To Garrard 301/401 or Thorens TD124mk 2, that is the question ?

[Spectral Morn]

I have an itch, a Garrard or Thorens shaped one but I am unsure whether to scratch it or not.

My existing main vinyl playback is via an SME Model 20/Graham Phantom tonearm or a recently upgraded Oracle Delphi turntable, now a mk 4/5/6 upon which an SME 5 tonearm is to be found. My ongoing Technics experiments also continue - though they are coming to an end - via a couple of 1200/1210s with all the usual suspects re arms, PSUs, bearings platters etc. I have a Triplanar mk 7 Ultimate tonearm still to be used which I thought about fitting to the Delphi (have a suitable armboard) and currently have fitted to a Technics 1210 turntable (not tried yet), so that arm could be tried on an idler.

So the question is, and I would propose to use modern arms not vintage, nor vintage carts, is it worthwhile giving an idler in the shape of those mentioned ago ? I would want equals in performance to my belter/direct drive, so if the general feeling is they won't be better or as good then its an itch I won't scratch.

There are plenty of options re used Garrards at the minute - I prefer the look of the 401 over the 301 - and a few Thorens TD124 mk 2s (love the look) but to do this will cost and I am concerned I might be wasting money by trying and then trying to resell so I would prefer to go into this sure I am not going to - well as sure as one can be. A nice used example would be the thought rather than a Audio Grail unit but servicing seems to bring the cost up to a Grail one pretty much. Any thoughts on that ?

One concern is I recently heard an Inspire Enigma turntable and I didn't like the way it did bass, is this an idler issue affecting them all or just turntables based on Lencos ? It was too strong and too driving in my system.

I like the look of these plinths http://www.oldroadaudio.com/product/handmade-solid-white-oak-plinth-for-garrard-401 but not with the Thorens.

Curious what folks think.


Regards Neil

[Jimbo]

My Lenco certainly does not overdo the bass but it has not been fashionably replinthed. I am beginning to think it is better than my VPI so like you Neil It has got me thinking what if. My conclusion would be ultimately a Garrard 401 in a slate plinth with top flight arm and cartridge.

Not a cheap option but in the long term probably compares with the very best vinyl replay systems available. I would go for a A. Grail sorted 401.

Now which tonearm and cartridge?:scratch:

[The Black Adder]

I can't say anything about the 301 but my TD124 is lovely. They do need some tlc but once you have the motor and the suppressor done the rest is pretty easy.

I have heard a 301 and I really couldn't make a definite decision to how different both decks are from each other.

My 124 hasn't missed a beat since it came back from Schopper and it runs silently as anything.

If you can't get to listen to them side by side, go with your heart.

As for re-sale?... I think they are on a par with each other to be honest. They both hold their prices.

There is some people on here who can refurb a 124 so I suggest you do that as Schopper are expensive.

Any questions, let me know :)

[Spectral Morn]

My Lenco certainly does not overdo the bass but it has not been fashionably replinthed. I am beginning to think it is better than my VPI so like you Neil It has got me thinking what if. My conclusion would be ultimately a Garrard 401 in a slate plinth with top flight arm and cartridge.

Not a cheap option but in the long term probably compares with the very best vinyl replay systems available. I would go for a A. Grail sorted 401.

Now which and cartridge?:scratch:

If money was no option, but I want to do this - if I do this - on the cleapish side but if I like it and then feel I should have gone for a Grail one :doh: then it means selling and rebuying and I really can't be bothered doing that - as selling anything at the minute is a struggle.

I had never heard an idler before anywhere and this was a first listen. The deck needed speed re setting - easy enough to do and it wasn't level in its plinth again easy to do. I thought the mid and trebble nice and soundstaging was good but the music was underpined with a very strong bass which almost was detached from the mid and trebble, and felt wrong to me. The reason I ask is that my understanding is idlers do sound different to belt or direct drive in this particular area - so what I was hearing might just be how they are.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

I can't say anything about the 301 but my TD124 is lovely. They do need some tlc but once you have the motor and the suppressor done the rest is pretty easy.

I have heard a 301 and I really couldn't make a definite decision to how different both decks are from each other.

My 124 hasn't missed a beat since it came back from Schopper and it runs silently as anything.

If you can't get to listen to them side by side, go with your heart.

As for re-sale?... I think they are on a par with each other to be honest. They both hold their prices.

There is some people on here who can refurb a 124 so I suggest you do that as Schopper are expensive.

Any questions, let me know :)

Someone I know quiet well had one to sell a few years ago with a Schopper plinth and frankly my ignorance of such matters mean't I offered him a bit less than it was worth and he sold it to someone else who offered more..... I regret that (love the look of that combination) but I hate this messing around, tell me what you want and I will say yes or no.

That is the other thing that bothers me is that idlers seem to need more tlc and aftercare than belters or DDs. That does put me off a little, if that is true.


Regards Neil

[The Black Adder]

Someone I know quiet well had one to sell a few years ago with a Schopper plinth and frankly my ignorance of such matters mean't I offered him a bit less than it was worth and he sold it to someone else who offered more..... I regret that (love the look of that combination) but I hate this messing around, tell me what you want and I will say yes or no.

That is the other thing that bothers me is that idlers seem to need more tlc and aftercare than belters or DDs. That does put me off a little, if that is true.


Regards Neil

Only the people with no clue say that, it's utter B@llocks... The TD124 is sooooo easy to maintain. Every 18 months, just a few drops of oil on the main spindle and if you want, replace the belt but not always necessary.

Since it's refurb in 2010, I've replaced the belt once and that was only me being my caring self. :)

[walpurgis]

Having owned the 401, a white 301 and a silver 301, I'd sooner have another Lenco G88 or G99. The L75/78 is very similar mechanically.

[The Black Adder]

Indeed, the G88 is a top deck.

[Spectral Morn]

Having owned the 401, a white 301 and a silver 301, I'd sooner have another Lenco G88 or G99. The L75/78 is very similar mechanically.

Care to put more meat onto why?

Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

Only the people with no clue say that, it's utter B@llocks... The TD124 is sooooo easy to maintain. Every 18 months, just a few drops of oil on the main spindle and if you want, replace the belt but not always necessary.

Since it's refurb in 2010, I've replaced the belt once and that was only me being my caring self. :)

Fair enough Josie, its a perception based on reading about this. In all my years in audio retail I never came across an idler, not once. I know my way round most types and makes of belter and more recently DDs but idlers zip until I heard the Enigma.


Regards Neil

[The Black Adder]

no probs, Neil... as I said, though. If you can't listen to them side by side then just buy what you like. They are both superb TT's in every respect.

[walpurgis]

Care to put more meat onto why?

Regards Neil

The Garrards sounded very good, but I preferred the G88/99 sound. The Garrards are also a bit 'clunkier' to use.

[Barry]

As an owner of three Thorens 124/IIs, it wouldn't surprise you to learn that is what I would recommend!

I have to confess I have never listened to either a Garrard 301 or 401 'in anger'; my experience of them has either been through a friend using one, or in one of the better record shops that used a Garrard deck with either Decca or SME arm.

Given the choice I would probably go for a Thorens as the SQ is virtually independant of the plinth used, and the arm board is interchangable. The Garrard's SQ is highly dependant on the plinth. Of the two, the Thorens is mechanically more complicated, but IMO is easier to service, though genuine spare parts are becoming more and more expensive.

It is generally considered that the Garrards have better bass performance, whereas the Thorens beat the Garrards elsewhere.

I have had a quick look on eBay. Depending on location, condition or whether the TTs come with a plinth, BIN prices for the two decks are:

Garrard 301/401 £850 - £1,760

Thorens 124/II £750 - £2,000.

Trust this is of some help

Regards
Barry

(PS You might like to consider a Goldring G99. I have spent some time with one of these decks, and have to confess it gave my Thorens a good run for the money.)

[Spectral Morn]

As an owner of three Thorens 124/IIs, it wouldn't surprise you to learn that is what I would recommend!

I have to confess I have never listened to either a Garrard 301 or 401 'in anger'; my experience of them has either been through a friend using one, or in one of the better record shops that used a Garrard deck with either Decca or SME arm.

Given the choice I would probably go for a Thorens as the SQ is virtually independant of the plinth used, and the arm board is interchangable. The Garrard's SQ is highly dependant on the plinth. Of the two, the Thorens is mechanically more complicated, but IMO is easier to service, though genuine spare parts are becoming more and more expensive.

It is generally considered that the Garrards have better bass performance, whereas the Thorens beat the Garrards elsewhere.

I have had a quick look on eBay. Depending on location, condition or whether the TTs come with a plinth, BIN prices for the two decks are:

Garrard 301/401 £850 - £1,760

Thorens 124/II £750 - £2,000.

Trust this is of some help

Regards
Barry

(PS You might like to consider a Goldring G99. I have spent some time with one of these decks, and have to confess it gave my Thorens a good run for the money.)

There are a few 401's kicking around for £500 ish but yes the Emporium Thoren's is £750.

Interesting re the plinth being less of an issue with a TD124 than the Garrards, that's useful to know.

I certainly don't want to go crazy on this as I may not like what I hear, shame I know no one here with a 401 or 124 I could hear - makes it harder.




Regards Neil

[Wakefield Turntables]

301 all the way baby!

[Spectral Morn]

301 all the way baby!

Why ?


Regards Neil

[Wakefield Turntables]

Why ?


Regards Neil

Because I prefer the aesthetics and sonic capabilities of the 301 over the 401 and I think that a 301 when applied with a decent external PSU more than equals a TD124 mk2. I have to be honest and say I've never heard a Goldring G88 / G99 but I would suspect a properly sorted example would be just as good as a Garrard or Thorens deck for considerably less money.

[Spectral Morn]

Because I prefer the aesthetics and sonic capabilities of the 301 over the 401 and I think that a 301 when applied with a decent external PSU more than equals a TD124 mk2. I have to be honest and say I've never heard a Goldring G88 / G99 but I would suspect a properly sorted example would be just as good as a Garrard or Thorens deck for considerably less money.

Ok, thank you Andrew.



Regards Neil

[Barry]

Because I prefer the aesthetics and sonic capabilities of the 301 over the 401 and I think that a 301 when applied with a decent external PSU more than equals a TD124 mk2. I have to be honest and say I've never heard a Goldring G88 / G99 but I would suspect a properly sorted example would be just as good as a Garrard or Thorens deck for considerably less money.

Have you compared a Thorens 124/II in perfect condition with a Garrard 301/401 (without an external PSU)?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Have you compared a Thorens 124/II in perfect condition with a Garrard 301/401 (without an external PSU)?

No, but I'm giving the Thorens the respect is deserves. But define a "perfect condition" Thorens, where's you reference metric?

[Barry]

No, but I'm giving the Thorens the respect is deserves. But define a "perfect condition" Thorens, where's you reference metric?

One that meets the manufacturer's specification.

[DiveDeepDog]

I've got all 3, Grey Grease 301, 401's and a 124 (had plenty of Lenco's too)

IMO, the best sounding with balance of drive and image is the 401, 301 sounds less sophisticated but has (a little) more pace.

The 124 looks very nice, and a pleasure to use/own but for me lacks the traits I like , pace, drive and metronomic bass line, it may be more refined sounding than a Garrard, with smoother more defined midrange?



Lenco's are a good budget option, especially if you can DIY, but IMO fall short of what Garrard's do, I include PTP's that I've had too. By the time you've bought a PTP, upgraded the bearing, stacked the platter you've spent more than 401 money.

[Spectral Morn]

I've got all 3, Grey Grease 301, 401's and a 124 (had plenty of Lenco's too)

IMO, the best sounding with balance of drive and image is the 401, 301 sounds less sophisticated but has (a little) more pace.

The 124 looks very nice, and a pleasure to use/own but for me lacks the traits I like , pace, drive and metronomic bass line, it may be more refined sounding than a Garrard, with smoother more defined midrange?



Lenco's are a good budget option, especially if you can DIY, but IMO fall short of what Garrard's do, I include PTP's that I've had too. By the time you've bought a PTP, upgraded the bearing, stacked the platter you've spent more than 401 money.

Thank you Mark. What's a ptp?


Regards Neil

[walpurgis]

Alternatively. One could try one of these.

http://i57.tinypic.com/6olz0o.jpg

A very good hefty turntable with the drive and grip to challenge idlers. (excuse the dust :))

[Spectral Morn]

Alternatively. One could try one of these.

http://i61.tinypic.com/5ca9vo.jpg

A very good turntable with the drive and grip to challenge idlers.

Which is a ?


Regards Neil

[Barry]

I've got all 3, Grey Grease 301, 401's and a 124 (had plenty of Lenco's too)

IMO, the best sounding with balance of drive and image is the 401, 301 sounds less sophisticated but has (a little) more pace.

The 124 looks very nice, and a pleasure to use/own but for me lacks the traits I like , pace, drive and metronomic bass line, it may be more refined sounding than a Garrard, with smoother more defined midrange?



Lenco's are a good budget option, especially if you can DIY, but IMO fall short of what Garrard's do, I include PTP's that I've had too. By the time you've bought a PTP, upgraded the bearing, stacked the platter you've spent more than 401 money.

Wouldn't argue with that, save to say IMO the treble register is smoother and better defined as well. And the 124 has 'drive', though I don't understand what is meant by 'pace'.

However if you want the lot, I would say get yourself an EMT 930 or 927.

[walpurgis]

Toshiba SR-370. So far (apart from in HiFi World), an unsung hero. Much more solid and heavy than the evergreen SL1200 and has a useful SME type mounting as standard. It's a high class, tight, dynamic sounding DD turntable.

[Spectral Morn]

Toshiba SR-370. So far (apart from in HiFi World), an unsung hero. Much more solid and heavy than the evergreen SL1200 and has a useful SME type mounting as standard. It's a high class, tight, dynamic sounding DD turntable.

Real out of the box one there, SME mounting would be good.



Regards Neil

[Ali Tait]

Haven't heard the others, but I'm very happy with my 401 in a twin tier slate plinth. Easy to service too, using online guides.

[Ammonite Audio]

Only the people with no clue say that, it's utter B@llocks... The TD124 is sooooo easy to maintain. Every 18 months, just a few drops of oil on the main spindle and if you want, replace the belt but not always necessary.

Since it's refurb in 2010, I've replaced the belt once and that was only me being my caring self. :)

Hmmm... I love my TD124 but it does require more regular maintenance than that, typically monthly. It's not difficult, and involves cleaning belt residue off the motor pulley and stepped pulley, and maybe adding a touch of talc powder to the belt. The E50 motor does get hot, so its pulley gets hot too and accumulates rubber, leading to audibly increased noise. I'd be truly amazed if your TD124 is any different.

The TD124 is a much more complex beast than the Garrards and there's no way that anyone nowadays would choose to design a record player along such lines, but it does work as a whole, in a musical sense. It also has the advantage of being small, at least when in a sensible Ortofon-style plinth.

[The Black Adder]

Hmmm... I love my TD124 but it does require more regular maintenance than that, typically monthly. It's not difficult, and involves cleaning belt residue off the motor pulley and stepped pulley, and maybe adding a touch of talc powder to the belt. The E50 motor does get hot, so its pulley gets hot too and accumulates rubber, leading to audibly increased noise. I'd be truly amazed if your TD124 is any different.

The TD124 is a much more complex beast than the Garrards and there's no way that anyone nowadays would choose to design a record player along such lines, but it does work as a whole, in a musical sense. It also has the advantage of being small, at least when in a sensible Ortofon-style plinth.

Monthly?!!! - You must use it an awful lot then. Sorry to say but, mine is different to yours for sure... I use mine about 4 times a week. I check the motor pulley once every 6 months and have nothing bad regarding residue.

What belts are you using?

[Patrick Dixon]

I have an EMT927, a Thorens TD124 II and a grease bearing Garrard 301 all sitting next to each other.

The 301 is my favourite; it has a Terminator arm and a Decca C4E and sounds dynamic and rhythmic - closest to a live sound. It's in a skeletal slate plinth decoupled with 4 squash balls that one day I will finish off.

I've just finished restoring the 124; it has an SME S2 Imp with a Shure V15 III. It's a charming deck, compact and nice to use but not built to the same bulletproof levels of the Garrard or EMT. It's very well designed but gives the impression that a few corners were cut to save money in it's realisation. The motor, the belt and the intermediate pulley are all sources of noise, and whilst these can be reduced substantially they are never entirely silent. The top platters are never entirely straight either. However it sounds really nice with an ease and a wide soundstage, and since the SME has detachable headshells I can easily play 78s on it.

I don't play the EMT much ATM; it has a 12 Ortofon arm with an EMT head and isn't quite as dynamic as the 301/Decca (although it has the same drive to the music). It's very well thought out and built to survive a WW. I should spend some more time and money on it really.

I've recently built a Nigel Speed Controller and it improves both the Garrard and Thorens - the Garrard substantially. I haven't ever heard a vinyl setup as good as mine with the Garrard now, although there are lots of decks I haven't heard.

[Ali Tait]

Nigel speed controller?

[Spectral Morn]

As I suspected nothing is straight forward.

I had hoped someone might - they still might - come in and say definitively Neil you are going to waste your time and money doing this as the TT's you have already are better, or the vintage route is a step sideways, or only do it for the historical experience, if that floats your boat.

There seem to be plenty of folks who use vintage decks instead of modern highend ones and I have to believe this isn't just because they are masochists or because its historical interest (some might though) but because a few vintage designs offer performance as good as or maybe better than the modern TTs, even super modern ones. Going the vintage route isn't easy, is expensive (increasingly so) and does seem to require more DIY knowledge or patience than buying a modern deck, but is it worth it ?

My itch is based on the above notion but the extra hassle factor does mean I need to know this extra effort is going to get me something special, over and above what I have already.



Regards Neil

[struth]

Think youve hit it on head Neil. In many ways its maybe a subtle difference but they can add up. I went for an old thorens thinking initially it wouldnt cost too much and always wanted to build one up from scratch. It ended up costing north of a grand:doh: still its bespoke enough to be individual and sounds great. Was it sonically worth it over the srm ?
Good question and yes it was but was it value...probably not. Doubt i would get my money back selling as a deck as is so it would have to be sold in bits... Your tt,s are excellent and doubt youd improve much...just a differing flavour....good fun though:)

[Spectral Morn]

Think youve hit it on head Neil. In many ways its maybe a subtle difference but they can add up. I went for an old thorens thinking initially it wouldnt cost too much and always wanted to build one up from scratch. It ended up costing north of a grand:doh: still its bespoke enough to be individual and sounds great. Was it sonically worth it over the srm ?
Good question and yes it was but was it value...probably not. Doubt i would get my money back selling as a deck as is so it would have to be sold in bits... Your tt,s are excellent and doubt youd improve much...just a differing flavour....good fun though:)

Indeed Grant.

It would be great if I could do comparisons, side by side but I can't.

Certainly the Enigma was interesting and it was nice to get to work on one, but it was not better than anything I have here already and the way it did bass didn't sit well within my system. I think bass presentation is a concern if idlers kind of do bass the same, but maybe they don't ?

The other concern is selling it on afterwards may be difficult and at the minute little good seems to be selling - I have a clatter of items not selling, as have others - and this includes vintage decks.


Regards Neil

[Patrick Dixon]

Nigel speed controller?
Google is your friend.

I think you have to enjoy the journey and the experience of using something from the past. It's not like buying something that's a finished product and just using it.

I bought the Garrard quite cheap from eBay a while ago, but I've still spent quite a bit of money on it and it's not finished. I wanted Audio Grail to restore it but he turned me down as he's too busy. Can't recall how much the Thorens cost (more than the Garrard for sure) but again I have spent time and money rebuilding motors, bearings etc and putting it in a plinth. The aim with the Thorens was not to make it a super deck but just to restore it for the pleasure, and for the pleasure of its use.

The EMT I was lucky enough to be given, although I have spent a small amount of money and time on the motor, bearing and arm rewiring, and re-capping the (mono) phono stage.

[Spectral Morn]

Google is your friend.

I think you have to enjoy the journey and the experience of using something from the past. It's not like buying something that's a finished product and just using it.

I bought the Garrard quite cheap from eBay a while ago, but I've still spent quite a bit of money on it and it's not finished. I wanted Audio Grail to restore it but he turned me down as he's too busy. Can't recall how much the Thorens cost (more than the Garrard for sure) but again I have spent time and money rebuilding motors, bearings etc and putting it in a plinth. The aim with the Thorens was not to make it a super deck but just to restore it for the pleasure, and for the pleasure of its use.

The EMT I was lucky enough to be given, although I have spent a small amount of money and time on the motor, bearing and arm rewiring, and re-capping the (mono) phono stage.

North West Analogue do restoration work on various vintage decks + they offer a new bearing for Garrards etc. Obviously if you want old as new Audio grail or maybe Loricraft comes to mind otherwise its the DIY route and that to a degree puts me off as my skills in this area are not that hot. I think also the fact that bar - oldroadaudio - there is no one in NI offering support or help on vintage decks does also concern me.

My curiosity Patrick simply comes down to the potential in these decks to be better than what I have, but the question is that potential real or based on rose tinted glasses comments from those in love with the idea of vintage/or being audio rebels, or more in it for the journey of restoration ? I don't say that to be rude, or diss anyone into vintage but simply to express my concern re modern maybe (and I am aware my TTs are 20 years old now, arms and carts much newer) being mostly better in regards to turntables.


Regards Neil

[walpurgis]

at the minute little good seems to be selling - I have a clatter of items not selling, as have others - and this includes vintage decks.


Regards Neil

I agree with that. The used equipment market is definitely down, vintage or otherwise and on eBay much gear seems to not sell, being constantly re-listed (mine included). Things may hopefully pick up as usual, once we get into winter when people seem to get more involved with their Hi-Fi.

[Jimbo]

I can tell you Neil I was gobsmacked when I heard my standard Lenco with a very cheap cartridge almost sounding better than my VPI/2M black. I am convinced some of these older idlers are some of the best TT every produced and I wish I had not sold my 301 25 years ago as this with my Decca cartridge was the best sounding system I ever had.

If you take into consideration the costs involved with a fully sorted 301/401 or Thorens you would probably have to spend a lot more on a modern TT to better it.

Maybe the only way to know if this is the route you want to go down is borrow one and try it in your system if that is possible. I know this sounds obvious but it the only sure way of knowing.

[Ali Tait]

Google is your friend.

I think you have to enjoy the journey and the experience of using something from the past. It's not like buying something that's a finished product and just using it.

I bought the Garrard quite cheap from eBay a while ago, but I've still spent quite a bit of money on it and it's not finished. I wanted Audio Grail to restore it but he turned me down as he's too busy. Can't recall how much the Thorens cost (more than the Garrard for sure) but again I have spent time and money rebuilding motors, bearings etc and putting it in a plinth. The aim with the Thorens was not to make it a super deck but just to restore it for the pleasure, and for the pleasure of its use.

The EMT I was lucky enough to be given, although I have spent a small amount of money and time on the motor, bearing and arm rewiring, and re-capping the (mono) phono stage.

Well gee thanks for the help.

[Spectral Morn]

I can tell you Neil I was gobsmacked when I heard my standard Lenco with a very cheap cartridge almost sounding better than my VPI/2M black. I am convinced some of these older idlers are some of the best TT every produced and I wish I had not sold my 301 25 years ago as this with my Decca cartridge was the best sounding system I ever had.

If you take into consideration the costs involved with a fully sorted 301/401 or Thorens you would probably have to spend a lot more on a modern TT to better it.

Maybe the only way to know if this is the route you want to go down is borrow one and try it in your system if that is possible. I know this sounds obvious but it the only sure way of knowing.

And that is the problem James, I can't. I know no one who has a Garrard or a Thorens to do that, so its buy one on spec and hope it does what I need it to do to justify the cost and any hassle, and if I don't like it recoupe the expense by selling.

VPI's are fiddly to set up right, re setting the bias. Could be you just didn't get on with the way they make music. My only experience so far with a Lenco based Inpsire Enigma was ok but not enough to make me feel I am missing anything.


Regards Neil

[Patrick Dixon]

I think a PTP Solid would be a better bet than the Inspire Enigma

(Link for those that can't/won't google http://www.ptpaudio.com/solid9.html)

[Spectral Morn]

I think a PTP Solid would be a better bet than the Inspire Enigma

(Link for those that can't/won't google http://www.ptpaudio.com/solid9.html)

In fairness Patrick I had no way of knowing what it referred to but thanks for the link, interesting.


Regards Neil

[Patrick Dixon]

Yeah, I had no idea what a Inspire Enigma or Triplanar U7 was either.

[DiveDeepDog]

Hi, sorry, I'd assumed the PTP was common knowledge.

Essentially a DIY solution that addresses the Lenco's pressed top plate (Peter now does a whole TT ) I've made a couple of ply ones, heard a very well put together slate one, 2 out of 3 of them now use 401.


401 is the best for value, (my favourite sound too) there's enough around in reasonable plinths @ £600.

Idlers and bass is a funny subject, we all talk about it, but when compared to many decks there appears less (I heard an LP12 the other day that highlighted the point), it's not the quantity, but the way it's delivered I've found addictive, the moment I heard my first Lenco L75 I knew my days of belts and springs were over!:lol:

[crackorama]

A Lenco will give you a good insight into the idler sound,at a fraction of the cost.
I have owned a 124 mk 11 and a 401and listened to many 301s.
I now live with a Lenco75 in a nice diy plinth, it is very good and
So easy to maintain. I have quite a few Lenco tt in various
guises, you are more than wecome to borrow one if you would
Like. Regards Niel.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi, sorry, I'd assumed the PTP was common knowledge.

Essentially a DIY solution that addresses the Lenco's pressed top plate (Peter now does a whole TT ) I've made a couple of ply ones, heard a very well put together slate one, 2 out of 3 of them now use 401.


401 is the best for value, (my favourite sound too) there's enough around in reasonable plinths @ £600.

Idlers and bass is a funny subject, we all talk about it, but when compared to many decks there appears less (I heard an LP12 the other day that highlighted the point), it's not the quantity, but the way it's delivered I've found addictive, the moment I heard my first Lenco L75 I knew my days of belts and springs were over!:lol:

Despite my reading Stereophile and Six Moons somehow PTP Audio slipped past me unnoticed so I didn't know about them.

They look nice and priced reasonably too but not exactly what I was thinking about.

Having read the reviews this afternoon I was struck by a few comments that helped crystallise what I was hearing from the Enigma and that was that it has a very driven, almost relentless sound, maybe forceful fits better and the bass was underpinning this in a similar way and I didn't like that aspect of its presentation and I didn't feel it matched into the overall system I was trying it in.

I compared the Enigma to one of my Technics 1200s and I preferred that presentation but all of these decks were overshadowed by my just had - at the time - experience with an AMG Giro which frankly blew everything into the dust.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

A Lenco will give you a good insight into the idler sound,at a fraction of the cost.
I have owned a 124 mk 11 and a 401and listened to many 301s.
I now live with a Lenco75 in a nice diy plinth, it is very good and
So easy to maintain. I have quite a few Lenco tt in various
guises, you are more than wecome to borrow one if you would
Like. Regards Niel.

Hi Ralph

With an Inspire Enigma pretty much being a Lenco I guess I have tried a Lenco already....in away.

Thank you for the very kind offer, but being in Northern Ireland means shipping and I wouldn't want to risk you sending one and it getting damaged either coming or being returned.


Regards Neil

[Jimbo]

A Lenco will give you a good insight into the idler sound,at a fraction of the cost.
I have owned a 124 mk 11 and a 401and listened to many 301s.
I now live with a Lenco75 in a nice diy plinth, it is very good and
So easy to maintain. I have quite a few Lenco tt in various
guises, you are more than wecome to borrow one if you would
Like. Regards Niel.

Hi Ralph, I am a new convert to the Lenco GL75 and frankly I am stunned at its performance. I had a 301 some years back and it never sounded as good as my Lenco but then it wasn't in a decent plinth to be fair. I think mine is a lucky find in very good nick and I am even impressed with the performance of the arm.

I know others have done all sorts of things with the GL75 but in its stock form it can still sound very good I deed!

However getting back to the OP maybe the Lenco you heard was not typical of how they sound as mine definitely does not over do the bass, it's a bit light compared to my VPI. But my VPI is a bit OTT in the bass in my system. The Lenco sounds just right. As I pointed out on my Lenco post the compulsive aspect of idlers is their drive and how they allow the music to flow in a very consistent manner. Had something of a R2R tape machine about it in this respect.

I found the sound staging to be perfect and very solid with great vocal and instrumental articulation. Comparing my belter to this made me think the VPI was a tad more airy and transparent but at the expense of a solid underpinning and drive.

My concern with the Lenco is that it is limited by its arm and headshell where as a 401/301 could have anything you like attached to excell with the very best cartridges.

[Patrick Dixon]

... a very driven, almost relentless sound, maybe forceful fits better and the bass was underpinning this in a similar way


I think this is a characteristic of idler drives when compared to belt driven turntables. When I first got my 301 having just sold a top spec (at the time) LP12, I was struck by how much better the 301 did the PRaT thing. The timing was just metronomic. To me, that's how the music is and it's how it sounds live, but maybe in the wrong system or with the wrong music it could get wearing. IMV it just gives you more what's on the record than if you put a belt in the way. Add a Decca into the equation and you get dynamics too, and then things start to sound alive.

If that's what bothers you then I reckon a 124 could be more your thing. It seems slightly more relaxed and spacious to me.

[DiveDeepDog]

I think this is a characteristic of idler drives when compared to belt driven turntables. When I first got my 301 having just sold a top spec (at the time) LP12, I was struck by how much better the 301 did the PRaT thing. The timing was just metronomic. To me, that's how the music is and it's how it sounds live, but maybe in the wrong system or with the wrong music it could get wearing. IMV it just gives you more what's on the record than if you put a belt in the way. Add a Decca into the equation and you get dynamics too, and then things start to sound alive.



+1, that sone of the best descriptions I've heard, I've got a Decca SG too, I wouldn't choose it for every record, but when its right there's nothing better.

[Patrick Dixon]

Here's a photo of my TD124 II. I've since just added the SME to Decca head adapter and an H4E but I need to sort out the SME balance and setup properly.

15422

[Spectral Morn]

Here's a photo of my TD124 II. I've since just added the SME to Decca head adapter and an H4E but I need to sort out the SME balance and setup properly.

15422

Very nice.

Interesting re the tally of presentation of the music, I guess a Garrard won't be for me then, as I felt things were being thrown at me. Sounds like a Thorens might fit better as spacious, delicate, nuanced and musical suits me better than machine gun presentation.


Regards Neil

[Patrick Dixon]

I wouldn't describe the 301 as machine gun presentation. It's just that Sly & Robbie sound like Sly & Robbie.

The 124 and do Decca sound really good though.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I wouldn't describe the 301 as machine gun presentation.

I'd have to agree with this. Double bass drum solo's will highlight this weakness, try listening to "Dark Eternal Night" by Dream Theater on a 301 and then listen on a 1210, the 1210 blows the 301 out of the water.

[Patrick Dixon]

Not sure what a Double bass drum solo is but I was pretty underwhelmed by the 1210 I heard.

[Desmo]

Not sure what a Double bass drum solo is...

sounds like torture! can't stand drum solos at the best of times, and why do people clap after them? I can only assume they are clapping because the solo has ended!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Not sure what a Double bass drum solo is but I was pretty underwhelmed by the 1210 I heard.

You not heard a decent 1210 then.



sounds like torture! can't stand drum solos at the best of times, and why do people clap after them? I can only assume they are clapping because the solo has ended!

Thread drift....

[Barry]

Not sure what a Double bass drum solo is but I was pretty underwhelmed by the 1210 I heard.

Think there is an "and" missing along with an errant Grocer's apostrope, so should read: "Double bass and drum solos will highlight this weakness, ....".

To return to the OP, frankly Neil with the decks you have (SME 20 and Oracle Delphi), I doubt if either a Garrard 301/401 or a Thorens 124 will, or could, better them.

I'm sticking to my Thorens for the simple reason it was not bettered by the Linn LP12 I had in my company, and also because it has readily interchangable arm boards. All my arms are mounted on individual armboards, and each arm is set up for the cartridge it carries (tracking geometry, VTA, VTF, bias etc.), so swapping arms and cartridges is a quick and simple affair.

As to the bass performance of the TD124/II, well I have just played 'Underture' from the Who's 'Tommy' and the combined drumming of Keith Moon and the bass guitar of John Entwhistle is delivered with sufficient metronomic timing to satisfy me. Also played Stanley Clarke's 'School Days',and again the bass playing of Stanley Clarke and the drumming of Gerry Brown is quite satisfying and a joy to hear. Next up some jazz double bass - Charles Mingus.

[Patrick Dixon]

You not heard a decent 1210 then.


I guess we could say the same about you and the 301 ...


Think there is an "and" missing along with an errant Grocer's apostrope, so should read: "Double bass and drum solos will highlight this weakness, ....".


Yeah, but if it's a double bass AND a drum it can't be a solo, so it would have to be 'double bass OR drum solos' ;-)

[Barry]

I guess we could say the same about you and the 301 ...



Yeah, but if it's a double bass AND a drum it can't be a solo, so it would have to be 'double bass OR drum solos' ;-)

OK, it should either be: "Both double bass and drum solos ....", or as you say: "Double bass or drum solos ...."

[Wakefield Turntables]

I guess we could say the same about you and the 301 ...



Please explain this reply.

[Patrick Dixon]

Well you don't know what 1210 I listened to or what I heard when I did and I don't know what 301 you listened to or what you heard when you did.

You like your 1210 and I like my 301 so everyone's happy and the OP is no further forward.

Personally I always think phases like 'murders xyz' or 'blows xyz out of the water on ...' show a certain lack of balanced judgement when it come to comparing these kind of things. The fact is they are all pretty good in their own way, they are all setup slightly differently, and there's no real consensus on what's best. I appreciate that many people like to use hyperbole to emphasise the differences, but I prefer to acknowledge that in many cases the differences are fairly subtle - especially if you only listen to a shortish demo.

The best system I ever heard at a show (one of Kevin Scott's) was fronted by an SME (a 10 I think) and it sounded absolutely mesmerising until the bass and drums came in (which completely killed the illusion), but I'm pretty certain that wasn't the SME's fault and I'm quite sure it is an immensely capable turntable. But if you have an itch and the time and money to scratch it, then why not?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Right I understand now. I also own a pretty well sorted 301 and love it to pieces but it's sadly lacking in the bass compartment when compared to my 1210.

[walpurgis]

My BSR MP60 will run rings round the lot! ;)

[Audio Advent]

Depending on location, condition or whether the TTs come with a plinth, BIN prices for the two decks are:

Garrard 301/401 £850 - £1,760

Thorens 124/II £750 - £2,000.

Trust this is of some help


I think the conclusion there is to NOT buy anything with a BIN price, nor to use BIN prices (I could ask £3000 for a Dual 505 if I wanted to... means nothing) as a guide.

By auction:

Garrard 301s ~ £650 for oil bearing. £800 - £1200 for grease bearing versions and depending if the old silver hammerite ones.

Garrard 401s vary from £350 to £500 max in a plinth.

(With a 401 you're more likely to get a bargain my buying one with an arm and selling the arm e.g. a 401 with SME 3009 plus cart at about £600 and sell on the arm and cart for £300.)

Thorens TD124 ~ £500 to £850 as bare decks.

This excludes any specials which have had a ground-up rebuild.

I'd go for an early 401 personally - value for money.

[walpurgis]

That sounds about right, although I haven't seen a reasonable 401 at £350(ish) for a while.

(paid £50 for my last one, with 2000 plinth, SME 3009 and V15. Was a long while ago though)

[Audio Advent]

That sounds about right, although I haven't seen a reasonable 401 at £350(ish) for a while.

(paid £50 for my last one, with 2000 plinth, SME 3009 and V15. Was a long while ago though)

Plenty about though. Just did a completed auction search:

£301: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-401-IN-VERY-GOOD-CONDITION-WITH-BOX-MANUAL-TEMPLATE-TEST-CERT-/281808830303

£345 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-401-turntable-/151823914939 - early one so is same as 301 but with 401 casting.

£285 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-401-Turntable-/262057816757

~£250 once arm and cart sold on : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-401-Turntable-with-SME-3009-Arm-and-purpose-made-Plinth-/201429544562

£355 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-Good-garrard-401-direct-drive-turntable-/381409226589

~£200 once arm sold on : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-401-Turntable-with-Shure-SME-3009-Series-II-Improved-tonearm-/321857221084

All of those in the last two weeks alone - "anything is hard to find, if you will not open your eyes" - The Smiths

[Barry]

I quoted BIN prices, as I thought Neil would not want to go to the bother of bidding. Certainly if you are prepared to gamble, then the TTs can be obtained for a lower price.

Looking at the items sold over the last couple of months on eBay, we find the following:

Garrard 301

18 items, sold for £467 - £2,100. That is: £887 +/- £461 (mean +/- 1 standard deviation)


Garrard 401

19 items, sold for £399 - £895. That is £508 +/- £150 (mean +/- 1 standard deviation)


Thorens 124

8 items, sold for £461 - £860. That is £644 +/- £131 (mean +/- 1 standard deviation)




My three TD124/IIs cost me £38, £250 and £750 respectively (the latter including an SME 3012 arm and a cartridge).

[struth]

Sounds about right. Better with a belter

[Spectral Morn]

I think I really need to hear a good sample of each type :301,401 and a 124 to move forwards on this, I really don't want to buy blind, though if a good, but reasonably priced 124 popped up I might go against that thought.

My fear is I end up buying blind and dislike my purchase and then struggle to sell the error on. I am aware there are some 301s and a 401 for sale on here but arms, and plinths I don't want or need, as I have spare arms and I have a particular plinth in mind from a local crafts person - old road audio.

I am just not sure what to do :scratch:


Regards Neil

[struth]

Of the 3 I would prefer the 124 personally but the 301 is supposed to be great too. Not heard one tyough Neil .... would think your dd would be pretty much at ssme level and the one in slate plinth is to die for.

[Patrick Dixon]

I think I really need to hear a good sample of each type :301,401 and a 124 to move forwards on this

Yes, I think it's a big help if you know that what you're aiming for has the potential to satisfy you. The dangers are that you buy something that isn't great and get disillusioned, or spend a lot of money and find out it will never be what you want. I don't think you need to hear both a 401 and a 301; they are similar enough that one of either would be enough.

The guy from BD Audio is selling a very nice looking 124 somewhere, but I think it's over £1K. Most things are negotiable though, and ATM it's a buyer's market.

You would be welcome to hear my decks, but I'm not exactly local.

[EDIT] Link to 124 http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?124051-Thorens-124-Mk2

[Spectral Morn]

Yes, I think it's a big help if you know that what you're aiming for has the potential to satisfy you. The dangers are that you buy something that isn't great and get disillusioned, or spend a lot of money and find out it will never be what you want. I don't think you need to hear both a 401 and a 301; they are similar enough that one of either would be enough.

The guy from BD Audio is selling a very nice looking 124 somewhere, but I think it's over £1K. Most things are negotiable though, and ATM it's a buyer's market.

You would be welcome to hear my decks, but I'm not exactly local.

[EDIT] Link to 124 http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?124051-Thorens-124-Mk2

Thank you for the offer and the link Patrick, appreciated.

I would prefer a mk2 124 and I think that's a mk1, and its more than I would be looking/hoping to spend.



Regards Neil

[The Black Adder]

Thank you for the offer and the link Patrick, appreciated.

I would prefer a mk2 124 and I think that's a mk1, and its more than I would be looking/hoping to spend.



Regards Neil

Hi Neil. It is a MKII.

The MKII had the angular selector whilst the MKI had a more curved bullet like shaped selector.

[Barry]

Apart from the change of shape of the speed selector, Mk.II decks are coloured a light grey and have black controls, whereas Mk.I decks are cream-coloured with grey controls.

[The Black Adder]

ah yes... I do actually like the beige colour of the MKI... were there any differences technically do you know, Barry?

[Spectral Morn]

Thank you for putting me right :doh:

Anyway its collection only, so a non starter. Shame as it looks nice.



Regards Neil

[Barry]

ah yes... I do actually like the beige colour of the MKI... were there any differences technically do you know, Barry?

Yes, a few. The most obvious being the Mk. I decks had a cast iron platter. This was replaced on the Mk, II with a lighter platter made from an aluminium zinc alloy.

[Patrick Dixon]

Anyway its collection only, so a non starter. Shame as it looks nice.

OK I will collect it and ship it to you for the price of the stamp, so find another excuse ;-)

[Spectral Morn]

OK I will collect it and ship it to you for the price of the stamp, so find another excuse ;-)

lol that's very kind. I have asked a few questions of BD, to see what he says.


Regards Neil

[Patrick Dixon]

I think I saw a thread about it somewhere. Maybe on the Lenco Forum? It was in a plainer looking plinth at one time.

[Audio Advent]

I quoted BIN prices, as I thought Neil would not want to go to the bother of bidding. Certainly if you are prepared to gamble, then the TTs can be obtained for a lower price.

Looking at the items sold over the last couple of months on eBay, we find the following:

Garrard 301

18 items, sold for £467 - £2,100. That is: £887 +/- £461 (mean +/- 1 standard deviation)


Garrard 401

19 items, sold for £399 - £895. That is £508 +/- £150 (mean +/- 1 standard deviation)


Thorens 124

8 items, sold for £461 - £860. That is £644 +/- £131 (mean +/- 1 standard deviation)




My three TD124/IIs cost me £38, £250 and £750 respectively (the latter including an SME 3012 arm and a cartridge).

I'm not sure what your statistics approach is helpful for. For one person to buy one turntable, they don't have to rely on averages at all - they are able to target the outliers.

So it's good to get a grasp of how often the cheaper ones come up to see how much time to spend looking. The 401 looks a good bet as the cheaper ones appear to come up frequently and in seemingly good condition for that lower price.

I don't see where the gamble is either, other than the gamble that you don't win and therefore have to find another - a gamble in terms of the productivity of your time. BINs aren't necessarily any better condition than auction ones unless they specifically are restored items and often they are not.

[Audio Advent]

I think I really need to hear a good sample of each type :301,401 and a 124 to move forwards on this, I really don't want to buy blind, though if a good, but reasonably priced 124 popped up I might go against that thought.

My fear is I end up buying blind and dislike my purchase and then struggle to sell the error on. I am aware there are some 301s and a 401 for sale on here but arms, and plinths I don't want or need, as I have spare arms and I have a particular plinth in mind from a local crafts person - old road audio.

I am just not sure what to do :scratch:


Regards Neil

Allay your fears! If you buy one at an average price then how would you have trouble moving it on if you didn't like it? They are all popular and sought after.

It's the whole box-swapping priciple - if you buy at a sensible price, you sell it on at no loss AND you've gained first hand experience rathan than going around and around in your head.

[Spectral Morn]

Allay your fears! If you buy one at an average price then how would you have trouble moving it on if you didn't like it? They are all popular and sought after.

It's the whole box-swapping priciple - if you buy at a sensible price, you sell it on at no loss AND you've gained first hand experience rathan than going around and around in your head.

Sam

I have a number of items sitting for sale at the minute, BAT pre, Meridian pre-power, Chapter Audio pre-power and a JBE slatedeck turntable all unsold. I did manage to sell an EAR pre, it went to Australia and took a year to sell. EAR pres are desirable, while maybe the other items are under folks radars re being quality, so if it took a year to sell the EAR who knows how long the other items will sit for.

I see classic turntables not selling either, maybe that might work for me at the minute as a potential buyer, maybe not, but what I don't really want to happen is to have to sit on the value of another piece of kit I don't want to keep any more - if I decide its not right for me.


Regards Neil

[struth]

Maybe need to bump them Neil. I aint seen them surface for a long time so they are maybe too far back in the archives for folk to see. Alas they are pretty high end for a lot of folk like me but if we dont see we wont buy :)

[Spectral Morn]

Maybe need to bump them Neil. I aint seen them surface for a long time so they are maybe too far back in the archives for folk to see. Alas they are pretty high end for a lot of folk like me but if we dont see we wont buy :)

I know Grant, I am not a fan of bumping I search the listings and go back as far as I need to to spot stuff but AoS google ratings are good and I am sure my stuff has shown up, just as you say dearer end of things and re brands on folks radar - not so much, despite them being damn good.

Anyway I didn't want this to be a moan about stuff not selling, just to say that I didn't want another bit of kit sitting with the rest if I didn't like a TD124 or Garrard.

I hate having to buy stuff to try it but alas re shows, bake offs etc the mainland has much more going for it than here, especially re vintage kit. Not saying folks don't have it here but NI audiophiles and vintage enthusiasts seem to mostly keep to themselves - so the opportunities to hear Garrards and Thorens etc is rare, assuming there are locals using such. In fact in all my time involved in audio retail I have never seen a Garrard of any type and only once a Thorens, which I asked about buying and screwed the buying price up, I offered too little and some local guy who collects stuff bought it..... a mystery person who I have never heard of before.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

lol that's very kind. I have asked a few questions of BD, to see what he says.


Regards Neil

Well a week on Jack, of BD audio didn't reply to my email, could be lost in a spam filter, but it was sent via his system. Anyway a week on I have decided for now to not pursue this 'itch' currently.

Thanks for everyones replies and help.


Regards Neil

[DSJR]

I'm too late to this thread, but may I comment anyway please?

Back in the late 60's, a TD125 cost more apparently, than a TD124 and TD150 added together (according to a Gramophone review anyway, I can't remember)! My own feeling is that these three turntables are very much an emotional thing, rather than a technical or 'fidelity' issue (a Techie runs rings round all of them in technical terms imo). I love and deeply respect the incredible engineering in a TD124 and the sound is lighter than I remember the Garrards being. It's my experience that the 301 and 401 need some work and 'plinth fighting' for them to give their very best, but both have this incredibly engaging quality that's hard not to live with. of the two, I understand the 301 motor is better at resisting mains variations than the 401 model (Hifi Dave has a vintage article about this in his magazine stash and when I have time to trawl, I'll find it and scan it for the library).

All three decks are endearing, but being a 60's kid, I love the 401 and being a 'turntable person,' I love the TD124. Like I said though, a Techie in terms of 'fidelity,' would probably see them all off, so definitely a 'heart over head' choice...

[Spectral Morn]

I'm too late to this thread, but may I comment anyway please?

Back in the late 60's, a TD125 cost more apparently, than a TD124 and TD150 added together (according to a Gramophone review anyway, I can't remember)! My own feeling is that these three turntables are very much an emotional thing, rather than a technical or 'fidelity' issue (a Techie runs rings round all of them in technical terms imo). I love and deeply respect the incredible engineering in a TD124 and the sound is lighter than I remember the Garrards being. It's my experience that the 301 and 401 need some work and 'plinth fighting' for them to give their very best, but both have this incredibly engaging quality that's hard not to live with. of the two, I understand the 301 motor is better at resisting mains variations than the 401 model (Hifi Dave has a vintage article about this in his magazine stash and when I have time to trawl, I'll find it and scan it for the library).

All three decks are endearing, but being a 60's kid, I love the 401 and being a 'turntable person,' I love the TD124. Like I said though, a Techie in terms of 'fidelity,' would probably see them all off, so definitely a 'heart over head' choice...

Interesting thoughts Dave, appreciated.

The 1200/1210 isn't my main turntable but what I have re that was another itch, curiosity to see what was what re them. Lots being written and I had a bias against so I wanted to explore them. Well quiet a bit of money on, money I probably can't get back, I have I think explored this as much as I want to now - few lose ends to tie up - but I am pretty much done.

The idler drive idea, 'itch' is much more of a shot in the dark as bar an Inspire Enigma I have never heard one and I really don't want to embark on the same degree of expense and hassle the Technics project has been, which is why I created this thread. I was ready to pull the trigger on a Thorens 124 mk2 that Jack of BD Audio is selling, but failure to get back to me, even to say no I want to keep all the bits together has given me the space to weigh things up and I have decided to shelve this idea. Frankly paying the TV licence, central heating fuel, gas etc is a more sensible use of the money, than buying something I may like, but equally might not and might fail to sell on quickly.

I think I really need to hear these to decide to go forwards or not, and noise transmission into the platter re a wheel drive, even in a well sorted version concerns me. Is that the cause of the sound I think these decks have, the flavour I didn't like in the Enigma, only further listening will reveal that and my opportunities to do that in NI are very limited. Anyway for now its all moot.


Regards Neil

[petrat]

I was ready to pull the trigger on a Thorens 124 mk2 that Jack of BD Audio is selling, but failure to get back to me, even to say no I want to keep all the bits together has given me the space to weigh things up and I have decided to shelve this idea.

Just to note that, of all the many dealers I have dealt with, Jack at BD has always been notable for his excellent communication ... usually responding within minutes using his smart-phone ... even when I wasn't buying ... so, very out of character. However, IME it is a very common problem with hifi dealers, so maybe he's caught the disease :(

[Spectral Morn]

Just to note that, of all the many dealers I have dealt with, Jack at BD has always been notable for his excellent communication ... usually responding within minutes using his smart-phone ... even when I wasn't buying ... so, very out of character. However, IME it is a very common problem with hifi dealers, so maybe he's caught the disease :(

Hi Peter

Maybe so, I have no experience of him other than meeting him at NAS a few years ago, sat in his room liked what I heard and gave the room a positive comment in a show report I wrote. The item in question was his own TD124, and I asked if he would sell it sans the isolation feet and or the plinth ( +a few other questions) as I was only really after the deck. No reply has appeared and I checked my spam box just in case his reply was there. His site allows no way to contact except via his on site emailer, so maybe it failed. I prefer emailing to phoning initially.

Anyway I have been afforded an opportunity to re think things and be sensible about perusing this itch or not, so I have decided not to now.


Regards Neil