain (read lower compliance) cartridges. What cartridges did you use in your evaluation of the 250S vs. the 250ST when establishing that the 250S has less focus and a less coherent sound stage?

Dave Cawley
06-10-2009, 07:17
Hi Blake

Suggest you read all the articles Adam and Noel wrote in Hi Fi World about this. Jelco arms have been tested on numerous turntables as well, notably the Avid which I supplied to them. Jelco Japan do not speak very good English and often do not answer questions, you can't assume anything from this though, as I found out! There is no evidence to suggest arm materials are the same.

I have an identical test set up to Hi Fi World www.soundhifi.com/test.html if there is anything you want specifically measured, and can tell me why, I would be happy to oblige?

Regards

Dave

Beobloke
06-10-2009, 08:32
Sadly, time constraints for the publication of the relevant issue meant that the Jelco SA-750D did not get measured when I reviewed it, which was a great shame, however, the SA-250, SA-250ST and the Dr. Feickert 1o5 (which is merely a 10.5" version of the SA-250) did, and the ST was notably better than both of them. I would still be very keen to see a measurement of the SA-750D to see how it compares but my ears tell me that it has much more of a sonic family resemblance to the ST than the cheaper S-shaped versions (the 1o5 was particuarly disappointing, being flat and lifeless sounding).

Regarding cartridges, all my comparisons have been carried out using both the Goldring 2500 MM and Audio Technica AT-OC9MLII MC which will behave and sound different to the DL103 variants, but at least provide a constant point of reference. As an aside, I have found the 2500 to be quite finicky about the arms in which it is mounted (the older 1042 was much more user-friendly in this respect) but the best sound I have ever heard it give was in the SA-750D - a winning combination it would appear!

blake
06-10-2009, 12:52
Hi Dave: I have Adam's Hi Fi World review of the 750D and it was certainly a factor in my decision to spring for the 750D over the 250S and I've been extremely happy! If there are other articles, I won't have any access to them; if you could point me in their direction or link to them that would be great.

I guess what I was really curious about was a direct comparison on the vibrational characteristics of the 250S and the 750D which would indicate that there is, in fact, a difference in the arm tube relating to construction, damping or material rather than just finish. This would make me feel even better about my purchase of the 750D! It might also further explain the 750D's superiority (and or the differences between the 250S and 250ST) beyond potential cartridge/tonearm incompatibilities relating to mass and compliance. It would make sense to me, for example, that the Goldring and AT would not like the "Feickert" arm.

Adam: your comment on the Feickert 1o5 is particularly interesting (almost funny!) to me as I got into a bit of a dustup with a poster or two at Audiogon for suggesting that the Feickert arm was simply a longer version of the SA-250 and the same arm that a couple of Jelco retailers around the world were selling for considerably (and I mean considerably!!!) less money. They insisted that the Feickert was more advanced and improved by Jelco with superior bearings, etc. but really provided no concrete information or evidence; sadly this has been a common occurrence with Jelco in the past-with, for example, arms like the Graham Robin and "Koetsu" arm being sold at much higher prices than the stone cold Jelco badged equivalent.

There is no doubt, though, that Jelco turns out a fine product at a very reasonable price.