View Full Version : Goldpoint SA4M-47 passive 'preamp' winging its way to Marco Towers...
http://s3-media2.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/OCjace5Jy0HOijoZnT7cIA/o.jpg
http://s3-media2.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/OCjace5Jy0HOijoZnT7cIA/o.jpg
Who he?
awkwardbydesign
13-10-2015, 10:30
And yes, there are carbon microphones, and strain gauges can have a lot in common with a resistor, but just because something could do something is not evidence that it does. If you have ever stepped on a microphone cable you will find some of them are monophonic as well. But its all a strawman, Anthony gave the reason for what he said. Of all the things in a valve amp (which is where he uses them) that could be microphonic I think a stepped attenuator is low down the list.
My post was in reply to YNWAN's point about Clarity Caps, not about resistors. I would also be surprised if resistors were seriously affected by these levels of vibration, their construction is somewhat different from caps.
Joseph Ducreux
France
Le Discret, circa 1791
I give up, whatever point you are all trying individually to make, you are all correct.
Can we go home now then, sir?
Marco.
The Black Adder
13-10-2015, 12:07
Can we go home now then, sir?
Marco.
lol..
Yooo, yes yoooo... stand still laddy!
If you don't eat your meat, how can you have any pudding? How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
:D :D
I fancy blancmange.
Marco.
anthonyTD
13-10-2015, 12:43
Hi All,
It would seem a more indepth explanation is needed for some here rather than a one liner!
First of all, Nick [Lurcher] fully understood my explanation, which is why he wrote what he did, The vibration quote was merely about components being subjected to vibration whilst equipment was being transported, ie; smaller, more compact components whilst under the influence of inertia, and more often than not rough handling, are in my opinion, and experience more likely to survive, than electronic assemblies built with more conventional, ie; larger, heavier components etc, and since a lot of what i have built over the years has gone abroad, it made perfect sense to me to use an attenuator which utilised small components that were less likely to get disturbed by the sometimes violent nature of transportation!
I hope this helps.
A...
Yes, and the stepped attenuators you use (DACT, with SMD resistors fitted) also happen to sound very good, because if they didn't, then no matter how 'safe' things were in transit, you wouldn't use them! ;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
13-10-2015, 12:59
Yes, exactly, that goes without saying, my first and foremost reason for using that paticular Stepped attenuator was its sonic performance, however, the fact that it used surface mount components was also a huge positive for the reasons outlined in my previous post.
Yes, and the stepped attenuators you use (DACT, with SMD-type resistors fitted) also happen to sound very good, because if they didn't, then no matter how 'safe' things were in transit, you wouldn't use them! ;)
Marco.
Absolutely, mate, I just wanted to ensure that folks were clear on the fact that your choice of using the DACT was primarily for sound quality reasons, and not simply logistical practicalities! ;)
Marco.
The Black Adder
13-10-2015, 13:06
A little questionette.
I run a series stepped attenuator (Khozmo) - Is it possible to convert mine in to 'shunt' or are the Goldpoint ones somehow different?
It could easily be done, but I wouldn't recommend it in the Croft, certainly if yours is anything like mine, as it didn't like the reduction in gain. It's different with the Goldpoint, as there is no gain there to begin with! ;)
If you decide to get an SA4M (although I would opt for a 24-stepper instead and save yourself some money), then I would ask Duncan to rewire the switches, as he did in mine, from a series to a 'shunt-type series' (thereby obtaining some of the benefits of both worlds), or probably better still, ask him to build you a passive preamp from scratch, using all your favourite 'bits'.
In that respect, I'd go for 'blank' Goldpoint dual-mono switches, and then fill them with Z-foils. That would be awesome! It's probably the way mine will end up :)
Marco.
A little questionette.
I run a series stepped attenuator (Khozmo) - Is it possible to convert mine in to 'shunt' or are the Goldpoint ones somehow different?
Pretty much any stepped attenuator or even potentiometer can be converted to shunt operation. It used to be a common mod for the Alps Blue type. I run a shunted stepped attenuator in my valve/hybrid pre amp and it works just fine. Someone posted a picture of the modification wiring earlier in this thread. (post #318)
Well, as well as buying a cheaper Dale 'ladder type' attenuator, I'm going to take the plunge and make a bloody pair of shunt attenuators myself! I can use wanky ones in series and currently, thoughts are veering towards Takmans for the shunts.. Switches already ordered and resistors once finances have recovered...
Did you go for Elma switches, Dave? IMO, those are about the best. Swiss made. It's what Goldpoint use on their attenuators. Why have you decided on Takmans? I thought you'd have 'toed the party line' and opted for Shinkohs! ;)
Marco.
I don't 'bloody' know :lol: I haven't thought it through yet. My system and funds don't allow for expensive switches as you use, so the basic ones as used by NVA in the cheaper preamp should do me well (the Tisbury types are ok for me for example and I'm still using them). Rather than fork out a ton, I'm hoping to save some dosh if I do it myself, that's all and obviously, the other amps I use may or may not like a shunt type pot.
By the way and on a completely different tack, a VERY good CD for judging amps and 'stuff,' could be 'Some Great Reward,' by Depeche Mode. I played this at lunchtime and was more than a bit taken aback...
Lol - no worries. Hope it works out well. Keep us posted :)
Noted on the DM track!
Marco.
My post was in reply to YNWAN's point about Clarity Caps, not about resistors.
It's not really my point, I was just repeating what the Clarity Cap research found.
awkwardbydesign
13-10-2015, 14:48
Well, as well as buying a cheaper Dale 'ladder type' attenuator, I'm going to take the plunge and make a bloody pair of shunt attenuators myself! I can use wanky ones in series and currently, thoughts are veering towards Takmans for the shunts.. Switches already ordered and resistors once finances have recovered...
Which Takmans? They do metal and carbon. I opted for Kiwames in my active crossover, I thought they would be slightly warmer. I would probably use Z-foils if I could afford them. But I can't!
Kiwames do sound a bit warm, IME. Why would you want that?
Btw, if anyone wants a good deal on a pair of AudioNote Tantalum (non magnetics) in 22K, PM me :)
Marco.
Would've done for what, daftee?
Marco.
Lol... No worries. I'm sure you could find a use for the AudioNotes. They'd look rather pretty as sequins on your black party dress - and they're a rather fetching salmon pink... Your favourite colour! :D
Marco.
Anyway, I've ordered some of the Belden 1800F cable, as I mentioned earlier, and Brian's kindly going to fit some MS Audio plugs on it for me. So we'll see if it's any better than the MC5000s, for passive preamp duties: http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/60-1800F_BELDEN-1800F-CABLE-Black
Full technical spec: http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/belden-brilliance-1800f-specification-sheet-specifications.pdf
Oh, and a pair of NVA SSCs are also winging their way to me on loan, so the plan is to do a little mini review of all three cables (MC5000s, Beldens and SCCs), in terms of how they perform with the Goldpoint. That will happen when Brian gets the Beldens back to me :)
Interesting review here of the Belden being used in XLR format against some expensive 'high-end' varieties: http://www.highfidelityreview.com/zebra-xlr.html
Marco.
Lol... No worries. I'm sure you could find a use for the AudioNotes. They'd look rather pretty as sequins on your black party dress - and they're a rather fetching salmon pink... Your favourite colour! :D
Marco.
I couldn't resist it [emoji2]
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/13/ae7f9038121cc0450992238783396406.jpg
Gorgeous, dahling - you'll be setting a new trend! :eyebrows:
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
13-10-2015, 16:30
Kiwames do sound a bit warm, IME. Why would you want that?
.
Synergy. Or is that too philosophical for you? :lol:
awkwardbydesign
13-10-2015, 16:34
I couldn't resist it [emoji2]
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/13/ae7f9038121cc0450992238783396406.jpg
You can laugh, but I think I still have a couple of earrings I made (and wore!) from a resistor and a voltage regulator! I'll have to dig them out. Not out of my ears, BTW.
Edit;
Yup, still got them, and the magic mushroom one. :D
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/Mobile%20Uploads/91dfbf78-ea92-4a3f-9760-45e53548ded6_zpshlkjsvuk.jpg
Synergy. Or is that too philosophical for you? :lol:
Lol... It's all like a big cake recipe, innit? :eyebrows:
Just don't add too much sugar! ;)
Marco.
Sorry to disrupt the drift ;) but there is some interesting info on low capacitance cables here if interested
greets
ru
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/LC1-design-notes.htm
http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/Using-Digital-Audio-Cable-For-Analog-Audio_301156.cfm
The info contained in the second link from Belden is interesting, and amongst my reasons for wanting to try the 1800F :)
Marco.
The info contained in the second link from Belden is interesting, and amongst my reasons for wanting to try the 1800F :)
Marco.
yes it is... ant BTW I have just realized that I have some Klotz MY206 lying around which has 60 pF per meter. So, I'm going to make me some cables with it...
Cool. Let us know how you get on. Btw, on your avatar, you should use 'fried' (gas mark 4), rather than 'fied', as it's rather more apt! :eyebrows:
Marco.
:lolsign: a Dunny is a shit house isn't it ?
Anyways, will do as I am currently using SSP or something cables which are very good... so it will be interesting to check the MY206's out..
greets
ru
This Sommer cable, from Germany, also looks interesting: http://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/Cables-Wires/Guitar/Bass-Wires/Bulk-Cables/Sommer-Cable-SC-SPIRIT-LLX-LOW-LOSS-Instrumenten-cable::6647.html?language=en&MODsid=f11s9cjcuukcmuv6greiqhqp21
Again, very low-capacitance.
Marco.
looks good ! the Belden 2221 still seems to be lower at around 42pF/m but I cant find a place to buy it.. :scratch:
just found this, so you can rest assured about your purchase of the 1800F
The largest tradeoff between performance and ease of soldering is with digital mic cables, such as 1800F or 2221. The insulation on the two wires is foamed polyethylene. Heating that up even slightly allows the bubbles of nitrogen in the foam to pop, and the insulation will disappear before your eyes. But the performance is fantastic. The capacitance of these cables is a very low 13 pF/foot or 43 pF/meter. That is about the lowest you can go. So how do you go about soldering the un-solderable?
Lol... It won't be me soldering it! Brian has da skillz - hopefully! :eek:
Marco.
You can laugh, but I think I still have a couple of earrings I made (and wore!) from a resistor and a voltage regulator! I'll have to dig them out. Not out of my ears, BTW.
Edit;
Yup, still got them, and the magic mushroom one. :D
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/Mobile%20Uploads/91dfbf78-ea92-4a3f-9760-45e53548ded6_zpshlkjsvuk.jpg
is that a motorola Vr? So your an earring man then
Either that or cock ring... Depends on which day it is! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Never had the desire for one tbh, or for that matter a tattoo which seems to be becoming an epidemic now.:doh:
walpurgis
13-10-2015, 23:29
Never had the desire for one tbh, or for that matter a tattoo which seems to be becoming an epidemic now.:doh:
I'm with you on that Grant. No bodily embellishments whatsoever. I don't even wear a watch or rings.
As for tattoos, well a lady I know has a heck of a lot. Nice girl despite. I wonder how many will regret it in years to come though.
I'm with you on that Grant. No bodily embellishments whatsoever. I don't even wear a watch or rings.
As for tattoos, well a lady I know has a heck of a lot. Nice girl despite. I wonder how many will regret it in years to come though.
Lol, like me I rarely wear a ring now or a watch bar one of my pocket watches; dunno if that counts ;) ....as for regretting, then most folk do eventually. I sincerley hope the NHS, if its still going, doesnt see itself as a free remover of these things. Dont get me wrong, I dont mind particularly a tatto in an obscure place, but this "Blootering the body" with them is very odd to an old yin like me :lol:
A carefully chosen tattoo, the design/significance of which is personal to you in some way (not just vandalising your body for the sake of it), can look quite cool. However, to be totally covered in them, for me, is just gross - especially when girls do it! :spew:
It just isn't feminine, and I hate butch women....
Marco.
brian2957
14-10-2015, 07:48
I was talking to a lady yesterday who was paying to get a small tattoo removed by laser She told me that it was very painful , she will need 5 sessions at £50 per session and it will likely leave a scar . She said that she was a '' different person ' from the one who got the tattoo :rolleyes:
A tattoo is for life, not just Christmas. :lol:
Anyway, enough of this daftness, let's get back on topic...
the Belden 2221 still seems to be lower at around 42pF/m but I cant find a place to buy it.. :scratch:
That stuff, for me, is too thin for what we want. Have a look: https://vimeo.com/40654120
Conductor size matters, too! It's not all just about low-capacitance... ;)
In that respect, if we're examining 'professional' cables, I think that guitar cable is more suitable than microphone cable, for producing high-quality audio interconnects. Belden 1800F is ideal, and I suspect once fitted with MS Audio plugs, will be a worthy challenger to the Klotz MC5000.
Marco.
What lead you to that conclusion?
I think that for RCA interconnects, a Coax based cable (such as the Belden 1694A) will be hard to beat.
My longest interconnects are balanced, so Microphone cable is ideal.
Anyway, enough of this daftness, let's get back on topic
That stuff, for me, is too thin for what we want. Conductor size matters, too! It's not all just about low-capacitance... ;)
In that respect, if we're examining 'professional' cables, I think that guitar cable is more suitable than microphone cable, for producing high-quality audio interconnects. Belden 1800F is ideal, and I suspect once fitted with MS Audio plugs, will be a worthy challenger to the Klotz MC5000.
Marco.
Ya, the 1800F seems to fit the bill perfectly...
What lead you to that conclusion?
Which conclusion are you referring to? If it's that the Belden cable, shown in the above video, is too thin to be optimal for use as a high quality interconnect, then it's gut feeling mixed with experience of using cables like that before. I don't use balanced connections in my system. If it works for you, cool! :)
I think that for RCA interconnects, a Coax based cable (such as the Belden 1694A) will be hard to beat.
Tried it before, and whilst it was good, it wasn't brilliant - certainly not in the league of the MC5000. However, I'm expecting the Belden 1800F to be better, but we'll see. For less than a tenner delivered, it's not a hill of beans.
In terms of a coax-based cable, I appreciate where you're coming from, which is why (as mentioned earlier) I intend to try this from Sommer: http://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/Cables-Wires/Guitar/Bass-Wires/Bulk-Cables/Sommer-Cable-SC-SPIRIT-LLX-LOW-LOSS-Instrumenten-cable::6647.html?language=en&MODsid=f11s9cjcuukcmuv6greiqhqp21
It's all just a bit of fun. I'm more than happy with the MC5000s, but if I can eke out just a little bit more from the Goldpoint, with the use of a lower capacitance cable, and for peanuts, as the Belden costs next to nothing (and I already have some spare MS Audio plugs), then why not? :cool:
Marco.
How about the Blue Jeans LC-1?
Not expensive, so it must be worth a shot?
Been there, done that, lol...
It's a very good cable though, unfortunately let down by the Canare plugs, which although intrinsically of good quality, have too much metal in their construction. You know the score, for the best sound, the only metal you want on plugs are in the conductors themselves! :)
Marco.
Belden was rubbish a couple of years ago, all tinny and one note....... Must be true, you told me so :lol:
I've been looking on the NWA website. I have no idea how much Dominic charges for his cables (they can't be bargain-cheap), but his gold plated silver interconnect, with air-gap dielectric or somesuch may just do the job - capacitance is also one of the lowest figures I've seen...
Did Mark Grant ever say what the capacitance of his cable is? It won't be high I wouldn't have thought, being as it's an rf type...
Belden was rubbish a couple of years ago, all tinny and one note....... Must be true, you told me so :lol:
Lol - I remember it well! Different Belden cable, though.
I've been looking on the NWA website. I have no idea how much Dominic charges for his cables (they can't be bargain-cheap), but his gold plated silver interconnect, with air-gap dielectric or somesuch may just do the job - capacitance is also one of the lowest figures I've seen...
Knowing Dom, it'll be fab, but I don't want to go there, as a) I'm really perfectly happy with the MC5000s, and have stopped spending big money on cables years ago, and b) I want this little project (with the passive) to be cost effective - i.e. I don't want to spend much!
I actually like the 'no nonsense' sonic presentation of professional cables, used in studios and broadcast stations, as IME it tends to be less 'contrived' than that offered by audiophile types.
Mark's cables are also excellent, and offer superb SPPV, but I've moved onto other things now, so will try the Belden and Sommer cables mentioned. If either are a little better than the MC5000s, when used in conjunction with the Goldpoint, then happy days. If not, then I'll be delighted to stick with what I've got :)
Msrco.
The Belden cables have now been fitted with MS Audio plugs, thanks to Brian (top man :thumbsup:) and are winging their way back here as we speak...
They should arrive tomorrow, so once I get a proper listen to them, and a good handle on what they're doing sonically and musically, I'll compare them to the MC5000s and (on loan) NVA SSCs, in reference to which work best, in my system, with the Goldpoint.
Also, the LDR (from Chris) has arrived, so I've arranged a bake-off tonight at Ian Walker's place, where Duncan will also be in attendance, and where we'll be comparing the Goldpoint and LDR against Ian's own shunted dual-mono passive (designed by Duncan), so full report later on that one! :cool:
Marco.
Well well, last night's sesh certainly was one! :eek: :eek:
More on that after din-dins....
Marco.
The Black Adder
21-10-2015, 18:35
:popcorn:
Well well, last night's sesh certainly was one! :eek: :eek:
More on that after din-dins....
Marco.
+1:popcorn: Got an LDR on order so waiting with baited breath, get thee tea down sharpish lad and spill t'beans ;)
Ian Walker
21-10-2015, 18:52
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
Ian, the difference really hit home when I put the LDR in my system....!
Got a few things to do and then want to watch The Apprentice, so da beanz will be spilled after that, Hudza :D
Marco.
Ian, the difference really hit home when I put the LDR in my system....!
Got a few things to do and then want to watch The Apprentice, so da beanz will be spilled after that, Hudza :D
Marco.
Yer killin me!!! :steam: fook Sir Alan wes needz to knowz:D;)
walpurgis
21-10-2015, 19:27
Yeah. Come on Marco. Spill the beans!! :lol:
(I still think you should enter a TVC into the equation)
yeah, spill dem beans, you know we are all waiting :lol:
15537
Ok, guys, to cut a long story short.... When I was round at Ian's house last night, we listened to the three passives (as previously outlined), and Ian's and mine (the Goldpoint) were pretty close in performance, with perhaps the Goldpoint just shading it, in terms of openness, top-end extension and leading edge attack. Not a lot in it, though.
However, when we put the LDR in (at Ian's) we both remarked that it sounded really good, and almost as if there was 'nothing there': just pure 'raw' music being pumped from the RPi straight into his (modded) Quad 405s, such was the extent that it appeared to get out of the way of the music. It really did rather take us aback! :eek:
Now bearing in mind that up until this point I hadn't listened to the LDR, as I'd been too busy with other things, and I thought it would be interesting to give it a first listen at Ian's. So we had a good listen to it, and the other passives, playing a wide variety of music through them (in the process I discovered a superb new artist called Sun Kil Moon: http://www.sunkilmoon.com/bio.html whom I intend to investigate more).
In the final analysis, we concluded that the LDR was probably best, as in Ian's system the other passives weren't notably far behind it in overall performance, but we agreed that the LDR did have a rather magic way of music making. Therefore, I drove home, and when I got in, connected the LDR to my system - and that's when it hit me that this little thing was doing something, musically, that NO other passive device has I've heard to date, and was immediately obvious as soon as I plugged it in.
It's the completely uncanny way it seems to 'disappear' from the equation, exhibiting almost no sense whatsoever that the signal passing through it is being 'strangled' or diluted in any way. I can detect almost no sonic signature from it all; it just seems to let music flow in the most effortless way imaginable, and so 'sounds' of nothing other than source music signal. Furthermore, it's the way the LDR reveals previously hidden micro-details in the mix, which almost leap out and say: 'hey, you've not heard me before, buster - check me out!' :eyebrows:, which never ceases to amaze and has you wanting immediately to rediscover your music collection!
Anyway, the long and short of it is that, based on what I'm hearing with the LDR, I really doubt that I'm going to be able to get the Goldpoint to sound as good, simply because of the simplistic nature of the design of the LDR, and the fact that there are so few 'bits' sitting in the signal path... I'll need to have a good think about where to take the Goldpoint (if anywhere) in order to be able to compete with the LDR, perhaps by using Z-Foils throughout.
The immediate plan for now, however, is to get used to the LDR and enjoy lots of music through it, then for the first time in about a month, plump the Croft back in, for line-level duties, and see where things are, and how it compares with the LDR. That will be a very interesting one, as with not having listened to the Croft for so long, the difference in how it sounds compared with the Goldpoint and LDR should become immediately obvious!
In the meantime, it's back to some more listening (currently playing Beethoven's Piano Concerto No2, with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales (conducted by Walter Weller) with John Lill, on piano, and it sounds mesmerisingly real!!
I should also point out that the LDR I have is the latest spec version, from Chris, with matched LDRs and the new pre control circuit, which apparently there are only three of in the world at present. More in due course, especially about how the respective cables are measuring up from Belden, NVA (SSCs) and MC5000s. That's also been rather interesting!
Laters :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
21-10-2015, 22:06
Excellent. I had a funny feeling there'd be a rather positive outcome Marco.
Not heard an LDR yet, but I'm accumulating parts to try and build one.
me too ;-)
Enjoy the tunes.. I rediscovered my music collection with this little attenuator in the chain :)
Nice write up(not my speciality); nice unbiased reporting.... Good to hear you have made yet another step up sonically, and as you say, if you dont try things you will never know what you may or may not be missing.
brian2957
21-10-2015, 22:10
Nice write up mate . The LDR is a bit of a dark horse it seems . Be nice to see where you go from here , particularly with the cables from my POV :)
Cheers, guys. At the end of the day, you've just got to tell it as you hear it - no point in kidding yourself on! :)
Based on what I'm hearing with the LDR, and what I've experienced from the passives I've heard to date: NVA P90SA (belonging to Macca), Tisbury, the Goldpoint and Duncan's DIY one, it's difficult to imagine any of the breed (regardless of the manufacturer, with much more components in their designs to impede the flow of the music signal), producing what the LDR does with music - or rather what it doesn't do...
Brian, the Beldens sound superb, mate! I'm just doing a bit more listening and comparing before I'll do a write-up on the cables :cool:
Marco.
I reckon Chris(LDR) is gonna be very busy after that, form an ordererly queue folks but I already ordered mine:ner: ( cheers again R100 for the heads up)
Lovely write up Marco, mine now can't get here fast enough.
Cheers, guys. At the end of the day, you've just got to tell it as you hear it - no point in kidding yourself on! :)
Based on what I'm hearing with the LDR, and what I've experienced from the passives I've heard to date: NVA P90SA (belonging to Macca), Tisbury, the Goldpoint and Duncan's DIY one, it's difficult to imagine any of the breed (regardless of the manufacturer, with much more components in their designs to impede the flow of the music signal), producing what the LDR does with music - or rather what it doesn't do...
Brian, the Beldens sound superb, mate! I'm just doing a bit more listening and comparing before I'll do a write-up on the cables :cool:
Marco.
Well Sov for one was very impressed with then to a degree that he makes them up himself now so they were always gonna be good. I dunno what the retail price of these things are( IE, a finished one), and it wont matter to me anyways but will be interesting to know how the spv or whatever adds up. Although not currently using it, I did like my tx based passive and am not surprised that an unconventional pre has done so well.
montesquieu
21-10-2015, 23:15
Seem to recall the DIY Hifi supply' EVA LDR passive and that Aussie bloke's one (Lightspeed?) causing a bit of a stir a few years back.
I bought an EVA II and liked it - worked well with some setups, but was a shade unforgiving in other circumstances - actually I found the experience similar to other passive experiments, in particular a high-spec Audio Note kit resistor jobbie, and a Music First Audio MkII TVC with the bigger transformer cores. (Pick of the bunch was the TVC but still not ideal with all sources).
Looks like you have a setup that likes passives, Marco but I think you are doing the right thing taking the Croft out for a while and letting your ears settle into it.
I had a similar epiphany when I first put the MFA in ... even though there was a slight loss in oomph with the phono stage, I was marvelling at the floods of detail and texture that were coming out.
But a couple of months later, putting in an active pre again (in this case a Shindo ...) turned things on its head. Be interesting to read your findings down the line.
Well Sov for one was very impressed with then to a degree that he makes them up himself now so they were always gonna be good. I dunno what the retail price of these things are( IE, a finished one), and it wont matter to me anyways but will be interesting to know how the spv or whatever adds up. Although not currently using it, I did like my tx based passive and am not surprised that an unconventional pre has done so well.
The secret is in its simplicity, Grant, with so few components muddying the music. With LDRs, there are just two optical resistors (for each channel) in the signal path, so their simplicity in avoiding switch contacts is where they excel.
As Chris put it to me in a PM, in reference to my experiment with resistors in the Goldpoint:
Keep up the good work with investigating resistors. Richard is on the right path with his comments on the Goldpoint, as you need to view the device not only by the resistor, but by the circuit board tracks, connecting wire, and above all, the switches, that look nice but sadly audio gets very lost in them similar to Lara croft and Tomb raider...
Indeed, and you can clearly hear when the detrimental effect of the above simply isn't there! The 'musical window', as it were, is effectively almost transparent :)
Marco.
The secret is in its simplicity, Grant, with so few components muddying the music. With LDRs, there are just two optical resistors (for each channel) in the signal path, so their simplicity in avoiding switch contacts is where they excel.
As Chris put it to me in a PM, in reference to my experiment with resistors in the Goldpoint:
Indeed, and you can clearly hear when the detrimental effect of the above simply isn't there! The 'musical window', as it were, is effectively almost transparent :)
Marco.
Yes I get that Marco. The TVC doesn't have a lot inside either, although probably more than an LDR. It and my other amps get on well, and an LDR may well do so to. I will be switching between my systems from time to time as the both do things I like, but are different at same time. Currently enjoying the big Sony(a better amp than maybe it gets credit for tbh) and just sitting on my ample ass, as recommended to me by the boss of things.
Hi Tom,
Seem to recall the DIY Hifi supply' EVA LDR passive and that Aussie bloke's one (Lightspeed?) causing a bit of a stir a few years back.
I bought an EVA II and liked it - worked well with some setups, but was a shade unforgiving in other circumstances - actually I found the experience similar to other passive experiments, in particular a high-spec Audio Note kit resistor jobbie, and a Music First Audio MkII TVC with the bigger transformer cores. (Pick of the bunch was the TVC but still not ideal with all sources).
Yeah, I remember the Lightspeed. I didn't pay much attention to it at the time, although a friend of Ian's (Dave Hewitt) built one for him. I think Ian liked it, but didn't consider it especially remarkable. The 'Stereo Coffee' Chris designs is a different beast, using a unique circuit, tuned to his exacting requirements - and you can hear the difference. It really is quite special :)
Looks like you have a setup that likes passives, Marco but I think you are doing the right thing taking the Croft out for a while and letting your ears settle into it.
Passives work well here because (given a healthy 2V minimum digital input source, which is provided by the RPi or Sony DAC) the Copper amp is hugely sensitive, as are the Tannoys, so there's nothing that makes life 'difficult' for a passive, thus the system allows their talents to shine. However, I understand where you're coming with the active thing, as I've been there before, although I suspect things are a little different this time.
I've taken the Croft out of the equation for a while in purpose, as that way your ears become attuned to the 'passive thing', and how it treats music signals, so that when introduced again to the 'active thing', the differences become immediately apparent. It's the only way of doing things properly and ensuring that you end up making the *right* decision, as snap judgements tell you nothing worthwhile.
Anyway, stay tuned and see how it all pans out... It's been a hugely enlightening and pleasurable learning curve for me! :cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
22-10-2015, 06:57
Hi Marco.
Very interesting indeed. I've always been interested in the LDR. I'm still quite sketchy on how it actually works though, I could do with some layman terminology if anyone can spare a few minutes?
I'd be very interested in hearing both Goldpoint and LDR together with my copper too!
Right now, though I'm loving the re-updated Croft, it's a real beast as it's perfectly matched to the copper and the sound is so fluid and snappy.
Firebottle
22-10-2015, 07:31
Hi Josie, I'll give it a shot at a laymans explanation.
A basic attenuator is a series resistance and a shunt resistance. A standard potentiometer in effect combines both with the wiper terminal dictating the resistance split between series and shunt.
As the series resistance decreases the shunt resistance increases, this ups the volume.
An LDR is a Light Dependant Resistor. The resistance varies due to the amount of light energy inside the LDR. Cleverly the light element, normally a LED, is completely isolated electrically from the resistance part. This means that when the resistance is in an audio circuit there is absolutely no degradation of the signal passing through the resistance.
To form an LDR passive two are used and arranged so that as one reduces in value the other increases in value, with a common control voltage.
This is the same as a series/shunt attenuator, hence a passive control.
Hope this is clear,
:)
Having looked on eBay and stereocoffee.com I still have no idea how much these things cost, so it is hard to put into perspective. Where could someone interested in one find out the details?
I would also like to know how much cadmium is in these compared to a flat screen LED tv?
Finding out that my TV has cadmium inside was a surprise and the risks seem "happily accepted" by people are they are blissfully unaware.
Finding out that my TV has cadmium inside was a surprise and the risks seem "happily accepted" by people are they are blissfully unaware.
That's because there are NO *real* risks, during normal usage of the TV, just the same as there are no *real* risks, during normal usage, of an LDR passive preamp. Don't be brainwashed by the agenda-driven scaremongering of deluded nutters, posing as the self-appointed 'Cadmium Police'! ;)
Marco.
Having looked on eBay and stereocoffee.com I still have no idea how much these things cost, so it is hard to put into perspective. Where could someone interested in one find out the details?
I would also like to know how much cadmium is in these compared to a flat screen LED tv?
Finding out that my TV has cadmium inside was a surprise and the risks seem "happily accepted" by people are they are blissfully unaware.
I've had my Stereo Coffee LDR (two full boards, i.e. six inputs and two outputs, so 16 actual LDR's) for over 18 months now, and I've not died yet. If you are concerned, then just don't buy one - no one is suggesting that you should, there's no need to keep going on about this.
My boards are about to go back to Chris in New Zealand to be totally rewired/upgraded to the latest spec, and converted to dual mono. Should be quite interesting!
Thanks for the constructive response.
It's really helped make an informed judgement.
Interested to hear your comments Marco when you return back to the Croft.
Having looked on eBay and stereocoffee.com I still have no idea how much these things cost, so it is hard to put into perspective. Where could someone interested in one find out the details?
I would also like to know how much cadmium is in these compared to a flat screen LED tv?
Finding out that my TV has cadmium inside was a surprise and the risks seem "happily accepted" by people are they are blissfully unaware.
I take it you are referring to quantum dots. They seem safe enough .. No user im aware of has died because of them and how many are there in homes across the world?
As said anove if you are at all concerned then best to stay clear of ldr passives. Peace of mind helps with musical enjoyment. It doesnt bother me....i worked with stuff much more disadvantageous to my health.
My point is that this technology has been in my house for the last 10 years, and I was blissfully unaware until I delved a bit deeper. It's not broken. I am not dead.
I was hoping for some information regarding cost and levels of cadmium to make an informed decision based on all the facts. I am happy with my current preamp, but if the DIY kit was cheap enough and offered a significant improvement for a risk similar to or less than a TV, you would be daft to discount it.
Working with cadmium,mI am aware of the dangers of the fumes, but if there are no fumes, there is no danger - just a risk.
anthonyTD
22-10-2015, 09:29
Good to hear that your findings on the LDR are pretty much the same as mine,:)
You did actualy hear one at mine a few months ago, however, untill you hear something in a system you know absolutely, its not always apparent how special it is.
I realy hope Chris gets some good orders from his efforts.
As for the Cadmium content,:rolleyes: i think i will bring out a new type of chewing gum, i could call it Cadmium-mint,:eek: cos chewing an LDR is about the only way your ever going to acheive even the slightest chance of contamination, Think about how many portable devices had Cadmium batteries in, and the diffrence in the amount compared to an LDR, and that should put it into context, and no, they [LDR's] dont explode, if you over power an LDR, its exactly like doing the same with an LED, it just dies, i have plenty of experience of this!:doh:Lets get real, almost every form of electronic component, has some form of toxic element, or substance contained within its construction.
Yes, Cadmium is a very toxic substance in its raw form,in that regard, its no diffrent to any other type of heavy metal, and it was the right decision to make by the government to ban its wide spread use in consumer products, as people have not been resposible enough to dispose of these products properly when the product comes to the end of its life, same reason all consumer products are built with lead -free solder.
So, until every product sold to the every-day consumer is banned for its heavy metal content, i wouldnt worry too much!
awkwardbydesign
22-10-2015, 09:34
Cadmium is a very toxic substance in its raw form,in that regard, its no diffrent to any other type of heavy metal, and it was the right decision to make by the government to ban its wide spread use in consumer products, as people have not been resposible enough to dispose of these products properly when the product comes to the end of its life, same reason all consumer products are built with lead -free solder.
Quite.
May I suggest that we port the Cadmium discussion to a new thread and keep this one on track ?
Spectral Morn
22-10-2015, 10:06
Yes the one thing missing from this thread are the costs. So folks spill the beans please ?
walpurgis
22-10-2015, 10:07
Having looked on eBay and stereocoffee.com I still have no idea how much these things cost.
Bought from China, the parts are incredibly cheap. I've now obtained most of what I need to have a go at building an LDR preamp and reckon I've spent about £10 so far. The dearest bit will be the case! I got 20 LDRs for a couple of quid.
anthonyTD
22-10-2015, 10:11
Yep,I agree,
The parts are not expensive, however, i would asume that most people would rather have a completed unit, hence, your paying for someones time, and effort.
Bought from China, the parts are incredibly cheap. I've now obtained most of what I need to have a go at building an LDR preamp and reckon I've spent about £10 so far. The dearest bit will be the case! I got 20 LDRs for a couple of quid.
I dont think you can buy and import them as a completed unit. So some building is inevitible
Building it is very straight forward. Most of the effort goes into the preparation of the case. You need to supply 12vDC, some spacers and a case. Price was around 100 dollars if I remember correctly without the case . I got one similar to this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/L-2205-Full-aluminum-Slotted-enclosure-preamp-case-headohone-amplifier-chassis-/321897192599?hash=item4af2915c97:g:FFAAAOSwpDdVJOm Z
Spectral Morn
22-10-2015, 10:26
Bought from China, the parts are incredibly cheap. I've now obtained most of what I need to have a go at building an LDR preamp and reckon I've spent about £10 so far. The dearest bit will be the case! I got 20 LDRs for a couple of quid.
Ahhhhh China, thought so.
Light Dependant Resistor
22-10-2015, 10:29
Bought from China, the parts are incredibly cheap. I've now obtained most of what I need to have a go at building an LDR preamp and reckon I've spent about £10 so far. The dearest bit will be the case! I got 20 LDRs for a couple of quid.
You are I think confusing what are open faced LDRs used in many consumer goods even street lamps as light sensors, with the parts used amongst many parts to create a LDR preamp which are audio optocouplers.
15548
These are quite different being encapsulated devices with 4 connections on one side a anode and cathode, and on the other what is called the cell being the variable resistor
activated by more or less light intensity. The attached image assists to explain the internal parts.
I use the NSL32SR2S and NSL32SR3 made by Silonex now Advanced Photonixs of Canada.
Spectral Morn
22-10-2015, 10:31
You are I think confusing what are open faced LDRs used in many consumer goods even street lamps as light sensors, with the
parts used amongst many parts to create a LDR preamp which are audio optocouplers. T15548hese are quite different being encapsulated
devices with 4 connections on one side a anode and cathode, and on the other what is called the cell being the variable resistor
activated by more or less light intensity. The attached image assists to explain the internal parts.
I use the NSL32SR2S and NSL32SR3 made by Silonex now Advanced Photonixs of Canada.
That's preferable :)
I dont think you can buy and import them as a completed unit. So some building is inevitible
Indeed, that's where good friends, who are 'handy', come in handy!
You wonder if some sad old gits elsewhere actually have any friends, or if they're just lonely, rather pitiable inadequates, dredging through their malcontented and unfulfilled lives, jealous of anyone who's genuinely HAPPY...? ;)
Marco.
Is there a link to the Stereo Coffee website anywhere?
The one I have found through Google does not work. Just interested in having a further read while I wait for long term feedback.
Is there a link to the Stereo Coffee website anywhere?
The one I have found through Google does not work. Just interested in having a further read while I wait for long term feedback.
Just this http://stores.ebay.com.au/stereo-coffee but you've probably already seen it and it also now has no items, but it had a nice descriptive write up when last visited and may be updated when he has some stock, you can sign up for his newsletter which may be helpful
Indeed, that's where good friends, who are 'handy', come in handy!
You wonder if some sad old gits elsewhere actually have any friends, or if they're just lonely, rather pitiable inadequates, dredging through their malcontented and unfulfilled lives, jealous of anyone who's genuinely HAPPY...? ;)
Marco.
That screws me then! Dont have any :D
That's what you've got a creative mind and a bicycle pump for! :D :eyebrows:
Marco.
That's what you've got a creative mind and a bicycle pump for! :D :eyebrows:
Marco.
Think you nicked it last time.....still,ive got a new way to inflate at tetminal velocity
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/22/77f37b406189744fde2f7b6eb9d21272.jpg
:rfl: :rfl: :lolsign:
Marco.
Sovereign
22-10-2015, 13:16
Hi Marco,
Glad you are liking the latest Stereo Cofee LDR, my Dual mono one should be back from Chris any day now. Have you been able to use a decent PSU for it? As I noticed when I went from a Wallwart to a proper dual mono regulated PSU there was a nice upgrade to be had.
Sovereign
22-10-2015, 13:35
Here is a snapshot of the dual mono supply that I made for my dual mono LDR
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n533/SovereignKing/IMG_2087.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/SovereignKing/media/IMG_2087.jpg.html)
And here is a pic of my daughter 'helping ' me build my LDR just to wind up those who got on the anti LDR scaremongering wagon a few months ago.
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n533/SovereignKing/image.jpg1_2.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/SovereignKing/media/image.jpg1_2.jpg.html)
awkwardbydesign
22-10-2015, 13:40
And here is a pic of my daughter 'helping ' me build my LDR just to wind up those who got on the anti LDR scaremongering wagon a few months ago.
That will explain why the wiring looks like that, then. :D
I hope she didn't eat any of the LDRs.
Sovereign
22-10-2015, 13:44
No mate just handed them out as sweets in the playground
awkwardbydesign
22-10-2015, 15:28
Would that be as a light snack?
Ali Tait
22-10-2015, 18:15
:D
Hopefully Marco can bring his LDR over to mine for listen on Sunday. :)
Guv'nor?
Only if you lick my cadmium-coated lollipop, big boy! :eyebrows:
Marco.
P.S Will reply to your PM shortly.
Hopefully Marco can bring his LDR over to mine for listen on Sunday. :)
Guv'nor?
It should lead him up the path of least resistance:)
You got the lower capacitance cables yet?
Yup! All sorts of things to be reported on, muchacho, but I'm up in Scotland at the moment, visiting friends, and soon will be over in France [unlikes others 'elsewhere', I have a life], so don't expect any major contributions here from me until around the beginning of November :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
26-10-2015, 19:34
Hi Josie, I'll give it a shot at a laymans explanation.
A basic attenuator is a series resistance and a shunt resistance. A standard potentiometer in effect combines both with the wiper terminal dictating the resistance split between series and shunt.
As the series resistance decreases the shunt resistance increases, this ups the volume.
An LDR is a Light Dependant Resistor. The resistance varies due to the amount of light energy inside the LDR. Cleverly the light element, normally a LED, is completely isolated electrically from the resistance part. This means that when the resistance is in an audio circuit there is absolutely no degradation of the signal passing through the resistance.
To form an LDR passive two are used and arranged so that as one reduces in value the other increases in value, with a common control voltage.
This is the same as a series/shunt attenuator, hence a passive control.
Hope this is clear,
:)
Hi Alan... sorry about the delay. Many thanks for the explanation. It does make sense, a bit... lol but enough I think. Thanks for taking the time to do that.
Jo:)
Apologies, chaps, for the delay in bringing this thread to a proper conclusion, but I've been away on holiday abroad, and then had friends visiting when I returned [contrary to the lonely and unfulfilled existence of some sad inadequates 'elsewhere', I do have a life outside of participating on forums ;)], so not had much time recently for contributing.
Anyway, full review of the NVA SSC/Belden/MC5000 interconnects, in conjunction with the Goldpoint, in due course, not to mention further conclusions on the LDR, and also how the Croft shaped up to the 'passive whippersnappers' when plumbed back into the system, once I've caught up with some stuff! :cool:
Marco.
Audio Al
06-11-2015, 04:24
I've been away on holiday abroad,
Thats why its been nice and quiet recently :)
Hope you enjoyed your time away ;)
Lol - glad you missed me! :eyebrows:
We did indeed enjoy our time away in France. Brought back a shed-load of wine and goodies for Christmas (how many days away is it now? :D), so can't wait to get stuck into it all and share it with family and friends over the festive period! :cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
06-11-2015, 09:38
48 days - 14 Hours - 21 Minutes
:)
http://www.xmasclock.com/
Audio Al
06-11-2015, 09:43
Thanks for the update , very helpful :D
Apologies, chaps, for the delay in bringing this thread to a proper conclusion, but I've been away on holiday abroad, and then had friends visiting when I returned [contrary to the lonely and unfulfilled existence of some sad inadequates 'elsewhere', I do have a life outside of participating on forums ;)], so not had much time recently for contributing.
Anyway, full review of the NVA SSC/Belden/MC5000 interconnects, in conjunction with the Goldpoint, in due course, not to mention further conclusions on the LDR, and also how the Croft shaped up to the 'passive whippersnappers' when plumbed back into the system, once I've caught up with some stuff! :cool:
Marco.
Mmm, did wonder why the forum was unusually busy.
The Black Adder
08-11-2015, 16:39
Shamown, Marco.... Will we have the write up tonight? :) :D
No chance, dude. Too busy with other things, beside I haven't reached a final conclusion yet! All I can promise is that it'll definitely be here before I leave for NEBO :)
Marco.
Audio Al
08-11-2015, 16:47
Shamown, Marco.... Will we have the write up tonight? :) :D
I think not
:exactly:
These things take time you know :D
No chance, dude. Too busy with other things, beside I haven't reached a final conclusion yet! All I can promise is that it'll definitely be here before I leave for NEBO :)
Marco.
Maybe:eyebrows:
These things take time you know :D
Just like a the maturing of a fine wine, or the naming of a rubber doll.... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Unpack Rachel and get out the puncture repair kit!
Maybe:eyebrows:
KE5c3aCM23U
Marco.
KE5c3aCM23U
Marco.
Naw! :lol: a man of few words indeed
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
Soz, Jim, been way too busy with one thing and another, and I like to do these things properly without rushing. I'll get to it after NEBO. Are you going tomorrow? If so, see you then :cool:
Marco.
No worries Marco, I am going tomorrow so hopefully will be able to hear it for myself!:)
See you there:cool:
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
Is the review still coming?:)
Lol - I essentially said it my review of NEBO, where I mentioned how all the passives sounded, and what I thought when the Croft went in later...
Do you remember (as you were sitting beside me) when we were listening to Steve's PL-71-fronted system (with the Eddingdales at the end), and at the time Ali's Slagle was being partnered with Gaz's 7w 300B valve amp, which was struggling to drive the room without clipping, and I said 'lets see if an active preamp gives the system a better kick up the arse?'
My thinking was that the added 'balls' delivered by an active pre (particularly a top-notch valve one) might give Gaz's power amp a bit more 'oomph'... And it did, but still not anywhere near enough to stop it from clipping, if pushed too hard. It took the introduction of the rather more powerful Radford power amp to (partially) address that problem.
However, if you remember, the Croft stayed in after that and partnered the Radford (including the Croft's in-built MM phono stage being used to partner Ali's modded Denon MC head amp), the combination of which went on to produce some truly sublime sounds from vinyl, fronted by Steve's superb PL-71 T/T. You can actually see pics of the aforementioned set up on Steve's Progmeister blog, and also on the NEBO thread here in the Community Network section.
Now.... Given what I've just written, can you get an inkling as to what my thoughts are in terms of the review promised? ;)
Marco.
Ah yes I do remember that superb partnering of your Croft pre with the Radford + Eddingdales. It certainly gave the system some life and a kick up the arse which was needed to get the best out of the PL-71 TT which sounded a tad flat and uninspiring up till then. Bought a smile to my face and as I remember the NEBO crowd were not rushing off home after that! :)
awkwardbydesign
29-11-2015, 11:41
I've looked back through ten pages of the NEBO thread and couldn't find it.
Richard, try here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?38141-NEBO-6-set-for-November-2015&p=702589#post702589
I need to extrapolate matters and tie things up a little, which I'll do here later, but you'll see what I'm referring to with Jim, if you read my report above :)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
29-11-2015, 13:02
OK, thanks. Unfortunately I am now interested in the Slagle AVC! :doh:
Ali Tait
29-11-2015, 14:39
Can't go wrong for the money Richard. 200 dollars for this level of quality is just silly value.
OK, thanks. Unfortunately I am now interested in the Slagle AVC! :doh:
And rightly so - they're fab! :thumbsup:
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
29-11-2015, 15:43
Yeah, you say that.......
But I have Promitheus TVC, a Stereo Coffee LDR (with newly added remote control function) and I just bought a little Velleman K8020 valve pre which I have just modified!
And my current Jungson JA-88D (09) amp has a preamp section which includes a MM/MC phono stage! Bypassed of course, so I can use the other pres.
I'll leave it to you to convince my wife, shall I?
Can't go wrong for the money Richard. 200 dollars for this level of quality is just silly value.
Surely it costs a bit more, as you need to build it into a case?
awkwardbydesign
29-11-2015, 16:24
Surely it costs a bit more, as you need to build it into a case?
Not if you build your own cases, as I would.
Ali Tait
29-11-2015, 16:25
Yes, that's the price of the transformers. Still a bargain..
The Black Adder
29-11-2015, 18:04
how many steps do they have?
Ali Tait
29-11-2015, 18:26
14. 28 can be had for 400 dollars-
http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html
Doesn't sound a lot, works fine for me though.
Yeah, you say that.......
But I have Promitheus TVC, a Stereo Coffee LDR (with newly added remote control function) and I just bought a little Velleman K8020 valve pre which I have just modified!
And my current Jungson JA-88D (09) amp has a preamp section which includes a MM/MC phono stage! Bypassed of course, so I can use the other pres.
I'll leave it to you to convince my wife, shall I?
Lol... Tell your wife to worry about handbags and shoes, and you'll worry about the hi-fi... :eyebrows:
Besides, if she's 'allowed' you to buy four different amps already, she can't be all that bad! ;)
Marco.
Just a small update to this thread... I've been enjoying the Goldpoint for some time now, and regularly swap between it and the Croft. Both have their respective sonic attributes, with the advantage of the Goldpoint being it not wasting the life of expensive NOS valves or using any electricity! :)
However, being a hard-wired, point-to-point kind of guy, it's bugged me for a while that the Goldpoint was fitted with a PCB (albeit a good one), so I asked Duncan to remove that and hard-wire the circuit using HGC 99.999% silver solid-core wire, and also fit some WBT 0210Cu Nextgen RCA sockets onto the critical inputs and outputs. These were chosen for their complete lack of metal parts, other than in the signal contact points, which are constructed of solid high-quality copper.
I've also moved from using 15K to 12K series resistors, in order to achieve more volume on the early steps of the switches. The result has turned out rather good:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/KamxBE.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmKamxBEj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/2e9yfq.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po2e9yfqj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/921/dKTEae.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pldKTEaej)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/RJbCQu.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnRJbCQuj)
Z-Foil resistors clearly seen above, soldered directly to the outputs.
Not had a chance to listen yet and compare the 'before & after', but will do later! :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
04-04-2016, 10:45
It looks a very neat and high quality item Marco. Your findings should be interesting.
Can't say I've got on particularly well with the various pot and stepped attenuator passives I've tried, but then, I've not tried them all.
Did you ever get around to trying an LDR type? I can't remember.
Looks good, but surely it's no longer a "Goldpoint" product? ;)
Nope, other than the case and switches - and the latter may be getting replaced too, rewired with Z-Foil resistors throughout (series and shunts, as opposed to just the former at present)... :eyebrows:
Yup, the project has served well as a learning curve, in order to ascertain which way for me, in the context of my system, is best to build a passive preamp :)
Marco.
It looks a very neat and high quality item Marco. Your findings should be interesting.
Can't say I've got on particularly well with the various pot and stepped attenuator passives I've tried, but then, I've not tried them all.
Yup, Geoff, I love it. Before these mods were carried out, it was 80% as good as my Croft, which is a £3k preamp (and has seen off many much more expensive items in its day), and the Goldpoint has cost me less than £500 so far, so that should tell its own story in terms of where it's at sonically, and in terms of SPPV... ;)
I'll be taking it along to the forthcoming Liverpool bake-off (at Oldius towers), so it'll be interesting what folks there think of it.
Did you ever get around to trying an LDR type? I can't remember.
Yes, it's currently with Chris, receiving some further updates, so it'll be interesting how that sounds when it comes back. In stock form it was very good indeed :cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
04-04-2016, 11:17
Looks good, but surely it's no longer a "Goldpoint" product? ;)
Haha.. nope... it's better than the original...
Yes, just a tad! :D
Marco.
So the thread should be renamed to something like "modifying the Goldpoint beyond all recognition" or "modding the **** out of a Goldpoint passive". :lol:
I would like to hear what a good passive is capable of one day.
brian2957
04-04-2016, 11:30
Looks very good indeed Marco . Are you bringing it to NEBO . It sounded excellent the last time round :)
Hi Brian,
Yup, no reason why not, as it's only small :)
Marco.
brian2957
04-04-2016, 17:41
Will there be any room left once you've got Martins system into the car :D
I bet he wishes he had an estate car. :lol:
As long as Macca leaves his wallet at home, we should be able to squeeze all the stuff in... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Yup, Geoff, I love it. Before these mods were carried out, it was 80% as good as my Croft, which is a £3k preamp (and has seen off many much more expensive items in its day), and the Goldpoint has cost me less than £500 so far, so that should tell its own story in terms of where it's at sonically, and in terms of SPPV... ;)
I'll be taking it along to the forthcoming Liverpool bake-off (at Oldius towers), so it'll be interesting what folks there think of it.
Yes, it's currently with Chris, receiving some further updates, so it'll be interesting how that sounds when it comes back. In stock form it was very good indeed :cool:
Marco.
Aww.. right.
I can 'believe' the bits of Silver wire, as it's 4% more ' conductive' than Copper, 'may' have audible effect. All 4 Inches of it.
But a couple of Silly expensive resistors .. that only God herself could hear audible difference with.. Does stretch gullibility.
Ermm.. What about all those other 21 (?) series resistors in the Dact gizmos? They brand Z foils too ???
Or the dozen or two resistors in the audio path ..Before AND After the signal traverses the passive?
Wish MY hearing was acute enough to differentiate what only Very Expensive Laboratory grade Test gear has trouble identifying when only ONE resistor is in the test loop, :eyebrows:
I can 'believe' the bits of Silver wire, as it's 4% more ' conductive' than Copper, 'may' have audible effect.
Excellent. I'll let you know if I can hear one, after I collect the unit later today.
But a couple of Silly expensive resistors .. that only God herself could hear audible difference with.. Does stretch gullibility.
I suggest that you read post #262, on the following link, where the resistor tests were carried out, with each type used exhibiting a different, easily discernible sonic signature, and where an explanation was given of why the Z-Foils 'won': http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40691-Goldpoint-SA4M-47-passive-preamp-winging-its-way-to-Marco-Towers&p=690855#post690855
Ermm.. What about all those other 21 (?) series resistors in the Dact gizmos? They brand Z foils too ???
Not yet, but that may happen. It'll simply depend on how far I want to go with this project.
Or the dozen or two resistors in the audio path ..Before AND After the signal traverses the passive?
Indeed, and in those areas of my system some similarly "silly expensive resistors" exist. Everything matters when optimising a hi-fi system. However, at the moment this is simply about maxing out the passive. Trust your ears, be happy and enjoy the music, is my motto! ;)
Marco.
Had a listen last night and I'm rather surprised (and shocked) at the level of improvement these recent mods have brought about! :eek:
I suspect that most of the sonic improvement gained has come from the hard-wiring and removal of the PCB... Anyway, more later, after an extended listen today :cool:
Marco.
Think Glenn Croft also came to that conclusion when he decided to hard wire all his amps many years ago.
Would be interesting to have a standard Goldpoint to have as a comparison to see how far you have improved it?
Does anyone dispute that hard wiring is better? I thought the only reason it isn't done universally is cost.
I believe that there are some misguided souls around who consider that a well-constructed PCB is better, including I believe, the chap who produces the Tisbury. The older models were all hard-wired point-to-point, but the newer ones feature a PCB, which is touted by the manufacturer as an 'improvement'! ;)
Marco.
Think Glenn Croft also came to that conclusion when he decided to hard wire all his amps many years ago.
Would be interesting to have a standard Goldpoint to have as a comparison to see how far you have improved it?
Yup, Jimbo, Glenn got it right long ago. In terms of the latter, yes indeed. However, I have a sufficiently retentive memory to know that the unit, as configured now, is sonically in a totally different league! ;)
And not as a result of any massive expenditure either, mostly just adjustments borne from common sense and good engineering practice.... :)
Marco.
Does anyone dispute that hard wiring is better? I thought the only reason it isn't done universally is cost.
Cost, and difficulty to make at scale. This is why LFD gear is bench-made one at a time, because they use a lot of point-to-point wiring (even if it looks like a PCB from the top).
Just a quick note to report that the improvements brought about by the removal of the Goldpoint's PCB, and hardwiring of the circuit instead with solid-silver wire, have been significant, and once again confirms to me that, when possible and practical, hardwiring is the way to go. One of the biggest advantages in this instance has probably been the significant reduction in the number of solder joints.
So what were the sonic benefits? Mainly, the removal of a perceived 'artificiality': as if there was something holding back the music and not allowing it 'full reign', and consequently, since the hardwiring and PCB removal has taken place, music has been allowed to 'breathe' properly, resulting in greater overall levels of clarity and a more convincing rendition of instruments and vocals.
In short, this passive device now makes music sound more 'effortless' and natural, as well as increasing both detail retrieval and musical insight. I'm unsure just how much influence the solid-copper/minimal-metal construction of the WBT RCAs have had on proceedings, as they were fitted at the same time as the hardwiring was done, but previous experience has taught me that there are always subtle, but worthwhile gains to be had when using plugs and sockets a) with minimal metal content, and b) that feature signal conductor/contact points made from either solid-silver or solid-copper.
The increase in signal conductivity/integrity, offered over their high-metal content/brass conductor counterparts, is usually always audible in a revealing (and well sorted) system. Therefore, in that respect, I'm sure that the WBTs are playing their part in the truly superb sounds I'm hearing now from this passive device. It is certainly one of the items I'll be bringing to the forthcoming NEBO bake-off, where it'll be interesting to see what others make of it now :cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
21-04-2016, 09:24
Very interesting, Marco... I'm still very interested in this to be honest. So would you say that the GP is better with digital or analogue? Or is it a suck it n see kinda thang?
Stratmangler
21-04-2016, 09:47
Shouldn't this thread title be changed?
The Goldpoint SA4M-47 case might still be in use, but it ain't a Goldpoint SA4M-47 inside ;)
Very true, Chris. The Goldpoint was an experiment, and my first serious foray into the world of passive 'preamps', and as such has served as a valuable learning curve into what to do and what not to do with a series-type passive device, within of course the context of my system. It's been an interesting and rewarding journey :)
Jo, I'll come back to you later on that. Got a busy day today, with various things unrelated to hi-fi, one of which is finally sorting out a new set of wheels for my car. What a saga that was!! Anyway, that's one for another thread.
Laters :cool:
Marco.
brian2957
21-04-2016, 12:36
Just a quick note to report that the improvements brought about by the removal of the Goldpoint's PCB, and hardwiring of the circuit instead with solid-silver wire, have been significant, and once again confirms to me that, when possible and practical, hardwiring is the way to go. One of the biggest advantages in this instance has probably been the significant reduction in the number of solder joints.
So what were the sonic benefits? Mainly, the removal of a perceived 'artificiality': as if there was something holding back the music and not allowing it 'full reign', and consequently, since the hardwiring and PCB removal has taken place, music has been allowed to 'breathe' properly, resulting in greater overall levels of clarity and a more convincing rendition of instruments and vocals.
In short, this passive device now makes music sound more 'effortless' and natural, as well as increasing both detail retrieval and musical insight. I'm unsure just how much influence the solid-copper/minimal-metal construction of the WBT RCAs have had on proceedings, as they were fitted at the same time as the hardwiring was done, but previous experience has taught me that there are always subtle, but worthwhile gains to be had when using plugs and sockets a) with minimal metal content, and b) that feature signal conductor/contact points made from either solid-silver or solid-copper.
The increase in signal conductivity/integrity, offered over their high-metal content/brass conductor counterparts, is usually always audible in a revealing (and well sorted) system. Therefore, in that respect, I'm sure that the WBTs are playing their part in the truly superb sounds I'm hearing now from this passive device. It is certainly one of the items I'll be bringing to the forthcoming NEBO bake-off, where it'll be interesting to see what others make of it now :cool:
Marco.
Well it was very good indeed the last time I heard it . I'm looking forward to hearing it again at the next NEBO .
realysm42
22-04-2016, 06:53
This thread made for an intetesting dinner time read. I did skim lots of it; is the conclusion that the Croft and the passive are staying in the system Marco?
Hi Martin,
Yup... They're very close to each other in overall performance, with the Croft adding just a touch of expansiveness and 'airiness' (the valve thing), but probably for ultimate transparency, and the ability to forensically 'peer into' recordings, the 'Goldpoint' has it.
I also need the Croft for its superb phono stage! :cool:
Marco.
Very interesting, Marco... I'm still very interested in this to be honest. So would you say that the GP is better with digital or analogue? Or is it a suck it n see kinda thang?
It does both with equal aplomb, Jo. Thus modified, it is an extremely transparent device, and acts as a veritable 'open window' onto recordings, providing a level of musical insight that is simply breathtaking. As such, it doesn't really have a 'sound' - what you hear is simply the source music, unhindered in all its glory :)
Highly recommended, but don't waste money like I did buying a Goldpoint. If you want what I've got now (or even better what Ian has), just PM Duncan for the details, and he'll build it for you :cool:
The Z-Foils are where the real magic stems from ;)
Marco.
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