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Rob Sinden
29-09-2009, 15:51
Hi

Today I was invited to join The Art of Sound, probably because my views about audio reproduction are a bit controversial and so are likely to provoke some heated debate. So for what it’s worth here’s my 2p on the subject and a little background about how I arrived at this conclusion.

Please don’t be insulted if you don’t like my views – it’s just hifi.

My name is Rob Sinden and I run a company called Gecko that imports hifi and home cinema equipment.

I got the hifi bug when I was a teenager, religiously read hifi magazines and buying the best hifi I could afford. I was happy with my system but when I started my own hifi shop in 1991 I soon became disillusioned with the quality and consistency of hifi available. What I quickly learned was that buying the best audio equipment would not result in a system that accurately reproduces music or film.

The problem was that the bigger speakers that I think are essential for lifelike bass sound very different from room to room because of the impact of the rooms’ acoustics.

I had 3 very different sized demonstration rooms but my favourite speakers didn’t sound good in any of them. Fortunately most of them did sound great in my flat but this wasn’t much help for my customers who wanted to reproduce this same quality of sound in their homes.

As a result of me learning about how inconsistent hifi is I got out of the hifi business and started up the first business in the UK specialising in home cinema.

Although there is a great deal of snobbery about home cinema, there is a lot more money in this industry and as a result it has attracted many of the finest audio engineers available. I have had training from several independent organisations such as THX, PMI and HAA all of which approach the reproduction of sound in a similar way. This addresses room layout, room treatment, use of separate satellite speakers and subwoofers, calibration and room correction.

These methods are based on hard, logical science and are the methods that independent experts recommend for producing optimal performance.

If you think for a moment how carefully rooms are designed and treated in the world of professional audio, such as in recording studios, cinemas and classical concert venues you can see how much care is placed on room acoustics.
In the world of hifi however the effect of the room is either ignored or paid little attention which is one of the main reasons why good hifi’s give such poor results.

I have recently started selling hifi as well as home cinema systems as I have found a company whose products can be corrected to match the acoustic space that they are used in.

For me, these are the only hifi and home cinema systems that I have ever heard that sound truly life like. They are expensive but they work.

To put these claims to the test I have built what I believe are the UK’s finest demonstration rooms for people to audition these systems. If you’d like to come for a listen, drop me a line at rob@geckohomecinema.com or read more at www.geckohomecinema.com

DaveK
29-09-2009, 16:12
Hi

Today I was invited to join The Art of Sound, probably because my views about audio reproduction are a bit controversial and so are likely to provoke some heated debate. So for what it’s worth here’s my 2p on the subject and a little background about how I arrived at this conclusion.

Please don’t be insulted if you don’t like my views – it’s just hifi.

I have recently started selling hifi as well as home cinema systems as I have found a company whose products can be corrected to match the acoustic space that they are used in.

For me, these are the only hifi and home cinema systems that I have ever heard that sound truly life like. They are expensive but they work.

To put these claims to the test I have built what I believe are the UK’s finest demonstration rooms for people to audition these systems. If you’d like to come for a listen, drop me a line at rob@geckohomecinema.com or read more at www.geckohomecinema.com

Hi Rob,
Hopefully you'll extend the same courtesy to others who reply and not be insulted if you don't like our views. I read the first few paragraphs of your post with a rapidly increasing sense of "When is the sales pitch coming, what's he selling", and then it appeared.
There may be much in what you say about AV and hi-fi and the snobbery in there, but what is it about your (imported ?) system that makes it so good - I will read your links and assess what there is in there that answers these questions.
And yes, I have been accused of being a bit cynical from time to time ;) .
Cheers,

Spectral Morn
29-09-2009, 16:25
Hi Rob

Hope you are keeping well.

Dave Robs one of the good guys, I used to have dealings with him when he represented M&K and I was in the trade before my redundancy.

I agree with some of what he says but not all of it. However rooms are the lottery of audio and very little has been done on this side of the Atlantic to offer solutions to what we all have to live with. Acoustic solutions be they passive or electronic are not the whole story and while the pro/home-cinema side of the industry can teach the 2 channel audio side a lot so can the 2 channel side of things. Its a question of balance and very few Home Cinema systems are totally at home with 2 channel music...they compromise it to much. This is mainly because of their complexity and lack of dedicated power supplies (in regard to audio needs), and digital processing pollution. The very best home cinema gear only just bests what mid price dedicated audio can do. Let there be no mistake here, I am a Home Cinema user too, though I don't talk about it much nor have I posted photos etc of it, but the one thing I learnt very quickly about it is that it just does not do music well so I keep the two apart. But if a company can blend the kind of acoustic modeling some H C products can (and I know Tact and Lygndorf have), and allow the quality of 2 channel to shine i.e serve the music and not throttle it then I would be up for that.


Regards D S D L

Alex Nikitin
29-09-2009, 16:26
Why HiFi Doesn't Work

My first comment is simple: if it does not work for you, it may work for other people ;) . My approach to hi-fi is exactly like yours - based on my own understanding of what I like in the sound reproduction. However it takes me in the opposite direction. I can happily tolerate many imperfections (room acoustics and lack of low bass included) if the system delivers music in a natural way, preserving the low-level ambience. For me almost all kinds of digital processing is a deadly blow to the sound quality - and without such processing it is impossible to do what you do. People are different and so is their understanding of what makes good sound :) .

Cheers

Alex

HighFidelityGuy
29-09-2009, 16:27
Hi Rob, welcome to AOS. :)

You raise some very interesting and important points.

I'm currently investigating room treatment and EQ to cure some issues I have after I gained some promising improvements from some cheap and simple testing. Based on this recent experience, I agree that room acoustics play an incredibly important role in home Hi-Fi and cinema setup and that this is something that is usually overlooked by most consumers and those so called experts in the industry. I know I've never had room acoustics mentioned to me during a demonstration at a dealers shop and I've rarely seen it mentioned in magazines. I think this is something which is changing slowly over time, especially in the home cinema market as more and more products are now being released to combat the effects of room acoustics. However, the Hi-Fi industry still seem to be fairly set in their ways and opinions. I think a lot of this stemmed from bad experiences with early EQ units that often did more harm than good. Thankfully technology has moved on a great deal since then. Unfortunately many people still see room correction as being non-purest and somehow negative.

The Hi-Fi industry seems to be built around the idea that spending more money will always provide you with better results and if you're system isn't sounding the way you want it to it's because you need to swap something for a different make or model, usually more expensive than the one you have. While this will be the way to cure some problems, it's certainly not always the case. The possibility of tuning a system and room to work together properly is rarely considered.

Personally I don't think your opinion is very controversial at all and I'm sure you'll find others here that share your opinion. However, I can imagine that not all members will agree that you're products are the best but that's to be expected. Hi-Fi is a very subjective area after all. I'm sure your knowledge on the subject will be a welcome addition to the forum though. :)

Dave Cawley
29-09-2009, 16:39
The Hi Fi industry is driven by the customer, it's that simple!

Dave

Clive
29-09-2009, 16:42
Hi Rob and welcome!

I'm definitely in favour of treating rooms. I'm lazy and haven't performed physical treatment of my room (also because it's aesthetically intrusive), I instead use DSP on just the bass. My room's particularly bad for room modes as it's essentially square with a bay at one end.

Room before DSP
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/DF.jpg

Room with DSP
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/DS.jpg

DaveK
29-09-2009, 16:48
Hi Clive,
What is the PC programme that you used to produce the traces that you posted, if indeed it is a PC programme. I'm 'into' PCs and hi-fi in an interested amateur way so I'd like to know if it's something I could 'play with'.
Cheers,

Rob Sinden
29-09-2009, 16:51
Thanks for the welcome and letting me share my views.

I'm sure I'll be posting a lot of stuff in the future to explain what is different about the systems we sell, but of course the real issue is how does it sound?

I have made the claims that the Lyngdorf and Steinway Lyngdorf systems that I sell are the only systems I have ever heard that truely sound like live music. Would anyone like to come for a listen and report back on thier findings? I'm in Newbury, Berkshire and am happy to meet with people anytime including evenings and weekend....

hifi_dave
29-09-2009, 17:02
Rob, just cut to the chase and tell them how much it costs. Might save a lot of posts.

Rob Sinden
29-09-2009, 17:09
Hi Dave

Thanks for asking, it's from £2800 to £200,000 for the stereos. From £8k - £500k for surround systems.

I think what is more interesting is what is different about these systems compared to any alternatives which briefly is:
- they are digital throughout the electronics so no noise or colouration is added
- they are measured and corrected with RoomPerfect arguable the best room correction system available.

Dave Cawley
29-09-2009, 17:11
As this was started by a fellow dealer, I think it might be moved to the trade area. Then there would be nothing to stop Rob advertising as much as he wants?

Dave

Clive
29-09-2009, 17:11
Hi Clive,
What is the PC programme that you used to produce the traces that you posted, if indeed it is a PC programme. I'm 'into' PCs and hi-fi in an interested amateur way so I'd like to know if it's something I could 'play with'.
Cheers,
Hi Dave,

I use the XTZ Room Analyzer, this is a calibrated mic with soundcard in the mic housing, this connects via USB to your computer. There are various free programs available though they don't seem as easy to use. The XTZ system has an RTA that measures up to 20K but the main part of the app is for bass only as it's used for subwoofer setup.

http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allmant=true&produkt=41&eng=true

Rob Sinden
29-09-2009, 17:11
Clive - thanks for the graphs.

Looks like a 15db variation is bass performance before EQ. This is pretty typical. I wonder how many people realise how much their room is distorting the sound of their systems?

What system did you use to measure your systems response?

Rob Sinden
29-09-2009, 17:14
What do you EQ with?

Clive
29-09-2009, 17:19
What do you EQ with?
XTZ Sub Amp 1 DSP (two of them).

My system uses DSP in the bass and pure SET above that, some would say it's a mix of technologies but it's one that works for me. And yes, many rooms are at least as bad as mine, some folks spend huge amounts box swapping when it's the room that needs fixing.

My room and system is here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3970

Spectral Morn
29-09-2009, 17:20
Rob

On AOS we encourage our trade members to initiate and take part in discussions, but conversation which strays into over promotion of their products is not what AOS is about. So far this thread is IMHO is straying a little to close to the edge of promotion (its a fine line and I don't want to stifle interesting debate that we can all learn from). However if you could talk about the technical side of things and a little less about the brand you represent then I am happy to let this thread stay here and not move it to the trade section where out and out promotion is okay.



Regards D S D L

anthonyTD
29-09-2009, 17:25
hi rob,
welcome to AOS, i witnessed first hand what room correction equipment can do in terms of matching a system to a paticular room and its acoustics, this was at the heathrow show in 2004 where three of my power amplifiers were powering a system put together by derek wilson of [then] overkill audio, the sound the whole system produced in that room was probably one of the best i had ever heard at a hi fi show, six moons also gave the room best of show so i am very much a convert in terms of matching a system to a given room for best posible results, although my prefrence is to acheive it with out all the added electronics.:)
regards,anthony,TD...

Rob Sinden
29-09-2009, 17:31
Cool. I'll try and stick to the ideas behind this different approach.

The aim is to maintain the audio signal in the digital domain throughout the electronics. This way far less noise or colouration is added to the signal. I had never been that bothered by the background noise that systems created, but once you have lived with a systems that adds nothing additional to the signal you quickly become aware of how much audio systems add to the sound on your recordings. Just as digital has replaced analogue reproduction in many other areas, I think the same is inevitable in the audio domain.

The second major principal is accepting that even if you had a perfect hifi, it would sound very different from room to room. As such any hifi must be measured and corrected to match it's acoustic environment if it is ever to be accurate. These are two principals that I think make perfect sense and create much more life like sound which is what I look for in an audio system.

Spectral Morn
29-09-2009, 17:40
Cool. I'll try and stick to the ideas behind this different approach.

The aim is to maintain the audio signal in the digital domain throughout the electronics. This way far less noise or colouration is added to the signal. I had never been that bothered by the background noise that systems created, but once you have lived with a systems that adds nothing additional to the signal you quickly become aware of how much audio systems add to the sound on your recordings. Just as digital has replaced analogue reproduction in many other areas, I think the same is inevitable in the audio domain.

The second major principal is accepting that even if you had a perfect hifi, it would sound very different from room to room. As such any hifi must be measured and corrected to match it's acoustic environment if it is ever to be accurate. These are two principals that I think make perfect sense and create much more life like sound which is what I look for in an audio system.

Thank you.


Regards D S D L

Steve Toy
29-09-2009, 17:44
I think room interaction is important but setup in terms of isolation (including cable dressing), supports, equipment placement (electronics as well as speakers!) and mains is equally important.

Many sonic abherrations like boomy bass/quacky mids are often blamed on the room when in fact the issue is frequently one of either microphony and/or polluted mains.

A good system, well set up should still communicate the musical message even in a (fairly) challenging room.

Rob Sinden
29-09-2009, 17:52
Clive - love those speakers -like Jamo 909's which sound wonderful but no one sells.

You cant mess with moving air - I cant stand the trend for wimpy speakers with no bass! Kahonis!

Rob Sinden
29-09-2009, 17:54
I have to say that is you saw how badly I neglect mains, cables and equipment housing on my dem systems your hair would probably fall out. I only use digital sources and I think that makes life a lot easier.

Clive
29-09-2009, 17:55
I think the problems occur when something like a 10db / 15db peak or trough coincide with particular note. Then some albums can sound absolutely awesome and others complete pants. IMHO this is especially true in the bass region.

Clapton Unplugged is one example, his foot tapping on the floor used be massive in my room, totally unrealistic. Now with DSP it sounds right and I can listen to it. An added 15db in the bass at say 70Hz (very typical) will overpower the music and cloud a lot of information right across the spectrum.

Steve Toy
29-09-2009, 19:43
I only use digital sources and I think that makes life a lot easier.

CD transports are just as susceptible to microphony as turntables. In fact all electronic components, even the ones without moving parts are affected by vibration both airborne and through what they are connected to, i.e. interconnects, cables and power leads.

NRG
29-09-2009, 20:14
Rob (or Clive) I for one would find it interesting to learn how room correction is put into practice IE: Where do the electronics fit into the system...does it work with valve amps / vinyl front end etc...do you measure the room or are there preset responses etc....

DSJR
29-09-2009, 20:41
As I'm well out of the industry now and in any case will never again have this kind of disposeable income, I ought to add a suspicion regarding these sorts of DSP setups.

Am I right in saying that the signal is subtly eq'd to get a better response? Nowt at all wrong in that, but what about the time-delayed reflections? A boomy bass will still be boomy, just not quite as obvious.

Those questions above show my utter naivety in this subject. I think that for many listeners, getting the room furnished sensibly and the speakers carefully integrated can cure most of the problems (and Marco still has to sell me on Mana for equipment and speaker support).

Clive
29-09-2009, 21:13
Rob (or Clive) I for one would find it interesting to learn how room correction is put into practice IE: Where do the electronics fit into the system...does it work with valve amps / vinyl front end etc...do you measure the room or are there preset responses etc....
Hi Neal,

In my case I have bass amps connected at line-level, the DSP happens in the front-end of the bass amps. I measure the room with the calibrated mic, the software creates the inverse of the peaks and troughs and I then upload the settings to the DSP unit in the bass amps. Some manual tweaking is then required to optimise the results.

I think in Rob's case it all happens in the main system amps and is applied to the whole frequency range.

Dave, some room correction can be done with bass traps etc too. All I can say is that my DSP corrected room isn't perfect but it's streets ahead of the room mode infested boom box that it used to be! It's not expensive either, I used to use a DEQ2496 and the XTZ DSP amps are not expensive at 550€ each.

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 08:00
We use different types of room correction units depending on whether it's a stereo or surround system and what sort of value the whole system is. EQ definitely isn't a cure all but I've yet to come across a system that it can't improve. In some cases the improvement is very subtle but often the beneftis are huge and are something that no other practical approach could fix.
Generally the systems we use are not intended to make the systems response fit a target curve. The problem with this approach is that it makes all systems sound very similar. The aim is to measure the negative impact that the room is having on the system and reduce these errors. To do this requires many measurements and some clever maths to figure out what correction can be applied.
A system like the Audyssey can make up to 10,000 adjustment to just the bass response and so the resolution it offers if way beyond what normal parametric EQ's offer.
Most people I know in the hifi world will tell you EQ creates lots of problems but have no personal experience of using anything. I have used several different types of EQ in the past and did find they added noise to the system. The kit I have now doesnt have that problem.
As ever the proof of the pudding is in the listening.
All I can say is that I have never had a hifi system or home cinema system that I would happily to show to a musician or film maker before I was using systems with EQ in.

anthonyTD
30-09-2009, 09:56
We use different types of room correction units depending on whether it's a stereo or surround system and what sort of value the whole system is. EQ definitely isn't a cure all but I've yet to come across a system that it can't improve. In some cases the improvement is very subtle but often the beneftis are huge and are something that no other practical approach could fix.
Generally the systems we use are not intended to make the systems response fit a target curve. The problem with this approach is that it makes all systems sound very similar. The aim is to measure the negative impact that the room is having on the system and reduce these errors. To do this requires many measurements and some clever maths to figure out what correction can be applied.
A system like the Audyssey can make up to 10,000 adjustment to just the bass response and so the resolution it offers if way beyond what normal parametric EQ's offer.
Most people I know in the hifi world will tell you EQ creates lots of problems but have no personal experience of using anything. I have used several different types of EQ in the past and did find they added noise to the system. The kit I have now doesnt have that problem.
As ever the proof of the pudding is in the listening.

All I can say is that I have never had a hifi system or home cinema system that I would happily to show to a musician or film maker before I was using systems with EQ in.
:confused:

REM
30-09-2009, 10:39
The following might be of interest, it is copied from the 'guidebook' that came with my speakers

......the attack, more than any other aspect of a waveform, gives the listener the clues to process source, direction, amplitude, character, intelligence, and so on. Close in importance are the dynamics within that immediately follow the attack. An example of the attack phase is when a piano key is stuck: you hear or sense the mechanical noises including that of the impinging hammer; then the initial string motion, which has many extra components that are quickly damped away and no longer present in the sustain; and initial coupling of piano body and sound board. The first several milliseconds are very dynamic and have many features. To get the attack correct is solely a function of the playback system and has very little to do with the room. Aside from placement, if you have changed your system to combat your room, attack and dynamics can never be correct. Most people can only pinpoint tonal problems with steady-state or semi steady-state music or signal, this is a big problem because room influence on steady-state sounds are huge, the single largest influence if included as a component of your playback system. So, hi-fi guys usually tweak things to get the steady-state and decay tonally correct which inadvertently kills the life in the attack. This is the reason why cables as tone control, digital room correction, parametric equalisers and the like can never "fix" fundamental problems -- unless the time axis is also programmed and correlated to harmonic structure and then set to react to any dynamic anomalies within the signal, overlaid with the room the original recording was made in and compared...yeah we're just a few years from having all that figured out.

Anyone care to comment?

Regards

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 10:48
Saying that the attack is solely a function of the playback system is ok, but to me the playback system is a combination of the room, the equipment used and its location in the room.

Steve Toy
30-09-2009, 10:54
Absolutely spot on! No amount of room correction is going to give you more music and tell you the full story of a piano note being struck. Attack and dynamics are essential and to get these right you have to address the microphony issues that cause time smear within the system itself.

Room correction will undoubtedly improve the sonics and some of the time smear issues but not all of them. Sonics and musical information retrieval are not the same. Tonally right is not the same as insightful although both are desirable.

I am sure we can learn from each other on these two issues that stand in the way of musical high fidelity.

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 11:04
One interesting idea that Lyngdorf recommend is the use of Boundary Woofers. The idea behind these is that the location that you place you speakers in creates fundamental problems.

Say for example you have a floorstanding speaker that you have placed 20" off the rear wall to tune their bass response etc. The problem is that when they place a bass note you will hear the direct sound from the speaker followed by a delayed sound that leaves the rear of the speaker, hits the wall behind it and than travels towards you.

As a result every THUMP on a drum is heard as THUMP, thump.

By placing a pair of wide bandwdith woofers against the front wall the direct and reflected sound from the speaker all arrives at the listening position as the same time. These Boundary Woofer play from 20Hz - 300Hz and must be used with Lyngdorfs room correction however the timing and dynamics of systems using these woofers is remarkable.

It also means you can look at some very different main speakers....

The Grand Wazoo
30-09-2009, 11:38
One interesting idea that Lyngdorf recommend is the use of Boundary Woofers. The idea behind these is that the location that you place you speakers in creates fundamental problems.

Say for example you have a floorstanding speaker that you have placed 20" off the rear wall to tune their bass response etc. The problem is that when they place a bass note you will hear the direct sound from the speaker followed by a delayed sound that leaves the rear of the speaker, hits the wall behind it and than travels towards you.

As a result every THUMP on a drum is heard as THUMP, thump.


Sorry if I appear to be trying to piss in your cornflakes (I'm absolutely not), but this is too simplistic, surely?

The real drumkit behaves in exactly the same way. As long as it is in a room there will be a direct & a reflected sound - THUMP, thump (and maybe even thump, thump for good measure!)

Clive
30-09-2009, 11:44
Sorry if I appear to be trying to piss in your cornflakes (I'm absolutely not), but this is too simplistic, surely?

The real drumkit behaves in exactly the same way. As long as it is in a room there will direct & reflected sound - THUMP, thump (and maybe even thump, thump for good measure!)
I suppose that depends whether there is an recorded acoustic around the drumkit in which case you get recorded "small thumps" and room generated "small thumps".

The Grand Wazoo
30-09-2009, 11:50
I suppose that depends whether there is an recorded acoustic around the drumkit in which case you get recorded "small thumps" and room generated "small thumps".

Precisely what I'm driving at.......your recorded small thumps are then exacerbated by consequential room generated small thumps!

As I said - it's far more complicated....

Clive
30-09-2009, 11:57
Precisely what I'm driving at.......your recorded small thumps are then exacerbated by consequential room generated small thumps!

As I said - it's far more complicated....
Yes,very complicated, possibly more so in a system like mine as I use open baffles so I have a first arrival from the front of the speaker and then a strong second arrival from the rear of the speaker reflected off the wall. This creates ambiance that sounds wonderful but of course it is fake but it works.

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 12:01
I think the point is that every different room will create it's own secondary bass waves, each of which will be overlaid on the sound of the recording.

By trying to ensure the listening room adds as little to the mix as possible, you'll hear more of the original recording and less of the room/systems influence.

The Grand Wazoo
30-09-2009, 12:04
Yes,very complicated, possibly more so in a system like mine as I use open baffles so I have a first arrival from the front of the speaker and then a strong second arrival from the rear of the speaker reflected off the wall. This creates ambiance that sounds wonderful but of course it is fake but it works.

Hahaha - you want complicated?
Here's complicated:

Add the above to this.
Open baffles + sound reflected off rear walls = drivers mounted in open baffle not being able to properly work on the signal they're being fed because they're being tickled from behind by the sound they thought they'd seen the last of a few milliseconds ago!!

......and I've nothing against OB's - I'm using some now & have been on & off for about 18 yrs.

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 12:12
I use them too. http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com/Model_D-45.aspx

A film producer who recently sat in front of the Royal Philiharmonic Orcheastra to listen to his latest movies score heard them this morning and said "they sound better than the orchestra"

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 12:13
Has anyone else heard the Jamo 909's and fell in love with them?

Clive
30-09-2009, 12:23
Hahaha - you want complicated?
Here's complicated:

Add the above to this.
Open baffles + sound reflected off rear walls = drivers mounted in open baffle not being able to properly work on the signal they're being fed because they're being tickled from behind by the sound they thought they'd seen the last of a few milliseconds ago!!

......and I've nothing against OB's - I'm using some now & have been on & off for about 18 yrs.
Surely that problem is FAR more intense with a box speaker. Shorter time delay but WAY bigger amplitude.

Steve Toy
30-09-2009, 12:25
Also that bass overhang is exacerbated by microphony - the vibrations are picked up by the walls and floor (as well as the air) and fed back into the sensitive electronics via the cabling (basically anything connected to your kit) and whatever the kit is sitting on.

This feedback is purely mechanical, even that transmitted through the cable structure, but once it enters the circuitry of your kit it then corrupts the signal path.

By isolating vibration via the walls and floor from your electronics as well as providing a rapid route to ground for airborne vibration, the need for in-room treatment for bass reflections and resulting time delay is greatly reduced. Time delay caused by microphony issues is then furtheramplified by speaker-room interaction.

Surely it is better to begin by tackling the problem at source before papering over the cracks at the back end of the system.

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 12:38
Steve - this vibrations thing is clealry something you know a lot about.

Would you be able to come and see my systems to see if you think they can be improved by addressing these issues?

twelvebears
30-09-2009, 12:39
Hi Rob and welcome.

Actually, for what it's worth, I very much agree with much that you've said regarding the room/speaker impact on system performance.

Many moons ago, I worked part-time for a well known, if not respected HiFi retail chain (Sevenoaks HiFi if you're wondering). As it happened, this particular branch was staffed entirely by people who really liked and cared about music and sound quality in their private lives (gasp!), and so this very much influenced how we went about building systems and recommending equipment.

The practical upshot was that an initial audition happened at the shop which would usually do for components up-stream of the speakers, but the speaker selection would be based on a home-trial decision.

I have always believed that the room/speaker interaction (particularly in the bass) meant they were almost combined 'component' and that it was entirely possible that a well loved speaker would simply not work in another room, although some are far more fussy than others. Generally I found that large speakers were more of a problem than small ones (more bass, more likely to get room nodes going), and that front-ported designs were more flexible than sealed boxes, with rear-ported being the biggest pain. That said, there are always exceptions.

Unfortunately, few of us are in a position to have rooms big enough for there to be losts of scope for getting things right by changing positioning, and room treatments can be expensive/impractical/domestically unacceptible.

Steve Toy
30-09-2009, 12:40
Yes.

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 12:59
I think anyone who has been in the business for a while realises that the room/speaker interface is one of the biggest obstacles to good audio - it's just not popoular amongst flat earthers.

I should say that what I sell / ftalk about here is aimed at people with lots of money or are really looking for a system that can faithfully reproduce live music. I know this is elitist but it's the part of the market that interests me and that my buisness is involved in.

What do you do these days?

The Grand Wazoo
30-09-2009, 13:10
Surely that problem is FAR more intense with a box speaker. Shorter time delay but WAY bigger amplitude.

Well, except that with a box, the reflected sound will affect the box & maybe the front of your drivers (to an extent), but with an OB, it's acting on the back of your drivers while they're trying to carry out their function.

I think maybe we should all just give up!!

Clive
30-09-2009, 13:16
Well, except that with a box, the reflected sound will affect the box & maybe the front of your drivers (to an extent), but with an OB, it's acting on the back of your drivers while they're trying to carry out their function.

I think maybe we should all just give up!!
What I was getting at is that with a box speaker the sound reflects off the rear of the box (internally) and then hits the back of the drivers, effectively you have the rear wall very close to the drivers so the time delay is short but the energy is not diffused the way it is with OBs.

As you say complex and for me it's a moot point because it doesn't cause me to loose any sleep.

Mr. C
30-09-2009, 13:22
Has anyone else heard the Jamo 909's and fell in love with them?

No

Clive
30-09-2009, 13:32
Has anyone else heard the Jamo 909's and fell in love with them?
I've heard them at a show, which may not be very representative. I did like them but their 89db efficiency at 4 ohms rules out the amplification I prefer but they do at least some of what my 100db efficiency Bastanis do.

twelvebears
30-09-2009, 14:09
Surely that problem is FAR more intense with a box speaker. Shorter time delay but WAY bigger amplitude.

True to a degree, but my recent experiences with (admittedly quite extreme) cabinet and internal damping materials have shown me that it's possible to control cabinet reflections and stored/transmitted energy to the point that it's almost neglible (to my ears at least), plus this applies to the speaker regardless of it's room position/interaction.

The problem is that unlike the impact of the cabinet and internal standing waves, what happens with the room is a LOT harder to deal with.

twelvebears
30-09-2009, 14:12
What do you do these days?

Alas nothing exciting. I work for a bank as a project manager, the HiFi is just for entertainment now...

Clive
30-09-2009, 14:17
True to a degree, but my recent experiences with (admittedly quite extreme) cabinet and internal damping materials have shown me that it's possible to control cabinet reflections and stored/transmitted energy to the point that it's almost neglible (to my ears at least), plus this applies to the speaker regardless of it's room position/interaction.

The problem is that unlike the impact of the cabinet and internal standing waves, what happens with the room is a LOT harder to deal with.
As ever with speakers it's about compromise, quite a number of box speakers sound better with some if not all their damping removed. Controlling reflections is all very well but overdo it and you lose all the life from the sound. The same applies to OB's the reflectivity of the rear wall makes a massive difference to the sound. If there's a harshness problem elsewhere I've found that damping the rear wall can help but far better is to fix the harshness at source rather that hobble the speakers. This speaker lark though is so room dependent that rules don't mean much.

Marco
30-09-2009, 14:19
Alas nothing exciting. I work for a bank as a project manager, the HiFi is just for entertainment now...


Shhhh, Steve... Don't tell him about the commission you earned after securing that multi-million pound off-shore deal the other day, or he'll be 'avin it off ya for a home cinema :eyebrows:

As you can see, Rob, we all like a joke here! ;)

Marco.

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 15:10
Those Bastanis look very cool.
Are they sold as complete speakers?
What sort of money are they?
Do you import they directly?

Ammonite Audio
30-09-2009, 15:16
Steve - this vibrations thing is clealry something you know a lot about.

Would you be able to come and see my systems to see if you think they can be improved by addressing these issues?

And he's right on the mark, too. You could also speak to Dave at Blade Audio for some advice, as he imports Stillpoints and knows a thing or two about managing vibration and unwanted energy (also in the context of a Lyngdorf system). As you can see from my kit list below, I am fully convinced that devices like Stillpoints do have a profound and beneficial effect on reproduction.


Also that bass overhang is exacerbated by microphony - the vibrations are picked up by the walls and floor (as well as the air) and fed back into the sensitive electronics via the cabling (basically anything connected to your kit) and whatever the kit is sitting on.

This feedback is purely mechanical, even that transmitted through the cable structure, but once it enters the circuitry of your kit it then corrupts the signal path.

By isolating vibration via the walls and floor from your electronics as well as providing a rapid route to ground for airborne vibration, the need for in-room treatment for bass reflections and resulting time delay is greatly reduced. Time delay caused by microphony issues is then furtheramplified by speaker-room interaction.

Surely it is better to begin by tackling the problem at source before papering over the cracks at the back end of the system.

Also spot on!

Clive
30-09-2009, 15:23
I would however add that a 15db bass "mountain" (standing wave) caused by room dimensions also needs sorting! 15db.....not trivial and this will be very obvious. Not all rooms suffer to this extent but when they do controlling microphony isn't going to be enough.

The same goes for similarly deep troughs but they are harder to fix.

John
30-09-2009, 15:40
I think anyone who has been in the business for a while realises that the room/speaker interface is one of the biggest obstacles to good audio - it's just not popoular amongst flat earthers.

I never been in the buisness but I do agree that the environment will effect the sound

I should say that what I sell / ftalk about here is aimed at people with lots of money or are really looking for a system that can faithfully reproduce live music. I know this is elitist but it's the part of the market that interests me and that my buisness is involved in.

I think you totally wrong on this point and will not take a elitist approach to good sound. I think the DIY market provides a way to address some of the issues you mentioned and anybody can address room issues;what is needed is a better understanding of how to address these issues and do no not see how an elitist view point will help. I however have no issues with a buiness being set up for a more elitist client group



:)

Steve Toy
30-09-2009, 16:03
I would however add that a 15db bass "mountain" (standing wave) caused by room dimensions also needs sorting! 15db.....not trivial and this will be very obvious. Not all rooms suffer to this extent but when they do controlling microphony isn't going to be enough.

The same goes for similarly deep troughs but they are harder to fix.


Agreed. Fixing microphony isn't the be-all-and-end-all of curing time delay issues. It is another cause that needs to be eliminated first before you can truly identify the problem as being solely a standing wave issue.

Standing wave issues as outlined above definitely do need to be addressed in-room.

Rob Sinden
30-09-2009, 16:45
I typically deal in high end systems. I'm not elitist, but what I sell is expensive. The reason for pointing this out is because a lot of the solutions I recommend are expensive but are nonetheless valid and I think of interest to any audio enthusiast.

I can't afford a fancy car but I still like to read about them.

Dave Cawley
30-09-2009, 17:07
It's a shame you did not have a system on demo last weekend. It should have annihilated all others due to its room correction.

Dave

twelvebears
30-09-2009, 17:13
As ever with speakers it's about compromise, quite a number of box speakers sound better with some if not all their damping removed. Controlling reflections is all very well but overdo it and you lose all the life from the sound. The same applies to OB's the reflectivity of the rear wall makes a massive difference to the sound. If there's a harshness problem elsewhere I've found that damping the rear wall can help but far better is to fix the harshness at source rather that hobble the speakers. This speaker lark though is so room dependent that rules don't mean much.

I actually think this is an interesting point but one which I've never really understood. With my engineer's hat on, I can't understand why this should be true (though I accept that some designs sound better with less damping than more), as apart from bass-loading the main driver (which is about effective volume and in the case of reflex enclosures, air movement), surely the cabinet's job should to be to contribute as little as possible to sound radiating from the speaker? So it follows that ANYTHING with gets radiated from the cabinet walls OR bounced around inside and back out through the cones has got to muddy the sound, yes?

Sorry, gone off-topic there on a speaker-physics tangent. :mental:

Anyway, speakers and rooms. Totally bloody nightmare. We should all just use headphones and be done with it.... :doh:

John
30-09-2009, 17:16
I too like to read about fancy gear and no issues with you selling high end gear just pointing out that these issues are important to everybody who wants good sound
Anyway glad we cleared the mis-understanding:)

Clive
30-09-2009, 18:35
So it follows that ANYTHING with gets radiated from the cabinet walls OR bounced around inside and back out through the cones has got to muddy the sound, yes?
You'd have thought so wouldn't you....my room is quite live, no curtains and only half the floor has carpet but it sounds better this way. More damping kills the sound. You need a certain amount of reflective surfaces to keep the sound juiced up.

John
30-09-2009, 18:53
Sometimes reflection works for you and sometimes against you

twelvebears
30-09-2009, 19:24
Sometimes reflection works for you and sometimes against you

Yeah I think that whenever I look in the mirror......

John
30-09-2009, 20:06
Yeah I think that whenever I look in the mirror......

:lol:

REM
01-10-2009, 07:54
Anyway, speakers and rooms. Totally bloody nightmare. We should all just use headphones and be done with it.... :doh:

Quite so, wonder what Rob's DSP stuff sounds like then or do they have progammes to replicate different studios, mixing boards, monitors etc etc???:scratch:

anthonyTD
01-10-2009, 08:14
hi all,
i still beleive that if you can deal with the room/speaker problems on a physical level, its a better compromise than putting another load of electronics into the signal path! and no,,, i am not biased against room correction electronics, i know they can work, [see my earlier post] but it still sounds some what artificial to me...
regards,anthony,TD...

steve68
01-10-2009, 08:21
Anthony
I use digital room correction, and have done for a couple of years now, I do not think it sounds artificial, i do think it is something that you have to adjust to, however i have warmed to the sound and find it incredibly involving and accurate.........rgds Steve68

anthonyTD
01-10-2009, 08:50
Anthony
I use digital room correction, and have done for a couple of years now, I do not think it sounds artificial, i do think it is something that you have to adjust to, however i have warmed to the sound and find it incredibly involving and accurate.........rgds Steve68
hi steve,
thats fine, and i am glad that it works for you, what i have stated is in my opinion, and i must stress that it should just be taken as that,,, horses for courses i guess.:)
A...

Steve Toy
01-10-2009, 08:57
Signal paths can be short and sweet as well as simple. It is always good when they can be made to work like that.

Rob Sinden
01-10-2009, 09:47
Agreed and it doesn't get much shorter than CD transport - power DAC - speaker.

hifi_dave
01-10-2009, 10:18
hi all,
i still beleive that if you can deal with the room/speaker problems on a physical level, its a better compromise than putting another load of electronics into the signal path! and no,,, i am not biased against room correction electronics, i know they can work, [see my earlier post] but it still sounds some what artificial to me...
regards,anthony,TD...

Totally, agree. I've set up systems in hundreds of rooms and all it takes to improve the sound is usually some extra soft furnishing and a move round of the furniture. Cheap and effective and all that the majority of customers will tolerate.

Rob Sinden
01-10-2009, 10:29
I guess it depends on how high you are aiming. If you want something that sounds nice I cant argue with that approach and it's obviously what 99% of people do. If you want something that is truely accurate however this wont cut the mustard - if it did why would all those acousticians be employed when you could just call in an interior designer?

DaveK
01-10-2009, 10:30
Totally, agree. I've set up systems in hundreds of rooms and all it takes to improve the sound is usually some extra soft furnishing and a move round of the furniture. Cheap and effective and all that the majority of customers will tolerate.

Not sure that Steve Toy shares your views - maybe he'll be along to comment later.
Cheers,

steve68
01-10-2009, 10:30
hifi Dave
Whilst I agree with you regarding soft furnishings etc to improve the sound of a system, I believe that a combination of treatment and electronic EQ will result in a far better more accurate sound......of course this is only my opinion, it helps when there is room decor considerations to take into account.
The system that you install are they mainly Hifi or Hmoe theatre?

Rob Sinden
01-10-2009, 10:41
For the past 15 years almost everything we've sold has been surround sound. Prior to this I sold hifis and now I getting back in to this market as technology has finally moved on sufficiently so that really accurate sound systems can now be installed consistantly.

It wont make me popular but the fact is that most hifi systems that use good equipment simply are not accurate. People can love their systems and derive tremendous pleasure from them, but they will not provide an accurate reproduction of sound becuase of the way the room affects their performance.

Moving furniture and adding rugs etc. can really help but as it simply cannot address the specific peaks in response that the room has created.

Tony Moore
01-10-2009, 11:32
I'll probably be drummed out of the room but...


People can love their systems and derive tremendous pleasure from them

I thought that was the point! ;)


but they will not provide an accurate reproduction of sound

I've never really expected it to. I could go and see a band and not be able to stand the "accurate" real sound because it's too loud, too peaky for my hearing, etc, etc. Within minutes my ears are closing down and affecting the response hugely anyway. I prefer to listen at lower levels so that I'm not overloading my hearing, so generally that wouldn't be realistic anyway.

Perhaps I'm not a _real_ "hifi" person. Perhaps I just like to listen to music that sounds non-offensive to my ears?

I don't disagree though that bass response and room interaction is a pain to get right and that some EQing using DSP would improve most setups. I think probably most of us DIYers have got somewhere near in our constant tweaking and adjustments to both the system and the room.

Cheers,
Tony

hifi_dave
01-10-2009, 11:37
hifi Dave
Whilst I agree with you regarding soft furnishings etc to improve the sound of a system, I believe that a combination of treatment and electronic EQ will result in a far better more accurate sound......of course this is only my opinion, it helps when there is room decor considerations to take into account.
The system that you install are they mainly Hifi or Hmoe theatre?

Almost exclusively two channel with a tiny bit of 2.1 thrown in.

Rob Sinden
01-10-2009, 11:39
Getting an enjoyable systems is obviously what is all about. I just find that if you want to listen to a wide range of music then a more accurate system is better.

Perhaps it's just the term "hi fidelity" that is misleading.

Spectral Morn
01-10-2009, 11:44
For the past 15 years almost everything we've sold has been surround sound. Prior to this I sold hifis and now I getting back in to this market as technology has finally moved on sufficiently so that really accurate sound systems can now be installed consistantly.

It wont make me popular but the fact is that most hifi systems that use good equipment simply are not accurate. People can love their systems and derive tremendous pleasure from them, but they will not provide an accurate reproduction of sound becuase of the way the room affects their performance.

Moving furniture and adding rugs etc. can really help but as it simply cannot address the specific peaks in response that the room has created.

That begs the question...."What is accuracy" ? Accuracy to what ? This is a very loaded topic but worth asking in the context that Rob has brought it up.

I for one have no way of knowing what is accurate in the recordings I listen to. I was not there during those recording sessions (and I suggest that very few of us ever are). Now I know what many instruments sound like having heard them in many locations over the years, but a friend who is a musician can take it to the next step knowing what amps or strings are used etc.

Is this accuracy more than just a flat frequency measurement...what about the emotion and intention behind the music...how can we measure that ?

While Rob is right that rooms have problems, IMHO/E most of those issues can be dealt with by system setup (picking the right gear to suit the room) and designing the room to minimise problems. Now electronic means can take it further, but can effect the music signal negatively as well as positively (but for me I think simplicity works best). Very bad rooms can't be helped, we all get them from time to time, and while designing a room say around the golden ratio and building it to be the very best environment possible; for most this is a fantasy. Commercial mastering and recording studios have been in the past built/designed to exacting standards, but with the rise of pro-tools and distance recording and transmitting music as data for a final mix....well where is the accuracy in that? Its not un-amplified acoustic instruments recorded in a real acoustic environment. Many recording conditions blended together via a computer and digitised.

There are many great set ups and systems, that despite being compromised and being in compromised environments still reward those who listen to them with very high fidelity results, but are they accurate probably no, but again accurate to what?

What are these systems and components you heard that troubled you so much that you felt home cinema was better? It would help to know this to provide us all with the reference points to your past experiences. To understand why you are where you are now.


Regards D S D L

Rob Sinden
01-10-2009, 15:55
Hi Neil
Thank you for the interest in my opinion.

I didn’t start selling home cinemas because I thought they were somehow better than stereos. I love music but regarded the high end hifi systems that were on offer 15 years ago as pretty poor. This is a view that I still hold of most current systems. Whilst I don’t have much of an argument with stereo systems below say £5k, when people are spending considerably more I think they often end up with a system that is very underwhelming.

I believe any high end audio system should be able to reproduce all the instruments in a band. This requires full range speakers which simply do not work in most rooms. The “solutions” most hifi dealers have to this problem are:

1. Ignore it and say you can tweak the system with racks, cables and other “upgrades” none of which way will really address the problem OR
2. Sell speakers that produce no bass and avoid the problem of standing waves.

I sold the same speaker system to dozens of customers’ years ago and the quality of sound they provided varied far more due to the rooms acoustics rather than the cost of electronics they were connected to.

Saying that you solve the problem by matching your speakers to your room simply isn’t a credible solution. Let’s assume that you have B&W 800 speakers in your room which create a 10db peak at 60Hz and a 6db peak at 120Hz and a variety of other smaller peaks – what speaker would you choose to fix these errors? It simply doesn’t exists.

You may like the results you have and be very, very happy with them, but this does not alter the fact that they are not accurate.
I sure there are many people that really don’t care about this fact, but if they do then the obvious first step is measuring their systems performance. Once people see how much the response of their systems varies from what the speaker designer intended, then if they want they can start to look at ways of rectifying the problem.

There seems to be a huge resistance to this which I find very odd. If it doesn’t interest you, fine, but if the pursuit of accurate sound reproduction is of interest then measuring the output of you complete system in your room seems such an obvious thing to do.
From that starting point it would be interesting to hear different people’s points of view as to the best ways of improving their systems in room response.

I know I haven’t answered all your questions but I think that’s enough for now….

Rob Sinden
01-10-2009, 16:02
I don’t know where to start with you question about “what is accurate”.
I think most of us recognise it when we hear it and this is how I feel.
Whilst I’m sure that a system that measures well doesn’t guarantee great sound I’m equally sure one that measures badly will provide bad sound.
You obviously cannot measure the emotion in music so I confine myself to measuring and correcting the things that I can, while using my ears for the rest.

Steve Toy
01-10-2009, 16:25
As well as considering the noise emerging from the speakers consider also the information recorded on the disc and how to capture it.

Spectral Morn
01-10-2009, 16:37
I agree with you Rob in that you need full range speakers to create all the sound frequencies contained in all musical instruments. However there are many rooms that will not support full range speakers.

Reading between the lines are you claiming that you can put a full range system into any size of room, even the very smallest ?

Regards D S D L

anthonyTD
01-10-2009, 16:39
I guess it depends on how high you are aiming. If you want something that sounds nice I cant argue with that approach and it's obviously what 99% of people do. If you want something that is truely accurate however this wont cut the mustard - if it did why would all those acousticians be employed when you could just call in an interior designer?
hi rob,
looking at it from a purist idea, in theory the more electronics you put in the signal path the more potential problems your likely to create as far as time delays, phase issues, etc, so,,,my point is, how do you know how much of the over-all correction needed is caused by the room correction equipment!!:confused:
regards,anthony,TD...

Clive
01-10-2009, 16:49
I'll mention my preference here....and it is simply my preference, I don't claim it's "the best".

I like unadulterated SET amps for the mid and treble, I don't want DSP near this area.

I like DSP for the bass (up to about 125Hz) in my system.

This for me works providing the best of both worlds - correction (DSP) where I really need it and simplicity (SET) where I want it.

Rob Sinden
01-10-2009, 17:04
Whilst I say full range, which I regard as down to 20Hz I cannot think of a recording that has any information this low, what I think is a more practical aim is a speaker that plays down to 40Hz +/-3b.
I believe that it is possible to use speakers with this response in small to medium rooms with the inclusion of the right room correction system.
I completely agree that keeping the signal path clean is vital. The systems I sell use a CD player as a transport and go digitally in to a power DAC with DSP that is the amp. I have never had anyone say they could hear any additional processing using this approach. In fact the most obvious thing that you would notice if you heard this type of system is a complete absence of background noise – or any other characteristic from the system.
A client with a conventional high end system recently put it very well. He burst out laughing listening to a Susan Vega recording. His comment was that it wasn’t what the system was doing that was remarkable, but what is wasn’t – I think these explains what you’d hear quite nicely.
I you have say a valve amp that you like the sound of I can see the inclusion of anything in line with the signal would be resisted. My point is that digital audio systems make things like room correction possible without adding to the signal path. This might not be for everyone, in the same way that horn or panel speakers may not be but it’s another very valid and interesting approach to high end sound reproduction.
In the analogue domain this jiggery pokery isn’t possible. If the signal is kept digital throughout the electronics it opens a whole world of possibilities.

Clive I can see you approach makes complete sense. I'd love to hear your system and you funky speakers.

Spectral Morn
01-10-2009, 17:11
Interesting.... At some point in the future I hope to hear your set up at an audio show, were by the hotel rooms limitations will be nullified.

I have heard both Tact and Lyngdorf a few years ago and while both set ups were good, neither would not have been high on my list of must hear again products. I realise in saying that, that a number of years have gone by and the shared origins of both companies now means very little. I am intrigued....but not convinced....yet.


Regards D S D L

twelvebears
01-10-2009, 17:18
I was just wondering if, in theory at least, digital correction could be introduced into any system which used digital sources?

By which a system in a room without correction produces an inaccurate measured frequency response with a test tone, then digital correction is applied to compensate.

I guess what I'm wondering is, whether it is theoretically possible to have a 'correction processor' in the chain of any digital based system to adjust things?

Rob Sinden
01-10-2009, 17:30
I wouldnt expect anyone to be convinced without a good listen and a good listen is all I'm trying to encourage.

From talking to people in the trade who love certain brands of hifi it's amazing to me that they are so convinced even after admitting that what they've heard at the factory wasn't that great.

It's definitely possible to have a correction processor in the chain of any hifi. I think you'll find this becomes common place in the future even though it will be bitterly resisted by "purist" companies who presumably think that a sound that varies 15db because of the room is still pure!

twelvebears
01-10-2009, 17:36
I wouldnt expect anyone to be convinced without a good listen and a good listen is all I'm trying to encourage.

From talking to people in the trade who love certain brands of hifi it's amazing to me that they are so convinced even after admitting that what they've heard at the factory wasn't that great.

It's definitely possible to have a correction processor in the chain of any hifi. I think you'll find this becomes common place in the future even though it will be bitterly resisted by "purist" companies who presumably think that a sound that varies 15db because of the room is still pure!

Well given how much a change of room can knacker a previously well sorted and balanced system, I'd be quite happy to have a crack a something which could potentially sort out room anomalies and allow a well loved system to be transplanted without such unpredictable results.

anthonyTD
01-10-2009, 17:36
hi rob,
you have mentioned accuracy time and time again through out your posting here and how its the main goal of you and your clientel, but on the other hand you seem to think its important to bring this earlier statement of yours to our attention!


A film producer who recently sat in front of the Royal Philiharmonic Orcheastra to listen to his latest movies score heard them this morning and said "they sound better than the orchestra"

surely this is a contradiction to what your supposed to be promoting:confused:
regards,anthony,TD...

Rob Sinden
01-10-2009, 17:42
It certainly appears to be a contradicition but it was his quote not mine.

I think what he meant is that when I played a superb recording, and he was perfectly placed and listening to the music at a volume level he found ideal then the results were better than that of going to many live performances.

I recently went to an opera and sat in the front row - but off centre and I found the sound disappointing.

anthonyTD
01-10-2009, 17:55
It certainly appears to be a contradicition but it was his quote not mine.

I think what he meant is that when I played a superb recording, and he was perfectly placed and listening to the music at a volume level he found ideal then the results were better than that of going to many live performances.

I recently went to an opera and sat in the front row - but off centre and I found the sound disappointing.
hi rob,
exactly!! that is why most people like to have the choice of how they listen to recorded music, and the way their system portrays it, its not all about accuracy, if your a musician [of which i deal with many on a day to day basis] then i can understand why they would want a system to reproduce a piece of music they had recorded under ideal conditions as accurately as posible just so they had a reffrence to adere to, but as stated lots of people who have been to a live concert would agree that they would rather not have "reproduced" and therfore have to listen to again and again what they experienced live!
regards,anthony,TD...

John
01-10-2009, 18:00
At rock concerts I usually stand pretty close to the mixing desk Unless its someone I want to really see and then I will get closer to see what they are doing

twelvebears
01-10-2009, 19:03
This thread has prompted some Googling and unearthed some interesting stuff on the Copland DRC-205

www.copland.dk/top/copland205index.html

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20090201.htm

Interesting.... and IF it actually could make significant improvements, worth considering, or at least auditioning for the £1500 it costs.....

Rob, with your experience in this field, have you played around with this unit at all?

Clive
01-10-2009, 19:45
Clive I can see you approach makes complete sense. I'd love to hear your system and you funky speakers.
Rob, given that I'm in Reading quite frequently it's more likely I'll be round to listen to one of your systems!

DSJR
01-10-2009, 20:49
'Scuse me fella's, is this thread about *just discussing* digital room correction, or a thread for Rob to try to flog his wares on a site where many posters appear to have some disposeable dosh? On the face of it, this seems like a polite version of the threads where RD and a certain west country manufacturer were accused of schilling. To be fair to RD (who I'm NOT a good friend of as it's thirty years since I last met him Marco ;)), his company seemed rarely mentioned unless someone broiught the make up in conversation. It looks to me that every other post on this is plugging the product in question...;)

Apologies, but I respectfully think that this scenario should be considered...

Clive
01-10-2009, 20:57
I'd have thought the thread is polite enough to be ok. There's not a lot of product being mentioned. I expect that those of us posting on the thread are not naive and there are a number of views being expounded.

DSJR
01-10-2009, 21:04
Fair do's. I'll delete the post if mods think necessary. It's just that I'm enjoying my music so much on a system costing peanuts in a smallish room with no severe bass problems (yes, even from Spendors :eek:)

Clive
01-10-2009, 21:09
I'm guessing though your room is small it's not close to square?

DSJR
01-10-2009, 21:11
No, t'isn't :)

Steve Toy
01-10-2009, 21:54
Dave, leave the post right where it is. Whilst I don't think Rob is anything like a certain AJ and JCB I Think it only right that these questions be asked.

I intend to take up Rob's invite. AJ made a similar gesture last year that I declined without any regret.

Joe
01-10-2009, 21:57
'Scuse me fella's, is this thread about *just discussing* digital room correction,

It's about 'why hifi doesn't work', which is a false premise, because mine clearly does.

Marco
01-10-2009, 22:12
Is it plugged in, lights up, and everyfink?

Marco.

Joe
01-10-2009, 22:13
Sure is. Got blue LEDs an' all!

Marco
01-10-2009, 22:14
:wow:

Marco.

Alex_UK
01-10-2009, 22:33
I've resisted posting on this thread so far... I wasn't around with the previous examples DSJR refers to, and whilst Rob is "evangelising" the technology, there isn't any gratuitous promotion of specific products. I'm interested in seeing it develop, and for anyone's experiences of the demo rooms - some quite amazing claims on the Gecko website, which I would be interested to see if they stand up to AoS members' scrutiny - sorry Rob, but if you put your head above the parapet with statements such a "There is only one place in the UK where you can hear film and music at its very best" and "If you want to enjoy your music and movies exactly as the artist or director intended, our systems are sonically and measurably beyond compare" then there will be a few challengers!


from £2800 to £200,000 for the stereos. From £8k - £500k for surround systems.

I think what is more interesting is what is different about these systems compared to any alternatives which briefly is:
- they are digital throughout the electronics so no noise or colouration is added
- they are measured and corrected with RoomPerfect arguable the best room correction system available.

If I'm blowing half a mill on a telly, I don't want a system that is arguable (sic) the best room correction system, I want the one from your website that is "sonically and measurably beyond compare" please! ;)

Sorry for being so flippant, please don't take offence, but the chances of me spending that sort of money would only come with a very big lottery win, and then I would morally struggle. How many telephone-number cost systems do you sell a year, by the way? I'm intrigued as to how many Premiership footballers spend a month's salary with you! :eyebrows:

DaveK
01-10-2009, 22:49
I refer all honourable gentlemen to my post, no. 2, on this thread. I know some of our members are self employed, self made business men or not short of a bob or two for other reasons but how many of us are seriously in the market for this sort of kit. I still suspect a marketing ploy in very thin disguise but also think it's likely to be destined for failure.
This thread may just prove to be the exception to the saying, "There's no such thing as bad publicity".
No offence intended - just my opinion.
Cheers,

Alex_UK
01-10-2009, 23:01
The other issue I have is that "analogue" is dismissed as being inferior - I would imagine a few others on here would take issue with that, too.

From the Website - http://www.geckohomecinema.com/lyngdorf.asp

"Only Lyngdorf music systems maintain an unbroken digital chain throughout their electronics. This reduces the distortion, noise and colouration that other hifi systems create – it’s like comparing CD with vinyl or tape."

And

[I]"Listening to music you are familiar with on a full Lyngdorf 2.2 music system is a revelation. With the fundamental errors that compromise all other systems removed you will hear detail and nuances in your music that until now had been hidden by the noise of your electronics and the distortion that your room’s acoustics have created." ["With the fundamental errors that compromise all other systems removed" is the phrase I specifically struggle with - a bit of a sweeping statement and impossible to prove one way or the other, surely?]

The Grand Wazoo
01-10-2009, 23:19
Gotta say, I've got problems with your approach here Rob.
I know you've got a business to run but I might be a little less sceptical if you were seen to be contributing to some of the other discussions (of which there are plenty).

It doesn't seem to me as though you have any other reason to be here than to flog your wares....sorry, but that's how it looks.

As for accurate audio systems, well I realised long ago that there is no such thing - happy & delighted to be proven wrong though - but you've got some work to do proving it to me.

Alex_UK
01-10-2009, 23:30
I can't afford a fancy car but I still like to read about them.

Business can't be that good then? ;) Sorry, my (flippant, again) point being that to most people, a "fancy car" is a lot higher up their priority list than a hifi, however good it is.

John
02-10-2009, 05:20
You can have room correction on analogue based system I think Clive system would be a good example of this. While I enjoy digital based systems my preferenceis still with ananlogue A decent TT through a good sounding system is a joy to hear
I tend to agree with Chris there is no such thing as 100% accurate sound

Rob Sinden
02-10-2009, 06:50
I’m sure everyone reading this realises that I’m not spending all this time just for the love of it. I have stuff to sell and am quite open about it. I have made some huge claims on my site about how much more accurate the systems we sell are. Hopefully some people will be intrigued by this while others will think is BS.

The reason I am spending so much time writing on Forums is because I feel that we have done a much better job of addressing one of the weakest links in hifi – the room – than anyone else.

I believe that no matter how superb the equipment you use is, the room will compromise its performance significantly. Because of this I’m very into any solution that will reduce the effects of the room / speaker interface. For the last 12 years or so that has meant sub /sat systems, now I have also built what I regard as the best listening room in the country and am also using room correction.

I don’t for a minute think that someone with valves and horn speakers is likely to change to the sort of equipment we sell, but hopefully some of what I have to say will still be interesting. If someone likes tweaking their hifi, why they wouldn’t be interested in measuring their systems performance for example is a little odd to me.

Finally I have been very clear about wanting people to come here who I expect have no intention of buying the equipment we sell but are still interested in what it does. As some point I hope to see some of you’re here for a blast and then I’m sure that you’ll report your findings to other people on the Forum.

The people that I have talked to on the Forum have systems that are so completely different to what I sell that if they report back favourably it will be a miracle. Just look at the feedback of the hifi shows and this is clear. I do however believe that anyone who comes here will find the systems we have are far more accurate than anything they have heard before and will say as much in their feedback to you.

If not I know there will be lots of hifi geeks and people in the trade who will absolutely love to spend their time exposing me for being a charlatan!

Marco
02-10-2009, 07:53
Personally I think this is a very interesting discussion, but agree that it is straying a little into somewhat of an advertorial for Rob's products, which is not really in-line with what this section of the forum is about.

Rob, I'm enjoying your contributions so far and think that it's providing some food for thought for our members (it's all about learning and sharing information/experiences, after all), however I would ask that if you wish the thread to remain in this section of the forum and not moved to the trade area, that you steer the discussion away from advertising your company and its specific audio solutions, and into more of a general discussion regarding room correction treatments, home cinema, or whatever.

It would also be appreciated if you contributed to other discussions that are taking place on the forum. For example, what music do you like listening to?

Thanks in advance :)

Marco.

hifi_dave
02-10-2009, 08:49
This is exactly the way it went on PFM when Rob was accused of following 'the AVI book of marketing'. It's simply marketing disguised as discussion.

As for the title of the thread - I believe Hi-Fi does work and works extremely well giving pleasure to millions of people without the 'benefit' of digital room correction. I've installed systems in countless numbers of rooms over the years and never found anyone even remotely interested in spending any extra on room correction gear.

Marco
02-10-2009, 08:59
I agree, Dave, but the biggest difference of course is that Rob has a much nicer and more respectful way of expressing himself than any of the characters belonging to the AVI marketing machine ;)

The thing is though, we can't allow Rob to use the main parts of the forum as an out-and-out advertorial for his products, otherwise our other trade members will be wondering why they can't do the same with their stuff - fair's fair, and all that :)

The most successful trade members of any forum are those who take the time and effort to integrate with the resident community, interacting and getting to know people on a personal level, rather than simply using the facilities as an end to further their business interests.

Time will tell, but I've yet to see any evidence of the former from Rob other than inviting people to his facility...

Marco.

twelvebears
02-10-2009, 14:26
This thread has prompted some Googling and unearthed some interesting stuff on the Copland DRC-205

www.copland.dk/top/copland205index.html

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20090201.htm

Interesting.... and IF it actually could make significant improvements, worth considering, or at least auditioning for the £1500 it costs.....

Rob, with your experience in this field, have you played around with this unit at all?

As this is apparently a discussion about room correction, I just wondered if Rob would like to comment on my previous post? Or is it only his own correction kit he can discuss?

leo
02-10-2009, 15:15
Only time I heard a Lyngdorf system was a few years ago at the Bristol show, me and my uncle met up with two mates (both of them are valve amp users, a couple of AOS members knows one of them) we was all keen to experience this room correction.

Unfortunately we didn't really like the sound of the system with or without the room correction so it didn't really go too well for us , I can't remember the model of the units, one of my mates commented it sounded processed, the other said it sounds very digital and with the room correction both said it sounded too controlled and couldn't live with it.
The system reminded me of the affects from upsampling , if this was down to the amp or what I don't really know.
I'm afraid after that experience I never felt the urge to look further into it, I'm sure things have improved now but that experience put me off tbh, some people did love the sound though, infact it seems a lot of people was impressed with it

Marco
02-10-2009, 15:27
Well, I guess that if you don't like the sound of Lyngdorf gear then it doesn't matter what the room correction does...........

Do you have to use Lyngdorf gear in order to obtain the room correction benefits Rob is discussing? What if you prefer valves and vinyl and don't much like the sound of digital or solid-state kit?

Marco.

Steve Toy
02-10-2009, 15:39
If the system communicates music the way mine does right now, as long as there isn't a massive hump or suckout at any given frequency I could not give a f*ck about having an in-room flat response. If the system sounds sterile, brittle and processed no amount of equalisation is going to fix that.

I would like to hear it for sure but I am half expecting to discover a very shiny turd.

I also wonder what could be achieved with proper kit, a decent front end, properly set up (rather than plonked on some pretty sideboard with cables tucked out of the way) and room correction combined if this were possible.

Mr. C
02-10-2009, 15:57
Lyngdorf = great hifi, poor musical involvement and expression.
With the 'L' style dsp added the sound though while very 'pretty' and placed according to 'audiophile rules' is obviously manipulated in the digital domain and was devoid of any true musical realism and involvement.
If you have to use dsp, get the speaker placement as close as possible, before have to 'screw the sound', this will minimise the effect of the dsp ' Audio re-adjustment systems'
Still great to see a marketing ploy has been given the short shift it deserves.

Marco
02-10-2009, 16:04
If the system communicates music the way mine does right now, as long as there isn't a massive hump or suckout at any given frequency I could not give a f*ck about having an in-room flat response. If the system sounds sterile, brittle and processed no amount of equalisation is going to fix that.


Well you mentioned that the most expensive CDP Rob sells is £1800...

With respect to him, in a genuine high-end high resolution system you're more likely to hear the limitations of an £1800 CDP before those of the room, unless the room is *really* shit.

I certainly wouldn't downgrade my digital source (Audiocom-modified Sony transport and DAC = £5.5k) to an £1800 Lyngdorf in order to obtain some notional benefits from room correction... :)

I would therefore suggest that if Rob wants to appeal to the most discerning listeners that he will need to add some better 'front-ends' to his product portfolio.

Marco.

leo
02-10-2009, 16:31
Lyngdorf = great hifi, poor musical involvement and expression.
With the 'L' style dsp added the sound though while very 'pretty' and placed according to 'audiophile rules' is obviously manipulated in the digital domain and was devoid of any true musical realism and involvement.
If you have to use dsp, get the speaker placement as close as possible, before have to 'screw the sound', this will minimise the effect of the dsp ' Audio re-adjustment systems'
Still great to see a marketing ploy has been given the short shift it deserves.

Certainly a lot of DSP added in that system we heard Tony

Rob Sinden
02-10-2009, 16:54
This thread seems to have dissolved into slagging off what I’m saying rather than looking at some of the facts I’ve pointed out and the issues they raise.

If you are offended by someone with a different point of view to you, here are some statements that I consider factual that may offend your religion further.

Fact 1: Rooms change the performance of audio systems significantly

Fact 2: The hifi trade does little or nothing about the problem

Fact 3: Thinking you can remove the enormous impact of the room by choosing a speaker to “match the room” simply will not avoid serious peaks and troughs in your systems performance

Fact 4: If you are not dealing with the impact of the rooms’ acoustics by room treatment or room correction you are not dealing with all the elements that affect sound quality. As such regardless of how good the hifi you have is, it will never faithfully reproduce music.

Alex Nikitin
02-10-2009, 17:02
As such regardless of how good the hifi you have is, it will never faithfully reproduce music.

And when you use DSP to correct the room acoustics the system will faithfully reproduce all the sounds but not the music ;) .

Alex

Steve Toy
02-10-2009, 17:03
Can we have a better front end, everything set up properly and DSP, Rob? You have only covered half the bases. A little more thoroughness is required.

Fact: what is lost at or near source cannot be reclaimed further down the chain. Speaker/room is very much at the back end of the chain. Until you accept this you will only be turd polishing.

Nobody is slagging you off but absolutism on your part is getting in the way of you understanding the bigger picture. This is not a religion.

Rob Sinden
02-10-2009, 17:10
I’m sorry but it absolutely isn’t me that cannot see the bigger picture.
Rooms screw up audio systems and I’m saying that addressing this is critical to accurate sound reproduction.
The vast majority of hifi buff do very little to address this critical problem and so will never end up with an accurate hifi.
If you believe the change from a £2k CD player to a £6k unit will make more of a difference than dealing with the huge peaks and troughs that room acoustics make I can only say I completely disagree.

leo
02-10-2009, 17:12
Hope I didn't offend anybody, was just posting an opinion after hearing a demo myself

It seemed to us that it tried to solve one common problem but added its own problems during the process

Rob Sinden
02-10-2009, 17:15
No offence at all. Who can agree on something as critical as hifi?

Steve Toy
02-10-2009, 17:17
Changing to a better front end will make a less noticeable sonic difference but it will reveal more insight into what is recorded on the disc.

Such differences are subtle but fundamental. As I keep asking, why can't you tackle both issues at the same time or would this upset/put off much of your target wealthy clientele?

Rob Sinden
02-10-2009, 17:18
I'm not talking about the products I sell. It seems to be other people expressing their opinion on them.

I'm talking about how rooms affect systems performance and different ways of fixing these errors.

Rob Sinden
02-10-2009, 17:23
There seems to be plenty of people that will know so much more than me about front ends that my opinions in this area are pretty worthless.
I see the weakest link as the room which is why I’m talking about this element. If I thought the weak link was cables or mains or isolation I’d be talking about these things however I don’t believe these elements are what let most systems down.
Similarly I don’t think I have much I can contribute in my choice of music so I don’t join in this Forum.

Marco
02-10-2009, 17:29
I’m sorry but it absolutely isn’t me that cannot see the bigger picture.
Rooms screw up audio systems and I’m saying that addressing this is critical to accurate sound reproduction.
The vast majority of hifi buff do very little to address this critical problem and so will never end up with an accurate hifi.
If you believe the change from a £2k CD player to a £6k unit will make more of a difference than dealing with the huge peaks and troughs that room acoustics make I can only say I completely disagree.


Everything is relative, Rob.

I live in an early 19th century lodge - all the rooms are irregularly-shaped, have oak beams, and extremely thick walls. They're also sympathetically furnished. The result of that is pretty good acoustics, particularly in my dedicated listening room where I have optimised things even further in that respect. I use huge vintage Tannoy speakers in there with 15" drivers (and a valve amp) with great success. Essentially, my room provides an excellent platform from which to build a hi-fi system.

I'm not saying it's perfect (no room is) and that some room correction treatment wouldn't improve things further, but simply that as I already have a very good room for my system, the benefits of me improving my equipment (source, amps, speakers or whatever) in my situation is liable to provide far greater benefits. I understand though that not everyone has a purpose-built listening room.

The point I'm making, and I'm totally with Steve here, is that no matter how much you optimise the sound of a room, any system you supply will ultimately be limited by the quality of its source component, in your case an £1800 Lyngdorf CDP. With respect, that does not in any way represent the pinnacle of audio performance. The fact is, until you stock better quality source equipment your 'audio solution' will unfortunately have little appeal to more discerning audiophiles/music enthusiasts, especially those with already very good dedicated listening rooms and systems to match...... :)

Marco.

Rob Sinden
02-10-2009, 17:43
How you can dismiss a system because one of the components is too cheap is beyond me?

I'm sure that your room sounds great. I'm equally sure that it still creates significant errors. I believe addressing these errors is likely to provide much greater performance benefits than changing from an already very competent product to one that is infintessimally better.

I know that you will not change your view point but I have heard many high end systems that I found very underwhelming.

Where I am unusual is that I have also heard several professionally designed rooms. In these rooms far more affordable systems have sound superb to me.

It's all about diminishing returns and addressing the biggest problem first which with a good system is typically the room.

Marco
02-10-2009, 17:58
How you can dismiss a system because one of the components is too cheap is beyond me?


I'm not "dismissing" it or saying that it's "too cheap"; merely highlighting that the Lyngdorf is not the 'last word' in performance as a digital source. I'm led to believe that this is the 'top' CDP or source component you sell - is that correct?

I know from experience, Rob, what sub £2k commercial CDPs sound like. Perhaps you could explain how the Lyngdorf is any different?

From that experience, I also know how far more capable sources, such as my Sony transport and DAC (and others like it), or my turntable (or others like it), easily outperform them. Like Steve says: "Fact: what is lost at or near source cannot be reclaimed further down the chain."

So to repeat myself yet again............ Any 'audio solution' you supply to customers, once the room has been 'corrected' will always be limited/governed by the quality of the source component and the rest of the ancillaries.

If you wish to appeal to hard-core audiophiles like me, you'll need to improve your range of equipment, otherwise you won't get the business no matter what your room correction treatment does.

Do you see my point now or are you going to continue to deliberately miss it and argue until the cows come home??

Marco.

anthonyTD
02-10-2009, 17:58
hi all,
some very valid points all round, one thing i would like to know is, if rob supplies systems up to £500k can he itemise what you would actualy get for that,:confused: considering the front end only costs £1,800, or am i completely on the wrong trail here.
regards,anthony,TD...

Steve Toy
02-10-2009, 18:05
Ok Rob, here is your challenge: build a system either for yourself or a fellow music lover and pay attention to all aspects including room correction. Your objective is both to remove all sonic room nasties as well as extract as much info as possible from a CD. No matter how sorted the room acoustics are after DSP you will still need to retrieve maximum detail from the disc.

Your budget is 15k.

John
02-10-2009, 18:25
Rob what people are saying is the better the quality of the signal the better results
For instance if you have digital errors coming into the system no amout of room correction will overcome this

John
02-10-2009, 18:34
I once tried the Behringer ultra curve 2496 in my system I quickly got rid of it
I have friends who use it just for the bass and that seems to work best when I tried it I also had it connected to the mid and treeble as well

Beechwoods
02-10-2009, 19:07
I've got to say that if I'd got that kind of money I'd be spending it on kit that really worked in my own room, rather than relying on tricks to make gear unsuited to the room work via DSP. Room treatments can fix certain problems at it's root - undesirable resonances, refections, but unless the DSP is using phase cancellation principles and secondary sound sources it'll never deal with the root problem.

Isn't DSP just a way to knock the worst edges off great kit shoe-horned into the wrong room?

hifi_dave
02-10-2009, 19:30
That sums it up pretty accurately.:lol:

Themis
02-10-2009, 20:12
There are some people who think that an anechoic room is best for listening music... :scratch: I guess I wouldn't like that.

Stratmangler
02-10-2009, 20:32
There are some people who think that an anechoic room is best for listening music... :scratch: I guess I wouldn't like that.

Very weird in anechoic rooms - it's just plain weird to be in an enclosed space with no reverberation whatsoever.

Chris:)

twelvebears
02-10-2009, 21:00
Rob.

I was trying to indicate that I was very interested in the concept of room correction by asking what you thought of the Copland unit (assuming you have any experience), but as you and the rest of the crew seem to have no interest and have started to go down a potentially argumentative path, I'll leave you to it.

Have fun chaps. :lolsign:

Steve Toy
02-10-2009, 21:10
It is not really argumentative but some questions could perhaps be answered to the benefit of those on both sides.

Cotlake
02-10-2009, 21:17
Fact: what is lost at or near source cannot be reclaimed further down the chain. Speaker/room is very much at the back end of the chain. Until you accept this you will only be turd polishing.

Hmmm, this is a bit of a deception. Whilst in principle it makes logical sense, my experience frequently over the years has been that some of the cheapest sources in a system have been properly reproducing all the content of a recording. It is what comes after the source that is often dropping out the detail. Steve's statement rather smarts of the old 1980's 'flat earth' source first arguement which has been disproved.

I have been gobsmacked over the years to find that as I progressed with kit, often the biggest difference and improvement to sound I got invariably related to an amp or speaker upgrade rather than the source. Don't get my view out of proportion. Obviously I realise the quality of the source is as important as the rest of the kit, but over the years I've learnt that when it comes to making a difference, the hiarachy is probably speaker followed by amp with the source last. I know several audiofools who persist with some of the cheapest source equipment but have mega quality amps and speakers. By way of example, for a long time I stuck with an original Arcam Alpha CD player. Everytime I upgraded the speakers and amps, I got more detail and heard stuff previously unrevealed on a recording. Clearly the old Arcam was doing the business well and I only realised what good stuff it was doing when upgrades were brought to the rest of the system which led to revealed detail I'd not heard before. At an Eggfest several years ago, James Doddington with his very expensive and quality OB speakers and simple valve amp was driving it all from a portable CD player and the sound was brilliant. We later drove the system with an early personal MP3 player and again it was great. Very often, things are not as we expect.

I suppose I've gone slightly OT so to keep it relevant, as an ardent DIYer, I have no interest in room correction systems. As I build everything, I can tune everything to get the balanced sound in my room that suits me. To address what Rob argues, that means getting everything comfortably accurate, recognising that no home system will ever ever reproduce what can be heard when optimally seated in a concert hall. The studio arguement is a nonsense because no-one actually listens in a studio for pleasure. Having said that, I doff my cap to Clive who has the same approach as me. He is however in another league when it comes to the quality of a DIY system and I have confidence in his approach to room correction. Sorry, I have little faith in a commercial option, but hey, horses for courses. Furthermore, when it comes to accuracy and comparison with the live sound, every venue has a different accoustic so the same peice of music live will sound different at the different venues. That starts to make Rob's approach doubtable. On the other hand, if it's just about making a system sound good in any room, fine. Personally I'd prefer to tune my room and kit accordingly and not introduce another component into the system to enable me to avoid doing the basic things. It does however very much facilitate the ignorant and lazy when the customer has a big wallet. If there is a market there to be exploited, Rob seems to have found it. It is a market however and certainly not a funamental element required for all audiofools.

Not everyone can or wants to approach the hobby as Clive and I do. If some can afford commmercial room correction and it works for them, they and Rob will be happy:)

Regards,

Greg

alfie2902
02-10-2009, 22:02
I'm not so sure alot of you are being very fair to Rob!

The value of a product doesn't mean it will be better than a cheaper product!

There seems to be alot of promotion of a pretty cheap Record deck on this forum & when modded with some nice upgrades becomes a match for some rather more expensive decks whilst still being reatively cheap! So i'm not sure how you can say the Lyngdorf is not up to the job! Have any of you even heard it?

I believe a cheaper system in a well sorted room can outshine many thousands of pounds worth of gear in a bad room. We've all been to shows & heard some pretty bad set ups of gear that is very well regarded. We've all heard speakers sound awesome in one room & pretty poor in another room. we've all liked speakers in a hifi dem room & then not liked that same speaker in our own room! Rooms play a big part in what we hear.

How many of us have had an RTA in our listening rooms? If you're getting +/- 6-12db(or even greater!) peaks & dips at certain frequencies i suspect that may well negate the fine nuances of performance that a better front end would give you!

I'm not sure about digital correction at all!, I have no experiance so can't really comment! but i do believe you should know your rooms shortfalls!

A couple of years ago, pre-divorce, i had the pleasure of a dedicated listening room, not so lucky now I'm afraid! A HiFi buff friend of mine who works in the field of accoustics popped around with his RTA & had a play. The first thing he did after taking a few measurements was to move my listening position to the place in the room with the least standing waves then move my speakers relative to this position, this took quite awhile, moving, another set of readings, fine tuning, more readings & the end result that evening was like a massive upgrade. I never got around to buying room treatments but we did move a bookcase & my CD rack to help with 1st reflections & also hung a rug on the back wall. That evening proved to me that the room is another major componant that can & will hamstring your system!

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 07:33
I’m glad this thread seems to have got back to a sharing of views. I completely agree with what Greg has said about hearing some superb systems running off cheap sources and it is partly hearing these systems that made me address the old accepted wisdom of system design.

I have built a room that will give very good results and what is most noticeable about listening to systems in this room is how much more information is heard outside the width of the speakers and up the side walls.
I have spent about £25k on the rooms’ acoustic design and treatment with the help of www.rivesaudio.com . Take a look at the rooms they design if you are interested in the subject.

What is interesting is that even in this exceptional acoustic space room correction still improves the performance. In another part of this building in an untreated space the same audio system sounds very similar if used with room correction.

The best stereo system I sell is the Model D Steinway Lyngdorf system which is $188k ex vat. This is sold as a complete system so I cannot give you a breakdown of the component parts.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 07:51
I have said that I haven’t been involved in selling high quality stereos for 15 years and so am not familiar with many of the makes and models people use.

I am however unusual in having experience of dedicated listening rooms which I have generally heard in the USA. After visiting most major manufacturers in the UK to hear their dem rooms I’ve heard nothing in the UK that compares.

On a visit to a speaker manufacturer in the USA, the systems I heard at their factory really blew me away, so much so that I started importing and selling their products. Unfortunately I was never able to reproduce the same quality of sound with their products – because the listening rooms I had weren’t of the same quality.

My conviction that the room is as important as the equipment used made me build the best possible listening rooms I could afford last years – something that I regard as being sorely missing from a country that claims to be so expert in home audio.

To explain my views another way, this is roughly how I regard a good £15k hifi system might “score”.

Electronics 9.00
Speakers 7.00
Room 3.00
Total 19.00 out of 30

I would suggest that with 15-20% of the budget spent on room treatment and or room correction, the following results could be achieved

Electronics 8.50
Speakers 8.50
Room 6.50
Total 23.5 out of 30

hifi_dave
03-10-2009, 08:02
A couple of years ago, pre-divorce, i had the pleasure of a dedicated listening room, not so lucky now I'm afraid! A HiFi buff friend of mine who works in the field of accoustics popped around with his RTA & had a play. The first thing he did after taking a few measurements was to move my listening position to the place in the room with the least standing waves then move my speakers relative to this position, this took quite awhile, moving, another set of readings, fine tuning, more readings & the end result that evening was like a massive upgrade. I never got around to buying room treatments but we did move a bookcase & my CD rack to help with 1st reflections & also hung a rug on the back wall. That evening proved to me that the room is another major componant that can & will hamstring your system!

I don't think anyone has said that the room isn't important. The question is do you want to spend a whole heap of money on extra digital electronics which may interfere with the sound you enjoy or do what you did and move things around a bit and possibly apply some inexpensive absorbers and diffusers.

I have known many people do the latter but no one interested in digital room correction. Most have spent all they can on a good system and enjoyit as is.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 08:16
I’m very interested in how DIY systems manage to reduce room problems. I have no idea how audio products are designed but would assume that if you are making your own electronics, their response is quite accurate.

I think speakers are typically less accurate but would still provide a response of say 40Hz – 20 KHz +/- 3db.

Given that typical in room variations of 15db are normal, I assume that have to radically alter the response of your speakers so that say a 10db peak at 100Hz and a 6db peak at 140Hz are reduced to give an even in room response.

Is this how it works?
Do you measure your systems in room response and then adjust your speakers’ response accordingly?
How difficult is it to design a speaker crossover that would reduce these peaks without creating other problems?

Mr. C
03-10-2009, 08:28
Rob,

I believe you will find the vast majority of members on this board are very aware of the room / speaker inter-actional issues that arise from music reply systems.
Having been immersed in this technology for a wee while with some of the finest digital signal processing (both video and audio) engineers in Europe.
My personal conclusions are very simple, dsp has its place, it can over come a lot of problems of room integration and give you that finger tip frequency manipulation. However it does this at the expense of TRUE MUSICAL INVOLVEMENT, sure the picture is pretty, the hifi traits are there in spades, yet on the whole it is devoid of engaging you musically on a very basic level.
No matter how good the dsp engine you can always tell it has been 'mechanically contrived', naturalness free flowing and liquid sounds are omitted from the equation.
On the whole, non willy wavers who are true music lovers tend to listen to music, not techno engineered contrived hifi sounds.
Room treatments can be important, however the music/ cinema should be allowed to breathe freely, not trapped to buggery in a flat 20-20Khz response curve.
Anyone who has had the misfortune to actually to listen to 'What hifi's' acoustic suite will understand the meaning of 'DEAD' LOL

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 08:45
As I’ve said before I never had anyone say that they can hear the DSP involved in the systems we use. As the electronics are all digital there is no additional D/A or A/D going on and so the room correction is truly transparent.

What I don’t find transparent are the very obvious peaks and troughs that are present listening to systems in many rooms.

The fact that none of the major manufacturers have figured out an effective way of addressing these problems because their electronics are analogue means that people selling hifi’s haven’t figured out a way of profiting from correcting room problems.
When one of these manufacturers does offer some form of device that reduces the huge peaks rooms create it will no doubt be hailed as a breakthrough.

Until then I sure it will continue to be ignored by the trade whilst they will continue to admit in private that the systems they sell really cannot reproduce the sound of live music.

By the way I must say I'm really enjoying the banter. Shame it cant be done in the pub or in front of a music system!

John
03-10-2009, 08:57
The promise of what you are saying Rob has been made many times I heard a lLyndrof system a few years back and it had the issues Mr C has talked about
I would be willing to hear for myself

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 09:13
I’m amazed that I can be called a “non true music lover” because I don’t agree with the way hifi systems are usually designed.

I think your comment about “techno engineered contrived hifi sounds” is equally revealing. Much of the hifi world is terrified of new technology because it is gradually de mystifying the black art that surrounds hifi and replacing it with logical, science. If this keeps up as it inevitably will hifi dealers selling black arts will be further marginalized and will have to go and get proper jobs.

If you looked at what Rives Audio do and understood something about Lyngdorf’s philosophy you would understand that neither recommend a dead room.

There's nothing like an open mind is there?

pure sound
03-10-2009, 09:25
What I don’t find transparent are the very obvious peaks and troughs that are present listening to systems in many rooms.



You must find enjoying live music in many venues a real challenge then

Alex Nikitin
03-10-2009, 09:47
Much of the hifi world is terrified of new technology because it is gradually de mystifying the black art that surrounds hifi and replacing it with logical, science. If this keeps up as it inevitably will hifi dealers selling black arts will be further marginalized and will have to go and get proper jobs.

That is a myth, IMHO, based on the fact that almost all digitally recorded music is inherently low resolution and allows all kind of digital torture without much further damage. However if you have a genuine good quality analogue source - old vinyl, R2R or even a humble cassette, than all this digital trickery very obviously kills the original quality. If you deal with CDs as a main source than yes, the sound quality is already damaged enough, so who cares what kind of DSP you apply. Even MP3 is not that much worse :doh: .

My main problem with the modern sound industry is exactly that - general lowering of standards with the advance of CD and after that an attempt to invoke a pseudo-science to prove that the artificial is better than natural. It happens not only in hi-fi thought ;) .

Alex

Clive
03-10-2009, 09:50
Wow, I go to London to see those youngsters Mott The Hoople and look what happens to this thread. Some of the posts are close to vitriolic (not today’s posts), possibly due to past experiences elsewhere with unscrupulous people using forums as a marketing tool. In my view Rob is just keeping on the right side of the line in that he’s not pushing products by name but instead sticking up for a philosophy that he believes in. The thread could sit in the Trade room though for me this would make no difference as I click on “new posts” rather than browse by room.

This thing about an £1,800 CDP not being that good or hi-end; on the one hand I’d expect a traditional manufacturer with distributors to price position their products carefully so probably it’s not as good as a £10,000 CDP. On the other hand we have products from the likes of Stan who’s DACs are far from disgraced in any company when fed with a decent digital data stream. Price is not always a good basis for comparison. There’s also a lot of higher priced digital gear that has been bettered by older generation predecessors. Without having heard the CDP in question I don’t think we can judge it.

Moving onto rooms, the UK does see to ignore room treatment more than the US, whether this be absorbing/reflecting panel and traps, using DSP or both. In general UK rooms are smaller than US rooms, our rooms tend to have dimensions such as 12ft, 15ft, 18ft, 20ft with ceilings 8ft or less, 10ft, 11ft. Standing waves occur with such dimensions between something 30Hz and 80Hz with associated harmonics. I find that bass varies significantly as I walk around such rooms. You can position equipment and listening position carefully to minimize standing wave issues but there will still be standing waves in the room away from the listening position, this has a negative effect on decay times. I do not claim that room treatment eliminates these issues but it helps considerably.

A full-range DSP system can be achieved inexpensively with a Behringer DEQ 2496 but I must stress that if used full-range some parts need upgrading to make it suitable for hi-fi use. Depending on the structure of specific systems it need not be expensive to include good DSP products for the bass. My bass units crossover at 82Hz which means they have significant output up to more like 120Hz. My bass units need their own amplifiers so to employ DSP instead of using a standard plate amplifier I need a bass amp with DSP included. The ones I use are 550€ each, not bargain basement but not horribly expensive either considering these are high spec bass amps and well as DSP units.

BTW, I don't think it's right to dismiss all DSP because you've heard some you don't like. You could do the same with any technology, eg amplifer topology. As ever though the quality of results is more to do with the care taken with the implementation. Do recording studios ever eq using DSP?

If nothing else this thread has hopefully opened some eyes to a neglected area - that of room treatment. Not everyone will agree with Rob’s approach, I personally prefer to keep DSP just on the bass. I’ve heard DSP full range, I’m not especially keen on it but it would be interesting to hear the latest technology.

Anyway I would say that room treatments or “partial DSP” need not be expensive to implement and could in some circumstance be some peoples’ most cost effective upgrade.

Marco
03-10-2009, 10:09
Hi Rob,

Rather than get further embroiled in a circular debate about this subject, I've got a suggestion for you, so let's cut to the chase...

I'm afraid the only way I'm going to be convinced with your approach is to hear it with my own ears in my system, so here's what I suggest:

I'll give you an open invitation to come and visit me with whatever room correction devices and/or Lyngdorf gear you care to bring. You can hear my system as it is, then 'do your stuff', and we'll compare the effect before and after. If with your room treatment the sound is better (using my judgement criteria) I'll acknowledge that, but if it's worse to my ears, the same will apply!

The test has to be carried out in my system so I can assertain whatever 'problems' my room may have.

I'll then do a full write-up of my experiences on the forum for everyone to read, and trust me if it's positive in terms of your products, that will be the best advertising on here you can get ;)

Are you up for it?

Marco.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 10:26
Brilliant, let's do it.

Steve Toy
03-10-2009, 10:45
Unlike elsewhere most of us here are prepared to listen first before passing any final judgement. I am certainly not saying that room correction has no benefit.

I am saying that Rob should not view his approach as some kind of panacea that completely overrides all others. I am also sure that no matter how good Rob's systems are in addressing key sonic issues with hi-fi (and I am certainly not underestimating the potential benefits of his approach) they could still be further improved in terms of detail retrieval and musical involvement by paying attention to other setup issues.

I bet I could further improve his systems with a few tweaks that would benefit mainly the front end. I bet also that Rob himself would clearly hear such improvements.

The Lyngdorf transport/ player would need to be heard against competitors in order to assess its individual worth. It may of course be a complete bargain at 1800 quid but then solid engineering rarely comes cheap.

Swapping out the lifestyle sideboards for decent supports will also bring enormous benefit to the subtleties of musical performances buried in recordings.

Rob, why not cover all bases rather than focus solely on just one aspect?

I know of at least 3 dealers who focus on both getting the front end right and on room correction. Why not take the opportunity to improve your game further and make it 4?

As well as adding value to your customers' purchases you may enjoy the result yourself. Good hi-fi is never achieved by resting on your laurels for there really is no such thing as perfect hi-fi.

The next time you are in London listen to a busker playing alto sax on the Tube. Marvel at the expression, the inflection, the dynamics and the sheer magic of it. The room acoustics of those tunnels is pretty shit too yet the music is totally enchanting.

Now try and make one of your top-flight systems do that without paying attention to the front end.

....................

Edit: just read Marco's post above. This should be interesting. Rob, take your CD player with you too to compare. I am sure Marco has some wooden furniture lying around so a proper comparison can be made.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 10:54
I thought I had already contacted you requesting that you come and show me how you could improve my systems? I am completely up for anything that works.

Over the years I have tried cables, mains and isolation tweaks. I'm not saying they didnt help however the issues I find in many systems cannot be fixed by minor adjustments. Typically there is excessive bass or missing bass at the listening position that no amount of tweaks will rectify.

I'm sure everyone here recognises the impact of standing waves and cancellations, however the only way I know of effectively reducing these problems is through room treatment and room correction. Both work and can be measured. Room correction is higher resolution but by itself certainly cannot fix all problems.

Marco
03-10-2009, 10:54
Hi Clive,


This thing about an £1,800 CDP not being that good or hi-end; on the one hand I’d expect a traditional manufacturer with distributors to price position their products carefully so probably it’s not as good as a £10,000 CDP. On the other hand we have products from the likes of Stan who’s DACs are far from disgraced in any company when fed with a decent digital data stream. Price is not always a good basis for comparison. There’s also a lot of higher priced digital gear that has been bettered by older generation predecessors.


I don't disagree (in fact I'm with you 100%), but that's not quite what I mean :)

The fact is, when it comes to current mainstream commercial CDPs, performance in almost every instance is governed by price. I've heard loads of £2k players, or just over that amount, of the same ilk as the Lyngdorf (Linn Majik, Bel Canto, Astin Trew, various Naim CDPs, etc) and none of them get near to what my judiciously modified Sony transport and DAC is capable of, sonically or musically.

Why? Because I've spent thousands of pounds ensuring that the Sony combo is filled with the best quality components available and tweaked to within an inch of its life - and when you listen, it shows! Aside from that, it's built like a brick shithouse and a statement of some of the very best Japanese CDP and DAC engineering ever produced. It is quite simply impossible for any mainstream commercial manufacturer to incorporate that level of quality of components (or build quality) into a CD player that retails for £1800. It wouldn't be financially viable.

I can't see any reason why the Lyngdorf (as good as it no doubt is in its own context) would any different, can you? It is what it is, as far as an £1800 CDP goes. That's the reality. I'm only mentioning the Lyngdorf because that's what Rob sells. I could use any number of other CDPs at that price point as an example.

Therefore, the point is, if you're into using truly top-notch source components (which I believe are critical to achieving a genuinely musical and believable sound with a hi-fi system), as well as obtaining the benefits of DSP room treatment, then Rob currently doesn't have the necessary products in his portfolio to facilitate this. Therefore, once optimal room correction has been achieved, the results obtained with his 2-channel audio systems will always ultimately be limited/governed by the quality of the source component.

Quite simply, if I were one of his customers, I wouldn't be satisfied with just what his room treatment does - I'd want to attend to every part of the system itself too, which is exactly what Steve is saying. It's simply not enough to install a 'so-so system' into a 'tarted-up' room. I'd want the best system I could afford in there as well - and optimally set-up (in terms of stands, cables and mains ancillaries), too!!

You make a good point about Stan and the Beresford DAC, but he's a (one man) small-scale specialist manufacturer who is able to 'race-tune' his products accordingly, and through working on much smaller profit margins and lower overheads, sell his his equipment for a fraction of what it would retail for if it were made by a mainstream commercial hi-fi manufacturer. Lyngdorf don't come into the same category as Beresford.

Unfortunately, in the mainstream commercial arena, products like Stan's are few and far between - everything is built to a price where maximum sound-per-pound value is usually not the highest thing on the agenda ;)

Marco.

Marco
03-10-2009, 10:55
Brilliant, let's do it.

Sounds good! PM me to arrange :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
03-10-2009, 11:07
Marco, I have his geographical telephone number in place of that horrible 0845 job on his website else I would have made a free call. Rob was kind enough to call me at his cost. He is a nice chap to be fair and open minded too, not at all like Ashley.

These things are better arranged on the phone I think.

Steve Toy
03-10-2009, 11:15
Marco you have a business card. Switch your phone on and save to contacts!

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 11:23
Hi Marco
I dont doubt that you CD player might sound better than anything you could buy at the price.
My honest opinion is that the weakest link is typically the room / speaker interface. I therefore think that by addressing the biggest problem I think you can get bigger improvements than changing form a CD player that scores 9/10 to one that scores 9.9/10.

Steve Toy
03-10-2009, 11:32
I think it is difficult to compare magnitude when the improvements are of a different nature.

Yours will be more dramatic for sure but I cannot live without the subtle nuances that going from 9/10 to 9.9/10 brings. These are the things that make you listen to more music, i.e. more often, for longer periods and to a greater range of genres.

Mr. C
03-10-2009, 11:34
Hi Marco

My honest opinion is that the weakest link is typically the room / speaker interface.


Due to the insistence of gecko I feel an AOS day down in Newbury would be in order.
Rob can explain how he spent so much of his own money to create such a all encompassing set of demonstration suites and what the motive was behind it. Why he uses just 4 companies to achieve his master piece of sonic and visual marvel that has Patrick Stewart juicing his silkies.
I am sure the AOS crew would not turn up such an oppotunity.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 11:36
I cant argue with you.

What I'm looking to do is deliver good sound consistantly whereas most people here are doing this as a hobby and will enjoy the process of upgrades and tweaks. I'm not knocking this approach however the results this process produces are very inconsistant.

There is a company called HAA (Home Acoustics Alliance) that train dealers on this and thier approach is similar to the one I have formed. It's about removing the big errors that trouble many systems and room treatment, room correction and the use of subs are all very effective in this area whereas better sources componenets for example can't help with boomines from room modes that anyone will be able to pick up on.

DaveK
03-10-2009, 11:37
Swapping out the lifestyle sideboards for decent supports will also bring enormous benefit to the subtleties of musical performances buried in recordings.



Hi Steve,
Now who could you possibly be talking about? :lolsign:
I'm on a journey at the moment - who knows where it will end? - meanwhile I'm enjoying the journey and learning - perhaps not taking the same route as you would take but ......
Apologies to the current thread contributors for this little hi-jack - just a semi-private joke between Steve and I.
Cheers,

Joe
03-10-2009, 11:39
I get round room artefacts by using headphones, meself, but would be interested to hear what others think about the DSP approach once they've heard it.

Steve Toy
03-10-2009, 11:44
Rob, there are two strategies for audio improvement:

1) The fixer approach.

2) The enhancer approach.

The first corrects things that are otherwise broken, the second builds on the first.

In the pursuit of excellence you need to consider both.

Mr. C
03-10-2009, 11:46
Rob,

Thought I had spotted something a little familiar on the site you are promoting
I believe you have absolutely nothing to do with Cabasse any more, why are you using their images?

http://www.cabasse.com/medias/5/6/8/133/137/1240988379.jpg

Marco
03-10-2009, 11:47
I dont doubt that you CD player might sound better than anything you could buy at the price.
My honest opinion is that the weakest link is typically the room / speaker interface. I therefore think that by addressing the biggest problem I think you can get bigger improvements than changing form a CD player that scores 9/10 to one that scores 9.9/10.

Yes I agree, Rob - in circumstances where the room/speaker interface is a major (or even reasonably significant) problem. There is no question that is the case.

However that's not necessarily the case when the room is already very good, 'naturally'. The fact is your room treatment can only fix what exists to be fixed. It will have limited effect if there's not much there to be fixed in the first place! Trust me, my system is very well set-up indeed and sympathetically integrated into my room. I know what I'm doing in this regard.

I consider that my room comes into the 'naturally good' category, as mentioned above (in terms of acoustics), so we'll see what you think when you come round ;)

Also, it will be interesting to see what sort of sonic signature the various electronics related to your DSP treatment imposes on my system, because there will be one - there always is. Even if you succeed to 'cure' any room problems, my verdict will be based on which balance of compromises is best - an 'ideal room' and perhaps a sound I don't particularly like, or a 'less than ideal room' and a sound that I do like...

The most musical sound (to my ears) is what I'm after, not necessarily the most 'technically correct' measurable one.

When were you thinking of coming round, incidentally? We'll have to get something put into the diary soon :)

Marco.

Joe
03-10-2009, 11:48
OOooooOOOOO!

Handbags at dawn!

Steve Toy
03-10-2009, 11:50
DaveK I was not refering to the positioning/supporting of speakers but electronics, notably CD players.

Macca
03-10-2009, 12:00
Yes I agree, Rob - in circumstances where the room/speaker interface is a major (or even reasonably significant) problem. There is no question this is the case.

However that's not necessarily the case when the room is already very good, 'naturally'. The fact is your room treatment can only fix what exists to be fixed. It will have limited effect if there's not much there to be fixed in the first place! Trust me, my system is very well set-up indeed and sympathetically integrated into my room. I know what I'm doing in this regard.

I consider that my room comes into the 'naturally good' category, as mentioned above, so we'll see what you think when you come round ;)

.

Marco

I notice from the photo on the DIY thread that your 'speakers are placed right back up against the wall in the corners, and not very far apart in what looks to be a smallish room. I do not have experience of the big Tannoy DCs but I would have thought that they would require more room to breathe? How far away from the 'speakers do you listen? Sorry, perhaps the photo is deceiving but this does not look very much like 'optimal' set up.

Martin

DaveK
03-10-2009, 12:12
DaveK I was not refering to the positioning/supporting of speakers but electronics, notably CD players.

Hi Steve (and Joe, if the 'handbag' post was aimed at us),
No problem - no offence taken on my part, I'm happy at the moment with the sound I'm getting - there's no doubt it could be improved but I'm going to 'make haste slowly' in that direction, not least for budget (and WAF ;) ) reasons. I continue to make small tweaks, some of which 'stick', some of which get reversed.
I take it from your comment that a firm/rigid base for a CD player is also important? - noted.
My earlier post was intended to raise a smile, not an argument :) .
I will continue to monitor this thread (but no more posting), as I am interested in Marco's findings - his ears should be well able to appreciate the effects of the trial.
Cheers,

Marco
03-10-2009, 12:26
Hi Martin,


I notice from the photo on the DIY thread that your 'speakers are placed right back up against the wall in the corners, and not very far apart in what looks to be a smallish room. I do not have experience of the big Tannoy DCs but I would have thought that they would require more room to breathe? How far away from the 'speakers do you listen? Sorry, perhaps the photo is deceiving but this does not look very much like 'optimal' set up.


You are indeed correct in reference to speaker positioning :)

However, the Lockwoods (using 15" Tannoy Monitor Gold drivers) do not appear to be fussy in terms of room positioning. There is no front or rear port, with there instead being a downward firing one on the bottom of the speakers. Therefore, the only critical area of positioning is getting them far enough off the floor to allow the ports to 'breathe', hence why I use the Mana Soundbases underneath. These do the job of elevating the speakers sufficiently off the floor and also provide a significant degree of isolation.

I've tried moving the speakers away from the corners and out into the room more and it sounds worse that way, so where you've seen them positioned in the photograph is where they sound best. As you can see, the Lockwoods also benefit from being sharply toed-in towards the listening position. Yes, the room is fairly small but due to the way I have my system (and speakers) set-up (using multiple layers of Mana supports to isolate the equipment from the effects of microphonic vibration) everything works extremely well! :cool:

Here are a few pics to remind people of what I'm talking about (Rob may find this interesting ;)):

My system:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6240/marcossystem.png (http://img260.imageshack.us/i/marcossystem.png/)

Tannoy Lockwoods Majors:

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/4867/lockwoodmajors025.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/lockwoodmajors025.jpg/)

My dedicated mains supply for the system (with all mains leads hard-wired into a separate CU):

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/866/behindmysystem.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/behindmysystem.png/)

Yes, I do go into things in a little detail :eyebrows:

Marco.

Stratmangler
03-10-2009, 12:38
I take it from your comment that a firm/rigid base for a CD player is also important? - noted.


Hi Dave

Don't know whether you saw this (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=67498&postcount=15) post, but it may be of some interest. Asda also do some chopping boards which work very well.

Chris:)

Joe
03-10-2009, 12:39
Hi Steve (and Joe, if the 'handbag' post was aimed at us),
,

No, it was aimed at someone else!

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 12:55
Hi Mr C

The Cabasse image you posted belongs to me and not Cabasse. On this occasion I won’t get stroppy about copy write but please check your facts before you use any more of my images.

I’ve looked at your site and you seem to have 3 nice looking rooms with good hifi equipment in them but I can’t see that you do anything different to any other dealer.
I’m sure you realise that in most rooms over half of what you hear at the listening position is reflections of the room, so can you let us know how you deal with their affect?

Typically it’s either ignored or used as a way of selling upgrades that really don’t affect room fundamentals, but I’m sure with all your experience you’ll have a far more effective approach that you can share with us.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 12:56
Marco - wow!

Ooof, those are some big speakers - can't wait to hear them!

Wibble, wobble, wibble!

Marco
03-10-2009, 13:06
LOL. I'm sure you'll find it a very pleasant, interesting, and illuminating experience... :eyebrows:

You'll also be fed and watered to a reasonable standard, too ;)

Marco.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 13:07
How big is the room?

How far do you sit away from the speakers?

Marco
03-10-2009, 13:22
15ft (long) x 11ft (wide), and I sit about 10ft away from the speakers. It's quite a small room, undoubtedly, especially considering the size of speakers in there, but trust me it works! ;)

You get a very expressive and 'live' sound with huge scale and effortless dynamics - and plenty of subtlety too when the music demands :smoking:

Marco.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 13:24
I'm sure it sounds awesome.

It looks like you have the worlds best headphones!

Marco
03-10-2009, 13:27
Hehehe... :lolsign:

You'll hear it for yourself when you come up. I guess that if there's 'less room' in the first place then there's less of it to 'correct' ;)

Marco.

Clive
03-10-2009, 13:37
Hehehe... :lolsign:

You'll hear it for yourself when you come up. I guess that if there's 'less room' in the first place then there's less of it to 'correct' ;)

Marco.
Given small dimensions there can be more to correct....except that you are probably listening to mainly directly radiated sound so there's less to correct. That's my take, I could be wrong!

Marco
03-10-2009, 13:44
I don't know how I'd put it, Clive, but it certainly sounds bloody good (as I'm sure those who've heard my system here would contend) :)

I tend to find most larger rooms disappointing in terms of the sound reproduced, as they generally lose the 'intimacy' I get with music played in my room. Bigger rooms are also much harder to drive, which brings its own set of problems.

I go to a fair few gigs and live music performances a year, so I know how instruments and voices sound in real life, and IMO, my system replicates them pretty accurately. I can also get some serious SPLs in there, and a real feeling of 'physicality' with appropriate music, due to the amount of air being shifted by the Lockwoods, but controlled beautifully by my (Copper valve amp, upstream) and all the Mana supports...

You'll have to come round sometime, perhaps after I've visited you when we do our T/T shenanigans? :cool:

Marco.

DaveK
03-10-2009, 13:44
Hi Dave

Don't know whether you saw this (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=67498&postcount=15) post, but it may be of some interest. Asda also do some chopping boards which work very well.

Chris:)

Hi Chris,
Hope the recuperation is still going well.
Yes, I did see your earlier post and meant to respond to it but events overtook me - sorry. At the moment my speakers are still on the 'sideboard' but inserted between speaker base and 'sideboard' are 3 (for each speaker) small solid oak B&Q kitchen cupboard door knobs (no glue etc., just loose). I am happy with the improved sound this gives and they haven't attracted any adverse WAF :lol: .
With regards to the 'sideboard' shelving, I have a sheet of marble, bought from Tesco I think as a pastry making aid, which I intend to cover with oak veneer with the plan of using it as a shelf for supporting my Techie. If it improves things I'll look to do the same under the CD player.
Cheers,

Mr. C
03-10-2009, 13:47
Hi Mr C

The Cabasse image you posted belongs to me and not Cabasse. On this occasion I won’t get stroppy about copy write but please check your facts before you use any more of my images.

I’ve looked at your site and you seem to have 3 nice looking rooms with good hifi equipment in them but I can’t see that you do anything different to any other dealer.
I’m sure you realise that in most rooms over half of what you hear at the listening position is reflections of the room, so can you let us know how you deal with their affect?

Typically it’s either ignored or used as a way of selling upgrades that really don’t affect room fundamentals, but I’m sure with all your experience you’ll have a far more effective approach that you can share with us.


Rob,

The image was lifted from Cabasse's website and I am pretty sure they have no issue with using it as their products are in the image and photography was conducted for them.
The photographs of our rooms are for web image purposes, the real layout and sound dispersal characteristics are quite different in the 'flesh'.
We use a mixture of traditional and not so traditional methods to obtain the sound which is correct for individual clients choices.
Which works very well for the customers and ourselves.
While I am sure you manage to produce an impressive sound that many a footballer and the odd noted celebrate may feel is wow, due to them not being able to compare something of a similar ilk in both equipment and price terms. (Age old problem). I wonder if they had the choice of three similar facilities each taking a different approach, I wonder if the quotes would be the same. (being fair the same could be said for any hifi dealer)

We concentrate on supplying long term listening and viewing pleasure for those who enjoy music and movies on a very regular basis, rather than 'giving it large' on a forum that is frequented by mostly hard bitten good quality DIY folk who understand what they wish for in a sound and actively pursue it.
I am sure you all of the funds you personally have poured into this project will pay off, I wish you luck on your chosen path to enlightening the public.
I am sure we will bump into each other again like we did at Bristol this year

Just to add Rob, I do fully understand room acoustics and speaker interaction, (we own a recording studio) and I will agree the biggest issue is room/speaker interaction, it is not the holy grail of realistic music replay, it is an important part of the jigsaw puzzle, but a piece none the less. When clients have been shown fully eq and dsp systems, the reaction has been less than favorable for their own individual reasons, what ever they maybe.
Horses for coarses, nothing more nothing less

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 13:57
Clive - I'd tend to agree with you. I think they'll bit a lot less reflected sound than usual so any correction would be more subtly than usual. Given that its a 15 foot long room being listened to from 10 foot away I can see there are likely to be some significant peaks and troughs in the bass which I think the correction will really help with.

I was in a much wider room yesterday which was a similar length and the most obvious effect of the correction was in the restoring of the bass. This is one of the biggest problems with room correction - its affects are very different from room to room that you have to of heard it in several different rooms before you start to "get it".

Marco
03-10-2009, 14:02
Given that its a 15 foot long room being listened to from 10 foot away I can see there are likely to be some significant peaks and troughs in the bass which I think the correction will really help with.


That'll be interesting to analyse. Certainly, subjectively, there appears to be no issues with bass reproduction; in fact the sheer scale, visceral impact, tightness, tunefulness, and depth of the bass is one of the most pleasing aspects of the way my system reproduces music :)

It's all a learning curve, though. I suspect that when you come to visit, it'll be as big a one for you as it will be for me ;)

Marco.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 14:09
Mr C

The images were commissioned by me and are my property so should not be being used by anyone other than me unless they are paying me for the privilege.

I have dealt with a few footballers over the years but I tend to deal more with people in the music, film or TV industry, however unlike you I don’t regard wealthy people as being stupid or less discerning than any others.

Because of our connection with Steinway, many of the clients we now deal with also own and play the piano. As such I do regard these individuals as far more discerning than many hifi purchasers and regard their comments about the systems we sell being indistinguishable from the live instrument as being more valid.

Can you share the “traditional” and “not so traditional methods” you use to negate the huge impact rooms have?

Marco
03-10-2009, 14:14
Because of our connection with Steinway, many of the clients we now deal with also own and play the piano. As such I do regard these individuals as far more discerning than many hifi purchasers and regard their comments about the systems we sell being indistinguishable from the live instrument as being more valid.


Well I guess that applies to piano-based music, but not necessarily to anything else! ;)

I also know plenty of "hifi purchasers" who play their own instruments and are thus able to judge how 'accurately' or not their systems replicate them.

Marco.

Rob Sinden
03-10-2009, 14:33
True, but I hope you'd agree that any system that can faithfully reproduce a piano its a pretty good starting point for a hifi?

tubehunter
03-10-2009, 14:43
Quote:
"Bigger rooms are also much harder to drive, which brings its own set of problems"

What does this mean?

Marco
03-10-2009, 14:44
True, but I hope you'd agree that any system that can faithfully reproduce a piano its a pretty good starting point for a hifi?


Absolutely, Rob, but I don't necessarily buy the notion that 'experts' in the music industry (in any particular capacity) know what constitutes as a good sound any more than, say, some people on this forum, whose ears I would trust long before those of any so-called 'expert' :)

I think this is a trap that a few of you chaps fall into. Ashley James of AVI holds similar views, and IMO, is equally a little mistaken in that regard.

Knowing effectively what constitutes as a realistic, believable, and musical sound from a hi-fi system involves the use of many different skills and experience, not necessarily always possessed by the 'experts' you mention. As usual, things are rarely quite as simple as they may seem. The trouble is you appear to think in shades of black & white, where often a touch of grey is needed - don't worry you're not alone! ;)

Marco.

Marco
03-10-2009, 14:48
Hi Dunc,


Quote:
"Bigger rooms are also much harder to drive, which brings its own set of problems"

What does this mean?

Basically, often harder to fill convincingly with music :)

As the sound disperses more easily inside a bigger room, often some of the music's impact is lost, as the 'concentration' of sound as a whole is diluted/diminished. It's thus sometimes harder to find the 'sweet spot' where, sonically, everything clicks into place. It's not always like that, though. There are many different variables which come into the equation.

I just enjoy the intimacy and 'physicality' of presentation large speakers give in a smallish room, providing everything has been made to perform optimally and synergistically.

Marco.

DSJR
03-10-2009, 15:49
Assuming that I had this level of dosh to feed my hobby, with the experiences I have, I'd first try to sort the room out, either by false walls (with sound-proofing in between the layers), bass-trap panels and ALSO with the help of a qualified acoustician such as Nick Whitaker (IIRC), whom ATC used for their fussier domestic clients (and most pro ones who were setting up studio control rooms). The end result would cost a few grand (much less than £10K+) and wouldn't end up with an anechoic chamber. The room would be measured and "mapped" and "remedials" would be directed to the main problems, whilst retaining some controlled reflections.

I had a dem of known and unkown speakers in a room thus treated and was surprised how little difference the speakers made once the room was sorted. The speakers played in the more live part of the room (as musicians do) and we listened in the more "dead" part as we do in the audience. The cheapest speakers sounded amazing and the bigger ones sounded, well, bigger......

Now, I'm not saying that ever HiFi owner needs to go to great lengths to sort the room, but I do feel that some room sorting should come first, so that the digital jiggery-pokery can fine-tune, rather than attempt to cure on its own, any further problems...

hifi_dave
03-10-2009, 15:59
All of us are listening to real and accurate sounds all day and are qualified to judge if our systems are able to reproduce them or not. I've just returned from the local town where I was listening to a guitar and harmonica being played by a couple in the street. I know what that sounds like and know how well a system can reproduce that. My Grandson is banging his little cymbals together and I know what that sounds like. I can hear voices, kettles, cars, the wind, all sorts of sounds and noises and from these I can judge how well or not a system is doing.

I have played drums and harmonica in the past, last week I heard a piano, I can't play one but I know what it sounds like. You don't need to be Jools Holland to judge a hi-fi system.:scratch:

Varun
03-10-2009, 16:04
Marco,

I think we need to clarfiy this sweeping claim made by Rob that professional musicians can appreciate the sound of the original instrument-absolute hogwash.

Most do not care-do not have time and return to the piano to try out their ideas. Any ordinary system would do for them.

They are the least discerning when it comes to distinguishing what is good sound reproduction as an audiophile does- one wirh a long experience and wide taste. Mind you looking at the list provide on the "abstract" section-there would be very few audiophiles with a wide tatse.

In other words-they are probably the most gullible and easily persuaded.

Marco
03-10-2009, 16:07
I was just trying to be a bit more polite about it than you chaps :eyebrows:

Rob, I'm only kidding! ;)

Marco.

Varun
03-10-2009, 16:16
Also Marco,

Do not agree with small rooms being better- speak from personal experience. Anything less than 18x12 in my opinion will not be able to take a good sized speaker- not even the 803s. Anthing smaller and I would go for book shelf size. Partly because good imaging does require the speakers are wide apart and away from walls in relation to yor listening distance.

Marco
03-10-2009, 16:22
Hi Varun,

I never said that small rooms are always better (what does "better" mean, universally, anyway?); merely that, in my experience, I've generally heard more convincingly musical results from systems in small to medium-sized rooms than I have from ones in really large rooms.

I do think that in general it's easier to get a good sound in a smaller room though, than a much bigger room, for reasons outlined in my earlier post to Duncan (Tubehunter). See post #206.

Some of the rooms where systems were being demonstrated in the recent hi-fi show at Whittlebury Hall were a case in point.

Marco.

hifi_dave
03-10-2009, 16:32
Also Marco,

Do not agree with small rooms being better- speak from personal experience. Anything less than 18x12 in my opinion will not be able to take a good sized speaker- not even the 803s. Anthing smaller and I would go for book shelf size. Partly because good imaging does require the speakers are wide apart and away from walls in relation to yor listening distance.

Ah Varun,
A couple of the most memorable systems I have heard have been in very small rooms. Not because there was no choice but because the customers chose to use their systems in this way.

One of my regular good customers now uses a pair of Tannoy Canterbury in a room which is approx 12 x 11 ft. He has spent a lot of time (not money) on treatment including home made absorbent panels and diffusers plus a wall to wall CD rack which doubles as a diffuser. From his seat, you can almost touch the Tannoy's but even so the sound is wonderful.

I suppose the sound has no time to splash around the walls before it reaches your ears and so it is tight, punchy, dynamic, clean and extremely communicative. As for imaging, it is precise and tactile. Bass is extended and solid.

I think that with a bit of knowledge and care you don't 'need' a large room.

Varun
03-10-2009, 16:34
As always, we may be saying the same thing but appearing to disagree. The demo rooms in the Hi Fi shows more often than not are a lost cause. Beyond that -yes there could be any number of variables-such as amount of glass, the height of the ceiling-the position of the doors and windows and above all the placing of the central heating radiators. All these dictate where the speakers are to be positioned and the rest of the equipment.

The choices in the end shrink rapidly.

Varun
03-10-2009, 16:39
Oh well Dave,

Personal idiosyncracies then I suppose. I will feel 'boxed in' or croweded in as I listen to classical music a lot.

The point is that I will be forced to make that choice on retirement-everything will be downsized.

Marco
03-10-2009, 16:44
Hi Dave,


Ah Varun,
A couple of the most memorable systems I have heard have been in very small rooms. Not because there was no choice but because the customers chose to use their systems in this way.

One of my regular good customers now uses a pair of Tannoy Canterbury in a room which is approx 12 x 11 ft. He has spent a lot of time (not money) on treatment including home made absorbent panels and diffusers plus a wall to wall CD rack which doubles as a diffuser. From his seat, you can almost touch the Tannoy's but even so the sound is wonderful.

I suppose the sound has no time to splash around the walls before it reaches your ears and so it is tight, punchy, dynamic, clean and extremely communicative. As for imaging, it is precise and tactile. Bass is extended and solid.

I think that with a bit of knowledge and care you don't 'need' a large room.

That sounds very similar to the kind of set-up I've got and the results I enjoy, so you can perhaps imagine the type of sound I'm getting in my room ;)

I completely concur with your observations, especially the bits I've highlighted!

It's amazing how little space large Tannoys need to perform exceptionally well.

Marco.

P.S Varun, I rarely listen to classical music - not that I don't like some of it, though.

Varun
03-10-2009, 16:58
Thanks Marco,

The listenign experience of Dave's client and yours has also to coincide with the the kind of music which is chosen. The Tannoy's appear to have a very different ability to blend into a room it seems. The Canterrburys unless rehoused won't be that huge? am I right.

There are pop/rock records which approach symphonic proportions- so in order to get an idea-I need instruction.

It would be nice to know how these tracks sound in your system Marco:

1: shine on you crazy diamond.
2: Bohemian Rhapsody.
3: Money for nothing.

Marco
03-10-2009, 17:04
Hi Varun,

No, Canterburys are as big as my Lockwoods! The other thing about Tannoys is that the dual-concentric drivers give superb time-alignment and they also image extremely well, even when placed fairly close together and used in a small room.

I've got all the tracks you mention, but I fail to see how me subjectively describing how they sound is likely to give you sufficient insight into how well my speakers work in the room...

What specific information are you looking for and I'll see if I can help :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
03-10-2009, 17:24
A new preamp for your digital front end and that's nirvana for the Marco boy. You will just need some pish catchers for chillin' out.

Marco
03-10-2009, 17:34
LOL... Do these meet with your approval? I've already got you a pair for Christmas.

They have a nice raised lip at the front to catch any 'dewdrops' which sometimes escape, post-shiggle prior to zip-up, if you get me ;)

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3623/pishcatchers.png (http://img142.imageshack.us/i/pishcatchers.png/)

Marco.

P.S Don't forget that the Croft is now sounding better than you've ever heard it.

Varun
03-10-2009, 17:35
Hi Marco,

Those tracks have a massive wall of sound and also a certain depth - their scale is impressive. If the Tannoys achieve it in a small room then I would say that there is no speaker to match- no competetion.

I say this because the images of the Aspara speakers that Guy from Pure Sound placed- showed them well into the room and I presume a large room too. That is the kind of space I am talking of and which I good sized speaker will need.

It seems to me from what you and Dave are saying that if I am going to downsize-then go Tannoy is inevitable.

pure sound
03-10-2009, 17:47
The room we were in at the recent show was actually much too large and could have done with some extensive treatment. Reverberation came rolling across with some considerable delay which did upset some tracks where an obvious acoustic had already been recorded. I'm not sure I'd have liked to try correcting this with DSP though.

The Aspara's (as with many speakers using larger drivers) do seem very well behaved in surprisingly small rooms. It's often speakers with multiple 5 or 6.5" drivers that seem to have more difficulty in a confined space.

Steve Toy
03-10-2009, 17:53
They aint pish catchers. It all runs off. Look!

Marco
03-10-2009, 17:53
Hi Varun,

Yep, the Asparas were in a much bigger room than my Tannoys are in - no question; however they are also a different design. I've no idea how they would work (or not) in my room.

One thing is worth pointing out, though - as much as I loved the Asparas (and you know how impressed I was with them!), the overall sound, although very 'believable' and musical, lacked the sheer sense of scale, gravitas, effortless 'flow' and intimacy that I achieve with the Lockwoods in my room.

I suspect that a lot of that was down to the fact that the Asparas had a much bigger space to fill, and so some of the effects I'm describing would have been rather more diluted than when experienced in a more confined space. This is one of the reasons why I prefer a smaller room, providing that it has excellent natural acoustics and no nasty 'room modes'.

However, one thing I'm certain beyond question is that, given the above circumstances, large Tannoys work extremely well in a smallish room. My mate Ian Walker, who posts here, uses his Canterburys in a room only slightly bigger than mine (I think it's the same length but slightly wider), again to very impressive effect!

I've also heard the same effect in similar rooms belonging to others with GRFs, etc :)


It's often speakers with multiple 5 or 6.5" drivers that seem to have more difficulty in a confined space.

Quite true, Guy. That's also precisely my experience, particularly when they're front or rear ported. As an aside, I suspect that the Heco Statements would struggle to work properly in a small room more than the Asparas.

What do you think?

Marco.

P.S Steve, photograph yours then and show us the real McCoy!

Steve Toy
03-10-2009, 17:59
I could also show a pic of multiple 6" drivers working well in a small room. The irony of where they came from ;)

John
03-10-2009, 18:12
Varun
If you thinking about getting new speakers be sure to try them out in your room first even if you have to pay the dealer something towards the travel
Speakers and how they interact with the room have a huge effect
Its worth taking your time to get it right

Varun
03-10-2009, 18:13
OK chaps

For the benefit of the forum,

Can we have the measurements of an "IDEAL Room please". Are we going for 16x14 or 14x12? wider the better -and not symmetrical. The problem with demo rooms is that they are "EMPTY"- Unfurnished.

Varun
03-10-2009, 18:22
Hi John,

Was eminently easy in NZ-the dealer was delighted to help. No cost attached. I have had no trouble with either my SD Acoustics or the B&W in rooms of various sizes either in NZ or here in UK on my return. Reflection becomes a problem if the sound is pushed beyond a certain limit. I see no reason to change the B&Ws- in fact no need to change anything-except the cartridge needs re-doing.

My replacement for the SDs was determined by what was available and what I could afford. First tried were a pair of Thiel- and I did not like their sound. Second was B&W 804- too small for my room- and then 803. Physically 802s would have taken too much room besides I could not afford them.

John
03-10-2009, 18:22
Think no ideal measurement its about making your system work Sorry I know that does not help

John
03-10-2009, 18:25
Yes some British dealers just let you get on with it without any help

pure sound
03-10-2009, 18:28
I could also show a pic of multiple 6" drivers working well in a small room. The irony of where they came from ;)

:lolsign:

I didn't say it was always the case, just that it was often a problem ;)

Marco
03-10-2009, 18:31
Have you heard Steve's system, Guy?

Marco.

pure sound
03-10-2009, 18:35
No, I haven't. I'm familiar with the speakers of course, but I haven't heard the whole thing together as it works in his room.

Varun
03-10-2009, 18:43
Big speakers in small rooms-I bet would cause equal degree of problem. There is nothing new about what we are discussing and no easy "READY" answers.

Speakers against the walls! in the corners!! no imaging problem!!! no bass boost!!!! marvellous. No wife would ever complain. Speaker design would stop becoming a problem.

Marco
03-10-2009, 18:58
Indeed. One has to analyse each situation on an individual basis with the speakers and room concerned - there are no absolutes here, the same as there aren't any in every other area of hi-fi! ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
03-10-2009, 19:53
hi all,
i have to agree with marco, and ian's findings with big tannoys, i purchased my tannoy glenairs back in june and when they arived i was a bit sceptical to say the least when i positioned them in my listening room for the first time, they were huge compared to any speaker i had in there in the past, but after seeming to take a good while to break in,:scratch: they now perform exceptionaly well in that room, it realy is incredible how such a large speaker [15"drivers ] can work in such confined spaces without much of a fuss with positioning too!
i have been converted.
regards,anthony,TD...

hifi_dave
03-10-2009, 20:40
I've always found far less trouble with big speakers producing real bass than small speakers attempting bass.:scratch:

Marco
03-10-2009, 20:41
Yay - the Tannoyistas are taking over da house!! :gig:

Marco.

John
03-10-2009, 21:03
Yes nothing like 2 x 15" drivers pumping out bass except perhaps 4 x 15" drivers

Marco
03-10-2009, 21:05
LOL. We don't do 'compact & bijou' here, do we? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ian Walker
03-10-2009, 21:09
"Quote i have been converted Quote".
PHEW! thank "evans" for that boyo!
Had me worried for a while after recomending them to you...glad you like em matey:)

hifi_dave
03-10-2009, 21:26
LOL. We don't do 'compact & bijou' here, do we? :eyebrows:

Marco.

I got my Harbeth 40.1's up and running today. They're a bit on the 'lumpy' side, like two Cherry veneered fridge freezers.:lolsign:

anthonyTD
03-10-2009, 21:31
I got my Harbeth 40.1's up and running today. They're a bit on the 'lumpy' side, like two Cherry veneered fridge freezers.:lolsign:
:lol::gig:
A...

anthonyTD
03-10-2009, 21:33
"Quote i have been converted Quote".
PHEW! thank "evans" for that boyo!
Had me worried for a while after recomending them to you...glad you like em matey:)
aye,
and less of the evans, it brings back painfull memories!:lolsign:
A...

alfie2902
03-10-2009, 21:39
I've also heard some big 15" tannoys in a small room & they produced one of the best sounds I think I have ever heard. I love their effortless presentation!

Back to acoustics though, If anyone wants to look into RTA's there is some free software to be found here http://www.e.kth.se/~johk/jdft/ & suitable mic can be found here http://www.vikash.info/audio/measurement_mic/ this would give the basics for very little outlay. The software does take some getting your head around though tbh.

Also some simple maths can be helpful in working out the axial resonance modes for your room. Knowing the frequencies of these axial modes will provide valuable information about how your system and room are interacting, specifically on bass notes in the under-300 Hz range.

The formula for finding axial room resonance modes:

F = 1130 divided by 2 x D

Where F = frequency of the resonance mode (Hz)
1130 = speed of sound (1130 fps)
D = distance between 2 parallel walls (in Feet)

If we take Marco's room as an example L 15' x W 11' x H ?

F = 1130 / 2 x 15 = 1130 / 30 = 38Hz (37.6 rounded up)

So, the main mode for the length axis of the room falls at 38 Hz (it's actually 37.6, but rounded to the nearest whole number). This means that although you'll still be able to hear deep bass sounds from your speakers below 38 Hz, your room cannot provide any reinforcement of frequencies much below 38 Hz.

In addition to this fundamental mode at 38 Hz, there will be other weaker modes at multiples of the fundamental mode (2x38, 3x38, 4x38, etc...). So, along with the first mode at 38 Hz, there will be other resonance modes at 76 Hz, 114 Hz, 152 Hz, etc....

using the 11-foot width into the formula gives us a fundamental mode at 51 Hz (51.36Hz), with multiples at 102 Hz, 153 Hz, 204 Hz, etc.

If the height H was known we could use the formula to work out the fundamental mode & the other resonance modes etc....

Frequencies around 152-153 Hz may well receive added emphasis as they are resonance modes to both Length & Width, causing even more sound colouration. Any other modes matching up from the height H which we don't have would also add to this colouration!

Not sure this will be of much help anyone, but shows how to work out some room basics.

Marco
03-10-2009, 21:39
I got my Harbeth 40.1's up and running today. They're a bit on the 'lumpy' side, like two Cherry veneered fridge freezers.:lolsign:

LOL... As long as they don't sound lumpy! What stands you got 'em on? I've got a pair of some very nice Mana ones available that my SP100s used to sit on ;)

Marco.

hifi_dave
03-10-2009, 21:49
They don't sound one bit 'lumpy', just good, strong, clean, tight, deep bass. I was a bit worried before they turned up because there is a thread on the Harbeth Forum with one chap moaning about the bass quality. My room isn't particularly large but I needn't have concerned myself as they are as sweet as a nut.

Stands are from Something Solid - light, open, steel frames made to order. Unfortunately, I got the height wrong by about three inches and now have to sit on an extra cushion. Bloody metric.:doh:

Marco
03-10-2009, 21:51
Hi Alfie,

Very interesting :)

I suppose the most important thing is how it actually sounds when the sort of music I like listening to is being played. Like I said to Rob earlier, subjectively there doesn't appear to be much lacking, 'missing' or over-prominent at any part of the frequency range...

That may not be the case, though; however I suppose if you can't hear what's 'wrong', why worry? I'm always up for learning about these things, though!

The other dimension you need is approx 8ft, in terms of the height. See what measurements you can come up with now with having the final piece of the jigsaw in place, as it were :cool:

The other significant thing about my room is that it's an odd shape (being in an old house) - i.e. the room is very far from being a 'rectangular box'. There are loads of angles and oak beams breaking up standing waves, which I'm sure would account for why the acoustics appear to be pretty good. The walls are also seriously thick, too (I mean ridiculously so) - none of yer modern 'spit through' Wimpey bollocks here!

Marco.

Marco
03-10-2009, 21:59
They don't sound one bit 'lumpy', just good, strong, clean, tight, deep bass. I was a bit worried before they turned up because there is a thread on the Harbeth Forum with one chap moaning about the bass quality. My room isn't particularly large but I needn't have concerned myself as they are as sweet as a nut.

Stands are from Something Solid - light, open, steel frames made to order. Unfortunately, I got the height wrong by about three inches and now have to sit on an extra cushion. Bloody metric.:doh:

Nice one, Dave. I'd love to come and hear them sometime :)

I know the Something Solid stands - they work very well with Harbeths. It's what Signals in Ipswich always used to use with them.

Marco.

Clive
03-10-2009, 22:00
What I found when getting to understand a little about this stuff is that some records I thought were incredible actually were artificially pumped up and other records that didn't sound so good were missing some frequencies. I now have a far more balanced sound with less variation between records. I'd lived with uneven bass for years and years, I don't really want to use the word accurate but I'd say what I have now is more faithful to the original recording and my record collection is more consistently good sounding now. With a very few records that had HUGE bass it turns out the system was lying to me, their bass is only Huge. Their are still records with HUGE bass because that's how they are recorded, eg Prodigy / Fat of the Land.

BTW Marco, you may not have suckouts, just peaks. Nothing personal :)