View Full Version : Turntable lid - up or down during play?
Phil Lawton
22-09-2015, 09:54
Probably been asked/discussed here before, so is probably a can of worms I've yet to stumble across.
Up or down during playback? Pros/cons either way?
I'm an 'up' man for no other reason than aesthetics.
Think id say not up but off.
RobbieGong
22-09-2015, 10:01
Yep! Off - lid can impart airborne vibration, footfall and so on , hence off :)
Wakefield Turntables
22-09-2015, 10:04
Off plus remove your hinges as well. Less chance of vibration into your plinth
Gordon Steadman
22-09-2015, 10:25
Which ever way it sounds better.
Probably been asked/discussed here before, so is probably a can of worms I've yet to stumble across.
Up or down during playback? Pros/cons either way?
I'm an 'up' man for no other reason than aesthetics.
Neither - it should be OFF. Lids are only of use for keeping out dust, and so should be (fitted and closed) when your T/T is not in use.
At any other time, they degrade the sound, by introducing unwanted resonance, so should be left off.
Marco.
walpurgis
22-09-2015, 10:38
Off!
Phil Lawton
22-09-2015, 11:54
I think I'm getting an 'off' vibe....
Do you wear your pants to bed?
Well........ ;)
Marco.
frilly or plain Y fronts? - just asking:)
Depends what game we're playing! :D
Marco.
I do sometimes....
I'm making no comment on that! :nono:
Marco.
Phil Lawton
22-09-2015, 13:02
Just the normal rubber ones.
Do you wear your pants to bed?
Well........ ;)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
22-09-2015, 13:09
On. Life is too short to mess around removing it every time. And there is a definite risk of wacking the arm with it. Plus I leave it down sometimes, especially if the TV is on, muted of course, as it would obscure the bottom of the screen. And we have problems with dust, so it keeps the record clean as it plays. The Oracle lid has adjustable springs, so the front edge floats.
I also use a Dustbug, with the brush removed. :eek:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/Mobile%20Uploads/20150922_141133_zpstb68a437.jpg
Oldpinkman
22-09-2015, 13:12
Interesting thoughts. Airborne vibrations will undoubtedly affect a turntable. Why do they hit the lid, travel into the plinth, and cause a problem?
Why do they not hit the platter, or arm, and cause a problem directly on the transducer of the cartridge if the lid is up or off?
If your plinth is designed to absorb vibrations fed into it, why can it not do that with the ones from the lid?
Why does a lid not shield a cartridge arm from airborne vibrations ?
Try a simple experiment. Rest the stylus on the record without the platter and record turning, near the edge of the record. Wear headphones. Turn the volume up loud. Put your mouth close to the cartridge and talk loudly
Or take your electric guitar, turn it to face your PA and bring it close to the speakers
Do you have a microphone?
Would a lid , like a studio box, shield a microphone from airborne vibration? http://ralaudio.com/images/postaudio/arf32-3of7-side-mic.jpg
Off including hinges. I use a Michell UniCover to keep off most of the dust when I'm not using the turntable.
In theorey the lid should shield the cartridge from some aiorborne vibration. So leaving the lid on and down when playing would seem to be the best option - BUT - if you try this and compare to the sound with lid removed entirely you will probably prefer the latter sound, I think. I did. The difference is pretty minimal either way but there is a difference.
Lid attached and up whilst playing is the worst of all worlds, In my system this has a subtle but clearly detrimental effect on the sound quality, which is what you'd expect. Like attaching a rigid sail to your deck.
walpurgis
22-09-2015, 14:57
With the lid down, there's a little more to it. The top of the lid acting like a big microphone causing the air contained under the lid to resonate, probably at a few hundred hertz. This being picked up by the record and cartridge/arm in turn.
Think about it this way: since when have you seen a proper high-end turntable (and here I mean ones in excess of £5k), fitted with a plastic lid? There's a reason for that, and it's because it has no place on such a thing.
Up or down, it'll make your T/T sound SHIT, in comparison to how it does with no lid fitted - end of! :exactly:
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
22-09-2015, 15:31
Think about it this way: since when have you seen a proper high-end turntable (and here I mean ones in excess of £5k), fitted with a plastic lid? There's a reason for that, and it's because it has no place on such a thing.
Up or down, it'll make your T/T sound SHIT, in comparison to how it does with no lid fitted - end of! :exactly:
Marco.
Or they are following fashion. Or they can't get one to fit on their weird shaped TT. Or they don't like the look of it.
VPI do not have lids fitted to any of there TT including the cheapest for the very reason that they have no positive effect.
Airborne vibrations can only be accentuated by a lid which surely is not a good thing for a TT which if designed well is trying to free itself of unwanted vibration.
Or they are following fashion. Or they can't get one to fit on their weird shaped TT. Or they don't like the look of it.
Yes, all that, including the fact that it sounds mucho PISHANTO! :ner:
Marco.
Phil Lawton
22-09-2015, 15:50
On. Life is too short to mess around removing it every time. And there is a definite risk of wacking the arm with it. Plus I leave it down sometimes, especially if the TV is on, muted of course, as it would obscure the bottom of the screen. And we have problems with dust, so it keeps the record clean as it plays. The Oracle lid has adjustable springs, so the front edge floats.
I also use a Dustbug, with the brush removed. :eek:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/Mobile%20Uploads/20150922_141133_zpstb68a437.jpg
That's a beautiful thing.
Phil Lawton
22-09-2015, 15:53
OK....I'll try experimenting and report back if I find a difference one way or another.
Thanks, chaps.
That's a beautiful thing.
Yes, apart from the turntable lid! :lol: :D
;)
Marco.
On. Life is too short to mess around removing it every time. And there is a definite risk of wacking the arm with it. Plus I leave it down sometimes, especially if the TV is on, muted of course, as it would obscure the bottom of the screen. And we have problems with dust, so it keeps the record clean as it plays. The Oracle lid has adjustable springs, so the front edge floats.
I also use a Dustbug, with the brush removed. :eek:
I leave mine up ,and on , but its only an old Pioneer PL A35 , too much faffing to take it off and the floors as solid as a rock.
Loads of dust here too.
The brush removed from the Dustbug!! Very good . I can see why , as the brush 'plays' the grooves , does it not ?
I had a dustbug type cleaner (silver arm , black sticky pad base ) given to me with the Pioneer , and someone had removed the brush off the end . Its the same as another 70's one I have but the end brush is very soft unlike the Watts dustbug one I had with a HMV TT.
awkwardbydesign
22-09-2015, 17:31
That's a beautiful thing.
Yes, apart from the turntable lid! :lol: :D
;)
Marco.
Which arrived cracked, as the idiot sent it still attached! Of course it shifted, and tore the hinges off. :doh:
I got a discount, about £350 total paid, but I had to make a clamp and pillar tops. I have a lathe so it wasn't too bad. Then I made Delrin pillars and feet, plus the silicone dashpots from the Mk6, aly armboards, and a foamed vinyl mat. There is a magnetic arm lift on it too, for when I fall asleep; stops the stylus wearing out. :D
Oh, and polycarbonate "skirts", as the stupid lid only comes down halfway and lets all the dust in! On my old Gyrodeck, I made a deeper lid and fixed it to the shelf, not the deck.
awkwardbydesign
22-09-2015, 17:34
Yes, all that, including the fact that it sounds mucho PISHANTO! :ner:
Marco.
Well, if you will have a deck with no suspension.........
Seems to me with a suspended deck at least where the important bits are isolated from the top plate and hence the lid, on and down during play would seem the best... for best results give the undersides of the lid a full acoustic treatment complete with bass traps in the corners. The end result will be so ugly it's sure to impress your friends and show them you're a true audiophile who puts sound before looks.
I don't and never have had a lid for my TTs. Though if I did I would probably play with the lid up, if not off.
Clive197
22-09-2015, 23:19
OFF,OFF, OFF. Sorry I was getting carried away.
Hilarious !!
Lid on ... and shut !
And strenuously avoid playing any records at all
end of
(or not quite - before leaving your statically vulnerable vinyl on a turntable exposed for any length of time, consider what your house is made of and how much these materials contribute to the dust floating in the atmosphere of any space in that room and how abrasive any of those particulates might be ... weigh that up against any possible microphonic effect that might really be present if you play your records with the lid shut)
Oldpinkman
23-09-2015, 05:19
For goodness sake, where do you guys buy your physics. There is no micro phonic effect from a shut lid. The reflection of sound waves through the lid, vibrating th the lid which vibrates the air under it is just imperfect shielding, not added microphony. As others have noted, a shut lid is only really a benefit if that plinth it is attached to is isolated from the transducer by a chassis suspension - which works properly
awkwardbydesign
23-09-2015, 07:50
I think there is a lot of fashion involved in the choice. And I'm definitely not fashionable! Exposed drive units on speakers is another fashion I'm not fond of, especially as it's quite possible to make speakers which sound "right" with grills on. Discuss.
It may have been noticed that my speakers aren't covered. In my defence, that is my wife's (surprising) choice; I would have covered them.
Back to the sound of lids. I use a Decca cartridge; what do I care about extra colouration? :lol:
I think there is a lot of fashion involved in the choice. And I'm definitely not fashionable! Exposed drive units on speakers is another fashion I'm not fond of, especially as it's quite possible to make speakers which sound "right" with grills on. Discuss.
I fully agree. If speaker grilles are properly designed (i.e genuinely acoustically transparent), then many speakers can sound better with their grilles on.
The sound is often better integrated into the room, reducing the effect of music 'firing at your ears', which I know some folk like (but isn't always natural), and may be the reason for their preference for grilles off, plus with grilles on, the stereo image is often improved.
There's also the perception that a brighter sound is always better/more 'real', when often the opposite is true. For me, unless your speakers are pretty to look at, sans grilles (and many aren't), or sound markedly worse to your ears with them off, then leave 'em on! :)
Marco.
walpurgis
23-09-2015, 09:01
For goodness sake, where do you guys buy your physics. There is no micro phonic effect from a shut lid. The reflection of sound waves through the lid, vibrating th the lid which vibrates the air under it is just imperfect shielding, not added microphony. As others have noted, a shut lid is only really a benefit if that plinth it is attached to is isolated from the transducer by a chassis suspension - which works properly
Yes there is. The lid acts as a diaphragm, exciting the air contained which transfers this energy to the record and then the stylus, converting it into (unwanted) electrical energy. Hence the 'microphone' analogy is accurate.
awkwardbydesign
23-09-2015, 10:00
I fully agree. If speaker grilles are properly designed (i.e genuinely acoustically transparent), then many speakers can sound better with their grilles on.
Marco.
I also find that speakers sound better when they are invisible. Especially imaging, which is why I prefer to listen with low, or no, lighting. Failing that, cover them up!
PaulStewart
23-09-2015, 10:15
Think id say not up but off.
+1
I also find that speakers sound better when they are invisible. Especially imaging, which is why I prefer to listen with low, or no, lighting. Failing that, cover them up!
Indeed, and the same can sometimes be said about women... They should be seen and not heard! :D
Marco.
Thats as sexist as barefoot n pregnant....;)
It was also very tongue-in-cheek ;)
Marco.
No, that would be tongue in ear! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Depends on the cheek :booty::laugh:
Ha - depends on how used to kissing ass you are! :D
You can't beat a nice 'golden shower'... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
23-09-2015, 17:05
Yes there is. The lid acts as a diaphragm, exciting the air contained which transfers this energy to the record and then the stylus, converting it into (unwanted) electrical energy. Hence the 'microphone' analogy is accurate.
No there isn't. The energy is there anyway. The lid attenuates it. Yes acoustic energy striking the lid causes the lid to resonate which in turn causes the air inside the lid to resonate. But the radiated energy from the lid into the turntable cavity is less than the energy striking the lid, which would otherwise have struck the cartridge directly. It is an attenuation (some energy in the lid is passed to the plinth and some converted to heat. This is not a perpetual motion machine. It is subject to the normal rules of physics which state energy cannot be created or destroyed, but only changed from one form to another. Given some is converted to heat, some is reflected back into the room, some is transferred into the plinth, what carries on to influence the cartridge is LESS than was there without the lid. Attenuation.
It's also not microphony since the energy is not converted from one form to another. The lid is not a transducer. It is an attenuator - like a microphone shield.
Are you suggesting that a studio microphone shield is a microphone, and that instead of attenuating stray acoustic energy from reaching the microphone itself that it adds to the acoustic energy reaching the microphone???? That ain't the received wisdom in recording studios
The cartridge, as transducer, is the microphone. The lid is the acoustic shield. Whether you like it or not is subjective. What it does is measurable - and comparable with the mike shield I posted a picture of. And subject to the normal rules of physics. Like everything else in Hifi.
What about if you do it on a Tuesday - does that make a difference?
Marco.
Down for me on my Pioneer PL-71. It is damped unlike most lids...
awkwardbydesign
24-09-2015, 09:32
No there isn't. The energy is there anyway. The lid attenuates it. Yes acoustic energy striking the lid causes the lid to resonate which in turn causes the air inside the lid to resonate. But the radiated energy from the lid into the turntable cavity is less than the energy striking the lid, which would otherwise have struck the cartridge directly. It is an attenuation
I think one (perceived) problem is that the lid will resonate at a particular frequency that causes harm to the sound. And that may be transmitted to the cartridge. And although the lid MAY attenuate on average, at resonance it can increase the effect. As for the air under the lid, my lid only comes down halfway, so there is no pressurisation.
Anyway, I usually have the lid down.
The correct answer (as always) is it's whatever sounds best in "your" setup.
Then there will be the inevitable trade offs. For me it cant be "lid down" as my Bruil record weight prevents lid closure when playing and in my setup "lid open" sounds much better than "lid down" with no record weight.
My trade off is that I have a coal fire (and 2 hairy dogs) so dust is a real problem - it's just more convenient to keep the hinges on . I'm also concerned that taking lid on and off increases my chances of knocking the cartridge one day.
Steve
Oldpinkman
24-09-2015, 13:00
I think one (perceived) problem is that the lid will resonate at a particular frequency that causes harm to the sound. And that may be transmitted to the cartridge. And although the lid MAY attenuate on average, at resonance it can increase the effect. As for the air under the lid, my lid only comes down halfway, so there is no pressurisation.
Anyway, I usually have the lid down.
Good point. However, I happened to pop in on "my guru" yesterday - who is about to release a "kinetic cradle" for his Vector and Sapphire turntables - effectively turning them into suspended decks. The cradle - a plinth and LID surrounds the deck with the springs inside the new plinth AND LID to isolate it. So I caught him in a good mood and prepared to discuss the issue. (The spring solution he has come up with is classic AK - so, you guessed it, he is in the process of patenting it)
There will be a resonant frequency, but most resonant frequency energy will be fed into the plinth than radiated into the interior. I guess it shows that there is more to life than lids (or direct drive, or acrylic platters etc) and that a good turntable is an integrated solution. For definite the interior wants to vent rather than be compression sealed - but most lids I have ever encountered are not a hermetic seal.
TBH I am fairly chilled and listen with the lid either up or down - but it never fails to amaze me the pseudo-physics sometimes offered in support of a pet theory.
I think a lot of it is down to the particulars of the TT in question and some may suffer more than others in that respect. There are so many variables that have an impact (suspension or lack of, lid material and thickness, proximity to speakers, volume, etc, etc, etc) that to speak in terms of one hard and fast rule that applies to all is a more than a tad short-sighted.
Personally I am far from convinced of the physics of any alleged 'microphony' effect but I have come across plenty of TTs where the lid was definitely acoustically coupled and even the slightest tap could be heard through the speakers - if I had one that failed that test I would be tempted to bin it and start again :lol:
I would say that if your set up sounds better with the lid off then leave it off - if it has no discernible effect then leave it on (and benefit from less ambient dust settling on your precious vinyl).
PaulStewart
24-09-2015, 13:43
For goodness sake, where do you guys buy your physics. There is no micro phonic effect from a shut lid. The reflection of sound waves through the lid, vibrating th the lid which vibrates the air under it is just imperfect shielding, not added microphony. As others have noted, a shut lid is only really a benefit if that plinth it is attached to is isolated from the transducer by a chassis suspension - which works properly
Richard, I get my physics from education and research that got me the 2 degrees I have in the subject. Any flat surface, unless it is damped will vibrate. As such, to put it into simple language you may understand :) it will collect and radiate energy. If it is connected to a structure, such as a plinth the energy will go into that. This IS microphony it's not just about vibrating the air in the cavity. It's about adding spurious energy into the system.
PaulStewart
24-09-2015, 13:45
Good point. However, I happened to pop in on "my guru" yesterday - who is about to release a "kinetic cradle" for his Vector and Sapphire turntables - effectively turning them into suspended decks. The cradle - a plinth and LID surrounds the deck with the springs inside the new plinth AND LID to isolate it. So I caught him in a good mood and prepared to discuss the issue. (The spring solution he has come up with is classic AK - so, you guessed it, he is in the process of patenting it)
There will be a resonant frequency, but most resonant frequency energy will be fed into the plinth than radiated into the interior. I guess it shows that there is more to life than lids (or direct drive, or acrylic platters etc) and that a good turntable is an integrated solution. For definite the interior wants to vent rather than be compression sealed - but most lids I have ever encountered are not a hermetic seal.
TBH I am fairly chilled and listen with the lid either up or down - but it never fails to amaze me the pseudo-physics sometimes offered in support of a pet theory.
Is it possible for you to contribute to any thread without plugging Funk? Get a trade membership like the rest of us who trade here, for the sake of fairness
In fairness to Richard his reference to Funk was, in this instance, directly relevant to the thread topic.
walpurgis
24-09-2015, 15:07
but it never fails to amaze me the pseudo-physics sometimes offered in support of a pet theory.
Meaning? That sounds patronising to me.
+1 to that!
I dont think perspex is sonically transparent.
What about perspex pants?
Marco.
What about perspex pants?
Marco.
Wouldnt be transparent for long:lol:
I'm thinking in terms of dealing with the effects of resonance, generated by swinging appendages... Have you got any measurements?
Marco.
There should be no problem there mate. :( but could it handle a ripperroo?;)
when I should find a new TT a couple of years ago, I avoided the ones with no lid. Sure, it looks cool but a bitch to keep dust free. I tried to remove the lid on a tt years ago and got pretty tired of carefully dust off the tonearm and platter, so it went back on and I prefer it that way. My pro-ject xperience classic is close to one of the speakers. As you can see, the layout of our living room makes it difficult to place it any other way.
https://imageshack.com/i/eyelVV4Sj
With the lid up, I get resonace on some records at high volume, not all, but I dont wanna bother with finding out when theres resonace and when theres not, so at a listningsession at high volume, the lid is down every time. For background music there's no resonance and the lid is always up.
What about perspex pants?
Marco.
Iggy had a fetching pair of vinyl ones - he might pass em on :lol:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mds3kyOFlt1rggk7po1_1280.jpg
(Note - I didn't post the pic for good reason ....)
Iggy had a fetching pair of vinyl ones - he might pass em on :lol:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mds3kyOFlt1rggk7po1_1280.jpg
(Note - I didn't post the pic for good reason ....)
Thank goodness for that! (Has to be the nadir of taste.)
Interesting discussion! For those of you that remove dust cover, do you have a dedicated place to store it while your TT is in use? I'm thinking with 3 kids, a dog, and a cat in the house, things are safer for me with the cover always on and held in place by the hinges. Perhaps I may have a different perspective later in time.
I remove the lid entirely, stick it out of the way, have a session, then when I'm finished I put the lid back on. I don't really understand why anyone would do anything different unless the lid is hard to remove or replace for some bizarre design reason.
I remove the lid entirely, stick it out of the way, have a session, then when I'm finished I put the lid back on. I don't really understand why anyone would do anything different unless the lid is hard to remove or replace for some bizarre design reason.
x2 :) :D
clarkey555
29-09-2015, 08:14
Hi Phil I have tried lid up down and lid completely off and to my ears lid up sounds the best just seems more airy with more detail. With the lid down the sound becomes muddy hope this helps:)
awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 10:23
I remove the lid entirely, stick it out of the way, have a session, then when I'm finished I put the lid back on. I don't really understand why anyone would do anything different unless the lid is hard to remove or replace for some bizarre design reason.
I've seen a picture of your room. Can you find the lid again? :D
In my case there is nowhere to put it.
I've seen a picture of your room. Can you find the lid again? :D
In my case there is nowhere to put it.
How can there be nowhere to put a lid for a couple of hours? Do you live in a space capsule? On the international space station? I'm really struggling to understand that.
How can there be nowhere to put a lid for a couple of hours? Do you live in a space capsule? On the international space station? I'm really struggling to understand that.
Hah! I take the lid off, place it on the floor, where it's handy for storing played records in till I get around to putting them back in their sleeves a few days later.
Hah! I take the lid off, place it on the floor, where it's handy for storing played records in till I get around to putting them back in their sleeves a few days later.
This makes me want to weep :wah: ;)
I put mine on floor too although its sat on edge and only a part cover. When i had a full cover it was dealt with similarly.
walpurgis
29-09-2015, 11:38
Hah! I take the lid off, place it on the floor, where it's handy for storing played records in till I get around to putting them back in their sleeves a few days later.
I just leave my records on the nice soft carpet until I can bother putting them back in sleeves. They're generally OK unless the dog (or me) walks on them. Just a quick rub with a damp teacloth and they're good as new.
I just leave my records on the nice soft carpet until I can bother putting them back in sleeves. They're generally OK unless the dog (or me) walks on them. Just a quick rub with a damp teacloth and they're good as new.
Ah, a damp teacloth? You must be one of those OCD-type people.
Always off after I dropped mine on a concreat floor in the basement
Spectral Morn
29-09-2015, 13:47
This makes me want to weep :wah: ;)
Me too :eek: but each to their own.
Regards Neil
awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 13:56
How can there be nowhere to put a lid for a couple of hours? Do you live in a space capsule? On the international space station? I'm really struggling to understand that.
Well, obviously there is somewhere, but it would be the floor, where it could get trodden on or tripped over, or the sofa (sat on), or upstairs in the spare room. Not likely to happen, is it? Some of us allow other people into our rooms, too! :eek:
Not a lot of space, is there?
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000249_zpsf0bdf949.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000249_zpsf0bdf949.jpg.html)
Clive197
29-09-2015, 14:27
Well, obviously there is somewhere, but it would be the floor, where it could get trodden on or tripped over, or the sofa (sat on), or upstairs in the spare room. Not likely to happen, is it? Some of us allow other people into our rooms, too! :eek:
Not a lot of space, is there?
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000249_zpsf0bdf949.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000249_zpsf0bdf949.jpg.html)
Top of the RHF speaker looks good place to me.:)
Room the size of a football field - no space my arse ;) maybe if the speakers wern't so gargantuan.....
Late to this party, but if you have a solid plinth design, which includes almost all direct drives ever made, as well as Regas and so on, then take the bloody lid off when playing records, as all it's going to do, up or down, is transmit soundwaves as added vibration into the plinth for the tonearm and record to pick up! Suspended designs differ in solidity, so with an LP12, the lid can be lowered. With a lighter suspended deck such as a Thorens 160, I'd still remove the cover, although the hinges on these are frail and used replacements cost a small fortune.
awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 15:17
Late to this party, but if you have a solid plinth design, which includes almost all direct drives ever made, as well as Regas and so on, then take the bloody lid off when playing records, as all it's going to do, up or down, is transmit soundwaves as added vibration into the plinth for the tonearm and record to pick up! Suspended designs differ in solidity, so with an LP12, the lid can be lowered. With a lighter suspended deck such as a Thorens 160, I'd still remove the cover, although the hinges on these are frail and used replacements cost a small fortune.
Try £250! http://www.peakhifi.co.uk/cgi-bin/ecom.cgi?Command=ShowProduct&db_pid=700
awkwardbydesign
29-09-2015, 15:18
Room the size of a football field - no space my arse ;) maybe if the speakers wern't so gargantuan.....
If I didn't fill the space, she would!
Quite right, don't let her win! :D
Marco.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.