View Full Version : Panasonic to re-launch Technics Turntable
The Black Adder
02-09-2015, 17:55
Read all about it here:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-09/02/panasonic-turntable-technics
http://www.thevinylfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/new_technics_turntable-616x440.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN5z03qWEAAqNrA.jpg
:D
Cheers
Jo
http://www.whathifi.com/news/ifa-technics-set-to-release-new-turntable-in-2016
Thoughts, comments??
Spectral Morn
02-09-2015, 19:26
http://www.whathifi.com/news/ifa-technics-set-to-release-new-turntable-in-2016
Thoughts, comments??
It will be very expensive, will sit within the R range and will have more in-kin with an SP10 than SL1200/1210 range.
Interesting and not unexpected.
Regards Neil
what does the r range mean?
RobbieGong
02-09-2015, 19:32
Sounds interesting would love to know about the proposed arm.
Spectral Morn
02-09-2015, 19:35
what does the r range mean?
Reference. Technics offer two ranges now Premium and Reference. The Technics Reference Class R1 consists of:
SE-R1 amplifier, £11,999
SU-R1 network player and preamp, £6,499
SB-R1 speakers, £18,599 for pair
My view is this new turntable will be an SP R1
Regards Neil
When you say Technics, most people think sl 1200. The DJ deck has many fans and some companies offer bits to tweak it. It may been build like a tank, but that's because it's meant to withstand DJ use. It will never be a hi-fi TT in my book, but I do believe it can be a fine entry level TT for home stereo use if you're happy with that, and you probably can better the sound by aftermarket tweaks. But to claim it can be tweaked into a hi-fi TT, as some sellers of tweaks do on their sites, is taking too far I think. That said, when I read on the linked site, it could look like Technics are taking a new approach and launching a TT for home use. If one should believe the written text, it might even be a fine product. Only time will tell. Onkyo launched the CP-1050 that on paper seems to be a Technics for home use. Maybe the new Technics aims to be a competent to the Onkyo TT ?
Spectral Morn
02-09-2015, 19:36
Sounds interesting would love to know about the proposed arm.
I think it will be a motor unit.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
02-09-2015, 19:39
When you say Technics, most people think sl 1200. The DJ deck has many fans and some companies offer bits to tweak it. It may been build like a tank, but that's because it's meant to withstand DJ use. It will never be a hi-fi TT in my book, but I do believe it can be a fine entry level TT for home stereo use if you're happy with that, and you probably can better the sound by aftermarket tweaks. But to claim it can be tweaked into a hi-fi TT, as some sellers of tweaks do on their sites, is taking too far I think. That said, when I read on the linked site, it could look like Technics are taking a new approach and launching a TT for home use. If one should believe the written text, it might even be a fine product. Only time will tell. Onkyo launched the CP-1050 that on paper seems to be a Technics for home use. Maybe the new Technics aims to be a competent to the Onkyo TT ?
Hi Dane
If you have never done it or heard one then you, with all due respect, have no idea of what you say. The SL1200 motor unit, used in either an Origin Live, KAB, Mike New, Funk etc configuration does offer high end performance and is not an entry level item.
and the SL1200 was originally a home use HiFi turntable before the DJ market took the turntable down a slightly - note only slightly - different road.
Regards Neil
May I add that the 1200/1210mk2 were the latest in a long line of illustrious forebears. 'My time' with Technics decks, before the LP12 all but took over 'our' lives in the late 70's, was with the rather excellent top-model non-quartz predecessors, which come to life properly sited sans lid in a modern system context and the immediately preceding SL150mk2 era range, which was a good looking and beefy sounding deck (probably more agile tones today with better siting, feet and mat). At the time, there really weren't many genuine sonically compatible direct driven competitors in the UK as the UK distributors were slowly withdrawing the decent stuff from our shores. Panasonic-Technics had got into the habit of changing models at least once a year (sometimes twice) and the fact the SL1200mk2 onwards was kept in production so long (since the late 70's/early 80's I think) is really something IMO.
When you say Technics, most people think sl 1200. The DJ deck has many fans and some companies offer bits to tweak it. It may been build like a tank, but that's because it's meant to withstand DJ use. It will never be a hi-fi TT in my book, but I do believe it can be a fine entry level TT for home stereo use if you're happy with that, and you probably can better the sound by aftermarket tweaks. But to claim it can be tweaked into a hi-fi TT, as some sellers of tweaks do on their sites, is taking too far I think. That said, when I read on the linked site, it could look like Technics are taking a new approach and launching a TT for home use. If one should believe the written text, it might even be a fine product. Only time will tell. Onkyo launched the CP-1050 that on paper seems to be a Technics for home use. Maybe the new Technics aims to be a competent to the Onkyo TT ?
Hi Lars,
All I can say is 'LOL!' Come and hear my modded SL-1210 and see if you think it's a hi-fi T/T! :eyebrows:
You may also wish to read this section of the forum, and the numerous experiences therein of those who've 'tweaked their Techies' with great success, in case you've missed it: http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?46-The-Techiepedia
;)
Anyway, like Neil says, this new addition to the range appears to resemble an SP10 much more than any SL-1200 or 1210. It'll be interesting to see the final price that they come up with, given the direct-drive T/Ts that are now being produced by respected high-end turntable manufacturers - and also where the new Technics will sit, performance wise (once reviewed), in comparison with those.
Marco.
mike1210
02-09-2015, 20:58
Awesome was just about to post this myself.
One of their previous efforts was moderately successful :D
Mark Grant
02-09-2015, 22:31
Looks very minimalist :D and because it is raised off the table on those chrome legs it will be easy to dust underneath.
I think they have forgotten something :)
Have to say it looks awful to me, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Awful to me too, but of course it's not a finished product.
Hi Mark, hope you are keeping well!, mate :wave:
Marco.
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/sp10panasonic400.jpg
Anybody else think with it's legs and exposed undercarriage that this looks like a de-plinthed SP-10? Feels to me like it's waiting to be mounted in something...
I think the styling clearly needs to be finished, especially as there are no controls, no arm etc. No stroboscope makes sense as we know if the Quartz is working the machine will always be bang on (even if no strobe makes me a little sad.)
Expect this will be megabuck$ in line with their new digital kit. Can I have one with an SME V on it please? ;-)
Reminds me of zincalume roofing. Can't imagine the finished product will look like this at all.
Hal55
Seems to me they have rebooted the manufacturing of the old SL-150!
http://ollars.net/hififorum/SL150_SM03.JPG
It even has got the same mat as the SL-150 (at least visually)
Clive197
05-09-2015, 09:30
When you say Technics, most people think sl 1200. The DJ deck has many fans and some companies offer bits to tweak it. It may been build like a tank, but that's because it's meant to withstand DJ use. It will never be a hi-fi TT in my book, but I do believe it can be a fine entry level TT for home stereo use if you're happy with that, and you probably can better the sound by aftermarket tweaks. But to claim it can be tweaked into a hi-fi TT, as some sellers of tweaks do on their sites, is taking too far I think. That said, when I read on the linked site, it could look like Technics are taking a new approach and launching a TT for home use. If one should believe the written text, it might even be a fine product. Only time will tell. Onkyo launched the CP-1050 that on paper seems to be a Technics for home use. Maybe the new Technics aims to be a competent to the Onkyo TT ?
You are of course entitled to your opinion. Sadly you are completely and utterly incorrect. When was the last time you listened to a Technics SL1200/1210. My money is on never.
This forum has a very large membership of vinyl enthusiasts, many of whom have a SL1200/1210, myself included. The Tecnics turntable is a tweekers paradise due to it's inherent strength and build.
Well we shouldn't be too hard on Lars, it is a logical point of view if you have never heard an SL1200 'done right'. The whole 'DJ' thing does confuse people. In fact although the deck was adopted by DJs, its original intended market was broadcast studios.
Ive heard basic models many years ago but not lately and certainly not an upgraded one. They were in the day a decent base deck but nothing more, or thats how they appeared. It is obvious though that when fettled they can be special or folk wouldnt go to the trouble and expense of doing it.
There are a lot of folk who know there onions tt wise here who swear by them so i for one am not going to diss them or the tt.
I found this excerpt very interesting though i don't see Panasonic indicating exactly where the TT will fit price wise or even whether there will be a range of products or not. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nOj9MTlLrG4
Well we shouldn't be too hard on Lars, it is a logical point of view if you have never heard an SL1200 'done right'. The whole 'DJ' thing does confuse people.
Indeed. The problem is that they often appear to form rigid (and rather inflexible) opinions on only *some* of the facts: yes, SL-1200/1210s were used by DJs, no they weren't originally designed for that purpose, without hearing a judiciously modified one for themselves, and then being in a position to speak from experience.
I'm all for folk holding different opinions, but educated ones will always have far greater authority! ;)
Marco.
I found this excerpt very interesting though i don't see Panasonic indicating exactly where the TT will fit price wise or even whether there will be a range of products or not. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nOj9MTlLrG4
Hi Lynton,
Most interesting. I shall follow developments with interest!
One thought that immediately pops into my head is whether some of the mods we've fitted to our current Techies, such as new bearings, platters and PSUs, will be retrofittable to the MK7 model, should it be an all-round improvement, over the MK5 (and its earlier derivatives).
If so, that could be quite exciting, having an all-round superior 'platform' from which to further improve the T/Ts sonic performance - or perhaps the MK7 will be so fundamentally better as to render what we have now as 'obsolete'.....? Mmm...
Marco.
I think that hardly any of the components you have now will be able to be transferred over.
The question is, will it be better than a modified Sl1200? From the marketing spiel, it sounds like that is the goal.
It should certainly have a better bearing in it than the standard, but all of this will come at a cost.
Spectral Morn
06-09-2015, 10:50
I found this excerpt very interesting though i don't see Panasonic indicating exactly where the TT will fit price wise or even whether there will be a range of products or not. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nOj9MTlLrG4
Key words being Reference and Sp10, this will be as I thought part of the Reference range.
Thanks for finding and posting this.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
06-09-2015, 10:54
Hi Lynton,
Most interesting. I shall follow developments with interest!
One thought that immediately pops into my head is whether some of the mods we've fitted to our current Techies, such as new bearings, platters and PSUs, will be retrofittable to the MK7 model, should it be an all-round improvement, over the MK5 (and its earlier derivatives).
If so, that could be quite exciting, having an all-round superior 'platform' from which to further improve the T/Ts sonic performance - or perhaps the MK7 will be so fundamentally better as to render what we have now as 'obsolete'.....? Mmm...
Marco.
Marco
The poster of that video has made a very tenuous assumption this is a mk 7 SL1200, thus labelling the video that. My view is that is wrong, I also think that this new turntable will not require tweaking or after market upgrades as the 1200/1210 did, as I suspect Technics will make this a cost no object design and as such address all the weaknesses in the 1200/1210 and more than likely take it way beyond the SP10 too.
Regards Neil
Hi Neil,
Sure, but there is obviously a new Technics turntable coming soon. The question is, how good it will be in comparison with both the SL-1200 and SP10. If, like you say, the goal is to create a 'cost no object' design, which will fundamentally outperform the old models, then that'll be fun. The interesting thing for me will be the pricing...
When the SP10 was launched in the 70s, it was also a 'cost no object' design, *but* its cost (although high) reflected the savings National Panasonic could pass onto the customer, due to economies of scale, and that was particularly so with the SL-1200/1210, which at one point retailed for £300 new - a ridiculously low price, considering the engineering and build quality of the design.
Therefore, the question is, will Technics this time price the 'SL-1200 Mk7', or whatever the new turntable is going to be, in the same way, reflecting those costs savings as before, or will they go 'all high-end' on us, and price it on a level with other turntables, which currently occupy that sector of the market.
I'm hoping that the price they come up with will remain 'sensible', as otherwise the genuine enthusiasts (and music lovers) who've invested their hard-earned cash before in the company, and deserve to benefit from any advantages of this new design, are going to miss out to the 'key janglers', with suitably fat wallets, simply to indulge their superficial whims.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
06-09-2015, 11:25
Hi Neil,
Sure, but there is obviously a new Technics turntable coming soon. The question is, how good it will be in comparison with both the SL-1200 and SP10. If, like you say, the goal is to create a 'cost no object' design, which will fundamentally outperform the old models, then that'll be fun. The interesting thing for me will be the pricing...
When the SP10 was launched in the 70s, it was also a 'cost no object' design, *but* its cost (although high) reflected the savings National Panasonic could pass onto the customer, due to economies of scale, and that was particularly so with the SL-1200/1210, which at one point retailed for £300 new - a ridiculously low price, considering the engineering and build quality of the design.
Therefore, the question is, will Technics this time price the 'SL-1200 Mk7', or whatever the new turntable is going to be, in the same way, reflecting those costs savings as before, or will they go 'all high-end' on us, and price it on a level with other turntables, which currently occupy that sector of the market.
I'm hoping that the price they come up with will remain 'sensible', as otherwise the genuine enthusiasts (and music lovers) who've invested their hard-earned cash before in the company, and deserve to benefit from any advantages of this new design, are going to miss out to the 'key janglers', with suitably fat wallets, simply to indulge their superficial whims.
If the finish on the top plate is production - maybe not as they say its still a pro-type - and based on the view of the very substantial bearing my guess is in and around £4000 maybe more. What interests me is, will this be a motor unit only (item shown looks very much like that) or a complete design with a plinth and arm.
There may well be a cheaper version but based on the launch so far Reference series first then more affordable next, this will not be cheap. What worries me is if its Reference then what it looks like or not may not bear on the price. All the Reference series items so far are very highend in terms of price so £10000 might be the retail price of this turntable.
I suspect more press releases later in the year and early next. Exciting time, fingers crossed this works out to be as good as it looks - time will tell.
Regards Neil
If it was £4k, as a motor-unit/PSU only, and that motor unit/PSU was substantially superior to what I currently have, then I would gladly pay that, sell what I have now, minus the tonearm, and simply fit that onto the new model, together with a suitable plinth.
However, if it's going to be £10k, then forget it. £4k, IMO, is sensible. £10k is 'key jangler' territory, where one is paying for more than performance alone ('prestige value', or whatever) - and I won't entertain that bollocks.
Like you, however, I will watch future developments with great interest! :)
Marco.
When you say Technics, most people think sl 1200. The DJ deck has many fans and some companies offer bits to tweak it. It may been build like a tank, but that's because it's meant to withstand DJ use. It will never be a hi-fi TT in my book, but I do believe it can be a fine entry level TT for home stereo use if you're happy with that, and you probably can better the sound by aftermarket tweaks. But to claim it can be tweaked into a hi-fi TT, as some sellers of tweaks do on their sites, is taking too far I think. That said, when I read on the linked site, it could look like Technics are taking a new approach and launching a TT for home use. If one should believe the written text, it might even be a fine product. Only time will tell. Onkyo launched the CP-1050 that on paper seems to be a Technics for home use. Maybe the new Technics aims to be a competent to the Onkyo TT ?
That's just about the funniest thing I've read in a long time. " but I do believe it can be a fine entry level TT " :rfl: :rfl: :rfl:
Spectral Morn
06-09-2015, 13:00
If it was £4k, as a motor-unit/PSU only, and that motor unit/PSU was substantially superior to what I currently have, then I would gladly pay that, sell what I have now, minus the tonearm, and simply fit that onto the new model, together with a suitable plinth.
However, if it's going to be £10k, then forget it. £4k, IMO, is sensible. £10k is 'key jangler' territory, where one is paying for more than performance alone ('prestige value', or whatever) - and I won't entertain that bollocks.
Like you, however, I will watch future developments with great interest! :)
Marco.
These are the UK retail prices of the other R series Technics products, I am extrapolating a possible price based on these but with not much to go on its tricky and purely guess work.
SE-R1 amplifier, £11,999
SU-R1 network player and preamp, £6,499
SB-R1 speakers, £18,599 for pair
Regards Neil
The magic words to triple the price eh... Reference and broadcast:doh:
allthingsanalogue
07-09-2015, 07:28
I thought this was the case even with the 1210?
https://www.facebook.com/TechnicsPetition/posts/449933428524622
It is. 'Cogging' and 'servo hunting' was just some bollocks made up in the 1980s to sell belt drive decks.
As far as I'm aware virtually all Brush less DC motors with a stator exhibit some degree of speed and torque ripple due to cogging effect, including the SL1200 I thought, it's just the degree of effect.
Cogging is caused by the magnetic poles and non uniform magnetic field densities at the rotor passes from one domain to another. So it's not BS but the marketing maybe was highlighting this apparent 'flaw' ;) Cogging can be eliminated as far as I understand by using thingap/slotless/coreless motors but they are very expensive...maybe that is what Technics have done but judging from this video (shamelessly stolen from Chris over on PFM) it may not be the case....
https://youtu.be/gQoXsvRsLJA
Edit: Ah, ok they *are* using a coreless motor
Shamelessly plucked from the pfm archives, posted by the venerable Mr Sircom, in relation to the 'cogging effect' of direct-drive T/Ts:
From what I remember, the problems levelled at early DDs were largely down to a combination of using tachometer servos (instead of quartz lock servo systems) and lightweight platters. The servo cannot react fast enough to cope with dynamic change in musical programme, and the platter doesn't have enough mass for flywheel effects to overcome the problem. This wasn't the sort of thing that came up on standard W&F tests because a 3kHz test tone is dealt with exceptionally well by frequency generator servos. Under dynamic conditions, the friction from stylus drag was enough to cause slowing under load.
Of course, by the time we got PLL servos, this became one big non-issue, except for the cheapest, nastiest DDs. But by then, the damage had been done. "Slowing under load" became the knee-jerk dismissal of DD turntable, irrespective of whether they actually did it or not, and DD turntables were considered a no-no.
In fairness, many of Martin Colloms turntable tests group in HFC of the late 1970s and early 1980s found DD decks often outperformed BD turntables, but by that time the whole flat earth thing had pretty much taken hold and to say something was better than the LP12 was to invite people to question your hearing and your sanity.
Note the emboldened text, in particular [PLL servos, used on the likes of the SL-1200/1210, kill any notion of cogging], and then factor in the use of a (slightly) heavier MN platter and (fairly massy) Nagaoka glass mat, such as, for example, I have in situ, and it's a total non-issue :)
Marco.
walpurgis
07-09-2015, 08:46
Surely even if a small amount of 'cogging' potentially occurs, the inertia and mass of the turntable platter will iron that out.
StanleyB
07-09-2015, 09:31
The introduction of quartz locked DD motors was in itself not always better than what came before. Cue the Micro Seiki DDX-1000, which outperforms the quartz version, the DQX-1000.
"Outperforms" how, Stan? Sonically? If so, that's entirely subjective :)
At the end of the day, turntables, as with any other piece of hi-fi equipment, are a collection of compromises, so simply choose those you feel most able to live with, and just enjoy the music :cool:
Marco.
I thought the DQX also had a heavier platter and higher torque motor...don't see how you could lay any subjective sonic 'blame' on just the addition of a PLL
Just noted my KD-990 has a quartz locked PLL coreless and slotless motor
StanleyB
07-09-2015, 10:07
"Outperforms", how, Stan? Sonically? If so, that's entirely subjective :)
It was a topic of discussion amongst Micro Seiki DDX and DQX in the eighties, but due to the limited amount of owners of those two decks you don't see it mentioned these days. I myself have never met a single person in the last 30 years who also owns a DDX-1000.
Oldpinkman
07-09-2015, 11:26
It is. 'Cogging' and 'servo hunting' was just some bollocks made up in the 1980s to sell belt drive decks.
I rather read it that the claims were being made by Panasonic in 2015, not 1980's belt drive supporters. Servo hunt is almost just a term for servo function. It manifests more if the motor turns slowly. A servo corrects speed drift. A DC motor without a servo mechanism of some form drifts its speed. A servo mechanisms monitors and corrects. Corrections mean pulls and shoves , however tiny. The faster the motor turns, the smaller the shoves and pulls can be - proportionately.
And regarding comments by others, I'm not sure flywheel effects help in this context. I rather think quite the opposite. A high mass (rotational inertia) means the servo is inclined to give bigger pulls and shoves. This was allegedly the problem with the very slightly higher mass Funk strata platter, as heard by Martin T and Marco, although paradoxically not with the gargantuan Mike New early platter according to Marco's original eulogy of both the platter and the "awesome Technics DD motor". Although in fact, due to weight distribution, the Funk platter was slightly higher mass, but nearly identical rotational inertia.
Panasonic are also claiming they have improved the servo performance it would appear. Panasonic note - those Matshushita engineers you eulogise - not 1980's belt drive enthusiasts. ;)
They only mentioned that because they know the first thing out of some people's mouths when they see a direct drive, any direct drive is 'ooh I can hear it hunting and cogging' - Bollocks can they!
And when did any company ever release a new product and say it was no improvement on the old one?
Agree with you about the flywheel thing, though.
The Black Adder
07-09-2015, 11:57
'Cogging' sounds like some dodgy activity in the woods on a Friday night... lol
Never heard of it before personally...
Sure there used to be a law agin it :eyebrows:
Oldpinkman
07-09-2015, 12:06
They only mentioned that because they know the first thing out of some people's mouths when they see a direct drive, any direct drive is 'ooh I can hear it hunting and cogging' - Bollocks can they!
And when did any company ever release a new product and say it was no improvement on the old one?
Agree with you about the flywheel thing, though.
I am impressed with your intimate knowledge of Technics basis for making technical claims.
(Although it seems odd they didn't just say "all that stuff about cogging DD's is bollocks" - instead of "our new DD fixes the cogging problem")
As for "when did any company.." are you suggesting that Technics tell deliberate fibs, or simply that the stock SL1210 was perfect and incapable of any improvement?
As for "when did any company.." are you suggesting that Technics tell deliberate fibs, or simply that the stock SL1210 was perfect and incapable of any improvement?
It depends whether you want to call it lying or just being economical with the truth.
Its called 'sales and marketing' and they all do it.
If you want to sell a turntable for £10K it is not generally considered to be a good idea to say that it doesn't really improve on the one you used to sell for £500. Not even in a couple of areas. No it must be wholly, 100% new, better and improved.
Panasonic are also claiming they have improved the servo performance it would appear. Panasonic note - those Matshushita engineers you eulogise - not 1980's belt drive enthusiasts...
*Everything* can be improved, if you throw enough money and know-how at it! ;)
The point is that the PLL servos in high-quality, Quartz-locked direct-drive motors, such as those used on SL-1200/1210s, made 'cogging' virtually a non-issue. You certainly couldn't hear any such effect during the playback of music.
Panasonic now, with their proposed new design, have simply chucked more money and know-how at it, and so have made the above even less of non-issue than it was before....! Simples :)
Marco.
'Cogging' sounds like some dodgy activity in the woods on a Friday night... lol
Apparently, it's the same as dogging, but with badgers.
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
07-09-2015, 12:43
I thought the DQX also had a heavier platter and higher torque motor...don't see how you could lay any subjective sonic 'blame' on just the addition of a PLL
Just noted my KD-990 has a quartz locked PLL coreless and slotless motor
The KD-990 is also designed from a different viewpoint, compared to the likes of SL-1200s. Specifically, it has a relatively massy platter, relatively modest motor torque, and a flat-ended grease bearing that applies constant drag, all of which (I believe) contribute to its graceful sound characteristic. There are successful DD decks from the 70s onwards, but let's not forget that there were some dogs too. It's not the drive method so much as the whole design that matters.
One oddity that I'd like to throw into the discussion is the Pioneer PL-71, which of course pre-dates quartz-locked thingies. It's one of the most musical decks that I've owned, and broadly on a par with the KD-990. So, there may well be something to what Stan mentioned earlier.
Again, it's not the drive system that matters - it's the whole design. A quartz-locked servo does not on its own create a good turntable.
There are good and bad ways of doing most things but it's easy to understand why Direct Drive never caught on (commercially) in a big way, except with DJs. Now is a little different, since cost matters less to the tiny pool of new audiophile vinyl buyers, it seems. I can't help thinking that Technics will lose a great deal of money with this proposed deck, pitching it into an already over-heated vinyl bubble that has some pretty stunning direct drive decks already.
Panasonic now, with their proposed new design, have simply chucked more money and know-how at it, and so have made the above even less of non-issue than it was before....! Simples :)
Marco.
That is assumption though since details are sketchy as they always are with these things at this stage Do we even know this motor has been developed in house by Panasonic? Would it matter if it wasn't? Will it be any better than other, similar motors already used in other decks? Will it 'sound' better?
Most importantly for me is: would I be able to afford it even if I wanted one and the answer is, of course, no. ;)
orbscure
07-09-2015, 12:54
Everything can be improved, if you throw enough money and know-how at it! ;)
Sounds just like a fully pimped 1210 to me... reverse baseball cap included ;) :sofa:
That is assumption though since details are sketchy as they always are with these things at this stage Do we even know this motor has been developed in house by Panasonic? Would it matter if it wasn't? Will it be any better than other, similar motors already used in other decks? Will it 'sound' better?
Most importantly for me is: would I be able to afford it even if I wanted one and the answer is, of course, no. ;)
Indeed, and all those points are relevant.
All I'm interested in is if the new unit sounds better, due to it being better engineered - and if the price tag is what I would consider as 'sensible', rather than stupid [£4-5k, as opposed to £10-12k]. If the former is the case, then I could be in.
Marco.
It is. 'Cogging' and 'servo hunting' was just some bollocks made up in the 1980s to sell belt drive decks.
Martin, 'Servo Hunting' was very much an issue on what I call 'second tier' direct drives, especially ones fitted with the OEM Matsushita motor (I'm remembering JBE, Monitor Audio, Trio/Kenwood on some models and Garrard I think in the DD75). These things were awful and the wow could be audible on some heavy orchestral and piano music.
As for 'cogging,' Not sure the stock Techie with low-drag bearing and low mass platter doesn't suffer a touch for this. I wonder if the 'improvement' wrought by the MN bearing may just have something to do with the increased 'drag' (due to the very tight tolerances) smoothing the servos out a little?
Hi Hugo,
I completely agree with everything you wrote, however:
There are good and bad ways of doing most things but it's easy to understand why Direct Drive never caught on (commercially) in a big way, except with DJs.
Yes, it was very much to do with the 'belt-drive brainwash' that existed in the UK, during the 70s and 80s, and perpetrated by what could be called the 'flat-earth movement'.
People then (as indeed as they are now) were influenced by what they read in magazines, from so-called 'experts' - and if they were continually being told that Jap D/D decks were essentially crap, then that's what the majority of folk would've believed, especially when they visited the dealerships back then, most of whom continued to further perpetrate the same brainwash...
Therefore, as a result of that, and so little of the best Jap gear being produced in those days (not just turntables, but amps and speakers) seeing the light of day in the UK, the overriding perception amongst UK audiophiles was that Japanese hi-fi equipment was inferior to the British stuff, eulogised in the audio press then - and of course included in that were belt-drive T/Ts, from the likes of Systemdek, Rega, Roksan, Linn, Michell, and a whole host of others, leaving D/D without a real look in!
*That* is largely why Direct-Drive never caught on here - nothing whatsoever to do with how good the concept could be, when as you say, it was implemented correctly in the design of a T/T.
The DJs latched onto direct-drive T/Ts mainly because of their fast start-up time and rugged construction, but also because the better ones sounded superb, especially when pumping out 12" singles in dance clubs. Contrary to popular misconception, DJs aren't deaf: they know what good sound is, the same as we do, although of course their priorities are a little different.
What the DJs successfully did, however, is prolong the production of the SL-1200/1210 for far longer than would've been the case, had it remained in its original format, as a design aimed at the audiophile market - and for that, all those who love using their Techies today, should be thankful! :)
Marco.
Beobloke
07-09-2015, 15:40
Someone once asked me "Why did the major Japanese manufacturers with their huge R&D departments throw so much time, effort and money into designing high end direct drive turntables if the "best" way of spinning an LP is with a little Philips motor and a rubber band?"
:D
Ammonite Audio
07-09-2015, 15:49
I don't think that we were conned by Linn et al. I bought the LP12 based on its sound quality and its physical quality, both of which were by far the best at the time. I was happy with that decision at the time and for many years afterwards; also my own LP12 experiences largely supported the magazines' enthusiasm. Much of the Japanese stuff available in the UK was feature-laden rubbish, including turntables, most of which were seen off by modest Dual belt drives. Some of it was good, but don't succumb to this current forum fad of holding up every bit of old Japanese audio gear, and telling the world that it was all great. It wasn't. That's why it took the little NAD 3020 to show the way, at least for amplifiers.
Anyway, back to the topic - I hope that this is just a ploy by Panasonic/Technics to generate some media interest, rather than signalling a definite intent to pile into the already overheated turntable market.
It is true that the LP12 was a cut above. But our comparisons were with Rega Planars, mostly, because that is what everyone had. Only your mate's dads had Jap direct drives in their dusty JVC/JBL systems that they clearly had not used since children had appeared 15 years previously, and we just assumed that stuff was old hat and a bit crap because the mags said so.
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2015, 16:09
There seems to be much misunderstanding about phase locked loops (PLL's), "quartz lock" and general servo theory going on here.... not that it appears to be preventing people from pontificating on it!
I guess this is how some things become "accepted knowledge" if repeated enough, on enough forums and by enough people, even though sometimes 100% wrong.... sometimes to the extent that if one tries to point out the facts one is treated like an idiot because 33.3 people on 45 forums are all repeating the same rubbish and all those views "can't be wrong"..... Chinese whispers... :eyebrows:
I don't think that we were conned by Linn et al.
We'll have to disagree on that, Hugo. Many were, and I know plenty! Also, you only have to read some of the (clearly misguided) opinions on forums about direct-drive T/Ts, born from age-old prejudice and ignorance, to see ample evidence of that 'conning' still alive and kicking today.
I bought the LP12 based on its sound quality and its physical quality, both of which were by far the best at the time.
That's fine, as you made that decision with your own ears, but the point is, would you have arrived at that conclusion had, say, the Pioneer PL-71 been available for comparison then with the LP12 you bought? The reality is that almost no-one living in the UK in those days would've had the luxury of carrying out such a comparison.
Much of the Japanese stuff available in the UK was feature-laden rubbish, including turntables, most of which were seen off by modest Dual belt drives. Some of it was good, but don't succumb to this current forum fad of holding up every bit of old Japanese audio gear, and telling the world that it was all great. It wasn't.
I completely agree, but that doesn't negate the fact that the BEST of it (the vast majority of which never reached our shores), and which is what I'm referring to and is often recommended on AoS, was often far superior to what we were using at the time in the UK. I only have to listen to the likes of my 1989-vintage Sony-ES CDP and DAC, to be reminded of that fact! ;)
Marco.
I never fell for that Linn "hype". Even when I had the opportunity to spend six months with a friend's LP12, I heard no reason at all to abandon my Thorens TD124/II. Quite the opposite in fact, with tales of the Linn needing its suspension (re)adjusting every few months or so. I wouldn't abide any of that nonsense; a change of belt every five years and a bit of a re-lube is all my decks need.
Ive not touched my 160 since it got connected. Still running fine. My suspension is run tight as it improves the sound .....i know i know everyone says its wrong but i aint everybody:) well i like it and thats what counts
There seems to be much misunderstanding about phase locked loops (PLL's), "quartz lock" and general servo theory going on here.... not that it appears to be preventing people from pontificating on it!
Then feel free to elucidate! :)
Marco.
Ive not touched my 160 since it got connected. Still running fine. My suspension is run tight as it improves the sound .....i know i know everyone says its wrong but i aint everybody:) well i like it and thats what counts
Haha - well Linn's philosophy at the time was to tighten everything. (Tighten up bolts until the thread strips then slacken off by a quarter turn.) I have seen the damage this has done to some Linn items.
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2015, 16:28
Then feel free to elucidate! :)
Marco.
It's a massive subject and those with an interest can no doubt read up on it.... :)
Yes, but just tell us the bits that we're getting wrong or misunderstanding, as you say. We're all here to learn.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2015, 16:59
Yes, but just tell us the bits that we're getting wrong or misunderstanding, as you say. We're all here to learn.
Marco.
well a few points then... "Quartz Lock" is not a real technical term in electronics. Lock refers to a phase locked loop being in lock (some may recall "Houston, we have lock" on old NASA footage). "Quartz lock" just infers that the reference oscillator of the PLL is a quartz oscillator and so very accurately on frequency. It should therefore maintain 33.333RPM as accurately as a quartz watch keeps time (probably better for reasons I won't go into). So PLL and "Quartz Lock" are usually the same thing. Most PLL's use a quartz reference oscillator anyway so it's likely the marketing departments got wind of this and thought "Quartz Lock" sounded good...
There are other methods of controlling the speed that don't use a PLL and may still use a quartz oscillator though which can muddy the waters. Most will be as I described above though.
walpurgis
07-09-2015, 17:05
The LP12 was not 'the best' at its launch. The 301 and 401 and TD124 were plentiful back then and in my opinion at least. Preferable.
well a few points then... "Quartz Lock" is not a real technical term in electronics. Lock refers to a phase locked loop being in lock (some may recall "Houston, we have lock" on old NASA footage). "Quartz lock" just infers that the reference oscillator of the PLL is a quartz oscillator and so very accurately on frequency. It should therefore maintain 33.333RPM as accurately as a quartz watch keeps time (probably better for reasons I won't go into). So PLL and "Quartz Lock" are usually the same thing. Most PLL's use a quartz reference oscillator anyway so it's likely the marketing departments got wind of this and thought "Quartz Lock" sounded good...
There are other methods of controlling the speed that don't use a PLL and may still use a quartz oscillator though which can muddy the waters. Most will be as I described above though.
Yep, I get all that and agree :)
My point earlier was that the 'Quartz Lock', PLL servos, or whatever you want to call it, were responsible for eradicating any real issue of 'cogging' with direct-drive turntables. Regardless, however, I can hear no such effect with my own T/T, so am perfectly happy to 'file it in the bin', as an irrelevance.
Marco.
The LP12 was not 'the best' at its launch. The 301 and 401 and TD124 were plentiful back then and in my opinion at least. Preferable.
Wheras based on my experience I think if I had to choose between a 301, 401 and LP12 then it would be the LP12. Totally subjective and I've never heard any of them in my own system. Plus I'm not a turntable enthusiast. I only have four.
The LP12 was not 'the best' at its launch. The 301 and 401 and TD124 were plentiful back then and in my opinion at least. Preferable.
Indeed. I wish I'd known that those had existed, when I got into proper hi-fi in 1982. If so, I suspect that the turntable using habits I subsequently developed would've taken a rather different direction!
Marco.
walpurgis
07-09-2015, 17:14
Wheras based on my experience I think if I had to choose between a 301, 401 and LP12 then it would be the LP12. Totally subjective and I've never heard any of them in my own system. Plus I'm not a turntable enthusiast. I only have four.
Er. You have me a little baffled with that one Martin. How can that statement be based on your experience if you've not tried them? :lol:
Wheras based on my experience I think if I had to choose between a 301, 401 and LP12 then it would be the LP12..
Why, exactly? :scratch:
Have you ever done a proper back to back comparison? IME, either Garrard above (properly set up in a decent plinth) murders any LP12 I've heard! And so does a good TD-124.
Marco.
Stratmangler
07-09-2015, 17:16
Er. You have me a little baffled with that one Martin. How can that statement be based on your experience if you've not tried them? :lol:
It looks the nicest? ;)
Not tried them in my own home, but have heard various iterations of all three in other's systems.
The Black Adder
07-09-2015, 17:18
Some new info and pics of it here for you all:
Sorry the link to the page didn't work for some mad reason so I copied it out for you.
---
The new model will feature an improved direct drive motor and redesigned motor control technology, according to Panasonic.
Last week, Panasonic sent vinyl fans spinning with news (http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-news/panasonic-to-relaunch-technics-turntables/) that they will be resurrecting the legendary Technics turntable line.
Few details were revealed, beyond that the new build would feature improved elements at every level but still reflect the classic Technics 1200 look and feel. The prototype photo didn’t give much away either.
There was confusion on social media: “It looks like something to cut ham”; “I could have made that by putting the platter of my deck on a chopping board”; “Will you be able to buy these at Tesco’s (http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-releases/tesco-selling-vinyl-is-a-good-thing-there-are-bigger-fish-to-fry/)?”
Now, thankfully, Panasonic have announced some further details – primarily that the new Technics will feature an improved direct drive motor as well as redesigned high-precision motor control technology. They hope these improvements will reduce motor vibrations, eliminate cogging, minimise wow and flutter and maintain high torque.
It’s also been revealed that the new model will drop in 2016.
Here’s the breakdown of improvements and redesigns, taken from the Panasonic website (http://news.panasonic.com/press/news/data/2015/09/en150903-3/en150903-3.html#news_sender_en):
The newly-developed direct drive motor has the following features:
•Coreless stator design that eliminates cogging
•Twin rotors that reduce bearing load and minimize tiny rotational fluctuations (wow & flutter), while maintaining high torque
•Oil impregnated high-precision bearings that minimize unwanted vibrations during rotation
The redesigned direct drive motor control technology involves the following:
•Spindle motor control technology that switches the stator winding drive mode according to operating conditions to provide both high starting torque and high rotational stability
•Adaptive rotational control technology that achieves optimized compensation according to precision rotational position detection and load fluctuation factors
http://www.thevinylfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Technics2-665x400.png
http://www.thevinylfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Technics-Turntable-at-IFA-2015-1-1280x7201.jpg
http://www.thevinylfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Technics-Turntable-at-IFA-2015-4-1280x7201.jpg
http://www.thevinylfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Technics1.png
Cool... Jo, could you do me a favour, please, and merge this thread with the one in the Techiepedia? It's pointless having two separate ones discussing the same subject :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2015, 17:21
Seems to me they have rebooted the manufacturing of the old SL-150!
http://ollars.net/hififorum/SL150_SM03.JPG
It even has got the same mat as the SL-150 (at least visually)
That's a MkII I believe... I have one...
walpurgis
07-09-2015, 17:23
That's a MkII I believe... I have one...
Yup. One of the Mk.II series models.
No, not done a back to back.
Put it this way - I aim for neutrality with digital - you can never reach it but I aim for it. With vinyl I don't see the point in even aiming for it I'd just choose what I think sounds most enjoyable. For me - of those three - that is the Linn, I really like how it presents music. And I like the old ones from the 1980s better than the newer ones. I'm not suggesting there is any rhyme or reason to it for one minute. I've thought about buying one a few times, the old ones can be got for a monkey.
What was it you didn't like about the Garrards you heard?
I suspect that you haven't heard a really good 301 or 401, given how I know you like a T/T to sound :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
07-09-2015, 17:29
Yep, I get all that and agree :)
My point earlier was that the 'Quartz Lock', PLL servos, or whatever you want to call it, were responsible for eradicating any real issue of 'cogging' with direct-drive turntables. Regardless, however, I can hear no such effect with my own T/T, so am perfectly happy to 'file it in the bin', as an irrelevance.
Marco.
Actually Marco I don't think thats true. Cogging and servos are not really related.
As Jez has pointed out "PLL" and "Quartz" are not mutually exclusive. The main servo differences are plain old vanilla voltage comparison "servo's" whose accuracy is subject to component tolerances, temperature and the like (using a frequency to voltage converter and referencing amplifier) , and the alternative of comparing the frequency from the motors tacho directly with a reference frequency supplied by a quartz crystal.
None of this has anything to do with cogging. It is about providing a steady reliable reference speed. It may be relevant to "hunt" because whether quartz locked or not, the servo output is going to be a voltage variation to the motor (the shove or tug I referred to before). If you have to give big shoves or tugs you risk getting constant overshoot and undershoot.
Cogging is about fixed resistance points at the motors poles. You can feel it when you turn a DC motor by hand as it jumps from pole to pole.
Where there is a "commonality" regarding Direct Drive motors is that both cogging and hunt are likely to be worse in motors which turn slowly compared with ones which turn quickly. If your motor is spinning fast you don't really notice the cogging torque at each pole in the way you do when slowly turning it by hand. Equally, if your motor is turning fast, the servo mechanism gets lots of opportunities every second to make a small adjustment to the motor speed, because it is getting many more speed readings per second. The adjustments are therefore correspondingly small, and the risk of undershoot or overshoot greatly reduced.
Whereas "flywheel mass" doesn't help with servo control (is probably counterproductive) by contrast it does help with the cogging issue. Maybe one reason the LP12 with its massive platter, but nasty cogging AC synchronous motor, didn't suffer so badly from the cogging. Of course, however much its AC motor cogged, it was very speed stable due to being phase locked to AC.
I think though, this whole debate misses the point. There is a lot more to a turntable than the motor. And both the SL1200 and the mass of other "under appreciated" Japanese turntables were probably not loved for reasons other than issues about motors, cogging and servo hunt. The most obvious difference between an LP12 and and SL1200 is the arm (think about it). And a whole bunch of other things affect how a record player sounds. Like thin ringing platters, hard rubber mats, no suspension, moderate bearings... It wasn't about the drive mechanism. It was about drive mechanisms being no substitute for total record player design. You couldn't take a thin lightweight sows ear of a japanese turntable and make it into a silk purse of an "audiophile" turntable, just by changing its belt drive with direct drive. Quartz PLL or not.
Put it this way - I aim for neutrality with digital - you can never reach it but I aim for it.
Lol... Not that old chestnut again!
Next time you're round, you'll need to demonstrate to me, using identical recordings on both CD and vinyl (and I have a few), how the sound produced by my T/T, playing the vinyl, is 'less neutral' than my CDP is, playing the CD ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
07-09-2015, 17:31
I like the old ones from the 1980s better than the newer ones.
My preference is for the older Sondeks too. There was a certain euphonic character that was steadily tailored out over the years. Rather like modern speakers that have had any character removed to the point they all sound pretty similar tonally (big generalisation I know :)).
Would that be the original Ariston?
As I said in an earlier post, time spent (six months) comparing my Thorens TD124/II with my friend's Linn LP12 in my system, did nothing to make me want to change turntables.
Given the degree of enthusiasm from hobbyists, Technics can't really lose. However what I find a pity is that modern direct-drive decks are a bit unambitious (it's cheaper that way.) Go back to the late 1980s and Goldmund were making several direct drive decks with a first-class suspension and a quite wonderful parallel tracking arm. Two versions were the Studio and ST4. To my ears, the ST4 was one of the finest sounding decks I ever came across.
Making a great drive system is obviously a key condition of a deck (whatever technology is chosen), but a truly great deck also
needs effective isolation and a carefully chosen, sympathetic, arm. Goldmund achieved all of that thirty years ago.
The German Motus DD is offered with and without a sprung suspension; i'd really love to hear them side by side. But I think only the sprung version is on sale in the UK. I think I know what the difference in sound quality would be, but I'm never going to find out!
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2015, 17:37
Yep, I get all that and agree :)
My point earlier was that the 'Quartz Lock', PLL servos, or whatever you want to call it, were responsible for eradicating any real issue of 'cogging' with direct-drive turntables. Regardless, however, I can hear no such effect with my own T/T, so am perfectly happy to 'file it in the bin', as an irrelevance.
Marco.
Cogging is an issue of the motor itself and is not addressed by the drive servo system so no, "quartz Lock" etc didn't cure that. Better design of motors is what made it irrelevant or, it seems with the new coreless motors, maybe non existent. I guess mass in the platter will help loads with this but can not totally remove it. A heavier platter should also mean much better short term speed stability and slower changes to the overall speed, which means the servo is having to do much less to correct short term speed and only has to act to correct slower changes to the speed. Of course more mass also means it takes longer for the platter speed to react to the servo input OR more motor power to correct the error in the same time as a lighter platter....
I've heard Dom's 401 at NWA, With quite a few different carts. You can't say that is not a good one. It just overdoes the slam a bit -for me - and detracts a bit from the music. I mean not enough to ruin it for me and I appreciate some people will like that attribute.
The Linn thing is just gut instinct with me, if presented with that narrow choice; no rationalising it with the specs or back to back demos.
Anyway beyond a basic level of competence the cart and phono stage add/subtract so much that any attempt at comparisons without them being the exact same on both decks is a waste of time, if you ask me. I've never done that but as I said I am not really a turntable enthusiast. I have something beyond the threshold of decent to play my records on so I'm done.
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2015, 17:40
Ah looks like I posted about the same time as Richard (oldpinkman)!
Actually Marco I don't think thats true. Cogging and servos are not really related.
As Jez has pointed out "PLL" and "Quartz" are not mutually exclusive. The main servo differences are plain old vanilla voltage comparison "servo's" whose accuracy is subject to component tolerances, temperature and the like (using a frequency to voltage converter and referencing amplifier) , and the alternative of comparing the frequency from the motors tacho directly with a reference frequency supplied by a quartz crystal.
None of this has anything to do with cogging. It is about providing a steady reliable reference speed. It may be relevant to "hunt" because whether quartz locked or not, the servo output is going to be a voltage variation to the motor (the shove or tug I referred to before). If you have to give big shoves or tugs you risk getting constant overshoot and undershoot.
Cogging is about fixed resistance points at the motors poles. You can feel it when you turn a DC motor by hand as it jumps from pole to pole.
Where there is a "commonality" regarding Direct Drive motors is that both cogging and hunt are likely to be worse in motors which turn slowly compared with ones which turn quickly. If your motor is spinning fast you don't really notice the cogging torque at each pole in the way you do when slowly turning it by hand. Equally, if your motor is turning fast, the servo mechanism gets lots of opportunities every second to make a small adjustment to the motor speed, because it is getting many more speed readings per second. The adjustments are therefore correspondingly small, and the risk of undershoot or overshoot greatly reduced.
Whereas "flywheel mass" doesn't help with servo control (is probably counterproductive) by contrast it does help with the cogging issue. Maybe one reason the LP12 with its massive platter, but nasty cogging AC synchronous motor, didn't suffer so badly from the cogging. Of course, however much its AC motor cogged, it was very speed stable due to being phase locked to AC.
I get all that, Richard, but the point is that any decent Technics SL-1200/1210, or SP10, I've heard has never suffered from any audible effects of 'hunting' or 'cogging', so for me, it's an irrelevance. If you can't hear it, then don't worry about it, in much the same way as the claimed 'pitch wavering', with belt-drives, is an irrelevance to you :)
I think though, this whole debate misses the point. There is a lot more to a turntable than the motor. And both the SL1200 and the mass of other "under appreciated" Japanese turntables were probably not loved for reasons other than issues about motors, cogging and servo hunt. The most obvious difference between an LP12 and and SL1200 is the arm (think about it). And a whole bunch of other things affect how a record player sounds. Like thin ringing platters, hard rubber mats, no suspension, moderate bearings... It wasn't about the drive mechanism. It was about drive mechanisms being no substitute for total record player design. You couldn't take a thin lightweight sows ear of a japanese turntable and make it into a silk purse of an "audiophile" turntable, just by changing its belt drive with direct drive. Quartz PLL or not.
I completely agree.
However, I still consider that even a stock SL-1210 sounds way better than, say, a Rega Planar 2 or 3, or any of the entry-level belt-driven T/Ts that were around in the 70s and 80s, which proves my earlier point that if SL-1200/1210s had been available at dealerships, 'back in the day', for comparison against the former, then the Technics might've been rather more well thought of than it was!
Of course no 'proper' dealer back then would've stocked the Technics, because it was rather ignorantly dismissed as 'Jap Crap', largely due to the flat-earth/'buy British at all costs' UK brainwash.
Yes, of course a well-fettled LP12 or Pink Triangle, fitted with a decent arm, would've outperformed the Technics, but that's not the point. The point is, the latter wasn't considered relevant by 'audiophiles of the day', in order to have been given a chance.
Marco.
Cogging is an issue of the motor itself and is not addressed by the drive servo system so no, "quartz Lock" etc didn't cure that. Better design of motors is what made it irrelevant or, it seems with the new coreless motors, maybe non existent. I guess mass in the platter will help loads with this but can not totally remove it. A heavier platter should also mean much better short term speed stability and slower changes to the overall speed, which means the servo is having to do much less to correct short term speed and only has to act to correct slower changes to the speed. Of course more mass also means it takes longer for the platter speed to react to the servo input OR more motor power to correct the error in the same time as a lighter platter....
Yup, and thanks for the clarification. All that concerns me, however, are the end results. Whatever was in fact the 'cure' for such on my T/T, it's obviously worked! :)
Marco.
I've heard Dom's 401 at NWA, With quite a few different carts. You can't say that is not a good one. It just overdoes the slam a bit -for me - and detracts a bit from the music. I mean not enough to ruin it for me and I appreciate some people will like that attribute.
The Linn thing is just gut instinct with me, if presented with that narrow choice; no rationalising it with the specs or back to back demos.
Anyway beyond a basic level of competence the cart and phono stage add/subtract so much that any attempt at comparisons without them being the exact same on both decks is a waste of time, if you ask me. I've never done that but as I said I am not really a turntable enthusiast. I have something beyond the threshold of decent to play my records on so I'm done.
No worries, that's fine, although I disagree a bit with the bit in bold. Yes, cartridges and phono stages aren't 100% 'transparent', but then neither are CD players or DACs! Every piece of audio equipment, to some degree, is coloured. Therefore, simply choose the coloration you prefer/can live with the most. Simples!
See my post #47 ;)
Marco.
Lol... Not that old chestnut again!
Next time you're round, you'll need to demonstrate to me, using identical recordings on both CD and vinyl (and I have a few), how the sound produced by my T/T, playing the vinyl, is 'less neutral' than my CDP is, playing the CD ;)
Marco.
We'll do that :)
Excellent. If I can clearly hear where you're coming from, I'll give you £100 - and that's a promise!
Marco.
http://www.thevinylfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Technics1.png
They need to sort out the look of it, though. I just think 'draining board' everytime I look at it.
Jo, we still have two separate threads discussing the same thing in the Techiepedia. This one and the other one. They need combining, mate :)
Marco.
sq225917
07-09-2015, 18:22
All decks have their issues, some more than others. The 1210 cogs noticeably when measured, see the diy turntable speed measurement thread on pfm for examples showing this, visible at multiple of the motor poles. Whether you could hear it or not will depend in how sensitive you are to such things. It's only a circa 6hz wobble and quite low in level.
The SP10s cogging was barely measurable in comparison, as low as an EMT in that respect and better in others.
TheGoldring G99 used skewed rotors in its motor in an attempt to similarly eliminate cogging, not sure if the Lenco 99 was the same, never stripped one, but the G99 was very low noise.
I'm sure the new Technics will be a cracker, it'd be nice to see some mass in the platter and a better bearing, heavier engineered.
Hi Simon,
All decks have their issues, some more than others. The 1210 cogs noticeably when measured, see the diy turntable speed measurement thread on pfm for examples showing this, visible at multiple of the motor poles.
The SP10s cogging was barely measurable in comparison, as low as an EMT in that respect and better in others.
Was it a stock SL-1210 that was measured, or a modified one, specifically one with an improved bearing, platter and PSU? If so, I suspect that it would measure as good as any SP10. In fact, if anyone wants to measure mine, in that way, and publish the results, I'd be more than happy :)
Marco.
P.S I suspect, given events elsewhere, that we'll be seeing more of you than usual for the next two months, lol! ;)
Oldpinkman
07-09-2015, 18:40
Marco. Cogging is the motor. Platter mass might change how it measures. But your current platter has a similar mass to the original. The others, including the psu would have no effect.
It is a function of the motor design. You may not notice it audibly, but changing the psu won't change the measurement
Ok, Richard, so what makes an SP10 measure better, in terms of cogging (as Simon claims below), despite it using essentially the same motor design as an SL-1210? If what you're saying is true, then the effect should be inherent in all direct-drive motor designs, including that used in the SP10.
The SP10s cogging was barely measurable in comparison...
Also, would a better bearing not have an effect, as DSJR suggested earlier? Oh, and my MN ETP platter is quite a bit heavier than the stock Technics platter, with a Nagaoka crystal glass mat placed on it. 1kg more, in fact.
What does 'cogging' sound like? :)
Marco.
As someone quietly pointed-out earlier, a deck has to meet a number of criteria to be any good. Speed stability is certainly one of them, but it's only one . If speed stability was all that mattered we would be in real trouble..because few records are truly concentric. Great design usually lies in the balance of a range of engineering features.
Bit like baking a cake...you need good ingredients, but you also need a good cook.
I completely agree, Peter. However, that doesn't answer any of my above questions.
Marco.
It is true that the LP12 was a cut above. But our comparisons were with Rega Planars, mostly, because that is what everyone had. Only your mate's dads had Jap direct drives in their dusty JVC/JBL systems that they clearly had not used since children had appeared 15 years previously, and we just assumed that stuff was old hat and a bit crap because the mags said so.
When the LP12 first got sorted after Julian Vereker had worked on it and developed a proper set-up procedure (this really happened in around 1977), its reproduction qualities with Grace 707 and Supex 900E really did make far more sense of the rather dire recordings and LP's being produced back then - multi-mono mixes and a dry, almost sterile production on so many records. At the time, the LP12/Grace/Supex wasn't as coloured in the bass as the Ittok made things at first. The whole tune-dem bit worked for me, as I found that some products over the decades just enable you to dip into the mixes with greater ease, being able to follow melodies and harmonies right back of the mix without smear (the 'better rhythm' bit :)). Compared to the direct drives of the time, which didn't have dedicated supports back then, the LP12 just sounded clearer in the mid bass, the Jap competition sounding slurred and thick toned in comparison BACK THEN!!!
I feel we've learned so much about all this now (or possibly re-discovered it, more likely). Taking an otherwise great measuring Jap direct drive deck (say, a top Denon, Kenwood, pre-quartz Technics, you know what I mean...) and site it properly, add a sympathetic mat (The Technics SL110 mat looks ok until you see the narrow 'rings' the record perches badly on for example) and a well matched cartridge and you'd be amazed how much better these decks sound TODAY than when new forty or more years ago.
Ivor once told me that had he been 'designing' the LP12 a few years later, he'd have used a direct driven motor and let's face it, the first RD11 and all LP12's are basically blue-printed TD150's!
The only thing really wrong with a current LP12 is the price asked for it - in my opinion. Of course 301's, 401's, Lenco's and TD124's have a slightly different and no less valid take on things and thirty years ago, a good running Garrard absolutely trounced the LP12/Ittok in it's 'Fruitbox' era pre Cirkus (a lightly tuned GL75 Lenco?K9 trounced an Axis/Akito/K9 in comparison too).
I'm hugely fond of my now classic Dual 701. Direct drive, but torque isn't all that high and it behaves a little more like a belt drive in absolute terms.
sq225917
07-09-2015, 19:46
Marco, added mass will reduce cogging effects, it'll widen the Q and lower the Peak levels, but the frequency will be unaffected.
There's 12 poles on the 1210 motor, so you get 12 lots of push and pull per revolution. So every revolution of the platter includes 12 bits too fast and twelve bits too slow. Effectively this overlays everything you play with a circa 6.6hz warble. If you listen to a lot of double bass and piano you might hear it as vibrato on pure tones.
Ok, Simon, got that.
Perhaps then, the added 1kg weight of the glass mat on my MN platter helps eliminate any 'cogging'? Regardless, I cannot hear any negative sonic effect whatsoever with my T/T, related to 'cogging', even what you've just described.
I guess it's similar to folk who use belt-drive T/Ts not hearing the effect of pitch instability? I believe that effect exists in B/Ds, as much as cogging does in D/Ds.
In any case, why would an SP10 measure better than an SL-1210, in term of 'cogging'?
Marco.
I dunno; if you can't hear an artefact, then does it really matter what causes it and how it can be mitigated?
I still dunno what "cogging" is. sounds like some hideous sex torture;)
I dunno; if you can't hear an artefact, then does it really matter what causes it and how it can be mitigated?
No, that was one of my points. There are always lots of 'facts and figures' and theories associated with the working of audio equipment. Whether you can hear the effects of some of them, however, is another matter.
I'm sitting now listening to Alice in Chains 'Live MTV Unplugged', on 180g vinyl, and it's as if the band have held a private gig in the lounge, just for my benefit. However, I'm waiting for the cogging effect to come and spoil it all! ;)
Marco.
I still dunno what "cogging" is. sounds like some hideous sex torture;)
Like I said earlier, think 'dogging', but with badgers. Selfies are allowed, too. You'd love it! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I'll get the queening stool out then lol
What does 'cogging' sound like? :)
Marco.
It sounds like a belt drive enthusiast clutching at straws... ;)
Digital is plagued by solutions for non-existent problems, interesting that analogue has that issue too. But I suppose the doctrine of 'continuous improvement' sells, whether or not we can actually hear the difference.
It sounds like a belt drive enthusiast clutching at straws... ;)
LOL... It's a good job that most of us listen with our ears, and not test equipment!
Right, I'm off to spin some tunes on my pitifully cogged-up-to-the-max Techy...... :D
Marco.
All threads relating to this topic have now been merged.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
08-09-2015, 09:09
It sounds like a belt drive enthusiast clutching at straws... ;)
.
That belt drive enthusiast, in fact being the engineers of Technics direct drive motors. Maybe others clutch at straws.
Why is there this ridiculous partisan battle? As stated and restated there is more to a turntable (much more) than its drive system, and both belt drive and direct drive can work extremely well in a good design. When AK and I discussed his Anni relaunch ideas last we discussed a direct drive version instead of a belt drive -as much to prove how relatively easy it would be to do as anything else. He preferred belt drive at that stage. Maybe the new Technics motor, if not silly money, would change that.
But all this "drive system allegiance" partisan nonsense is - nonsense. A motor cogs. If it turns slowly that cogging is much more obvious than if it turns fast. That doesn't mean it has to be audible to you, or spoil your appreciation of music - but as a question of fact a motor (except maybe unusual very recent designs) will first slow and then ping away from each pole. Its how the bloody things work.
I just can't believe how fixated people seem to be on the drive system and its "sound". Like all belt drives sound one way, and all direct drives another way. I don't naturally categorise turntables that way. There is a lot more to record playing than just spinning the record at the right speed (although I know you believe otherwise Martin). As pointed out by another, most records are not made to that degree of accuracy anyway - just look at wow and flutter measurement "adjustment"
Why is there this ridiculous partisan battle?
There's no such thing that I'm aware of; merely some informed (and not so informed) light-hearted debate/banter. Who brought up the subject of 'cogging'? It stands to reason that if your T/T is the one being accused of exhibiting such traits, that you want to find out more!
In that respect, you could answer the questions I asked in post #102 :)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
08-09-2015, 09:32
There's no such thing that I'm aware of; merely some informed (and not so informed) light-hearted debate/banter. Who brought up the subject of 'cogging'? It stands to reason that if your T/T is the one being accused of exhibiting such traits, that you want to find out more!
In that respect, you could answer the questions I asked in post #102 :)
Marco.
Regarding 'cogging', well actually Technics did bring it up in their press release, summarised below:
The newly-developed direct drive motor has the following features:
•Coreless stator design that eliminates cogging
•Twin rotors that reduce bearing load and minimize tiny rotational fluctuations (wow & flutter), while maintaining high torque
•Oil impregnated high-precision bearings that minimize unwanted vibrations during rotation
The newly-developed direct drive motor has the following features:
•Coreless stator design that eliminates cogging
Lol - ok then, let's examine the above statement. In what way does the new one differ from the design of the motor used in the SL-1210 or SP10? And if cogging can be ELIMINATED, as claimed above, then surely the effect isn't inherent in the design of all turntable motors, which appears to be what Richard is saying.
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
08-09-2015, 10:02
It's clearly marketing talk, in part at least, and that is understandable since Matsushita are in business and presumably intend to remain so by promoting and selling products. There can be no doubt that the SL-1200 motor does produce a characteristic 'cogging' speed plot, as seen on the PFM turntable speed analysis thread (already mentioned by Simon earlier). This is inherent to the SL-1200 design and cannot be avoided - are Technics claiming that they have eliminated this characteristic with their 'new' design? Well, we shall see (or rather, hear) in due course, assuming that the thing does actually make it into production. I presume that Richard is broadly correct in what he says about all motors 'cogging' to some extent, but some are clearly worse than others, and some implementations deal with the characteristic better than others.
I'd love to see a polar speed plot of a modern, carefully designed and engineered DD deck like the STST Motus. I'd be prepared to bet that its true rotational stability (eg not just W&F) is as good as it's possible to be.
Gordon Steadman
08-09-2015, 10:23
I think my DD deck cogged. When I first got it, I tried the motor without the platter on, just resting on a cardboard box. It hopped all over the damned music room:eek:
Put the platter on and it was smooth as silk. Showed how it worked though:)
As long as it wasnt you that cogged all over the music room Gordon...that would be messy:lol:
walpurgis
08-09-2015, 10:36
Some DDs won't rotate until the mass of the platter is in place. The Techies of course won't do anything with the platter removed. 'Cos the platter carries half the motor.
It's clearly marketing talk, in part at least, and that is understandable since Matsushita are in business and presumably intend to remain so by promoting and selling products.
Well, I guess we'll see. Only relevant measurements taken will prove such claims one way or the other, should indeed any be published.
There can be no doubt that the SL-1200 motor does produce a characteristic 'cogging' speed plot, as seen on the PFM turntable speed analysis thread (already mentioned by Simon earlier).
Ok, so what did the 'Quartz-locked' PLL servos, which Matsushita Electric/Panasonic introduced in the 70s, serve to address in terms of the above? Obviously not much then, if we're to take the measurements posted on pfm, in that respect, as representing fact?
I'd love to see a polar speed plot of a modern, carefully designed and engineered DD deck like the STST Motus. I'd be prepared to bet that its true rotational stability (eg not just W&F) is as good as it's possible to be.
Maybe. That doesn't really interest me, though. What interests me is when measurements are translated into 'sonic reality', and in that respect, if the Motus measures considerably better than other D/D turntables, then I want to hear those results, musically! Otherwise, it's just geeks wanking over data....
As a point of note, I've heard the Motus myself on three separate occasions now, and whilst I've been impressed, I've not walked away from a demo thinking that I must have one, which is much the same as I do whenever I hear an SP10: great but nothing special, compared with what I'm used to.
In that respect, it would be interesting comparing the Motus with my modded SL-1210. That would certainly provide some valuable insight into whether or not the design benefits of the former, as you claim, translate into the only benefits that matter in the real world: superior all-round sonic performance, as judged by those listening.
If anyone reading (Guy?) would care to facilitate that test, I'd be more than up for it! :cool:
Marco.
Most Technics Service Manuals list which motor and (if stated) power units were used in which models
SL-1200 MKI = MJL-9A
SL-110 = MJL-9A oder MJL-12A
This are very low torque units; their platter can be stopped with very little finger pressure. With later models Technics increased the torque of those motor units.
SP-10 MKI = MPL-10A - that´s the version without external power supply
SP-10 MK II: Power Unit SH-10E, Motor SFMZ102-01E
SP-10 MK 2a: Power Unit SH-10EA, Motor SFMZ102-01E
SP-10 MK3: Motor SFOP109M11A
SP-15 = SFMZ015-02Z
SP-25 = SFMG520-31A
SL-1210 MKII = SFMG520-31A
SL-1710 MKII = SFMG520-31A
SL-M1 = SFMG520-31A
SL-M2 = SFMG520-31A
SL-M3 = SFMG520-31A
Conclusion: Neither SP-15 nor SP-10 were identical or related to other Technics. They were individual designs but not identically or related to each other.
Motor wise SL-1210 MKII, SL-1710 MKII, SP-25, SL-M1, SL-M2 and SL-M3 are related to each other and similar by technical design and performance perspective. In addition early SL-1200 are technically identical to the SL-110.
As has been mentioned the SP-10 MK3 was the most powerfull motor unit in combination with the most advanced power unit and speed regulation. From a technical perspective it was followed by SP-10 MK-2a and SP-15. From a torque perspective the SP-15 provides a bit more torque then the SP-10 MK 2 but the SP-10 MK2 offers the more advanced speed regulation circuit.
Hi Roger,
And your point with all that is? :scratch:
Marco.
Marco, The most likely reason in answer to your earlier query regarding the disparate cogging measurements pertaining to the SP10 and SL-1210.
Ammonite Audio
08-09-2015, 11:08
Well, I guess we'll see. Only relevant measurements taken will prove such claims one way or the other, should indeed any be published.
Ok, so what did the 'Quartz-locked' PLL servos, which Matsushita Electric/Panasonic introduced in the 70s, serve to address in terms of the above? Obviously not much then, if we're to take the measurements posted on pfm, in that respect, as representing fact?
Maybe. That doesn't really interest me, though. What interests me is when measurements are translated into 'sonic reality', and in that respect, if the Motus measures considerably better than other D/D turntables, then I want to hear those results, musically! Otherwise, it's just geeks wanking over data....
As a point of note, I've heard the Motus myself on three separate occasions now, and whilst I've been impressed, I've not walked away from a demo thinking that I must have one, which is much the same as I do whenever I hear an SP10.
In that respect, it would be interesting comparing the Motus with my modded SL-1210. That would certainly provide some valuable insight into whether or not the design benefits of the former, as you claim, translate into the only benefits that matter in the real world: superior all-round sonic performance, as judged by those listening.
If anyone reading (Guy?) would care to facilitate that test, I'd be more than up for it! :cool:
Marco.
Ah, there we will have to remain in different camps, since my (brief) exposure to the Motus left me deeply impressed. If I was in the market for a new turntable in that (quite sensible) price bracket, the Motus would be first on the list.
That belt drive enthusiast, in fact being the engineers of Technics direct drive motors. Maybe others clutch at straws.
Why is there this ridiculous partisan battle? As"
There isn't. My comments, as always, should be taken with a pinch of salt and a sense of humour.
Oldpinkman
08-09-2015, 11:32
Marco
This thread is ripping ahead too fast for me to keep up since I have tons on. But I know you don't like to be ignored. I think you had 2 points o/s
1) Why is the SP10 different to the SL1210 - they use different motors ?
2) I said all motors cog - I did put in brackets except perhaps clever new designs - that would include the new technics. I have not yet seen any details, so I don't know whether no cogging means that, or means "barely perceptible" cogging. Be interesting to understand how it works
Generally on others - all motors cog, but in some you notice it less, either due to flywheel effects or high rotational speed and a rubber band to filter it.
And what did the PLL quartz gismos do. Nothing for cogging. Cogging (torque) strictly refers to the motor design. Changing the motor, or the physical load it carries (inertia) will change how you notice the cogging. Playing with the power you feed it won't. The PLL malarky dealt with how speed drift was dealt with. A DC motor is not phase locked and its speed will drift unless there is some sort of feedback loop. The early SL1200 had a servo mechanism which relied on converting the tacho output into a voltage to be compared in a differential amplifier, and to keep it simple, they go off song quite easily. The PLL thingy uses a quartz crystal as a reference (like in a digital watch) and compares the pulses from the motor tacho to that reference oscillation. I
Its much more accurate. It does the keeping the speed constant thing better. It can't help with the electromagnetic notchiness of the motor itself.
Please don't ask me to respond to anything else until I am safely installed in Granes :(
Marco, The most likely reason in answer to your earlier query regarding the disparate cogging measurements pertaining to the SP10 and SL-1210.
No worries - I getcha :)
Marco.
Ah, there we will have to remain in different camps, since my (brief) exposure to the Motus left me deeply impressed. If I was in the market for a new turntable in that (quite sensible) price bracket, the Motus would be first on the list.
No worries, Hugo, you're entitled to your opinion. I was impressed with it, but not bowled over by it, certainly anything like to the extent that I felt it made my own T/T sound broken. If that were the case, I'd have pursued owning a Motus.
Thing is, however, you haven't heard my turntable for a very, very long time, and when it was in a somewhat, shall we say, 'vastly reduced state of ability'. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that if you heard it now, you'd still not prefer the Motus, *but* your judgement criteria, with which to form an opinion on what a modified 1210 is capable of, perhaps needs some updating? :)
That is why I'd love to carry out the proposed comparison, and preferably at a show (the next Scalford one, maybe?), where both T/Ts could be demonstrated in the same system, and then let others (including you) be the judge, in terms of whether the design principles you rate so much of the Motus, translates into it sonically outperforming my 'old clunker' - or indeed anyone else's similarly modified one ;)
Marco.
sq225917
08-09-2015, 18:33
Getting back to the Technics press release, there's a bit of bullshit in there. The claim for the coreless stator design eliminating cogging is one such claim.
Cored of coreless makes no difference to cogging, only where and how the field is applied. Skewing the rotor or stator will get you most of the way there. After all, let's not forget the 1210 motor has a coreless stator already... It does seem like rather a big fishing trip on their part...
I'm keen to see it in the flesh though.
As noted earlier the sl1200 motor is quite different to the 3 used in the SP10 series, the only thing in common is the type of construction used in the MK3 sp10 where the platter forms part of the motor. In the Mk2 and 2a the motor generates its own reference signal that is passed to a phase comparator where it is compared to a temp controlled Quartz reference signal. A phase mismatch error generates a speed correction signal for the motor, very neat.
I believe the cogging differences noted in the PFM thread are down to the number of poles used in the respective motors. The sl1200 uses a 12 pole motor which inherently produces large fluctuations in the torque curve, the sp10 in comparison uses a 15 pole motor which along with 9 pole motors produces the least torque fluctuation. More info here on this:
http://m.machinedesign.com/motorsdrives/reducing-cogging-torque-brushless-motors
Thanks for that, chaps. Thing is, it just proves once again how much the performance of a turntable is down to the SUM of its constituent parts, as opposed to the effect of any single part (or parts) in isolation - and also how easy it is for those of a technical persuasion to become bogged down with measurements.
An SP10, due to its superior motor, with extra poles, may produce less measurable 'cogging'/torque fluctuation, but that alone (or anything else that's measurably or technically superior about an SP10, in comparison with an SL-1210) doesn't necessarily guarantee a better sound, simply because there are too many other variables involved, not least of which, as far as an SP10 is concerned, is how it is mounted, and of course which tonearm is used on it.
The fact is, regardless of its technical superiority, I've yet to hear any SP10 that I'd swap my modified SL-1210 for, and often the owners of the former, when such a comparison has taken place, fully understand and appreciate why that is so - and it goes back again to what I said about the performance of a turntable ultimately representing the SUM of its parts.
Clearly, in my circumstances (and I suspect in others too, who've upgraded their SL-1200s and 1210s to the same level), the modifications I've carried out to my T/T, to key areas of its design, and the fundamental improvements gained from that, appear to outweigh the effect of the areas where an SP10 is technically superior - and that's even before we consider whether any T/T that contains over 40-year old electronic components, without some sort of major overhaul, is ever likely to be performing at 100% of its original capability.
Anyway, as others here are, I shall also watch continued developments with interest, as to what Technics come up with, in terms of their latest direct-drive turntable design. If the finished article is 'sensibly priced', as I outlined earlier, and once auditioned, fundamentally outperforms my own T/T, then quite simply, I will buy one and fit my Ortofon arm onto it :)
Marco.
thinker10
09-09-2015, 05:16
Hi,
Nobody mention there lathe motor the SP-02 ...
They are 48 poles not 12 !!
I don't know much about ...
What year was it released ?
It has the most torque of them all
Not sure about cogging on that one
Thank You
Jean
Oldpinkman
09-09-2015, 06:46
Anyway, as others here are, I shall also watch continued developments with interest, as to what Technics come up with, in terms of their latest direct-drive turntable design. If the finished article is 'sensibly priced', as I outlined earlier, and once auditioned, fundamentally outperforms my own T/T, then quite simply, I will buy one and fit my Ortofon arm onto it :)
Marco.
No need to go throwing the baby out with the bathwater Marco. If the new motor is significantly better, just buy a new motor (someone will make an after-market mount) and keep an authentic SL1210 with another mod. ;)
What would be really interesting would be if Technics, with their new found enthusiasm for analogue audio, decide to relaunch the U205 cartridge. And maybe offer replacement stylus assemblies for the old units. May not be such a good idea to sell my Jico stylus version right now after all. :scratch:
Although - I can only ever use one cartridge at a time, so what I am doing with 5 of the bloody things I really don't know. Come on Richard - declutter!!!!! :(
I am happy to see the return of Technics into the turntable market.
Even if this deck is a reference model at an elevated price, it gives a glimmer of hope that they may resurrect theSL1200.
The estimated price puts the new deck out of my reach whilst remaining married . Even if I were to buy a new deck, it's likely to be a rubber band driven model.
I already have a reasonable Direct Drive, so I would be happier trying something else.
As for cogging, it exists with the majority of motors, and as stated before, the faster it spins, the less noticeable it is. However, you will start to introduce vibration from a higher RPM. It's all about compromises. Another question about cogging - surely this will be more noticeable with a high drag bearing? A heavier platter will help smooth it due to the flywheel effect, but if using a lightweight platter and a high drag bearing on an SL1200 you should be able hear this phenomenon? It should lead to pitch instability?
I can't say I ever noticed it. I certainly don't notice it in my current set up. Maybe I am not sensitive to it.
No need to go throwing the baby out with the bathwater Marco. If the new motor is significantly better, just buy a new motor (someone will make an after-market mount) and keep an authentic SL1210 with another mod. ;)
Great idea, providing that the new motor is retrofittable to the SL-1210. However, it would also depend if Technics are going to produce a whole new T/T as well, using that motor, particularly if a new plinth design also enters the equation.
If so, such a T/T would need to be auditioned, as a 'complete solution' in itself, against what I have now, before I decided on what to do, if anything at all.
Marco.
pure sound
11-09-2015, 11:39
I'd be very surprised if, having launched a Statement high end deck, there wasn't some trickle down of the technology that could be used in a revamped 1200 series type design. That is generally the way these larger Japanese companies have tended to operate.
An interesting picture of the motor has been posted on TAS by Dave Cawley - http://theaudiostandard.net/post/54105
Their facebook page has several nice teaser pics.
https://www.facebook.com/technics.global
Techno Commander
01-01-2016, 21:56
When you say Technics, most people think sl 1200. The DJ deck has many fans and some companies offer bits to tweak it. It may been build like a tank, but that's because it's meant to withstand DJ use. It will never be a hi-fi TT in my book, but I do believe it can be a fine entry level TT for home stereo use
You are so wrong.
The Technics 1200 was designed for home hi-fi use in the early 1980's. Long before it found its way into DJ and club use.
Stratmangler
01-01-2016, 22:16
You are so wrong.
The Technics 1200 was designed for home hi-fi use in the early 1980's. Long before it found its way into DJ and club use.
Go back further than that - October 1972 was when the SL-1200 was released.
....as a hifi turntable :)
Marco.
Bigman80
02-01-2016, 08:16
I've always liked the look of 1200/1210s but was put off by their DJ origin which I'm now learning is false !!!! If this is the case I may have to be on the lookout for one.
The SL120 was for home use, the sl1200 mk2, which emerged in 1979 was intended as a broadcast deck for radio stations.
The DJs adopted them as the tank-like build quality meant they could stand being schlepped about and a bit of hard, consistent use,
Nowadays the 'DJ deck' description is just used by the odd enthusiast who has buyer's remorse over the thousands they paid out for some belt-drive clunker ;)
Bigman80
02-01-2016, 11:26
The SL120 was for home use, the sl1200 mk2, which emerged in 1979 was intended as a broadcast deck for radio stations.
The DJs adopted them as the tank-like build quality meant they could stand being schlepped about and a bit of hard, consistent use,
Nowadays the 'DJ deck' description is just used by the odd enthusiast who has buyer's remorse over the thousands they paid out for some belt-drive clunker ;)
Lol I'm using a "belt drive clunker" lmao.
Made me chuckle.
I'm gonna have to keep my open for a bargain me thinks.
Just a joke, But I do think some belt drives are very expensive for the simple and in some cases not so great engineering they have. I also have a Systemdek belt drive which is not a clunker and which I would describe as different rather than better than my SL1200. I just prefer how the SL1200 sounds.
The question I've always had is how do the SL1400, SL1500 and SL1600 compare to the SL1200? They appear on ebay often and at a fraction of the price of the SL1200.
Bigman80
02-01-2016, 12:44
Just a joke, But I do think some belt drives are very expensive for the simple and in some cases not so great engineering they have. I also have a Systemdek belt drive which is not a clunker and which I would describe as different rather than better than my SL1200. I just prefer how the SL1200 sounds.
Ha ha I know and I agree. I have a Inspire Quest which cost £875 new. I'm not saying it isn't a good turntable because it is. The sound is very very good and it looks great but that's a lot of money for what it's made with. RB202 - £150, rega bearing and sub platter - £25, rega motor - £30, plinth - £200 and a lid for £60.
Seems a lot doesn't it especially when you factor in how much engineering goes into a technics 1210 for £500.
It does. Sat next to my friend's Rega 3 which cost the same (at used price) you would not think they would be anything like a comparable price.
Which is not to say the Rega does not sound very good since it does.
AS to the SL1300 et al my understanding is that the SL1200/1210 has a better motor so is quieter and the hefty rubber/aluminium plinth which aids damping. You can get good results from the cheaper ones but I would find the extra for a 1200 if you can.
Mike_New
02-01-2016, 22:49
The single main reason that the SL was adopted for DJing as I understand it from a person in the industry.
Is that the SL platter with it's direct drive motor can be stopped and even reversed without any damage to the electronics or drive.
Try doing this to a belt drive or friction drive TT. In fact the SL can be really abused in terms of what it can withstand
in terms of the motor design.
sq225917
02-01-2016, 23:15
It's used for dj ING because of the low platter mass and associated fast take up. Fast pick up equals good scratching performance. Plain and simple.
Yes, whilst all that may be true, let's not forget that plenty of discerning DJs chose Techies because they *sounded* bloody good pumping out 12" dance records in clubs, and did so in a way largely unequalled by rival T/Ts! :gig:
Contrary to the often snobbish mindset of audiophiles, some DJs (the true dedicated professionals) are just as concerned (perhaps even more so) about sound quality as they are... [Yes, let that one sink in for a bit] ;)
Furthermore, professional broadcasting houses, such as the BBC, in the days when sound quality mattered, wouldn't have used SL-1200/1210s in 100s of their radio stations (alongside SP10s in the more prestigious ones) if they sounded crap!
Today, thanks to folk like Mike New, Paul Hynes, etc, audiophiles, such as many of us here, can now harness the unique sonic capabilities of high-quality direct dive T/Ts, such as the SL-1200/1210, and extend them further in a home environment, by taking advantage of the significant sonic benefits offered by upgraded bearings, platters and PSUs, thus transforming the Technics into a genuine high-end audiophile T/T, able to compete with the best, at almost any price.
:exactly:
Marco.
Haven't looked back since switching my Rega P3-24 to a Techie, with all mods now nicely settled in.
Floyddroid came round the other day and I gave him a blast with a dl-110 on it. He seemed to like it.
sq225917
03-01-2016, 10:30
I know lots of sound and lighting technicians, none of them ever picked Technics for the sound. They picked them because they worked, were robust and had a huge dealer, spares, repairs network.
There simply was no other viable choice for 30 years.
This chose their speaker rigs and installers based on sound quality. The 1210 was never anything but a workhorse, ime.
I've known a fair few DJs over the years ( I know one bloke who has five SL1210s!) and I agree. That's not to say that an SL1200 is not in its element banging out some dance music but if you were a DJ and you decided not to get sl1200s what would you have used instead? SP10s? - expensive! There are loads of OEM DJ decks around now but that wasn't always the case and they are always going to be Skodas compared to the SL1200 Volkswagon in any case.
'Scratching' didn't start until after the SL1200 had already become the standard AFAIK. The build quality, the pitch slider, the cuing light and the affordable price, these were all factors involved too.
Lol... That shows how much you guys know about such things! Where's Adam when you need him? ;)
There are indeed [and were] other quality direct-drive T/Ts around to rival the Technics (for DJ purposes), namely from the likes of Vestax and Stanton, the latter which has even more torque than a 1210, so you'd think would be a big plus point for DJs, but despite that, many still chose the Technics for its sound quality.
If you've only known 'professionals' who chose SL-1200s/1210s because they were 'workhorses', then you only know half the story, as there are many discerning/specialist DJs or 'turntablists', throughout the world (although perhaps not so much these days), who use them primarily for how they sound, taking the 'workhorse' thing as a given.
It's all out there on the 'Net, if you want to educate yourself and widen your horizons! :)
Marco.
Is that the SL platter with it's direct drive motor can be stopped and even reversed without any damage to the electronics or drive.
Remember that they use a slipmat so the platter can just keep turning.
There are [and were] other quality decks around to rival the Technics, namely from the likes of Numark and Stanton, the latter which has even more torque than a 1210, so you'd think would be a big plus point for DJs, but despite that, many still chose the Technics for its sound quality.
.
Now there are but back in 1979? The Stantons and so forth are all based on the SL1200 design. They came along later. The Stanton turntables that look like SL1200s came out in about 2005.
The SL1200 was intended to be an affordable broadcast deck for second-tier use or where the expense of installing an SP10 or an EMT couldn't be justified. I doubt that in the typical club through the typical club sound system that anyone would be able to distinguish between an SL1200 and a Numark or Stanton. I'd put money on it in fact.
In the home with a hi-fi cartridge fitted, different matter.
Bigman80
03-01-2016, 11:51
Lol. Started something now !! I have played with a 1210 a few times and was always impressed sound wise. It may have been DNB but it sounded SO much better than my dads TT (pioneer) when I was a kid.
Incidentally, in terms of the BBC's use of SL-1200/1210s, for broadcasting purposes, this would've mostly been at the level of local radio stations (BBC Manchester, Leicester, etc), rather than national studios, where the available budget wasn't sufficient to fund the use of SP10s (or EMTs).
For simple evidence of this fact (apart from carrying out some appropriate research), just look at the contents of the many auctions which take place for sales of ex-BBC merchandise, and you'll see tons of 'Techies' listed!
And the reason that they were used wasn't *just* because they were 'reliable workhorses', but rather because in the days when the BBC set very high standards for the sound quality of their music broadcasts, the equipment employed had to be up to the task (hence their use of not only Technics turntables, but the likes of Studer mini-disk and CD players), amongst all manner of other high-quality audio equipment.
Marco.
having gone from an AR the turnatble to an lp12 which i really like and is much better than the AR (IMO) iam very tempted to try a DD turntable,after a purchase of some rather nice speakers i should point out :eyebrows:
So if i went for a technics what in standard trim can i expect?
am i going to have to throw some money at it to better the linn and if so how much and on what?
That's what reading the archive in this section of the forum is about, Jamie (as those questions have been answered many times), so pour yourself a beer, sit down, and get reading! ;)
Marco.
No worries, dude. If once you've done that, you've still got some questions, just ask! :)
Essentially though, a stock Technics isn't going to completely outperform an LP12, although it will in some areas, notably pitch stability.
Marco.
DD's...are you mad;)
having gone from an AR the turnatble to an lp12 which i really like and is much better than the AR (IMO) iam very tempted to try a DD turntable,after a purchase of some rather nice speakers i should point out :eyebrows:
So if i went for a technics what in standard trim can i expect?
am i going to have to throw some money at it to better the linn and if so how much and on what?
Stratmangler
03-01-2016, 12:34
Incidentally, in terms of the BBC's use of SL-1210s, for broadcasting purposes, this would've mostly been at the level of local radio stations (BBC Manchester, Leicester, etc), rather than national studios, where the available budget wasn't sufficient to fund the use of SP10s (or EMTs).
For simple evidence of this fact (apart from carrying out some appropriate research), just look at the contents of the many auctions which take place for sales of ex-BBC merchandise, and you'll see tons of 'Techies' listed!
And the reason that they were used wasn't *just* because they were 'reliable workhorses', but rather because in the days when the BBC set very high standards for the sound quality of their music broadcasts, the equipment employed had to be up to the task (hence their use of not only Technics turntables, but the likes of Studer mini-disk and CD players), amongst all manner of other high-quality audio equipment.
Marco.
I've corrected the serious error for you.
BBC Radio Manchester has always been broadcast from the BBC's national broadcasting site in Manchester, and will have been equipped from the same stock cupboard as the national programmes.
There was a shed full of serious equipment auctioned off when the Oxford Road site was closed down a few years ago.
All the broadcasting is now done from Media City, on Salford Quays, so it basically moved about 3 miles down the road.
DD's...are you mad;)
possibly! lol
I've corrected the serious error for you.
BBC Radio Manchester has always been broadcast from the BBC's national broadcasting site in Manchester, and will have been equipped from the same stock cupboard as the national programmes.
There was a shed full of serious equipment auctioned off when the Oxford Road site was closed down a few years ago.
All the broadcasting is now done from Media City, on Salford Quays, so it basically moved about 3 miles down the road.
Thanks for that, Chris, and noted.
However, I have seen SL-1210s being sold in BBC auctions, and stated as coming from 'BBC Manchester', however they could've been used in some of the smaller control rooms. Undoubtedly, in the bigger stations and main studios, SP10s (or EMTs) were the norm, certainly during the 70s and 80s, where before that Garrard 301s, 401s, TD124s and Gates units would've existed.
The important point is that 'Techies' were considered as good enough for use by the BBC in the first place, in the days when they were renowned for the sound quality of their output. This ably proves (apart from all other existing statistical evidence) that the SL-1200/1210 was certainly not just a 'DJ deck'! :nono:
Only those with considerable ignorance in this matter, or some form of an agenda, would take that stance.
Marco.
DD's...are you mad...
Why? Trust me, if you heard mine (or any other well sorted one), you wouldn't be saying that! ;)
Marco.
Why? Trust me, if you heard mine (or any other well sorted one), you wouldn't be saying that! ;)
Marco.
Twas a jest mate.... Im using one myself
Yes, I note that the Thorens has recently been 'deposed'... ;)
Marco.
Yes, I note that the Thorens has recently been 'deposed'... ;)
Marco.
Thorens still wins re sonics but the jbe is very good solid deck. Could hit the thing with an axe and it wont move. Sounds pretty decent too tbh.needs a bit of work eventually on the psu but it stable at moment...its also very pretty indeed. One of the nicest ive seen and a credit to its past owners...and thanks again to Dakek Neil for getting it to me. Forever grateful
Glad you're enjoying it, mate :)
Marco.
Incidentally, here's an example of an SL-1200 being sold as ex-stock from a BBC radio station: http://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/auction-catalogues/ramco/catalogue-id-ramco-10019/lot-ade5a5fc-e0bb-40c6-aae8-a4c80090127b
From the link:
Due to the modernisation of local radio stations Ramco are disposing of the surplus equipment on behalf of the BBC...
This sort of stuff is not exactly difficult to find, if you open yer peepers properly! ;)
Marco.
Techno Commander
03-01-2016, 14:59
Go back further than that - October 1972 was when the SL-1200 was released.
Thank you for the correction. :)
Techno Commander
03-01-2016, 15:08
Nowadays the 'DJ deck' description is just used by the odd enthusiast who has buyer's remorse over the thousands they paid out for some belt-drive clunker ;)
I have never been a huge fan of the springy boxes and rubber band drives. :)
sq225917
03-01-2016, 15:54
Lol... That shows how much you guys know about such things! Where's Adam when you need him? ;)
There are indeed [and were] other quality direct-drive T/Ts around to rival the Technics (for DJ purposes), namely from the likes of Numark and Stanton, the latter which has even more torque than a 1210, so you'd think would be a big plus point for DJs, but despite that, many still chose the Technics for its sound quality.
Marco.
Marco, For 30+ years there was only the 1210, there was no other options, nothing with pitch slider, strobe, little light and with a drive system that was ok with scratching. it was chosen because it worked. You can only make the claim that it was chosen for sound quality when there were sound quality alternatives available. And that's mid noughties...
I'm sure plenty of people liked the quality of the sound of the 1210, but every single one that was used in a dj setting was used for its features. You can love the sound all you like but if it won't cue up easily it's NFU.
I'd need to research it more, but I'm pretty sure that Stanton were producing turntables at the same time as Technics were, during the 1970s (they were certainly producing cartridges then), and their T/Ts had more torque too, than the SL-1200/1210, yet many DJs still opted to use the Technics.
However, I'm not arguing with the basic point you're making, simply saying that SL-1200s and 1210s weren't *only* chosen by DJs for durability, etc. Many were chosen because they sounded bloody good, too - and that's a fact! :)
Marco.
I’ve been following this thread with some interest but my slant on the value of a ‘Techie’ relaunch may be a little left field.:eyebrows:
Many here have been into vinyl for ages and some are happy to adjust springs and fiddle and fettle and fuss to get the great sound they want from vinyl and know that it’s capable of. Me, I left those frustrations behind for quite a while when I moved rather early on to the dark side and adopted the silvery discs, for convenience and a quite good sound.
But I couldn’t stay away from the lure of real vinyl sound and eventually dragged my old AR out of retirement and spent some money and many months extensively refurbishing, re-belting, adjusting springs etc. etc. etc. However, the frustrations of getting the old TT to perform well were huge and great sound was elusive. Nor did I enjoy the thought of researching alternative TT’s that might replace it. Then miraculously, I discovered the Technics 1210 and even stock standard before later mods, it was fantastic and moreover it was essentially ‘plug and play’.
I can’t help but think that if vinyl resurgence is to really become re-established in a modern, high speed, instant gratification, convenience world, a Technics DD ‘it just works’ standard exemplifies what is needed IMO for a new generation of serious vinyl converts (those not already on AOS:doh::D). Sure, the manual ritual of putting on and turning over a record will still be needed but I can see the convenience and simplicity of the Technics design being potentially a big selling point. Yes I know good belt drives will also appeal and can be simple and reliable too but somehow the very functional Techie arrangement really appeals to me.:)
Well, I would not buy one even if the cost was reasonable. I already have a direct drive at a reasonable standard.
I would be more tempted by a stretchy rubber band drive, or idler drive deck for something a little different. One of each would be nice, but maybe I am just being greedy.
Beobloke
04-01-2016, 12:29
I'd need to research it more, but I'm pretty sure that Stanton were producing turntables at the same time as Technics were, during the 1970s (they were certainly producing cartridges then), and their T/Ts had more torque too, than the SL-1200/1210, yet many DJs still opted to use the Technics.
Marco.
Stanton did do a turntable or two back in the 1970s but these were hifi oriented belt drive units. When it came to party and wedding DJing in that era, the sort of decks one would find in use were various BSRs, Garrards and Goldring Lencos depending on how rich the DJ was! The big name in consoles was Citronic and these used both BSR and Garrard decks, as well as some units of their own design ( which,ironically, were belt drive!)
In a more professional club setting, the SL1200 had no real competitors and so was widely used, but again, some professional setups did use Lencos.
In radio studios, Garrard 401s, various Gates and Technics SP10s were the most common. These were generally chosen for their robustness and reliability as the main criteria.
Stanton did do a turntable or two back in the 1970s but these were hifi oriented belt drive units. When it came to party and wedding DJing in that era, the sort of decks one would find in use were various BSRs, Garrards and Goldring Lencos depending on how rich the DJ was! The big name in consoles was Citronic and these used both BSR and Garrard decks, as well as some units of their own design ( which,ironically, were belt drive!)
In a more professional club setting, the SL1200 had no real competitors and so was widely used, but again, some professional setups did use Lencos.
Interesting, Adam. Didn't know that DJs used Lencos. Thanks for that :)
Any idea when the SL-1200/1210 was modified for the DJ market, and thus started being equipped with pitch sliders, etc? Because I doubt that the solely hi-fi T/T introduced in 1972 would've featured much at discos or wedding parties.......
Marco.
Pitch sliders were pretty standard on Japanese DD turntables from the mid-70s onward. I'm not sure what the hi-fi use for these were but my uncles always used them to practice guitar. You just move the slider up or down a little when musicians are tuned a half-step up or down and keep your guitar in standard tuning.
On older idlers that play 78s, pitch sliders are useful since there was no real standard and those records were cut at many different speeds. But most Japanese DDs didn't play 78s.
PaulStewart
04-01-2016, 22:21
Incidentally, in terms of the BBC's use of SL-1200/1210s, for broadcasting purposes, this would've mostly been at the level of local radio stations (BBC Manchester, Leicester, etc), rather than national studios, where the available budget wasn't sufficient to fund the use of SP10s (or EMTs).
For simple evidence of this fact (apart from carrying out some appropriate research), just look at the contents of the many auctions which take place for sales of ex-BBC merchandise, and you'll see tons of 'Techies' listed!
And the reason that they were used wasn't *just* because they were 'reliable workhorses', but rather because in the days when the BBC set very high standards for the sound quality of their music broadcasts, the equipment employed had to be up to the task (hence their use of not only Technics turntables, but the likes of Studer mini-disk and CD players), amongst all manner of other high-quality audio equipment.
Marco.
Don't forget that every DJ and music producer at the BBC had a turntable in his.her office, for playlist evaluations and program planning. A lot of them were also provided with kit at home too. My ex worked in the Radio One music library next door to the main broadcasting house back in the day and part of her job was to take the requisitions to the producer or DJ's office. She told me they had Garrards and these were replaced by the Techies.
Yup, no doubt true, Paul - and indeed another interesting little factoid to add to the discussion :)
I also know people connected with the BBC who have told me that SL-1200s and 1210s were used for the actual broadcasting of music too, but at the smaller local radio stations. He mentioned, however, that that some modifications were carried out to the T/Ts, but I can't remember what. Next time I see him I'll ask.
Marco.
Pitch sliders were pretty standard on Japanese DD turntables from the mid-70s onward. I'm not sure what the hi-fi use for these were but my uncles always used them to practice guitar. You just move the slider up or down a little when musicians are tuned a half-step up or down and keep your guitar in standard tuning.
On older idlers that play 78s, pitch sliders are useful since there was no real standard and those records were cut at many different speeds. But most Japanese DDs didn't play 78s.
Yup, I believe that Kevin B, from KAB, has developed a 78rpm mod for the Technics, using that very facility :)
What I'm trying to nail down, however, is exactly when did the (solely hi-fi) turntable, which was launched by National Panasonic in 1972, known as the SL-1200, become the de-facto standard choice for DJs?
Marco.
It was always my understanding that it happened pretty much immediately after it's release in 1978. Disco was big and DJs were already beatmatching but it was somewhat of a novelty. The pitch slider on SL-1200 made it a lot easier for them. I've always been more curious but what tables were used for beatmatching before the SL-1200 when it was more of a novelty.
Remember that the SL-1200 was released in 1972, not 1978 ;)
So then I wonder did it take six years for DJs to cotton onto how good it was? Moreover, one wonders would it have remained in production for so long if they hadn't embraced its use so heavily?
Marco
walpurgis
04-01-2016, 23:18
I can't speak for radio DJs Marco, but I worked with one of the biggest mobile discos in London back then and the main deck in use was the Garrard AP75 and AP76 (or if you were cheap, SP25s). Cartridges tended to be ceramic types and the Decca Deram was a favourite. These items were chosen because they were inexpensive and rugged. Weight was also a significant consideration. The overall sound quality, although taken into account to an extent, was not the overriding factor. The Techie would not have been considered.
Interesting Geoff :)
The Techie would not have been considered.
Why would that have been? Was it considered then as inferior to the Garrards you've mentioned?
Marco.
walpurgis
04-01-2016, 23:30
Interesting Geoff :)
Why would that have been? Was it considered as inferior to the Garrards you've mentioned?
Marco.
No. The SL-1200 was not really 'on the radar' back in the early seventies. I was aware of Matsushita, although the products shipped here were branded National Panasonic at the time. If I recall the Technics name for their non budget gear was introduced around that time. The Garrards, whilst dependable, would have been inferior in every way apart from their portability. I still have a fondness for the AP75 and AP76 though.
Ok, noted. It sounds to me then like the DJ's 'adoption' of the SL-1200/1210 manifested itself more in the 1980s, in which case it would've received competition from numerous other 'DJ decks' at the time, some of which Adam has mentioned, all of which would've been suitably robust for the purpose, and featured pitch controls, etc.
The Technics, however, I believe was seen as the choice of 'discerning enthusiasts', within the DJ community, and thus was selected moreover for its sonic performance, as they could've easily used one of the other 'DJ decks' around at the time instead, which ticked the 'suitably robust'/'workhorse' box accordingly - and at less cost :)
Marco.
walpurgis
05-01-2016, 00:00
It sounds to me then like the DJ's 'adoption' of the SL-1200/1210 manifested itself more in the 1980s
Marco.
That is so true. It was the determined and continued use of vinyl by DJs, largely on Techies (if they had the budget), that led to the resurgence in the popularity of records and record playing equipment over the last few years. The Hi-Fi brigade and general audio consumers were all out for CD music after about 1982, but many DJs clung onto vinyl defiantly.
I was one of those who took advantage of the slump in vinyl popularity in the eighties and stocked up on some 'goodies' at the time and was late in using CDs. You could buy a good used Decca, SME arm, Garrard 301 or Ortofon SPU back then for forty quid. I still use and love CDs and also my records and turntables. :)
Yup, in many ways, DJs not only saved vinyl, but also the Techy itself, ensuring that it remained in production for many more years than I fear it would've done, had it remained solely in its original incarnation as a hi-fi turntable.
Marco.
Remember that the SL-1200 was released in 1972, not 1978 ;)
So then I wonder did it take six years for DJs to cotton onto how good it was? Moreover, one wonders would it have remained in production for so long if they hadn't embraced its use so heavily?
Marco
The Mk2 released in 1978 had the pitch slider, the Mk1 did not.
Ah, well then, that most likely would've coincided with when DJs, in their numbers, started adopting its use :)
The annoying thing, even though there's little doubt that had it not been for DJs worldwide using them in their 1000s, the SL-1200 would have 'died' much earlier than it did, is that had it stuck to its original roots, as simply being an audiophile T/T (without pitch control), aimed solely at hi-fi enthusiasts (as it was from 1972-78), it wouldn't have suffered so negatively since, in the eyes of the audiophile fraternity, from being associated with DJs.
Thus it would've always been regarded as a 'proper' hi-fi turntable (which it is), rather than simply a 'workhorse for professionals', tainted by the disco scene, and thus guilty by association :rolleyes:
Not to worry though, we know differently, and only blinkered fools, or those with an agenda, think otherwise.
I'll tell you what Technics should never have discontinued so quickly, and that was the SL-120, sold minus a tonearm. That was a wonderful thing, and had it hung around longer and been available in recent times, would've gone a long way towards convincing more people of just how good the Technics was, simply because it would've allowed the easy use of a top-notch tonearm, instead of the rather inferior item that they decided to package the T/T with later.
It's rather interesting, isn't it, how this:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/907/HuocpU.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7HuocpUj)
...was regarded in its day as a high-end turntable (expensive, too), and only a few years later, when fitted with a cheap tonearm and pitch slider, it became (to some) nothing but an inferior 'DJ deck'. Shows you how folk are easily influenced by superfluous factors that, in reality, have no real bearing on the inherent quality of a turntable design.
Marco.
The SL120 didn't have the Quartz Lock on the motor, though.
I agree that they would have stopped production long ago if it wasn't for the DJs. By the late 'Eighties the radio stations were digital or going digital and the UK TT market was all Linn and Rega. Then by the early '90s vinyl started disappearing from the record shops...if you asked someone to predict in 1995 where we would be now they would never have got it right in a million years.
The SL120 didn't have the Quartz Lock on the motor, though.
Even more reason then to consider the later iteration of the Technics, as a proper hi-fi turntable, as with the Quartz locking it would've been superior to the 'dedicated audiophile T/T' it replaced! ;)
I agree that they would have stopped production long ago if it wasn't for the DJs. By the late 'Eighties the radio stations were digital or going digital and the UK TT market was all Linn and Rega. Then by the early '90s vinyl started disappearing from the record shops...if you asked someone to predict in 1995 where we would be now they would never have got it right in a million years.
Indeed - although I never did buy into the 'CD/digital was automatically superior' nonsense, as was so heavily marketed to us in the 80s (and disposed of my T/T and record collection as a result), perhaps because since day one of me being into hi-fi, I've always owned a quality turntable, and most importantly, a free mind... :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
05-01-2016, 13:13
Ok, noted. It sounds to me then like the DJ's 'adoption' of the SL-1200/1210 manifested itself more in the 1980s, in which case it would've received competition from numerous other 'DJ decks' at the time, some of which Adam has mentioned, all of which would've been suitably robust for the purpose and featured pitch controls, etc.
The Technics, however, I believe was seen as the choice of the 'discerning enthusiasts', within the DJ fraternity, and thus was selected moreover for its sonic performance, as they could've easily used one of the other 'DJ decks' around at the time instead, which ticked the 'suitably robust'/'workhorse' box accordingly - and at less cost :)
Marco.
Might have grown out of America, late 70s early 80s saw the beginning of Dance music as it is now, originate about then, and if I recall right the early stirrings were from the States and then across to Uk and Europe.
Spectral Morn
05-01-2016, 13:21
Article about scratching, which did originate in America...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratching
kininigin
05-01-2016, 19:16
http://www.technics.com/global/introduction/hifi-direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1200gae/
New 50th anniversary SL1200! Might have to get one I think!
Techno Commander
05-01-2016, 20:07
It's rather interesting, isn't it, how this:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/907/HuocpU.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7HuocpUj)
...was regarded in its day as a high-end turntable (expensive, too), and only a few years later, when fitted with a cheap tonearm and pitch slider, it became (to some) nothing but an inferior 'DJ deck'. Shows you how folk are easily influenced by superfluous factors that, in reality, have no real bearing on the inherent quality of a turntable design.
Marco.
Like magazines trying to convince you that springy boxes and rubber bands were better. :)
Although I did have a liking for the highly engineered solutions from Mr Michell
The techie was also able to withstand use/abuse far above what would kill lesser offerings. Operating flawlessly for 10 hours a day 5 days a week, catching cigarette ash, spilt beer and being subjected to 125Hz rumble at 120 dB takes some doing. To do it year in year in, year out, with only an annual swap of cartridge and slip mat says a lot for its build quality.
Techno Commander
05-01-2016, 20:14
http://www.technics.com/global/introduction/hifi-direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1200gae/
New 50th anniversary SL1200! Might have to get one I think!
Ooh, thats enough to cause sleepless nights and unexpected seepage. :O
Mike_New
05-01-2016, 23:08
Having looked at the pics I think you will find that the bearing is not going to be anything special,
and does not appear to be very substantial, although the text does boast that the lateral bearing sleeve is a syntered oil one, which is an improvement, I wonder what the running fit is?!! Unfortunately I do not think that the bearing is going to be upgradeable
in the way that the current SLs are so you will be stuck with it!!
The Pancake motor uses two horizontal layers of magnets either side of the stator pulsed coils, this should equalise the axial forces exerted and greatly reduces the downward force on the support bearing.
With modern digital ICs and the low power required, I would guess that the whole control logic will be contained in just a handful of components.
The motor assembly has obviously been designed with 'economic' production in mind, and so probably will not permit of dis-assembly in the way that the SL1200 does. And so what you buy is what you get!!
The only areas where maybe an upgrade can be applied is the power supply and the platter, although they seem to have retained the same taper register which is strange.
Does anyone know what is the price of this new machine is going to be??
No pricing info yet, Mike.
kininigin
05-01-2016, 23:25
If i was to get one (depends on price!) i wouldn't want to modify it personally. For me it would be to own a lengendary TT,which is unique in the SL1200 series and think will be limited in number,although i could be wrong about that!
Some more details here:
Panasonic's reborn turntable celebrates the triumph of vinyl
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-01/05/panasonic-technics-sl-1200-turntable
Spectral Morn
06-01-2016, 00:22
I was excited re a reference standard deck, and the previous photos hinted at this, this is such a let down if this is the one and only product - cop out in my view.
allthingsanalogue
06-01-2016, 00:28
If i was to get one (depends on price!) i wouldn't want to modify it personally. For me it would be to own a lengendary TT,which is unique in the SL1200 series and think will be limited in number,although i could be wrong about that!
It would appear that the GA version is limited but then there will be a non limited version.
I wouldn't mind one especially for the 78rpm option!
PaulStewart
06-01-2016, 02:19
It's rather interesting, isn't it, how this:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/907/HuocpU.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7HuocpUj)
...was regarded in its day as a high-end turntable (expensive, too), and only a few years later, when fitted with a cheap tonearm and pitch slider, it became (to some) nothing but an inferior 'DJ deck'. Shows you how folk are easily influenced by superfluous factors that, in reality, have no real bearing on the inherent quality of a turntable design.
Marco.
Well I still have my SL 120 as my second deck and unless I see a good JVC QL 10 at a good price, I'll not part with it.
British high fidelity
06-01-2016, 06:46
Here are some close ups of the new deck she looks very nice indeed
http://gizmodo.com/the-technics-1200-turntable-is-back-1751157898
Mike_New
06-01-2016, 08:51
As far as I can determine the new SL is very much like my SL1200Mk6 the last of the genre (which I have fully upgraded) with a slightly modified tone arm assembly.
It uses the same double threaded VTA mechanism which is good feature.
The only major difference is the the new drive motor design.
Interesting sound bites from the Technics web site I didn't know about:
Technics Story
1970
At Technics, the development of a direct-drive turntable began when a customer wanted a turntable that could be used in a cold area where temperatures often dropped below freezing, unlike an ordinary turntable whose drive belt would harden and slip under low temperatures. While improving the belt material, Technics also embarked on the challenge of developing a new type of drive system in order to resolve these problems from the ground up. After overcoming many difficulties, Technics successfully developed a direct-drive system to rotate the turntable with a low-speed motor.
The SP-10 was the first to be equipped with a DD motor, and boasted unparalleled performance. Because of its high reliability, BBC and many other broadcasting stations around the world began using the SP-10. The SP-10 triggered Technics DD turntables’ worldwide popularity.
1979
The world-renowned SL-1200 Series maintained its original design for 35 years and enjoyed high popularity. Its turning point came when the SL1200 MK2 was introduced, because this model was developed with DJ use in mind.
Technics engineers went to the clubs where the first-generation SL-1200 units were used and listened to the requests of DJs, and then made bold modifications. Technics used a base structure featuring aluminium die cast and vibration-isolating heavy rubber to minimise the effect of vibrations caused by very loud sound as well as a slide-type continuous-pitch quartz-locked controller to maintain the operating feel of the first-generation SL-1200, and made improvements that would allow DJs to concentrate more on playing music. These efforts contributed greatly to the DJ culture. During 35 years after its introduction, some 3.5 million units of the SL-1200 Series were sold. There are still many avid fans of this historic product series.
Having looked at the pics I think you will find that the bearing is not going to be anything special,
and does not appear to be very substantial, although the text does boast that the lateral bearing sleeve is a syntered oil one, which is an improvement, I wonder what the running fit is?!! Unfortunately I do not think that the bearing is going to be upgradeable
in the way that the current SLs are so you will be stuck with it!!
The Pancake motor uses two horizontal layers of magnets either side of the stator pulsed coils, this should equalise the axial forces exerted and greatly reduces the downward force on the support bearing.
With modern digital ICs and the low power required, I would guess that the whole control logic will be contained in just a handful of components.
The motor assembly has obviously been designed with 'economic' production in mind, and so probably will not permit of dis-assembly in the way that the SL1200 does. And so what you buy is what you get!!
The only areas where maybe an upgrade can be applied is the power supply and the platter, although they seem to have retained the same taper register which is strange.
Does anyone know what is the price of this new machine is going to be??
Can't really tell much from this picture, but it looks like the motor assembly will come apart.
http://images.cdn.whathifi.com/sites/whathifi.com/files/styles/big-image/public/brands/news/CES2016/technics_sl1200g2.jpg?itok=A9UAk415
http://images.cdn.whathifi.com/sites/whathifi.com/files/styles/big-image/public/brands/news/CES2016/technics_sl1200g1.jpg?itok=aSRlo9gX
Techno Commander
07-01-2016, 16:53
SHqr7B4pZoM
Mike_New
07-01-2016, 22:00
So much for a credible demo just look at the warped record they are using!!! In fact it looks like the record is not properly seated onto the platter.
I wondered about that ...maybe they wanted to proove it can play warped ok, but it looks crap on the platter... Other than that, it is a pretty thing.
Mike_New
07-01-2016, 22:12
The platter looks identical to the old one, I wonder if it is?!
All they would need to do is to not fit the pulse generator and machine off the bottom of the taper boss.
Which would greatly reduce production costs as they would still have the special lathe jigs and set up for making them.
Has anyone looked at the platter in detail??
The platter looks identical to the old one, I wonder if it is?!
It has a copper top plate. Presumably bonded to the aluminium platter.
allthingsanalogue
07-01-2016, 23:34
Picture here, looks quite a bit different to me. Looks like brass?
I wonder if it rings when tapping it?
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/ibiza23/AOS/4E195A22-938E-4044-A3C6-D590EE549EDD_zpsgwws5lpn.png
walpurgis
07-01-2016, 23:39
Every solid rings. Even damping materials. It's just a question of degree. :)
allthingsanalogue
07-01-2016, 23:44
Every solid rings. Even damping materials. It's just a question of degree. :)
True, but the 1210 platter does ring more than most TT's I've played with! The LP12 platter rings on it's own but as soon as it's placed on the sub platter it doesn't ring at all, well not noticeable anyway.
I still reckon it looks fantastic, I hope the cheaper one looks the same, it will be a great addition for playing 45's and especially 78's!
Picture here, looks quite a bit different to me. Looks like brass?
Right you are sir.
From the press release :-
The turntable Platter has a three-layered construction consisting of a rigidly combined heavyweight brass and aluminum die cast platter, and deadening rubber covering its entire rear surface. This eliminates unnecessary resonance, achieving high rigidity and vibration damping. The smooth rotational stability and inertial mass even surpasses the Technics SP-10MK2, the direct-drive turntable standard used in the past by broadcast stations worldwide.
walpurgis
07-01-2016, 23:52
The LP12 platter rings on it's own but as soon as it's placed on the sub platter it doesn't ring at all.
Impossible. The platter and sub platter combined assembly will have several resonances which will no doubt be fed down into the suspended sub-chassis via the bearing, which will play it's own little resonance tunes, fed via the springs into the top plate and everything else to varying degrees regardless of any damping materials, which never absorb all energy. Sorry 'bout that. :D
allthingsanalogue
08-01-2016, 00:03
Impossible. The platter and sub platter combined assembly will have several resonances which will no doubt be fed down into the suspended sub-chassis via the bearing, which will play it's own little resonance tunes, fed via the springs into the top plate and everything else to varying degrees regardless of any damping materials, which never absorb all energy. Sorry 'bout that. :D
No need to be sorry, I don't own an LP12!
What I meant was that the outer platter on an LP12 rings when tapped quite noticeably but once you fit it on the sub platter the ringing of the two platters seem to cancel each other out to very good degree.
walpurgis
08-01-2016, 00:15
No need to be sorry, I don't own an LP12!
What I meant was that the outer platter on an LP12 rings when tapped quite noticeably but once you fit it on the sub platter the ringing of the two platters seem to cancel each other out to very good degree.
I know exactly what you mean. I was pulling your leg to an extent Andrew. :)
I've used the odd LP12 (not one of my favourite TTs) and owned many Thorens TTs, which also do the same.
The platter looks identical to the old one, I wonder if it is?!
All they would need to do is to not fit the pulse generator and machine off the bottom of the taper boss.
Which would greatly reduce production costs as they would still have the special lathe jigs and set up for making them.
Has anyone looked at the platter in detail??
The platter looks to be held in place with three screws.
http://djworx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/technics-sl-1200-gae-9.jpg
http://djworx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/technics-sl-1200-gae-7.jpg
Mike_New
09-01-2016, 01:46
Thank you Dave for the two images of the new platter.
It's just as I predicted earlier in this thread. The platter is essentially the same as the old one even the "TECHNICS" moulded name
on the rubber is the same. All they have done is to replace the center feature of the platter with a triangular shaped cast-in boss with three bolt holes.
This boss is not machined across the top to register precisely onto the bottom of the drive plate and brass taper , so presumedly the three bolts are intended to pull the platter down onto the taper via bolts from the top of the platter, counter sunk below the surface for obvious reasons.
My observations assume that the platter shown is a completed production model.
So essentially you have the same platter (bell shaped) and with rubber damping. I do not think that the bonded brass sheet on the top will do much for damping.
I wonder if the brass sheet is actually bonded, it looks like it might just be held on with four screws.
http://djworx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/technics-sl-1200-gae-5.jpg
Mike_New
09-01-2016, 06:36
Hi Dave,
The three counter sunk holes confirms what I speculated in my last post.
I think you are correct the four screws hold down the platter.
However surely it would be stupid to do this without some sort of backing material below it.
Bonding would surely be the better option but again would be more expensive to do.
If the plate is made from brass (much less costly than copper) then I would think that it would need to be anealed in some way
as brass has a propensity to ring.
Since the first pics were posted here I have had two private enquiries asking if I can produce my ETP Platter to fit.
The answer is yes. However my centre boss carrying the tapered hole would be round not triangular, otherwise everything else would be the same
including the label recess and threaded lifting holes.
If you look at the pictures closely you can see three machined areas on the boss that look to locate to three pads on the motor top plate, so to me it looks like the screws are intended to pull it onto the machined three point fixing.
Mike_New
09-01-2016, 22:55
I do not think that the areas are machined flat as the machined surfaces would have a distinctly different colour.
(much brighter than the dull metal straight from the Die).
And they would not need to be as they are only pulling the platter onto the taper.
However this has it's own possible problem in that if the bolts are tightened up to much then over time the platter will
jam itself onto the bearing.
Spectral Morn
09-01-2016, 23:50
Arm might be replaceable with something else as it looks similar to the old system, still I live in hope of a motor unit, plinth mountable.
allthingsanalogue
10-01-2016, 12:43
IMHO the people spending over £3.5k on this version will not modify it any way, probably end up a collectors item.
You certainly won't find the GAE version in any nightclubs!
if your spending £3500 on a tt and are looking to replace the arm and bearing then id say your buying the wrong tt :lol:
allthingsanalogue
10-01-2016, 14:33
if your spending £3500 on a tt and are looking to replace the arm and bearing then id say your buying the wrong tt :lol:
100% agree.
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