View Full Version : Speaker grilles: on or off?
Clive197
20-08-2015, 10:12
Having just bought a pair of Spendor D7's in Cherry I was advised by my dealer to leave th grills off for a few months as Cherry veneer darkens over time and to ensure that this happens evenly. I already knew this from my previous two pairs of Cherry veneered speakers. Now after two months I'm wondering if I should replace the grills. My wife would prefer that I do as she thinks they would look nicer in our lounge. I'm split 50/50 on this as I like them either way.
The question I have for discussion is does it make any difference to SQ.
I guess it will depend on the finish. a good clear finish should stop darkening.
walpurgis
20-08-2015, 10:33
Leave the grilles on. Never mind the 'cosmetics'. Constant exposure to light ages speaker drive units. Dark cones become lighter, plastics become brittle, synthetic rubber hardens and cracks, adhesive fail. Least light the better in my view.
Leave the grilles on. Never mind the 'cosmetics'. Constant exposure to light ages speaker drive units. Dark cones become lighter, plastics become brittle, synthetic rubber hardens and cracks, adhesive fail. Least light the better in my view.
+1
Am not fussed by a bit of veneer lightening if the grilles are always on.
Clive197
20-08-2015, 11:01
I guess it will depend on the finish. a good clear finish should stop darkening.
I'm not sure I understand that answer. Lots of real wood and veneers darken with age i.e. Pine and many other soft woods incl. Cherry.
The question, is there a difference in audio quality with grills on or off.
Geoff's (walpurgis) point is very interesting as I've never heard or thought of light affecting drivers before.
StanleyB
20-08-2015, 11:02
It's just like using a condom. One provides safety. The other provides memorable satisfaction.
Gordon Steadman
20-08-2015, 11:11
If there is a sound difference, it's going to be a very small one. I reckon the advantages of leaving them on (dust, light, cats etc.) outweigh the slight sound difference - I wouldn't risk saying improvement!
I keep all the covers on the box speakers and the Quad grilles can look after themselves.
I'm not sure I understand that answer. Lots of real wood and veneers darken with age i.e. Pine and many other soft woods incl. Cherry.
The question, is there a difference in audio quality with grills on or off.
Geoff's (walpurgis) point is very interesting as I've never heard or thought of light affecting drivers before.
i meant that depending on what coating is on the veneer will depend if it darkens/ lightens due to oxidation/ atmosphere etc and uv.
Gentlemen,
Before we go any further, can we please use the proper word 'grilles'? It's: speaker grilles. 'Grills' are something that you barbecue your steaks on! I shall amend the thread title accordingly.
As you were... ;)
Marco.
We had this argument <ahem> I mean discussion a couple of years ago. IIRC I was one of the few saying keep the grilles off but I was shouted down by those with fixed grilles and those suffering from WAF.
Why not just take the grills off when listening and keep them on at other times?
Well, firstly, some speakers have been designed, or 'voiced' to be used with their grilles on. For example, most 'BBC designs', from the likes of Harbeth and Spendor, and also Naim speakers. There are plenty of others too, but those are the ones that popped into my head first.
Secondly, there are grilles, and there are grilles... Some (often belonging to the manufacturers listed above) are of high quality, and have been designed as an integral part of the design of the loudspeaker, rather than simply made as an 'afterthought' [as is the case with those belonging to many other manufacturers], and consequently sound worse used with their grilles off.
Properly designed speaker grilles, in my experience, also cause almost no degradation in SQ, but in actuality, help to 'disperse' the sound in the room more evenly, and can help in creating a more solid central image, rather than having the sound 'firing at your ears' directly, as is the case with naked drive units.
Remember that the brighter (seemingly more detailed) sound is not necessarily the most natural or accurate one! ;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
20-08-2015, 12:06
Gentlemen,
Before we go any further, can we please use the proper word 'grilles'? It's: speaker grilles. 'Grills' are something that you barbecue your steaks on! I shall amend the thread title accordingly.
As you were... ;)
Marco.
I did, I did, I ain't lisdexic nor nuffink!
Clive197
20-08-2015, 12:36
Gentlemen,
Before we go any further, can we please use the proper word 'grilles'? It's: speaker grilles. 'Grills' are something that you barbecue your steaks on! I shall amend the thread title accordingly.
As you were... ;)
Marco.
Marco, I must bring you to task on this.
According. To "The New Collins Concise English Dictionary" it is perfectly correct spelling speaker GRILLS. As a point to fairness however you can spell the word both ways, GRILLS OR GRILLES, both are correct.
I would also add that I would NEVER cook a steak or anything else on my GRILL as I would be afraid of the juices damaging my speaker drivers. LOL
awkwardbydesign
20-08-2015, 12:36
We had this argument <ahem> I mean discussion a couple of years ago. IIRC I was one of the few saying keep the grilles off but I was shouted down by those with fixed grilles and those suffering from WAF.
Why not just take the grills off when listening and keep them on at other times?
Is there a phone app for that? Too much hard work otherwise. :D
And unless the fixings are magnetic (for example), they can break if used too often.
Is there a phone app for that? .
Dunno, I can't be bothered with phone apps - too much hard work :)
American English may find 'grills' acceptable in this context, but I was brought up on UK Hifi magazines from the 60's onwards, and 'speaker grilles' it is for me.
Regarding speaker voicing. I thought Spendor BC1's were designed for use with grilles on, but apparently and according to tales on the Yahoo Spendor Group, all prototype listening was with grilles OFF, as it was with all the regular BBC monitors I believe. I suppose the grilles weren't supposed to make much difference back then, I don't know, but I remember a Colloms review on the little original SA1, which used the BC1 cloth for the grille, absolutely panned the degradation the grilles made, the difference being quite marked on these! The BC1 and 2 have the tweeter almost flush with the cloth (and now the foam 'cushioning' on mine has failed, the cloth really is all but touching the protruding HF1300 fronts).
Re veneers:- Cherry darkens VERY quickly which is why so many 'cherry' speakers had extra dark orange staining applied to try to mask this, or tone it down somewhat. Fresh natural cherry is a fabulous honey-golden-yellow as I remember.
Current Spendors, even the 'Classic series' I believe, has more modern voicing, grille cloths are more acoustically transparent these days and I think it's more to do with personal taste in all honesty, unless the grille fret/frame is so badly designed it muddles dispersion up.
P.S. Harbeth recommend swapping the speakers left to right twice yearly if one is near a window, to allow the veneers to change equally and naturally.
Marco, I must bring you to task on this.
According. To "The New Collins Concise English Dictionary" it is perfectly correct spelling speaker GRILLS. As a point to fairness however you can spell the word both ways, GRILLS OR GRILLES, both are correct.
I would also add that I would NEVER cook a steak or anything else on my GRILL as I would be afraid of the juices damaging my speaker drivers. LOL
Lol! As far as I'm concerned "The New Collins Concise English Dictionary" can go and take a fook to itself, the superficial whippersnapper that is is, replete with its vulgar Americanisms... My trusty reference is "The Old Fuddy-Duddy Oxford Non-Concise English Dictionary", wot I woz brung up wiv, and speaker grilles there were always referred to as GRILLES! :ner:
Besides, what happens if you're a vegetarian? :scratch:
Marco.
Regarding speaker voicing. I thought Spendor BC1's were designed for use with grilles on, but apparently and according to tales on the Yahoo Spendor Group, all prototype listening was with grilles OFF, as it was with all the regular BBC monitors I believe. I suppose the grilles weren't supposed to make much difference back then, I don't know, but I remember a Colloms review on the little original SA1, which used the BC1 cloth for the grille, absolutely panned the degradation the grilles made, the difference being quite marked on these! The BC1 and 2 have the tweeter almost flush with the cloth (and now the foam 'cushioning' on mine has failed, the cloth really is all but touching the protruding HF1300 fronts).
Current Spendors, even the 'Classic series' I believe, has more modern voicing, grille cloths are more acoustically transparent these days and I think it's more to do with personal taste in all honesty, unless the grille fret/frame is so badly designed it muddles dispersion up.
Fair enough, Dave, but any Harbeth or Spendor 'Classic' (BBC-heritage) speakers I've owned have always sounded much better with their grilles on. Perhaps it's as much to do with the partnering equipment as anything else?
I do think it's a fallacy, however, to say that all grilles = bad. As ever, context is everything!
Marco.
Indeed, grilles can also be applied in a way to impact the frequency response, meaning it doesn't need to be done in the crossovers. Other speakers don't even come with grilles, and the worst, added "just because" and sounding better taken off.
Okay answer this one then.
If grille cloths are 'acoustically transparent' why is it always recommended to put a bit of tissue paper over the tweeter on Yam NS10s to 'tone it down' a bit?
Grille cloth is transparent but tissue paper isn't? I'm not buying it.
Not all grille cloths are 'acoustically transparent', that's why, and none I know are made of tissue paper....
Also, I'd never do what you're suggesting with the Yammies, as that's simply applying a bandage to the problem, rather than fixing it at source properly, which is what I would do instead :)
Marco.
Okay answer this one then.
If grille cloths are 'acoustically transparent' why is it always recommended to put a bit of tissue paper over the tweeter on Yam NS10s to 'tone it down' a bit?
Grille cloth is transparent but tissue paper isn't? I'm not buying it.
Most thin speaker grille cloths are totally acoustically transparent and I can prove that easily with a mic to measure the upper registers. The rudimentary test is that if you hold up a thin piece of cloth and can blow through it easily, chances are it'll not degrade the sound or roll off the treble. Some tissue papers are not wholly transparent and can cause some reflection or damping effect, but how audible I don't know as I've never tried it.
As far as most speakers are concerned, few are really designed and measured with grilles on. The grilles serve a purpose of preventing dust build up on drivers which may not be desirable especially if there's any small open path to the voice coil. The obvious exception is Harbeth. They are designed sans grilles (the SHL5 and 5 plus spring to mind) because the frame edges and tweeter location results in a degree of edge diffraction which can raise distortion and give an edgy sound to the upper registers. The grilles are close, if not touching the cloth and the cloth acts to absorb or disrupt sound waves travelling sideways to the frame edges, where the cloth will not be as transparent (ie perpendicular to the weave) whilst direct radiated sound remains unaffected.
StanleyB
20-08-2015, 16:52
The NS1000M is a good example of a speaker that has been over-grilled so to speak. Without the cloth grill it sounds a lot better.
walpurgis
20-08-2015, 16:54
Most thin speaker grille cloths are totally acoustically transparent.
How can anything in front of a speaker be totally transparent acoustically? Grille cloth is an obstruction, the weave of which the emitted sound signal has to negotiate, no matter how minor in effect surely? My thinking is that the effects of some grille cloths may possibly be minimal, but they are there nonetheless.
walpurgis
20-08-2015, 16:55
Anyway. I'm going to GRILLE sausages for tea! :D
StanleyB
20-08-2015, 17:02
Anyway. I'm going to GRILLE sausages for tea! :D
Isn't tea a leaf based drink? Never knew you could make it from meat as well.
PaulStewart
20-08-2015, 17:03
The practice of tissuing the tweters on NS10s was when used as nearfields in studios, when doing AM radio mixes, with the tissue in place, one pushed the RF slightly, which helped the radio mix. People who did not understand thought you had to do this all the time :lol: I always preferred Auratones for that, my holy trinity in the studio was always Tannoy, LS3/5a and "Horror tones".
awkwardbydesign
20-08-2015, 17:32
Dunno, I can't be bothered with phone apps - too much hard work :)
Actually I'm with you on that one. I guess I'm a phonophobe.
Me too - as far as I'm concerned, a phone's for making phone calls!
Are these modern things, posing as 'mobile phones', still capable of adequately fulfilling what should still be their core function?
Marco.
Me too - as far as I'm concerned, a phone's for making phone calls!
Are these modern things, posing as 'mobile phones' still capable of adequately fulfilling what should still be their core function?
Marco.
If needed they can, but better for selfies;)
Me too - as far as I'm concerned, a phone's for making phone calls!
Are these modern things, posing as 'mobile phones', still capable of adequately fulfilling what should still be their core function?
Marco.
Just about. Mine also is an alarm clock a camera, a sat nav and a torch and the internet I don't know what else it does that's all I need but still quite handy. Not sure I'd go back to an old style one.
Gordon Steadman
20-08-2015, 18:33
I wonder if I'm the only one here who doesn't have a mobile phone of any description!!
We have a landline with an answering service. If people want to speak to us, we will call back. Terribly last century no doubt but I hate the idea of always being available - on the phone that is:eyebrows:
And yes, I know they can be switched off.
How can anything in front of a speaker be totally transparent acoustically? Grille cloth is an obstruction, the weave of which the emitted sound signal has to negotiate, no matter how minor in effect surely? My thinking is that the effects of some grille cloths may possibly be minimal, but they are there nonetheless.
That would be my thinking too. I've never owned any speakers that were better with the grilles on. Not to say they don't exisit.
Luckily, short of butchering them, I don't have any option with the (non-removable) grilles on the Lockies! Oh, and the grilles didn't appear to be 'holding things back' too much last time you heard them.... ;)
Marco.
Just about. Mine also is an alarm clock a camera, a sat nav and a torch and the internet I don't know what else it does that's all I need but still quite handy. Not sure I'd go back to an old style one.
My experience is, that the more apps and 'superfluous facilities' a mobile phone has, the more demands placed on its operating system, and consequently the worse it performs as a phone. Older mobile phones tend to hold their charge longer, pick up signals better, have superior sound quality [in terms of voices heard and received], and simply perform better overall as phones.
In reality, 'smart phones', these days, are nothing of the sort; they are small (incredibly powerful) personal computers, with cameras fitted. Their function as a phone is but an afterthought. If I want a camera, I've got a separate digital one. If I want a computer, I've got my laptop, and when I'm out and about, I don't feel the need to be permanently 'connected'.
You can see where I'm going with this.... ;)
Marco.
Luckily, short of butchering them, I don't have any option with the (non-removable) grilles on the Lockies! Oh, and the grilles didn't appear to be 'holding things back' too much last time you heard them.... ;)
Marco.
No we can't compare though can we = you will just never know :)
I think without grilles the soundstage opens out a bit more. But it is subtle. And may only be noticeable if sitting a good distance away. Lots of people listen near field so in that situation it might be better with grilles on, just damp it down a bit.
How can anything in front of a speaker be totally transparent acoustically? Grille cloth is an obstruction, the weave of which the emitted sound signal has to negotiate, no matter how minor in effect surely? My thinking is that the effects of some grille cloths may possibly be minimal, but they are there nonetheless.
I can assure you Geoff with total confidence that there is less than 0.5dB difference (inaudible) at any HF between say 6kHz and 20KHz with the cloth that I use, fact. Happy to do some tests and post them on this thread if I get time. What is misunderstood I think Geoff or at least never considered, is a lot of the time the difference between grilles on or off is more to do with the diffraction caused by some grille frames when left in place. This generally results in more disruption to directivity hence sound at the listening position and stereo imaging than caused by the grille material.
No we can't compare though can we = you will just never know :)
Lol - I like how they look with their grilles on [retro and original], and that matters to me more than any sub-minuscule loss of fidelity! ;)
Also, Ian Walker and I have listened to his Canterburys, with and without grilles many times, and neither of us can hear any difference, which is understandable, as the grilles have been properly designed to have a negligible effect.
Marco.
Pauls point about it being the frames rather than the fabric is pretty sound I think. No frame no problem.
There are frames on the grilles of Canterburys... None on my Lockies, though.
Marco.
Yes I was thinking that. But when I heard the Canterburys the grilles were off.
Trust me, if you'd heard them with their grilles on, your opinion of them would remain unaltered.
Marco.
Interesting thread.
Where does that leave the Gale speakers from years ago. those had steel grilles if I remember correctly.
I play a bit of guitar and I know of a thing called 'killer cone' problem. This is where if someone is right in line with the cone, then the sound is pretty awful and piercing. There are gadgets (beam blockers) on the market that defuse this by covering the centre of the cone itself. I've sometimes used an old CD and taped it to the front of the speaker grill. My old VOX AC30 has a wooden slat across the centre of the speaker cab. If miking up I have found it best to put my SM57 right up to this slat...straight on. The amp sounded very good through the PA.
I'm no Hifi expert, but would this also apply to speaker cones with the grilles off.
http://www.tedweber.com/gadgets/beam-blockers
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/beam-blockers-yea-or-nay.137957/
Interesting thread.
Where does that leave the Gale speakers from years ago. those had steel grilles if I remember correctly.
I play a bit of guitar and I know of a thing called 'killer cone' problem. This is where if someone is right in line with the cone, then the sound is pretty awful and piercing. There are gadgets (beam blockers) on the market that defuse this by covering the centre of the cone itself. I've sometimes used an old CD and taped it to the front of the speaker grill. My old VOX AC30 has a wooden slat across the centre of the speaker cab. If miking up I have found it best to put my SM57 right up to this slat...straight on. The amp sounded very good through the PA.
I'm no Hifi expert, but would this also apply to speaker cones with the grilles off.
http://www.tedweber.com/gadgets/beam-blockers
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/beam-blockers-yea-or-nay.137957/
Beaming only takes place when the driver is run to a frequency where the wavelength reduces below the driver cone diameter. If it sounds harsh it's because it's being run higher than the driver can smoothly reproduce sound, usually well into cone break up area so what you're hearing is a lot of objectionable distortion. Metal grilles are more for driver protection on things like PA speakers which get bashed about a fair bit but some use them for extra dispersion of sound when deliberately running drivers high (which doesn't really work well!) plus to modify the driver's impedance profile (Linn do this with some of their designs for example). Hifi speakers are different to guitar speakers and PA speakers in that each driver is designed (if the speaker's designed properly) to operate within its optimum envelope for both smooth on and off axis response, and the driver rolled off by the crossover before it starts to beam or runs into cone break up, so hifi speakers generally are not made like pro-speakers which have different considerations (like making lots of noise!). Some are designed to operate like this without a crossover by virtue of rigid very well damped cone design (verity Audio for example have loudspeakers with such designs).
Got a set of Canton German speakers that have metal grilles. for their size the are rather good...some sort of resin case i think too.
Blueflash
27-08-2015, 10:10
Have you contacted the manufacturers.
I have the ATC50A`s Classics which are set up with the grilles on, but the 50A Pro models do not have grilles.
I did ask ATC about it and they said that the grille has a radiused surround to cut out the diffraction.
Have you contacted the manufacturers.
I have the ATC50A`s Classics which are set up with the grilles on, but the 50A Pro models do not have grilles.
I did ask ATC about it and they said that the grille has a radiused surround to cut out the diffraction.
It can't cut out diffraction even with a simple radius, so that's a bit naughty of them to say so imho. It may help a little but trust me, it'll cause diffraction. Whether it will significantly audibly affect the sound, well that's quite another matter. The only way to prevent diffraction when using grilles which have raised frames (as most do) is to surround the area over the outside edges of the drivers with an appropriate thickness of proper acoustic wool felt or similar, or simply not to use the grilles.
It's all a moot point because MOST loudspeakers have little or no nod towards diffraction control on the baffle design anyway, or at least that was the case until the advent of mass production with CNC shaped or vacuum moulded baffles which can be shaped to lessen diffraction effects. You tend to see more historical designs (some B&W, Wharfedale etc) from the 1960's and 1970's using offset tweeters and mid units, whereas today, the proliferation of slender column speakers means that still, there are many manufacturers who don't bother giving this consideration.
It's all a mute point...
Sorry to butt in, Paul, and be pedantic, but did you mean 'moot', rather than mute? The error does rather spoil the veracity of your post ;)
Marco.
choirboy
27-08-2015, 13:36
I listen to my Sonus Faber's with the grills off. For the me the sound is a little more involving and immediate and slightly veiled with them on.
I take them off every listening session and put them back on when not in use which is easy to do.
They look far sexier with robes off so to speak :flasher::eyebrows:
Sorry to butt in, Paul, and be pedantic, but did you mean 'moot', rather than mute? The error does rather spoil the veracity of your post ;)
Marco.
Yes, well spotted Marco. There's some sort of pun in there left as "mute point" but I'll change it;)
Ha - yes, I see where you're coming from! :eyebrows:
Marco.
From carefully experimenting and trying all manner of variations and permutations over many years I have reached the final and inescapable conclusion that the best position for speaker grilles is precisely wherever the hell you want them.
http://www.publimetro.com.mx/entretenimiento/fotos-asi-lucen-ahora-los-protagonistas-de-karate-kid/XeSoda!wG7WJrjA6GIvrqtEz1W_9w/tumblr_lp6pi0ZwjJ1qde6e2o1_500.gif
...Grilles on, Grilles off. I agree, whatever make sense to one's ears and eyes..or sometimes the eyes of your spouse:kiss:
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