VW looking at the situation without the software

[Audio Al]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPrB3C1v0iA&feature=youtu.be

Is this the reality :lol:

[Macca]

That's pretty clean burning compared to some of the knackered old buses round here.

Seriously though, VW in a lot of trouble. Could be the end of the marque.

[Audio Advent]

Could be the end of the marque.

That won't happen - whoever owns it, it will carry on. A marque is often bigger than any present snapshot of a company - even just on the back of the love of old beetles, old Golfs, campervans, all the aircooled models the marque would be carried on in some form or another.

As the company is today... yes, could well be the end of it but I'm not too bothered as I've no love for modern cars anyway and much of the car industry is riding on the back of banking industry credit and debt bubble - GM for example makes much much more money on getting people into debt than it does on its cars. Next credit crunch and world recession will see a few more big car firms go down the pan on the basis that the debt can't be paid back, triggering another CDS incident (Credit-Default Swap) and no country ready to bail out the likes of AIG again to the tune of another $100 billion.

[Macca]

As the company is today... yes, could well be the end of it .

Yes, that's what I meant. Those old classics like the camper van will carry on gaining in value, no doubt about that.

[Covenant]

You can now check if your car is affected on line by entering your cars VIN and yes, my Scirocco is one.
It will be a huge disappointment if the cars performance or fuel economy is badly affected. ATM I get 60+ mpg, the car is really nippy and is only £30 a year to tax. I don't want anything to change!

[Ali Tait]

Is that actual mpg or what the computer tells you?

[NRG]

Tax should not be affected as that is based on CO2 emmissions, the biggy is the NOx emmissions which are vary nasty...

[Covenant]

Is that actual mpg or what the computer tells you?

Just the computer but the consumption is a lot better than the diesel Lexus I had previously

[anthonyTD]

Diesels have always been, and always will be worse on harmful emissions than Petrol, or gas etc, mainly due to the Knox, and particulate content they throw out, bugger testing them for Co2 content, that’s just a fraction of what comes out, they should be tested on the whole emission content, at idle, and at realistic driving situations, and then be evaluated.
Diesel has a higher calorific value than Petrol, hence it has a higher energy potential, however, to gain the rewards from it, diesel engines are predominantly low revving, ie; they need burn time to make use of the higher calorific value, hence, when you rev a diesel engine, the less efficient it becomes as the fuel just goes out the exhaust pipe in the form of Soot, and other harmful emissions.
We were conned from the start, all VW did was fudge the outcome a little more, and lets not kid ourselves, people bought Diesel cars for the potential financial savings, and not for the potential enviromental savings that were promoted by the lower Tax revenue etc.

[agk]

I can't believe people actually thought diesel could be at all clean given the black smoke guffing out the back on throttle.

VAG will survive and thrive. Look at Germany now, who lost the second world war?

[shane]

Just a thought. All these emission tests that are carried out on cars measure the amount of unpleasantness emitted per mile driven. Given that there's a fixed amount of fossil fuel left and that it's irrelevant how far we crawl a cross the face of the earth in he process of burning it, shouldn't we be be measuring the amount of emission per unit of fuel burnt?

[struth]

Dont think taxing cars as such into classez works or is fair tbh. There are lots of folk who get taxed a pittance for a car that produces smaller emmisions but does a lot more miles thus more pollution than i do. I get charged a pound for every 10 miles plus petrol. Its not a dirty car. Person next door gets charged 1 pound for every 100 miles but the car it not 10 times as efficient or anywhere near. Its just a lot of bollocks.

[lurcher]

Dont think taxing cars as such into classez works or is fair tbh. There are lots of folk who get taxed a pittance for a car that produces smaller emmisions but does a lot more miles thus more pollution than i do. I get charged a pound for every 10 miles plus petrol. Its not a dirty car. Person next door gets charged 1 pound for every 100 miles but the car it not 10 times as efficient or anywhere near. Its just a lot of bollocks.

Not sure I understand what you are saying here. There are various taxation pressures trying to alter owner and manufacturer behaviour. The emission tax class is aimed at promoting cleaner (CO2 wise at least) cars and that certainly affects the fleet sales maybe more than the personal purchase (look at the CO2 numbers for small engine 3 series BMW for example). The fuel tax pushes for more efficient cars (not saying thats why they do it, but its the result).

[walpurgis]

I bought my car because it was zero tax and the 65mpg doesn't hurt either.

[struth]

I would replace it but can't. I only do 2000 odd miles and need a high car to get in and out. Its a focus engine but is silly money for little miles.

[walpurgis]

Is it a diesel Grant. There are quite a few diesels that have a high access and have sensible running costs.

[struth]

No its petrol Geoff. C max. About only car I can get into comfortably. Used ti get free tax when wife was alive. Probably should go for disability myself but dont want to. They treat you like shite

[mikmas]

Agree on the nonsensical disparities of the car tax method ... tax all owners on how much they use in terms of road miles per annum and MPG.

Best way IMV is to levy all tax at the pump so those who use most contribute more to maintenance of roads and environmental clean up. Might push business users to think even more of types of vehicle they use in terms of fuel efficiency and impact.

[anthonyTD]

Quite agree,
Its the most logical solution, the more you use your car, the more you pay, simples!
A...
Agree on the nonsensical disparities of the car tax method ... tax all owners on how much they use in terms of road miles per annum and MPG.

Best way IMV is to levy all tax at the pump so those who use most contribute more to maintenance of roads and environmental clean up. Might push business users to think even more of types of vehicle they use in terms of fuel efficiency and impact.

[walpurgis]

The perception is that vehicles using fossil fuels are polluters and harmful to the environment and people, but what evidence is there? What impact is there and how far does the emissions clean-up really need to be taken? Electric cars are not a viable option yet and electricity generation creates its own pollution in any case, unless more nuclear energy is used of course and that creates a whole other set of very undesirable issues.

The case for cleaner emissions for vehicles seems about as clear as the 'global warming' argument. Thirty or so years ago we were warned about an impending new Ice Age, not rising world temperatures. So what is fact and what is agenda driven hype?

[struth]

The maki!g of all the stuff in battery cars and disposal of after its fairly short life has to considered too. The global warming debate was initially a project by the Thatcher govt to push for more nuclear sites. Moneys were given to groups and more given to groups that came to the conclusions desired. This went on around the western world until it became a living breathing pseudo fact. Anyone then disagreeing with this line was non financed and rideculed etc.

[anthonyTD]

In a perfect world, Polution control at source would be the best solution, ie; you produce clean electricity, then supply the railways, and electric transport in cities, Electric cars for personal use would need to be much better than the junk they are promoting at the moment, battery, or power storage technology is the real key to this, however, we do not live in a perfect world, and most humans have a price where they are prepaired to sell out, for the sake of personal financial gains, the railways in the UK should have been converted to Electric as far back as the 1960's, when steam was being phased out, but we all know what happend, we ended up going over to dirty, smelly Diesels, instead, who's decision was that ? Either way, you can bet someone made a killing!
Just imagine how far ahead we would have been now with Electricity supplies, and Electric vehicles, if the right decision was made all those years ago.

[Firebottle]

No its petrol Geoff. C max. About only car I can get into comfortably.

Have you considered a Citroen Berlingo or Peugeot Partner Grant. Plenty of older models now at little money.

We have a 13 year old 1.9 standard diesel and it's been very reliable. A bit gutless but depends what you want.

:)

[struth]

Funny but nearly bought one b4 this car but wife didnt like it. Much would depend on difference in price plus condition. Mine is in goid nick with very low mileage. 46k for a 05 plate is pretty low. I only did half that and got it when it was 3 years old.

[Ali Tait]

Not sure I understand what you are saying here. There are various taxation pressures trying to alter owner and manufacturer behaviour. The emission tax class is aimed at promoting cleaner (CO2 wise at least) cars and that certainly affects the fleet sales maybe more than the personal purchase (look at the CO2 numbers for small engine 3 series BMW for example). The fuel tax pushes for more efficient cars (not saying thats why they do it, but its the result).

Are we sure BMW haven't been fudging their figures too? :-)

[lurcher]

Are we sure BMW haven't been fudging their figures too? :-)

No, not at all, but I was just pointing out how the tax bands combined with fleet managers seems to directly set the target for the 3 series emissions. And conversely, by hitting those targets, I think they cleaned up in the fleet market.

Though with VW, it looks like Bosch have the smoking gun given they state they wrote test software for VW and informed them it would not be legal for road use.