View Full Version : FS: Surgical Silk for TT belts handmaking
Surgical silk is one of the best materials to make turntables belts.
It improves the sound quality because the suppleness of rubber causes delay and as such sound smearing.
Using a silk belt the sound gets more clear, dynamic and defined.
A silk belt never gets old, it goes on working flawlessly for years and years, so no need of substitutions.
My Kuzma TT is equipped with a silk belt since many years. It has not variable speed, but the easiest way to use a silk belt is with variable speed TT's.
The silk on sale is of the highest quality, it comes from the italian factory of Ciba Geigy, called Ergon Sutramed.
I can supply two lenghts: 1,20 and 2,45 metres.
Price is 10 euro for 1,20 metres and 20 euro for 2,45 metres plus shipping (stamp cost).
Payments with paypal.
Every purchaser receives by email a manual with instructions and pictures about making easily a silk belt.
Shipment can be done either with registered or unregistered mail.
Please consider that with unregistered mail there is no tracking number or proof of delivery, so i cannot bear any responsability for non delivered unregistered shipments.
Any question is welcome
progwit@yahoo.it
http://i60.tinypic.com/1zm1rbp.jpg
Surgical silk is one of the best materials to make turntables belts.
It improves the sound quality because the suppleness of rubber causes delay and as such sound smearing.
Using a silk belt the sound gets more clear, dynamic and defined.
A silk belt never gets old, it goes on working flawlessly for years and years, son no need of substitutions.
Ny Kuzma TT is equipped with a silk belt since many years. It has not variable speed, but the easiest way to use a silk belt is with variable speed TT's.
The silk on sale is of the highest quality, it comes from the italian factory of Ciba Geigy, called Ergon Sutramed.
I can supply two lenghts: 1,20 and 2,45 metres.
Price is 10 euro for 1,20 metres and 20 euro for 2,45 metres plus shipping (stamp cost).
Payments with paypal.
Every purchaser receives by email a manual with instructions and pictures about making easily a silk belt.
Shipment can be done either with registered or unregistered mail.
Please consider that with unregistered mail there is no tracking number or proof of delivery, so i cannot bear any responsability for non delivered unregistered shipments.
Any question is welcome
progwit@yahoo.it
http://i60.tinypic.com/1zm1rbp.jpg
Interesting Claudio. I like that idea, and may get some from you....
Interesting Claudio. I like that idea, and may get some from you....
You are welcome, Grant.
Thinking about this matter, it seems impossible that an element out of the audio signal path can give a difference. The belt instead has a primary influence in the way the TT sounds.
Its effect can be seen as something rather similar to what one expects to obtain using a jitter reduction in a digital chain. Both are involved with time: timing error of the samples in the digital signal and reduction of the delay involved with the motion transmission to the platter made by a rubber belt, that gives timing error as well.
You are welcome, Grant.
Thinking about this matter, it seems impossible that an element out of the audio signal path can give a difference. The belt instead has a primary influence in the way the TT sounds.
Its effect can be seen as something rather similar to what one expects to obtain using a jitter reduction in a digital chain. Both are involved with time: timing error of the samples in the digital signal and reduction of the delay involved with the motion transmission to the platter made by a rubber belt, that gives timing error as well.
Not at all. I replaced a belt for a better fit one and it was a big improvement in sound. one of the most important parts of a belt drive is the belt .... will try to get one next week :)
Not at all. I replaced a belt for a better fit one and it was a big improvement in sound. one of the most important parts of a belt drive is the belt .... will try to get one next week :)
Whenever you want, Grant. :)
I was actually on the lookout for the original spool of thread that comes with the Verdier Nouvelle... I lost my spool...
I think I will get one length from you soon. At any rate it would be a great idea to see what differences will occur!
I was actually on the lookout for the original spool of thread that comes with the Verdier Nouvelle... I lost my spool...
I think I will get one length from you soon. At any rate it would be a great idea to see what differences will occur!
Hi Manav. A friend of mine uses surgical silk with his Verdier Platine with excellent results.
Usually silk belts give a remarkable improvement for sound quality, no matter about the TT they are used with.
This is a very very elegant solution for one of the key issues associated with an elastic belt. Makes me wonder why rubber is even used...
This is a very very elegant solution for one of the key issues associated with an elastic belt. Makes me wonder why rubber is even used...
Well, maybe because rubber belts are easy to purchase and install, while there is not a production of silk dedicated to turntables?
Apart that, a rubber belts acts also as a filter for the mechanical disturbs coming from the motor, even if this function has its drawbacks, that is the reason for the sound quality improvement involved with a silk belt.
Anyway, the use of rubber belts leaves a larger field to compulsive tweakers like me... :lol:
Ordered and paid for Claudio..:) worth a go I'd say.
Ordered and paid for Claudio..:) worth a go I'd say.
Thank you, Grant.
Payment received right now.
I am going to email you the manual and ship the silk tomorrow.
I will confirm the tracking number as soon as shipment is on its way.
Regards,
Claudio
The following video shows how a silk belt is able to start and bring quickly enough to the correct speed the 5 kgs platter of a Kuzma Stabi S, plus a 800 grs. high density graphite clamp :reel:
https://youtu.be/OOKd6vmGL68
ovlov854
01-11-2015, 09:59
Interesting post:scratch:
I presume that this also would work on the LP12 and the speed change provided by the Lingo PSU??
Hi Claudio,
Do you think the silk belt would be suitable for use with a VPI Turntable? Most of the VPI TT use a rubber belt and similar PSU.
Interesting post:scratch:
I presume that this also would work on the LP12 and the speed change provided by the Lingo PSU??
Hi Martin,
yes, a surgical silk belt can work on any belt TT.
Depending on the shape of the pulley and other elements, a little patience can be needed to obtain the best performance, as usual with any modification.
Anyway, because of their sound character Linn LP 12's are among the TT that can obtain the greater improvement using a silk belt. More detail, precision, sound spacing and 3D, more extended and controlled bass are among the benefits given by such a belt.
Hope I have answered to your doubts. Should you have more or need info, please reply here or email me.
Any request will be welcome!
Best regards,
Claudio
Hi James,
as I just said to Martin, a silk belt by principle can work on any belt TT.
Depending on the shape of the pulley and other elements, a little patience can be needed to obtain the best performance, as usual with any modification.
Every purchaser receives a manual describing how to make the belt and the knot and many other suggestions about installing and obtaining the best of a surgical silk belt.
For any other doubt or info, please reply here, email or send me a private message.
Any request will be welcome!
Best regards,
Claudio
ovlov854
03-11-2015, 17:35
PM on its way
isn't the rubber belt on suspended decks like an lp12 part of the suspesion to a certain degree and also plays a roll in the famous bounce?
i don't think silk in this instance would be suitable but happy to be told different :)
Ordered and paid for Claudio..:) worth a go I'd say.
have you fitted it let grant?
isn't the rubber belt on suspended decks like an lp12 part of the suspesion to a certain degree and also plays a roll in the famous bounce?
i don't think silk in this instance would be suitable but happy to be told different :)
No experience with Lp12's but with my second TT, an Ariston Audio RD 40 with heavy platter and electronic motor, the improvement in performance involved with a surgical silk belt has been subjectively bigger than with the Kuzma.
I didn't notice any issue about the correct working of the suspension.
PM on its way
You have reply :)
ovlov854
16-11-2015, 13:08
Oh dear. Spent a large part of yesterday trying to get this right. Getting the right length is very awkward.
When I did get it correct the silk kept on slipping off.
LP12 pulley will need rubber rings to work but I forsee bumps each time knot goes round the pulley and hits rubber ring
Any ideas anyone
have you fitted it let grant?
Sorry Jamie never saw your post. Yes i tried but it wouldnt grip for me properly. May just be me.
Oh dear. Spent a large part of yesterday trying to get this right. Getting the right length is very awkward.
When I did get it correct the silk kept on slipping off.
LP12 pulley will need rubber rings to work but I forsee bumps each time knot goes round the pulley and hits rubber ring
Any ideas anyone
Sorry Jamie never saw your post. Yes i tried but it wouldnt grip for me properly. May just be me.
Hi Martin, Hi Struth,
hope to be not too rude if I ask you a question: did you read the manual I sent you?
Please let me know if there is some part difficult to understand.
After all I am not English mothertongue and an advice about that would be welcome.
Barrel like pulley
If the pulley is barrel like, rubber rings can be purchased at any auto parts shop, asking for O-rings.
Don't forget to check the size needed, measuring the diameter of the pulley with a caliber gauge.
About the bumps
Of course the belt has to be mounted with the knot facing outside, so the pulley "sees" a continuous surface.
Checking the video I posted and watching at the stroboscope, can be clearly seen that the platter steadily rotates at the right speed and doesn't suffer of the heavy irregularities that bumps would give.
Belt slipping
If the belt slips its length could be not the right one.
If it is tensioned enough, that means some more than a rubber one, there are three ways to avoid slipping, but first of all pulley and subplatter have to be perfectly clean.
Mounting the belt wearing cotton gloves can help to keep their surfaces free of contaminants.
The platter could be started by hand, then switch on the motor. Keeping the right speed instead than reaching it from still, needs less power.
Second, ravelling the belt with the edge of a metal nail file gives it more dragging properties.
Third, the use of a spray for car belts, available in any auto parts shop can be very helpful.
Just spray it evenly on the belt.
Please let me point out that I did not need any of the three and still have my turntable equipped with a silk belt for years, starting and reaching quickly enough the correct speed as can be seen in the video.
I don't think I own this special wizardry that allowed me to have the belt working correctly without struggling too much. Just some patience and commitment.
So my advice is to take the time that is needed to try, without giving up.
When feeling tired, stop for some time and start over next day, or week.
The improvement for sound quality given by a silk belt deserves it.
Eventually, the silk could be put apart for a while to make some practice with dental floss or sewing thread and try with the advices described before.
After that, working with the silk would be easier.
Hope that all these advices will be helpful, but more than all patience and commitment will do.
The idea that installing this "upgrade" might make me so tired that I would have to rest for a week before continuing with it makes me wonder if it could ever be worth the effort.
Life is too short.
The idea that installing this "upgrade" might make me so tired that I would have to rest for a week before continuing with it makes me wonder if it could ever be worth the effort.
Life is too short.
Well, Robert, in this sunny morning I really hope that you have been able to rest at least for a while. :)
So, maybe now you will have the patience to, please, watch at the video I posted some time ago.
https://youtu.be/OOKd6vmGL68
And then to read until the end the rather long explanation that you can find below.
As I already told, the video portrays my 5 kgs. platter + 0,8 kgs HD graphite clamp equipped Kuzma Stabi S correctly working with a silk belt.
You see, I posted it just to avoid comments like yours.
As it can clearly be seen, the platter starts promptly from still without any help, reaches the correct speed in a reasonable amount of time and keeps it steadily, as indicates the biggest strobo I could find, used because it would show the smaller issue about speed.
After watching the video, I don't see how a comment like yours can be posted, without thinking that there must be a hidden motor that does the job the main one is not able to do, when equipped with a silk belt.
Correct?
Well, today for me is a busy day. But tonight or at least tomorrow morning I will be back with a new video, showing that there is nothing that moves the platter apart the turntable motor, connected to the subplatter with a belt made of the same surgical silk I send to anyone asks for it.
It will be seen that it works without any trick, like ravelling it with a nail file or using car belts spray.
That said, I ask you once again to be patient enough to read the explanation below.
First step is trying to have an idea about the physical and mechanical nature of a belt.
The easiest thing to do to obtain a TT belt is to use something very supple and grippy, just like the usual rubber belt is.
This is the most expeditious way and as such is the preferred by the industry, because it works according to the hard principle that time is money.
A rubber belt has many advantages indeed: it stretches, so adheres effectively to pulley and subplatter surfaces and favours the dissipation of the motor induced vibrations. In this way the propagation of the harmful motor produced rumble and its picking up by the cartridge is positively reduced.
So it has many positives, but because of its suppleness has some cons as well.
The other side of the medal of its suppleness, is that it means compliance. So a rubber belt tends to store energy and a remarkable amount of the energy ouput of the motor tends to be imprisoned in the belt, that dissipates it in heat during a rather long amount of time, instead of transferring the most of it to the subplatter.
Energy storing equals time delay, that in the end causes sound smearing.
This is the reason why many audiophiles still prefer idlers or directs instead of belters.
A surgical silk belt is the opposite of a rubber belt.
With it there is almost no compliance, energy storage and sound smearing. Apart that, it doesn't get longer or suffer degradation over time, but its grip is low.
So it needs a higher precision in its length to work correctly, as in the video I posted.
This obviously can be more difficult to obtain than with a rubber belt.
So it needs patience and what in italian is called "applicazione", that means the will to pursue a result that can be not so easy at first try, and I hope the word commitment is able to render to any English reader.
But when we manage to have the right belt lenght, there can be no more idler or direct lover able to rightfully claim the superiority of the kind of TT's he prefers over the belters.
In my point of view this is a results well worth of some patience and commitment. Mostly because we have the powerful and detailed sound of idlers and directs, but largely without the remarkable shortcomings inherent to their nature.
About this matter, my recommendation is to do some practice with dental floss (non waxed), that can give an idea of the improvements available using a less supple belt.
Surgical silk is a big step beyond, giving sound results way better of dental floss.
Thanks to anybody has been patient enough to read until now and most of all try to understand.
Well, Robert, in this sunny morning I really hope that you have been able to rest at least for a while. :)
So, maybe now you will have the patience to, please, watch at the video I posted some time ago.
https://youtu.be/OOKd6vmGL68
And then to read until the end the rather long explanation that you can find below.
As I already told, the video portrays my 5 kgs. platter + 0,8 kgs HD graphite clamp equipped Kuzma Stabi S correctly working with a silk belt.
You see, I posted it just to avoid comments like yours.
As it can clearly be seen, the platter starts promptly from still without any help, reaches the correct speed in a reasonable amount of time and keeps it steadily, as indicates the biggest strobo I could find, used because it would show the smaller issue about speed.
After watching the video, I don't see how a comment like yours can be posted, without thinking that there must be a hidden motor that does the job the main one is not able to do, when equipped with a silk belt.
Correct?
Well, today for me is a busy day. But tonight or at least tomorrow morning I will be back with a new video, showing that there is nothing that moves the platter apart the turntable motor, connected to the subplatter with a belt made of the same surgical silk I send to anyone asks for it.
It will be seen that it works without any trick, like ravelling it with a nail file or using car belts spray.
That said, I ask you once again to be patient enough to read the explanation below.
First step is trying to have an idea about the physical and mechanical nature of a belt.
The easiest thing to do to obtain a TT belt is to use something very supple and grippy, just like the usual rubber belt is.
This is the most expeditious way and as such is the preferred by the industry, because it works according to the hard principle that time is money.
A rubber belt has many advantages indeed: it stretches, so adheres effectively to pulley and subplatter surfaces and favours the dissipation of the motor induced vibrations. In this way the propagation of the harmful motor produced rumble and its picking up by the cartridge is positively reduced.
So it has many positives, but because of its suppleness has some cons as well.
The other side of the medal of its suppleness, is that it means compliance. So a rubber belt tends to store energy and a remarkable amount of the energy ouput of the motor tends to be imprisoned in the belt, that dissipates it in heat during a rather long amount of time, instead of transferring the most of it to the subplatter.
Energy storing equals time delay, that in the end causes sound smearing.
This is the reason why many audiophiles still prefer idlers or directs instead of belters.
A surgical silk belt is the opposite of a rubber belt.
With it there is almost no compliance, energy storage and sound smearing. Apart that, it doesn't get longer or suffer degradation over time, but its grip is low.
So it needs a higher precision in its length to work correctly, as in the video I posted.
This obviously can be more difficult to obtain than with a rubber belt.
So it needs patience and what in italian is called "applicazione", that means the will to pursue a result that can be not so easy at first try, and I hope the word commitment is able to render to any English reader.
But when we manage to have the right belt lenght, there can be no more idler or direct lover able to rightfully claim the superiority of the kind of TT's he prefers over the belters.
In my point of view this is a results well worth of some patience and commitment. Mostly because we have the powerful and well defined sound of idlers and directs, but largely without the remarkable shortcomings inherent to their nature.
About this matter, my recommendation is to do some practice with dental floss (non waxed), that can give an idea of the improvements available using a less supple belt.
Surgical silk is a big step beyond, giving sound results way better of dental floss.
Thanks to anybody has been patient enough to read until now and most of all try to understand.
Sorry man I am feeling a bit tired so have had to stop reading your post for a while.
Sorry man I am feeling a bit tired so have had to stop reading your post for a while.
For sure there's no reason not to believe you are so tired. :zzz:
As such, of course couldn't even reply to the question I made you.
But no problem, Robert. Most important is that you have a really nice relax :sofa:
It is well known to do miracles for promoting mind openness as well... ;)
Whenever you feel ready and strong enough to deal with this, you can find me here. :wave:
sq225917
20-11-2015, 22:47
This is a very very elegant solution for one of the key issues associated with an elastic belt. Makes me wonder why rubber is even used...
Because they are grippy, isolate motor noise, can be used with crowned pulleys and are easily mass produced for specific decks. And they work.
I read some of this yesterday and didn't realise it was a sales thread so Paul is correct. If someone is advertising something for sale don't post on the sales thread saying it is crap or doesn't work. If you are negative about it start another thread and criticise it there.
I read some of this yesterday and didn't realise it was a sales thread so Paul is correct. If someone is advertising something for sale don't post on the sales thread saying it is crap or doesn't work. If you are negative about it start another thread and criticise it there.
Sorry Martin, I was only noting that the two people who had actually bought this had said it was not working for them. I was never negative about whether the use of surgical silk could bring an improvement in sound over a rubber band.
I can only assume that it must bring an improvement as otherwise it is a lot of time to spend on something for such a small profit.
I would further say that if you can afford the small price for this product, then it must be worth trying out, if you have a spare weekend or two, and Buddhist reserves of patience.
Claudio, if I did decide to try this on my Thorens TD-150ii, how would I resolve the problem of the difference in the 33/45 speed spindle size?
Robert
Thank you Martin for having stopped something that was getting into a flame.
Please let me first point out that my intentions were just to share with other guys the excellent results for sound quality I experimented on my turntables with silk belts.
But some words sounded like the will to lay a bad label on me.
Using a silk belt can be not so easy. After all I never said it is.
Seen that problems have been reported in having a belt correctly working, first of all I tried to give all the advices and the tricks I could. They come from many years of experience about belts made of unusual materials.
Then I tried to explain that just like anything else, if the pros of a silk belt are in not having the defects of the rubber, anyway has still its own defects, given by its nature.
For sure I believe other guys when they say that it is difficult to make a silk belt that works correctly, even if I didn't find such difficulties.
Maybe because when I have been able to begin using the surgical silk, I already had a long experience with other unusual materials.
This is why I wrote in my manual and repeated here that making some experience with dental floss and sewing thread, not only can be very useful but allowed me to use a silk belt in a satisfactory manner without struggling too much.
To prove what I say I posted a video showing that such a belt can work correctly about start, speed and so on.
If after that someone says "I don't mind about your video, there are just two persons over two that reported problems", I would say "OK, I see and I am sorry, but before judging please take all records into account". That seems to me a reasonable way to do.
Now you know my point of view.
I wish to say that Robert has sent me a nice PM and had my reply, so we explained each other.
Regards,
Claudio
I would further say that if you can afford the small price for this product, then it must be worth trying out, if you have a spare weekend or two, and Buddhist reserves of patience.
Claudio, if I did decide to try this on my Thorens TD-150ii, how would I resolve the problem of the difference in the 33/45 speed spindle size?
Robert
Hi Robert, thank you for your question.
As I remarked in my last post, I am not Buddhist :) and neither needed the reserves of patience typical of many followers of that religion, in order to make my belt working.
Probably the reason is that before having the chance of using surgical silk, I had already a rather long experience in using exotic materials for belts making.
About this matter, anyway, more than with Buddhism, it could be related with zen (and the art of fine tuning TT's and audio gear) :)
Unfortunately a silk belt does not fit well with 33/45 rpm speed changes, when these are obtained with pulleys of different diameter.
So, if you really need the 45 rpm speed, something that maybe is not so common today, you will have to at least double your patience, as two different belts will be needed. :)
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