View Full Version : Goldpoint SA4M-47 passive 'preamp' winging its way to Marco Towers...
After a lot of humming and hawing (because after some recent tube upgrades in the Croft, it's sounding better than ever, and I just wasn't sure if it was worth investing in a quality passive), I've said 'fuck it', taken the plunge, and ordered an SA4M-47:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/905/OTFEGt.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/s2YhGD.jpg
...with 50K stepped attenuators and black satin knobs! :)
It's due to arrive in 5 working days time, so should be here for next weekend. Let's hope it turns out to be a *viable* alternative to the Croft, and doesn't end up as an ornament! :dummy: :beer:
Oh, I'll be putting my Tisbury passive up for sale, so if anyone fancies a good deal on that, pop me a PM.
Marco.
DarrenHW
25-09-2015, 17:36
Exciting!!!!
Firebottle
25-09-2015, 18:05
Like the 'f*ck it' bit :lol:
I will be very interested to hear your comparison with this and the Croft. I'm veering to prefer an active pre with a limited gain, having built the equivalent of a passive into a few of my amplifiers previously.
Intriguing times,
Alan
Exciting!!!!
Lol - it is, as it's a new toy to play with! I was all set to order one a few weeks back, and then I did a bit of tube-rolling in the Croft, which resulted in it sounding better than it ever has done, and I thought to myself: 'Do I really need a passive preamp?' :hmm:
Then I looked at the spec of the Goldpoint, the fact that I've always wanted to have dual-mono volume controls, especially with 47 steps, to provide much more control over the volume than I have now - and rather importantly considered my passion for identifying 'high SPPV' products for AoS (although I believe some others here have already tried a Goldpoint), I decided to push the button.
I'm confident that it'll be a good acquisition... Full report to follow, when it arrives! :cool:
Marco.
I will be very interested to hear your comparison with this and the Croft. I'm veering to prefer an active pre with a limited gain, having built the equivalent of a passive into a few of my amplifiers previously.
Intriguing times,
Indeed, Alan, particularly as Chris is also sending me an LDR to try, so it'll be a shoot-out between a top-notch valve preamp, passive and LDR... Who will be the WINNER?? :fence: :lol: :lol:
Marco.
all right for some eh?;) :lol:
The losing item will be donated to a selected Bathgate charity. Know of any worthy causes? :D
Marco.
The losing item will be donated to a selected Bathgate charity. Know of any worthy causes? :D
Marco.
yup...me; I'm a charity case if ever there was one; and need another passive :lol:
I think you should add a TVC to the triumvirate. :D
Regardless, I will be interested in your findings.
Lol - if anyone wants to donate a TVC, for the purpose of the review, I'm up for giving it a listen! :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-09-2015, 20:51
And an AVC..
And an AVC..
Is that an "attenuator volume control", or an "autoformer volume control"?
Ali Tait
25-09-2015, 21:20
The latter. I'm using these-
http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html
Interesting stuff, Ali... I think it's going to be a good preamp bake-off at the next NEBO. In my corner, I'll bring the Croft, the Goldpoint and LDR. I always find these comparisons act as a valuable learning curve, as well as being good fun! :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-09-2015, 21:30
Aye, looking forward to it.
walpurgis
25-09-2015, 21:31
The latter. I'm using these-
http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html
Yes. I've had a look at those. Quite tempted, even though I've ordered a batch of LDRs to play with.
I reckon your pre may cause a bit of a stir Ali. :D
I reckon so too, although in reality, it'll largely be about what matches the partnering power amp (and system) best on the day.
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-09-2015, 21:36
Yep, they need lowish output impedance from sources to give of their best.
Shipped yesterday, so she's on her way! :carrot: :carrot:
Marco.
Well, she's here! :thumbsup:
First impressions are very positive, as the SA4M-47 has a wonderfully wide-open, detailed and lucid sound, with plenty of drive and 'attack', but also 'relaxed' and easy on the ear, with zero listening fatigue factor. It seems to have a very well-judged sonic balance, or perhaps it's just extremely transparent and showing precisely what my source components sound like?
Anyway, I'm going to let the unit run in for a few days (to allow the resistors to burn-in fully), and play around with the feedback settings on my Copper amp. I suspect that there's some mileage to be had there in terms of optimising things further, before forming any conclusive opinions, as I can hear the sound opening up more and more as I listen.
One thing I have to say is that the build quality (fit and finish) on the Goldpoint is in the highest rank and worthy of that found on far more expensive devices. It really is a lovely thing. Furthermore, the stepped attenuators are silky smooth and feel very 'positive' in use.
So far so good! More later, muchachos, as I get properly used to what it's doing in my system :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
30-09-2015, 15:56
I'll be interested to hear what you make of it once you've 'attuned' your ears to what it does Marco.
The Black Adder
30-09-2015, 15:56
Cool.... let us know how you get on. :)
I'll be interested to hear what you make of it once you've 'attuned' your ears to what it does Marco.
That's precisely what I'm doing now, Geoff, and I'm liking very much what I'm hearing :)
From experience, after fitting the DACT stepped attenuator on the Croft, I know that things get better the more the resistors are used and processing a music signal, so that's why I'm not forming any conclusive opinions yet.
The dual-mono stepped attenuators on the Goldpoint, having 47 steps, also work quite differently, in terms of where my favourite volume level kicks in, from how that happens on the 24-position DACT stereo stepped attenuator on the Croft (and also with that being active), so I'm acclimatising to that effect, too.
However, even at this early stage, I can say that the Goldpoint is defo a keeper! :cool:
Marco.
Will be interesting to see how it stacks up against the NVA P90SA. The cost is very similar. How much did they sting you in duty and tax?
Lol - that's a sore point... £115! :eek:
Still, given what I'm hearing (and the build quality of the unit), it was worth it :)
Marco.
Yup, we can compare it with your NVA, no problem. I'll also be bringing the Goldpoint to NEBO :)
Marco.
I did find that my NVA improved with the resistors burning in. I was unaware that this would happen but heard it anyway. Don't forget you have to burn in each step individually. :)
Indeed... However, I doubt I'll be using any of the ones after the 1 o'clock position on the dials, unless I want to deafen myself! :)
All resistors (and caps) benefit from burning in. I've experienced the effect many times, so those used on stepped attenuators should be no different. To that end, I've left a CD on repeat (with the Goldpoint set at my favourite level for normal listening and the Copper amp off), whilst we're having our dinner and watching some TV.
Marco.
walpurgis
30-09-2015, 17:35
Yup, we can compare it with your NVA, no problem. I'll also be bringing the Goldpoint to NEBO :)
Marco.
Shame I'm not nearer. My MingDa TVC would make a very interesting comparison.
orbscure
30-09-2015, 17:44
Will be interesting to see how it stacks up against the NVA P90SA. The cost is very similar
:popcorn: I'm looking forward to an unbiased view of the P90sa vs the Goldpoint... I once owned the former and regret moving it on :doh:
[mischievous mode on] Perhaps a blind test with the listeners not wearing their blinkers is in order :eyebrows: [mischievous mode off]
No need, Pete. I've listened to NVA kit before (with Macca), and praised it, because I liked how it sounded, so next time will be no different. If the NVA is preferred on the day, in the context of the test system, then that's what will be reported :)
Marco.
Shame I'm not nearer. My MingDa TVC would make a very interesting comparison.
Indeed. Maybe one day, you'll leave 'old stinky' and move further north, where real life exists? ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
30-09-2015, 18:20
Indeed. Maybe one day, you'll leave 'old stinky' and move further north? ;)
Marco.
Not likely. Further south more like it. Portugal may appeal, the Azores or Malta even maybe (hope the Hi-Fi works there) :).
Lol - even less chance of a bake-off then, but a better chance of a suntan! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Just a small further update... As expected, the sound is opening up and 'fleshing out' even further, as slowly everything burns in :)
From experience, I'd expect that process to continue for the next week or so. The Goldpoint is starting to sound rather special now. It really is a very lucid, detailed and highly revealing performer, with little overt sonic signature of its own, and those dual-mono steppers really do provide superb stereo separation!
As good as the Tisbury was, the SA4M-47 is an altogether more refined and sonically accomplished design, as indeed one would expect with the difference in price. It'll be interesting seeing at what point the sound stops improving and the level of performance this unit is capable of when fully 'run in'. If it continues improving the way it has done in the last few hours, then without doubt it'll be one of the best passives I've heard, and a veritable competitor for the Croft.
Nice one - another blind punt from the Marco-boy has paid off handsomely! :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
30-09-2015, 22:13
Just wait until I've built my LDR job matey!
(it'll probably be crap, but you never know :D)
Lol - doubt it, knowing your skilleroonies.... Love the new avvy, btw! :flasher: :respect:
Marco.
[Edit: you've changed it again!]
walpurgis
30-09-2015, 22:16
Just having a bit of fun swapping avatars about!
Who knows? I might keep a naughty one.
Lol - doubt it, knowing your skilleroonies.... Love the new avvy, btw! :flasher: :respect:
Marco.
[Edit: you've changed it again!]
I preferred the previous one :eek:
Yes, that's the one I was referring to! Maybe he's chickened out ;)
Marco.
you mean his wife could have seen it ? :D:scratch:
Just having a bit of fun swapping avatars about!
Who knows? I might keep a naughty one.
15425
Thats got to be the "Boss Mode" avatar :D
walpurgis
30-09-2015, 22:27
Probably be this one soon. :D
Lol - you've gone boring again! :eyebrows:
Anyway, as the Goldpoint is starting to settle in now, and I'm loving how it's sounding, I've decided to carry out one of their approved mods, detailed in this section of their website, under the title of: "It does not get loud enough soon enough" (scroll down past the other section outlining the opposite effect, and go down to the bottom):
http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html
It involves simply fixing a resistor of the same value as the stepped attenuators (50K), at the point shown in the diagram. I'm doing this because, although the sound is excellent, nothing much happens, volume-wise, up until around 9 o'clock on the dials, which kind of defeats the purpose of having the available steps beforehand.
Therefore, as it says on the website, I want to "reduce the number of silent, unusable knob positions", in my case, before the 9 o' clock position, and bring it more in line with how the DACT stepped attenuator on the Croft operates in that respect.
So I'm popping along to Dunc's (Tubehunter) later to get that done. I'll report later on what effect it has, as others contemplating purchasing a Goldpoint may encounter a similar issue, unless their source components have exceptionally high gain.
Marco.
I don't understand why you would want to do this. You are adding an extra and unnecessary resistor into the signal path. So what if you will never use the first few steps on the dial?
It's just a little annoying that the initial few knob positions don't really do much. Also, that's not meant to happen, and is likely because my older Sony DAC has a lower output voltage than modern DACs/CDPs do, which the Goldpoint has probably been designed to be used with.
That is why they mention the mod, in order to offer some flexibility. It's only one resistor, and if it's of good quality (which it will be), I can't see there being an issue. However, I will of course be comparing the 'before and after' effect, so if there is any audible degradation in sound quality, after fitting the resistor, then it'll be removed and I'll leave things as they were.
No harm in trying it, though! :)
Marco.
Dauntless
01-10-2015, 16:06
Lol - you've gone boring again! :eyebrows:
Anyway, as the Goldpoint is starting to settle in now, and I'm loving how it's sounding, I've decided to carry out one of their approved mods, detailed in this section of their website, under the title of: "It does not get loud enough soon enough" (scroll down past the other section outlining the opposite effect, and go down to the bottom):
http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html
It involves simply fixing a resistor of the same value as the stepped attenuators (50K), at the point shown in the diagram. I'm doing this because, although the sound is excellent, nothing much happens, volume-wise, up until around 9 o'clock on the dials, which kind of defeats the purpose of having the available steps beforehand.
Therefore, as it says on the website, I want to "reduce the number of silent, unusable knob positions", in my case, before the 9 o' clock position, and bring it more in line with how the DACT stepped attenuator on the Croft operates in that respect.
So I'm popping along to Dunc's (Tubehunter) later to get that done. I'll report later on what effect it has, as others contemplating purchasing a Goldpoint may encounter a similar issue, unless their source components have exceptionally high gain.
Marco.
My Goldpoint is the same but by the 12 o'clock position produces a healthy volume in my room. As I leave the volume control where it finishes at the end of listening it's not a problem for me.
Hi Michael,
Yup, no worries. I didn't go for the added resistor mod in the end, but something else that is *much* better and that has not only cured the issue I had [with low volume output in the early control positions of the stepped attenuators] but improved the sound no end at the same time, by leaving only ONE resistor in the signal path (instead of 47), but still giving me the adjustment of 47 steps!
It now sounds INCREDIBLE... :eek: :wow:
Can't discuss it here, but if anyone wants to know the details of the mod, pop me a PM :)
Marco.
Hi Michael,
Yup, no worries. I didn't go for the added resistor mod in the end, but something else that is *much* better and that has not only cured the issue I had [with low volume output in the early control positions of the stepped attenuators] but improved the sound no end at the same time, by leaving only ONE resistor in the signal path (instead of 47), but still giving me the adjustment of 47 steps!
It now sounds INCREDIBLE... :eek: :wow:
Can't discuss it here, but if anyone wants to know the details of the mod, pop me a PM :)
Marco.
so its not heading to charity towers then :rfl:
Lol - no chance, with the way its sounding now! :nono: :)
Might have a Croft preamp up for grabs, though... ;)
Marco.
Shows how loud you lot listen at. It's nine o'clock and UNDER that I need careful control over :rolleyes:
The Black Adder
01-10-2015, 18:01
Lol - no chance, with the way its sounding now! :nono: :)
Might have a Croft preamp up for grabs, though... ;)
Marco.
Just have it converted as an outstanding phono stage! - That's what I'd do if anything came along that was better for the line stage.
I know, mate. Too right! No way is the Croft going anywhere :nono:
Like you say, it's still got a superb phono stage on board, and I've not came to a conclusive opinion yet as to whether the Goldpoint acts as a better line stage. It certainly sounds fab, but it's not necessarily better than the Croft.
That decision will be made once the Goldpoint has run-in fully :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
01-10-2015, 18:41
I know, mate. Too right! No way is the Croft going anywhere :nono:
Like you say, it's still got a superb phono stage on board, and I've not came to a conclusive opinion yet as to whether the Goldpoint acts as a better line stage. It certainly sounds fab, but it's not necessarily better than the Croft.
That decision will be made once the Goldpoint has run-in fully :)
Marco.
That's what I found with passives. I've tried a few in the past. They are superb, but are different rather than better than a good active pre. I could very easily live with one that's for sure but the Croft seems to be drawing me back each time.
Does your Croft have a tape-out? - If so, simply hook that up to the passive to use the phono stage. It's a direct signal bypassing the attenuator. :)
I have found them to be a little gutless compared to an active pre. They do somethings well, nice and airy with good acoustic space and a big soundstage, but don,t always have the balls of a good pre.
Maybe I haven't tried a good passive. I believe the Goldpoint is up there with the best.
Good luck Marco.
The Black Adder
01-10-2015, 19:10
I have found them to be a little gutless compared to an active pre. They do somethings well, nice and airy with good acoustic space and a big soundstage, but don,t always have the balls of a good pre.
Maybe I haven't tried a good passive. I believe the Goldpoint is up there with the best.
Good luck Marco.
Those were my findings too, Jim. It's very easy to get hooked on the airiness and the detail retrieval. I certainly did and lived with it for a month or so. But one day, I put an album on (to which I had never played with the passive) and because I wasn't expecting the difference I just couldn't get it out of my head how I was used to hearing it. I switched it back to the active and everything slotted together.
This is something Marco needs to figure out between the Goldpoint and the Croft.
I've always said that in my experience, they are different, not worse or better... it's down to taste and your expectance to hear what is correct, it just takes time to figure it out.
montesquieu
01-10-2015, 19:10
I have found them to be a little gutless compared to an active pre. They do somethings well, nice and airy with good acoustic space and a big soundstage, but don,t always have the balls of a good pre.
Maybe I haven't tried a good passive. I believe the Goldpoint is up there with the best.
Good luck Marco.
Kind of agree ... though I did enjoy a top notch (£5k in today's money) MFA MkII for good while, at the end of the day I was glad when I put a proper tube preamp back in. (Albeit it was a Shindo that convinced me to go back in that direction).
I've always seemed to enjoy passives more for what they DON'T do than for what they do. But what a really GOOD tube preamp DOES, it's easy to forgive.
Crofts are all very good SVP£ but far from the last word as a tube preamp.
But all part of the learning curve.
Hi Jo,
That's what I found with passives. I've tried a few in the past. They are superb, but are different rather than better than a good active pre. I could very easily live with one that's for sure but the Croft seems to be drawing me back each time.
Yup, that's what I had always found before I tried the Tisbury. And because that sounded nothing like the soft and lacklustre passives I'd heard before, and had all the drive and attack of a good active preamp, it got me thinking!
Where the Tisbury lost out to the Croft, was not in terms of 'balls' or drive, but in more subtle things, such as texture, vocal phrasing and tonal shading, where the Croft was more accomplished and refined sounding, making the Tisbury sound a little 'rushed' and unsubtle in comparison.
The Goldpoint, especially now since the mod Duncan has carried out, has levelled the playing field, in terms of what the Tisbury was lacking, whilst having all the 'balls'/drive/punch of the Croft, so it really is quite something! :)
Does your Croft have a tape-out? - If so, simply hook that up to the passive to use the phono stage. It's a direct signal bypassing the attenuator.
Yup it does, and that's exactly how I've been listening to vinyl :cool:
Marco.
Hi Jim,
I have found them to be a little gutless compared to an active pre. They do somethings well, nice and airy with good acoustic space and a big soundstage, but don,t always have the balls of a good pre.
Maybe I haven't tried a good passive. I believe the Goldpoint is up there with the best.
Good luck Marco.
Cheers, Jim. Trust me, the Goldpoint is in no way gutless :eek: Whether you'd like how it sounds overall, is another question, but lacking 'cohonas' is doesn't! :)
Marco.
Hi Tom,
I've always seemed to enjoy passives more for what they DON'T do than for what they do. But what a really GOOD tube preamp DOES, it's easy to forgive.
Crofts are all very good SVP£ but far from the last word as a tube preamp.
Indeed, but mine (and Jo's) is somewhat of a departure from any Croft that's sold now! ;)
It's been heavily modified, with all sorts of tasty bits inside, not least of which are the bigger octal-type valves (6SL7s), which make the ECC83s (and the like) used in current Croft preamps sound positively limp and anaemic... As such, I'd quite happily put it up against other valve preamps on the market at any price :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
02-10-2015, 06:05
Hi Tom,
Indeed, but mine (and Jo's) is somewhat of a departure from any Croft that's sold now! ;)
It's been heavily modified, with all sorts of tasty bits inside, not least of which are the bigger octal-type valves (6SL7s), which make the ECC83s (and the like) used in current Croft preamps sound positively limp and anaemic... As such, I'd quite happily put it up against other valve preamps on the market at any price :)
Marco.
Indeed... The current pre's are good but once you have dipped in to what can be done with the older Octal valves there is no going back.
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Tannoyista%20System/Tannoyista%20system%20update%202015/DSC00597_2.jpg
Also, my pre should be back with me on Monday, it's had another upgrade to 6SN7's in the line stage keeping 6SL7's in the phono. So now it uses 3 6SN7's and 6SL7's whilst utilising the dual regulation. Should be very interesting. :) - I'll bring it over, Marco for a listen very soon :)
Sounds very interesting, matey. Look forward to that! :)
Marco.
Indeed... The current pre's are good but once you have dipped in to what can be done with the older Octal valves there is no going back.
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Tannoyista%20System/Tannoyista%20system%20update%202015/DSC00597_2.jpg
Also, my pre should be back with me on Monday, it's had another upgrade to 6SN7's in the line stage keeping 6SL7's in the phono. So now it uses 3 6SN7's and 6SL7's whilst utilising the dual regulation. Should be very interesting. :) - I'll bring it over, Marco for a listen very soon :)
Would love to hear that Jo!:)
Those were my findings too, Jim. It's very easy to get hooked on the airiness and the detail retrieval. I certainly did and lived with it for a month or so. But one day, I put an album on (to which I had never played with the passive) and because I wasn't expecting the difference I just couldn't get it out of my head how I was used to hearing it. I switched it back to the active and everything slotted together.
This is something Marco needs to figure out between the Goldpoint and the Croft.
I've always said that in my experience, they are different, not worse or better... it's down to taste and your expectance to hear what is correct, it just takes time to figure it out.
I've found it is easy to get hooked on the lack of distortion and glare that adding another pointless gain stage to the system causes. All passives are not created equal and I did find a lac of balls - that is a lack of impact on percussion and a lack of drive in the bass - with the Tisbury, but not with the NVA I currently use. If you mainly listen to vinyl it is almost a non-issue but with a digital source the improvement is not subtle. Correct matching to the power amp also needs to be considered, but I have tried more than half a dozen power amps now, all with good results. IME adding an extra gain stage after a DAC or CD player is the main reason for dissatisfaction with digital playback.
Stratmangler
02-10-2015, 08:28
The Goldpoint, especially now since the mod Duncan has carried out, has levelled the playing field, in terms of what the Tisbury was lacking, whilst having all the 'balls'/drive/punch of the Croft, so it really is quite something! :)
How can something passive have balls, drive & punch?
All a passive anything can do is subtract from the signal.
The Black Adder
02-10-2015, 09:01
I've found it is easy to get hooked on the lack of distortion and glare that adding another pointless gain stage to the system causes. All passives are not created equal and I did find a lac of balls - that is a lack of impact on percussion and a lack of drive in the bass - with the Tisbury, but not with the NVA I currently use. If you mainly listen to vinyl it is almost a non-issue but with a digital source the improvement is not subtle. Correct matching to the power amp also needs to be considered, but I have tried more than half a dozen power amps now, all with good results. IME adding an extra gain stage after a DAC or CD player is the main reason for dissatisfaction with digital playback.
Indeed, but you could say that about active gain stages too. :) I don't know enough about active pre's in how they are designed and constructed, I leave that up to guys like Nick, Glenn and Anthony to name a few. But I'd say that with either choice, the design and synergy with the source, amp and speakers plays a big part.
Good, well designed passive pre's are simply a different flavor to actives... no better, no worse and 'can' have a knack of confusingly taking the middle ground.
Very true but if you take Marco's Croft pre - and if that was a commercial item it would be in the region of £10K to £15K new - and it is not clear cut as to whether it is better than the Goldpoint passive which is only £600 new - it puts a different perspective on it.
How can something passive have balls, drive & punch?
All a passive anything can do is subtract from the signal.
The balls, drive and punch are a function of the recording, the power amp and the speakers. The passive is not adding but not taking (much) away either. The active will add glare and distortion - although having heard Marco's Croft in a couple of systems it doesn't add much if any crap to the signal. But it is a very expensive, bespoke bit of kit.
Stratmangler
02-10-2015, 09:30
The balls, drive and punch are a function of the recording, the power amp and the speakers. The passive is not adding but not taking (much) away either. The active will add glare and distortion - although having heard Marco's Croft in a couple of systems it doesn't add much if any crap to the signal. But it is a very expensive, bespoke bit of kit.
I understand fully what was intended to be conveyed.
That the passive doesn't take much away from the signal is a given, but it wasn't put that way. The way things were put was arse about face, and that leads to fanciful ideas such as cables having sonic signatures.
It isn't a given that active preamps add glare - it depends on how well designed they are. I've heard a few that pass muster, and Marco's is one of them.
Very true but if you take Marco's Croft pre - and if that was a commercial item it would be in the region of £10K to £15K new - and it is not clear cut as to whether it is better than the Goldpoint passive which is only £600 new - it puts a different perspective on it.
15 k...thats a lot of balls:lol: my car didnt cost that.
The Black Adder
02-10-2015, 09:43
yep, a well designed active shouldn't add glare or detract too much from the signal just as much as a well designed passive shouldn't do the latter. Personally I like both. It would be great to have a pre that you could switch from active to passive with... :) That would be great because I'd expect that some music would suit better through different methods.
walpurgis
02-10-2015, 09:46
that leads to fanciful ideas such as cables having sonic signatures.
Not wishing to get into another circular debate about cables, but what are you saying?
Stratmangler
02-10-2015, 09:53
Not wishing to get into another circular debate about cables, but what are you saying?
I didn't say that cables don't matter :eyebrows:
awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 10:03
I understand fully what was intended to be conveyed.
That the passive doesn't take much away from the signal is a given, but it wasn't put that way. The way things were put was arse about face, and that leads to fanciful ideas such as cables having sonic signatures.
It isn't a given that active preamps add glare - it depends on how well designed they are. I've heard a few that pass muster, and Marco's is one of them.
But if you subscribe to the idea (as I do) that every component, including cables, causes harm, then cables WILL have a sonic signature. It's simply that some cause less harm than others. and the same will be true of pre-amps. Now, a component can also add something, but that will be an unnatural effect; if it sounds better to you then it's a good thing- for you! But everyone has different hearing (in a measurable way) plus we all listen differently which will affect what we hear. How many of us don't hear our partners say something we don't want to hear?
Being old and toothless i like to process the hell out of my signal.. My poor cd stuff gets shunted here there and everywhere...im surprised it sounds so good actually. Moral is if youve got everything close to right it wont matter much but if somethi!gs wrong even a short run can screw it up.
awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 10:12
yep, a well designed active shouldn't add glare or detract too much from the signal just as much as a well designed passive shouldn't do the latter. Personally I like both. It would be great to have a pre that you could switch from active to passive with... :) That would be great because I'd expect that some music would suit better through different methods.
I recently borrowed an Albarry PP1 integrated amplifier which has a switch for source or +16. I didn't realise at the time that meant passive (source) or active (+16) so I never tried it active! But it sounded nice passive. I will see if I can borrow it again, but I think it may have gone.
Oh, and it can be used as a pre! http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31045-Amazing-Albarrys/page2
http://webmail.hifi-forsale.co.uk/images/large_images/27145_4.jpg
BTW, I liked the look of it so I have bought some red Perspex to make a front panel for my LDR pre.
But if you subscribe to the idea (as I do) that every component, including cables, causes harm, then cables WILL have a sonic signature. It's simply that some cause less harm than others. and the same will be true of pre-amps. Now, a component can also add something, but that will be an unnatural effect; if it sounds better to you then it's a good thing- for you!
Agreed. The great sound is inherent to the disc/file. The only thing the kit can do is screw it up. There are no great sounding components, they all ruin the sound to some degree.
awkwardbydesign
02-10-2015, 10:20
Agreed. The great sound is inherent to the disc/file. The only thing the kit can do is screw it up. There are no great sounding components, they all ruin the sound to some degree.
I don't look at it that way. It will CHANGE it, but some changes sound* better.
* I don't claim they measure better, but subjectively it might be preferable. And that is where all the arguments start.
But if you subscribe to the idea (as I do) that every component, including cables, causes harm, then cables WILL have a sonic signature. It's simply that some cause less harm than others. and the same will be true of pre-amps. Now, a component can also add something, but that will be an unnatural effect; if it sounds better to you then it's a good thing- for you! But everyone has different hearing (in a measurable way) plus we all listen differently which will affect what we hear. How many of us don't hear our partners say something we don't want to hear?
:thumbsup: Very well put Richard. I agree totally!
The Black Adder
02-10-2015, 11:43
I recently borrowed an Albarry PP1 integrated amplifier which has a switch for source or +16. I didn't realise at the time that meant passive (source) or active (+16) so I never tried it active! But it sounded nice passive. I will see if I can borrow it again, but I think it may have gone.
Oh, and it can be used as a pre! http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31045-Amazing-Albarrys/page2
http://webmail.hifi-forsale.co.uk/images/large_images/27145_4.jpg
BTW, I liked the look of it so I have bought some red Perspex to make a front panel for my LDR pre.
I for one have never seen one of those before... looks interesting. You should try and give it another go for sure. :)
How can something passive have balls, drive & punch?
All a passive anything can do is subtract from the signal.
Yes of course.
What I meant was that good ones (well matched to the partnering power amp) lack nothing in those areas in comparison with an active design, i.e. they don't sound 'soft', as indeed can be the case with bad passives and/or ones not well suited to the rest of the kit :)
Marco.
Can I just point out that EVERY active preamp contains a passive preamp.
If the system requires the active part, the active preamp will sound better, if it doesnt then a passive preamp will sound better.
Good active preamps are a lot harder to design than most people imagine. Bad active preamps are easy.
Some people like what bad active preamps do because the result sounds better for them.
Few people dislike like what good active preamps can do, but because they are hard to make, most people have never heard one.
Its much easier to make a good passive than a good active.
To make a good active preamp, it needs to contain a good passive preamp
Most bad active preamps have a bad passive preamp in them as using a good passive is lost because of the bad active parts.
The Black Adder
02-10-2015, 12:59
If the system requires the active part, the active preamp will sound better, if it doesnt then a passive preamp will sound better.
An excellent way of looking at it, Nick :)
Gutless sonics from passive pres may also simply be the wrong value passive pot being fitted. My old Croft preamp uses a 500K log pair and I believe this is mainly so the phono stage (the earlier design, not as current) doesn't lose bass. Using the tape output to drive a separate headphone amp arrangement (less than 47k input impedance) caused the bass to disappear. Glenn has a mod to the phono stage for this, so it's not unknown to him.
What's got me with active preamps is actually how invasive they can be, especially the awful US valve ones from a few decades back. The revered ARC two-box preamps were more like sonic processors rather than neutral line stages and later LS designs of theirs weren't much better. hell, their 'Reference' preamp range has so many generations now (at eye-watering prices) it makes one ask if they'll ever get it right.
By the way, you can make a VERY truthful line stage with a couple of properly supplied ic op-amps or even one two-channel one - most CD players have one on the output to give the 2V as specified. It's not rocket science you know, but of course, Top End is all about making things look complex when they don't need to be. Marco, your Croft may well be the dogs danglies, but it's frighteningly complex looking inside now :eek:
The op amp was originally designed for use in analogue computers, and it was used very much for rocket science.
The Black Adder
02-10-2015, 16:41
Marco, your Croft may well be the dogs danglies, but it's frighteningly complex looking inside now :eek:
Hi Dave.
Not sure, but I take it that your looking at the pic I posted? The pic is actually mine inside and it's not that complex. Maybe the angle of the photo makes it look like that?
Mine is dual regulated which adds another set of regulation valves, it's PSU is also externalised so what you are seeing are those big caps and extra wiring because of it being dual regulated. Everything else in the line and phono is pretty much as it was from stock with the exception of a few caps which are simply replacements of the originals. So nothing has been added apart from on the power side of things. In fact, some things were simplified.
The Black Adder
02-10-2015, 16:44
The op amp was originally designed for use in analogue computers, and it was used very much for rocket science.
Now I didn't know that... you learn something every day. Interesting.
The Black Adder
02-10-2015, 16:46
Aaanyway, Marco moochacho, hows the Goldpoint sounding after today?
Now I didn't know that... you learn something every day. Interesting.
yep, just for a moment more off topic, the op part was short for operational, as in arithmetic operation such as addition, subtraction, multiplication, integration and so on. And they were of course originally valve based.
The Black Adder
02-10-2015, 17:04
how cool... It's great having little nuggets of information like that, Nick... :)
Firebottle
02-10-2015, 17:56
Yes there's nothing new in analogue electronics, it has all been mastered with valve designs many decades ago. By some very talented design engineers to boot :D
Arkless Electronics
02-10-2015, 18:58
probably the first application which crude valve op amps were put to was in electronically aimed ack ack guns in conjunction with early radar in WW2 ;)
Aaanyway, Marco moochacho, hows the Goldpoint sounding after today?
Sounding great, mate, but still going through some light tweakage. Dunc is adjusting how the stepped attenuators operate, in terms of attenuation, in order to optimise their use within the gain structure of my system :)
Marco.
Ok, just a little update on the above... As the unit has effectively been changed from a series to a shunt type (as it sounds markedly better that way), so that the signal, at any position on the dials, now only goes through one resistor in each channel, the value of those two resistors, as well as their inherent quality, is therefore critical.
In that respect, it's been rather interesting playing around with those resistor values (initially using inexpensive but decent quality metal-film types), in order to tailor the gain structure of my system to the volume levels available, at various positions on the controls of the Goldpoint, where it became obvious that the 50K value of the resistors originally fitted on the stepped attenuators were the reason for why I wasn't getting enough volume available on the early steps [e.g, 0-8 was virtually silent]...
Therefore, changing the value of the two resistors, initially to 10k, completely cured that problem, but made it too loud, so we changed them to 22K, which was just about right, but not quite, so I've now settled on 20K, which is perfect. It now means that normal listening levels, for me, occur at the 8 to 9 o'clock positions on the dials, and not the 11 to noon positions previously, which I found unnatural and somewhat counter-intuitive.
What this means now is that there is an opportunity to experiment with some 'audiophile quality' 20K resistors, and to that end I'm going to order from Hi-Fi Collective two each of the following:
Charcroft Z-Foils, AudioNote Tantalum (non-magnetics), Caddocks, PRPs, and for something a bit different, Amtrans AMRG carbon films, just to see what carbon sounds like compared with metal... All will be either 1 or 2W versions. You can read all about the various resistor types here: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/-c-61_62.html
The resistor 'bake-off' will be taking place on Tuesday this week, and the results of that will be posted here later on that evening, so it'll be very interesting hearing what happens and what turns out to be the winner!! :cool:
Marco.
Firebottle
04-10-2015, 09:51
It certainly will Marco, thanks for taking the time to do this.
:)
No worries, Alan. I have to admit to finding all of this fascinating, with the ability to fine-tune things to suit your system. Ok, so the unit is no longer standard (although the mods are easily reversible), but then neither is any of the other kit I use, so I guess it was only a matter of time before the Goldpoint was similarly modified! ;)
The fact is, it sounds markedly better now that it did when I first got it, and I still have the flexibility of all 47 different volume steps, together with the superb quality of the Goldpoint switches themselves, as well as that of the whole unit. If things can move forward, sonically, even more by fitting some audiophile quality resistors, as mentioned, then this little device will really be something special!
My report on the resistor comparisons may help others considering upgrading the resistors in their equipment, as it's always a rather unknown quantity (and somewhat of a lottery) choosing these things, so I'll do my best to describe what Duncan and I heard before each changeover of resistors, and will takes notes to that effect, so that I don't forget anything.
At the end of the experiment, I'll also have some cut-price high-quality resistors for sale, so folks can keep an eye out for that, too! :)
Marco.
I'm more concerned that Goldpoint chose to employ a series attenuator circuit topology, rather than shunt.
Regarding the setting for 'normal' listening levels, I find that if the angular range is centred around 12 o' clock (say minimum level at 7 o' clock to maximum at 5 o' clock), then I try to arrange things (output voltage from the individual sources) so that my normal listening level is at 12 o' clock.
That way you are sufficiently out of the noise floor, but have ample room to encompass the required dynamic range.
I should of course add that I assume the volume control has a logarithmic 'law'.
Been using metal films in my wad when changing values too. They are great for very little money.
Regarding the setting for 'normal' listening levels, I find that if the angular range is centred around 12 o' clock (say minimum level at 7 o' clock to maximum at 5 o' clock, then I try to arrange things (output voltage from the individual sources) so that my normal listening level is at 12 o' clock.
That way you are sufficiently out of the noise floor, but have ample room to encompass the required dynamic range.
We're obviously different in that respect then, Barry. I've always been used to my normal listening levels (say, 75-80db) to be achieved at around 8-9 o'clock on the volume knob of my preamp. We only measured 50db at that point on the dials of the Goldpoint, using white noise to test with (and an app on Duncan's iPhone), when the unit was standard.
Also, music reproduced, with the unit as standard, although good, sounded somewhat limp and 'weedy', in comparison with how it is now, which mirrors my experience in other areas whenever that effect has happened - and I don't like it.
For me, it's about optimising the gain structure in your system, and finding the 'sweet spot' where everything sonically clicks into place. In my system, that's achieved with the use of 20K resistors, and it gives me ample room to encompass the required dynamic range with all recordings.
Marco.
I'm lost here. I appreciate the point of changing from series to shunt but regards the amount of attenuation if you have 47 steps surely there was enough room on the dial for any volume level already? Or did you have to wind it up to 40 or more just to get an acceptable level?
Nope, it wasn't like that, Martin.
It's largely a matter of preference where your optimum listening level is achieved, in relation to the position on the volume dial. I simply like mine, in that respect, to be achieved at around the 8-9 o'clock position, and don't like having to wind the dial(s) round to after 12 noon before anything significant happens in terms of loudness.
I just find that unnatural, and with some low-level recordings, particularly with classical music, you can run out of dial space before reaching the listening level you want!
Also, what I find is that if the gain structure isn't right, and there isn't enough, let's call it overall 'oomph', no matter how much your turn it up, the sound lacks 'balls' and sounds limp and lacking in dynamic attack. There has to be a optimal amount of 'signal strength' (for want of a better description) present in the first place, to be amplified, in order for music to be accurately reproduced.
It's rather like in the old days when recording to tape. In my experience, when setting the recording level on a tape deck, there was always a 'sweet spot' where the sound clicked into place and just sounded 'right'... Not enough level made the the playback sound rather weak and inept, no matter how much you turned the volume up when listening, and too much level resulted in saturation, where conversely no matter how much you turned the volume down, everything still sounded too 'hard' and 'loud'.
Well, if you can understand that concept, it's essentially what I'm applying to the Goldpoint: tuning the playback levels of music in order to hit that same 'sweet spot', so that there is enough 'oomph' present in the signal path, in order for SQ to be optimised, in the same way as I've described with playing back recordings made on a tape deck. Hopefully, that makes some sort of sense now! :)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
04-10-2015, 11:37
I for one have never seen one of those before... looks interesting. You should try and give it another go for sure. :)
Unfortunately it has gone! But if I didn't already have a "do everything" back-up amp* I would probably have bought it myself. And if you can get one with the phono stage installed it would be very worth having, IMO.
*http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JungSon.htm I have split the pre and power sections, with a switch, but haven't replaced the coupling caps yet. I have some, and a pair of different op-amps for the phono stage, just too many other things to do. The LDR pre needs finishing off, I've just bought a new chef's blow torch to flame polish the edges of the red Perspex front. Why do I make my life so complicated? :doh:
I understand the idea of gain matching an active pre but not why it matters with a passive pre as there is no gain stage it is just progressive de-attenuation of the fixed-level signal it receives.
If it is just a fetishitic thing about where the volume knob is on the dial then I get that - but how can where the knob is on the dial actually affect the sound adversely unless, as you say. you run out of steps before reaching the required SPL?
Then you obviously don't understand my cassette deck analogy. That last bit, though, is rather important :)
I'm sorry, but I can't explain it any differently, other than to say if there isn't enough 'level' present in the music signal in the first place, then no matter how much you turn up the volume (on a passive or active preamp), you'll never be able to fully optimise the sound. And the value of resistors used, in that respect (in either a passive or active design) influences things massively!
If you can't 'get' that, then the only thing I can do is try and explain it better in person at NEBO, where perhaps others there able to understand what I'm getting at, will be able to explain it in a technical sense, and maybe that will help you grasp what I'm describing.
Perhaps if Nick is reading, he'll understand what I'm on about and can put it across better?
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
04-10-2015, 11:54
how cool... It's great having little nuggets of information like that, Nick... :)
Or not.
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jdit81svqk6y2p6ve6bj.jpg
Perhaps if Nick is reading, he'll understand what I'm on about and can put it across better?
Marco.
A brief technical explanation would be appreciated If someone would be kind enough to do so. I get your cassette deck analogy and recall the problem well from my taping days - don't record to low or you will lose the balls. I don't understand how that is related to matching a passive pre-amp, though. It isn't the same thing at all.
It's not the same thing technically, but in my experience it results in a similar thing, sonically. *That* is my point.
Essentially, it's about the 'input level'/loudness [I can't think of a better description] a power amp 'sees', from a preamp (passive or active), to be amplified, and that's a bit like setting the recording levels on a tape deck.
If the 'input level' of the music signal, in that respect is insufficient, then no matter what you do with the volume control afterwards, you'll still end up with a sound lacking in 'balls'...
And that 'input level' of the music signal, which the power amp 'sees', is controlled (at least that's what my ears tell me), by the value of resistors used on the output of the preamp (passive or active), which in my system is how I ended up with a value of 20K, thus allowing me the normal listening levels I desire at around the 8 or 9 o'clock position on the volume controls).
The lower you go in the 'K' value of those resistors, the louder things get, and the higher that value, the less loud it gets (just like lowering or increasing the recording level on a tape deck), thus influencing the playback level available (lower down on the volume controls) and overall sound accordingly.
Therefore, employing the use of, say, 47K resistors would result in there being much less 'loudness level' available, in the early stages of a stepped attenuator, than there would be had, say, 10K resistors been used instead.
Any clearer now? If not, I give up! :D
Marco.
This level thing as perceived on a volume control has changed from the 50's and 60's. Back then, volume pots and the overall gain was designed to have optimum listening at TWO THIRDS of the way up, so you have loads of spare travel for lower level listening - look at older Naim stuff using vinyl...
awkwardbydesign
04-10-2015, 13:23
This level thing as perceived on a volume control has changed from the 50's and 60's. Back then, volume pots and the overall gain was designed to have optimum listening at TWO THIRDS of the way up, so you have loads of spare travel for lower level listening - look at older Naim stuff using vinyl...
That's how my TVC is set. I would have thought that the closer you run a passive to max, the less there is in the way of the signal to the power amp.
This level thing as perceived on a volume control has changed from the 50's and 60's. Back then, volume pots and the overall gain was designed to have optimum listening at TWO THIRDS of the way up, so you have loads of spare travel for lower level listening - look at older Naim stuff using vinyl...
Yup, and I hate that, as I think it sounds shit!
Marco.
Ali Tait
04-10-2015, 14:29
Ok, just a little update on the above... As the unit has effectively been changed from a series to a shunt type (as it sounds markedly better that way), so that the signal, at any position on the dials, now only goes through one resistor in each channel, the value of those two resistors, as well as their inherent quality, is therefore critical.
In that respect, it's been rather interesting playing around with those resistor values (initially using inexpensive but decent quality metal-film types), in order to tailor the gain structure of my system to the volume levels available, at various positions on the controls of the Goldpoint, where it became obvious that the 50K value of the resistors originally fitted on the stepped attenuators were the reason for why I wasn't getting enough volume available on the early steps [e.g, 0-8 was virtually silent]...
Therefore, changing the value of the two resistors, initially to 10k, completely cured that problem, but made it too loud, so we changed them to 22K, which was just about right, but not quite, so I've now settled on 20K, which is perfect. It now means that normal listening levels, for me, occur at the 8 to 9 o'clock positions on the dials, and not the 11 to noon positions previously, which I found unnatural and somewhat counter-intuitive.
What this means now is that there is an opportunity to experiment with some 'audiophile quality' 20K resistors, and to that end I'm going to order from Hi-Fi Collective two each of the following:
Charcroft Z-Foils, AudioNote Tantalum (non-magnetics), Caddocks, PRPs, and for something a bit different, Amtrans AMRG carbon films, just to see what carbon sounds like compared with metal... All will be either 1 or 2W versions. You can read all about the various resistor types here: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/-c-61_62.html
The resistor 'bake-off' will be taking place on Tuesday this week, and the results of that will be posted here later on that evening, so it'll be very interesting hearing what happens and what turns out to be the winner!! :cool:
Marco.
I've done this in a couple of previous preamps Marco. I ended up with the AN resistors as my preference, though I never tried the Z foils and I suspect they may be better.
It's interesting how much of a difference it makes.
awkwardbydesign
04-10-2015, 14:31
I've done this in a couple of previous preamps Marco. I ended up with the AN resistors as my preference, though I never tried the Z foils and I suspect they may be better.
It's interesting how much of a difference it makes.
As I/V resistors in my DAC they are, but not used them elsewhere.
I've done this in a couple of previous preamps Marco. I ended up with the AN resistors as my preference, though I never tried the Z foils and I suspect they may be better.
It's interesting how much of a difference it makes.
Indeed, and I've never played around with resistors before, even in the Croft - only caps. Therefore, I'm really looking forward to hearing the results obtained, with the various types of resistors selected, in such a critical position on a passive preamp.
If it works well, then I may consider fitting the resistors deemed as sounding best in the phono stage of the Croft and/or in the Copper amp. That would be fun! :)
Btw, do you understand what I'm getting at here, and if you do, could you try and explain it to Macca:
Essentially, it's about the 'input level'/loudness [I can't think of a better description] a power amp 'sees', from a preamp (passive or active), to be amplified, and that's a bit like setting the recording levels on a tape deck.
If the 'input level' of the music signal, in that respect is insufficient, then no matter what you do with the volume control afterwards, you'll still end up with a sound lacking in 'balls'...
And that 'input level' of the music signal, which the power amp 'sees', is controlled (at least that's what my ears tell me), by the value of resistors used on the output of the preamp (passive or active), which in my system is how I ended up with a value of 20K, thus allowing me the normal listening levels I desire at around the 8 or 9 o'clock position on the volume controls).
The lower you go in the 'K' value of those resistors, the louder things get, and the higher that value, the less loud it gets (just like lowering or increasing the recording level on a tape deck), thus influencing the playback level available (lower down on the volume controls) and overall sound accordingly.
Therefore, employing the use of, say, 47K resistors would result in there being much less 'loudness level' available, in the early stages of a stepped attenuator, than there would be had, say, 10K resistors been used instead.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
04-10-2015, 14:52
Yep I get what you're driving at, I did the same to get a travel on the volume pot I liked. It may be that you weren't getting the sound you wanted because there were more resistors in the signal path(before the shunt mod)?
For me it was about getting the gain structure in my own system right as you say.
Good - I'm glad that I'm making sense to someone! :eyebrows:
Yes, there were two things originally that were sub-optimal with the Goldpoint (even though as standard it was far from shabby, and I could hear its potential), and that was the amount of resistors that were in-line with the music signal at low to medium volumes, thus degrading the sound, and that the 'loudness input level', controlled by the 'K' value of the resistors used, was too high, and so the resulting sound was somewhat 'limp and weedy'.
Therefore, both shunting the switch and lowering the resistor values has allowed the full potential of the device to be released - and it's not a subtle improvement either!
Like you say, it's about getting a "travel on the volume pot you like", but more importantly for me, supplying a 'juicy' enough signal to the power amp, to enable the overall sound produced by the system to have enough 'drive and balls' :)
Now that that those issues have been resolved (and perhaps it's one of the reasons why some folk find passives lacking in 'cojones'), it's all about maxing out SQ, by fitting the best sounding resistors. That done, I *suspect* the Goldpoint will oust the Croft for line-level duties, and that the latter will be employed for use as a phono stage only.
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
04-10-2015, 15:25
it's all about maxing out SQ, by fitting the best sounding resistors. That done, I *suspect* the Goldpoint will oust the Croft for line-level duties, and that the latter will be used as a phono stage only.
Marco.
I buy my Z-foils direct from Texas http://www.texascomponents.com/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=461 Up to 100k in this version, or 250k in t'other. Just watch the max voltage! And I get 0.1% tolerance; that should be close enough. But you will have to decide for yourself if they sound "best".
A couple of things come to mind. Though in theory the passive should do nothing to the sound, so at one third the sound should be the same as at two thirds but just quieter. Practice often doesn’t match theory, mainly because the theory is wrong.
Firstly, the input impedance seen by the source and the output impedance into the load will be different in the one and two thirds position, that will alter how everything works together, and also will alter how the cables interact with the components.
Secondly, at two thirds, even though the control has been converted into a shunt, I assume the attenuator is still a bunch of resistors in series, so the number of resistors that the signal sees will be different in both cases. Resistors have a sound. If there are 47 steps on the attenuator, at one third there will be 15 in series to ground, at two thirds that will be 30 resistors. I am willing to bet that 30 resistors in series will have more of a sound than 15 of them.
A pure shunt control avoids the last problem (though not the first) by only having the single resistor to ground at each position.
A pure shunt control avoids the last problem (though not the first) by only having the single resistor to ground at each position.
That's what I have in place now, Nick, as Duncan has wired the dual-mono switches that way :)
Agreed about cables, which is why I use nothing longer than 0.5m interconnects, with the Goldpoint - and high quality, low-capacitance (minimum loss, low attenuation) ones at that.
Marco.
That's what I have in place now, Nick, as Duncan has wired the switches that way :)
Agreed about cables, which is why I use nothing longer than 0.5m interconnects, with the Goldpoint - and high quality, low-capacitance (minimum loss, low attenuation) ones at that.
Marco.
Yes, resistive passives will be very sensitive to capacitance on the output side.
I thought the goldpoint was made using surface mount resistors on a PCB, how has it been converted to a shunt with a single resistor to ground?
Yes, resistive passives will be very sensitive to capacitance on the output side.
I thought the goldpoint was made using surface mount resistors on a PCB, how has it been converted to a shunt with a single resistor to ground?
Duncan rewired the switch and added a series resistor, so it becomes a shunt-type control. The signal now only goes through that one resistor, at any point on the volume knobs.
That's why I'm looking forward to fitting some Z-Foils, and the like, to take the place of that single resistor (in each channel). It sounds stunning at the moment, fitted with just some decent metal-films, costing pennies, so goodness knows how good it will get with some top-notch resistors in there!! :eek:
Marco.
Yes, resistive passives will be very sensitive to capacitance on the output side.
I thought the goldpoint was made using surface mount resistors on a PCB, how has it been converted to a shunt with a single resistor to ground?
My thoughts exactly. If the switch now selects a shunt resistor to ground for each position, not only has the switch been rewired, but the values of the resistors have to be changed if the attenuation values are to remain the same.
Exactly, and that's what has been done, Barry - to great sonic effect. This (with the Goldpoint modded as outlined) is unquestionably the best my system has ever sounded! :)
Marco.
Firebottle
04-10-2015, 17:12
Nick I'm pretty sure you have the correct mental picture of the way Marco's attenuator is now wired, IMO.
One series resistor followed by a varying number of the string of resistors on the attenuator switch as a shunt to ground.
I'm wondering if the 'sweet spot' referred to is just the position that is high enough above the noise floor but low enough not to compromise the full dynamic range required for the music.
Very much dependent on the overall gain structure of the system/components, as mentioned.
:)
A couple of posts while I was typing. Has every resistor on the Goldpoint been changed Marco?
Precisely, Alan. I concur completely, especially with your last sentence [before your edit] :)
Marco.
Then it's no longer a Goldpoint, as all that remains of the original design is the input selector switch and the box. Perhaps you should rename it "The Duncan" using some Letterset. :D
Lol... :eyebrows:
Well, it still uses the superb quality Goldpoint switches themselves, which I have to say are the finest (and quietest) in operation I've ever used. Also, I'm still getting some sonic benefit from the original thin-film Nichrome resistors fitted, as Alan refers to here:
One series resistor followed by a varying number of the string of resistors on the attenuator switch as a shunt to ground.
...together with the lovely case it's all screwed together in! And as all my other kit has been 'bespoke voiced', as it were, then the Goldpoint has simply joined the party! :D
In all seriousness though, modifying things like this, and customising equipment for optimum performance in your system, is an excellent way to obtain maximum SPPV - and *that* is what my system-building methodology is all about :exactly:
Marco.
A couple of posts while I was typing. Has every resistor on the Goldpoint been changed Marco?
Nope. All the original resistors are still present on the stepped attenuators, but are no longer directly in line with the signal path - only the two series ones Duncan has fitted are. The rest go to ground. Do you get what I mean? :)
Marco.
Firebottle
04-10-2015, 17:32
I do certainly, some previous description could be mis-interpreted as only one shunt resistor in play at any time, not the case as Nick also understood.
Not sure that in this case you have got good SPPV - in retrospect it would have been cheaper just to get Duncan - or someone - to knock you up a custom passive from scratch.
Still we live and learn and if you don't try things you never gain any knowledge. I can't talk, if I had back the money I'd spent pointlessly on this hobby over the years I could buy a boat.
Yes I know what you mean, Martin, and to a degree you're right.
However, at this stage the only extra costs I've incurred are about £1 for the two series metal-film resistors installed. Once the Z-Foils (or whatever) are fitted, then I'll be out a bit more money (those, for example, are £15 each, so £30 for the Z-foils alone).
That's still piss all, in the grand scheme of things, in the context of a £30k system.....
If before I had embarked on this journey, with a passive preamp, someone had said to me 'Marco, spend £600-odd quid and you'll end up with an utterly stunning sound, and better than you've ever had before', I'd have snapped their hands off! ;)
Remember too, that the Goldpoint now, 'as is', is outperforming the Croft, on line-level! So you've got a £600 passive (including import duty and tax) sonically outperforming a £4k valve preamp. I'd call that a result, no? If that's not high SPPV, what is? :)
Marco.
I do certainly, some previous description could be mis-interpreted as only one shunt resistor in play at any time, not the case as Nick also understood.
Not sure what you mean, Alan. As I understand it, there *is* only one resistor (per channel) in play at any time... :scratch:
Marco.
Remember too, that the Goldpoint now, 'as is', is outperforming the Croft, on line-level! So you've got a £600 passive (including import duty and tax) sonically outperforming a £4k valve preamp. I'd call that a result, no? :)
Marco.
No question about it - this is what I have been saying about passive pre amps for ages. If you don't have thousands to spend on a pre (or even if you do) it is the way to go.
Indeed, but it has to be done right, whilst preserving system synergy. That clearly wasn't the case with the majority of passives I've heard in the past.
Marco.
sq225917
04-10-2015, 18:04
Any chance of a pic Marco. I owned a Goldpoint and cant imagine how it could be made a true shunt without a serious rewire. Though I can easily understand how swapping the actual shunt resistor for a different value would affect the voltage divider to give a completely different attenuation at each point of the switch.
Also remember, Martin, that if I had gotten Duncan to build me a passive from scratch, I'd still have wanted to use Goldpoint dual-mono steppers and a Goldpoint selector switch, so those alone (with knobs fitted) come to a total of $395, not much less than the cost of the whole unit itself - and that's before you buy a case, high-quality internal wiring, and quality RCA sockets!
So, in reality, how much would I have saved by just getting Duncan to build me one? ;)
Marco.
Hi Simon,
Any chance of a pic Marco. I owned a Goldpoint and cant imagine how it could be made a true shunt without a serious rewire. Though I can easily understand how swapping the actual shunt resistor for a different value would affect the voltage divider to give a completely different attenuation at each point of the switch.
Sure, I'll do that when the resistor 'bake-off' is taking place and post the pics later along with my report :)
In terms of the bit in bold, that's one of the reasons why the whole exercise was worthwhile!
Marco.
Q. Why did Mr Ohm marry Mrs Ohm?
A. Because he couldn't resistor...:lol:
Sorry, couldn't resist:D;)
Firebottle
04-10-2015, 18:18
Not sure what you mean, Alan. As I understand it, there *is* only one resistor (per channel) in play at any time... :scratch:
Marco.
OK I'll try to elucidate. A basic attenuator has two 'arms', shown here by resistors Z and Y:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvquR93-AD0X-R0ggrLZWKvOLuzxtuwcTni3FiefiXX5sZI77i
The Z resistor is the series part, this is the resistor that you are going to experiment with.
The Y resistor is the shunt part but in your case with the Goldpoint is made up from a string of resistors on the Goldpoint pcb. The 47 way switch now selects how many of these resistors makes up the Y arm.
The resistors in the Y arm are connected in series, that is through one to the next, then through that one to the next and so on. This can be seen clearly on the picture from the Goldpoint website:
http://www.goldpt.com/detail3_140.jpg
So at position 47 on the dial (max volume) there will be 47 resistors in series making up the Y arm of the attenuator. Each click down from max will remove one of these resistors from the chain.
Clear?
Yup, I think so, and am pretty sure that's what is going on. However, I'll show your post to Duncan and ask him to confirm :)
I think his view is that the effect of the resistors in 'Y' can't be heard, as they're going to ground. In reality, I guess that they'll have a small influence on the sound. The main thing you're hearing, however, is the sonic effect of the series resistor.
Regardless, I'm more than happy with the current arrangement, which has effected a massive step-up in performance on the unit, compared with how things were originally!
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
04-10-2015, 19:08
If I understand it correctly, what you now have is a high quality switch, with a pair of "better" series resistors, plus the original shunt resistors and all their original solder joints and pcb track?
All of which can have an effect on the sound, so separating out their influences will be tricky. I don't say impossible, just difficult. Switches in particular can make quite a difference. And believing the shunt components are out of the signal path could get you into trouble; look at the effect cathode resistors can have, and the equalising L,C and R shunt parts in my speaker crossover have to be the best I can afford, or they mess with the sound!
And your passive attenuator may sound better at a lower setting because there are less parts in the shunt path. With a TVC, for one example, there is less in the signal path at higher settings.
Just something to consider if you are trying to understand why it sounds better.
Yup, thanks for that, Richard. I get where you're coming from and agree, especially with this bit:
And your passive attenuator may sound better at a lower setting because there are less parts in the shunt path.
That and the fact that, as Alan says:
So at position 47 on the dial (max volume) there will be 47 resistors in series making up the Y arm of the attenuator. Each click down from max will remove one of these resistors from the chain.
...there are more resistors in line with the signal, the more the volume is turned up, makes me want to achieve my preferred listening levels lower down, not higher up on the dial! I don't want to be cranking it up past 12 noon, unless I'm playing back music recorded at a very low level, as it will sound WORSE.
That's an important point to remember, and is why I've chosen 20K series resistors, precisely to obtain that effect. In that respect, most of my listening will be carried out between 1 and 10 on the dial :)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
04-10-2015, 19:41
...there are more resistors in line with the signal, the more the volume is turned up, makes me want to achieve my preferred listening levels lower down, not higher up on the dial!
That's an important point to remember, and is why I've chosen 20K series resistors, in order to obtain that effect :)
Marco.
I think he meant in parallel (shunt) with the signal, rather than in line (series). This what I meant about the difficulty in understanding exactly what is having a particular effect!
tubehunter
04-10-2015, 19:45
No Alan is correct
The GP is a series attenuator not a shunt type originally.
I've connected the in and outputs to ground and connected the original ground to the output side of the z series resistor.
Creating a shunt type attenuator.
Happy days
I think he meant in parallel (shunt) with the signal, rather than in line (series). This what I meant about the difficulty in understanding exactly what is having a particular effect!
Lol - I'm confused now (not difficult when it comes to these things), but regardless, I'm entirely satisfied that I've gone the right route! One listen to my system now confirms that :)
Anyway, Duncan has also now confirmed that Alan's earlier outlining of what's going on is correct. As I suspected, he also said that he's uncertain about the resistors in 'Y' affecting sound quality, and that the jury is still out on that!
Marco.
No Alan is correct
The GP is a series attenuator not a shunt type
Ha - you beat me to it, mate! :D
Marco.
Lol - I've just noted your edit:
The GP is a series attenuator not a shunt type originally.
I've connected the in and outputs to ground and connected the original ground to the output side of the x series resistor.
Creating a shunt type attenuator.
Happy days
Indeed... I'm dancing with joy because my system sounds fooking amazing!! :youtheman: :hifive:
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
04-10-2015, 20:18
Oh for heaven's sake! Someone draw me a circuit diagram of what it was, and what it is now! All these words are giving me a headache, I have a wife for that!
Just been having a further think about this:
I think he meant in parallel (shunt) with the signal, rather than in line (series).
Even if that's the case, and *if* the shunt resistors [illustrated in the 'Y' arm of the diagram] do influence the sound (and I suspect they do to some degree), then it still makes sense to have my preferred listening levels located at the lower end of the dials [1 to 10], than further on, for the very reason you're referring to, and in terms of the point Alan was making.
Marco.
In other news, according to Chris, I'll soon have an LDR winging its way to me, so it'll be very interesting hearing how that compares with the Goldpoint (and Croft)... Nice to have so many good choices! :eyebrows:
Marco.
PaulStewart
05-10-2015, 00:22
In other news, according to Chris, I'll soon have an LDR winging its way to me, so it'll be very interesting hearing how that compares with the Goldpoint (and Croft)... Nice to have so many good choices! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Funnily enogh I was discussing these with Nick at Whittlebury the other day. A good passive is the dogs dangles, in fact my Art Audio VPL is,mwhen in passive mode, a passive followed by a buffer stage, which in turn matches it to following equipment, i.e. The power amp, headphone energiser etc. The problem with LDRs is that they are not passive devices like a good quality resistor (my favs are Vishay Z foils, as used in my own passive pre design).
LDRs are semi conductors, albeit two tailed ones. The are, depending on how they are conected, companding, this is why they are the heart of the classic Joe Meek optical compressor, which gives the amazing squashed sound to the organ in the Tornadoes track, Telstar. When wired as expanders, they artificialy enhance dynamic range at the expepnse of some pretty awful "pumping". They are useful in the studio, (I have four channels of Joe Meek compression), but crap in true HiFi systems, they aren't known as suck and blow compressors for nothing.
Interesting, Paul. And thanks for your input. I guess we'll see whether that's the case in my system or not. I have to say that the LDR of Chris' I heard in Anthony TD's system recently sounded superb, and nothing like you've described...
Anyway, as ever the proof of the pudding is in the listening, so we shall see! Full report to come in due course, on how all three devices (Goldpoint, LDR and Croft) shape up when compared with each other :cool:
Marco.
With a three month old child in the house, there is no way I would have an LDR in the house.
Risk of component failure and cadmium fumes is just not worth it for me, even if it as the best preamp money could buy.
Just make sure you do not inhale the magic smoke!
Lol - I certainly inhaled the stench of irony in that post! :lol:
Marco.
The Black Adder
05-10-2015, 08:05
With a three month old child in the house, there is no way I would have an LDR in the house.
Risk of component failure and cadmium fumes is just not worth it for me, even if it as the best preamp money could buy.
Just make sure you do not inhale the magic smoke!
lol.. you never know, it might have been what Joe Meek did if that's the case!
Lol - I certainly inhaled the stench of irony in that post! :lol:
Marco.
Working with cadmium plated objects on a daily basis, I am aware of the risks of a controlled substance.
I am also aware of the risk an amp with exposed valves presents to an inquisitive mind, so for the time being I won't be having one of those either.
Working with cadmium plated objects on a daily basis, I am aware of the risks of a controlled substance.
I am also aware of the risk an amp with exposed valves presents to an inquisitive mind, so for the time being I won't be having one of those either.
Keep your grilles on too!
I would prefer a valve amp where the case encloses the valves - something like a Croft.
If a grille is easy to remove, it's not worth the risk.
Your WAD looks lovely, but it is just the wrong time for me.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 08:31
Working with cadmium plated objects on a daily basis, I am aware of the risks of a controlled substance.
I am also aware of the risk an amp with exposed valves presents to an inquisitive mind, so for the time being I won't be having one of those either.
Personally, I would sell the 3 month old child. Less expense in the long run.
(My eldest is 44 and still costs me!)
Just so that people are aware of the dangers of Cadmium, and can make their own minds up.
The European Agency (ECHA) has updated the REACH Candidate List with 6 new substances. 144 substances are part of the Candidate List from now.
Cadmium is part of the 6 added substances, which means that it has officially entered the "pipe" to be potentially regulated in the short term future (worst case scenario: banned in 2019).
http://www.politico.eu/article/ban-on-cadmium-takes-effect/
Apparently, cadmium is also found in some LED televisions. I didn't know that.
Personally, I would sell the 3 month old child. Less expense in the long run.
(My eldest is 44 and still costs me!)
I am prepared for the costs. It's taken longer than I wanted for and a bit of a bumpy road.
Compromising on my HiFi for a few years is the least of my worries!
I won't have much spare cash for upgrades any more, which is a shame. I really fancy a new/different pre amp, and a valve based power amp so that I have something different to listen to when I fancy a change.
walpurgis
05-10-2015, 09:00
In other news, according to Chris, I'll soon have an LDR winging its way to me, so it'll be very interesting hearing how that compares with the Goldpoint (and Croft)... Nice to have so many good choices! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ah. I wondered if you'd get tempted by that idea Marco. I'm just receiving deliveries of components to attempt to build one. Should be able to try a prototype soon. I have impedances to work out and also pot values for the power supply to try yet. I'll probably cock it up, but nothing ventured................:)
I'm sure you'll be fine, or if not, Chris will help you out :)
Marco.
I am prepared for the costs. It's taken longer than I wanted for and a bit of a bumpy road.
Compromising on my HiFi for a few years is the least of my worries!
I won't have much spare cash for upgrades any more, which is a shame. I really fancy a new/different pre amp, and a valve based power amp so that I have something different to listen to when I fancy a change.
Hey, mate, sometimes sacrifices have to be made, and in your case, for a very good cause! The only fumes you'll have to worry about are those emitted by soiled nappies :D
Marco.
I am prepared for the costs. It's taken longer than I wanted for and a bit of a bumpy road.
Compromising on my HiFi for a few years is the least of my worries!
I won't have much spare cash for upgrades any more, which is a shame. I really fancy a new/different pre amp, and a valve based power amp so that I have something different to listen to when I fancy a change.
Yup. Very worth it. You could have both but you would need to put the amp high enough that little inquisitive hand cant reach for a few yoers.. Ive 2 grandkids and they are mostly over the " must stick my finger in that" the youngest being 4 1/2. Grilles wise i meant speakers. They seem to be the most attractive. Nay irrisistible of targets even if you are right beside them saying DO NOT TOUCH THAT!...they still stick their hand out....its a magnet to them...good luck with the kid and teach him/her that once they are griwn up they look after you;)
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 09:35
Yup. Very worth it. You could have both but you would need to put the amp high enough that little inquisitive hand cant reach for a few yoers.. Ive 2 grandkids and they are mostly over the " must stick my finger in that" the youngest being 4 1/2. Grilles wise i meant speakers. They seem to be the most attractive. Nay irrisistible of targets even if you are right beside them saying DO NOT TOUCH THAT!...they still stick their hand out....its a magnet to them...good luck with the kid and teach him/her that once they are griwn up they look after you;)
Our hifi rose higher and higher until the kids understood the concept of dire retribution. Then it all came back down. And I've always preferred grilles anyway.
And turntable lids. :ner:
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 09:43
Just so that people are aware of the dangers of Cadmium, and can make their own minds up.
http://www.politico.eu/article/ban-on-cadmium-takes-effect/
Apparently, cadmium is also found in some LED televisions. I didn't know that.
Chris (Stereo Coffee LDR) went through a whole rigmarole with the relevant legislation concerning cadmium in finished products. It's worth bearing in mind that the amounts in an LDR are tiny,and encapsulated, so unless you chew them the health risk is tiny. Your (older?) solar panels will probably be far more dangerous!
walpurgis
05-10-2015, 09:45
I have a few LDRs, but might stock up on more different values just in case they get banned. They're very cheap (from China).
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 09:53
Interesting, Paul. And thanks for your input. I guess we'll see whether that's the case in my system or not. I have to say that the LDR of Chris' I heard in Anthony TD's system recently sounded superb, and nothing like you've described...
Anyway, as ever the proof of the pudding is in the listening, so we shall see!
Marco.
It may be worth considering the "map" that is already in your brain. What you hear is often nothing like what the measurements show. For example I have just been listening to Dylan's "Masters of War" sung by Julia Easterlin (https://vieuxfarkatourjuliaeasterlin.bandcamp.com/album/touristes), and it sounds haunting and moving to me. But my wife can hear Dylan's own version in her head as she listens, and doesn't agree with me. I don't like Dylan's voice at all, so my "map" is different; I HEAR differently as a consequence!
So all the comparisons between measured and heard are often* a red herring IMO.
*I said OFTEN, not always, so don't start!
anubisgrau
05-10-2015, 10:18
Funnily enogh I was discussing these with Nick at Whittlebury the other day. A good passive is the dogs dangles, in fact my Art Audio VPL is,mwhen in passive mode, a passive followed by a buffer stage, which in turn matches it to following equipment, i.e. The power amp, headphone energiser etc. The problem with LDRs is that they are not passive devices like a good quality resistor (my favs are Vishay Z foils, as used in my own passive pre design).
LDRs are semi conductors, albeit two tailed ones. The are, depending on how they are conected, companding, this is why they are the heart of the classic Joe Meek optical compressor, which gives the amazing squashed sound to the organ in the Tornadoes track, Telstar. When wired as expanders, they artificialy enhance dynamic range at the expepnse of some pretty awful "pumping". They are useful in the studio, (I have four channels of Joe Meek compression), but crap in true HiFi systems, they aren't known as suck and blow compressors for nothing.
There was either some development in LDRs in the recent year or two or there are different "truths" out there. AFAIK semi conductors are used to control LDRs and are definitely not on the signal path, unless as in in or output buffers used to reduce impedance.
From Wiki:
"A photoresistor is made of a high resistance semiconductor. In the dark, a photoresistor can have a resistance as high as several megohms (MΩ), while in the light, a photoresistor can have a resistance as low as a few hundred ohms."
PaulStewart
05-10-2015, 10:30
From Wiki:
"A photoresistor is made of a high resistance semiconductor. In the dark, a photoresistor can have a resistance as high as several megohms (MΩ), while in the light, a photoresistor can have a resistance as low as a few hundred ohms."
Indeed, but you can lead a horse to water........ :lol:
It may be worth considering the "map" that is already in your brain. What you hear is often nothing like what the measurements show. For example I have just been listening to Dylan's "Masters of War" sung by Julia Easterlin (https://vieuxfarkatourjuliaeasterlin.bandcamp.com/album/touristes), and it sounds haunting and moving to me. But my wife can hear Dylan's own version in her head as she listens, and doesn't agree with me. I don't like Dylan's voice at all, so my "map" is different; I HEAR differently as a consequence!
So all the comparisons between measured and heard are often* a red herring IMO.
*I said OFTEN, not always, so don't start!
Sure id agree. Its like a book v film. Depending what you saw/read first as to whether you like it...often;)
It may be worth considering the "map" that is already in your brain.
In my case, it's more of a roughly drawn scribble on the back of a fag packet than one of the Ordnance Survey's efforts.
tubehunter
05-10-2015, 11:25
I was recently reading Valve Amplifiers Third Edition by Morgan Jones again and his thoughts on LDR
"
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/1_zpsjghwljj8.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/1_zpsjghwljj8.jpg.html)
"
anubisgrau
05-10-2015, 12:09
From Wiki:
"A photoresistor is made of a high resistance semiconductor. In the dark, a photoresistor can have a resistance as high as several megohms (MΩ), while in the light, a photoresistor can have a resistance as low as a few hundred ohms."
yes what do you actually have on the signal path?
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 12:36
yes what do you actually have on the signal path?
A photoresistor.
yes what do you actually have on the signal path?
To paraphrase:
The photoresistor is made of a high resistance semiconductor. In the dark, the photoresistor can have a resistance as high as several megohms (MΩ), while in the light, the photoresistor can have a resistance as low as a few hundred ohms. The photoresistor (or normally two) is in the signal path.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 12:45
I was recently reading Valve Amplifiers Third Edition by Morgan Jones again and his thoughts on LDR
"
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/1_zpsjghwljj8.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/1_zpsjghwljj8.jpg.html)
"
Well, that's interesting. 0.02% of 2nd harmonic may actually sound better, depending on your mental map! And the poor matching is well known, which is why they have to be matched. Drift can also be a problem, but experiences vary. As for unmeasurable distortion with switched attenuators, well just ask Marco! Inaudible would be a better aim.
This is a problem with accepting measured results, it depends on what is measured, how accurate the measurement, how it is interpreted, and so on. We aren't testing life saving drugs here, so subjective experiences are just as valid as measured data, where listening to music is concerned.
Morgan's text is a little misleading though, as firstly he is not using the LDRs that are now used in preamps, secondly he is only using one, when most designs use two, and thirdly he assumed that is the distortion was high at 10v, low at 2v it would be lower still at lower voltage. The first point means the measured level of distortion is not what you see in the current units, the second point means the distortion is 3rd Harmonic, not 2nd, and the third point means that the transfer curve of the stage varies with volume setting and signal level.
Of course, if they sound better to you thats great everyone wins, but dont assume they are sounding better because they are more transparent.
anubisgrau
05-10-2015, 13:27
so it's a resistor, not a transistor :)
so it's a resistor, not a transistor :)
No its a semiconductor that has a resistance that varies with light level. No one said it was a transistor.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 13:31
Of course, if they sound better to you thats great everyone wins, but dont assume they are sounding better because they are more transparent.
I'm amused by the use of visual analogies. I used to work in stained glass, and ruby glass (among many others) is transparent! Not uncoloured, just not opaque or translucent. So calling something audibly transparent doesn't mean what most people think it does. IIRC, Linn Kans were "transparent", which helps* to explain their popularity, but they sure as hell weren't uncoloured! I have no objection to the term as such, just the misuse and misunderstanding of it.
* Linn marketing being at least as big a reason. But I heard them at the time, and could understand the appeal, especially in comparison to the many thick** sounding but good measuring alternatives.
** Translucent?
I used to work in stained glass, and ruby glass (among many others) is transparent!
Not below 500nm its not.
I could have used more accurate language, I could have said it did not have a linear transfer function, or I could have shown a FFT of its distortion spectra, but given the nature of most readers of this forum I chose language that I believed would make sense to the most people.
Well, that's interesting. 0.02% of 2nd harmonic may actually sound better, depending on your mental map! And the poor matching is well known, which is why they have to be matched. Drift can also be a problem, but experiences vary. As for unmeasurable distortion with switched attenuators, well just ask Marco! Inaudible would be a better aim.
This is a problem with accepting measured results, it depends on what is measured, how accurate the measurement, how it is interpreted, and so on. We aren't testing life saving drugs here, so subjective experiences are just as valid as measured data, where listening to music is concerned.
I wholeheartedly concur (on all points), but specifically the bit in blue! :thumbsup:
That bit should be displayed on the banner of every hi-fi forum in the land, in big, bold flashing neon lights!!
Marco.
Whoever claimed Linn Kans were transparent?
Transparent has a pretty well established meaning in audio which is a component/process that adds nothing measurable to the signal. So no speaker - not even a Linn Kan - can be transparent.
You will see people using it in other contexts i.e 'transparent sounding' when what they actually mean is 'doesn't sound all horrid and distorted' or 'I can hear what the vocalist is singing' but this isn't transparancy it just means the system being described is not total crap.
ALL mk1 and 2 Kans are horrid and distorted - it was designed into them and it got worse as KEF messed up the bass-mid units. The mk2 was a serious attempt to make them more neutral, but the box colouration became unbearable to me - ugh! Having that whacking peak up at very upper midrange made drum-kits sound impressive though ;)
Anyway, do resistor networks add distortion? Surely a proper attenuator need only have two value-selected resistors in circuit at any one setting. That way the loading as seen by source and amp would be the same, thereby removing yet another variable, would it not?
This whole thread seems to me like a hi-tech sledgehammer trying to crack a peanut, when a little plastic-film pot would do the trick? Sorry, I just don't 'get' the 'have to improve what the designer thought was fine' vibe - not criticising, just increasingly confused.
Whoever claimed Linn Kans were transparent?
Transparent has a pretty well established meaning in audio which is a component/process that adds nothing measurable to the signal. So no speaker - not even a Linn Kan - can be transparent.
You will see people using it in other contexts i.e 'transparent sounding' when what they actually mean is 'doesn't sound all horrid and distorted' or 'I can hear what the vocalist is singing' but this isn't transparancy it just means the system being described is not total crap.
Valves are more transparent than transistors because they're made of glass and you can see through them.
Ali Tait
05-10-2015, 14:56
:lol:
This whole thread seems to me like a hi-tech sledgehammer trying to crack a peanut, when a little plastic-film pot would do the trick? Sorry, I just don't 'get' the 'have to improve what the designer thought was fine' vibe - not criticising, just increasingly confused.
Lol - well, for starters, "what the designer thought was fine", might not apply in my set-up, or to my ears, so why should I blindly stick with it? I may hear latent potential which I think can be released. In which case I will attempt to do so, or if not, sell the item and buy something else, if it shows no signs of promise. I chose the former option - and it's worked out superbly :)
As you know full well, the efficacy of devices such as passive preamps is HUGELY dependent on how well they match, or otherwise, the partnering power amp, so what will work well in one set up, won't necessarily work equally as well in another, which is why you can take something that is inherently good, such as the Goldpoint (inherently good, in terms of the quality of stepped attenuators and selector switches it uses, which IMO are superior to any others I've had), and optimise it for use in *your* system - and that's precisely what I've done.
The relevance of correct matching was rammed home again today, when I took the Goldpoint over to DarrenHW's place (who lives near me), where we used it with his Quad 405s... It sounded great, but nothing like it does at my place, simply because his amps are hugely more insensitive than my Copper amp. In order to achieve my normal listening levels in his system, we had to turn it up to 2 o'clock on the dials, a level of volume I would have achieved here at the 9 o'clock positions...
As such, it sounded good, but a bit 'soft and weedy' compared with what I get at home. In that respect, all it would take to rectify matters, if the Goldpoint was to be optimised for use in Darren's system, is to change the value of the series resistor to (I suspect) 10K, from the 22K that the unit is currently fitted with. Therefore, with that in mind, how could Goldpoint possibly 'design in' maximum compatibility with every power amp their devices are liable to partnered with??
That's why modifications are sometimes necessary. When you're following a cooking recipe, do you carry it out rigidly, word for word, or adapt the ingredients to suit your own circumstances or palate? Well, hi-fi is the same. Nothing can ever act as a 'perfect entity' for all.
If you heard how the Goldpoint sounded here originally, Dave, compared with how it does now, I can assure you there would be no 'confusion'! ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
05-10-2015, 15:16
Just so that people are aware of the dangers of Cadmium, and can make their own minds up.
http://www.politico.eu/article/ban-on-cadmium-takes-effect/
Apparently, cadmium is also found in some LED televisions. I didn't know that.
Vinyl is pretty nasty stuff too ;)
http://www3.epa.gov/airtoxics/hlthef/vinylchl.html
Regards Neil
Most vinyl chloride is used to make polyvinyl chloride (PVC) plastic and vinyl products. Acute (short-term) exposure to high levels of vinyl chloride in air has resulted in central nervous system effects (CNS), such as dizziness, drowsiness, and headaches in humans. Chronic (long-term) exposure to vinyl chloride through inhalation and oral exposure in humans has resulted in liver damage. Cancer is a major concern from exposure to vinyl chloride via inhalation, as vinyl chloride exposure has been shown to increase the risk of a rare form of liver cancer in humans. EPA has classified vinyl chloride as a Group A, human carcinogen.
As long as you don't burn your record collection, you should be fine. :eek:
As long as you don't burn your record collection, you should be fine. :eek:
Also, keep clear of any disco infernos.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 17:08
Not below 500nm its not.
I could have used more accurate language, I could have said it did not have a linear transfer function, or I could have shown a FFT of its distortion spectra, but given the nature of most readers of this forum I chose language that I believed would make sense to the most people.
But it doesn't, it's inaccurate and misleading. My use of visual terms is just as inaccurate as yours. Which is the point I'm trying to make. You are assuming that everyone uses the term in exactly the way that you do, but I just demonstrated that isn't true. How many other misunderstandings are there?
It matters.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 17:11
Valves are more transparent than transistors because they're made of glass and you can see through them.
QED. :D But there may even be an element of psychoacustic truth in that.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 17:27
ALL mk1 and 2 Kans are horrid and distorted - it was designed into them and it got worse as KEF messed up the bass-mid units. The mk2 was a serious attempt to make them more neutral, but the box colouration became unbearable to me - ugh! Having that whacking peak up at very upper midrange made drum-kits sound impressive though ;)
That was just the first thing I thought of, don't get hung up on the accuracy or otherwise.
Anyway, do resistor networks add distortion? Surely a proper attenuator need only have two value-selected resistors in circuit at any one setting. That way the loading as seen by source and amp would be the same, thereby removing yet another variable, would it not?
And a 24 way switch, and solder joints, plus resistors have a sonic signature, just like everything else.
This whole thread seems to me like a hi-tech sledgehammer trying to crack a peanut, when a little plastic-film pot would do the trick? Sorry, I just don't 'get' the 'have to improve what the designer thought was fine' vibe - not criticising, just increasingly confused.
But it doesn't, that's the point! Unless you think designers know everything, or that the bean counters don't get involved?
As just one example, I built a Ben Duncan designed active crossover (HiFi News, 1981-2). He later updated the design (op-amps, crossover function, removing caps, PSU, etc) and I did the same with component changes. It made it far more expensive, but also it sounds better now. And that's just one item that I have personal experience of! Besides, some of us are curious.
We're on the same page here, Richard.
Some of us are also free-thinkers and demand the best sound possible, which as you correctly say, isn't always part of the equation with a commercial product. 'The designer knows best' mentality is the behaviour of a gullible novice, not an experienced and discerning audiophile, keen to hear his or her music at its best!
Marco.
But it doesn't, it's inaccurate and misleading. My use of visual terms is just as inaccurate as yours. Which is the point I'm trying to make. You are assuming that everyone uses the term in exactly the way that you do, but I just demonstrated that isn't true. How many other misunderstandings are there?
It matters.
So what you are saying (or not, maybe I have a different usage of the words saying, what, you and are) is that language is flexible and may not perfectly be used to exchange information without the assumption of agreed meaning.
Your solution to this is?
Spectral Morn
05-10-2015, 17:35
As long as you don't burn your record collection, you should be fine. :eek:
And what likely hood is there that cadmium will be any more or less a risk or Beryllium, used by many audio companies in their tweeters drive units ?
Thing is vinyl is a controlled substance, must be handled with great care and increasingly is harder to get, due to the handling regulations brought in. All vinyl used in American pressing plants is imported, none of it comes from the states, same is probably true here.
Anyway I am disappointed to see such scare mongering brought here.
Regards Neil
Initially, I thought Kevin's remarks were tongue-in-cheek, but he seems to be serious... :doh:
The poor boy's been brainwashed by the agenda-driven scaremongering of a certain passive preamp manufacturer (with a penchant for glued-down acrylic cases), as he sees the increasing popularity of LDRs as a threat to his sales, so therefore has done his level best to, let's put it politely, 'dissuade' folk from buying them, who unfortunately are easily influenced and blessed with a tendency to worry too much about nothing!
Let's face it, inhaling 'cadmium fumes' is about as likely to occur, during the normal use of a fully built, fully functioning, and properly housed LDR preamp, as the inhalation of cigarette smoke by a family of non-smokers!
Marco.
Anyway, back on topic, the 'posh resistors', for the Goldpoint, have been ordered from HFC and will be here tomorrow :yay:
Full report tomorrow evening (with pics), once the comparisons have been completed, where the winner will be revealed. Don't miss it!!
Marco.
Initially, I thought Kevin's remarks were tongue-in-cheek, but he seems to be serious... :doh:
The poor boy's been brainwashed by the agenda-driven scaremongering of a certain passive preamp manufacturer (with a penchant for glued-down acrylic cases), as he sees the increasing popularity of LDRs as a threat to his sales, so therefore has done his level best to, let's politely put it, 'dissuade' folk from buying them, who unfortunately are easily influenced and blessed with a tendency to worry too much about nothing!
Let's face it, inhaling 'Cadmium fumes' is about as likely to occur, during the normal use of an LDR preamp, as the inhalation of nicotine by a family of non-smokers! In reality, you're far more likely to die inhaling the fumes from a house fire, caused by an amplifier combusting, as a result of being fitted without any DC protection circuitry..................... ;)
Marco.
Cadmium is nasty stuff, hence why it is likely to be banned in Europe very soon.
Still, it is your choice...
For various parts that need to be cad plated for work, they are all sent to specialist companies these days.
I don't doubt for a second that it's nasty stuff, but it's only nasty if you misuse it in some way.
Explain to me, how in the normal course of using an LDR preamp, to play music in a hi-fi system, as long as you don't tamper with the internals of the device, you can die or become badly poisoned? :scratch:
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 18:36
Cadmium is nasty stuff, hence why it is likely to be banned in Europe very soon.
Still, it is your choice...
For various parts that need to be cad plated for work, they are all sent to specialist companies these days.
But it is still used, apparently.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 18:46
So what you are saying (or not, maybe I have a different usage of the words saying, what, you and are) is that language is flexible and may not perfectly be used to exchange information without the assumption of agreed meaning.
Your solution to this is?
Well, I assume you are being sarcastic, but I will answer anyway.
Be precise, don't assume terms from one sense apply to a different one. Ignorance is fine, but now that you know, continued use of the term without qualifying it would be lazy.
Also, treat a serious point seriously. There are many who won't understand the differences, so you owe it to them to try to be clear. I am just guessing what your exact meaning is, and I can actually see a distinction. How many can't?
Indeed language is flexible, but without a shared definition it just becomes babble.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 18:55
I don't doubt it for a second that it's nasty stuff, but it's only nasty if you misuse it in some way.
Explain to me, how in the normal course of using an LDR preamp, to play music in a hi-fi system, as long as you don't tamper with the internals of the device, you can die or become badly poisoned? :scratch:
Marco.
I think that the COSHH legislation is designed (!) mainly to protect workers who are exposed to dangerous substances in large amounts, and disposal of same, either landfill or incineration. Where lead in solder is concerned, for example, medical and military equipment have exemptions. Because it makes equipment less reliable! Anyway, leaded solder is readily available, and making stained glass windows (for one example) uses large amounts of the stuff. Regular blood tests are recommended for workers.
Day to day use of many substances poses minimal health risks.
But it is still used, apparently.
Mainly on fasteners, but usually as a last resort.
The challenge now is to find an alternative product that works just as well.
Fancy tackling my post earlier post, Kevin (#205)? :)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 19:08
Fancy tackling my post earlier post, Kevin (#205)? :)
Marco.
Pardon my ignorance, but which one is Kevin?
CageyH. There are first names clearly visible on everyone's posts ;)
Marco.
I think that the COSHH legislation is designed (!) mainly to protect workers who are exposed to dangerous substances in large amounts, and disposal of same, either landfill or incineration. Where lead in solder is concerned, for example, medical and military equipment have exemptions. Because it makes equipment less reliable! Anyway, leaded solder is readily available, and making stained glass windows (for one example) uses large amounts of the stuff. Regular blood tests are recommended for workers.
Day to day use of many substances poses minimal health risks.
I completely get that, if you're working with and handling the stuff, but how can a hi-fi enthusiast, using an LDR preamp in his or her system, in the course of listening to music, be subjected to the same dangers, as long as they don't go poking around where they shouldn't?
Without a satisfactory and unequivocal answer to that, I'm afraid that the negativity bring shown towards the use of LDR preamps is just plain and simple scaremongering, mainly by those with an obvious commercial agenda.
Marco.
Dare say they could spontaneously combust due to the huge voltages involved :eek:
I don't doubt for a second that it's nasty stuff, but it's only nasty if you misuse it in some way.
Explain to me, how in the normal course of using an LDR preamp, to play music in a hi-fi system, as long as you don't tamper with the internals of the device, you can die or become badly poisoned? :scratch:
Marco.
If you get an internal component failure for whatever reason, that causes the LDR to "burst" it will release Cadmium fumes. Components are known to fail. They just have different MTBFs.
It does not take much to kill an adult, and much less for a small child/infant. Traces of Cadmium are sufficient.
Chances of it happening statistically will be slim, but there is still a chance. Not one I will take.
overexposures may occur even in situations where trace quantities of cadmium are found
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_poisoning Decide if you want to risk going through this.
I don't.
I just wanted to make people aware of the risk. It's completely up to them if they choose an LDR preamp, as they are not yet totally illegal, but they may well become in a few years. I don't think you can purchase a commercially assembled LDR in Europe, and that is for a reason. I think I have rattled on enough about the dangers of cadmium for now, so will post no more on this matter.
It has nothing to do with being brainwashed elsewhere. More to do with working with materials and treatments on a daily basis.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 19:26
CageyH. There are first names clearly visible on everyone's posts ;)
Marco.
Ah yes, under the line at the bottom. I was looking at the top right.
And on the subject of dangers, I ride motorbikes. On racetracks. :eek: Should definitely be banned.
From your Wiki link:
Cigarettes are also a significant source of cadmium exposure. Although there is generally less cadmium in tobacco than in food, the lungs absorb cadmium more efficiently than the stomach
With billions of smokers around the world, poisoning the air with cadmium, it's a wonder we're not all dead by now! ;)
And what about the stuff that's in our food? If ingesting cadmium is more dangerous than inhaling it, then why are people not dying every day from the effects of cadmium ingestion?
I understand and appreciate where you're coming from, but I'm afraid that until I see some clear evidence, and statistics showing the likelihood of an LDR preamp to 'burst', in the way you describe, I'll continue to consider using them.
Marco (not one of life's 'worriers' or a panic merchant)
And on the subject of dangers, I ride motorbikes. On racetracks. :eek: Should definitely be banned.
You're a very bad boy with a dangerous death wish. Tut, tut for wanting some excitement in your life! :nono:
Best enjoy it now before you succumb to the forthcoming cadmium leakage epidemic!!! Escape, people, while you still can......... :hotrod: :hotrod:
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 19:46
Let's hope a fluorescent light doesn't burst! A much more serious danger than an LDR.
It's in the text you quoted.
I hope you enjoy your LDR preamp, but it will have to go some to beat your Croft from what I have read.
Out of interest, how much Cadmium is in an LDR? I have no idea, but there are plenty of alternative products that sound good.
Various flavours of passives and of active preamps are available without the need to use a soon to be banned substance.
As I said, I just wanted to highlight the dangers. It's up to each individual if they deem it an acceptable risk. If you do, buy one while you still can, but bear in mind selling it on in a few years time may not be legal.
From your Wiki link:
And what about the stuff that's in our food? If ingesting cadmium is more dangerous than inhaling it, then why are people not dying every day from the effects of cadmium ingestion?
Read your quote from Wiki again, as you have misinterpreted it. The lungs absorb Cadmium better than your stomach.
It's in the text you quoted.
I hope you enjoy your LDR preamp, but it will have to go some to beat your Croft from what I have read.
Out of interest, how much Cadmium is in an LDR? I have no idea, but there are plenty of alternative products that sound good.
Various flavours of passives and of active preamps are available without the need to use a soon to be banned substance.
As I said, I just wanted to highlight the dangers. It's up to each individual if they deem it an acceptable risk. If you do, buy one while you still can, but bear in mind selling it on in a few years time may not be legal.
I appreciate all that, Kevin, and your reasons for drawing our attention to it. As ever with hi-fi equipment, my sole concern is for what sounds best - every other consideration pales into insignificance.
If the LDR preamp ends up sounding best, then quite simply, that is what I will use. And as I rarely sell any of my core system components, especially stuff that sounds great, there will be no inclination to dispose of the LDR. Simples - no big bad bobbies knocking at my door! ;)
Marco.
Read your quote from Wiki again, as you have misinterpreted it. The lungs absorb Cadmium better than your stomach.
Sorry, yes my mistake. However, it proves the point I made about cigarettes, which cumulatively, via every smoker in the world, emit rather more cadmium into the air, and have been doing so for years, than any LDR preamp! ;)
If someone can tell me the statistical likelihood of an LDR preamp to 'burst' or 'fry' in normal use, and thus become a genuine hazard, then I might take the danger more seriously.
Marco.
A single cigarette typically contains 1-2 mcg of cadmium. When burned, cadmium is present at a level of 1,000-3,000 ppb in the smoke. Approximately 40 to 60 percent of the cadmium inhaled from cigarette smoke is able to pass through the lungs and into the body. This means that for each pack of cigarettes smoked, a person can absorb an additional 1-3 mcg of cadmium over what is taken in from other sources in their daily life.
I am sure an LDR has more than 1 to 3 millionths of a gram of Cadmium in.
http://quitsmoking.about.com/od/chemicalsinsmoke/p/cadmium.htm
Anyway, we're in danger of going round in circles, so let's get back on topic, unless someone can supply an accurate answer to the point raised in the final sentence of my last post.
Marco.
Just one final point....
Dare say they could spontaneously combust due to the huge voltages involved :eek:
Yes, but statistically, how many have *actually* done that, out of how many sold in total? And if any LDR preamps have blown up like that, what was the outcome for those in the vicinity? Are they still alive and in good health?
Quite frankly, if you fretted about every 'what if?' in life, you'd never set foot outside the door!!
Marco.
allthingsanalogue
05-10-2015, 20:37
Don't all microwave ovens contain beryllium in the Magnatron?
Just one final point....
Yes, but statistically, how many have actually done that, out of how many sold in total? And if any LDR preamps have blown up like that, what was the outcome for those in the vicinity?
Quite frankly, if you worried about every 'what if?' in life, you'd never set foot outside the door!! It's a nonsense.
Marco.
I was being a tad Puckish and facetious:eyebrows:
walpurgis
05-10-2015, 20:45
Don't all microwave ovens contain beryllium in the Magnatron?
I don't often listen to a microwave cooker. :)
Don't all microwave ovens contain beryllium in the Magnatron?
Some do as beryllium oxide; It is another nasty, although you would likely need a fair amount to be inhaled to be super dangerous I would have thought. We worked with Mags a lot, and the dangerous part was operating them without shielding as the can sterilise you. we wore lead aprons; I looked cute:eyebrows:
Bet you did, shweety. I'd have done you! :bonk:
In the grand scheme of things this cadmium scaremongering nonsense, is just that: scaremongering nonsense. There's more danger of being asphyxiated by your own fart gas!! :lol:
Marco.
You must fart a lot. :eyebrows:
It's not scaremongering on my part.
It's nasty stuff, hence getting banned for general use, with a few exceptions for now.
If it never pops, then there is no problem until you come to dispose of it, or sell it.
Sovereign
05-10-2015, 21:06
Interesting development there Marco. My LDR pre amp has been with Chris for a few weeks now. I sent over to him as he was going to kindly tidy up a few mistakes that I made when I built it. But he has gone a bit or R&D crazy and developed it further, which is bloody fantastic as far as I'm concerned. Im not knowledgeable enough to be able to let you know what he's done, he did try and explain, I'll leave that position for him, But Chris says he is completely blown away by the differences the developments have made to my already excellent dual mono pre amp. I can only presume the LDR he is sending you has the same new developments fitted .
It's not scaremongering on my part.
It's nasty stuff, hence getting banned for general use, with a few exceptions for now.
If it never pops, then there is no problem until you come to dispose of it, or sell it.
I'm not talking about you, in terms of the scaremongering, but a certain manufacturer, whose designs I would argue are more dangerous, minus DC protection circuitry, than any LDR preamp! ;)
Yet he has the audacity to sit and lecture folk about safety. Never mind the cadmium fumes, can you smell the rancid stench of hypocrisy??
Honestly, you couldn't make it up!! :lol: :mental:
Marco.
Interesting development there Marco. My LDR pre amp has been with Chris for a few weeks now. I sent over to him as he was going to kindly tidy up a few mistakes that I made when I built it. But he has gone a bit or R&D crazy and developed it further, which is bloody fantastic as far as I'm concerned. Im not knowledgeable enough to be able to let you know what he's done, he did try and explain, I'll leave that position for him, But Chris says he is completely blown away by the differences the developments have made to my already excellent dual mono pre amp. I can only presume the LDR he is sending you has the same new developments fitted .
Nice one, James. I believe that's the one Chris is sending me :)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 21:27
I was being a tad Puckish and facetious:eyebrows:
Puck off!
Sovereign
05-10-2015, 21:30
Nice one, James. I believe that's the one Chris is sending me :)
Marco.
That's great news, when I first heard one of Chris's LDR preamps it sounded excellent, but it was using a wall wart PSU which I just couldn't live with it and I had to know what difference a decent PSU would make , but it was only once I built a proper dual mono 12 V regulated supply for in that the preamp really took off. Bear this in mind and see if you can get a good PSU for it .
Puck off!
no need for Shakespearian language
awkwardbydesign
05-10-2015, 21:34
Nice one, James. I believe that's the one Chris is sending me :)
Marco.
I'm on my 5th or 6th control board! I can't keep up as the preamp is being fitted with a remote control and new case, so has been out of system for a while. My latest cunning plan is to fit 2 brass tracks on the front panel under the volume knob, with 3 volts to them, and a 3mm LED set into the knob with sprung contacts to the tracks, so I can see where the volume is set as I use the remote. So much effort to be lazy! :mental:
Yup, it's all exciting stuff. One can never have too many choices! :)
Like I said earlier on the thread, when the LDR arrives, a full report will be written, outlining the pros and cons of each, between it, the Goldpoint and Croft, in the context of my ears and system. First things first, I'll get tomorrow's resistor 'bake-off' completed.
Here's what has been ordered:
2 x (AMRG2.0-490) 22K 2W Amtrans AMRG Resistor - £8.80 (£4.40 each)
SKU: AMRG2.0-490
2 x (RES-45-2W-22K-NM) - 22K 2W Audio Note Tantalum Non-magnetic - £25.00 (£12.50 each)
SKU: RES-45-2W-22K-NM
2 x (CAR-405) - 20K 0.4W Charcroft Z-Foil Resistor - £18.34 (£9.17 each)
SKU: CAR-406
2 x CMK-485: 20K 0.75W Caddock MK132V Precision Film - £6.14 (£3.07 each)
SKU: CMK-485
2 x (PRP-1-490) - 22K 1W PR9372 Metal Film Resistor - £1.08 (£0.54 each)
SKU: PRP-1-490
If you've ever wanted to know the difference in sound between, say, a Charcroft Z-foil and an AudioNote Tantalum (non magnetic), then tune into this thread tomorrow evening! :cool:
Marco.
brian2957
05-10-2015, 22:09
You gonny concentrate more on '' dressing up '' Grant :lol:
walpurgis
05-10-2015, 22:17
I'm giving up hifi
Blimey. That's eleven pairs of speakers you'll have to move on then. ;)
brian2957
05-10-2015, 22:19
I might pay you a visit tomorrow Grant . If I can get through the front door that is :lol:
Blimey. That's eleven pairs of speakers you'll have to move on then. ;)
Make good firewood :eek: ...and the magnets magnetise things ;)
I might pay you a visit tomorrow Grant . If I can get through the front door that is :lol:
Ive got foot doc at lunchtime, and shopping sometime but if your aroungd after 1 I can be in mate
If Brian's visiting tomorrow, remember to wear clean underpants, and eliminate the cadmium fumes, or any other noxious gases lurking within yer shreddies :eyebrows:
Marco.
Lol, why? :)
Marco.
Throwing in the towel.... Tired mate.:)
Spectral Morn
05-10-2015, 22:31
Marco and delivery man after his LDR is delivered :lol:
http://brokelyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Screen-shot-2012-08-14-at-9.44.07-AM.png
Regards Neil
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