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awkwardbydesign
28-09-2015, 15:14
I grew up with LPs, and resisted CDs as long as I could. But eventually I almost stopped buying LPs and concentrated on CDs. Recently I have succumbed to FBA, ripping CDs and streaming, via a Squeezebox Duet, and not bothering to move my lazy arse and put on a CD. Even though in my system they sound slightly better.
But although I buy downloads, I still buy CDs sometimes, and the other day I decided to buy a CD of the album I wanted, rather than download it. It costs more, but it includes a 36 page booklet, with photos and a history of the artist and his music. Looking at my CD rack, it seems more and more CDs are packaged this way, Fink being a good example; 4 out of 9 have booklets.
So I wondered if this is how CDs will survive in the download age, given that LPs have the hands-on, big artwork, this LOOKS like it's worth owning sector covered. CDs are boring little plastic things, too small for artwork, and being digital have been outpaced by newer formats.
I bought this CD for the book; it came with a lossless download anyway, and I have to admit I am pleased to have it. Plus it smelled of newly printed paper!
https://seckoukeita.bandcamp.com/album/22-strings
So what IS the future for CDs?

Macca
28-09-2015, 15:39
Check out 8 track. That is what CD will end up like. I don't know how long that will take but I suspect it will happen more quickly than we might think.

Plenty of people like me will still be using them in their own home and maybe still buying them second-hand - but at some point it will no longer be worthwhile for retailers, either high street or on line to keep them in stock. We can all remember this happening with vinyl. My local record shop had a whole floor for vinyl - it was replaced by a whole floor of DVDs. Then the shop closed alltogether.

Vinyl is back now but I can't see CD resurrecting from the grave in the same way. Vinyl was always cool but CD was only cool for about ten minutes three decades ago.

Jimbo
28-09-2015, 15:44
Ok for ripping or the car but I would not seriously ever use them as a main source again. I think they are another doomed media.

Haselsh1
28-09-2015, 15:55
I guess it really depends on the general public and demand. Who the hell would have imagined that vinyl would make a come back...? I have to admit though that vinyl is way trendier than CD ever has been. Like so many more, I'll wait and see.

walpurgis
28-09-2015, 16:35
I like and use vinyl and CD and will be keeping both. No reason to change.

Rothchild
28-09-2015, 16:52
Their future is to be bought up, by me, at stupid cheap prices from charity shops and ripped to my Pi.

I get 7 CDs for a fiver that not long ago folk paid 12-15 each for - It's kinda like charity shop crate digging for vinyl was 5 years ago.

Pieoftheday
28-09-2015, 17:07
I'll stick with CD's for as long as poss, I like having a physical copy, I don't have the space or money to reinvest in vinyl,though I do appreciate its magic, I tried downloads and found it an empty experience, SQ wise it was fine but I didn't feel like I owned the album. I would like to rip everything to something like a novafidelity x40, because I'm a lazy git, but I'd still keep buying cd's:)

Stratmangler
28-09-2015, 17:12
Recently I have succumbed to FBA, ripping CDs and streaming, via a Squeezebox Duet, and not bothering to move my lazy arse and put on a CD. Even though in my system they sound slightly better.

The Squeezebox Receiver (which is part of what you have - the Duet comprises a Squeezebox Controller and a Squeezebox Receiver) never was the best sounding piece of kit.
It's not even that great at being a transport either.
The Squeezebox Touch (with a decent linear PSU) is superior sounding by quite some margin.
It's also a superior transport.

The bit about buying downloads.
Where do you buy your downloads from?
I refuse to buy from Apple and Amazon - they do not sell losslessly compressed music for download.
CD Baby do have losslessly compressed (FLAC) material for sale, but the catalogue is not exactly huge, and the artist roster is not particularly comprehensive.
HD Tracks sell FLAC options.

Many artists are now starting to sell downloads direct from their own web store, so it's down to them to provide losslessly compressed material - if they do sell their own material and they don't provide FLAC downloads then it's up to us as consumers to put them in the know and tell them we don't want to buy music that has been subjected to lossy compression.
MP3 files @ 192bps are not acceptable in my book. I'm not that keen at having them at 320kbps, but they are more acceptable than 192 kbps.

For the medium term the only way to guarantee having losslessly compressed files is to buy the CDs (Amazon marketplace is somewhere I look at all the time) and rip them myself.
All of which means that I do, and will continue to buy CDs quite regularly :cool:

Dane
28-09-2015, 17:13
I hardly ever buy CD's because most of the time the new music releases I want to buy is out on vinyl. If it's not, I buy a CD. As long as I have a choice, I'll avoid streaming and downloads. I don't have the equipment for it and frankly, the streaming I have heard at audio fears from high end stereo setups way more expensive than my own hi-fi sounded a bit thin and clinical. I'll stick to to the CD any day. That said, I rarely listen to CD's at home, 9 out of 10 times I grab an LP, but when I do put on a CD, I enjoy the music sound from my quality DAC and old CD player.

awkwardbydesign
28-09-2015, 17:54
Vinyl is back now but I can't see CD resurrecting from the grave in the same way. Vinyl was always cool but CD was only cool for about ten minutes three decades ago.
Vinyl wasn't cool in the beginning. It was simply the only (realistic) game in town. It's cool now, but I think that is due, in part, because of DJs playing 12" singles in clubs. And there is a generation now who never used records (as they were called, they are only called vinyl now), so there may be a hankering for the good old days. So to speak. CDs were soulless, but now it's downloads. So can CDs provide "added value" with books, or something else?

awkwardbydesign
28-09-2015, 17:57
Ok for ripping or the car but I would not seriously ever use them as a main source again. I think they are another doomed media.
Maybe that could be another marketing strategy? The in-car market?

awkwardbydesign
28-09-2015, 17:59
I guess it really depends on the general public and demand. Who the hell would have imagined that vinyl would make a come back...? I have to admit though that vinyl is way trendier than CD ever has been. Like so many more, I'll wait and see.
Chicken! How about speculating?

Pieoftheday
28-09-2015, 18:01
Do downloads outstrip CD sales yet?

Stratmangler
28-09-2015, 18:07
Do downloads outstrip CD sales yet?

From last year http://musically.com/2015/01/01/uk-music-streams-2014-digital/

awkwardbydesign
28-09-2015, 18:26
The Squeezebox Receiver (which is part of what you have - the Duet comprises a Squeezebox Controller and a Squeezebox Receiver) never was the best sounding piece of kit.
It's not even that great at being a transport either.
The Squeezebox Touch (with a decent linear PSU) is superior sounding by quite some margin.
It's also a superior transport.

The bit about buying downloads.
Where do you buy your downloads from?

For the medium term the only way to guarantee having losslessly compressed files is to buy the CDs (Amazon marketplace is somewhere I look at all the time) and rip them myself.
All of which means that I do, and will continue to buy CDs quite regularly :cool:
OK, a bit away from the original question, But the Duet was available (and cheap; it ended up free, as it had a fault initially) for dipping my toe in the FBA waters. Plus I have already built a linear PSU for it and it can be Lampizated! The controller next to me is ideal too, easier to read than an SBT across the room.
Downloads; at the moment I am busily burrowing into Bandcamp's catalogue, which can be WAV, FLAC, or whatever you like. I don't have much interest in "popular" music, so the oddball stuff there suits me. But I buy from artists too ( The Bevis Frond recently, CD and download).
And yes, I rip mainly, but of course downloads are often cheaper and quicker; no waiting!
So back to the question; what can CDs do to make themselves "sexier"? The Seckou Keita album with it's book smelling new is what prompted this thread, and it's something that makes me want to buy the CD.

awkwardbydesign
28-09-2015, 18:35
From last year http://musically.com/2015/01/01/uk-music-streams-2014-digital/
Exactly! So what, if anything, can CDs do to survive? LPs (I refuse to call them vinyl, or even worse, vinyls!) may fall out of fashion, although there will always (probably) be those who love the physical challenge involved, but CDs? Who knows?
BTW, after buying the Seckou Keita CD, I looked on his website and found he is playing in Dartmouth on the 17th of October. So we are going to see him! I doubt I would have bothered looking if the book hadn't been so interesting.

Barry
28-09-2015, 19:17
Exactly! So what, if anything, can CDs do to survive? LPs (I refuse to call them vinyl, or even worse, vinyls!) may fall out of fashion, although there will always (probably) be those who love the physical challenge involved, but CDs? Who knows?
BTW, after buying the Seckou Keita CD, I looked on his website and found he is playing in Dartmouth on the 17th of October. So we are going to see him! I doubt I would have bothered looking if the book hadn't been so interesting.

Saw him in North Wales last year. Wonderful!

Pieoftheday
28-09-2015, 19:18
From last year http://musically.com/2015/01/01/uk-music-streams-2014-digital/

Plenty of coin left in CD sales at the moment then,and the bigwigs won't give that up easily, I guess we are at the mercy of the market and future tech when all is said and done, I. Like CD's , especially when artists can be arsed with a decent inlay and good product ion

Stratmangler
28-09-2015, 19:31
So back to the question; what can CDs do to make themselves "sexier"? The Seckou Keita album with it's book smelling new is what prompted this thread, and it's something that makes me want to buy the CD.

Smell is an underrated sense - my son's Gibson Les Paul Junior smells just fantastic, the way I remember guitars smelling when I was in my teens. That's nitrocellulose finishes for you.
That wonderful aroma permeates everything that resides in the guitar case.

My reason for buying CDs is simply to rip them.
It's nice to see an effort being made with the artwork, but the liner notes are always too small to read comfortably once you're past a certain age.
The only reason for me wanting a CD enough to buy it is because I want to rip it to my server. I'd be quite happy with a download if it was lossless and if it cost less than the physical media.
Having the physical media is overrated - I have had more than a couple of CDs that have perished due to poor manufacturing processes.

I don't think it's possible to make a CD any sexier to the public at large - they're quite happy buying lossily compressed shite from the iTunes/Amazon store.
They're quite happy listening to their "choons" played from an iPod/iPhone sat on a crappy dock with overpowering but flabby bass response.
We're the thin edge of the wedge, and our habits and practises pale into almost insignificance.

RobbieGong
28-09-2015, 19:46
I like and use vinyl and CD and will be keeping both. No reason to change.

Ditto Geoff. Whilst vinyl at its best blows me away, there are a few very good CDP's renowned for a smoother less typically glassy / hard presentation. You actually brought such a player to my attention here once ;). Every review I've checked since says the same - smooth, detailed analogue like sound. Not saying which cdp though until I bag one - one day :eyebrows:

walpurgis
28-09-2015, 19:49
Well it's only going to be one of two makes.

RobbieGong
28-09-2015, 19:57
Go on then :) either that or we can chew da fat via pm first then come back here for a giggle :D

walpurgis
28-09-2015, 20:23
Meridian or Pioneer. A 206, 506 or 507 would do. Or a PD-S505 Precision.

You could throw a NAD 524 into the mix too. I've always liked the sound of Mark Levinson and Wadia players, but never felt I could justify spending that much.

RobbieGong
28-09-2015, 20:25
'Mine' might be amongst that lot - not saying :ner: ;) :)

walpurgis
28-09-2015, 20:27
'Mine' might be amongst that lot - not saying :ner: ;) :)

Well you'd better hurry up and get one. Then you can tell us what it is and how it is. ;)

walpurgis
28-09-2015, 20:28
Well you'd better hurry up and get one. Then you can tell us how it is. ;)

I should add that all the cheaper players mentioned make great CD transports.

RobbieGong
28-09-2015, 20:34
Well you'd better hurry up and get one. Then you can tell us what it is and how it is. ;)

Defo Geoff, it will replace my Marantz CD63 KI one day for sure :)

walpurgis
28-09-2015, 20:41
Defo Geoff, it will replace my Marantz CD63 KI one day for sure :)

The Marantz is not too shabby. Why not just use it as a transport with a good DAC. You'd be amazed what can be achieved.

If you do, I'll donate one of my 'magic' digital interconnects.

RobbieGong
28-09-2015, 20:49
The Marantz is not too shabby. Why not just use it as a transport with a good DAC. You'd be amazed what can be achieved.

If you do, I'll donate one of my 'magic' digital interconnects.

Thanks Geoff but I'm so old school it is untrue and don't even have an interest in knowing what a dac is \ does. I've always been a one good piece for the job kind of guy. Can't be asked with the faff of other little boxes attached 'to get there'. I'm a boring integrated amp with decent built in phono stage, decent cdp and so on type of audio nut - simplistic and boring I know but it works for me :)

awkwardbydesign
28-09-2015, 20:51
It's nice to see an effort being made with the artwork, but the liner notes are always too small to read comfortably once you're past a certain age.
That's what the book addresses. I can't read inserts, but this I can read. And I'm well past a certain age!
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/Mobile%20Uploads/20150926_211803_zpsnfjntgun.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/Mobile%20Uploads/20150926_211723_zpsao15slyu.jpg


I don't think it's possible to make a CD any sexier to the public at large - they're quite happy buying lossily compressed shite from the iTunes/Amazon store.
They're quite happy listening to their "choons" played from an iPod/iPhone sat on a crappy dock with overpowering but flabby bass response.
We're the thin edge of the wedge, and our habits and practises pale into almost insignificance.
But "they" are spending serious money on headphones. http://www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk/Headphones/Headphones/Headphones/range.html And they show up how bad some of the choons can sound. Or how good. I understand it's not likely to be the mass market that would care, but LPs are surviving as a minority interest. Your habits and practices may be insignificant*, but the middle of the wedge might have enough spending power to be worth courting.
* Sorry, couldn't resist. :D

Stratmangler
28-09-2015, 20:52
Go on then :) either that or we can chew da fat via pm first then come back here for a giggle :D

Good idea Robert.
How's about some thread editing Geoff?

RMutt
28-09-2015, 21:00
My local Morrisons has given up on them. They were selling Replay second hand CD's at £2 or three for £5. They weren't selling, admittedly it was pot luck with what was available, and so they have stopped and replaced them with DVD's which do sell. It looks like the remaining stock is at poundland for, not surprisingly, a pound a go. CD's are really good value at the moment I reckon and I wouldn't be surprised to see them come back into expensive vogue like records in the future. Get 'em now while they're cheap!

awkwardbydesign
28-09-2015, 21:02
I should add that all the cheaper players mentioned make great CD transports.
I have Meridian 200 transport, with a Teradak Chameleon NOS DAC. But one of the things that might kill CDs has happened; the 200 will no longer read CD-Rs! So I use the Consonance CDP, also NOS.


Thanks Geoff but I'm so old school it is untrue and don't even have an interest in knowing what a dac is \ does. I've always been a one good piece for the job kind of guy. Can't be asked with the faff of other little boxes attached 'to get there'. I'm a boring integrated amp with decent built in phono stage, decent cdp and so on type of audio nut - simplistic and boring I know but it works for me :)
Probably the most sensible way to be. But then I've never been sensible!
And did you watch Dave Gorman the other night? Him and his elk (ilk), like a bowl (bull) in a china shop, and other misused sayings? :lol:

daytona600
28-09-2015, 21:06
Lat six months for the USA

Total value of shipments in physical formats was $748
million, down 17% versus 1H 2014. CDs made up 66% of
total physical shipments by value. Vinyl was up 52% by
value for the first half of the year

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/riaa-mid-year-statistics-vinyl-still-on-the-rise.467037/

walpurgis
28-09-2015, 21:48
I have Meridian 200 transport, with a Teradak Chameleon NOS DAC. But one of the things that might kill CDs has happened; the 200 will no longer read CD-Rs! So I use the Consonance CDP, also NOS.

I have four CD players/transports and two good quality DVD players that do CD well, so likely I'll have enough to keep me going.

awkwardbydesign
28-09-2015, 21:56
I have four CD players/transports and two good quality DVD players that do CD well, so likely I'll have enough to keep me going.

Ah, but we're the past. It's the future I'm curious about.

walpurgis
28-09-2015, 22:26
Ah, but we're the past. It's the future I'm curious about.

As long as I have music that I like I'm not worried about the future. I have all I really need already and the sound quality I get is as good as I could ask for, via vinyl or CD.

Audio Advent
28-09-2015, 23:35
Lat six months for the USA

Total value of shipments in physical formats was $748
million, down 17% versus 1H 2014. CDs made up 66% of
total physical shipments by value. Vinyl was up 52% by
value for the first half of the year

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/riaa-mid-year-statistics-vinyl-still-on-the-rise.467037/

"Vinyl up 52% by value" - so the sales have remained static but the prices have rocketed? The link states that vinyl sales by value are 50% of the CD sales by value - so is this just a stat which is telling us that vinyl costs many multiples of the average CD price? The stats are kind of meaningless on their own. In the UK, vinyl sales make up about 4% of UNIT sales or thereabouts and imagine something similar for the US - still sadly an enthusiast thing, just enthusiast spending mulitple times on one album than someone buying a CD.

So those stats are only of any importance to people making the money like the RIAA's clients. They'll no doubt be rubbing their hands that they can get so much more money per unit for a single recording project from this one vinyl-buying demographic rather than the tight-fisted CD buyers.

A friend said to me once, after I bought some CDs from a charity shop (so not on any industry figures), that I was the only person he knew who actually still bought CDs.. So many people I know don't buy any music at all, other than their £10 Spotify subscription - they don't own a single physical copy of anything at all! Those people just don't have the room for a physical collection as they houseshare or move a lot - certainly none of them are going to have the luxury of a permanent home any time soon to actually house a collection.

The future of all physical formats in my opinion is about the same 5% as vinyl - CD will collapse down over time.

Audio Advent
28-09-2015, 23:54
According to the RIAA figures (link within the link), DVD-Audio has incresed 400% by unit sales! Although only 100,000 sales total.

Total physical and download sales are down 23% in units, 18% by value.. whilst streaming is up 22% / 27% by value (paid subscription / ad supported). Total sales of all music was down 12% in unit terms ( whilst that only impacted 0.5% loss in revenue, such are price hikes).

Looks like a general trend towards streaming in total, not even FBA.

Macca
29-09-2015, 07:38
"The future of all physical formats in my opinion is about the same 5% as vinyl - CD will collapse down over time.

I agree. The mass market dictates - look how quickly VHS tapes became an anachronism when DVD appeared. They went from desirable items to junk you couldn't give away in about 2 years. If you are under 30 then you download, you don't buy physical media unless you are one of the tiny minority in your age group who have got on the vinyl bandwagon. There is no CD bandwagon, that's why it will soon be finished.

Marco
29-09-2015, 07:46
As long as I have music that I like I'm not worried about the future. I have all I really need already and the sound quality I get is as good as I could ask for, via vinyl or CD.

+1. If I never bought another record or CD again (although that won't happen), I'd have all the music I really need, which currently stands at around 3500 records and 2000 CDs, and that's not including 100s of albums I've got stored on my NAS, to stream with the RPi.

However, being a music lover first, and a hi-fi nut second, and always on the lookout for new music, my physical music collection (especially on vinyl) is only likely to grow, as I still much prefer owing the music software I have, and for it to have an intrinsic value, both in a monetary and emotional sense, rather than a 'faceless/worthless file' - or not even that with Spotify!

For me, CD is defo (eventually) on its way out, and vinyl is only destined to become more and more popular, for various reasons, not least of which is that it's cool, and allows you to 'connect' with music on a totally different level, compared with streaming :cool:

Marco.

Marco
29-09-2015, 07:55
A friend said to me once, after I bought some CDs from a charity shop (so not on any industry figures), that I was the only person he knew who actually still bought CDs.. So many people I know don't buy any music at all, other than their £10 Spotify subscription - they don't own a single physical copy of anything at all! Those people just don't have the room for a physical collection as they houseshare or move a lot - certainly none of them are going to have the luxury of a permanent home any time soon to actually house a collection.


I guess that's living in London for you, where it's so expensive to put down roots. It must be a nightmare, never owning your own permanent space, and being constantly on the move. I certainly couldn't hack it. I've only lived in four different places in my entire life! :)

Marco.

Macca
29-09-2015, 07:59
The space thing has nothing to do with it. 200 CDs will fit in a small box, I mean how small is your flat if you don't have room for that? My room at college was about 6' by 10' - I had several hundred LPs and maybe a hundred cassette tapes and you could still get in the door with no problem.

awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 08:17
However, being a music lover first, and a hi-fi nut second, and always on the lookout for new stuff, my physical music collection (especially on vinyl) is only likely to increase, as I still much prefer owing the music software I have, and for it to have an intrinsic value, both in a monetary and emotional sense, rather than a 'faceless/worthless file' - or not even that with Spotify!

For me, CD is defo on its way out, and vinyl is only destined to become more and more popular, for various reasons, not least of which is that it's cool, and allows you to 'connect' with music on a totally different level, compared with streaming :cool:

Marco.
This was my point. If a CD is just carrying the music, then I will buy the download instead (assuming there is that choice). But the beautifully produced book(let) with pictures and a history made me pay extra for the extra, so to speak. Of the 20 albums I've bought (OK, some were free!) on Bandcamp, this is the only one where I have actually bought the CD! I would have paid extra for the Zoe Keating CD, for the same reason, but the postage from the US doubled the price. So I didn't.
Unlike an LP, there is no pleasure in handling a CD, so I wondered if books or artwork could be a way to survive. It has worked for me in this instance, but of course the kora is photogenic, and the story interests me too. But only if I can read the writing!

struth
29-09-2015, 08:24
Might go the way of vinyl, its hard to predict but vinyl came back from the dead and cd might do likewise if that happens. Streaming services seem to be coming popular these days but they may have their limits as may broadband carriers. The benefit may be that eventully cds may regain their value

awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 08:26
unless you are one of the tiny minority in your age group who have got on the vinyl bandwagon. There is no CD bandwagon, that's why it will soon be finished.
But there wasn't an vinyl bandwagon until someone started it! It was just a funny old fashioned thing your parents had. Agreed, CDs haven't built up a history in the same way; how many would remember their first one? But the vinyl revival came about by accident; CDs would need a push, so could this "added value" be that push? Bear in mind that playing LPs requires quite an investment in hardware and space, CDs won't, especially with laptops and earphones.
If marketed well, I CAN imagine a future for them.
So there.

DarrenHW
29-09-2015, 09:06
But "they" are spending serious money on headphones. http://www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk/Headphones/Headphones/Headphones/range.html And they show up how bad some of the choons can sound....

From personal experience I know a large percentage of headphones purchased by the iPod generation are purely fashion accessories, it's both hip and sic to sport a big pair of cans.

Reffc
29-09-2015, 09:07
CDs will be about and continue to be manufactured until CD-ROM drives for computers are no longer manufactured, then economies of scale will mean its not worth anyone's while to produce them cheaply. Boutique brands may continue but no-one will pay what they cost. I'd say there's still ife in the format yet and I prefer CDs to downloading music. My drive which I had hi-res music downloads stored on became corrupted and I lost the lot. I wont bother with that or streaming again, because the goal posts keep moving and its a PITA as far as longer term reliability is concerned, or at least it seems that way to me, plus I couldn't be nothered with a laptop (or the extra expense) or an Ipod interface. For me, it takes a lot away from the enjoyment to have to fart around with computers when I simply want to put a record on. At least with CD/vinyl, you know what you're getting and as long as you look after them, they'll last decades.

Marco
29-09-2015, 09:35
But there wasn't an vinyl bandwagon until someone started it!


Indeed, and I don't buy the notion that it was started solely by hipsters, following the latest trend. The current vinyl revival (no matter how small in real terms) goes much deeper than that.

My view is that people, sooner or later, once having swallowed marketing hype and/or had their lifestyle choices dictated by trends (if they're that type), eventually 'see the light' and embrace the use of what is intrinsically good, which is why all the best things from bygone eras continually make an appearance in the modern world, simply because they were very good at what they did in the first place and haven't *really* been replaced!

And vinyl records are like that, the enjoyment of which appeals to human nature and music lovers on many different levels. Essentially, quality always floats to the surface, whilst what is fundamentally inferior drowns and eventually dies.

Marco.

struth
29-09-2015, 09:39
Indeed, and I don't buy the notion that it was started solely by hipsters, following the latest trend. The vinyl revival (no matter how small in real terms) goes much deeper than that.

My view is that people, sooner or later, once having swallowed marketing hype and/or had their lifestyle choices dictated by trends (if they're that type), eventually 'see the light' and embrace the use of what is intrinsically good, which is why all the best things from bygone eras continually make an appearance in the modern world, simply because they were very good at what they did in the first place, and haven't *really* been replaced!

And vinyl records are like that, the enjoyment of which appeals to human nature and music lovers on many different levels. Essentially, quality always floats to the surface, whilst what is fundamentally inferior drowns and eventually dies.

Marco.

You dont get the same feedback fondling a cd case....its like a blowup doll instead of a living breathing person........I would, er, imagine:eyebrows::

Marco
29-09-2015, 09:55
Lol - well, you're the expert there, sweetheart, especially at puncturing them! :D ;)

Sometimes in life convenience triumphs over quality, but quality will always prevail and have the greater longevity, which is why vinyl records have never fully died, as the product is intrinsically 'right'.

CD *will* eventually die, simply because (as merely a carrier of digital music), and unlike vinyl, it has no USP. Therefore, as Paul has outlined, when it becomes no longer cost effective for the major players in the industry to continue producing CD-ROM drives, and given that those who want to receive music digitally, will do so via streaming, CD will slowly die a death.

I have no doubt about that whatsoever. The only thing in doubt is the timescale involved. In that respect, I'd give CD another 10 years, tops!

Marco.

awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 10:13
You dont get the same feedback fondling a cd case....its like a blowup doll instead of a living breathing person........I would, er, imagine:eyebrows::

Exactly. But the book, that came with a CD inside it, felt good. And smelt good too, newly printed on quality paper. The smell will go but the memory won't.
Well, actually it might; my memory IS starting to go! :(

struth
29-09-2015, 10:36
Exactly. But the book, that came with a CD inside it, felt good. And smelt good too, newly printed on quality paper. The smell will go but the memory won't.
Well, actually it might; my memory IS starting to go! :(

I have to write things down now

Roy S
29-09-2015, 10:48
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-31gaiWIuid0/VGaTU75d6tI/AAAAAAAA8b8/IYuw7n1XAV4/s1600/512bceefafa96f0a5300024f.jpg

Marco
29-09-2015, 10:52
You oldies, what are you like! :D

Marco.

walpurgis
29-09-2015, 10:54
You oldies, what are you like! :D

Marco.

I have to put on my glasses, so I can find my reading glasses, before I can write anything. :lol:

Macca
29-09-2015, 11:07
I don't think including a fancy booklet is going to save CD. As someone else remarked the tiny writing is a pain to read for those of us who won't see forty again.

Have to say I have not bothered reading the liner notes (on any format) since I was a kid and it was all fresh and new to me.

walpurgis
29-09-2015, 11:16
Have to say I have not bothered reading the liner notes (on any format) since I was a kid

Same here. I don't read album or CD covers. It tells me nothing about whether I'll enjoy the music.

Joe
29-09-2015, 11:18
But there wasn't an vinyl bandwagon until someone started it! It was just a funny old fashioned thing your parents had. Agreed, CDs haven't built up a history in the same way; how many would remember their first one?

Me. It was 'Floored Genius' by the mighty Julian Cope & The Teardrop Explodes, and I bought it at an HMV shop near Central Station in Liverpool. It's also the only CD I own with serious tracking problems; the last two tracks are unplayable.

Marco
29-09-2015, 11:27
I have to put on my glasses, so I can find my reading glasses, before I can write anything. :lol:

Hehehe... Yes, I've observed friends having to do that - and some of them younger than me, too. Thankfully, so far, my eyesight (and hearing in particular) are pretty good, so no glasses for me yet. That could change quickly, though!

Marco.

walpurgis
29-09-2015, 11:34
Hehehe... Yes, I've observed friends having to do that - and some of them younger than me, too. Thankfully, so far, my eyesight (and hearing in particular) are pretty good, so no glasses for me yet. That could change quickly, though!

Marco.

It'll get you eventually Marco. My eyesight was outstanding until I reached forty, then suddenly went bad. Funny thing is, my brother who's 77 is OK and only uses glasses for small print.

struth
29-09-2015, 11:36
My eyes went pretty much overnight...well nearly and always had 20 20 before that. Dunno why it happened.. Actually thought my pc etc was faulty initially

Marco
29-09-2015, 11:42
It'll get you eventually Marco. My eyesight was outstanding until I reached forty, then suddenly went bad. Funny thing is, my brother who's 77 is OK and only uses glasses for small print.

Yup, no doubt, although my dad (at 83) has still got pretty good eyesight. He uses glasses, for sure, for most things (although not ones with very strong lenses), but can still split matchsticks, repeatedly, with an air rifle at 45 yards!

Yes, we enjoy going shooting together :)

Marco.

Jimbo
29-09-2015, 11:48
I think when you start wearing glasses your eyesight deteriorates quicker as it relies on the glasses to take the strain which means your eyes are not working as hard. The muscle or optics become lazy and then rely on glasses to focus. Just my theory:)

Marco
29-09-2015, 11:48
My eyes went pretty much overnight...well nearly and always had 20 20 before that. Dunno why it happened.. Actually thought my pc etc was faulty initially

Staring at computer screens, for long periods of time, certainly doesn't help. The telling thing for me, in terms of judging my eyesight against that of others, younger or older than me, is when going to someone's house, using their computer, and seeing what magnification their screens are set at.

Most of the time, for me, the size of the text appears as if I'm looking through a huge magnifying glass, which is rather disconcerting! :eek:

The setting I use at home is usually considerably lower. What I have found, however, is that my ability to read accurately in low-light conditions is not as good as it was, and so consequently have to put on the light (or if there is still daylight available) go outside to see very small print, which I can then read no problem, without the use of glasses.

Other than that, my eyesight is fine, and is the second strongest of my senses :)

Marco.

Marco
29-09-2015, 11:54
I think when you start wearing glasses your eyesight deteriorates quicker as it relies on the glasses to take the strain which means your eyes are not working as hard. The muscle or optics become lazy and then rely on glasses to focus. Just my theory:)

I think there's probably something in that. Much of how good your eyesight is, however, is down to hereditary factors. Chances are, if your parents suffered from bad eyesight, then so will you, or vice versa.

Marco.

mikmas
29-09-2015, 12:16
I think when you start wearing glasses your eyesight deteriorates quicker as it relies on the glasses to take the strain which means your eyes are not working as hard. The muscle or optics become lazy and then rely on glasses to focus. Just my theory:)

No just theory - actual fact :)
I first went to get my eyes tested in my late 30s - I was having trouble at work reading millimetres on technical drawings. The eye doc had to put some drops in my eyes to relax the optic muscles so he could get an accurate prescription. Apparently they distort the eyeball to compensate for any aberrations and mine were working overtime ... as you get older the muscles get less able to do this. Most opticians will 'wean' you off gradually until you get more or less the full spec over the years but this one didn't believe in messing about.

StanleyB
29-09-2015, 12:50
I have been wearing glasses since 1973 and my prescription has hardly changed in that time.

Going back to the discussion on CD: I had more or less stopped listening to CD for quite some time. But after I started playing about with data derived clock timing codes for the firmware in you know what, and started doing comparisons between the before and after, I started to realize that there was a lot more info in a CD that I could not recover through ripping. Maybe it is a combination of noise in the ripping process. Maybe the ripper is not as good as I had thought. But whatever the reason for it is, I cannot get an equal or better sound from a ripped CD, compared to playing the actual CD.

lurcher
29-09-2015, 12:57
No just theory - actual fact :)
I first went to get my eyes tested in my late 30s - I was having trouble at work reading millimetres on technical drawings. The eye doc had to put some drops in my eyes to relax the optic muscles so he could get an accurate prescription. Apparently they distort the eyeball to compensate for any aberrations and mine were working overtime ... as you get older the muscles get less able to do this. Most opticians will 'wean' you off gradually until you get more or less the full spec over the years but this one didn't believe in messing about.

Err, not a theory just an opinion, and I think you would find asking a optician that its incorrect. The optic muscles are used just as much as normal when wearing corrective lenses, all the lenses do is allow the muscles to operate over their full range of movement. Without lenses the muscles are continuously at one end of their range of travel, so actually move less without the glasses.

Opticians relax the muscles to find the eye's current "zero" position without the feedback system the muscles provide trying to correct for the problem the optician is trying to measure.

Just the same as if I am trying to fix a problem in an amp with feedback, the first thing I do is remove the feedback to see what the amp is doing without its error correction fighting back.

mikmas
29-09-2015, 13:33
Err, not a theory just an opinion, and I think you would find asking a optician that its incorrect.

Cool ... I'll tell the qualified physician who explained it to me at that time (although I imagine he's long dead...)

awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 13:45
I don't think including a fancy booklet is going to save CD. As someone else remarked the tiny writing is a pain to read for those of us who won't see forty again.

Have to say I have not bothered reading the liner notes (on any format) since I was a kid and it was all fresh and new to me.

The booklet doesn't HAVE tiny writing! Mind you, you have to be able to read.......:ner:

awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 13:49
I have to put on my glasses, so I can find my reading glasses, before I can write anything. :lol:

My wife just said "Do you tap your head first?" To see if they are on the top of it, not just checking the echo!

Clive197
29-09-2015, 14:23
I can honestly say that my glasses do not make my cd's sound better. LOL

CD's will stay for as long as people want to buy them. When they stop being manufactured, small stalls in the Portabello Road (and the equivalent in your local town/city/village) will still be flogging them. Antique shops will have players for us to collect and the local wiz kid will dust off the soldering-iron to keep it going. Cottage industries will flourish.

Seriously, there will always be a physical media for us to drool over, it may not be silver coloured discs but it will always be a tactile product with the our music stored on it.

Of coarse we will all be dead and AoL will be a distant memory. Judgement Day is coming.

Macca
29-09-2015, 14:35
I. Judgement Day is coming.

The apocalypse will be available as a 320/mbps download...

(if your download fails please wait a minute and re-try when the server is less busy)

Marco
29-09-2015, 14:47
Of coarse we will all be dead and AoL will be a distant memory. Judgement Day is coming.

AOL might be, but AoS will always be here, as long as I remain immortal! :D

Marco.

lurcher
29-09-2015, 14:54
Cool ... I'll tell the qualified physician who explained it to me at that time (although I imagine he's long dead...)

Bad quoting on my part, it was the "The muscle or optics become lazy and then rely on glasses to focus. Just my theory" part I was commenting on.

StanleyB
29-09-2015, 15:03
Even the humble floppy disk is still in use today. You won't find it in a modern day PC, but they are still being bought and sold. So I don't expect the CD to vanish just like that either.

awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 15:13
I can honestly say that my glasses do not make my cd's sound better. LOL
Well, no, they make them sound worse. There is some evidence* that pressure changes on the eyes contribute to the overall sound. Quite apart from any blocking or reflecting of the sound by the glasses.
* Just let it go, alright? Yes, you!

awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 15:23
Oh, by the way, can a mod edit the title of this thread? I've just noticed I can't spell future! :doh:

struth
29-09-2015, 15:47
Title amended

Audio Advent
29-09-2015, 17:37
Well, no, they make them sound worse. There is some evidence* that pressure changes on the eyes contribute to the overall sound. Quite apart from any blocking or reflecting of the sound by the glasses.
* Just let it go, alright? Yes, you!

The low frequencies effecting the liquid in your eyeballs will pass straight through the glasses and more likely move them too in unison with your eyeballs. 18Hz makes your eyes resonate and makes you think you've seen a misty ghost move in your peripheral vision and the disorientation give you cold sweats - is the discovered explanation for a few "hauntings" where it was just some mechanical equipment vibrating the room.

Audio Advent
29-09-2015, 17:58
The space thing has nothing to do with it. 200 CDs will fit in a small box, I mean how small is your flat if you don't have room for that? My room at college was about 6' by 10' - I had several hundred LPs and maybe a hundred cassette tapes and you could still get in the door with no problem.

It does have a lot to do with it. If you're going to have books, you kind of need shelves (ok, often just piled on the floor) - one piece of furniture extra. Vinyl = record player plus phono stage/integrated amp and speakers AND shelves too and a few hundred kgs of vinyl to move. CDs = CD player plus the other hifi and boxes of CDs getting damaged. DVDs = DVD player plus a tv. etc etc To justify having those physical formats you've got almost a whole new van/estate car worth of stuff to go with it.

If you're going to cut out the DVD player and CD player and use your PC then what's the point of keeping the CDs and DVDs when you can just have them on your harddrive? Away goes the tv too because maybe there's a communal one.. Get rid of the hifi and vinyl and all you need is a pair of amplified speakers. You still have all the music you need and all the fidelity you need via good amped speakers..

Once space constraints and hassle moving it all each time starts you off in a certain direction of thinking then people tend to follow through and travel light so to speak.. and feel better for it.

I'm in a different boat in that I rent off family so my space is fairly secure... hence my ablility to endulge in hifi and physical formats.

Theadmans
29-09-2015, 18:09
I have been using a Squeezebox Touch for a few years now. I have a nearly full 4TB drive packed with about 8000 albums to listen to.

The Squeezebox sounds great through my Bushmaster II DAC and Musical Fidelity X10D tube stage.

However, I keep a Pioneer PD-S705 Stable Platter CD Player as a backup in case of Broadband outages, PC problems etc

Nevertheless, I continue to buy CDs to rip for my Squeezebox to play.

The reason I do this is that a lot of my favourite music predates the late 90s (when the Loudness wars kicked in).

By buying 1980s and early 1990s mastered CDs I can listen to music mastered with some Dynamic Range.

If I relied on streaming or downloads there would be no way of picking the Mastering I want - CDs provide me this option.

I suspect that in years to come more people will recognize this critical factor. What is the point in spending £1000's on Hi-Fi only to play the latest Brickwalled mastering from a download or stream ?

Macca
30-09-2015, 07:54
.

The reason I do this is that a lot of my favourite music predates the late 90s (when the Loudness wars kicked in).

By buying 1980s and early 1990s mastered CDs I can listen to music mastered with some Dynamic Range.

If I relied on streaming or downloads there would be no way of picking the Mastering I want - CDs provide me this option.

I suspect that in years to come more people will recognize this critical factor. What is the point in spending £1000's on Hi-Fi only to play the latest Brickwalled mastering from a download or stream ?

A very good point. I tend to buy used CDs rather than brand new in order to get the older digital masterings - which wern't really re-mastered at all they just cued up the tape and pressed record - rather than the newer 'versions'. For example I have a fancy 24 bit remaster of 'Abraxas' and, frankly, they've ruined it.

Clive197
30-09-2015, 10:16
AOL might be, but AoS will always be here, as long as I remain immortal! :D

Marco.

Oops! I meant AoS, must have had a senior moment, or the machine has started to take over. :eek:

awkwardbydesign
01-10-2015, 17:53
Now here's a thing. I've just spoken to my 17 year old grandson, who is into rap and hip hop ( his favourite artist is Kanye West!), and he would rather buy a CD, with a book, than download! He does download, including getting them for free if he can, but he actually likes the artwork you can get with a book. And the new book smell.
:pat:
So maybe there is hope after all.

Us-&-Them
01-10-2015, 19:20
The future of CD for me will be permanent !!!!

Downloads = no physical substance.

Downloads = reliance on a storage device (HD (which as probably most computer owners know all too well - isnt reliable) a disc of some kind (disc rot) a CD/DVD/Blu-Ray reader (the lasers keep packing up or they cant read a certain type of disc). Lose your storage medium - you lose all your music so, you gotta buy it all again!!! Yes, I know, you're all gonna chuck the shot yourself in the foot argument about the lasers packing up; I'll have to live with that argument!!!

Downloads = the cost of downloading from iTunes is disgusting. (a CD can be bought cheaper than the cost of a downloaded album).

Downloads = music has just become a throwaway commodity; in fact, its like music has become worthless and as such, artists/art are less relavent!!!

Downloads = can be corrupted.

Vinyl - I like vinyl (except for nicks/scratches etc which is its Achilles heel) and I like the full size artwork :) and the full sound spectrum of it!!!

CD = marvellous!!!! Doesnt suffer from a lot of the previous problems, only niggle is storage/space but, you could say that about vinyl yet, its having a total resurrgance in popularity so the argument about storage/space (of CD's) cant be that much of a problem to all these new afficianados can it?? If I need to play/rip the CD again, no probs - its physically there and the silver genuine discs amazingly dont appear to suffer disc rot like the CD-r's !!!!!! :scratch:

Perfect sound everytime - Yeah, that sounds like a good idea - I'll stick with that !! :ner::D Unless anyone else can see the stupidity of it :mental:

struth
01-10-2015, 19:26
I dont buy downloads....it's a "rip-off" :doh:

Us-&-Them
01-10-2015, 19:54
I dont buy downloads....it's a "rip-off" :doh:

Well, there's another one in agreement with me :)

Cheers Grant - I guess you can see the "full pounds and pence picture" of downloads like me. CD's are for idiots mate!! ;) :lol:

I also just noticed the little caption under my name on here "Senior Member." Oh God, that makes me feel "so good" :eek:

Stratmangler
01-10-2015, 20:46
If I need to play/rip the CD again, no probs - its physically there and the silver genuine discs amazingly dont appear to suffer disc rot like the CD-r's !!!!!! :scratch:

You've been very fortunate then, because the disc rot issues I mentioned earlier in the thread were concerning genuine shop bought albums.
They're not as permanent as you'd like to think.
I've always handled CDs the same way as I handle vinyl too - very carefully, so mishandling the discs is not the source of the problem.

struth
01-10-2015, 20:51
Ive seen some cds with disc rot and it was nasty but its not a wholesale problem and most are unaffected. Ive never had one in my collection go that way either so I ve been lucky too

Stratmangler
01-10-2015, 21:05
I've lost a couple to CD rot - all the discs were made at PDO in Blackburn, and the rot was noticed after the disc replacement scheme had closed down (PDO had found and rectified manufacturing issues, and had a stockpile of no quibble replacements), so a bit unlucky there.

I think the other problems I've had with discs in more recent years has to do with the stability of the polycarbonate, and its gradual increase in opacity.
Put another way, if I try to rip these discs using EAC or dBPoweramp I get a lot of errors and insecure rips.
And in some cases they've only been played once, and that's to rip them in the first place.

Us-&-Them
01-10-2015, 21:24
You've been very fortunate then, because the disc rot issues I mentioned earlier in the thread were concerning genuine shop bought albums.
They're not as permanent as you'd like to think.
I've always handled CDs the same way as I handle vinyl too - very carefully, so mishandling the discs is not the source of the problem.

Actually, I hadn't read your post in this thread and, as such, my comment wasn't directed at you or your post :) I have never had a genuine silver disc fail on me since their introduction in 1983/4 !!!! I guess you've been very unfortunate :(

Spectral Morn
01-10-2015, 22:39
You've been very fortunate then, because the disc rot issues I mentioned earlier in the thread were concerning genuine shop bought albums.
They're not as permanent as you'd like to think.
I've always handled CDs the same way as I handle vinyl too - very carefully, so mishandling the discs is not the source of the problem.

Definitely a real problem, but so far - please God - only three in my entire collection have rot issues, two singles, one album. If I recall right PDO are the problem presser, with rot issues.


Regards Neil

walpurgis
01-10-2015, 22:45
I believe this is only a problem with old CDs that have a cellulose based lacquer film. Later CDs using a polymer based finish.

I do have a few 'rusty' CDs and they date from around 1983 or thereabouts. They seem to play OK though.

awkwardbydesign
01-10-2015, 23:23
I dont buy downloads....it's a "rip-off" :doh:
:D I'm just about to buy a download! https://vieuxfarkatourjuliaeasterlin.bandcamp.com/album/touristes

struth
01-10-2015, 23:30
Never heard of them lol

Macca
02-10-2015, 08:52
The disc rot thing is a non-issue. It was one PDO plant way back in the late 1980s. I've never had a single disc suffer. I have a couple that have needed a clean before the player will read them (by 'clean' I mean a gentle rub with the sleeve of my sweatshirt).

If the disc reads and plays then it is effectively perfect, the error correction will take care of any minor read flaws, that is what it is there for. It doesn't affect the sound quality at all.

awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 09:23
If the disc reads and plays then it is effectively perfect, the error correction will take care of any minor read flaws, that is what it is there for. It doesn't affect the sound quality at all.
If my memory is working (doubtful), doesn't overworked error correction affect the sound? Interpolating music into gaps just being one possibly audible effect?

Macca
02-10-2015, 09:26
Error correction doesn't affect the sound. It isn't 'music' that is being corrected, just the waveform i.e an electrical signal. It's not music until it reaches your ears. :)

awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 09:52
Never heard of them lol

I am infamous in my family for being a late-adopter. I wouldn't have a video recorder for years, CDs similarly, and mobile phones. My wife had a computer for about 5 years before I even learnt how to turn it on!
But I decided to try to drag myself into the late 20th century (in the early 21st century!), and when a Squeezebox Duet was offered at an affordable price I bought it. I now have over 1000 CDs ripped to a NAS (and no, I have never experienced CD rot) plus listening to new stuff on t'interwebs opens new worlds. Discogs, Amazon and others (particularly Bandcamp at the mo; I'll probably get over it eventually), enable me to listen first. I usually buy the CD, but unless there is "added value" I often buy the download.
There is an initial expense in hardware if you are into hifi, but not really if you listen through a laptop, like my grandson. And back to him, he brought round a Kanye West CD he had bought; it's shiny gold, embossed, folds out and is an impressive object. And that seems to be the point- it's a physical object. I will have to ask him what it cost.
http://cdn.pitchfork.com/news/43173/6f64b86e.jpg

Us-&-Them
02-10-2015, 11:05
I now have over 1000 CDs ripped to a NAS (and no, I have never experienced CD rot) plus listening to new stuff on t'interwebs opens new worlds.
............ And back to him, he brought round a Kanye West CD he had bought; it's shiny gold, embossed, folds out and is an impressive object. And that seems to be the point- it's a physical object. I will have to ask him what it cost.


Sorta clarifies my point; when its a physical medium, it kinda makes it more worthwhile, it has a meaning , a purpose, a value!!! Downloads are effectively just nothing !!!

My Scorpions CD just arrived from Japan. Lovely packaging/detail and that essential OBI strip - plus its a great CD. :) If I bought it via download - boring, nothing there, soul-less. Get the laptop out and play it................ what the F*<k????

Nah!!!! Give me the CD - Permanent!!!

struth
02-10-2015, 11:12
I am infamous in my family for being a late-adopter. I wouldn't have a video recorder for years, CDs similarly, and mobile phones. My wife had a computer for about 5 years before I even learnt how to turn it on!
But I decided to try to drag myself into the late 20th century (in the early 21st century!), and when a Squeezebox Duet was offered at an affordable price I bought it. I now have over 1000 CDs ripped to a NAS (and no, I have never experienced CD rot) plus listening to new stuff on t'interwebs opens new worlds. Discogs, Amazon and others (particularly Bandcamp at the mo; I'll probably get over it eventually), enable me to listen first. I usually buy the CD, but unless there is "added value" I often buy the download.
There is an initial expense in hardware if you are into hifi, but not really if you listen through a laptop, like my grandson. And back to him, he brought round a Kanye West CD he had bought; it's shiny gold, embossed, folds out and is an impressive object. And that seems to be the point- it's a physical object. I will have to ask him what it cost.
http://cdn.pitchfork.com/news/43173/6f64b86e.jpg

Its certainly a work of beauty...the case i mean. Good ti see he is bucking the trend re physical media. A chunk of my cds are ripped to flac. Most of my blues stuff isnt though..like to use physical media for that...its a connection thing I think. As is my vinyl which i decided not to convert and leave as it was designed. My son likes cds...my daughter probably doesnt have any.. She laughs when she sees a big black disc coming out

Us-&-Them
02-10-2015, 11:59
Its certainly a work of beauty...the case i mean. Good ti see he is bucking the trend re physical media. A chunk of my cds are ripped to flac. Most of my blues stuff isnt though..like to use physical media for that...its a connection thing I think. As is my vinyl which i decided not to convert and leave as it was designed. My son likes cds...my daughter probably doesnt have any.. She laughs when she sees a big black disc coming out

I have to admit, all of my CD's are ripped to FLAC & MP3 (for my portable) but I still have them on CD for playing when at home :D Some of my vinyl isnt available on any other medium so I have recorded them onto CD for permanent scratchless version and in the car. Also, vinyl is nice to play on the T/T now and then :)

Its always CD 4 Me !!!! :)

Audio Advent
02-10-2015, 13:41
You've been very fortunate then, because the disc rot issues I mentioned earlier in the thread were concerning genuine shop bought albums.
They're not as permanent as you'd like to think.
I've always handled CDs the same way as I handle vinyl too - very carefully, so mishandling the discs is not the source of the problem.

I've never had any disc rot problems either. I must be lucky too.

I think you'll going to find that everyone has been very very lucky whilst you and a very small number will be experiencing "the norm"..

Audio Advent
02-10-2015, 13:45
The future of CD for me will be permanent !!!!

Downloads = no physical substance.

Downloads = reliance on a storage device (HD (which as probably most computer owners know all too well - isnt reliable) a disc of some kind (disc rot) a CD/DVD/Blu-Ray reader (the lasers keep packing up or they cant read a certain type of disc). Lose your storage medium - you lose all your music so, you gotta buy it all again!!! Yes, I know, you're all gonna chuck the shot yourself in the foot argument about the lasers packing up; I'll have to live with that argument!!!

Downloads = the cost of downloading from iTunes is disgusting. (a CD can be bought cheaper than the cost of a downloaded album).

Downloads = music has just become a throwaway commodity; in fact, its like music has become worthless and as such, artists/art are less relavent!!!

Downloads = can be corrupted.

Vinyl - I like vinyl (except for nicks/scratches etc which is its Achilles heel) and I like the full size artwork :) and the full sound spectrum of it!!!

CD = marvellous!!!! Doesnt suffer from a lot of the previous problems, only niggle is storage/space but, you could say that about vinyl yet, its having a total resurrgance in popularity so the argument about storage/space (of CD's) cant be that much of a problem to all these new afficianados can it?? If I need to play/rip the CD again, no probs - its physically there and the silver genuine discs amazingly dont appear to suffer disc rot like the CD-r's !!!!!! :scratch:

Perfect sound everytime - Yeah, that sounds like a good idea - I'll stick with that !! :ner::D Unless anyone else can see the stupidity of it :mental:

Add to that :

Downloads = your licence to use that download can be revoked at any time!

Amazon has done precisely that with e-books on a Kindle - erasing all the books of a user who they deemed had violated Amazon's terms of service. It would be difficult without some iTunes like service in control of your downloads and synced devices but the licence can definately be revoked and therefore end up illegal to play your paid-for downloads.

CD = a scratched CD can be pollished back to "as new" 2 or 3 times in it's lifetime.

Audio Advent
02-10-2015, 13:50
Now here's a thing. I've just spoken to my 17 year old grandson, who is into rap and hip hop ( his favourite artist is Kanye West!), and he would rather buy a CD, with a book, than download! He does download, including getting them for free if he can, but he actually likes the artwork you can get with a book. And the new book smell.
:pat:
So maybe there is hope after all.

Me too! (can I have a pat?)

I don't understand people who say CD artwork is worthless and akin to a piece of dog dirt smeared across the plastic case... in comparison to their beloved vinyl gatefolds.

There are some lack-luster vinyl covers and there are some lack-luster CD booklets. When they are done well, both AND cassette pull-outs, are an extension of the artist and all part of the album feel and vibe. Much vinyl is just the most basic cover with a plain inner - most CDs at least have a fold-out booklet.

I think there are just a few too many people with eyesight problems hating that they can't see stuff. Perhaps they have the same feeling towards any books not in large print? :lol:

Audio Advent
02-10-2015, 13:54
:D I'm just about to buy a download! https://vieuxfarkatourjuliaeasterlin.bandcamp.com/album/touristes

For just about £1.30 more you can have both the CD AND the download plus unlimited streaming via bandcamp app. (Ok, there's postage involved). I'd go for that personally.

awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 14:24
Add to that :

Downloads = your licence to use that download can be revoked at any time!


I'm not sure if that is completely true. If I download the music, from Bandcamp in my case, and save it to a hard-drive, is it still subject to a licence? It's not via iTunes or similar, but a direct purchase (from the artist in many cases).


For just about £1.30 more you can have both the CD AND the download plus unlimited streaming via bandcamp app. (Ok, there's postage involved). I'd go for that personally.
And the postage can cost as much as the CD! That's why I didn't buy the Zoe Keating CD, despite wanting the artwork.
BTW, my grandson got the Kanye West CD for Christmas. He asked for it, and thinks it cost about £15 (it's £16.56 from Amazon).

awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 14:40
Me too! (can I have a pat?)

I don't understand people who say CD artwork is worthless and akin to a piece of dog dirt smeared across the plastic case... in comparison to their beloved vinyl gatefolds.

There are some lack-luster vinyl covers and there are some lack-luster CD booklets. When they are done well, both AND cassette pull-outs, are an extension of the artist and all part of the album feel and vibe. Much vinyl is just the most basic cover with a plain inner - most CDs at least have a fold-out booklet.

I think there are just a few too many people with eyesight problems hating that they can't see stuff. Perhaps they have the same feeling towards any books not in large print? :lol:

No you can't, you're too old! :donk:
The writing on leaflets in jewel cases is frequently too small to read*, but a proper book can address that. In fact I think selling CDs in a Digipak (at the minimum) or a book would make them more attractive all by itself. Is there anyone who doesn't hate jewel cases? Why do they still exist? Are they cheaper to make? Do they pack more easily? Do they display better in shop browsers? The centre "fingers" always seem to break, often before they are opened, and can scratch the CD; Digipaks often have just 4 fingers, which are stronger, they don't have plastic hinges that break either.
* Several years ago in Manchester my wife and I parked in a council carpark at dusk; the parking info on the meter was printed in black on red. We had to wait for someone younger to arrive and read it to us! :doh:

awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 15:01
I've just emailed Bandcamp and asked them if I own the downloads, like a CD or LP. Can I give it to someone else, as long as I don't keep a copy?
I await a reply.

awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 15:52
On pfm just now (I know, I should get out more), this came up. http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/sep/06/imogen-heap-saviour-of-music-industry
I haven't read it all yet, it's too long, but it's thought provoking and relevant to this thread. If downloads become more controlled, will CDs become more attractive? And curiously, an artist I have recently discovered on Bandcamp (Zoe Keating), is involved too!

struth
02-10-2015, 15:53
Theres been so much changes in these laws that i doubt you will get a definate answer. In books its a licence to you in its current form. Amazon i remember removed a book from my list once and i got no refund as they were allowed to do it. There was a lawsuit in the states re when you die do the ebooks etc become part of your estate or do they revert to the company you downloaded them from... I have not heard the outcome yet.

awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 16:26
Theres been so much changes in these laws that i doubt you will get a definate answer. In books its a licence to you in its current form. Amazon i remember removed a book from my list once and i got no refund as they were allowed to do it. There was a lawsuit in the states re when you die do the ebooks etc become part of your estate or do they revert to the company you downloaded them from... I have not heard the outcome yet.
Aren't ebooks downloaded to a Kindle or similar? Not a folder on your computer hard drive? That is a different thing, I think. And hope!
I've also emailed Zoe Keating directly with the same question. If she owns the rights to the music, as I would expect, can she make her own decisions? Bandcamp is just the middleman.

struth
02-10-2015, 16:37
they can go on your pc as a folder too. its called my kindle books. It has a drm in it so as to stop anyone using it in a reader or reading app other than one of theirs ;) Most of the big e book retailers use this drm to enforce you to use their equipment and thus allows them to have full control over it assuming you are connected to the interweb. Like most things though there I am sure , ways of getting round this. Personally I think they have a cheek

walpurgis
02-10-2015, 17:13
I'm sure somebody will have a DRM hack somewhere. Just about everything does. You'll probably get extradited by the FBI for using it though :D.

Audio Advent
02-10-2015, 17:54
I'm sure somebody will have a DRM hack somewhere. Just about everything does. You'll probably get extradited by the FBI for using it though :D.

I'm sure I've heard of suits claiming that hacking DRM is an offense, just like people hacking the hardware they own for other uses have been prosecuted. Whether it is civil only I'm not sure. Normally I read about these things on www.Techdirt.com

struth
02-10-2015, 18:05
I'm sure somebody will have a DRM hack somewhere. Just about everything does. You'll probably get extradited by the FBI for using it though :D.

Its amazing the amount of ebooks you can get for nothing though in epub format that are on sale in places like Amazon at high prices. I just picked up 5 good book all free... the deciever by fredrick forsyth and 4 from andrew marr... a history of 20th century britain, history of the world, battle for scotland and history of modern britain; and that was really without trying. they are out there if you look;)

Theadmans
02-10-2015, 18:22
I have around 8000 Cds (all ripped to my external hard drives for play on my Squeezebox Touch).

The original Cds are all stored in lovely 1980s vintage Laura Ashley cabinets in my lounge.

Out of of that 8000 I have precisely 2 titles affected by disc rot :-

Jimi Hendrix "Electric Ladyland" Fatboy 2CD made in W.Germany

...and Nick Drake "Pink Moon" original Island CD mastered by PDO Blackburn.

Both discs sets continue to play on my Pioneer PD-S705 stable platter CD Player but are safely ripped anyways.

The first CD discs I bought circa 1984 Kraftwerk German Import CDs continue to play 100% (after 31 years) !!

awkwardbydesign
06-10-2015, 07:40
Aren't ebooks downloaded to a Kindle or similar? Not a folder on your computer hard drive? That is a different thing, I think. And hope!
I've also emailed Zoe Keating directly with the same question. If she owns the rights to the music, as I would expect, can she make her own decisions? Bandcamp is just the middleman.

Bandcamp replied, saying they just have limited distribution rights, so I need to contact the artists directly. As I have already done that, I hope for a reply from Zoe Keating. I may try another artist, or their agent.

Audio Advent
08-10-2015, 20:24
hehe.. I'm sure they've never thought about it before and probably don't know what you're asking.

Good to know that Bandcamp have no say over what goes on so is just up to the artists (whom I'd tend to trust). It's the likes of Amazon and iTunes I'd not trust.

If it were me, I'd say "hey do what you want with it non-commercially, share it with friends etc but I do require that you point them to my bandcamp page on each share as a requirement of your licence and tell them they can donate if they like and sign up for future release notifications" and have a 'donate to the artist' option on the page plus an email subcription form.

awkwardbydesign
17-10-2015, 23:49
A little update. My wife and I have just got back from Seckou Keita's performance in Dartmouth. Brilliant performance, and of course he had CDs to sell after the gig. They were very popular, and several people bought more than one. In fact I saw one woman with two copies of his latest, 22 Strings; presumably one for a friend.
And there's a future for CDs, especially added value ones; merchandise at concerts! You can't really sell downloads at a gig, but CDs (and LPs too) are something you can take home with you. I bought an earlier CD and got it signed. Try that with a download!