View Full Version : "Super-Sound Cord style" Interconnects
Firebottle
25-08-2015, 17:03
To see what the crack was with these interconnects I have made myself a 1m pair.
...and saved myself a packet in doing so :)
What is the general consensus about which end should be connected to the power amp, the end with the earthed screens or the end with the floating screens?
Thanks for any advice.
:cool:
I don't think it matters as long as it's consistently the same end... For this purpose I have a small bit of tape on mine.
Both ends are the same on mine,i have never heard any difference which ever way they are connected.:confused::scratch:
Ammonite Audio
25-08-2015, 19:11
To see what the crack was with these interconnects I have made myself a 1m pair.
...and saved myself a packet in doing so :)
What is the general consensus about which end should be connected to the power amp, the end with the earthed screens or the end with the floating screens?
Thanks for any advice.
:cool:
I may be wrong but I don't think that your description reflects the construction of the NVA SSC. I have two pairs, which are truly excellent, and were so inexpensive that DIY seemed a waste of my time. My only comment about SSC is that it is no good for low level phono duties, eg between my SUT and phono amp, because it is susceptible to hum fields.
Gordon Steadman
25-08-2015, 19:30
A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled. Fire belched from its riven summit. The skies burst into thunder seared with lightning. Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain. And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.
ohoohoo :eek:
what base material (cable) did u use ? how many strands ? any pics ?
Again I'll say, it doesn't matter. I use mine consistently the same way. They are of NVA construction.
A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled. Fire belched from its riven summit. The skies burst into thunder seared with lightning. Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain. And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.
Well, quite. We've all had days like that.
Tolkein can paint a picture cant he. nice quote Gordon. I always liked this one since I read it. “Life is worth living and no matter what it throws at you it is important to keep your eyes on the prize of the happiness that will come. Even when the Death Railway reduced us to little more than animals, humanity in the shape of our saintly medical officers triumphed over barbarism.
Remember, while it always seems darkest before the dawn, perseverance pays off and the good times will return.”
Firebottle
26-08-2015, 05:42
ohoohoo :eek:
what base material (cable) did u use ? how many strands ? any pics ?
I've now learnt some more about the SSC construction and have got it slightly wrong, though why you would want a Faraday cage around only part of the overall system I don't know.
I can easily amend to the actual construction and will do further listening tests.
The cable I have used is RG316/U http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-ft-RG316-U-RG316-Equiv-Excellent-Quality-Coax-Cable-USA-SELLER-FREE-SHIPPING-/251237252458?hash=item3a7ee83d6a
:)
As mentioned earlier, if you are trying to duplicate the construction of SSC then the shields aren't connected at all. The centre stranded conductor of one length is the hot and the other cable the return (two lengths of coax per channel). Personally I found them disappointingly poor when I tried them with a rather contrived sound.
As I recall Mark and with all due respect, you dissed the first set, caused an outcry of protests, so tried them again, finding them not quite as bad as you thought previously!
What the heck guys. SSC isn't so expensive when compared to other online interconnects. The price of better quality RG316U on Farnell is over a ton for 25m drums and the 'official' stuff I use comes on 100m drums - I've seen it and use it, but swear I have no knowledge of the source of the *actual* cable used and just have to trust in what I'm told about it. No direction, no fuss, but a very 'master tape' kind of literal quality which works incredibly well in some systems. I hear differences in recordings, recording venue and find I can hear deeply into recorded mixes with no effort. Does it for me in my increasingly NVA based workroom system and those phono plugs aren't anything like as tacky as they look - so there! :)
'The Doc' has a way with doing things and is genuinely very careful with the raw materials he uses in his products. He does it his way for well thought out reasons, some of which are becoming clearer to more people as time goes on. Many ways of getting from A to B and it's the same in audio and I'm very much enjoying this 'alternative route' to getting there :)
The HH amp really likes Klotz cables, both the AC110 and MC5000. Brian here does a lovely job making up the MC5000/MS plugs and again, doesn't charge much for labour - and it DOES take time to make them up properly, as it does the 'official' SSC - another quite expensive wire by the standards of the stuff sold for far more money elsewhere. Old friend Chris and I also use MC5000's with our passively driven Crown power amps and the whole is definitely better than the sum of the parts.
Far better cable to play with is the Ecoflex 10, a 10.2mm rf cable with seven thick copper cores and a heavily woven copper screen. Difficult to bend and to find half decent phono connectors for, but I love the stuff and it works a dream with the Krell KSA 50S driven from the P50 passive.
You know chaps, many people would faint at all this cable speak, but seriously Mr Firebottle, there are far better cable types to try out - catalogues full of the stuff - and some of these lend themselves to all manner of wiring configurations, with or without the shield/drain being connected at whatever end works best :)
As mentioned earlier, if you are trying to duplicate the construction of SSC then the shields aren't connected at all. The centre stranded conductor of one length is the hot and the other cable the return (two lengths of coax per channel). Personally I found them disappointingly poor when I tried them with a rather contrived sound.
Like any interconnect they are going to perform differently when connecting different kit. With some combinations of kit/interconnects the difference is marginal or non-existent, with others it can make things noticably better or worse.
I found after trying many, many interconnects and never being entirely happy with the results that the SSC worked absolutely perfectly in my system, and still do. You can try them on 30 day sale or return and they are not expensive in any case so Alan, I don't really see the point of making them DIY, especially as the manufacturer claims that the specific type of cable used is not available off the shelf in any case.
Cagey, (Kevin) sent me some NVA interconnects (I think it was SSCs, but Kevin can confirm), and I thought they were great overall, with perhaps being just a tad bass-light. However, all manner of things could've been responsible for that, as these things are very system dependent.
For the money, however, they were pretty good :)
Marco.
Firebottle
26-08-2015, 15:39
Like any interconnect they are going to perform differently when connecting different kit. With some combinations of kit/interconnects the difference is marginal or non-existent, with others it can make things noticably better or worse. Fully agree.
.... I don't really see the point of making them DIY, especially as the manufacturer claims that the specific type of cable used is not available off the shelf in any case.
As the cable was in my stock and I had the inexpensive connectors already I though I would give them a go, total cost about £6. A bit different to £70.
I am sure the RG316U is as close a match to the 'aeronautical grade' as makes no difference.
It was good of the designer to correct the error of my ways with the construction, I've now tried them with screens unconnected and can hear no difference.
The capacitance is 3 times lower with the screens unconnected but with well designed stages with low output impedance this will have no noticeable difference.
:)
Cagey, (Kevin) sent me some NVA interconnects (I think it was SSCs, but Kevin can confirm), and I thought they were great overall, with perhaps being just a tad bass-light. However, all manner of things could've been responsible for that, as these things are very system dependent.
For the money, however, they were pretty good :)
Marco.
Yep, an original, unmolested set of NVA SSC.
I've used them with a variety of power amps now, valve and solid state with excellent results. If you are using an NVA passive pre and you are not using these or the more expensive NVA cables - you absolutely must try them. When Alan brought round his OTL amp I used them to connect that up and that was the best sound I have ever had from my system, comparable with a system I had heard some months previously in a dealers that was north of £20,000. And that was with my fairly humble vinyl source.
Not forgiven you yet for letting me hear that OTL amp, Alan, I'm worried it has ruined anything else for me. :)
Firebottle
26-08-2015, 18:38
Looks like I've rattled the cage elsewhere about my £6 leads.
Always a case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Just because I post a link to a site showing where to buy RG316 doesn't mean i got it from there.
If fact it cost me nothing :finger:
Alan, remember the rule we have in place here about 'elsewhere' ;)
Let's stick to just discussing cables, mate :)
Marco.
Alan,
If you buy 'pukka' RG316U from Farnell and others, you'll have a price of over £100 for a 25m drum. That's a fiver a metre and you'd need four metres for an SSC style cable. I don't know about the cheap stuff on eBay, but looking on the Mouser site and others a year or so ago, I noticed that the internal construction wasn't entirely consistent from site to site. This may well be ok at MHz frequencies, but it's claimed that it isn't satisfactory at audio ones.
I've already stated with no prejudice that the drums of the stuff I've had access to for work are around 100m. RD has already published his margins ages ago and they're a heck of a lot less than many other manufacturers quite well known here.
Apologies folks. I'm going to report this thread and ask for it to be renamed = RG316U cable experiments. Like I said earlier, there are other cables that may suit better - Klotz as Marco uses with his own valve gear (and I think I'd agree with his sentiments, but maybe from a different perspective) and the Ecoflex 10 which I like very much as a great blend of 'everything.'.
Apologies folks. I'm going to report this thread and ask for it to be renamed = RG316U cable experiments.
No need to report anything, Dave, as I'm reading the thread. In fact, while we're on the subject of reporting posts/threads, please only do that if someone is being threatened/abused or pictures of porn have been posted, or similar inappropriate content. *That* is what the report post button is for. Nothing else! ;)
In all other circumstances, such as what you're attempting to do here, please send a PM to either one of the mods or myself.
Ok, if it's considered that renaming the title of the thread, as you've suggested, is appropriate, and Alan (the OP) agrees, then we'll do it. I'm afraid that I don't have the technical knowledge, in reference to the construction of this cable, to form a valid opinion on the matter.
Therefore, in that respect, I will take the advice of others with the necessary knowledge, before action is taken or not. My view is that I don't want any manufacturer's product misrepresented, so if that is actually happening, then the thread title will be changed as suggested.
Marco.
I can only ask politely. I was looking for my own RG316U a year ago and this is how I came by slightly different innards within the broad specification as well as prices. Maybe it makes no difference and if it doesn't I apologise, but still..
Point noted regarding the proper meaning of 'report post.' Absolutely NO negative feelings towards people in any way here.
Like I said, Dave, I'm perfectly willing to change the thread title, if the NVA cables in question are being misrepresented in the way you say. I don't use these cables, and so know almost nothing about them, which is why I can't comment either way on the matter.
Marco.
Floyddroid
26-08-2015, 20:03
The SSC is identical to the Witch Hat Audio interconnects i was using until recently. i found them a little bass light too. The problem is a lot of cables do look identical and it makes you wonder if they are indeed the same item?
Firebottle
26-08-2015, 20:16
Alan, remember the rule we have in place here about 'elsewhere' ;)
Let's stick to just discussing cables, mate :)
Marco.
No problem Marco. I was just trying out a cable that I thought was an equivalent to the NVA. I have now been appraised of the construction by Mark and have now tried this out.
As far as I can tell the particular cable is technically equivalent to the RG316U I have referenced. If this helps others on AoS to try it I am happy.
The price I have quoted is that what it cost ME to make and is only in reference to the parts I had available in stock, with many materials at no cost :)
This thread looks to be very suspect:
going to make "NVA Super Sound Cord":
gives link to supplier of cheap lengths, later claims it wasn't used as he had some already :scratch:
gets construction wrong :doh:
doesn't buy plugs, has some already I guess :scratch:
then claims cost at only £6
seems to be reading another forum to see effect of thread on manufacturer, hence use of :finger: in his post.
How sad :rolleyes:
Gordon Steadman
26-08-2015, 20:45
This thread looks to be very suspect:
going to make "NVA Super Sound Cord":
gives link to supplier of cheap lengths, later claims it wasn't used as he had some already :scratch:
gets construction wrong :doh:
doesn't buy plugs, has some already I guess :scratch:
then claims cost at only £6
seems to be reading another forum to see effect of thread on manufacturer, hence use of :finger: in his post.
How sad :rolleyes:
You read elsewhere - go figure!
I read lots, all over the place - not really a sensible response on your part old chap!
Guy,
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything you've written, and you're entitled to your opinion, but is virtually the only time you're going to use this forum when you're defending your favourite manufacturer?
That's what you always seem to do: pop in to defend NVA, then disappear again, until the next time you're 'needed'. It's rather tedious. Is that way it's always going to be, or can we expect you to take a more active and regular role in the AoS community, when other topics are being discussed?
Anyway, we're renaming the thread 'Super Sound Cord-styled interconnects', as I think that's the fairest thing to do, both in the interests of Alan and NVA.
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
26-08-2015, 20:56
I read lots, all over the place - not really a sensible response on your part old chap!
If Marco will forgive me....Marco is a monster, I'm a moron, Alan is a shill, Richard is a....etc etc. We do not exist in a vacuum. Sometimes you reap what you sow in this world and with the best will in the world some people are, surprisingly, going to find it difficult to ignore constant insult from elsewhere. The idea that you can say one thing somewhere and carry on elsewhere as if it didn't happen is crazy.
You know very well what I meant.
I don't disagree, Gordon, certainly with your last point.
As you know, though, the subject matter is inappropriate. However, since this has been brought up, and I'd like a response from Guy to my last post, I'll allow a few posts [no more than that] about the matter to stand, in order to get it 'off of everyone's chests', as it were.
After that, however, it'll be strictly back to the thread topic!
Marco.
Guy,
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything you've written, and you're entitled to your opinion, but is virtually the only time you're going to use this forum when you're defending your favourite manufacturer?
That's what you always seem to do: pop in to defend NVA, then disappear again, until the next time you're 'needed'. It's rather tedious. Is that way it's always going to be, or can we expect you to take a more active and regular role in the AoS community, when other topics are being discussed?
Anyway, we're renaming the thread 'Super Sound Cord-styled interconnects', as I think that's the fairest thing to do, both in the interests of Alan and NVA.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I don't write many responses to threads (on any forum), preferring to read. However, Your comment worried me, so I had a look at my history.
The last time I contributed to a thread here which could be construed as in defence of NVA was over six months ago, and that was merely providing technical data on the composition of the cable used.
Sure, Guy, but you do have a habit of popping up, as described, and then disappearing again into the ether, which does give the impression I've outlined, although I accept the point that you're more of a reader than a contributor :)
In reference to what Gordon wrote, quite simply when you have 'history', then the baggage you carry around, in that respect, is always going to haunt you - and the Internet world of audio enthusiasts is a small one! 'Nuff said... ;)
Marco.
I've used them with a variety of power amps now, valve and solid state with excellent results. If you are using an NVA passive pre and you are not using these or the more expensive NVA cables - you absolutely must try them. When Alan brought round his OTL amp I used them to connect that up and that was the best sound I have ever had from my system, comparable with a system I had heard some months previously in a dealers that was north of £20,000. And that was with my fairly humble vinyl source.
Not forgiven you yet for letting me hear that OTL amp, Alan, I'm worried it has ruined anything else for me. :)
Macca, has it right here. On their own they're a good cable, running from my passive to NVA power amps they're excellent.
Used in conjunction with the NVA speaker cable you start to get close to the sum of the parts thing. Dare I say synergy.
Mock ups of NVA construction cables are one thing, hearing then in the context of matching components and system is another.
Yup, that's why my comments about SSCs being somewhat 'bass-light' should be viewed solely in the context of my system, which is what was used to audition them. Incidentally, I made the remark about them being bass-light when I first posted my impressions [check the archive]. It was not influenced by what anyone else has said about SSCs.
In an all-NVA system, the results may be rather different, although even DSJR can relate to where I'm coming from in that respect, so perhaps there's something in it, as NO cable is perfect. As ever, it's all about choosing your compromises, which is what I did with the Klotz MC-5000s: not 'perfect', but simply 'musically right' in my system.
One thing I don't buy is that valve amps are inherently not as capable of revealing sonic differences in cables, as much as solid-state amps. I've had the same valve amps for years, and during that time I've been able to very clearly, easily, and repeatedly identify differences between various cables, which often correspond with what others have reported about the same cables, using SS amps.
Coincidence? I don't think so! ;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
27-08-2015, 12:27
As far as Transistor amps versus valve amps are concerned, and their abilty to detect diffrences in speaker cables, we first have to understand the main diffrences between them, Transistor amps usualy have ultra low output impedances, conventional valve amps have an impedance due to them having an output transformer etc.
Cables have three main aspects to consider, Resistance, Reactance, and Capacitance.
In my opinion, a traditionaly designed valve amp should actualy be more affected by the design, and type of cables on its output than a transistor amp, where its output impedance is so low to start with, that any small amount of resistance, or reacatance is negligible, and should therefore have little to no affect. Transistor amps are however quite sensitive to Capacitance,and anything above the norm can in some cases cause the amp to become unstable, oscillate or worse, which is why some high end, high capacitance cables have inductors fitted in an attempt to negate this effect on transistor amps.
All of the above will depend greatly to a degree on the type of speakers used, ie; cross-overs, drivers etc.
I really think that we should stop knit picking about statistics of one design over the other, and just respect each technology for what it is, and how it performs within the realms of a whole system.
A...
As far as Transistor amps versus valve amps are concerned, and their abilty to detect diffrences in speaker cables...
Just to pick you up on this, Anthony, we're discussing interconnects here, not speaker cables. Does what you've written still apply? :)
Marco.
I appreciate I'm not an engineer, so may have my wires crossed (in every sense! :rolleyes:), but valve amps seem to have very high input impedances in comparison with solid state equivalents and with many sources, this *may* be beneficial where interconnects and so on are concerned. Transformer quality is vital for valve amps using them and not all sound warm and lush.
Apparently, the different technologies put different emphasis on LCR parameters, I'm told valve amps typically use voltages and solid state use current. Since this isn't a skill area for me, I should shut up on this.
At the end of the day, try the things in your own system and see how you get on. The HH and Crown amps love the MC5000 cable, each playing to their own strengths. The SSC based cables I use are superb with the NVA based workroom system and I'm very happy, as each 'combination' aims to get to the same place and does a darned good job for me, the HH, crown and now Krell amps sounding a bit more 'human' than they did (s'cuse the description) and the NVA delivering emotional connection in spades, but having better 'grip' and 'presence' as the matching cables get better, if you see what I mean.
Being able to make ones own cables can save money, but online suppliers don't always rip you off you know.
Btw, the reason why I prefer Klotz MC5000s (fitted with MS Audio plugs) to any other interconnect cables I've used, SSCs included, has got fook all to do with "adding a slight 'bloom' to lower mids downwards", as you've mentioned elsewhere. I don't choose cables that exhibit such obvious tonal coloration.
I prefer them simply because they 'marry' best, to my ears, sonically and musically, with the components in my system.
Furthermore, I didn't find the SSCs to be any more 'truthful', either, than my reference MC5000s ('truthfulness' is a trait I'd always want in any cables or components), simply that the SSCs lacked the ability to properly deliver the low-end extension that I *know* from experience is inherently contained in some of my test recordings. Aside from that, they were fine.
Therefore, it's got shit all to do with deliberately inducing "bloom", so please get that one out of your head, Dave - certainly as the reason why I chose MC5000s. However, it might be why you like them, if that's what they do in your system, which is fine :)
Marco.
As an aside, in reference to valve vs. SS amps, and their respective abilities to reveal differences between cables, has 'Wiki-boy' been scouring the net again for technical information that helps fulfil the illusion he creates as an audio engineering 'guru':
http://www.academia.edu/7550217/EVAL...NOUS_GENERATOR
"In general reactance shall be defined as “non-resistive component of impedance in an AC circuit, arising from the effect of inductance or capacitance or both and causing the current to be out of phase with the electromotive force causing it”.
Now where have I read something almost identical very recently? :hmm: :hmm:
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
27-08-2015, 14:32
As an aside, in reference to valve vs. SS amps, and their respective abilities to reveal differences between cables, has 'Wiki-boy' been scouring the net again for technical information that helps fulfil the illusion he creates as an audio engineering 'guru':
http://www.academia.edu/7550217/EVAL...NOUS_GENERATOR
"In general reactance shall be defined as “non-resistive component of impedance in an AC circuit, arising from the effect of inductance or capacitance or both and causing the current to be out of phase with the electromotive force causing it”.
Now where have I read something almost identical very recently? :hmm: :hmm:
Marco.
I understood the headline. Well....some of the words in it.
The point is, Mr Dunn appears to have copied that section of the article, almost verbatim, in order to back up his assertions, and 'kid on' that he knows what he's talking about. Hilarious! :D
This is what he wrote 'over the road':
AnthonyTD is an expert on electronics, yet he thinks reactance is inductance - wrong :rolleyes:
Reactance is the components of the impedance in an AC circuit, arising from the effects of resistance inductance and capacitance and causing the current to be out of phase with the electromotive force causing it.
Compare that with a quote from the above article:
"In general reactance shall be defined as “non-resistive component of impedance in an AC circuit, arising from the effect of inductance or capacitance or both and causing the current to be out of phase with the electromotive force causing it”.
Article in question [see underneath the word 'Abstract', beginning from the third line down]: http://www.academia.edu/7550217/EVALUATION_OF_REACTANCES_AND_TIME_CONSTANTS_OF_SYN CHRONOUS_GENERATOR
Both statements are virtually identical.
I suppose that the wording used must just be a freak coincidence...!! Mr Dunn claims he's never seen the article before, or anything resembling it. 'Course not. And I'm Santa Claus... ;)
Marco.
marco can I remind you what you wrote .........why not follow your own advice and stick to the thread discussion about a rather poorly thought through cable design imo
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For example, if someone wants to advertise their NVA amplifiers or cables for sale, or post queries about NVA products and services in other areas of the forum, or discuss their NVA equipment, then this will be permitted, [B]provided that no mention of Richard Dunn is made, out with of him simply being the owner of NVA and the designer of the company's products. Most importantly, no reference whatsoever must be made to the HFS website or its members.
We trust that all AoS members will respect our decision and comply with this new ruling, as we feel that the decision to implement it was necessary in order to maintain the friendliness and harmony within our community that AoS has now become renowned for. We hope that you continue to enjoy contributing to the forum and being a valued part of our community.
Many thanks in advance for your co-operation!
Marco.
And may I remind you, Pete, of what I wrote earlier, which is precisely why this matter is (temporarily) being discussed:
As you know, though, the subject matter is inappropriate. However, since this has been brought up, and I'd like a response from Guy to my last post, I'll allow a few posts [no more than that] about the matter to stand, in order to get it 'off of everyone's chests', as it were.
After that, however, it'll be strictly back to the thread topic!
It'll be 'back to the thread topic' again, unless anyone cares to comment on what appears to be the blatant copying of technical information elsewhere, by RD, in order to appear as 'clever'. Turns out he just uses Google, and the info uncovered therein, to 'kid on' he's a technical expert, which is pretty much the same as I was accusing him of earlier.
He's certainly earned his nickname of 'Wiki-boy', or perhaps it should be 'Google-boy'..... ;)
I mean, why would anyone, who claims to be technically knowledgeable, need to use Google in the first place to support their argument - and worse, not accredit their source of information, disguising it instead to appear as if they wrote it?? :hmm:
Marco.
anthonyTD
27-08-2015, 15:22
Not wanting to fan the flames, or pander to pettiness elswhere, However' nowhere in my original post concerning this did i quote that a cable doesent have inductance, i quote "Cables have three main aspects to consider, Resistance, Reactance, and Capacitance" Note, three main aspects to consider!
Maybe my choice of wording or phrasing could have been better, it was after-all within the context of the point i was trying to get across,:doh: note to self, must try harder next time! :eek:
The point is, Mr Dunn appears to have copied that section of the article, almost verbatim, in order to back up his assertions, and kid on that he knows what he's talking about. Hilarious! :D
This is what he wrote 'over the road':
Compare that with a quote from the above article:
"In general reactance shall be defined as “non-resistive component of impedance in an AC circuit, arising from the effect of inductance or capacitance or both and causing the current to be out of phase with the electromotive force causing it”.
Article in question [see underneath the word 'Abstract', beginning from the third line down]: http://www.academia.edu/7550217/EVALUATION_OF_REACTANCES_AND_TIME_CONSTANTS_OF_SYN CHRONOUS_GENERATOR
Both statements are virtually identical.
I suppose that the wording used must just be a freak coincidence...!! Mr Dunn claims he's never seen the article before, or anything resembling it. 'Course not. And I'm Santa Claus... ;)
Marco.
Anthony, does it matter that you were talking about speaker cables, in relation to the ability of an amplifier to reveal cable differences, and we are talking about interconnects?
Marco.
anthonyTD
27-08-2015, 16:06
Marco,
Sorry, the post i made was actually concerning Speaker cable affects on the two different topologies, Interconnects can have varying affects to the same degree on both, depending on input impedance, and capacitance, traditional valve amp designs usually had high input impedances, due mainly to the fact that valves are high impedance devices when compared to Transistors, on a positive note though, they have very low input capacitance, also, the fact that most source equipment of the day had low voltage signal output, and drive capabilities, it made sense to leave the front end open and thus as sensitive as possible, these days, due mainly to the fact that most source equipment has a healthy line level output, the gap between input impedance, between both Valve amps and Transistor amps has decreased somewhat, therefore, the affects of interconnect cables between the two has become more comparable, however, due to the nature of the two different technologies, there can still be wide variation with some cables over the other as far as sonic capabilities, within the context of one technology over the other, and its application.
Anthony, does it matter that you were talking about speaker cables, in relation to the ability of an amplifier to reveal cable differences, and we are talking about interconnects?
Marco.
also, the fact that most source equipment of the day had low voltage signal output, and drive capabilities, it made sense to leave the front end open and thus as sensitive as possible, these days, due mainly to the fact that most source equipment has a healthy line level output, the gap between input impedance, between both Valve amps and Transistor amps has decreased somewhat, therefore, the affects of interconnect cables between the two has become more comparable.
Yup, gotcha! The bit in bold I think is a rather relevant point :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
27-08-2015, 17:57
Seems i have to spell it out again for some, Input Capacitance, as in Grid Capacitance! As in Transistors, it would be Base, or in a FET, it would be Gate! :rolleyes:
Marco,
Sorry, the post i made was actually concerning Speaker cable affects on the two different topologies, Interconnects can have varying affects to the same degree on both, depending on input impedance, and capacitance, traditional valve amp designs usually had high input impedances, due mainly to the fact that valves are high impedance devices when compared to Transistors, on a positive note though, they have very low input capacitance, also, the fact that most source equipment of the day had low voltage signal output, and drive capabilities, it made sense to leave the front end open and thus as sensitive as possible, these days, due mainly to the fact that most source equipment has a healthy line level output, the gap between input impedance, between both Valve amps and Transistor amps has decreased somewhat, therefore, the affects of interconnect cables between the two has become more comparable, however, due to the nature of the two different technologies, there can still be wide variation with some cables over the other as far as sonic capabilities, within the context of one technology over the other, and its application.
anthonyTD
27-08-2015, 18:06
Really sorry for the folk here who have been constructively contributing to this thread, i will now bow out of this discusion, unless i am called upon again for some genuine assistance.:)
A...
As I said earlier:
...why would anyone, who claims to be technically knowledgeable, need to use Google in the first place to support their argument - and worse, not accredit their source of information, disguising it instead to appear as if they wrote it?? :hmm:
Aside from being a fake 'techy' [powered by Google], lol, the man's cluelessness about valve amp design has been fatally exposed, so he's floundering around now, editing his posts to acknowledge his errors. Priceless! :D
He said it best himself:
Not being a valve designer and not having worked with them for decades I have had to do some reading...
So why argue, and act like a clueless numpty, trying to score points against someone [Anthony] who knows them inside out?? :doh:
Anyway, best to leave it there now and return to the thread topic, as you know what they say: "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Marco.
you know what they say: "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Marco.
Very true Marco, very true...
Firebottle
27-08-2015, 19:34
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Marco.
Classic :thumbsup:
Actually I don't find it's that difficult to design using valves, as I've said before it's a question of balancing all the compromises.
Possibly a bit like doing a 3D jigsaw.
:)
julesd68
27-08-2015, 19:58
One thing I don't buy is that valve amps are inherently not as capable of revealing sonic differences in cables, as much as solid-state amps. I've had the same valve amps for years, and during that time I've been able to very clearly, easily, and repeatedly identify differences between various cables, which often correspond with what others have reported about the same cables, using SS amps.
I've been wondering about this Marco. I'm using a valve phono stage into a hybrid amp at the moment and didn't hear any difference between interconnects on the very few times I played with them. But since then I have completely re-tubed the phono stage with NOS tubes to replace the stock tubes, which now gives a much more neutral and revealing sound that shows up differences in source material. Previously it was very pleasant but somewhat 'rose-tinted' with any recording I threw at it. So this made me think about whether it would now also show up any differences in cables. When I get back from hols I will run a little experiment.
anthonyTD
28-08-2015, 08:21
Exactly Alan,
Its about knowing the devices strengths and weaknesses, and finding ways to bring out the best in them! :)
Classic :thumbsup:
Actually I don't find it's that difficult to design using valves, as I've said before it's a question of balancing all the compromises.
Possibly a bit like doing a 3D jigsaw.
:)
I've been wondering about this Marco. I'm using a valve phono stage into a hybrid amp at the moment and didn't hear any difference between interconnects on the very few times I played with them. But since then I have completely re-tubed the phono stage with NOS tubes to replace the stock tubes, which now gives a much more neutral and revealing sound that shows up differences in source material. Previously it was very pleasant but somewhat 'rose-tinted' with any recording I threw at it. So this made me think about whether it would now also show up any differences in cables. When I get back from hols I will run a little experiment.
Hi Jules,
It's like anything else in audio: increase your system's resolving power, by opening the 'window' wider, and what wasn't noticeable before suddenly becomes very clear... That's precisely why the goal with any hi-fi system should always be about striving to obtain maximum information retrieval from recordings, as that's the only way you'll ever get recorded music sounding anything like the real thing! :exactly:
Marco.
Does that include up-sampling? I am not sure about it's benefits and often wonder if I prefer the Red Book 44.1. Perhaps I ought to start another argument:scratch:
Ali Tait
28-08-2015, 17:59
If Marco will forgive me....Marco is a monster, I'm a moron, Alan is a shill, Richard is a....etc etc. We do not exist in a vacuum. Sometimes you reap what you sow in this world and with the best will in the world some people are, surprisingly, going to find it difficult to ignore constant insult from elsewhere. The idea that you can say one thing somewhere and carry on elsewhere as if it didn't happen is crazy.
You know very well what I meant.
Amen brother.
Don't you chaps get fed up with trying to 'open the window' ever wider? There's only so much there in the source material you know ;) In the end, it's the music that wins out and I'd rather have a cheap but capable system and a healthy music collection than an expensive possible bodge-up and three CD's or even worse, three LP's.........
Don't you chaps get fed up with trying to 'open the window' ever wider? There's only so much there in the source material you know ;) In the end, it's the music that wins out and I'd rather have a cheap but capable system and a healthy music collection than an expensive possible bodge-up and three CD's or even worse, three LP's.........
The Very Best of:
Jimi Hendrix
Led Zeppelin
Steely Dan
You're Gripped, Your Sorted, Let's off road!
:rofl:
If it was me, I'd change the Steely Dan one for the Tangerine Dream 83-93 set - can't live without TeeDee from this period.
I'd rather have a cheap but capable system and a healthy music collection.........
Absolutely. Nice to have the best of both worlds, though: an extremely capable system, and a huge (very varied) music collection, on both CD and vinyl [count me in]! ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
28-08-2015, 20:43
Whilst we are allowed, small of me I know (Marco delete this if you are not happy).
Just wanted to say, I haven't visited "the other place" since the last time I posted there, but just wanted to say, Jammy - you're very brave indeed behind a keyboard. Anytime you'd like to repeat to my face the last post you made to me over there, just let me know where and when. Please.
Firebottle
29-08-2015, 06:02
Well after trying the SSC style interconnects, with and without the screens being connected, I have simplified them.
I realised I was using two lengths of my (now understanding how valuable) cable stock so have built them just as a single run.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050092.jpg
I think these are now NVA SC style, and for the performance are a no brained {brained? this is where this thread gets you} to just buy the NVA SC's.
:)
Well after trying the SSC style interconnects, with and without the screens being connected, I have simplified them.
I realised I was using two lengths of my (now understanding how valuable) cable stock so have built them just as a single run.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050092.jpg
I think these are now NVA SC style, and for the performance are a no brained {brained? this is where this thread gets you} to just buy the NVA SC's.
:)
As I own both SC and SSC I must say that in my system the SSC were a clear step up on the SC and agree with all that DSJR has said about getting more of everything as you go through the range.
The benefits you'll get as you move through the range are I think highly dependent upon how well your system resolves the music in the first place.
I'll be bringing my NVA monoblocks to the NEBO and Macca is bringing his passive so if you're there you might get to hear their performance in context. Maybe bring these with you if you're coming Alan and we'll see what's between them both.
The thing that concerns me most about this thread is that at no stage has your version been compared to the NVA ones and that, leaving aside the mudslinging between that place and this place, is how we should properly proceed.
As I own both SC and SSC I must say that in my system the SSC were a clear step up on the SC and agree with all that DSJR has said about getting more of everything as you go through the range.
The benefits you'll get as you move through the range are I think highly dependent upon how well your system resolves the music in the first place.
.
In my set up the SC were very sweet-sounding, almost unrealistically so but a very pleasing sound nonetheless. The only drawback was a slight loss of impact, most noticeable on percussion like snare or rimshots. Moving to SSC the impact was restored at the cost of a little sweetness.
I'll be bringing my NVA monoblocks to the NEBO and Macca is bringing his passive so if you're there you might get to hear their performance in context. Maybe bring these with you if you're coming Alan and we'll see what's between them both.
I'll be there too, so it'll be interesting listening to that. I'll bring some MC5000s along for comparison purposes, and also the Tisbury :)
Marco.
Whilst we are allowed, small of me I know (Marco delete this if you are not happy).
Just wanted to say, I haven't visited "the other place" since the last time I posted there, but just wanted to say, Jammy - you're very brave indeed behind a keyboard. Anytime you'd like to repeat to my face the last post you made to me over there, just let me know where and when. Please.
Maybe book a room at NEBO, sell some tickets. 'Bored with hifi? Come to Room 101 and watch two angry Scotsmen having a punch-up'.
Ok, we've all had our 'wee pop' now, so further contributions to this thread *must* be on-topic and relate solely to the subject of interconnects! Ta :)
Marco.
Fascinating, all these different experiences.
I never found SC 'sweet' in my system, but moving to the SSC build definitely subjectively 'extended' the bass a bit. The TIS I have (70cm long) takes it much further though and in comparison, allows even more of the 'feeling' and 'atmosphere' through. Difficult to explain, but it may well be a very expensive way of combining the Klotz positives with the SSC positive points.
I DO like both the Klotz AC110 AND the MC5000. The MS plugs are a doddle to use, but I've also found the plugs NVA use to 'sound' just as well to me, even if they're nothing like as 'tactile' in my hands. If you can afford it, the rhodium MS plugs are a dream in use. I can easily hear the difference between SC and SSC using the MC5000 and can also hear AC110 vs MC5000 vs. various Van Damme cables (still bloody good and bloody cheap too!!!). Bit of a cobbled together lashup I know, but it works for me and the NVA chain I use is 'NVA pure' from source to speakers.
I have a home made 'Tisbury mk1,' which was my first home build. Well, it's more of a hybrid as the innards are basically a three input P50 but with the Tisbury-style attenuators. Having later now made basically my own P50 preamp, I do think the stock film-pot is slightly better sounding (I haven't tried a better Dale-style attenuator yet, let alone the rather excellent attenuators NVA use in the SA preamp versions).
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/_SCF2929_zpsp3icslwy.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/_SCF2929_zpsp3icslwy.jpg.html)
Maybe it's me being too soft, but it's great what you can learn if you don't 'full-on-challenge' people all the time. I'm really enjoying my current Hifi journey and now I'm making stuff myself now, I do appreciate the sheer effort that goes into the hand made Croft, NVA and Albarry gear for example, the latter using circuit boards but hand assembling them I think, as ATC used to with all of their preamp and amp boards in years gone by and maybe still even now.
i truely believe im a much happier person for not knowing what the hell this thread is about and the abbreviations used :)
ignorance is bliss as they say,except when you stack 2 pairs of 44's and blow your amp up!. well you know the story lol
i truely believe im a much happier person for not knowing what the hell this thread is about and the abbreviations used :)
Hilarious! :lolsign:
Marco.
Ali Tait
29-08-2015, 12:14
Maybe book a room at NEBO, sell some tickets. 'Bored with hifi? Come to Room 101 and watch two angry Scotsmen having a punch-up'.
:D
Ali Tait
29-08-2015, 12:16
I'll be there too, so it'll be interesting listening to that. I'll bring some MC5000s along for comparison purposes, and also the Tisbury :)
Marco.
I'll bring the AVC, should make for an interesting comparison.
anthonyTD
29-08-2015, 12:23
Hi All,
This thread has strayed significantly from its original title, so much so, that i feel a little check is in order.
As much as it pains me to say this, given the issues said manufacturer seems to have with AOS, In no way do i, or should AOS condone, except, or encourage any of its members to make copies of other manufacturers products, its not ethical, and it robs said manufacturers of the profit they deserve from the design and development costs incurred from producing said products in the first place, As far as i am concerned, yes, experiment, and post your findings, if your findings and others are favourable, stick your own neck out, produce the product, and put your own name on it, but please refrain from deliberately naming threads in particular ways that could be seen as being provocative, it serves no useful purpose, from a positive point of view.
Anthony,TD...
No we seem to have moved on to passive preamps - much more interesting ;)
Agreed!
What about one of these Marco?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raphaelite-PRE-PM2-1-Pre-AMP-Audio-hifi-Passive-Magnetic-Preamplifier-brand-new-/261603818894?hash=item3ce8cd7d8e
Proper TVC pre-amp. Quality maker too.
Check out Raphaelite or Sinovt (same company) equipment.
100K Ohm output impedance?! No thank you.
My TVC unit has a quoted 5.5k output impedance.
It looks great and sounds better than any stepped attenuator or pot type passive or active pre-amp I've used and that's a good few.
That is much more plausable. :) Who is the manufacturer: Music First?
As I recall Mark and with all due respect, you dissed the first set, caused an outcry of protests, so tried them again, finding them not quite as bad as you thought previously!
With all due respect Dave that is a very specific interpretation of what I 'found' - are you still being paid by Mr Dunn?
What actually happened is that I tried a length of genuine NVA SSC and, after giving it a very fair trial, concluded that it was poor in most areas and very poor in some. In the interests of fairness I sourced a second sample which was shorter and found it marginally better. People can draw their own conclusions as it is all documented on this forum.
walpurgis
01-09-2015, 19:24
That is much more plausable. :) Who is the manufacturer: Music First?
MingDa
With all due respect Dave that is a very specific interpretation of what I 'found' - are you still being paid by Mr Dunn?
What actually happened is that I tried a length of genuine NVA SSC and, after giving it a very fair trial, concluded that it was poor in most areas and very poor in some. In the interests of fairness I sourced a second sample which was shorter and found it marginally better. People can draw their own conclusions as it is all documented on this forum.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, eh, or in this case what highlights NVA in the most favourable light? ;)
Marco.
I'm not shilling NVA and have tried on my posts always to recommend alternative products too. In fact I've been told I can mention NVA as long as it's relevant to the subject being discussed.
Mark dissed the SSC and confirmed it above. There were plenty of posts with people surprised by this finding, so he tried it again and found it 'not quite as bad!' Where's the lack of truth in that? I find it works perfectly in the NVA part of my system, and is very good with the Krell as well, although this latter amp sounds a bit too 'matter-of-fact' thus fed. I'm using Ecoflex 10 with it and it's fine. The HH and Crown amps prefer the MC5000 and don't mind what plugs I fit to it.
As for work, it's nobody's bloody business in all honesty, but currently, I have no 'boss' save my wife! I do freelance self employed work - my INCOME - assembling and making stuff for NVA (NOT THE CABLES or big stuff currently) and RD gave me a huge leg up to get this started (not money up front, but loads of work to do). I've also been asked to consider a turntable set-up business, but I'm too remote here at the end of the line and don't have facilities to have callers (the extra insurance premiums I now pay to work at home are bad enough as it is). Any extra work in this line would be appreciated at some point to add a basket or two to the portfolio..
I've had huge fun comparing stuff here in recent times and Marco's confirmation that system matching is paramount has been brought home to me yet again. Some amps and many speakers have a taut, 'straight laced' kind of presentation, where others have a looser (in extreme) or 'free-er breathing' kind of quality for example. Cables make a small difference, but can help to balance this well in my current experiences. Also, my needs in amplifiers are not the same as many others, Jerry for instance, so difference of opinion can and will occur. I'm trying to put my findings forward as experience and opinion from my needs, rather than undeniable 'fact!'
Can't disagree with much of what you've said, Dave, other than your recollection of Mark's review of the SSCs, which isn't quite how I remember it. However, I'll let him comment on that if he wants.
One word I wouldn't use, however, is "dissed". How can you disrespect a pair of cables, or does that say something about your loyalty to the person putting money in your pocket now, more than YOU think...? ;)
You have to admit, it's a rather strange choice of language to use.
Marco.
How can I re-word this - Where others including you have regarded SSC as a good cable, if not the one you ended up using for yourself in YOUR system, Mark was VERY unenthusiastic about it and waxed (waned?) lyrical both here I believe, and also in the Audioflat forum. I took the review as damning the cable itself, rather than possibly admitting to compatibility issues. Hell, I don't care much for the Atratus 1 cables I have and that so many here liked, but I do use them in a test situation and they really don't seem to get in the way to any great extent.
One other non NVA way to describe Mark's tastes to mine where cables are concerned. There's a very cheap RCA cable available on eBay and elsewhere -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1m-2m-3m-5m-10m-15m-20m-PURE-OFC-Twin-2-x-Phono-RCA-Stereo-Plug-Cable-Lead-GOLD-/281360490467?var=&hash=item4182645fe3
I first used these fifteen years ago and a now retired local dealer sold loads of them. I (and our once regular poster/mod Reid Malenfant, who wanted them for RGB video use) liked them a lot. I find these cables (and the directly related 3.5mm stereo jack to two phono cable they make) very good in a plain-Jane kind of way and not at all scrappy as other cheap cables can be. Mark bought one to try on the understanding I'd buy it off him if he chose not to keep it. he disliked it intensely and to give credit where due, he sent it to me FOC.
See, we're all different. You've said yourself that you like some of the NVA you've heard. The SSC is a fine cable for many systems, but may not suit everybody. Crap it CERTAINLY isn't and it cannot be made for tuppence either, any more than the MC5000 can, and that's using less expensive phono plugs than the slick MS plugs..
Sure, Dave. I get that. However, Mark is entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else, and he's not duty-bound to express himself in the same was as you or I.
Also, let's remember that even though this is an Internet forum, we're also living in the real world, where people have memories, so if there was any element of 'dissing' on his part, and I'm not saying there was, then consider what Gordon wrote earlier, in relation to the antics of 'he who pays your wages':
Sometimes you reap what you sow in this world and with the best will in the world some people are, surprisingly, going to find it difficult to ignore constant insult from elsewhere. The idea that you can say one thing somewhere and carry on elsewhere as if it didn't happen is crazy.
I'd ask you to think very carefully about that in future before commenting on any NVA gear being 'dissed'. The fact is, how 'fair' life treats you is often directly proportional to how fairly you treat others.
Marco.
How can I re-word this - Where others including you have regarded SSC as a good cable, if not the one you ended up using for yourself in YOUR system, Mark was VERY unenthusiastic about it and waxed (waned?) lyrical both here I believe, and also in the Audioflat forum. I took the review as damning the cable itself, rather than possibly admitting to compatibility issues. Hell, I don't care much for the Atratus 1 cables I have and that so many here liked, but I do use them in a test situation and they really don't seem to get in the way to any great extent.
One other non NVA way to describe Mark's tastes to mine where cables are concerned. There's a very cheap RCA cable available on eBay and elsewhere -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1m-2m-3m-5m-10m-15m-20m-PURE-OFC-Twin-2-x-Phono-RCA-Stereo-Plug-Cable-Lead-GOLD-/281360490467?var=&hash=item4182645fe3
I first used these fifteen years ago and a now retired local dealer sold loads of them. I (and our once regular poster/mod Reid Malenfant, who wanted them for RGB video use) liked them a lot. I find these cables (and the directly related 3.5mm stereo jack to two phono cable they make) very good in a plain-Jane kind of way and not at all scrappy as other cheap cables can be. Mark bought one to try on the understanding I'd buy it off him if he chose not to keep it. he disliked it intensely and to give credit where due, he sent it to me FOC.
See, we're all different. You've said yourself that you like some of the NVA you've heard. The SSC is a fine cable for many systems, but may not suit everybody. Crap it CERTAINLY isn't and it cannot be made for tuppence either, any more than the MC5000 can, and that's using less expensive phono plugs than the slick MS plugs..
I have some of these and they are, for the money excellent.
It may not be on AOS, but since anyone can look, take a gander here -
http://www.audioflat.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=297
I don't find a 'vast' difference between well used MC5000 and well used SSC, but it is there. Maybe my system or ears aren't good enough to tell much difference. maybe it would help your sensibilities to believe this instead?
I still don't see it as "dissing", Dave. It's simply his account of what he heard at the time. However, like I said, even if he was 'dissing SSCs', given what Mark and others have had to put up with from your 'boss' [note the use of inverted commas], is it any wonder why he might want to 'diss' them?
Moreover, and this is something you should take on board, and I'm going to be quite frank with you, because it's obviously passing you by (although achingly obvious to onlookers), so listen up:
You've changed markedly compared with how you were before you started doing work for NVA, as have your views on audio, which are now are rather more NVA-centric than before, often to the extent of fanboy status, which is why you're coming out with comments about 'dissing' a pair of cables, produced by NVA, almost as if it's an affront to YOU.
*Think* about it... You would never have done that before, so what's changed?
Now, none of this means you're not allowed to discuss or recommend NVA (where appropriate), but you should take my remarks on board and ask yourself, deep down, whether they're justified or not, and if you think they are, then do something about it.
Marco.
Marco, please stop putting words into my mouth. It's a bit of bloody wire FFS. The OP wanted to make some up and did so with bits he had lying around, in other words, SSC 'style,' not 'NVA SSC' as original titled.
Mark wrote what I linked to on the Audioflat forum, which I took to be a total dismissal of the cable - don't you? You yourself have tried it and stated that it's a good cable, if not what you wish to use yourself for various reasons clearly stated. So what's wrong? By the way, the only thing that I feel has changed in me is that I don't bang on about Rega so much now :)
I still post occasionally here and always try to put a fairly balanced viewpoint from my experience and knowledge. NVA hardly gets a mention I think you'll find and, if this maker comes up, I've been given permission to correct errors if I think they're there as RD cannot for himself. I'm not suggesting Mark's review is in error as this was his finding in his system, but it does go against the generally positive flow these cables have garnered in other quarters by users with no agenda.
Nobody *told* me to like NVA products and if you could put personal differences with 'The Doc' aside, I think you'd get on well with them yourself at home. I still use my vintage Crowns, the HH has had a little tune up as regards some signal caps and this is better than ever now and the Krell has brought much head scratching and soul-searching too, there being very much good in it as well as things that I think are ott for my needs. FFS, I've stated several times in this thread that I use the Klotz MC5000's in my workroom setup, as it suits the non NVA amps really well, now the lengths I've made have had some months of daily use and I think you'll also find that I've recommended Brian here and his excellent work in making these up as he doesn't charge a ransom for doing it.
I had a fine old time listening to some rather interesting speakers (as well as Harbeths!) at different price points this afternoon. A few new amps (to me) were also thrown into the mix, along with an old endearing favourite amp from the mid 60's which I thankfully now have back in my safe keeping and would probably hang onto if all the others had to go. You want to know something? NO discussion of NVA or its owner at all during the day and in fact, the whole amp experience today made me question just exactly how far we've come in transistor amp design in the last fifty years.
This whole thing over a bit of bloody wire and it's getting personal too. I don't like that, as it jibes with trying to share the benefit of nigh-on fifty years experience and knowledge (ever since I started buying Hi Fi Sound magazine with my pocket money) with others newer to the hobby of which high quality music reproduction is the goal :(
Marco, please stop putting words into my mouth. It's a bit of bloody wire FFS.
You used the word "dissed", not me, so how am I putting words into your mouth??
By using such a word it comes across in the same way as if someone had 'disrespected' your mate. You might not have meant it that way, but how you mean things isn't always how they're interpreted by others.
Mark wrote what I linked to on the Audioflat forum, which I took to be a total dismissal of the cable - don't you?
Not really, but if it was, what exactly is your beef about that? Isn't he entitled to dismiss it totally if he wants?
You yourself have tried it and stated that it's a good cable, if not what you wish to use yourself for various reasons clearly stated.
Absolutely, and I'm sticking to that. Mark doesn't need to, though! That's the point.
By the way, the only thing that I feel has changed in me is that I don't bang on about Rega so much now :)
No, you've just replaced it now with NVA ;)
I still post occasionally here and always try to put a fairly balanced viewpoint from my experience and knowledge. NVA hardly gets a mention I think you'll find and, if this maker comes up, I've been given permission to correct errors if I think they're there as RD cannot for himself.
Yes, and that's fine, but unfortunately it's turned more into you creating mini advertorials for NVA whenever you sense the slightest sniff of an opportunity. The problem is, you don't seem to see that, whereas it is blindingly obvious to everyone else. I'm being completely honest with you here, Dave.
I'm not suggesting Mark's review is in error as this was his finding in his system, but it does go against the generally positive flow these cables have garnered in other quarters by users with no agenda.
So what? He can go against "the generally positive flow these cables have garnered in other quarters" if he wants. I can also disagree in some respects with him about how they sound. It's a free country. He's not breaking any rules of the forum, as long as what he writes on AoS about NVA is solely in relation to hi-fi.
No agenda, though? I have to laugh at that one... Don't you think that your 'boss' has an agenda behind almost everything he writes? Come on, get real! And that being the case, others are thus entitled, should they choose, to have a similar 'agenda'. Or do agendas have the luxury of being granted solely to those whose sentiments you agree with?
This whole thing over a bit of bloody wire and it's getting personal too. I don't like that
Well, I'm sorry, but I'm only telling you how others and I see it - and have seen it for some time. Trust me, I'm not alone in my views, especially on how you've changed since fraternising with someone who used to give you dog's abuse, and who in reality still holds you in similar contempt, but is simply using you now because it suits him. Harsh, but true!
Anyway, I shall say no more on the subject. Do what you will with my advice. Unfortunately, the day will come when I'm proven correct about 'him', because as sure as eggs is eggs, he'll fall out with you eventually, as he does with almost everyone he comes into contact with [and of course it's always THEIR fault :doh:], but I shall refrain from saying 'I told you so'.
Marco.
Yes, and that's fine, but unfortunately it's turned more into you creating mini advertorials for NVA whenever you sense the slightest sniff of an opportunity. The problem is, you don't seem to see that, whereas it is blindingly obvious to everyone else.
How do you know; have you polled the entire AoS membership?
This whole thread is based on a dodgy premise anyway. Would you allow a thread where someone had constructed some knock-off Chord cables, or Nordost cables, then 'reviewed' them and found them underwhelming? I'm guessing not, because those two companies have deep pockets and would take a dim view.
Disclaimer: I am not employed by nva or anyone else.
Of course I haven't polled the entire membership. However, the feedback I've received so far from people strongly suggests it. Therefore that, and the fact that I'm also seeing what they're seeing, is why I hold that view. Dave obviously doesn't though, but I can't force him to see what to others and I seems obvious.
This whole thread is based on a dodgy premise anyway. Would you allow a thread where someone had constructed some knock-off Chord cables, or Nordost cables, then 'reviewed' them and found them underwhelming?
As long as they weren't being referred to as Chord or Nordost cables, and simply influenced by their design, it would be ok, as very few cable designs are patented. The original thread title was also altered to facilitate your point.
Marco.
It isn't hard to find many, many posts on the interent claiming that Nordost and Chord (and many other) cables are a rip-off. Do you really think Nordost and Chord are suing all those people?
You can find good and bad said about pretty much any bit of kit from amplifiers to DACS to speakers. It is called 'opinions' and people are entitled to them. I suppose if you could sue anyone who had a different opinion to you then it would be a paradise for the lawyers, not so much for anyone interested in freedom of speech.
Fortunately almost all hi-fi manufacturers accept that not everyone is going to rate their products highly without accusing them of being on some sort of crusade to destroy their business.
Wakefield Turntables
03-09-2015, 07:54
I always find these cable debates highly amusing on a dull day before work! :eek:
It isn't hard to find many, many posts on the interent claiming that Nordost and Chord (and many other) cables are a rip-off. Do you really think Nordost and Chord are suing all those people?
You can find good and bad said about pretty much any bit of kit from amplifiers to DACS to speakers. It is called 'opinions' and people are entitled to them. I suppose if you could sue anyone who had a different opinion to you then it would be a paradise for the lawyers, not so much for anyone interested in freedom of speech.
Fortunately almost all hi-fi manufacturers accept that not everyone is going to rate their products highly without accusing them of being on some sort of crusade to destroy their business.
I have no problem with bad reviews per se. Indeed, my only in-depth review here on AoS was of a cable, and I didn't think it was much cop. However, if you are going to review a cable, then surely you should buy or borrow said cable, rather than run up a knock-off version that may be slightly, or hugely different to the commercial product, and review that. It's fundamentally dishonest.
My point was that if someone had run up a Chord or Nordost knock off and submitted a 'review' of this fake to AoS, their review would almost certainly not have been allowed to stand.
orbscure
03-09-2015, 08:17
Of course I haven't polled the entire membership. However, the feedback I've received so far from people strongly suggests it. Therefore that, and the fact that I'm also seeing what they're seeing is why I hold that view. Dave obviously doesn't though, but I can't force him to see what to others and I seems obvious.
In that case Marco, I'd better add my public support for the NVA cable solution in my current set-up... I certainly wouldn't want me, as a member of AoS, being tarred with the same brush as those who've given you their feedback, either publicly or privately. After all, irrespective of whether you like a particular individual or not, there are plenty of happy NVA users on AoS, many of who feel intimidated when posting their opinions on any of their product line... ;)
The original thread title was also altered to facilitate your point.
I suppose it could be said that the thread title should have been changed without the need for concerned members to ask for it to be changed...
Cheers
Pete
However, if you are going to review a cable, then surely you should buy or borrow said cable, rather than run up a knock-off version that may be slightly, or hugely different to the commercial product, and review that. It's fundamentally dishonest.
Have you read Mark's review of the SSC on Audioflat, from beginning to END? Because that's what Dave is getting his knickers in a twist about, which prompted this part of the discussion, not how the thread started.
There was nothing "knock-off" about the versions he reviewed. If you haven't read the review there to its conclusion, then I suggest you do so, and quote me evidence that suggests the cables he reviewed were 'knocked-off'.
My point was that if someone had run up a Chord or Nordost knock off and submitted a 'review' of this fake to AoS, their review would almost certainly not have been allowed to stand.
Yes it would, for precisely the reasons Martin has stated, and also because the cables Alan (Firebottle) has built are in the style of SSC, not *actual* SSC. That is the whole point, and why nothing is being 'ripped off'.
It's not the first time that someone has produced their own version of commercially produced cables, and it won't be the last either.
Marco.
Hi Pete,
In that case Marco, I'd better add my public support for the NVA cable solution in my current set-up... I certainly wouldn't want me, as a member of AoS, being tarred with the same brush as those who've given you their feedback, either publicly or privately. After all, irrespective of whether you like a particular individual or not, there are plenty of happy NVA users on AoS, many of who feel intimidated when posting their opinions on any of their product line...
Well, you shouldn't be, because you're more than welcome to do so, in the same way that anyone else here praises their favourite brands. The difference with Dave is that his connection with NVA (being sub-contracted to help assemble the cables, and paid for the privilege by the manufacturer) unfortunately places his views on the product in a different light to anyone else.
The 'dissed' comment of his said it all, and shows all too clearly that he's getting 'too close' to something that he clearly feels personally attached to, to the extent of taking umbrage at anyone who 'disses' it! It's all getting too personal for him. *That* is my point :)
In my opinion, only RD, as the manufacturer concerned, is entitled to feel that way. Everyone else should be able to distance themselves and simply take any criticism of the cables that they 'endorse' on the chin. For example, as a happy NVA cable user yourself, does it offend you that Mark dared to 'diss' a pair of SSCs? I trust you can see my point! ;)
I certainly couldn't give a monkeys toss if anyone 'dissed' my MC5000s!!
Marco.
Fortunately almost all hi-fi manufacturers accept that not everyone is going to rate their products highly without accusing them of being on some sort of crusade to destroy their business.
Indeed. The irony of this too, in terms of accusations elsewhere that we're trying to suppress discussion of NVA, wouldn't be lost on anyone who was party to the vote we took recently in the mod room (as all forum management do from time to time), and my active role in the outcome! ;)
Dealing with this kind of pish, however, makes me wonder if I should've allowed the vote to go the other way.... :doh:
Marco.
Indeed. The irony of this too, in terms of accusations elsewhere that we're trying to suppress discussion of NVA, wouldn't be lost on anyone who was party to the vote we took recently in the mod room, and my active role in the outcome! ;)
Dealing with this kind of pish, however, makes me wonder if I should've allowed the vote to go the other way.... :doh:
Marco.
Now, don't take this the wrong way, but it would probably help if you stuck to your own rule; i.e. limiting discussion to nva products, and not discussing RD at all. That might remove some of the heat from the exchanges.
Wishing id changed my vote too. I leave shaking my head
I've said this before, Joe, given the level of unwarranted personal abuse I have to put up with from there, I reserve the right to occasionally refer to them/it when I consider it serves a constructive purpose.
We don't have a daily bitch-fest in place here against anyone who's 'wronged' us, as they do 'over there', but now and then highlighting certain aspects of what is said serves to maintain a handle on reality.
There's a very valid reason why all discussion of NVA and its owner is banned on other forums. I won't let that happen here, as people should be allowed to freely discuss or sell the equipment that they use, but I will occasionally highlight certain unacceptable levels of hypocrisy, or plain factual inaccuracy, from 'over the road', when I consider it warranted.
Now, I insist that we return to discussing the subject of interconnects.
Marco.
I prefer my MC5000 cables.
My Elacaudio SC-221OCC are pretty good too, but not worth the extra outlay compare to the MC5000.
This is probably due to the lack of NVA product in my system, so the Synergy is not there.
I am tempted to try some starquad cable next.
orbscure
03-09-2015, 11:02
I prefer my MC5000 cables. My Elacaudio SC-221OCC are pretty good too, but not worth the extra outlay compare to the MC5000. This is probably due to the lack of NVA product in my system, so the Synergy is not there.
...and just to add some balance to your findings/synergy in your system Kevin (and also to allay any fears from interested parties that NVA cables only work well with NVA kit) I have a non NVA system with SSP MK 2 interconnects and they work beautifully ;)
I can only speak about the SSC, as I don't have any experience of any of the other NVA products, and nor will I ever have any for reasons best left alone.
Have you read Mark's review of the SSC on Audioflat, from beginning to END? Because that's what Dave is getting his knickers in a twist about, which prompted this part of the discussion, not how the thread started.
There was nothing "knock-off" about the versions he reviewed. If you haven't read the review there to its conclusion, then I suggest you do so, and quote me evidence that suggests the cables he reviewed were 'knocked-off'.
Yes it would, for precisely the reasons Martin has stated, and also because the cables Alan (Firebottle) has built are in the style of SSC, not *actual* SSC. That is the whole point, and why nothing is being 'ripped off'.
It's not the first time that someone has produced their own version of commercially produced cables, and it won't be the last either.
Marco.
Thank you Marco for clarifying that, I'm afraid I had missed recent posts (people do make some very strange assumptions). As you say, the two samples I tried were not 'knock-offs' but were genuine NVA SSC cables kindly loaned by two different individuals; neither showed any signs of being tampered with in any way and both owners swore that they had bought them direct from NVA (I saw no evidence to contradict that). I wouldn't normally have gone to the trouble of sourcing a second sample but I felt so negatively about the first that I thought it only fair to give it another chance.
...... I wouldn't normally have gone to the trouble of sourcing a second sample but I felt so negatively about the first that I thought it only fair to give it another chance.
which was very fair minded of you and, to your credit, to report your findings on listening to the second pair was quite honest in my opinion:
"First up was the first SSC cable and I was quickly reminded of the qualities I wrote about earlier - dry and tight, rather 'airless' in the upper registers and very little bass weight or depth, just leading note attack. The overall effect is up-tempo but a bit tiring. I changed over to the more recent SSC (the shorter one) and I'll be damned, much to my surprise*, it blooming does sound different - distinctly fuller and weightier in the bass and a bit less 'shut in' in the upper registers - very odd indeed! "
However, for the op to claim that they had made an ssc, when it seems that they had done nothing of the sort, and the use this bodge to call in to question the actual cable and manufacturer really doesn't do anyone any favours.
However, for the op to claim that they had made an ssc, when it seems that they had done nothing of the sort, and the use this bodge to call in to question the actual cable and manufacturer really doesn't do anyone any favours.
Go back and read Alan's posts on this thread. He does not call anything into question, He claims he has made an SSC copy from cable he has lying around then asks for advice on how to wire it. There is no 'review' of the cable.
Later in the thread Mark's review of the cable (from some time ago) was brought up and this now seems to have become intertwined with the original topic. Moral is - read the whole thread before commenting.
Go back and read Alan's posts on this thread. He does not call anything into question, He claims he has made an SSC copy from cable he has lying around then asks for advice on how to wire it. There is no 'review' of the cable.
please read my post again taking note of the paragraphing.
I did not state that Alan had "reviewed" the cable, he did call in to question the pricing of the cable and only later did he say that he had put it together from bits that he had already.
The first paragraph is a separate statement, I was attempting to respond to Marc's previous post.
moral is - next time I won't try to respond to two topics in the same post as some people are easily confused.
:offtopic:NVA make good cables and amps but I dont like their marketing tactics :lol:
Guys, we're drifting again... Remember what I said earlier about further replies having to be solely about interconnects [or anything of a hi-fi nature relevant to that]! ;)
So, let's drop the 'he said, she said' stuff, and the niggling, and get back on topic. Ta.
Marco.
orbscure
04-09-2015, 08:37
:offtopic:NVA make good cables and amps but I dont like their marketing tactics :lol:
Agree on the first point... but what is not to like about their cable/interconnect* marketing? You buy the cables/interconnects*, if you don't like, you return and get a full refund!!! I'm not aware of anybody else in the hi-fi industry doing this with cables/interconnects*...
(*and other equipment in their range too)
Agree on the first point... but what is not to like about their cable/interconnect* marketing? You buy the cables/interconnects*, if you don't like, you return and get a full refund!!! I'm not aware of anybody else in the hi-fi industry doing this with cables/interconnects*...
(*and other equipment in their range too)
Thanks for that information Pete, I was not aware of that offer. In fact I'd never even heard of NVA before joining this forum so it's been interesting hearing so much about them here.
Other manufacturers offer home trials, so I don't see anything special.
Thanks for that information Pete, I was not aware of that offer. In fact I'd never even heard of NVA before joining this forum so it's been interesting hearing so much about them here.
There you are - something positive usually always results in any company being discussed, whether it's simply the piquing of one's curiosity. As they say, there's no such a thing as bad publicity! ;)
That's one of the reasons why we'll not gag anyone here from discussing NVA or their products.
I think that the NVA offer to their potential customers, in that respect, is exceptional and that other manufacturers should follow suit :)
Marco.
Other manufacturers offer home trials, so I don't see anything special.
Not, IME, with many small manufacturers, in the way NVA do it (completely no-quibble). And some don't always honour their promises. The one thing you can never say about NVA is that their customers are ever left out of pocket.
Marco.
Take Graham Slee Audio for example.
A two week home loan from the dedicated loan scheme for you to make up your mind.
You don't have to buy the product upfront. What is not to like?
What is not to lime?
To lemon?
Take Graham Slee Audio for example.
A two week home loan from the dedicated loan scheme for you to make up your mind.
You don't have to buy the product upfront. What is not to lime?
Yes, in that respect, I'd put GS into a similar category. Not enough people, IMO, use their products, which are all hand-built and 100% British, and offer very high SPPV. I've used some of them myself in the past (Reflex phono stage and Elevator EXP head amp), and have a great deal of respect for their products :)
I kind of see Graham Slee as being the 'SS equivalent' of Glenn Croft.
Marco.
The only thing that NVA does different is the upgrade scheme.
I think that is quite unique. Get people hooked and reel them in for better/more expensive product.
orbscure
04-09-2015, 10:57
The only thing that NVA does different is the upgrade scheme. I think that is quite unique. Get people hooked and reel them in for better/more expensive product.
Unique, most certainly... but with regards the increase in cost from one product line to another, the same could be said for any manufacturers range of products. At the end of the day, nobody points a gun at you and forces you, me or anybody here to buy anything Kevin... ;)
I think that is quite unique. Get people hooked and reel them in for better/more expensive product.
Sounds like a good business model to me! I never begrudge any company or manufacturer from making money and/or becoming a success. At the end of the day, however, the products speak for themselves, which of course is exactly how it should be :)
Marco.
Unique, most certainly... but with regards the increase in cost from one product line to another, the same could be said for any manufacturers range of products. At the end of the day, nobody points a gun at you and forces you, me or anybody here to buy anything Kevin... ;)
Yep, but I understand that NVA offer a buyback at full price paid for a period of around 2 years. Gives you plenty of time to save up.
orbscure
04-09-2015, 13:44
Yep, but I understand that NVA offer a buyback at full price paid for a period of around 2 years. Gives you plenty of time to save up.
If that's what floats your boat Kevin, then of course you could... you could also attempt to save up for a pair of Nordost or Tellurium Q interconnects, but without the option to exchange... not that I have a need within the NVA range to look beyond the SSP MK2 I currently use, but its good to know I have the option if required ;)
walpurgis
04-09-2015, 14:32
To lemon?
Totally bananas! :D
Or sour grapes? :eyebrows:
Marco.
If that's what floats your boat Kevin, then of course you could... you could also attempt to save up for a pair of Nordost or Tellurium Q interconnects, but without the option to exchange... not that I have a need within the NVA range to look beyond the SSP MK2 I currently use, but its good to know I have the option if required ;)
It does not float my boat, but it's something people should be aware of.
Sour grapes?
It's way past that...
Positively festering.
It does not float my boat, but it's something people should be aware of.
Sour grapes?
It's way past that...
Positively festering.
It's a bunch of wires, FFS. Get a grip.
It's a bunch of wires, FFS. Get a grip.
Of what?
Of what?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIX_6EVf7pI
What merits those last responses?
The NVA scheme offers a unique opportunity for people wanting to upgrade over time, with no loss at trade in.
If you don't like it, I suggest you GGF.
(Well, if you can use FFS....)
Sour grapes?
It's way past that...
Positively festering.
Lol... Shall we say a very 'late-picked vintage'? ;)
Marco.
What merits those last responses?
The NVA scheme offers a unique opportunity for people wanting to upgrade over time, with no loss at trade in.
If you don't like it, I suggest you GGF.
(Well, if you can use FFS....)
You said you were 'festering', at least that's what I understood you to be saying. But I'm probably wrong and, if so, please disregard my posts, except for the Stranglers' song, because that's ace.
Agree on the first point... but what is not to like about their cable/interconnect* marketing? You buy the cables/interconnects*, if you don't like, you return and get a full refund!!! I'm not aware of anybody else in the hi-fi industry doing this with cables/interconnects*...
(*and other equipment in their range too)
no, not that part, ... the strategic part. Go figure ! They need / promote controversy in order to be perceived as different i.e. the small manufacturer / underdog vs the entire hifi univers.
no, not that part, ... the strategic part. Go figure ! They need / promote controversy in order to be perceived as different i.e. the small manufacturer / underdog vs the entire hifi univers.
There's a strategy now? I agree that being an underdog or iconoclastic or controversial are things that marketing men seize on like jewels, but NVA isn't Christian Dior ;)
:lol:
dont under estimate the underdog :eek: ... probably its just the nature of the Co. ?
Well I use their P90SA passive pre and the SSC interconnects and for the money I think they are outstanding. So I've no axe to grind there. I think that properly marketed it could be a bigger brand/larger business. But as is you can't really suggest there is any coherent marketing 'strategy' in a serious business sense?
FFS Macca, it's just my opinion.
Well I use their P90SA passive pre and the SSC interconnects and for the money I think they are outstanding. So I've no axe to grind there. I think that properly marketed it could be a bigger brand/larger business. But as is you can't really suggest there is any coherent marketing 'strategy' in a serious business sense?
It's called 'stealth marketing'. It's so low profile you don't even realise it's there, till one day you wake up to find you've ordered a pair of mono blocks, a BMU, some Cube speakers and enough nva cables to re-wire the street.
funny, I was looking at a documentary about the F22 and F35 stealth fighter jets and it seems that the stealth feature is a bunch of marketing hype in order to spend billions and billions of dollars for something that can be ultimately be detected by some radars... sorry for the drift it of course a different league all together
walpurgis
04-09-2015, 20:41
funny, I was looking at a documentary about the F22 and F35 stealth fighter jets and it seems that the stealth feature is a bunch of marketing hype in order to spend billions and billions of dollars for something that can be ultimately be detected by some radars... sorry for the drift it of course a different league all together
I heard they are still not meeting design briefs.
yes, unfortunately for the tax payers
I heard they are still not meeting design briefs.
A Lockheed spokesman said " this problem was not on our radar";)
I heard they are still not meeting design briefs.
...but have now moved to full-on French knickers.
Marco.
:lolsign::lolsign::yesbruv::yesbruv:
Sovereign
04-09-2015, 21:37
Finally the thread gets interesting, can we have some models in French knickers please :lol:
google "french knickers" then click "images" :eek:
walpurgis
04-09-2015, 21:55
'thing uth a thong'
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