View Full Version : Tonearm/cartridge compliance
MarginWalker
03-08-2015, 20:28
Could someone explain the science behind this? I am tempted by an Acutex cartridge but have read on a few forums that it might not be the best match for the TP16 on my Thorens TD160. If anyone could confirm of this is the case it would be much appreciated.
Ta
Phil
Could someone explain the science behind this? I am tempted by an Acutex cartridge but have read on a few forums that it might not be the best match for the TP16 on my Thorens TD160. If anyone could confirm of this is the case it would be much appreciated.
Ta
Phil
Ortofon put it like this:-
To maintain a cartridge/tonearm system resonance frequency within the acceptable range of 7 to 12 Hz, whereas 10 Hz recommended, it is necessary to choose a cartridge with the mass and compliance matching the tonearm
A result either side if the recommended range will degrade performance to a lesser or greater extent.
Can you tell us which Acutex cart you are looking at?
As long as its specs are published, there are several on line calculators where you plug in the weight of your arm and cartridge specs and it will tell you what the expected resonant frequency will be...
Phil, did you ever see Fugazi?
I saw them a few times years ago. Always ace live; tight as hell and you could guarantee Ian would stress out at least once per show!
One time he threatened to end the show early because someone spat at him. They then played for about 2.5 hours straight. Another time he was calling a load of guys primitive a-holes for fighting in the pit :)
MarginWalker
04-08-2015, 06:42
I only saw them on their tour in 1999, towards the end but they were still amazing. As you say, they were an incredibly tight unit but still with an element of chaos and unpredictability. I went to see the with a uni friend whose answer to almost any question about a band was 'why wouldn't you just listen to Fugazi instead'.
The Acutex I am looking at is the 412 STR - any ideas on whether that would be a decent match for the Thorens? Some of the reviews are amazing and the price is certainly right!
The Acutex I am looking at is the 412 STR - any ideas on whether that would be a decent match for the Thorens? Some of the reviews are amazing and the price is certainly right!
The TP16 I believe has an effective mass of 16.5g.
Combined with the 4g weight of the cart plus hardware, let's say 23g.
The cart has a ridiculous compliance of 36 x 10-6 cm./dyne at 100 Hz (Approx. 49 @ 10Hz)
This results in a resonant frequency of 4.74Hz :(
-
I would try and find a cart with lower compliance for that arm.
MarginWalker
04-08-2015, 08:31
Thanks Adam. See, this is why I need this sort of stuff explaining. I have got a formula for working out cartridge/arm matching from the analog dept. but how do I know the weight of the fixings and how do I figure out the compliance from (for example) the nagaoka mp11 - 6 x 10-6 cm/dyne? I'd like to be able to work this out myself rather than having to rely on someone to tell me if a particular cartridge would or wouldn't work with my arm.
Thanks for the help,
Phil
Ali Tait
04-08-2015, 08:39
Lots of good info here-
http://www.vinylengine.com/tools.shtml
Ali Tait
04-08-2015, 08:42
And here-
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable-database.php
Firebottle
04-08-2015, 08:47
Aniki/Phil I have to correct you with the figures. I have a 412STR and the compliance is 24 x 10-6, not 36 which is the figure for the 415STR.
I have mine in a very low mass arm and the resonance works out at about 9Hz.
:)
PLEASE don't worry too much... Top-model ADC and Empire cartridges in the early 70's were so highly compliant that you'd have needed a NEGATIVE mass arm to work them properly!
I and many others back then, used a 30cu Shure V15 III in original and much improved 'HE' form in a TP16 with no problems as long as the deck was firmly sited. The Acutex should be the same. If you sit the deck on a surface sensitive to foot-fall, the whole thing will be unstable (roll on Rega decks with no suspension), BUT, sit the TD160 on a light but rigid support, then I think the suspension and cartridge will be quite happy. You'll need to experiment with bias settings though.
MarginWalker
04-08-2015, 10:47
I'm a little confused. So does compliance matter or not? Can anyone klet me know how to work out the 10HZ compliance (that seems to be required for the calculation) from the 100hz compliance (that seems to be given as standard in cartridge specs)?
MarginWalker
04-08-2015, 10:56
It is also probably worth mentioning that oi do have some problems with footfall with the OM10e i have on the arm currently. SHould i be looking for something with lower comliance to remedy this?
Sorry if i am asking very obvious questions but i want to get the science of it all straight in my head before i stump up for a new cart.
Aniki/Phil I have to correct you with the figures. I have a 412STR and the compliance is 24 x 10-6, not 36 which is the figure for the 415STR
No worries. I took the figures from here:-
http://www.adelcom.net/AcutexCart1.htm
which lists them both at 36....
Could someone explain the science behind this? I am tempted by an Acutex cartridge but have read on a few forums that it might not be the best match for the TP16 on my Thorens TD160. If anyone could confirm of this is the case it would be much appreciated.
Ta
Phil
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?22373-Arm-cartridge-resonance
I'm a little confused. So does compliance matter or not? Can anyone klet me know how to work out the 10HZ compliance (that seems to be required for the calculation) from the 100hz compliance (that seems to be given as standard in cartridge specs)?
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?22373-Arm-cartridge-resonance
MarginWalker
05-08-2015, 06:44
Thanks for this. By my workings I think I (ideally) need something with a compliance ce of around 10 so will try to find something in that area. Thanks for the help all.
MarginWalker
05-08-2015, 06:50
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?22373-Arm-cartridge-resonance
Thanks, Barry. Very useful, although it made my brain hurt a bit.
I'm a little confused. So does compliance matter or not? Can anyone klet me know how to work out the 10HZ compliance (that seems to be required for the calculation) from the 100hz compliance (that seems to be given as standard in cartridge specs)?
I'm not going to bother any more :(
I've USED the TP16 arm. The bearing friction isn't high, but adds a tiny bit of friction-based damping, so the assembly isn't as unstable as you'd think. getting a 10hz ideal resonant frequency is academic, as many cartridges have different internal damping - one reason why the DL110 gets recommended so often is because it's stable in so many tonearms.
The Acutex isn't overly expensive I think, so buy it and see what happens!!!!!!! If you're really worried, get an AT95E and an after-market HE stylus, which livens it up a bit... Lets face it, a Linn K9 was a tarted up AT95E body with a 'Vital' elliptical diamond tip fitted...
MarginWalker
06-08-2015, 12:58
I'm not going to bother any more :(
I've USED the TP16 arm. The bearing friction isn't high, but adds a tiny bit of friction-based damping, so the assembly isn't as unstable as you'd think. getting a 10hz ideal resonant frequency is academic, as many cartridges have different internal damping - one reason why the DL110 gets recommended so often is because it's stable in so many tonearms.
The Acutex isn't overly expensive I think, so buy it and see what happens!!!!!!! If you're really worried, get an AT95E and an after-market HE stylus, which livens it up a bit... Lets face it, a Linn K9 was a tarted up AT95E body with a 'Vital' elliptical diamond tip fitted...
Sorry, Dave - I wasn't ignoring you! Unfortunatley my TT is not on the most stable of platforms (perhaps that is what i should be addressing before the cartridge?) so i want to choose a cartridge with a compliance that i imagine would help avoid skipping issues due to footfall. At the moment i am thinking about trying the Nagaoka MP-110 -reasonably priced, good reviews and seems to be a good match for the TP-16. Maybe i will invest in the Acutex too to see how it goes - it is certainly cheap enough.
Ta
Phil
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