Low volume listening

[Kung fu dog]

Hello , I m new hear so sorry to be asking questions already. I currently have a set of old mission 761 speakers that I m looking to upgrade. They are fed from a rotel RA-810a amp. I m looking to upgrade the speakers but I m interested to find something that's works well at low volume as noise travel in our house is a bit of a issue. I have a young child and a wife who goes to bed early so most of my listening is done when others are a sleep. I can only fit book shelf speakers in . I m more than happy to go second hand and my budget is up to £250 ish. Can anyone recommend anything that's holds its quality when the volume is normal and when it's dropped?

[walpurgis]

The Usher S520 May fit the bill. Your RA-810 will drive these OK and should sound good with them. The Ushers are beautifully made and have had many decent reviews. You should find a mint used pair for maybe just under £200.

http://i60.tinypic.com/ok0a5l.jpg

[dougmon]

I know it's not what you asked for, but have you thought of headphones? Listening at low volumes through headphones can be very rewarding. And 250 GPB can get a really good pair of headphones.

My apologies if this is crap advice for you -- it was really my only option for many years, and I came to like it quite a bit.

[dantheman91]

Monitor Audio RS1 silvers

Great Quality , Excellent reviews making a name for them self's :) Can be bought for £100 - £180 depending on condition , Specs.

[Ninanina]

I have always had the thought, rightly or wrongly, that a very sensitive speaker, that is easy to drive, does generally sound better than less sensitive speakers at low listening volumes, and that has certainly been my experience

I also have a problem with noise travel in my house, and I have lovely neighbours that I definitely don't want to upset... I use sensitive speakers; Tannoy's and the Klipsch and they both still sound excellent at lower volumes

So I guess any good speaker, that is also pretty sensitive, would be good for your needs John

If I am wrong in my thoughts I am sure someone will correct me... ;)

[guy]

I take it from your post that you are set on replacing your speakers. However, I am not convinced that doing this will address your needs.

I have found that moving from Naim to NVA amplification resulted in my not needing to listen at higher volume to satisfy my needs! You also don't mention your source/s. I think that detail retrieval/preservation earlier in the reproduction chain may well give you what you need. Or, as suggested earlier, go for headphones.

best wishes. Guy.

[Kung fu dog]

Thanks so far. Headphones would be a solution but there's a strange design quirk with the rotel amp. Where if you plug headphones into the headphone socket it doesn't kill the volume to the speakers. Thought it may have been a fault with my amp but after a bit of research i discovered they all do it ( well that model anyway ) .
The usher looks interesting although I can't find any for sale yet . I ll have a read up on the monitor audios.
Don't want to sound like a numpty but what make a sensitive speaker?

[Ninanina]

.....Don't want to sound like a numpty but what make a sensitive speaker?

Hi John I believe any speaker that has a sensitivity of greater than about 90dB is deemed to be pretty sensitive, which means it is easier to drive with less watts from the amplifier

The Tannoy's I have are rated at about 92dB and my Klipsch are about 97dB, which means you need very little watts to drive them properly. I also think, due to their sensitivity, they sound good at low volumes as well.... Just my thoughts, of course.. ;)

[StanleyB]

If I was facing this problem, I would like to look at the problem from a different angle first of all, before deciding on which speakers to change to. You mentioned that noise travel in your house is a bit of an issue.
The first thing to identify is in which rooms the sound from the speakers should not be heard when you are listening to the music at a level with acceptable music enjoyment.
The next thing is then to identify the frequency range that is breaking through and causing an issue. in my own house it happens to be the bass. I put the speakers on stands and that sorted the problem out.
Once you have those bits of information it becomes a lot easier to tackle the problem. Stands for bass problems, keep the doors closed, and move the speakers away from the wall if they are flat against the wall at the moment. Also consider moving the speakers around the room, if that is possible, and then checking in the critical rooms in the house if the sound breakthrough is better or worse.
If none of that works, then use the information that you have gathered from the above to look for a pear of speakers that can provide a solution in the areas that you identified as critical.

SPOILER ALERT:
You can use a graphic or parametric equalizer to sort out the problem in most instances. But many would rather sell the Missions than fit an equalizer in their system. Those things are deemed more evil than a politician.

[Ninanina]

The next thing is then to identify the frequency range that is breaking through and causing an issue. in my own house it happens to be the bass. I put the speakers on stands and that sorted the problem out

I agree Stan, I think bass is normally the problem, it is in my house

I believe bass carries through the walls more than other frequencies. Neither of my speakers are particularly bass heavy so ideal in my house and certainly moving them away from the back wall helps as well

I do have a sub which is not often used unless I know the neighbours are out !!! ;)

[twickers]

The Missions are quite a high sensitivity at 89 db, so I'd be more inclined to have a look at Stan's suggestions rather than change the speakers.( If you are happy with them).

[Spectral Morn]

I have always had the thought, rightly or wrongly, that a very sensitive speaker, that is easy to drive, does generally sound better than less sensitive speakers at low listening volumes, and that has certainly been my experience

I also have a problem with noise travel in my house, and I have lovely neighbours that I definitely don't want to upset... I use sensitive speakers; Tannoy's and the Klipsch and they both still sound excellent at lower volumes

So I guess any good speaker, that is also pretty sensitive, would be good for your needs John

If I am wrong in my thoughts I am sure someone will correct me... ;)

+ 1 spot on.

The 810a is a 20 watt amp and needs efficient speakers to mate well for low level quality listening.

Something to the warm side of neutral would work best as Rotel amps of this vintage are a tad thin and forward sounding.

I am not sure what's suitable re modern speakers :scratch:


Regards Neil

[Pieoftheday]

Thanks so far. Headphones would be a solution but there's a strange design quirk with the rotel amp. Where if you plug headphones into the headphone socket it doesn't kill the volume to the speakers. Thought it may have been a fault with my amp but after a bit of research i discovered they all do it ( well that model anyway ) .
The usher looks interesting although I can't find any for sale yet . I ll have a read up on the monitor audios.
Don't want to sound like a numpty but what make a sensitive speaker?
You could add a headphone amp? Thought I'm not sure how much you'd have to spend for something decent, there's lots of them on eBay SMSL etc for around £50, maybe someone on here has tried one, jim

[Macca]

Some KEF Coda III - Like these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEF-Coda-III-Speakers-pair-/261998246482?hash=item3d004ffa52 - good match for a budget jap amp like the Rotel as they are quite rich and smooth, no deep bass but that's good as you don't want it. I'd much prefer these to those Missions which I've never liked. The KEFs are much more sonorous and pleasing to listen to. A pair in excellent condition should be no more than £50

[Reffc]

All speakers will drop off at the frequency extremes at low volumes, but some just seem to die a death dynamically as well, more especially very hard to drive speakers as their lower registers typically need loads of watts which only wake them up with volume (some ATCs for example only ever sound more balanced when playing loud). There's the Fletcher-Munson effect to consider as your hearing sensitivity at low and high frequencies drops off when volumes drop, so if the Rotel has bass/treble controls or a loudness button, this can compensate (it's what loudness buttons were invented for). The other consideration is not so much whether a speaker is sensitive or not, that's a bit of a myth. It's at what SPL the speaker was voiced to give a flattish response as frequency response can, and does, vary with volume in terms of perception. Tannoy for example only need a few watts usually to sound balanced, and being sensitive too, a watt or two allows some enjoyment. My Raptors may only be 86 or 87dB/1w/1m but they also sound balanced at lower volumes as I have voiced them for a flattish response at 75 to 80dB with compensation in the circuit to balance out lower registers so you dont have to listen to them at deafening levels. Not all speakers behave this way. Ones that do include Tannoy, Harbeth, RFC speakers (notably the Rhapsody) and a lot of truncated horn speakers like Impulse and Klipsch as well as larger more efficient designs like JBL (it doesn't take much wattage to get their woofers flapping nicely and they do tend to be voiced to be a little bass heavy which works well at lower volumes).

I'd perhaps look at some Class A amp designs too as these can better suit lower volume listening and perhaps aim for something a little more beefy than your current Rotel (as Neil has alluded too above). That or headphones and a headphone amp, neither of which are expensive on the used market.

Most bookshelf designs will struggle tbh, you need to think a little larger or consider amplification which has that all important loudness button! If noise carries in your house, you could try a little room treatment and closed doors. It may tip the balance in your favour.

[Clive197]

I would tend to agree with Macca's suggestion of the Kef Coda. I wouldn't like to see the Monitor Audio speakers in your system as they tend to favour the top & bottom ends with a slightly recessed mid which would not bode well at low volumes. RFC's point about sensitivity is correct as I have always understood things.

The headphone issue with your Rotel as I recall was actually a design feature. The headphone socket was designed to be used with the speakers disconnected. The idea being that there would be no switches in the circuit, which at the time was considered to be a pretty good idea. The idea was flawed because people on occasion blew up their amps. You should never have an amp turned on open circuit. So as long as either the speakers or headphones are plugged in on switch-on, no problem. Amps today tend to be more stable than days of yore.

[walpurgis]

Some KEF Coda III

The thing with these Martin, is that they won't be any better than John's existing Mission 761 speakers, if as good.

[Macca]

Personally, having fairly extensive experience of both models (and both with Rotel amps too), I preferred the KEFs in every respect. They are two completely differently voiced designs so opinions are going to vary, I suppose. But: I know the KEFs are enjoyable at low-levels. I've never heard the Ushers you are suggesting so I've no idea how much of a step up they would be or whether it would be worth it in cost to the O/P given he is not going to get the full benefit of any loudspeaker if he can't listen at optimum SPL.

[Kung fu dog]

Lots of interesting points , thank you. I m keen to look to upgrade the whole system over time so if an amp change would benefit more than speakers that's an option . Infact I do have a slight concern that the amp maybe on its way out anyway as is gives an audible pop from the speakers when I turn off. The sources for my system vary from an arcam CD player,ps3 digi box and gramofon streaming box. The important thing I suppose is to try and get synergy between the amp and speakers. If that means replacing both then so be it.
A few people have mentioned room treatments but unfortunately that's not really a option as the noise goes up through the floor boards to the bed room above not through walls. Use to be far worse with my old floor standers but they were very bass heavy.
With the current set up you hear a drop in quality when you go below the first quarter on the volume dial. Just seems to lose the life out of the music.

[Conan]

I have the Usher S520 and although I have had many speakers in the past I ended up returning to these because for me they excel at low volumes. They can give me real bass even at low volume. They do need an amp with a bit of torque. I use a Nait 2 and a modified Nad 3020i. both have enough grunt for the ushers.

[Conan]

A second hand Nad is always a good choice. Plenty of them on ebay for less than £100

[StanleyB]

A second hand Nad is always a good choice. Plenty of them on ebay for less than £100
Swap his Mission speakers for a NAD amp? How would that help?

[Conan]

Swap his Mission speakers for a NAD amp? How would that help?

Read post 19

[fatmarley]

Best I've had for low volume listening were Tannoy system 10 DMT. Ones that I've been told are good at low volumes are Audio note AX2 and PMC DB1.

[Arkless Electronics]

All speakers will drop off at the frequency extremes at low volumes, but some just seem to die a death dynamically as well, more especially very hard to drive speakers as their lower registers typically need loads of watts which only wake them up with volume (some ATCs for example only ever sound more balanced when playing loud). There's the Fletcher-Munson effect to consider as your hearing sensitivity at low and high frequencies drops off when volumes drop, so if the Rotel has bass/treble controls or a loudness button, this can compensate (it's what loudness buttons were invented for). The other consideration is not so much whether a speaker is sensitive or not, that's a bit of a myth. It's at what SPL the speaker was voiced to give a flattish response as frequency response can, and does, vary with volume in terms of perception. Tannoy for example only need a few watts usually to sound balanced, and being sensitive too, a watt or two allows some enjoyment. My Raptors may only be 86 or 87dB/1w/1m but they also sound balanced at lower volumes as I have voiced them for a flattish response at 75 to 80dB with compensation in the circuit to balance out lower registers so you dont have to listen to them at deafening levels. Not all speakers behave this way. Ones that do include Tannoy, Harbeth, RFC speakers (notably the Rhapsody) and a lot of truncated horn speakers like Impulse and Klipsch as well as larger more efficient designs like JBL (it doesn't take much wattage to get their woofers flapping nicely and they do tend to be voiced to be a little bass heavy which works well at lower volumes).

I'd perhaps look at some Class A amp designs too as these can better suit lower volume listening and perhaps aim for something a little more beefy than your current Rotel (as Neil has alluded too above). That or headphones and a headphone amp, neither of which are expensive on the used market.

Most bookshelf designs will struggle tbh, you need to think a little larger or consider amplification which has that all important loudness button! If noise carries in your house, you could try a little room treatment and closed doors. It may tip the balance in your favour.

+1 to all that other than amp power. If listening at low volumes you will only be using less than a Watt anyway!

[Ninanina]

+ 1 spot on.

Regards Neil

I am just happy I wasn't talking complete garbage Neil :D