View Full Version : Stepped attenuators, passive preamps and TVCs
{Moved from another thread}
I'll bring the AVC, should make for an interesting comparison.
Nice one, dude. The Tizzy is nothing fancy, so I'm not expecting it to 'win' - but what it is, is *stupidly* good value, for the sonic performance on offer! :eek:
Ultimately, I'll likely end up with one of these:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/ggld6j.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/LEOLef.jpg
Not bad for around $600, especially considering the high quality of the stepped attenuators themselves. For me, it just smacks of 'rightness', so I'm willing to take a blind punt and import one from the States. Watch this space! :)
Marco.
The fully-balanced version would interest me if there was provision to switch between four inputs. Can you provide a link please Marco? Thanks.
Sure, Barry: http://www.goldpt.com/index.html
The quality of their steppers is superb! I think you can also build them as kits, which may appeal to you :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
29-08-2015, 13:09
Barry, the Slagle AVC's can be had in a balanced version, though of course you could just buy two pairs..
Significantly better to my ears than any other passive I've had in my system.
Ali Tait
29-08-2015, 13:10
Nice one, dude. The Tizzy is nothing fancy, so I'm not expecting it to 'win' - but what it is, is *stupidly* good value, for the sonic performance on offer! :eek:
Ultimately, I'll likely end up with one of these (the dual-mono stepped version):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/ggld6j.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/537/KiZp77.jpg
Not bad for around $600, especially considering the very high quality of the stepped attenuators themselves. For me, it just smacks of 'rightness', so I'm willing to take a blind punt and import one from the States, so watch this space! :)
Marco.
Yep, could say the same for these Slagle AVC's. Performance for the money is amazing.
Isn't a passive pre-amp just a switch in a box?
I could miss that step out completely and wire my source direct to my Proprius mono block amps, and adjust the volume there to suit.
Would that sound any better?
Ali Tait
29-08-2015, 14:01
Possibly. Worth a try.
Sure, Barry: http://www.goldpt.com/index.html
The quality of their steppers is superb! I think you can also build them as kits, which may appeal to you :)
Marco.
Cheers! :)
Truth be told, I am able to design them myself, but sourcing low noise resistors of sufficient resolution (E96) and of sufficient accuracy (tolerance) would be a bit
of a bind. Anyway, I like the look of the case, components and knobs even though I think I could improve on the wiring.
There you go then! I'll certainly be taking a punt on one in due course, as I think it'll be superb :)
Marco.
The Goldpoint looks great, but it's balanced, so twice as complex as Marco needs. Why they need to tie the rear to a circuit board surprises me though, as XLR sockets have nice large buckets to solder to... maybe it's for neatness. Looks like a metal case too...
I've got to like Perspex :eyebrows: and for less money as the Goldpoint, one can have a UK hand made four input (plus one direct) and three output passive with an expensive 'Hifi Collective' attenuator (not a ladder style but each step individually connected as all the best attenuators do). For a touch more dosh, one can have more inputs and twin attenuators instead of a stereo one, again, with very expensive resistor network attenuators as standard.
Sorry, I felt I should mention it!
The Black Adder
29-08-2015, 17:43
You can get unbalanced I think, Dave..
The Goldpoint looks great, but it's balanced, so twice as complex as Marco needs.
Did you miss the bit where it says you can have them configured the way you want? ;) Why on earth would I go for a balanced one in my system, daftee!
I've got to like Perspex :eyebrows: and for less money as the Goldpoint, one can have a UK hand made four input (plus one direct) and three output passive with an expensive 'Hifi Collective' attenuator (not a ladder style but each step individually connected as all the best attenuators do). For a touch more dosh, one can have more inputs and twin attenuators instead of a stereo one, again, with very expensive resistor network attenuators as standard.
Sorry, I felt I should mention it!
This deserves to be said, so listen up...
No matter how good I thought NVA equipment sounded, and I'm on record as praising plenty of it (the stuff I've heard - and I will continue to praise more of it, if I hear it and like it), I wouldn't put a penny in that man's pocket, for rather obvious reasons, not least of which is that I require to have a level of respect for the maker of any kit I use.
Plus, not that he would supply me anyway, so let's leave that one dead right there!!
Marco.
jandl100
29-08-2015, 18:32
You can get unbalanced I think, Dave..
I'm unbalanced already. :facepull:
:eyebrows:
Firebottle
29-08-2015, 19:41
You didn't seem that bad when we were over Jerry..............
....maybe a little 'off balance'.
Hope you're good, or at least careful :rolleyes:
I'm unbalanced already. :facepull:
:eyebrows:
Well, anyone with your taste in carpets could be said to be slightly 'cooky'! :D
Marco.
The Black Adder
29-08-2015, 20:19
I'm unbalanced already. :facepull:
:eyebrows:
LOL... we know, Jerry... we know... :D :lol:
jandl100
29-08-2015, 20:20
Well, anyone with your taste in carpets could be said to be slightly 'cooky'! :D
Marco.
Tsk - some people have no appreciation of the finer things in life. ;)
walpurgis
29-08-2015, 20:38
Nice one, dude. The Tizzy is nothing fancy, so I'm not expecting it to 'win' - but what it is, is *stupidly* good value, for the sonic performance on offer! :eek:
Ultimately, I'll likely end up with one of these (the dual-mono stepped version):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/ggld6j.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/537/KiZp77.jpg
Not bad for around $600, especially considering the high quality of the stepped attenuators themselves. For me, it just smacks of 'rightness', so I'm willing to take a blind punt and import one from the States, so watch this space! :)
Marco.
What about one of these Marco?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raphaelite-PRE-PM2-1-Pre-AMP-Audio-hifi-Passive-Magnetic-Preamplifier-brand-new-/261603818894?hash=item3ce8cd7d8e
Proper TVC pre-amp. Quality maker too.
Check out Raphaelite or Sinovt (same company) equipment.
Sorry Geoff. I'm not as 'Mr tactful' as you, but the whole point about getting a passive preamp (from any maker) in the first place is to get as far away from add-on bits as possible. transformers add their own stamp to the music, sometimes beautifully (my Micro Seiki CD player has transformer coupled outputs and this does help no end in this player), but even low level transformers limit bandwidth a bit and distort a little at their extremes...
I'm actually surprised at how an amp with a 1.3V input sensitivity can work so well with a passive pre, when really, it shouldn't...
walpurgis
29-08-2015, 21:06
Have you tried a TVC pre-amp Dave?
I like my one, and aint changing it. Might upgrade it one day but at moment, its a case if it aint broke dont touch it. Best passive Ive tried
I like my one, and aint changing it. Might upgrade it one day but at moment, its a case if it aint broke dont touch it. Best passive Ive tried
Which one is Grant? Sorry if you have already told us - a link would be useful. Thanks
Which one is Grant? Sorry if you have already told us - a link would be useful. Thanks
Promitheus TVC...mine is the one with dual vc's and 2 inputs.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/540/nzwgqi.jpg
Sorry Geoff. I'm not as 'Mr tactful' as you, but the whole point about getting a passive preamp (from any maker) in the first place is to get as far away from add-on bits as possible. transformers add their own stamp to the music, sometimes beautifully (my Micro Seiki CD player has transformer coupled outputs and this does help no end in this player), but even low level transformers limit bandwidth a bit and distort a little at their extremes...
That's certainly my experience of transformer-based passives, so not for me, although I would listen to the TVC Geoff has mentioned, if I had the opportunity to do so, and form my opinion accordingly thereafter.
I'm looking for as 'open a window' as possible and maximum transparency, from any passive I use, so that the only thing I'm 'hearing' (aside from the music) is whatever minuscule sonic signature is imposed by the stepped attenuators.
Fortunately, the Copper amp is very sensitive indeed (especially since having some feedback removed from its original design parameters), so I don't need a passive unit to do anything other than relay the signal from the source, as unsullied as possible. That's what I like: pure 'raw musical realism' :)
Btw, Dave, I disagree with your remarks about the Tisbury sounding 'unmusical' because of the stepped attenuators it uses, or some such. Trust me, in my system, it sounds nothing of the sort and exhibits precisely what you value about your NVA!
Marco.
walpurgis
29-08-2015, 21:41
100K Ohm output impedance?! No thank you.
Fairly sure that spec is wrong. It's for another item. You'll see they quote voltage and it's a passive device.
walpurgis
29-08-2015, 21:46
My TVC unit has a quoted 5.5k output impedance.
It looks great and sounds better than any stepped attenuator or pot type passive or active pre-amp I've used and that's a good few.
Btw, Dave, I disagree with your remarks about the Tisbury sounding 'unmusical' because of the stepped attenuators it uses, or some such. Trust me, in my system, it sounds nothing of the sort and exhibits precisely what you value about your NVA!
Marco.
I can't put it into words properly and 'unmusical,' if that's what I said, is far too harsh a term. It's just that, for me, the stock film pot (47k although I've happily used 10k ones), just seems to retain a touch *more* involvement. With the non NVA power amps I have, this is paramount as these have slightly less of this to start with.
I've seen imported Dale based individual L-pad type attenuators and may try one at some point, although in all honesty, I should wait and just get a *pukka* one and be done with it ;)
I can't put it into words properly and 'unmusical,' if that's what I said, is far too harsh a term. It's just that, for me, the stock film pot (47k although I've happily used 10k ones), just seems to retain a touch *more* involvement. With the non NVA power amps I have, this is paramount as these have slightly less of this to start with.
That's fine, as it's your valid experience.
Mine is that NO pot has ever sounded better than ANY quality stepped attenuator I've tried, regardless of the circuit it was used in, providing that the circuit was good in the first place. For me, that's all it is: quality stepped attenuators are simply more accurate (read as, act as less of a bottleneck), so just allow you to hear more of what the partnering circuit is doing. Pots, IME, seem to muddy the music, in comparison.
Therefore, if you don't like the sound of a quality stepper, blame the partnering circuit, not it.
I believe that if a stepped attenuator has been designed properly, then it is inherently more 'truthful' than any pot. YMMV. The improved 'involvement' you're hearing with the pot could simply be it acting as a 'sticking plaster', masking some 'nasties' in the circuit. I'm not saying that is definitely the case, but it often is.
Whenever I do the comparison on the same piece of equipment, with no other variables in the equation, pots always sound veiled and bloated (exhibiting a 'midrange bloom') in comparison - and I detest that. When I can hear that a particular component has a rather defined sonic signature, I will not use it.
It was a revelation, for example, when the Alps Blue pot on my Croft preamp was upgraded with a DACT stepper: it was as if before I had been listening with a pair of curtains draped over the speakers!! :eek:
Yup, MASSIVE, no-brainer all-round improvement :)
I've not heard the stock film pot on the Tisbury, so can't comment, but I'd be amazed if it proved to be the first pot that, to my ears, sounded better than a quality stepper - and for me there's nothing wrong whatsoever with the one used in the Tisbury: it sounds as 'musical' as the signal it is being fed with.
Marco.
anthonyTD
31-08-2015, 13:39
I have very good experience of these, and the guy who makes them is a bit of a perfectionist, which when you see, and hold one of his Attenuators in your hand, that becomes immediately apparent, how the heck he can make these for the price is beyond me!
He makes shunt, and series types, i have heard both, and prefer the series type in some of my equipment, but both are excelent.
The passive preamp quality is, for the money, way beyond what anyone could make in this country!
http://khozmo.com/index.html
They look beautiful and the complete passive preamp looks nice too. Get the bloody things over here and the price goes up sadly. Still, £300 to £400 inclusive isn't a bad price in anyone's book for something like this.
P.S. Knowing the construction inside should also give hugely positive vibes to those who own one.
I have very good experience of these, and the guy who makes them is a bit of a perfectionist, which when you see, and hold one of his Attenuators in your hand, that becomes immediately apparent, how the heck he can make these for the price is beyond me!
He makes shunt, and series types, i have heard both, and prefer the series type in some of my equipment, but both are excellent.
The passive preamp quality is, for the money, way beyond what anyone could make in this country!
http://khozmo.com/index.html
Now that's quality! :eek: Now all I want is those stepped attenuators with Vishay Z-films, fully balanced circuitry, provision to switch between four inputs and all housed in a quality metal case like the Goldpoint! :D
The Black Adder
31-08-2015, 16:18
I have very good experience of these, and the guy who makes them is a bit of a perfectionist, which when you see, and hold one of his Attenuators in your hand, that becomes immediately apparent, how the heck he can make these for the price is beyond me!
He makes shunt, and series types, i have heard both, and prefer the series type in some of my equipment, but both are excelent.
The passive preamp quality is, for the money, way beyond what anyone could make in this country!
http://khozmo.com/index.html
Yup, I've used both Shunt and Serial attenuators.
I've concluded tests with both Shunt and serial versions and the differences between them are slight. I prefer the serial now... :)
Great value, great sound... There is also a torque setting on them.
I have very good experience of these, and the guy who makes them is a bit of a perfectionist, which when you see, and hold one of his Attenuators in your hand, that becomes immediately apparent, how the heck he can make these for the price is beyond me!
He makes shunt, and series types, i have heard both, and prefer the series type in some of my equipment, but both are excelent.
The passive preamp quality is, for the money, way beyond what anyone could make in this country!
http://khozmo.com/index.html
Good shout, Anthony. I had (temporarily) forgotten about the Khozmos! They've been discussed here before. For me, those and the Goldpoint offerings are about the best you can get.
Awesome VFM :)
Marco.
They look beautiful and the complete passive preamp looks nice too. Get the bloody things over here and the price goes up sadly. Still, £300 to £400 inclusive isn't a bad price in anyone's book for something like this.
P.S. Knowing the construction inside should also give hugely positive vibes to those who own one.
Indeed, but of course the only reason we're mentioning them is to take sales away from NVA... :doh:
Tell your 'boss', btw, that I'm perfectly entitled to hold VALID views, based on my own personal experience, about SAs vs. pots, without them representing fact! I've never once said here that I was an expert on the subject, or that my views were indisputable, as he's nonsensically portrayed elsewhere, due to his usual ridiculous bias.
Marco.
Hm. Had the Tizzer in my system. Easily beaten by my Air Tight. It uses a potentiometer, costing many times that of the Tizzer unit in its entirety.
Technically, resistors can never be more accurate because they always have to meet a rating. Pots just have to meet a value within a range. As long as the wipers are in the same position for both channels the job is a good 'un.
My mileage varied:)
anthonyTD
31-08-2015, 17:25
And thats where the real issue is, a standard stereo pot can never have the acuracy of a Stepped attenuator over its entire movement, as its always compromised by the Accuracy of the Track!
.
Technically, resistors can never be more accurate because they always have to meet a rating. Pots just have to meet a value within a range.
As long as the wipers are in the same position for both channels the job is a good 'un.
My mileage varied:)
The Black Adder
31-08-2015, 17:27
I too fancy trying a Goldpoint..
Here is the unbalanced version with dual pots...
http://www.goldpt.com/sa4m_in_ang_04.jpg
Arkless Electronics
31-08-2015, 17:39
+1 for the Khozmo stuff. A friend has one and brought it round. Sounds great and as was said earlier great VFM.
I too fancy trying a Goldpoint..
Here is the unbalanced version with dual pots...
http://www.goldpt.com/sa4m_in_ang_04.jpg
Me likey... However, I wonder what the resistors at the back are for on the PCB - and indeed why there even is a PCB?
Where is that featured on the website - got a link? :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
31-08-2015, 19:07
Hi Marco.
Ere you go. http://www.goldpt.com/sa4.html
The SA4M is the baby.
I'd imagine that they are some kind of shunt resistors as seen on the Khozmo passive below, although they are a better choice (Z-Foils). I think the ones in the Goldpoint are Dale resistors.
On both Goldpoint and Khozmo, the board looks like it's basically for the tracks to the sockets as it doesn't look populated with anything.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f20/daiwok/hi%20fi%202/file_zpsc63d9805.jpg
Cheers, matey. That's great... Wonder if they'd do a series one, instead of shunt, to do away with the resistors (I presume)? I'd prefer the music signal to be as unmolested as possible! :)
One thing I like about the Goldpoint (and prefer over the Khozmo) is its dinky size. That's rather important for those of us short of rack space... ;)
Marco.
Hm. Had the Tizzer in my system. Easily beaten by my Air Tight. It uses a potentiometer, costing many times that of the Tizzer unit in its entirety.
Well, you've just said it yourself at the end! :eyebrows:
I never said that the Tizzie was a 'world beater'; simply amazing value for money, given the sonics on offer. I've heard far worse active preamps (valve and SS) costing thousands!!
Marco.
And thats where the real issue is, a standard stereo pot can never have the acuracy of a Stepped attenuator over its entire movement, as its always compromised by the Accuracy of the Track!
Indeed :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
31-08-2015, 19:29
Well, it doesn't say anything in the specs on the Goldpoint.
I prefer the Series Khozmo attenuator, it's just more natural and the clarity is more open.
I guess it's all down to the quality of the SMD resistors used. What I figured was that the shortest signal path is best hence SMD being my choice.
BTW, I used the Z-Foils in the shunt one I used.
The Black Adder
31-08-2015, 19:43
Just found this in regards to the Goldpoint:
"Note: R5 and R7 resistors are often the same values. This is NOT an error. As these are Series type stepped attenuators, the resistor values are added to each other in sequence. At position 7 we switch to a smaller 2dB step, whereas the step previous to it was a 3dB step. If you were to calculate the math, you would find that these are the correct resistor values.
The overall value or impedance of the stepped attenuator is shown at the top of each column, and the precise total value (all of the individual resistor values added together) is shown at the bottom of each column"
http://www.goldpt.com/r_series.html
Tell your 'boss', btw, that I'm perfectly entitled to hold VALID views, based on my own personal experience, about SAs vs. pots, without them representing fact! I've never once said here that I was an expert on the subject, or that my views were indisputable, as he's nonsensically portrayed elsewhere, due to his usual ridiculous bias.
Marco.
I'm self employed Marco..
It was a tongue-in-cheek remark Dave, but serious at the same time.
In any case, do you think I don't know that he spends his every waking hour (or so it seems) scrutinising everything I write? ;)
Anyway, let's leave it there now.
Marco.
Just found this in regards to the Goldpoint:
"Note: R5 and R7 resistors are often the same values. This is NOT an error. As these are Series type stepped attenuators, the resistor values are added to each other in sequence. At position 7 we switch to a smaller 2dB step, whereas the step previous to it was a 3dB step. If you were to calculate the math, you would find that these are the correct resistor values.
The overall value or impedance of the stepped attenuator is shown at the top of each column, and the precise total value (all of the individual resistor values added together) is shown at the bottom of each column"
http://www.goldpt.com/r_series.html
Cheers, Joe. Interesting.... What I'm wondering is why the Tisbury, or Khozmo (for example), don't have any resistors in-line (just a straight wire from input to output), yes the Goldpoint does? I just don't like the idea of resistors used in that way.
Marco.
The Black Adder
31-08-2015, 20:25
Ah... ok.
They must be pre-attenuation resistors then.
http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html
Makes sense if you have too much gain. I suppose the problem with direct linked passives is that if you have a system with high gain it will be bonkers at just a few clicks in.
Yup, but not mine. In my system, gain-wise, direct-linked is perfect. I wouldn't want a passive that reduces gain, but that rather simply sends the signal 'as is' to the power amp.
Therefore, the question is: would Goldpoint do a direct-linked version of the SA4-M? :hmm:
Marco.
The Black Adder
31-08-2015, 20:38
Don't see why not, they can be made to order. From what I can see it's just a link (in place of the resistors) on the board to make it direct.
Why not fire an email over...
Yeah, think I will :)
Marco.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think you may be just making up words with "direct link" and the rest. I suspect the difference you are seeing is between a "ladder", "series" and "shunt" attenuator. With a series the max output can be the same level as the input, but the signal can pass through 24 or so resistors depending on the number of steps, and one contact. With a Ladder attenuator, you need twice the switch contacts and the signal passes through two resistors and two contacts. With a shunt attenuator, you will always have the shunt resistor in series, and the max output will be less than the input, but you will only ever have two resistors and one contact in the signal path.
http://www.goldpt.com/attenuator_types.html
walpurgis
31-08-2015, 20:59
As this thread is about TVCs too. I thought I'd bung one in.
You are unlikely to find this doing a search from eBay UK.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171914162306?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It gives little info, but it's the dual mono version of the model I have in my collection. The sound quality of mine is notably better than any of the stepped attenuator or pot type passives I've come across.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think you may be just making up words with "direct link" and the rest. I suspect the difference you are seeing is between a "ladder", "series" and "shunt" attenuator. With a series the max output can be the same level as the input, but the signal can pass through 24 or so resistors depending on the number of steps, and one contact. With a Ladder attenuator, you need twice the switch contacts and the signal passes through two resistors and two contacts. With a shunt attenuator, you will always have the shunt resistor in series, and the max output will be less than the input, but you will only ever have two resistors and one contact in the signal path.
Hi Nick,
I'm afraid all this techy stuff goes over my head, so perhaps you could clarify:
Basically, I'd like to try a better quality passive than the Tisbury, as good as it is for the money, but nothing more than £500. Now, the Goldpoint seems to have resistors in the equation (fitted on that little PCB at the back of the unit, beside the outputs), whereas the Khozmo, for example (if you check the link posted earlier) doesn't.
The gain in my system, using the Tisbury (with the Copper amp) is almost spot on. The Tisbury doesn't have those resistors on a PCB, like the Goldpoint does, just simply stepped attenuators wired in line with the signal. Now, in my system with that set-up, I wouldn't want the gain reducing at all.
Therefore, what's the best passive preamp implementation to go for, in order to get the gain I need (minus any attenuation), together with the shortest and purest signal path? :)
Marco.
P.S I should say that I don't want transformers!
Also, what I'm trying to achieve is the 'loudness level', for want of a better description, of the Croft, but with the signal purity and sweetness of a passive.
For example, on any given recording, the Croft is louder than the Tisbury (as I suppose it would be, being an active design), so when I slot the Tissie in, I have to turn up the volume around two to three notches, using its stepped attenuator, in order to reach the same listening level with the same recording.
What I want is not to have to do that, and any passive I use to be as 'loud', in that respect, as the Croft. Essentially, so that the 'gain structure' between any passive I use and the Copper amp, is the same as when the Croft is being used.
Experience tells me that 'gain structure' is important, and too little (or not enough to be sonically optimal) can cause a soft, weedy-type sound, lacking in drive and authority. I hate that.
Marco.
With a passive all you are doing is attenuating the output of the source. So I don't see how having to turn the Tis bury up a couple of steps should affect sound quality. You are reducing attenuation, not increasing gain.
It doesn't really affect sound quality as such, Martin. It's just that I'd rather not have to do it.
I'd simply rather that the gain structure present between the Croft and Copper amp was the same when any passive I use was in the equation, so however that is best achieved, whilst preserving maximum signal integrity, is what I'm looking for.
I think it is possible you are hearing from the Tisbury what I heard which is a lack of impact - so you want to turn it up.
No, it's not that. I would be able to demonstrate it if you were here.
Marco.
Shit, I've just edited your post instead of quoting it and replying... Sorry - too much Drambuie, lol! :doh:
Best post it again.
Marco.
No doesn't matter the sense is still there.
I can always drop over and bring my NVA so you can see what I mean - yes it is possible I am wrong but only one way to find out. In my system it was a noticeable difference between the two. And it is not volume or gain related. It would at least give you an idea of what direction to go in terms of passive designs.
Sure, I've got no problem listening to anything. It's the only way you learn! :)
Marco.
Let me know when you are free and I'll come over.
The whole passive thing is fascinating I think. I mean why do you need that extra gain stage of an active pre amp when your DAC or phono stage is already putting out more than enough signal? Makes no sense to me. But hardly anyone uses them. Although I suppose there are some integrated amps that use a passive line stage, but don't make a big deal of it.
I think that impedance matching is a big part of it, together with the sensitivity of the partnering power amp, and indeed the speakers used.
I might be wrong, as I've never tried it, but if the impedance matching is sub-optimal and you've got an insensitive power amp and speakers, I can't see how a passive unit would work well.
Also, and again I'm only referring to my own experience so far, the best results I've had with passives is with a (very sensitive) valve amp. So far, whenever I've heard a passive unit with an SS amp, the sound has lacked 'life' and just sounded 'flat', in comparison. The Tisbury and Copper amp, for example, gel really well and exhibit none of that flat or 'lifeless' sound.
I dare say, however, that if the SS amp manufacturer in question optimised the design to be used with a passive unit in the first place, creating true synergy between the two, then I would most likely change my opinion.
Marco.
The Black Adder
01-09-2015, 06:05
I'm pretty sure that those resistors (of which we can see) fitted to both the Goldpoint and the Khozmo (see previous pics) are to attenuate the signal so you have more control over the volume range.
This makes sense as if it was just a pot linked directly to the sockets (in a lot of cases due to mismatch) it would be way too loud. But in your case, Marco you shouldn't need them fitted.
I may be wrong though.
Thanks, Nick btw... Good to hear from a master... ;) - In fact, Marco... just ask Nick.. lol
Indeed. I'm still waiting for him to reply to my earlier posts... ;)
I hear you about the resistors. However, I'm 99% sure there are none in the Tisbury, and it's just a stepped attenuator and selector switch wired directly (hard-wired) to the outputs - and it's not way too loud...
I'll need to open mine up and have a look! If so, that's what I want from the Goldpoint, but with the sonic advantages of their superior steppers, and dual mono controls. I'll also take a picture and post it, as Googling for internal pics of the Tisbury only brings up external images. I can't find any of its innards...
Marco.
I don't get what the big deal is with the resistors. In an active pre you are running the signal through a lot more components.
As for matching with the power amp I have used my passive with 6 different power amps with no issues at all. Which leads me to conclude that the issue I had with the Tisbury is down to the Tisbury.
Indeed. I'm still waiting for him to reply to my earlier posts...
Give me a chance :-).
If you want a stepped attenuator to do exactly the same as the pot did in your croft, then you need either a series or a ladder attenuator, ladder will be more expensive as it needs two switches per channel and twice as many resistors, but has less resistors in the signal path than a series. A typical shunt attenuator will have 6dB or so loss at full, and a varying input and output impedance, but is the purest in terms of resistors. At any position other than full any attenuator will have what is in effect the shunt resistor, so its not as if there is actually extra resistor in series. But I can't say from a distance how the gain would work out for you.
awkwardbydesign
01-09-2015, 07:27
I hear you about the resistors. However, I'm 99% sure there are none in the Tisbury, and it's just a stepped attenuator and selector switch wired directly (hard-wired) to the outputs - and it's not way too loud...
Marco.
?? Isn't a stepped attenuator made of resistors?
Lol - yes of course. I meant *other* than in the stepped attenuator itself :)
What I want is a passive unit with very accurate dual-mono stepped attenuators, but that doesn't reduce gain, which is what the Tisbury appears to be, only of course it has a stereo attenuator instead.
Marco.
Ali Tait
01-09-2015, 07:44
Well a shunt is out then, so that leaves either a series or ladder.
That's what I thought, Ali. Which in your experience sounds best, and also has the least 'stuff' in the signal path? :)
The Tissie is a series one, and that seems to hit the spot.
Marco.
Is the Goldpoint here a shunt one, then: http://www.goldpt.com/sa4.html
Marco.
Hi Nick,
Give me a chance :-).
If you want a stepped attenuator to do exactly the same as the pot did in your croft, then you need either a series or a ladder attenuator, ladder will be more expensive as it needs two switches per channel and twice as many resistors, but has less resistors in the signal path than a series. A typical shunt attenuator will have 6dB or so loss at full, and a varying input and output impedance, but is the purest in terms of resistors. At any position other than full any attenuator will have what is in effect the shunt resistor, so its not as if there is actually extra resistor in series. But I can't say from a distance how the gain would work out for you.
Lol - cheers :)
Looks like it's a series for me then. Which impedance value should I use? The one in the Tisbury is 10k, and that seems fine.
Marco.
The Black Adder
01-09-2015, 07:55
Is the Goldpoint here a shunt one, then: http://www.goldpt.com/sa4.html
Marco.
No I don't think so as they stopped production of Ladders and Shunts in 2003 as it says here: http://www.goldpt.com/attenuator_types.html
Ah, I see. So what are those resistors at the back doing then? If they're reducing gain, is that not a shunt? Excuse me, I'm only learning, but my understanding is that series and ladder steppers don't reduce gain.
Marco.
The Black Adder
01-09-2015, 08:06
Ah, I see. So what are those resistors at the back doing then? If they're reducing gain, is that not a shunt? Excuse me, I'm only learning, but my understanding is that series and ladder steppers don't reduce gain.
Marco.
They would be for attenuation.
See here: Rp1 & Rp2 being resistors: http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html
http://www.goldpt.com/pre_attn1.gif
This is what Tisbury say about their unit:
Our SMD stepped attenuators use a 'series' configuration, similar to the excellent DACT and Goldpoint attenuators. These have a track of resistors connected in series and the volume is varied by moving the output up and down the track. This mimics a standard potentiometer and is ideal for audio. They typically have long life, low operation noise, extremely high sound quality, and fairly consistent impedance throughout their range.
For me, that sounds like the right way to do it, especially as, sonically, I like the results. If the Goldpoint does the same thing, simply using higher-quality parts, then that's the way I will go! :)
Goldpoint here: http://www.goldpt.com/sa4.html
Marco.
They would be for attenuation.
See here: Rp1 & Rp2 being resistors: http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html
http://www.goldpt.com/pre_attn1.gif
Right, gotcha. Perhaps it's just a more elegant way of applying the attenuation?
Marco.
The Black Adder
01-09-2015, 08:18
Right, gotcha. Perhaps it's just a more elegant way of applying the attenuation?
Marco.
I suppose so, I did think that they would have given the option of using Charcroft Z-Foils though.
Can't comment on that, as I've not used them. I know you like them, though.
Do you think my assertion in post #76 is correct? Essentially, I'm looking for a higher-quality Tisbury, with dual-mono steppers. If that's essentially what the Goldpoint is, I'm in there :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
01-09-2015, 08:51
You will always have some form of resistance inline with any type of conventional attenuator!
Cheers, Joe. Interesting.... What I'm wondering is why the Tisbury, or Khozmo (for example), don't have any resistors in-line (just a straight wire from input to output), yes the Goldpoint does? I just don't like the idea of resistors used in that way.
Marco.
The Black Adder
01-09-2015, 08:54
Can't comment on that, as I've not used them. I know you like them, though.
Do you think my assertion in post #76 is correct? Essentially, I'm looking for a higher-quality Tisbury, with dual-mono steppers. If that's essentially what the Goldpoint is, I'm in there :)
Marco.
I would say so, yes. The Goldpoint attenuators are very well regarded so that's a 'green light' in regards to the SMD resistors they use.
With dual controls too, I think it will be excellent. :) I would go with the 47 step myself.
47 steps is that way I would go, as one of the other things I'd like to have is greater flexibility over volume adjustment :)
Anyway, I'm just waiting for someone 'technical' to confirm my above assertion, and if so, I think the jog's a good 'un!
Marco.
You will always have some form of resistance inline with any type of conventional attenuator!
Yup... See my post 76, mate. I'd like your opinion on it :)
Marco.
I suppose so, I did think that they would have given the option of using Charcroft Z-Foils though.
It looks like it would be very easy to replace the resistors at the back of the unit with Charcrofts if you wanted to. I also like to use Charcrofts at key points in the circuit.
tubehunter
01-09-2015, 09:44
I use and custom build these @ £80
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/dual%20stepped%20atenuator/41C60DDA-03D1-47E9-95EB-A03E83D42EF3_zpswnkdqieq.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/dual%20stepped%20atenuator/41C60DDA-03D1-47E9-95EB-A03E83D42EF3_zpswnkdqieq.jpg.html)
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/dual%20stepped%20atenuator/65596ED8-76E7-417F-96F6-9DA458E255AB_zpsvx7tiovt.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/dual%20stepped%20atenuator/65596ED8-76E7-417F-96F6-9DA458E255AB_zpsvx7tiovt.jpg.html)
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/dual%20stepped%20atenuator/5C4997B2-632A-46A9-AD49-6C1ADD319BED_zpswg2pt0yb.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/dual%20stepped%20atenuator/5C4997B2-632A-46A9-AD49-6C1ADD319BED_zpswg2pt0yb.jpg.html)
Nice, Dunc. Is that a shunt, ladder or series type? :)
Marco.
tubehunter
01-09-2015, 10:00
Shunt
My sources produce 2volts and my Quad 405s only require 0.5volts for full 100 watts output.
So I can easily throw away some volts.
Cool - is that the same as Ian's using? :)
Marco.
And thats where the real issue is, a standard stereo pot can never have the acuracy of a Stepped attenuator over its entire movement, as its always compromised by the Accuracy of the Track!
Both approaches are compromised. As long as you have around 2% channel matching between resistors and the two tracks on a pot I'd say it isn't really an issue.
I'm not keen on discrete volume settings personally (and I suspect when it really boils down to it most people aren't) but I'm not going to knock products like the Tizzer as it is fab value.
There is some very useful/interesting info here, on the following page, regarding the Goldpoint devices, and the subject of impedance (10k, 50k, etc): www.goldpt.com/info.html
This for example:
One common opinion states that with the higher value level controls, such as 50K and 100K, you can hear higher amounts of (desirable) high frequency harmonics, or even that "it sounds more open and airy". A similar opinion states that the lower values, such as 10K and 25K sound slightly "richer" or "more full bodied".
The actual truth may depend on the equipment being listened to and/or which set or ears is doing the listening. I have found that the stepped attenuator (volume control) value is usually not so critical - and that it does not make as much difference as some people claim - but that other aspects of the equipment or system can make bigger, more noticeable sonic differences.
There is a common misconception that higher value volume controls such as 50K or 100K will result in LOUDER sound compared to using 10K or 25K volume controls. This is not true. 10K controls usually yield exactly the same loudness as 100K units. (Technically, there are other reasons why different value controls are used in different places or applications.)
Vacuum tube equipment often uses 25K, 50K, or 100K level controls, due to the high input impedance of tubes. Solid-state gear usually has 10K, 25K, or 50K level controls.
You can begin to have "high frequency roll off" beginning to appear with volume control values above 100K. If you don't have an engineer handy, or just can't decide, 25K is a good choice for both vacuum tube and solid-state equipment, especially for passive level controls.
We use the 25K stepped attenuator value in our home audio (RCA connector) SA1, SA2, and SA4 passive preamps. Our balanced (XLR connector) SA1X and SA2X precision level controls use 10K stepped attenuators - as this level control value is common in the Pro Audio environment.
Actually, you can also use a stepped attenuator value which is HIGHER than the rated input impedance - this doesn't really hurt anything - they are essentially just voltage dividers! So don't worry about it if that's what you end up with. The sound quality will typically not be noticeably affected.
However, I liked this bit best, which is now made up my mind to order one:
Which Type of Goldpoint Stepped Attenuator Sounds Best?
All Goldpoint stepped attenuators improve sound quality and provide much better channel-to-channel signal level matching compared to potentiometers. You just cannot beat them. Highly recommended, our V24 stepped attenuators have low noise, precision resistors already installed. (0.5% tolerance, 25ppm, Thin Film, 0805 SMD type).
Our resistors are SO transparent sounding that we no longer hear any advantage to producing Ladder or Shunt type stepped attenuators. You can string dozens of them together and that will still sound like a single individual resistor!
Marketing spiel perhaps?
Maybe, but my gut feeling tells me that they're not lying, and I've always considered that the Goldpoint just 'felt right'. It's the same feeling I had when I bought my modded Techy blind, all those years ago, and my vintage SPU and DL-S1 cartridge, Tannoys etc, blind, in the same way - and look how well those turned out... Normally my instincts don't let me down, so fingers crossed! :)
Therefore, a single-ended 47-step (dual-mono) SA4m will be winging its way to Marco Towers soon. I just need to decide on the impedance value of the stepped attenuators. Based On Anthony's advice, I'm thinking 50 or 100k :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
01-09-2015, 11:24
It looks like a nicely built thing. And as I said earlier, there are lots of praise for the goldpoint attenuators, on a par and better than the DACT equivalent.
I looked in to them as well as DACT. But on price point the Khozmo was unbeatable.
Cool... glad you are going for one. :)
The Black Adder
01-09-2015, 11:27
Hi Duncan.
That looks really compact and neat... small too keeping those signal paths tiny. For £80 it's excellent... Ian is well happy with his.
It looks like a nicely built thing. And as I said earlier, there are lots of praise for the goldpoint attenuators, on a par and better than the DACT equivalent.
I looked in to them as well as DACT. But on price point the Khozmo was unbeatable.
I like the Khozmo a lot, but something is just pulling me towards the Goldpoint. The DACT in the Croft is superb, and was WAY BETTER than the shunted Glasshouse Takman stepper I had fitted to the Croft before it (much more detailed and transparent), so I have no intentions of going there again.
Cool... glad you are going for one. :)
Cheers, mate. Full report when it arrives!!
Marco.
anthonyTD
01-09-2015, 14:26
Hi Justin,
I take your point, and respect your opinion, but i think on this one, we'll have to agree to differ.:)
Both approaches are compromised. As long as you have around 2% channel matching between resistors and the two tracks on a pot I'd say it isn't really an issue.
I'm not keen on discrete volume settings personally (and I suspect when it really boils down to it most people aren't) but I'm not going to knock products like the Tizzer as it is fab value.
Another interesting bit on the Goldpoint website:
At Goldpoint we studied resistor sound qualities for two decades. In 2012 we decided that the Nickel Chromium type of metal film is WHY the brands that use it sound better. By far most other resistor brands use Ruthenium metal film to make thick film resistors - which just does not sound as good! The Nichrome resistors we now use (exclusively) have excellent, transparent sound, better even compared to the "exotic" Vishay Bulk Foil type, Caddock (non-inductive), or Tantalum resistors such as the Audio Note resistors, etc. Our conclusion: Use good quality Nickel-Chromium resistors where ever possible in audio circuits.
Like it... I admire their thinking 'outside of the box' and not automatically employing the obvious choices - always a good sign of design prowess, IME! :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
01-09-2015, 18:56
Interesting, :scratch:
This type of resistance material is usualy found in heating element wire etc, either way, they have obviously done their homework!
A...
Another interesting bit on the Goldpoint website:
Like it... I admire their thinking 'outside of the box' and not automatically employing the obvious choices - always a good sign, IME! :)
Marco.
Interesting, :scratch:
This type of resistance material is usualy found in heating element wire etc, either way, they have obviously done their homework!
A...
Yes - it is also used in microwave circuit terminations, and attenuators.
Interesting, :scratch:
This type of resistance material is usualy found in heating element wire etc, either way, they have obviously done their homework!
In what way, mate. What are you getting at exactly? :)
Marco.
A few notes on stepped attenuators:
Stepped attenuators offer distinct sonic advantages over common potentiometers. This is due to their use of discrete resistors and the purest method of signal attenuation: resistor voltage dividers.
Discrete resistors typically have better low noise characteristics than the carbon or cermet resistor elements used in potentiometers. The total measured resistance for each position of a stepped attenuator remains constant throughout years of use. This is because the wearing (rubbing) parts in stepped attenuators are low resistance switch contacts, not resistive elements with wipers sliding on them as in potentiometers. Potentiometers can add clicks, pops, and static sounds due to wear.
Stereo potentiometers used as volume controls often produce different volume levels for each channel, and the amount of mismatch can vary as the potentiometer is turned up or down. The channel-to-channel tracking specification for stereo potentiometers, even very expensive ones, is typically 5% to 20%. With stepped attenuators you can easily achieve stereo signal levels matched to within one percent (1%).
With stepped attenuators, the signal level has been pre-determined for each step, so front panel calibration markings can represent actual signal levels.
High-quality stepped attenuators: the choice of the discerning audio enthusiast... ;)
Marco.
A few notes on stepped attenuators:
Stepped attenuators: the choice of the discerning audio enthusiast... ;)
Marco.
Alternatively, the stepped attenuator contacts wear to the extent that they are noisy when switched, can cause huge channel imbalances as a result, have no R/C (massive bummer IMHO) and are costly to implement well. They also feel really nasty when turned in a lot of cases (not the Tizzer though).
I doubt the Alps RK50 meets the +/- 2% channel balance I was talking about earlier. In practice I notice no issues however. So it is good enough in use. That's also no R/C lest you strap it up to custom made gearing with an electric motor, which Air Tight did. Whilst I still own that unit I don't use it in my main system anymore.
The Goldpoint looks like a good option. Don't get me wrong I think stepped attenuators are good, just compromised in a different manner.
LDRs, TVCs... just different compromises again. Choose your poison.
Stepped attenuators are only likely to be noisy when switched if there is DC on the signal, and this in turn will be minimised if the switch is designed to 'make before break'.
I met one in a Kondo preamp that had failed on a low volume setting - you and to fiddle appreciably to get something approaching channel balance. Noisy when switching too.
Alps blue pots get really noisy when old. I've replaced a few myself. Hard to win with old gear sometimes with either type.
The Black Adder
02-09-2015, 07:33
Stepped attenuators are only likely to be noisy when switched if there is DC on the signal, and this in turn will be minimised if the switch is designed to 'make before break'.
Yep, some can click when turned but this is generally dirt on the wipers. A bit of contact cleaner can sort that out.
Alternatively, the stepped attenuator contacts wear to the extent that they are noisy when switched, can cause huge channel imbalances as a result, have no R/C (massive bummer IMHO) and are costly to implement well. They also feel really nasty when turned in a lot of cases (not the Tizzer though).
Everything in audio is a compromise of sorts. That is indisputable.
However, like I've said before, Justin, the above has never happened with any stepped attenuator I've used regularly (over a course of years), so the concept is alien to me. Also, the DACT in the Croft feels as silky in use as any components on a Swiss watch! :)
Anthony has been fitting them for years to his Soulmate preamps, which have been sold all over the world. As far as I'm aware, none of his customers have ever complained about faulty volume controls.
Anyway, we'll see how the Goldpoint steppers fare in that respect. I'd don't foresee any issues, however, as they're highly regarded. Besides, use what you want. If you prefer pots, mate, then carry on :cool:
Marco,
Marco - I have gone active valve pre after using the Air Tight for years.
Interestingly that uses an Alps Blue. As did my Beard amp - and I had to replace the lot (3 of them). Even the EAR868PL I had had an Alps Blue in (cheapskate at the price of the preamp TBH I was amazed when I saw it in there).
The AN M8 preamp I used recently had really clunky stepped pots - one per channel. That seemed a very transparent preamp, which surprised me as generally a lot of AN components do sound coloured to me, albeit nice with it a lot of the time.
Your probably talking 10+ years before any issues might arise with either type. I couldn't switch clean an Alps pot but some discrete designs may well accommodate it.
I don't think an Alps Blue by itself is up to much as a passive. But shove a load of circuitry in after it and the nature of the beast changes. The EAR sounded quite different to the Cayin I use now. Up against the Cayin the Air Tight loses. Which is why I don't use it anymore (it is in my 2nd system), after years of thinking a passive is the way to go. IMHO it just sounds better.
I'm not trying to sway you, just saying what I have found with my system. As you say, if you prefer a discrete only passive, go for it and enjoy!:)
Trawl around the web and people claim one sounds better than the other and vice versa. Tis all subjective/system dependent etc.
Yeah, mate, absolutely. The key word for me is: context.
Nothing in audio is ever universally 'the best'. It depends on how it's implemented, and even more importantly, the user's idea of 'good', based on his or her established benchmarks in that respect - or even simply his or her own personal tastes!
For example, since you mention it, I've heard Alps Blues sound either shit (dull and shut in), as it was on my Croft to start with, to superb (very musical, detailed and communicative), as it is on a mate's Cary valve preamp, so there is no 'one size fits all', with any product or component.
For me, however, based on my ears and experience to date, I can usually hear what pots do that I don't like, compared with the best stepped attenuators. Not that they are 'perfect' either, but for me, they are usually more accurate, and as such, act as less of a bottleneck for the music signal, which is all I want an attenuation device to do.
YMMV, as they say, and it obviously does, but I can only tell it as I've heard it, so far! :)
Marco.
P.S The Tube Distinctions Soulmate preamps have been produced now for over 10 years, and to my knowledge, the DACT steppers fitted have performed flawlessly. Anthony can of course correct me on that if necessary.
Oh, and like you, I'm not a big fan of most AN kit. The only thing I rate highly is their cartridges! A lot of their 'high-end' stuff, IMO, is grossly overpriced for the performance on offer.
The Black Adder
02-09-2015, 11:20
Interesting, Justin.
I've used a S&B in my system before now. It was mega transparent. The only thing is that it lost it's weight in the bass slightly and it didn't have enough steps for my listening... it was bloody excellent though. :) It wasn't worse or better than the Croft, just a different flavour.
anthonyTD
02-09-2015, 15:23
As Marco has stated, the DACT Attenuators have proven to be very reliable in the equipment i have fitted them in, which includes Valve and solid state, like any attenuator, what they dont like is DC, even small amounts can [like oridinary track pots] cause them to become noisy between steps, however' this can usualy be cleared by cleaning them with a suitable switch cleaner like Servisol, or equivilent, but if the Attenuator has sustained high ish amounts of DC [many milliamps] over long time periods, then the small contact areas can become very slightly pitted, which is exactly what happens in conventional carbon pots over time, and can then become problematic, long term.
A...
Yeah, mate, absolutely. The key word for me is: context.
Nothing in audio is ever universally 'the best'. It depends on how it's implemented, and even more importantly, the user's idea of 'good', based on his or her established benchmarks in that respect, or even simply his or her own personal tastes!
For example, since you mention it, I've heard Alps Blues sound either shit (dull and shut in), as it was on my Croft to start with, to superb (very musical, detailed and communicative), as it is on a mate's Cary valve preamp, so there is no 'one size fits all', with any product or component.
For me, however, based on my ears and experience to date, I can usually hear what pots do that I don't like, compared with the best stepped attenuators. Not that they are 'perfect' either, but for me, they are usually more accurate, and as such, act as less of a bottleneck for the music signal, which is all I want an attenuation device to do.
YMMV, as they say, and it obviously does, but I can only tell it as I've heard it, so far! :)
Marco.
P.S The Tube Distinctions Soulmate preamps have been produced now for over 10 years, and to my knowledge, the DACT steppers fitted have performed flawlessly. Anthony can of course correct me on that if necessary.
Oh, and like you, I'm not a big fan of most AN kit. The only thing I rate highly is their cartridges! A lot of their 'high-end' stuff, IMO, is grossly overpriced for the performance on offer.
Dauntless
02-09-2015, 22:48
{Moved from another thread}
Nice one, dude. The Tizzy is nothing fancy, so I'm not expecting it to 'win' - but what it is, is *stupidly* good value, for the sonic performance on offer! :eek:
Ultimately, I'll likely end up with one of these:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/ggld6j.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/LEOLef.jpg
Not bad for around $600, especially considering the high quality of the stepped attenuators themselves. For me, it just smacks of 'rightness', so I'm willing to take a blind punt and import one from the States. Watch this space! :)
Marco.
Yes, I have the Goldpoint, the SA2XM. Mines the balanced version. It's well made and sounds good with the right power amp. At the moment I am using active valve pres in an single ended set up with my Class D 470c amp which because of low sensitivity needs an active pre.
Hi Michael,
That's good to know, and also confirms the fact that you need a sensitive power amp to use in conjunction with any passive attenuation device.
How long did yours take to arrive from the States, and did you incur any customs charges?
Marco.
BTH K10A
03-09-2015, 04:22
Quality vintage British engineering always prevails
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/T2eC16RyUE9s6NFIBtBRDrHRTVJg60_57_zpshb4wqjoe.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/T2eC16RyUE9s6NFIBtBRDrHRTVJg60_57_zpshb4wqjoe.jpg. html)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/KGrHqZlYFDeNgD0BRDrHhnIiw60_57_zpsrqn8nqzm.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/KGrHqZlYFDeNgD0BRDrHhnIiw60_57_zpsrqn8nqzm.jpg.htm l)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/KGrHqZk4FDCPiWvlBRDrHb5WBw60_57_zpsrnkp8mvr.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/KGrHqZk4FDCPiWvlBRDrHb5WBw60_57_zpsrnkp8mvr.jpg.ht ml)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/KGrHqVpUFD2bWq93UBRDrHn4ubQ60_57_zpsxxdqsl0v.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/KGrHqVpUFD2bWq93UBRDrHn4ubQ60_57_zpsxxdqsl0v.jpg.h tml)
The Black Adder
03-09-2015, 04:55
oooh, they look nice, Clark... Could they be Penny & Giles per chance at a guess? - Would love to try those babies.
Superb, Andy! Sadly, they don't make 'em like that anymore....
Marco.
How long did yours take to arrive from the States, and did you incur any customs charges?
Marco.
You will have to pay VAT at 20% plus the import duty plus the broker's fee. Not really any way around that as the value is over £30
Quality vintage British engineering always prevails
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/T2eC16RyUE9s6NFIBtBRDrHRTVJg60_57_zpshb4wqjoe.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/T2eC16RyUE9s6NFIBtBRDrHRTVJg60_57_zpshb4wqjoe.jpg. html)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/KGrHqZlYFDeNgD0BRDrHhnIiw60_57_zpsrqn8nqzm.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/KGrHqZlYFDeNgD0BRDrHhnIiw60_57_zpsrqn8nqzm.jpg.htm l)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/KGrHqZk4FDCPiWvlBRDrHb5WBw60_57_zpsrnkp8mvr.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/KGrHqZk4FDCPiWvlBRDrHb5WBw60_57_zpsrnkp8mvr.jpg.ht ml)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/KGrHqVpUFD2bWq93UBRDrHn4ubQ60_57_zpsxxdqsl0v.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/KGrHqVpUFD2bWq93UBRDrHn4ubQ60_57_zpsxxdqsl0v.jpg.h tml)
What are they and who made them?
The Black Adder
03-09-2015, 08:41
I'm waiting for Clark to get back too :), unless they are unknown. Penny & Giles made pots like that once, that would be my guess.
What are they and who made them?
Looks like tinned tomatoes to me, made by 'Nostia'.
The Black Adder
03-09-2015, 08:45
Looks like tinned tomatoes to me, made by 'Nostia'.
Dem tomatoes sound great in my system! :)
I'm waiting for Clark to get back too :), unless they are unknown. Penny & Giles made pots like that once, that would be my guess.
You could be right. I'm wondering if they are 600 Ohm constant impedance types, as would have been used by the (then) GPO. or the BBC.
Penny & Giles pots are used in my Mark Levinson preamps and they are superb: silky smooth action; excellent tracking and noise free.
Top quality those things...I like a nice tomato
anthonyTD
03-09-2015, 09:42
Fantastic Quality them Clark,
They certainly dont make things like that anymore, well, not on the scale they used to anyway, i have lots of high quality items that are similarly made,ie; wirewound pots, knife switches, relays etc, etc, from the same kind of era and purpose, sadly, i will probably never find a use for them, but i cant bear to scrap them...
Quality vintage British engineering always prevails
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/T2eC16RyUE9s6NFIBtBRDrHRTVJg60_57_zpshb4wqjoe.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/T2eC16RyUE9s6NFIBtBRDrHRTVJg60_57_zpshb4wqjoe.jpg. html)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/KGrHqZlYFDeNgD0BRDrHhnIiw60_57_zpsrqn8nqzm.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/KGrHqZlYFDeNgD0BRDrHhnIiw60_57_zpsrqn8nqzm.jpg.htm l)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/KGrHqZk4FDCPiWvlBRDrHb5WBw60_57_zpsrnkp8mvr.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/KGrHqZk4FDCPiWvlBRDrHb5WBw60_57_zpsrnkp8mvr.jpg.ht ml)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/KGrHqVpUFD2bWq93UBRDrHn4ubQ60_57_zpsxxdqsl0v.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/KGrHqVpUFD2bWq93UBRDrHn4ubQ60_57_zpsxxdqsl0v.jpg.h tml)
It uses a 32-way double pole make-before-break switch, which makes me wonder if it is a multiple T-section stepped attenuator. These have the advantage of no loss in the zero attenuation position.
Whatever it is, it's a superb piece of engineering the quality of which is not often seen these days. Suspect it was 'Made in Britian' (the 'Jones' plug suggests such), possibly by Advance, who like a lot of British component manufacturers are no longer in business, or have be absorbed into larger conglomerates. Penny & Giles are still in business and continue to make superb precision potentiometers.
Agree with you Anthony about being reluctant to throw away such examples of fine (if vintage) electronic components. I feel the same about Ernest Turner meters and Parmiko, Gardners or Partridge transformers. However it must be remembered that not all British made components were good: Hunt's capacitors weren't, nor were Pye TCC mica capacitors.
anthonyTD
03-09-2015, 10:40
Hi Barry,
Yes, i have quite a stock of similar, that came from Hawker Siddeley many years ago, unbelievable quality.
And as you say, not everything british made was worth hanging onto, i can think of two words that sum that up perfectly, British Leyland!
As you say, Hunts Capacitors, another perfect example, were Dire, and i have changed many, in all sorts of equipment, over the years.
Agree with you Anthony about being reluctant to throw away such examples of fine (if vintage) electronic components. I feel the same about Ernest Turner meters and Parmiko, Gardners or Partridge transformers. However it must be remembered that not all British made components were good: Hunt's capacitors weren't, nor were Pye TCC mica capacitors.
Hi Anthony,
Would you able to show us some photos and possibly shed some light if they are constant impedance stepped multiple T-section attenuators?
I have seen similar precision devices for sale on eBay, but their impedance was too low (200 Ohm) to be of interest to me.
The Black Adder
03-09-2015, 10:51
Shame they can't be used for Audio, Anthony.
Firebottle
03-09-2015, 10:56
That's where you'd be wrong Jo. Put a suitable buffer either side (input/output) and they'd be superb.
:)
The Black Adder
03-09-2015, 11:01
That's where you'd be wrong Jo. Put a suitable buffer either side (input/output) and they'd be superb.
:)
Now that would be excellent... :) I'd love something like that in my system, I love the real industrial kit. :)
Clark's units look like they are from a power station control board or something.
I've just been reminded, that Jones's plug looks like the SME plug on my 3009...lol
That's where you'd be wrong Jo. Put a suitable buffer either side (input/output) and they'd be superb.
:)
Yes, but that goes aginst the rational of using stepped attenuators - one of simplicity.
Now that would be excellent... :) I'd love something like that in my system, I love the real industrial kit. :)
Clark's units look like they are from a power station control board or something.
I've just been reminded, that Jones's plug looks like the SME plug on my 3009...lol
The 4-way connector used on SME 3000 series arms is a Belling & Lee 'Unitor' type. Belling & Lee are another example of a British connector manufacturer who have disappeared (along with Plessey and also McMurdo).
The Black Adder
03-09-2015, 11:06
Yes, but that goes aginst the rational of using stepped attenuators - one of simplicity.
Nooo.... Spoilsport.. ;) :D
The best volume control I have used to date is the one on my Krell KRC-3. It has over 300 "steps" selected electronically from a resistor network. It really shows up channel and tonal imbalance of traditional pots across the volume range, and allows an extremely precise volume control that has zero impact on the sound character. This is especially evident at very low volume where I find traditional pots perform badly. The inputs are also controlled by relays, making traditional switch contacts and wipers a non-issue.
anthonyTD
03-09-2015, 12:25
Relay contacts can suffer from the same issues as switch and wiper contacts, although i appreciate that most high quality ones are sealed.:)
The inputs are also controlled by relays, making traditional switch contacts and wipers a non-issue.
Relay contacts can suffer from the same issues as switch and wiper contacts, although I appreciate that most high quality ones are sealed.:)
Agreed, and contact 'bounce' can be a problem with some relays: I spent a couple of summers working at Pye TMC, setting up Carpenter relays for use by the Post Office. Some of the things we had to check were contact resistance, switching speed and contact bounce. Important aspects when used in telephone exchanges, but maybe not so important for audio use.
Dauntless
03-09-2015, 12:45
Hi Michael,
That's good to know, and also confirms the fact that you need a sensitive power amp to use in conjunction with any passive attenuation device.
How long did yours take to arrive from the States, and did you incur any customs charges?
Marco.
Sorry Marco, Have been busy fence building, away from computer. He's very quick, built mine the day he received the order and it arrived in about 5 days. Taxes followed!
Any of you guys have any experience building a passive stepped attenuator for a 5.1 HT system?
I once saw a link to a nice one but cannot find it anymore. It was housed in a very nice plastic chassis and using Kimber cable.
Any of you seen this? Or a variation of it?
Thanks.
Moyses
OK, after some digging I have found the missing link: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/kimber-dact-volume-control-2-2003.html.
BTH K10A
03-09-2015, 18:57
I'm waiting for Clark to get back too :), unless they are unknown. Penny & Giles made pots like that once, that would be my guess.
They are ex BBC Painton constant impedance attenuators.
I have in the past used these Daven 600/600 ohm constant impedance attenuators in a balanced configuration directly between my EMT 930 and Telefunken V69 amps in a minimalist setup
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1625_zpsa94w3vvn.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1625_zpsa94w3vvn.jpg.html)
anthonyTD
03-09-2015, 19:20
Hi Barry,
When i said i have quite a stock of similar quality, i meant other types of items of similar quality, not switch Attenuators!
Sorry for the confusion.:)
Hi Anthony,
Would you able to show us some photos and possibly shed some light if they are constant impedance stepped multiple T-section attenuators?
I have seen similar precision devices for sale on eBay, but their impedance was too low (200 Ohm) to be of interest to me.
They are ex BBC Painton constant impedance attenuators.
I have in the past used these Daven 600/600 ohm constant impedance attenuators in a balanced configuration directly between my EMT 930 and Telefunken V69 amps in a minimalist setup
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_1625_zpsa94w3vvn.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/IMG_1625_zpsa94w3vvn.jpg.html)
Painton were part of the Plessey group. Having seen the style of the knobs I was going to suggest they might have been made for the BBC.
Nice one Andy. :)
awkwardbydesign
03-09-2015, 21:16
Agreed, and contact 'bounce' can be a problem with some relays: I spent a couple of summers working at Pye TMC, setting up Carpenter relays for use by the Post Office. Some of the things we had to check were contact resistance, switching speed and contact bounce. Important aspects when used in telephone exchanges, but maybe not so important for audio use.
Wot u need is mercury wetted relays. Like what I have in my active crossover. Just can't use it upside down!
Wot u need is mercury wetted relays. Like what I have in my active crossover. Just can't use it upside down!
Mercury-wetted relays have one advantage, that of virtually instantaneous contact closure (~ a few picoseconds), as the mercury globules on each contact coalesce. However in a practical circuit the current rise-time will be limited by the inductance of the contacts and wiring, and due to mechanical imperfections will be increased to a few milliseconds; not that this really matters in use.
The coalescing of the mercury causes another effect: the contact resistance is not stable immediately after contact and can drift for several seconds after closure. That might be quite noticable in a stepped audio attenuator.
awkwardbydesign
04-09-2015, 08:43
Mercury-wetted relays have one advantage, that of virtually instantaneous contact closure (~ a few picoseconds), as the mercury globules on each contact coalesce. However in a practical circuit the current rise-time will be limited by the inductance of the contacts and wiring, and due to mechanical imperfections will be increased to a few milliseconds; not that this really matters in use.
The coalescing of the mercury causes another effect: the contact resistance is not stable immediately after contact and can drift for several seconds after closure. That might be quite noticable in a stepped audio attenuator.
Ah, I didn't know that. But on the outputs of the crossover that won't be a problem, I just wanted the most stable long term.
I have lots of high quality items that are similarly made,ie; wirewound pots, knife switches, relays etc, etc, from the same kind of era and purpose, sadly, i will probably never find a use for them, but i cant bear to scrap them...
Easy! Follow the lead of the Japanese, and develop them into limited-edition, artisan-crafted, 'NOS specials', and charge 'collector' prices. In the absence of any famous Welsh buddhists or wines, you should name them after mythical Celtic heroes (the more unpronouncable, the better). Market them through a high-end Japanese boutique (because they'd be illegal in the EU), and put some moody pictures of yourself on the website, together with some quotes from Marco, lauding you as the new underground Guru (TdP may be a Barron, but this guy is the new King ... Nelson Pass is now passe). Oh, and give up on the copper chassis nonsense .. gold is the way forward.
There you go ... :D: :rofl:
And don't forget to make the text on the website really hard to read. Tiny font in grey on black, no paragraphing, a smattering of Japlish.
walpurgis
05-09-2015, 08:50
Oh .japlish..I like it
It's like Chinglish, but the other way up.
anthonyTD
05-09-2015, 09:08
:eek: I'm taking it all onboard :lol:
A...
:eek: I'm taking it all onboard :lol:
A...
The clincher will be to befriend Roy Gregory and get him to refer to you in reverential tones as 'Anthony-San' in the pages of HiFi+. He will say of your amps, priced at around £50,000 each to keep the tyre-kickers away, 'these are something of a bargain'.
priced at around £50,000 each to keep the tyre-kickers away, .
Yes the really important thing is to charge a ridiculously high price. Otherwise you won't sell any!
Yes the really important thing is to charge a ridiculously high price. Otherwise you won't sell any!
The 'limited edition' thing is also vital. You could stick a couple of noughts on the end of the price by making 'bespoke' items, with the buyer's name engraved on the front. OK, it'd kill the re-sale price, but that's not your problem.
anthonyTD
05-09-2015, 12:31
Right, i'm on the case! :eyebrows:
The 'limited edition' thing is also vital. You could stick a couple of noughts on the end of the price by making 'bespoke' items, with the buyer's name engraved on the front.
You could put: 'Designed by a daftee, for daftees'.
Marco.
You could put: 'Designed by a daftee, for daftees'.
Marco.
I think that might be slightly limiting the target audience. I was envisaging something more like a tasteful brass plate on the front, with the buyer's name engraved in fancy writing, possibly with the number of amp in the production run; 3/25 or some such. All these ideas are of course given away free, gratis and for nothing, out of the goodness of my heart.
Yes, that's just the kind of selfless chap you are :)
Ok, how about something that fundamentally sums up the intended target audience: 'Designed by a daftee, for daftees with more money than sense'.
I feel that kind of nails it.
Marco.
Right, i'm on the case! :eyebrows:
Yes the case is very important - it should be milled aluminium or titanium, copper screws, lots of 24 karat gold plate, slap that on wherever you can. Big knobs, the bigger the better, some meters (not level meters, far too useful) showing dc offset or slew rate or something equally pointless. If it doesn't weight at least 30 kilos add some lead inside the case to make it up to that.
Sounds like a plan. Should it employ the use of fuses, or is that way too '1970s'?
Marco.
Ah, it doesn't really matter what is inside. Just buy an early 'Eighties Jap amp* off of eBay for thirty quid and put the internals in the blingy case. The punters listen with their eyes, their wallets and their memories of the glowing reviews.
* this will also mean that it will measure well if some upstart of a reviewer has the temerity to get his oscilloscope out.
Yes indeed, and besides, DC protection circuitry is so passé.
Marco.
Does my cynicism look big in this?
I'll pack it in now or Alan Sircom will be back to give me another bollocking ;)
anthonyTD
05-09-2015, 14:03
Your Bad, Bad people! :D
A.
And insist that the amplifier can only be used with your own special cables: a unique alloy of aluminium, gold, silver, copper and lead, drawn out by the makers of the iron used in Koetsu cartridges and in the direction of the local lay-lines, conforming to the geometry of Rutherford leads, encapsulated in an organic polymer with the longest name possible, and terminated in the most non-descript of plugs that have been blessed by the Dali Lama. Suggest you charge at least £5,000 a metre to retain creditability.
Alan Sugar makes just that stuff;)
anthonyTD
05-09-2015, 16:17
Damn, he beat me to it! :doh:
Alan Sugar makes just that stuff;)
Damn, he beat me to it! :doh:
But his are not marked with little arrows, whereas yours would be, using ink with compatable dielectric properties to that of the sheathing.
Anyway, yours would be assembled under the light of a full moon for optimal performance, by artisans who have undergone ritual purification for the task.
Anyway, yours would be assembled under the light of a full moon for optimal performance, by artisans who have undergone ritual purification for the task.
You mean they would've drank his bath water? :D
[with 'bits' in]
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
05-09-2015, 18:20
Yes the case is very important - it should be milled aluminium or titanium, copper screws, lots of 24 karat gold plate, slap that on wherever you can. Big knobs, the bigger the better, some meters (not level meters, far too useful) showing dc offset or slew rate or something equally pointless. If it doesn't weight at least 30 kilos add some lead inside the case to make it up to that.
Like this? Actually, that's a bit chavvy.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/Jungson%20JA88D%2009/20141027_173344_zpsadkwdomo.jpg
anthonyTD
05-09-2015, 18:42
Back on track then! :D
But his are not marked with little arrows, whereas yours would be, using ink with compatable dielectric properties to that of the sheathing.
Anyway, yours would be assembled under the light of a full moon for optimal performance, by artisans who have undergone ritual purification for the task.
anthonyTD
05-09-2015, 19:30
What the Heck is that Richard ?
Like this? Actually, that's a bit chavvy.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/Jungson%20JA88D%2009/20141027_173344_zpsadkwdomo.jpg
Ali Tait
05-09-2015, 21:58
A Jungson I think.
awkwardbydesign
06-09-2015, 10:00
What the Heck is that Richard ?
Boat anchor. :D
Jungson JA88-D(09)SE http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JungSon.htm I've separated the pre and power sections and run it as a power amp. And I'm not allowed to have the meters lit up. :( It gets external fan cooling in my rack. It has an MM and MC phono stage, so it's great as a back up. But at 30Kg it stays where it is.
You did ask. :lol:
anthonyTD
07-09-2015, 08:20
:)
Boat anchor. :D
Jungson JA88-D(09)SE http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JungSon.htm I've separated the pre and power sections and run it as a power amp. And I'm not allowed to have the meters lit up. :( It gets external fan cooling in my rack. It has an MM and MC phono stage, so it's great as a back up. But at 30Kg it stays where it is.
You did ask. :lol:
sq225917
07-09-2015, 18:47
Marco I used the 25k Goldpoint 24step in my previous pre. I tried the dact, ladder types, various pots, Alps, Noble, TKD, Ko-on and the Khozmo with Dales. The Goldpoint was the best to my ears.
I'll be fitting a couple of mono ones to my phonostage ad yhe cart loading devices.
Nice one, Simon. That's encouraging! :)
Marco.
Lee Henley
07-09-2015, 20:51
Earlier on in the year I did a bit of testing with my new power amps looking for a new pre, the following pics gives an idea as to what was tested on the day, all the guys in the room all agreed that the Lightspeed LDR won the day and was the one I ended up with and it cost less than £300 with the Teradak power supply
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/20A1BCFD-ACF4-4F8D-971D-249E0F4401B3_zpskeuxniwc.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/20A1BCFD-ACF4-4F8D-971D-249E0F4401B3_zpskeuxniwc.jpg.html)
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/D3E79A92-7168-4324-B4D7-4E98D303FB32_zps35l26akj.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/D3E79A92-7168-4324-B4D7-4E98D303FB32_zps35l26akj.jpg.html)
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/4C8F8788-F01F-4DD4-A24B-999E92E692E9_zpsy9czurtv.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/4C8F8788-F01F-4DD4-A24B-999E92E692E9_zpsy9czurtv.jpg.html)
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/FE2C02E4-DE57-4D9D-8273-FBDA1CB39F4C_zpszl7nyy4x.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/FE2C02E4-DE57-4D9D-8273-FBDA1CB39F4C_zpszl7nyy4x.jpg.html)
I still may look at a tube pre amp and did like what Alan's fire bottle Kin did in my system when I've had it round on demo but I keep going back to the passive LDR, I've also tried a very expensive Art Audio pre think it was around £6k and still proffered the LDR, the guys at Audio Note are going to bring up an M5 for me to have a listen to, see how things transpire
Here's a picture of the one I ended up with, the power supply is behind the pre and is a worthy upgrade
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/DB8D3C10-A1B5-48E2-8524-EA8E5C5FEE1E_zps0wvu2als.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/DB8D3C10-A1B5-48E2-8524-EA8E5C5FEE1E_zps0wvu2als.jpg.html)
Hi Lee,
How did the little Tisbury fare? :)
Marco.
Lee Henley
07-09-2015, 21:00
Hi Lee,
How did the little Tisbury fare? :)
Marco.
It did ok mate, but the LDR was in another league, seriously mate it was, on the day we were all expecting the Music First to win hands down and I was all prepared to buy one if it did the trick after hearing so much about them, but the LDR just sounded awesome and considering the price of the MF at £6k the LDR was a no brainer, if you get the chance to try a LDR pre amp then jump at it
For some reason I still haven't done an LDR... what's wrong with me? Gotta get a grip.
It did ok mate, but the LDR was in another league, seriously mate it was, on the day we were all expecting the Music First to win hands down and I was all prepared to buy one if it did the trick after hearing so much about them, but the LDR just sounded awesome and considering the price of the MF at £6k the LDR was a no brainer, if you get the chance to try a LDR pre amp then jump at it
Noted, Lee, and most interesting :cool:
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
07-09-2015, 21:54
I don't know how it stacks up against other LDR pres, but the Stereo Coffee LDR is probably the cheapest way to try one. I have a 4 input version running off a 1.2Ah battery, and it sounds pretty good to me. I am in the process of re-casing it to fit in a remote control board, cos I'm getting lazy!
Firebottle
08-09-2015, 07:28
Just come across this TVC from The Bespoke Audio Company.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YWjf9pOBlf0/VP5Ctml0QeI/AAAAAAAA2N4/wjNeR7JoA4o/s1600/the_bespoke_audio_company_preamplifier_review_mate j_isak_mono_and_stereo_06_1.jpg
Now this is what I call high end :eek: Not heard one and never likely to but would be good to get some feedback from an AoS member ;)
manufacturers web site: http://www.thebespokeaudiocompany.com/#003
The price is a bit steep at £9K but it does have remote :eyebrows:
:)
Light Dependant Resistor
08-09-2015, 09:43
Just come across this TVC from The Bespoke Audio Company.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YWjf9pOBlf0/VP5Ctml0QeI/AAAAAAAA2N4/wjNeR7JoA4o/s1600/the_bespoke_audio_company_preamplifier_review_mate j_isak_mono_and_stereo_06_1.jpg
Now this is what I call high end :eek: Not heard one and never likely to but would be good to get some feedback from an AoS member ;)
manufacturers web site: http://www.thebespokeaudiocompany.com/#003
The price is a bit steep at £9K but it does have remote :eyebrows:
:)
You can fly me there to personally advise and build you an LDR that is likely to be much better
with the 8945 pounds you will save, or simply just save 8939 Pounds and have me post it
to you.
Cheers / Chris
anthonyTD
08-09-2015, 09:54
:)
You can fly me there to personally advise and build you an LDR that is likely to be much better
with the 8945 pounds you will save, or simply just save 8939 Pounds and have me post it
to you.
Cheers / Chris
Before my tvc landed on my lap unexpectedly i was about to get an ldr. Had it selected and in the basket lol. Would still like to hear one though.
walpurgis
08-09-2015, 10:11
Before my tvc landed on my lap unexpectedly i was about to get an ldr. Had it selected and in the basket lol. Would still like to hear one though.
Did we hear back from Martin about his LDR pre-amp from a couple of years ago?
mine still works and I'm loving it. Haven't died of Cadmium poisoning either :lol:
mine still works and I'm loving it. Haven't died of Cadmium poisoning either :lol:
Cadmium poisoning eh? Must get some as xmas gifts;)
Did we hear back from Martin about his LDR pre-amp from a couple of years ago?
I have it all boxed and working but it has way too little attenuation. I can't get the knob off zero (story of my life) without it blasting the place out. Not tried it with all of my power amps yet, though. Other system issues have been a distraction recently. It is in the 'to do' pile at the moment.
I have it all boxed and working but it has way too little attenuation. I can't get the knob off zero (story of my life) without it blasting the place out. Not tried it with all of my power amps yet, though. Other system issues have been a distraction recently. It is in the 'to do' pile at the moment.
If yours is an early Stereo Coffee LDR, then it sounds like you have the wrong type of pot. I changed mine from a linear to a log pot, and it made all the world of difference. I'm sure it was discussed on this forum quite a few months back. Chris can certainly advise.
Was thinking that too... My recent playing with pi's has shown the difference is marked
walpurgis
08-09-2015, 12:04
I'm very tempted to get an LDR pre kit to try. I don't mind a bit of experimentation.
It'll have to go some to come anywhere hear the ability of the TVC though. Which has easily beaten every other passive and active unit I've used.
It was an early one, but IIRC I was sent an upgrade which was incorporated into the finished product. No idea what that related to. Jason (Figlet) built it for me so only he would know the details. I'm intending to try it with my Firebottle Dulci SECA valve amp but not got around to it yet.
realysm42
08-09-2015, 12:28
Earlier on in the year I did a bit of testing with my new power amps looking for a new pre, the following pics gives an idea as to what was tested on the day, all the guys in the room all agreed that the Lightspeed LDR won the day and was the one I ended up with and it cost less than £300 with the Teradak power supply
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/20A1BCFD-ACF4-4F8D-971D-249E0F4401B3_zpskeuxniwc.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/20A1BCFD-ACF4-4F8D-971D-249E0F4401B3_zpskeuxniwc.jpg.html)
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/D3E79A92-7168-4324-B4D7-4E98D303FB32_zps35l26akj.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/D3E79A92-7168-4324-B4D7-4E98D303FB32_zps35l26akj.jpg.html)
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/4C8F8788-F01F-4DD4-A24B-999E92E692E9_zpsy9czurtv.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/4C8F8788-F01F-4DD4-A24B-999E92E692E9_zpsy9czurtv.jpg.html)
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/FE2C02E4-DE57-4D9D-8273-FBDA1CB39F4C_zpszl7nyy4x.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/FE2C02E4-DE57-4D9D-8273-FBDA1CB39F4C_zpszl7nyy4x.jpg.html)
I still may look at a tube pre amp and did like what Alan's fire bottle Kin did in my system when I've had it round on demo but I keep going back to the passive LDR, I've also tried a very expensive Art Audio pre think it was around £6k and still proffered the LDR, the guys at Audio Note are going to bring up an M5 for me to have a listen to, see how things transpire
Here's a picture of the one I ended up with, the power supply is behind the pre and is a worthy upgrade
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/DB8D3C10-A1B5-48E2-8524-EA8E5C5FEE1E_zps0wvu2als.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/DB8D3C10-A1B5-48E2-8524-EA8E5C5FEE1E_zps0wvu2als.jpg.html)
Hi Lee, were the MFAs better than the LDR (and just a lot more expensive) or was the LDR superior, regardless of the cost?
If you read it again Martin you'll notice that the whole group preferred the LDR to all of the preamps pictured, so the MFAs, the Tisbury, Absolutor pre & Audio Note pre - price wasn't mentioned.
anthonyTD
08-09-2015, 14:21
Geoff,
You really need to try one, i had a TVC which i built using first generation Transformers, and i have built a few LDR pre's, i know which i prefer! ;)
I'm very tempted to get an LDR pre kit to try. I don't mind a bit of experimentation.
It'll have to go some to come anywhere hear the ability of the TVC though. Which has easily beaten every other passive and active unit I've used.
awkwardbydesign
08-09-2015, 14:39
If yours is an early Stereo Coffee LDR, then it sounds like you have the wrong type of pot. I changed mine from a linear to a log pot, and it made all the world of difference. I'm sure it was discussed on this forum quite a few months back. Chris can certainly advise.
That may have been me. I tried law faking resistors but that sucked the life out of it! Strange. A 250k log pot did the job, but now I'm rebuilding it with a remote control board, and the highest value motorised pots seem to be 100K. We'll see. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400526702205?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Oh, and different control boards really affect the sound too, not quite sure how that works. :scratch:
Just come across this TVC from The Bespoke Audio Company.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YWjf9pOBlf0/VP5Ctml0QeI/AAAAAAAA2N4/wjNeR7JoA4o/s1600/the_bespoke_audio_company_preamplifier_review_mate j_isak_mono_and_stereo_06_1.jpg
Now this is what I call high end :eek: Not heard one and never likely to but would be good to get some feedback from an AoS member ;)
manufacturers web site: http://www.thebespokeaudiocompany.com/#003
The price is a bit steep at £9K but it does have remote :eyebrows:
:)
Apparently it's built by a couple who used to work for Music First which is why it looks so much like one inside. Frankly, the whole product is aimed primarily at people who want to choose wood inlays and style of engraving - its not even wired with silver which is a bit much for 9K!
awkwardbydesign
08-09-2015, 16:05
Apparently it's built by a couple who used to work for Music First which is why it looks so much like one inside. Frankly, the whole product is aimed primarily at people who want to choose wood inlays and style of engraving - its not even wired with silver which is a bit much for 9K!
And their stitching's a bit uneven!
I don't doubt that transformers can work very well in certain applications, but I dislike the concept, as notionally, it's inelegant and goes against my audio principles of 'K.I.S.S'. If you don't require the use of traffos, for impedance matching purposes, then for me, that's got to be a benefit.
Therefore, all I want to see inside a passive attenuator device, is a nice pair of top-notch (dual-mono) stepped attenuators, hard-wired, point-to-point to the outputs, with the least sonically intrusive cable and RCA sockets known to man. The less 'stuff' that the signal has to negotiate, for me, the better! :)
In that respect, I'm very much looking forward to hearing the Goldpoint, which will be winging its way very soon to Marco Towers - as indeed will an LDR, courtesy of Chris! :cool:
Marco.
Lee Henley
08-09-2015, 16:21
Hi Lee, were the MFAs better than the LDR (and just a lot more expensive) or was the LDR superior, regardless of the cost?
Hi, the LDR sounded better than the MFA in my system
walpurgis
08-09-2015, 17:16
I don't doubt that transformers can work very well in certain applications, but I dislike the concept,
Marco.
That was my view too Marco. The thought of loads of wire windings in the way of my precious little source signals. However, reading a few user opinions and some reviews persuaded me to try one (a TVC). The results blew me away quite honestly.
If an LDR device can improve on that, then I'll be trying one.
Light Dependant Resistor
08-09-2015, 21:46
If yours is an early Stereo Coffee LDR, then it sounds like you have the wrong type of pot. I changed mine from a linear to a log pot, and it made all the world of difference. I'm sure it was discussed on this forum quite a few months back. Chris can certainly advise.
The pot was changed to a 500k audio taper, which gives a nice volume range. I will send you one Martin and update your control board too.
Cheers / Chris
That was my view too Marco. The thought of loads of wire windings in the way of my precious little source signals. However, reading a few user opinions and some reviews persuaded me to try one (a TVC). The results blew me away quite honestly.
If an LDR device can improve on that, then I'll be trying one.
+1.
I like very much what my tvc does, but one day hope to try a ldr to see if it is of benefit; hey you have to have an open mind.
Ali Tait
09-09-2015, 07:23
I don't doubt that transformers can work very well in certain applications, but I dislike the concept, as notionally, it's inelegant and goes against my audio principles of 'K.I.S.S'. If you don't require the use of traffos, for impedance matching purposes, then for me, that's got to be a benefit.
Therefore, all I want to see inside a passive attenuator device, is a nice pair of top-notch (dual-mono) stepped attenuators, hard-wired, point-to-point to the outputs, with the least sonically intrusive cable and RCA sockets known to man. The less 'stuff' that the signal has to negotiate, for me, the better! :)
In that respect, I'm very much looking forward to hearing the Goldpoint, which will be winging its way very soon to Marco Towers - as indeed will an LDR, courtesy of Chris! :cool:
Marco.
Weeelll, a resistor is going to affect the signal as much as a length of wire will I reckon. An AVC would seem to be a good way of doing this - no secondary remember.
http://www.intactaudio.com/atten_FAQ.html
Yes, Intact have a great reputation ... as does the little Townshend autoformer, which gets superb reviews / user feedback ... must give one a go sometime ...
Ali Tait
09-09-2015, 08:21
Well worth it for the low cost Peter. This one has seen off a Nelson Pass designed pre in my system.
Weeelll, a resistor is going to affect the signal as much as a length of wire will I reckon.
Lol... Possibly, but I have my doubts. My suspicion is that, sonically, the difference produced will be akin to when comparing SUTs with head amps, so yes, choose your favourite poison! :)
Don't get me wrong though, I hold no fixed opinions on the matter, as I'm way too early into developing my experiences in this area. Come the next NEBO, if one of the resident TVCs blows away my Goldpoint, as it were, I think you know what my next course of action would be.... ;)
More seriously, more than ever, the results these types of devices produce will be extremely system dependent, as their behaviour is very much governed by what they're connected to.
Perhaps I might also bring my Copper amp to NEBO, as long as someone gives me a hand lugging it up the stairs! That way, I can properly demonstrate the 'amplification solution' I use, in terms of a passive device being in the equation.
Marco.
Ali Tait
09-09-2015, 09:54
Yep true, though a good thing with the Slagle trannies is that the laminations can be restacked to alter the inductance, which should allow it to be used effectively in a wider variety of systems than a TVC.
Aye, bring the amp, be good to hear it.
Okies, but much will depend on what Macca wants to bring of his, in terms of available space. I like the idea of the flexibility you're talking about, with the Slagles.
However, as you know with these things, one can 'chew the fat' until the cows come home [nice mixed set of metaphors, there], in terms of debating the efficacy of technical specifications, but the proof of the pudding, as it were, with hi-fi, is always in the listening! :)
Marco.
realysm42
09-09-2015, 10:10
+1.
I like very much what my tvc does, but one day hope to try a ldr to see if it is of benefit; hey you have to have an open mind.
Same here, tvc dropped the noise right out of my signal.
Sovereign
09-09-2015, 11:01
You can fly me there to personally advise and build you an LDR that is likely to be much better
with the 8945 pounds you will save, or simply just save 8939 Pounds and have me post it
to you.
Cheers / Chris
Bloody good advice there Chris
Ali Tait
09-09-2015, 11:39
Okies, but much will depend on what Macca wants to bring of his, in terms of available space. I like the idea of the flexibility you're talking about, with the Slagles.
However, as you know with these things, one can 'chew the fat' until the cows come home [nice mixed set of metaphors, there], in terms of debating the efficacy of technical specifications, but the proof of the pudding, as it were, with hi-fi, is always in the listening! :)
Marco.
Yes indeed, be an interesting comparison.
Apparently it's built by a couple who used to work for Music First which is why it looks so much like one inside. Frankly, the whole product is aimed primarily at people who want to choose wood inlays and style of engraving - its not even wired with silver which is a bit much for 9K!
Next month's Stereophile magazine carries a review of the Bespoke Audio TVC ; they have this odd idea that you should use equipment, listen to it, before passing judgement. Let's hope that sort of thing doesn't catch-on.
And tell me, why are you so confident that this device would sound superior with silver wire? How can you know that?
£9k, however you cut it though, is IMO, a lunatic price to pay for a passive preamp, which by its very nature, is largely full of 'fresh air'!
How much of that price is born from its sonic prowess, and how much is simply 'high-end badge pretentiousness', I wonder? ;)
Marco.
Actually, on normal costings, this device is arguable underpriced. I suspect the Stereophile review will explain why that is so. Gaining experience before judging things is quite a good habit. For instance, spending thousands of pounds on improving a record deck that costs a few hundred quid, retail, might seem incautious. You'd have to hear the deck before you could offer a worthwhile judgement on whether the money was well-spent.
Imagine if people on forums only offered opinions based on actual experience of the goods, what a revolution that would be. Don't hold your breath.....
Actually, on "normal costings"....
Whose "normal costings" are those then, yours or mine, or someone's with more money than sense? :eyebrows:
I'm sorry, but you'll never convince me, despite how wonderful it might sound, that £9k for a passive preamp is anything other than absurd. I'll love to put the $650 Goldpoint up against it, mentioned earlier on this thread, and see what would happen. Perhaps I'll should take one into a Music First dealer, and do the comparison? Is your friend one?
Gaining experience before judging things is quite a good habit.
I agree, but like I said, I don't care how 'wonderful' it sounds, so that's my conclusive prejudgement. In my opinion, £9k for a passive preamp, which by the very nature of the design, is largely full of fresh air, is madness. I hope they sell plenty, though. I'm sure there'll be a few well-heeled audiophiles out there daft enough to pay it.
For instance, spending thousands of pounds on improving a record deck that costs a few hundred quid, retail, might seem incautious.
Perhaps. However, if that's a barbed attack on my modified Technics T/T, then you're as guilty of not offering an opinion based on actual experience, as those you're attacking, as you've never heard one. Furthermore, I've put my money where my mouth is and assembled something special and rather unique, rather than just emptying my wallet at the mercy of a dealer.
Now, are you finally willing to accept my offer of coming down and letting you listen to the Technics, and comparing it with your SME, so you're in a position to comment afterwards with some authority, or are you happy to remain in ignorance, whilst simultaneously feeling qualified to critique its 'worth', from a position of zero experience? ;)
Marco.
sq225917
09-09-2015, 17:39
Mark was taking the piss that anyone would have the neck to charge 9k for a couple of copper transformers, I agree. Your not buying sonuc prowess your buying a cheaper po re in a more expensive case. Let's noit foirbget SAnd B used to sell the transformers for circa £250 each not so many moons ago. So 9k for a pair and box is laughable.
The thing is, people's ideas of 'reasonably priced' and 'taking the piss' vary widely. Some people would regard anything north of £1,000 for a component to be ridiculously expensive; others would set the bar higher, till you get to Roy Gregory who would probably regard a £20,000 pre-amp as 'something of a bargain' if it was made by some revered Japanese geezer.
None of this has anything to do with the cost of materials/labour, and everything to do with 'what the market will bear'. Above a certain price point, sticking a few zeros on the price will probably increase rather than decrease the number of sales.
Perhaps. However, if that's a barbed attack on my modified Technics T/T, then you're as guilty of not offering an opinion based on actual experience, as those you're attacking, as you've never heard one. Furthermore, I've put my money where my mouth is and assembled something special and rather unique, rather than just emptying my wallet at the mercy of a dealer.
.
I think Peter was making a fairly valid point in that you don't really know if it is a waste of money until you hear it for yourself. And that this applies to modded Techys as well as passive pre-amps.
Yes I know, but the point is I'm not saying that it's a waste of money; merely that my opinion is it's vastly overpriced, regardless of how it sounds, based on the fact I'd never pay that much for a pot and a couple of transformers in a box.
Listening to one is not going to change that view.
Marco.
Mark was taking the piss that anyone would have the neck to charge 9k for a couple of copper transformers, I agree. Your not buying sonuc prowess your buying a cheaper po re in a more expensive case. Let's noit foirbget SAnd B used to sell the transformers for circa £250 each not so many moons ago. So 9k for a pair and box is laughable.
Precisely! Although fix those bloody typos... ;)
Marco.
None of this has anything to do with the cost of materials/labour, and everything to do with 'what the market will bear'. Above a certain price point, sticking a few zeros on the price will probably increase rather than decrease the number of sales.
Sadly you're right, the way high-end audio works, and the mentality of the majority of those who inhabit it :rolleyes:
The mantra of AoS, which is fundamental to our ethos, is to achieve maximum 'SPPV' from your system-building. Products, such as the MF passive preamp in question, are far removed from that ethos, and for me, go against what hi-fi equipment should be delivering to genuine and discerning enthusiasts, not simply those with the luxury of building systems with their wallets.
Marco.
Well, we could go round and round in circles. But let me give an example from the world of watch making. I have a nice old Seiko, quartz, which keeps great time, is reliable, looks nice and cost about£100. I know people who wear mechanical watches that cost many thousands. They are not as accurate, being mechanical, and they probably aren't as robust either.
Now, you could play the same game as with high-end audio. The watches are crazily over-priced, don't perform any better etc etc etc. Therefore the people who buy them are ignorant or rich and foolish.
But maybe they are no such thing. Maybe they like the idea of something rare, beautifully made and a pleasure to handle. Maybe they happily accept that in utilitarian ways, they are 'daft'...but think there are other values in life. They see these watches as an expression of rare craftsmanship, mechanical skill and deep down, build quality. Are these people stupid dupes? Or just people with another set of values?
Back to the Bespoke Audio TVC; to my eyes, it is the best built bit of kit I have ever come across in audio...and I've owned stuff by boutique companies such as Air Tight, Shindo, Audio Research and so on. I believe the forthcoming review may make a similar point...
Doesn't mean anyone has to want one, doesn't mean it's 'good value'....but neither does it mean it is a cynical or overpriced bit of kit.
I shouldn't have to say this, but I will, I have no financial interest in this or any other bit of hi fi. I speak as I find, and on the basis of actual experience of the goods. And I don't know any dealers who sell this product in the UK. Anything else you want me to declare?
People are entitled to their opinion
Anything else you want me to declare?
Yes, Peter, doesn't your mate (with a hi-fi shop) sell Music First, along with SME? ;)
Oh, and could you do me the honour please of acknowledging my offer of giving you a listen to my turntable, so that you you know what you're talking about when you refer to it, rather than rather rudely ignoring me. That would be nice :)
I do agree with the sentiments you've expressed in your last post, and good luck to anyone who wants to spend £9k on the MF. Trust me, I have rather expensive hobbies myself outside of audio, but when it comes to hi-fi equipment I'm afraid that I'm a big believer in that the bulk of what you're paying for should lie in what is 'underneath the hood'!
'Audiophile jewellery' has never been my thing. Hi-fi equipment, for me, is simply a tool for reproducing music, which is where my main passion lies. I don't 'do' audio ornaments.
Marco.
Whose "normal costings" are those then, yours or mine, or someone's with more money than sense? :eyebrows:
I'm sorry, but you'll never convince me, despite me how wonderful it might sound, that £9k for a passive preamp is anything other than absurd. I'll love to put the $650 Goldpoint up against it, mentioned earlier on this thread, and see what would happen. Perhaps I'll should take one into a Music First dealer, and do the comparison? Is your friend one?
Marco.
Can I just point out for the record, that the preamp you are talking about is not a Music First Audio Product AFAIK unless JB has gone into competition with himself, and the transformer cases certainly dont look like the ones that S&B use as I know exactly what they look like.
For £9,000 I would want the lacing to be neater and more even than that. Would make no difference to the sound, but 'standards are standards'.
At Marconi there were three standards of cable lacing. The highest standard was where all of the wires ran parallel and didn't cross over one another until they were broken out. Also the pitch of the lacing would be even throughout the wiring loom.
Regards
Barry (who wears a £4,500 wristwatch)
I think most of us obtain some pleasure from owning and using something that has been very well designed and engineered, from a car to a watch to a piece of hi-fi equipment. I don't like the idea of hi-fi equipment as 'male jewellery, though. Form should follow function. Extraneous bling and exclusivity don't do it for me. It's getting too far away from what the hobby is really all about. But if that is someone's bag then I don't have an issue with it, it does no harm.
awkwardbydesign
09-09-2015, 18:57
Same here, tvc dropped the noise right out of my signal.
I found it ideal for low level listening for that reason. But I have had to re-use it while modifying my LDR, and it doesn't seem to have the same dynamics, although it's hard to be certain as the rest of the system has changed so much. I guess I will be able to tell better when the LDR returns.
Can I just point out for the record, that the preamp you are talking about is not a Music First Audio Product AFAIK unless JB has gone into competition with himself, and the transformer cases certainly dont look like the ones that S&B use as I know exactly what they look like.
Fair enough, Nick. I couldn't argue otherwise. Whatever it is though, IMO, it's still vastly overpriced! :)
Marco.
I think most of us obtain some pleasure from owning and using something that has been very well designed and engineered, from a car to a watch to a piece of hi-fi equipment. I don't like the idea of hi-fi equipment as 'male jewellery, though. Form should follow function. Extraneous bling and exclusivity don't do it for me. It's getting too far away from what the hobby is really all about. But if that is someone's bag then I don't have an issue with it, it does no harm.
Ive lots of old US pocketwatches, some s old as 1880's; so when Geoff was a boy ;) I love the craftsmanship and the fact that after all these years they still work. Some folk spend a lot on the very top models, but not me; I cant afford it, even if I wanted to, but understand if someone wants such super expensive gear; its not my bag tbh but it does look overpriced to me. Mind you, I say that about a loaf of bread these days:)
I think most of us obtain some pleasure from owning and using something that has been very well designed and engineered, from a car to a watch to a piece of hi-fi equipment.
Absolutely - you know I love cars. However, do you think I own my Mercedes (especially the type of model it is) simply because it 'looks nice' or is well built? I think the term: 'what's under the hood matters' is rather apt there! ;)
Besides, what Del and I spend on fine wine and gourmet foods in a year would probably feed most people's hi-fi habits for a considerable time!
I don't like the idea of hi-fi equipment as 'male jewellery, though. Form should follow function. Extraneous bling and exclusivity don't do it for me. It's getting too far away from what the hobby is really all about.
Precisely; that's it in a nutshell - and whilst we don't condemn it, we certainly don't support that 'jewellery' approach to audio, on AoS. The interesting thing would be to find out the value of the music collections belonging to the majority of folk in the market for said passive preamp. One wonders if that would amount to £9k? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco, I'm not willing to spend my time replying to every innuendo anyone can dream up. No, my 'mate' doesn't sell the Bespoke Audio TVC, as I clearly stated in an earlier thread. I work on the assumption that people are honest, and that what they say, they mean. I have stated, repeatedly, that I have no involvement in any part of the audio trade. If you don't accept that, just say so, and I will not contribute again.
As for your Technics, it's not a subject which particularly interests me. We can't be interested in everything in this hobby. I have no view on it, and that's why I have never made any comment on it. I doubt if you are interested in my SME deck either, but why does that matter? Life goes on either way. We can't audition or judge everything.
And the fact that some people like expensive bits of audio has just as much to do with the hobby as people who like low cost stuff. I use a pricey deck, but my amps are Croft and rebuild Quad 11s. Less than £2000 all in. We don't have to be in one 'camp' . It's a broad church.
Bake off some time back. I get called into the room amid cries of "the walls have disappeared!!!".
Two TVCs - one MFA and one Prometheus. MFA to 211 monos feeding just the Apogee mid/high ribbon. Prom to W4S 500Watt monos on bass.
I came into the room and the speakers sounded like they were imaging outside the bounds of the room. Truly extraordinary we were all gobsmacked.
Tried again sometime later with Denon POA monos on the bass and 211s on the mid/high both fed via the Air Tight passive. Completely unable to replicate the former setup. Huge disappointment.
Those TVCs weren't too bad, I thought. The Denon's definitely were shit sounding with Apogees - despite high Watts they sounded thin and weedy.
Marco, I'm not willing to spend my time replying to every innuendo anyone can dream up. No, my 'mate' doesn't sell the Bespoke Audio TVC, as I clearly stated in an earlier thread.
First of all, I thought you had a friend who owned a hi-fi shop, so why put 'mate' in inverted commas? Is it too informal a term for you? Ok, but I'm pretty sure that he sells Music First designs, at similar price points.
I work on the assumption that people are honest, and that what they say, they mean. I have stated, repeatedly, that I have no involvement in any part of the audio trade. If you don't accept that, just say so, and I will not contribute again.
Of course I accept it. I know you're not in the hi-fi trade, but that doesn't mean you're not keen to promote expensive equipment, for the benefit of your friend. That may not be the case either, but I'm afraid it's often how you come across.
As for your Technics, it's not a subject which particularly interests me.
Well, that's fine, but I would appreciate it then, if in future you refrained from making any references to it (or others like it), however oblique, as you know very little about the subject. You have plenty of experience in other areas, Peter, so please stick to discussing those.
We can't be interested in everything in this hobby. I have no view on it, and that's why I have never made any comment on it. I doubt if you are interested in my SME deck either, but why does that matter?
Yes I'd love to hear how my humble 'tarted up DJ deck' stacks up to an SME20, or whatever it is you have. It would be a valuable learning curve for me. However, you don't appear to be up for that... Which is it: unsociable Internet recluse, lol, or have you got something to lose? ;)
And the fact that some people like expensive bits of audio has just as much to do with the hobby as people who like low cost stuff. I use a pricey deck, but my amps are Croft and rebuild Quad 11s. Less than £2000 all in. We don't have to be in one 'camp' . It's a broad church.
Sure, I completely agree. That doesn't mean, however, I have to agree with it, or that I can't question the validity of that approach.
Marco.
[QUOTE=Marco;683413]First of all, I thought you had a friend who owned a hi-fi shop, so why put 'mate' in inverted commas? Is it too informal a term for you? Ok, but I'm pretty sure that he sells Music First designs, at similar price points.
Of course I accept it. I know you're not in the hi-fi trade, but that doesn't mean you might not be keen to promote expensive equipment, for the benefit of your friend. That may not be the case either, but I'm afraid it's often how you come across. Quote
No, that's more than enough. . You pretend to 'accept' that I'm honest and then just repeat the slur. No matter what I say, you and a couple of your pals just find other ways to smear me. It's your forum and you are welcome to it.
BTW: What has Music First got to do with anything? I never mentioned it, and it's an entirely separate company...as you have already been told.
Paskinn your form of marketing propaganda is quite remarkable. You make a lot of assumptions regarding that which I wrote - perhaps such misrepresentation suits your agenda; but for those less biased I didn't write any of that which you suggest. I didn't say that this product would sound better with silver cable, but Music First certainly think so and for 9K I would rather less was spent on hand embroidered, monogrammed velvet bags, exotic inlays and gold plated knobs and rather more on the actual content. No doubt this product does work well, but then so do the Music First designs and at significantly less cost (and very much the same parts). So it's a 2K passive (already ridiculous for two transformers and two switches) in an exceedingly elaborate party dress. Of course people are free to spend their money as they see fit, but please don't try to convince me that any of the costly bespoke aesthetic adds to the sound quality in any way. I don't even think it's a waste of money, I just think your defence of it as 'a bargain' is laughable.
Yet more avoidance...
No, that's more than enough. . You pretend to 'accept' that I'm honest and then just repeat the slur. No matter what I say, you and a couple of your pals just find other ways to smear me. It's your forum and you are welcome to it.
I do accept that you're not in the hi-fi trade yourself, but as yet I'm not quite sure if your presence here doesn't have some form of commercial agenda behind it. Clearly, you don't take kindly to that suggestion, to the extent that it only further increases my suspicions. I'm reminded here of the notion: 'He who protesteth the loudest'.
Anyway, is this another one of your girly strops/toys out the pram episodes you treat us to occasionally, or something more permanent this time? You really don't like your rather rigid opinions on audio robustly challenged, do you, or the notion exposed that your presence on forums may have some form of ulterior motive?
BTW: What has Music First got to do with anything? I never mentioned it, and it's an entirely separate company...as you have already been told.
Told, eh? Yes, sir, sorry sir! I was simply stating that it is my understanding your 'hi-fi shop-owning friend' sells Music First products, which themselves aren't exactly 'pocket money'.
Marco.
For the avoidance of doubt, Music First preamplifiers are priced as follows:
Classic pre £1700 GBP plus VAT
Classic V2 £2500 GBP plus VAT
Baby Reference £4900 GBP plus VAT
Nothing even approaching £9k there.
http://www.mfaudio.co.uk
(I used to own a Classic pre when I had a valve power amplifier, but other than that, I have no link with the company or anyone selling its products).
The £9k preamplifier is made by the Bespoke Audio Company:
http://www.thebespokeaudiocompany.com/#003
£5k's not exactly 'sweetie money', though.
Marco.
The budget one isn't exactly a casual purchase either.
I'l leave it to others to judge. I'l never get a fair hearing here. Note how Ywoan misquotes his own contribution. He criticises Bespoke for not using silver wire and then tries to deny it by quoting an entirely separate company! You can't really discuss with such people. Bet he was a great salesman.
Anyway, you can smear away. I'l let others make up their own mind. Good luck with the forum.
£5k's not exactly 'sweetie money', though.
Marco.
No, but £2,040 for the Classic pre isn't a huge amount in hifi terms.
for 9K I would rather less was spent on hand embroidered, monogrammed velvet bags, exotic inlays and gold plated knobs and rather more on the actual content. No doubt this product does work well, but then so do the Music First designs and at significantly less cost (and very much the same parts). So it's a 2K passive (already ridiculous for two transformers and two switches) in an exceedingly elaborate party dress.
Quite. The "ridiculous for two transformers and two switches" bit is why I also mentioned Music First. If £2k is ridiculous, what's £5k?
£5k, £9k - who cares? It's all 'silly money' for a passive preamp!
:exactly:
Marco.
I must admit I think they are expensive and compared to LDRs and conventional pots or discrete jobbies they are.
No, but £2,040 for the Classic pre isn't a huge amount in hifi terms.
Still a lot of dosh for a passive, Joe, considering what they consist of. It's not a CD player, amplifier or turntable we're talking about.
Marco.
Still a lot of dosh for a passive, Joe, considering what they consist of. It's not a CD player, amplifier or turntable we're talking about.
Marco.
Some people would pay that much for a cartridge!
I'l leave it to others to judge. Bye bye, good luck with the forum.
You really should look in the mirror, Peter, and embrace reality, by reading how your contributions come across, than pretending the responses you get are anyone's fault other than your own, and then stropping off like a petulant child when things don't go your way. As ever, you're free to return whenever you wish, or not, so please suit yourself.
Marco.
Some people would pay that much for a cartridge!
I'd argue that a hand-built MC cartridge takes rather more expertise to design than a passive preamp.
Marco.
I'd argue that a hand-built MC cartridge takes rather more expertise to design than a passive preamp.
Marco.
I'd be equally unable to design or build either of them, so cannot comment!
You really should look in the mirror, Peter, and embrace reality, by reading how your contributions come across, than pretending the responses you get are anyone's fault other than your own, and then stropping off when things don't go your way. As ever, you're free to return whenever you wish, or not, so please suit yourself.
Marco.
Tell you what Marco, for everyone contributing to this thread, there will be hundreds reading it. I find that most people are pretty perceptive...
The reason I take exception has nothing to do with anyone's opinions, bring them on...it's because instead of sticking to the issue you and your pals make nasty, unfair, allegations about my motives. You don't play the ball, you attack the player. Without offering one scrap of actual evidence.
That's what I dislike, especially coming from the owner of the forum. You don't seem to know the difference between discussing an issue and making personal attacks.
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