View Full Version : Amazon's CDR disservice...!
Has anyone else out there used or seen this option when buying CDs from Amazon, or any other music store for that matter?
I purchased this CD from Amazon...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperial-Wax-Solvent-Fall/dp/B00DHSLUGK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1441641188&sr=1-1&keywords=imperial+wax+solvent
...towards the bottom of the main listing
"CD-R Note: This product is manufactured on demand when ordered from Amazon.co.uk. [Learn more]"
The learn more option reveals...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=201187910&pop-up=1
...the CD in question has arrived! (this is cut from my review) :steam:
"This is not a review of the Fall's album, but a review of Amazon's CDR, burned on demand service...or rather disservice!
I buy my music on CD and rip it to FLAC to stream from a central server, I've ripped over 3K CDs successfully using dBPoweramp's Accurate Rip capability...
This is not genuine, the CD rips with thousands of FRAME errors per track, which means that some form of rip protection has been added to the disk. A quick copy to a blank disk, and it rips happily, however the CRC (checksum digit values) do not match the Accurate rip values in dBpoweramp's repository...
I will not buy another CDR from Amazon, I can't guarantee that this is even from the original CD, it has all the characteristics of an MP3 burned as a CD...absolutely disgraceful!!!"
...OK there'll be a few out there who question the need for the Fall in full CD definition, but I disagree, they need all the help they can get ;)
I'm sure they'll start doing this for a lot of other err... less commercial acts...:(
Ouch - I guess it pays read the small print :(
I shall add that to my growing bunch of reasons not to shop there ....
I have never noticed it and if they ever sent me one it would be winging its way back pronto. As said above if this is the route the music industry is taking then I guess then it is going to come a cropper.
I did read the small print...but at the time there were no other alternatives on Amazon, and I needed to tip my basket over the new £20 free postage margin (another downward turn)...On reflection the text 'All products are manufactured from original source materials.'...is open to liberal interpretation :doh:
Given we have a large organisation with an entire catalog of MP3s to hand, who don't offer WAVs or FLAC for sale, why would they keep an expensive copy of full resolution files...perhaps I'm too cynical ;)
TBH it doesn't sound too bad...but that's more to do with the content :)
However it's going back for a refund...I may forget to delete the rip :cool:
Aparently they have been doing it in the US for some years. It is on music they have copies of but are not commercially available on cd.
Spectral Morn
07-09-2015, 20:39
:eek: wow that's crazy and I am sure its a trading standards issue, as the copy is not the same as the original.
Regards Neil
Stratmangler
07-09-2015, 20:41
You can get the CD or vinyl on Discogs http://www.discogs.com/sell/release/1336833?ev=rb
It's also available on Tidal.
Aparently they have been doing it in the US for some years. It is on music they have copies of but are not commercially available on cd.
But what is the 'quality' of the copy...? :eyebrows:
But what is the 'quality' of the copy...? :eyebrows:
I would imagine it would be reconstituted 320 kb tbh. think thats is/was the level they store, not ideal but if its not available elsewhere then it will be better than nowt. Not my cup of tea but I have for instance bought rare dvd films that are burnt copies done legitimately as they were not available otherwise.
I would imagine it would be reconstituted 320 kb tbh. think thats is/was the level they store, not ideal but if its not available elsewhere then it will be better than nowt. Not my cup of tea but I have for instance bought rare dvd films that are burnt copies done legitimately as they were not available otherwise.
My guess too...I'll not be using this facility in the future
I once ordered a CD-R from US Amazon of an album that I had been trying to get hold of for a while, when it arrived it had obviously been copied very badly vinyl with pops, clicks and distortion. I could have bought the LP cheaply and done a better job myself and used a click removal program to make it less noisy as well for far less than I was charged.
I did get a refund eventually but I will not order a CD-R from Amazon again.
Starterman
08-09-2015, 08:44
Surely Amazon's title is misrepresentation:
"Imperial Wax Solvent
The Fall Format: Audio CD "
Surely Amazon's title is misrepresentation:
"Imperial Wax Solvent
The Fall Format: Audio CD "
It's hard to argue against it being an 'Audio CD', as it is indeed a CD that contains audio...and can be played in a CD player
It's the fact that it is, in all probability, burned from an MP3 source that's the misrepresentation...if it had been burned from WAV or FLAC it wouldn't have failed the dBpoweranp Accurate rip check, certainly not for all tracks...:scratch:
To add insult to injury they even added rip protect to the burn...:doh:
These will eventually make their way into the SH market...:(
You can get the CD or vinyl on Discogs http://www.discogs.com/sell/release/1336833?ev=rb
It's also available on Tidal.
Cheers for the nod Chris, they're not exactly giving it away at the moment...;)
Have returned the CD-R version, and bought a second hand CD version from the market place instead, I've had no problems with SH disks from amazon...yet! :eyebrows:
Theadmans
08-09-2015, 17:41
This CD-R malarkey is very bad.
Have to say I am happier every day that I have retained my CD collection (despite having ripped the 5000 odd titles to Flac).
I buy a lot of secondhand stuff from the market place sellers on Amazon and have not had a CD-R yet but I have noticed an upward trend in CD prices lately. The days of 1p rare mint titles on Zoverstocks seem to be over - the rarer stuff is more pricey these days.
The only CD-R I ever got was in the Limited 10 x 7" Vinyl +- Single Joy Division set (now listing from £179 to 2 Grand !!! on Discogs). This CD-R seemed glitchy when burning so I tracked the Warners Product Manager responsible down and complained - he emailed me the flacs to burn my own copy !!
Us-&-Them
08-09-2015, 23:44
This CD-R malarkey is very bad.
Have to say I am happier every day that I have retained my CD collection (despite having ripped the 5000 odd titles to Flac).
I buy a lot of secondhand stuff from the market place sellers on Amazon and have not had a CD-R yet but I have noticed an upward trend in CD prices lately. The days of 1p rare mint titles on Zoverstocks seem to be over - the rarer stuff is more pricey these days.
I have to say I agree with you about keeping a CD collection but, for different reasons. I've noticed this amazing crap being pedaled around lately by the corporates and the foghorns who work for them and, that crap is this - DISC ROT !!!!!!
I remember the adverts for Scotch (3M) tapes that advertised tapes as "recorded for life." I remember the same being said for discs "stored forever." Its amazing now you can copy (and back up your own genuine) CD because its safer (and cheaper) to take a copy CD and play it in the car than risk taking your genuine CD and risk it being in the car and (maybe) getting stolen (if the car got broken into).
If I'd have then sold my originals and a couple of years down the line found that my copies started to jump and skip whilst playing for no apparent reason, I'd have been well hacked off. Well its true, some of mine are doing this and its down to this new phenomenon of so-called "disc rot." Isn't it amazing that its only the recent CDr's that are doing it................. yet my old dark blue Verbatim CDr's from when CDr's first came onto the market are still perfect and play perfect everytime!!! They dont seem to suffer this amazing new condition of "disc rot."
I'd say its another case of "if we make/build em to last, we'll go bust cos' we'll never sell many more as they last forever" syndrome or, just watch the documentary called "the men who make us spend." So, its a good job that I kept my original (silver) CD's cos' I know I've got a fairly robust permanent copy :) Maybe I could of ripped my CD's to FLAC and stored them on my computer............. well, lets think about that for a minute; I've got a computer made very late 80's/early 90's; its a 486 DX4 100 and the hard drive in that still works and loads up Win 95 but, today, your lucky if a hard drive (storage drive) would last more than 5 years or so, if I'd ripped CD's to FLAC, I may not have been able to even access them now due to the new dreaded symptom of hard drive rot (failure) :lol:
Come to think of it, even some of my old Scotch tapes from the 80's are still perfectly OK and watchable........ hhmm, think about it !!!! In fact, most of my cassette tapes from the 70's onwards are still perfect........ hmm :hmm::hmm: What was that documentary called again - "The Men Who Made Us Spend." Its says and shows everything !!! :bulb:
KEEP YOUR ORIGINALS - THAT'S MY ADVICE
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD :steam:
I have to say I agree with you about keeping a CD collection but, for different reasons. I've noticed this amazing crap being pedaled around lately by the corporates and the foghorns who work for them and, that crap is this - DISC ROT !!!!!!
Yep - discovered that some years back when disc media I had recorded at home became unplayable within a couple of years but was brought home to me today when I spent fruitless hours trying to recover the 500gb 'Time Machine' HDD from my daughter's laptop that had suddenly decided not to bother any more; I have lost count of the number of drive failures I have experienced since 'going digital'. I have books full of negatives going back to the late '60s - all still printable and virtually untouched by the passing of time bar the dust that has crept in.... vinyl may suffer some snap crackle and pop over time but is still eminently listenable many decades after it was pressed.
Even worse is the archive situation re. video tape from the golden age of ENG - decades of historic moments are gradually being eroded by the magnetic powers that be ... all that glitters is certainly not gold in the age of magnetic and digital storage media :(
Rothchild
09-09-2015, 06:35
Digital data does not exist unless it exists in two separate physical locations (preferably in at least two difference media formats).
Backing up CD's is of dubious legality in the UK (especially if you're format shifting in the process) also if you sell or dispose of the original you should discard the copy too (as the original is the 'licence key').
Not right, but the way it is.
It would be interesting to know what arrangements Amazon has with the licence holders for their CDR business, seems dodgy to me, do you also get photocopies of the artwork?
Spectral Morn
09-09-2015, 07:21
Digital data does not exist unless it exists in two separate physical locations (preferably in at least two difference media formats).
Backing up CD's is of dubious legality in the UK (especially if you're format shifting in the process) also if you sell or dispose of the original you should discard the copy too (as the original is the 'licence key').
Not right, but the way it is.
It would be interesting to know what arrangements Amazon has with the licence holders for their CDR business, seems dodgy to me, do you also get photocopies of the artwork?
Yes I wonder too if The Fall, their record label and management will get paid, and how they feel about Amazon flogging poor quality versions of their music.
Regards Neil
Yes I wonder too if The Fall, their record label and management will get paid, and how they feel about Amazon flogging poor quality versions of their music.
Regards Neil
The genuine S/H CD version of Imperial Wax Solvent has arrived, and the audio quality difference is quite apparent, the CD version reveals that it's pretty well produced...for a Fall album ;) (actually they've been pretty good for a while)
All CD tracks passed the accurate rip CRC test (whilst the CDR failed all), FYI both were identified as having the same unique product code!!! (surely that can't be legal)
The below attachments are the dbpoweramp audio properties of a corresponding track from each album, hopefully the file resolution will be good enough to read.
The track lengths differ, the original file sizes differ, and the resulting FLAC sizes differ even more (both ripped at level 5)...it's interesting to note that the FLAC compression ratio is significantly better for the original CD version, less noise perhaps? :scratch:
Firstly the CD - 15343 ...and now from the CDR - 15344
...I think this is conclusive evidence that Amazon's CDRs are not created from the original at all, more likely an mp3, 320 or less ...:steam:
Think it'll have been compressed to 192 actually. They used to use 320 but think they have changed. Then they will just uncompress whe the do a disc. Its a great way to get errors etc and cdrs aint both much good and dont last very long. I remember doing some a long time ago and a few years later they became unplayable all by themselves. Some brands are better than others though
Backing up CD's is of dubious legality in the UK (especially if you're format shifting in the process) also if you sell or dispose of the original you should discard the copy too (as the original is the 'licence key').
Not right, but the way it is.
It would be interesting to know what arrangements Amazon has with the licence holders for their CDR business, seems dodgy to me, do you also get photocopies of the artwork?
No of dubious legality, it is illegal and was recently ruled as such. That includes backing up, copies for the car etc etc.
Of course in this crazy country/ European super-state lots of perfectly sensible things are illegal and lots of very dubious things are legal. 'The law is an ass' as someone once astutely observed.
I'd be surprised if a company like Amazon had not had their lawyers check this out so I'm guessing that they do hold the rights/ written permission to do this. They should make it clear that you will be getting a crappy, lossy version and not a proper red book CD, though.
No of dubious legality, it is illegal and was recently ruled as such. That includes backing up, copies for the car etc etc.
Of course in this crazy country/ European super-state lots of perfectly sensible things are illegal and lots of very dubious things are legal. 'The law is an ass' as someone once astutely observed.
I'd be surprised if a company like Amazon had not had their lawyers check this out so I'm guessing that they do hold the rights/ written permission to do this. They should make it clear that you will be getting a crappy, lossy version and not a proper red book CD, though.
Yes it does put a lot of retrospective work in a silly position as folk that did it when it was legal presumably can claim it as legal when act was done. I doubt a court in the land would prosocute a person who is copying for own use
As Mr Bumble i think said the law is an ass. Its all steered toward big businesses..think we need another Cromwell lol
They should make it clear that you will be getting a crappy, lossy version and not a proper red book CD, though.
...Indeed Macca!
I'm curious as to how they can give it the same 'product code', obviously they need to do this in order for tagging to work, but surely that 'product code' is reserved for the CD...not an mp3 product (in the form of a CD)...:scratch:
The Court would uphold the law, whatever it happened to be, but the case would still have to be brought before them. This law does not seem to be actively policed so unless you go and hand yourself in and confess all nothing is likely to happen. Even then the CPS would have to decide if it was in the public interest to proceed with a prosecution.
The Court would uphold the law, whatever it happened to be, but the case would still have to be brought before them. This law does not seem to be actively policed so unless you go and hand yourself in and confess all nothing is likely to happen. Even then the CPS would have to decide if it was in the public interest to proceed with a prosecution.
...anyone who's concerned about digital resolution is in a small minority, and those who can verify it (dbpoweramp or equivalent users) are in an even smaller one, so as you say they'll get away with it...and we'll vote with our feet :eyebrows:
I've looked around for any other discussions on the subject, and most relate to the longevity of CDRs, or why one would want a CD over an MP3...I couldn't find anything relating to the quality of the source used...you live and learn ;)
Well the resolution issue would appear to be minor compared to the doubtful lifespan of the cdr and the fact that it is illegal to rip it or copy it to another, more reliable storage system.
As usual it all boils down to the music industry trying desperately to cling to the dismembered remains of the golden goose. They would love to see people prosecuted for copying cds to their hard drives. When they look at music enthusasts all they see is dollar signs.
Hard drive? What hard drive.I dont have a hard drive:whistle::whistle:
Spectral Morn
11-09-2015, 13:47
The genuine S/H CD version of Imperial Wax Solvent has arrived, and the audio quality difference is quite apparent, the CD version reveals that it's pretty well produced...for a Fall album ;) (actually they've been pretty good for a while)
All CD tracks passed the accurate rip CRC test (whilst the CDR failed all), FYI both were identified as having the same unique product code!!! (surely that can't be legal)
The below attachments are the dbpoweramp audio properties of a corresponding track from each album, hopefully the file resolution will be good enough to read.
The track lengths differ, the original file sizes differ, and the resulting FLAC sizes differ even more (both ripped at level 5)...it's interesting to note that the FLAC compression ratio is significantly better for the original CD version, less noise perhaps? :scratch:
Firstly the CD - 15343 ...and now from the CDR - 15344
...I think this is conclusive evidence that Amazon's CDRs are not created from the original at all, more likely an mp3, 320 or less ...:steam:
You should consider contacting the band and their record label to see what they say.
Regards Neil
Hard drive? What hard drive.I dont have a hard drive:whistle::whistle:
Yep. Deny everything, give them nothing but name, rank and number: 'Music, officer? What's that?'
Yep. Deny everything, give them nothing but name, rank and number: 'Music, officer? What's that?'
Officers of the royal navy dont require a number lol
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