View Full Version : Happy Anniversary - taking a Pink Triangle for a spin
Oldpinkman
29-07-2015, 19:07
This is a thread about my interest in modifying a Pink Triangle - my own early Mk1 PT from when I worked at the company. In part it is to investigate the "belt drive" prejudice, in part to revisit with Arthur the original thoughts behind the Anniversary turntable as the company's attempt at the ultimate refinement of the Pink Triangle ideas, in a "statement" product, and in large part a result of considering following the Pink Triangle modification thread on Vinyl Engine, and discussing what to do and how to do it with Arthur.
Early on it picked up hostile comment, and complete derailment into other subjects and I deleted the opening post and replaced it with a sulky reference to the thread crapping. I can no longer remember the original post, but have asked Marco to insert this so that the thread makes a bit more sense.
I've got a Pink Triangle at home now - the platter and bearing are nicely made (motor pulley is good too) but the rest of it is horribly engineered!
Spin is a great TT bearing. Certainly the best that I have used sonically.
This post reminds me that I need to sell my Mike New Technics bearing.
I must take some photos of it tomorrow....
Oldpinkman
30-07-2015, 10:14
I've got a Pink Triangle at home now - the platter and bearing are nicely made (motor pulley is good too) but the rest of it is horribly engineered!
That is of course urban legend. It is true that when you take the lid off a basic PT the appearance is home-built. However, the engineering is fine enough. It perhaps needs to be seen in the context of its time compared with its rival the LP12. Indeed, it was basically designed by Arthur, who at the time was working for Wessex Helicopters, as a response to his disgust at the pile of junk he got when he bought himself an LP12.
Now, at the time, Arthur rather naievly thought Linn should sell their decks at the cost of the components plus a tenner for their time, and forgot that VAT, dealer margin, distributor margin (pricing is international) and manufacturer overheads mean that as a broad brush guide final price will be 3x component cost. And the original PT's problem was it cost more than twice the cost of an LP12 and tried to sell for the same £300.
Great engineering includes a rigid, light, non-resonant sub-chassis. OK it was scruffy, but for a normal punter playing a record, why did they need to see it? Aerolam is a git to cut (they were hand cut with a jig-saw originally). In engineering terms far better than the boingy pressed steel LP12 item (LP12 £3 - PT £35 again)
Even the plinth was a profiled (ok ok I know - "skirting board") design on a PT compared with a plank of wood and a couple of routed grooves on a Linn. Of course, this necessitated the nemesis of Pink Triangle - quite the scruffiest and most unreliable thing on the turntable, the poxy pink lids - which due to the profile of the plinth had to be deeper than standard and so cheap injection moulded options not available. Cost of a smart pretty moulded in volume Linn lid - £3. Scruffy Pink PT lid - £35.
The suspension, which was easily adjustable from above, was also inherently stable and didn't need to be "guyed down" with the arm cable. Arranging for the centre of mass to be at the centre of suspension, and for the suspension to hang from springs rather than perch on them meant it was stabilised by gravity rather than destabilised by gravity (imagine balancing a weight on a coil spring with the weight on the top - it will want to wobble over, and once it tips won't return to centre. Now hang the weight below the spring and the opposite is true)
So scruffy - but sound functional engineering - which still performs to a very high standard. If you are using it, I would suggest a new belt and one of the new spin bearings which has transformed mine. If you are not, and thinking of selling it, let me know how much you want for it.
:)
Sorry, but it's not urban legend at all. The chassis on mine looks like it was cut out with blunt nail clippers and the finish of the top plate isn't very good. I'm not enamoured by the mechanism employed to level the suspension either (adjustable from the side). As you say though, the engineering is sound, (the conceptual engineering), it's the build quality which is a bit ropey.
The plinth isn't any better than on the Linn, both are profiled as you put it and both start off as planks of wood.
Injection moulding a lid isn't cheap at all - the cost of the mould is enormous. Hand fabricating a lid is much cheaper in small quantities - it's not better though.
"The old bearing was suffering from a bit of wow and flutter" I very much doubt that. I can think of a ton of things to improve before replacing the bearing!
Audio Advent
30-07-2015, 12:21
Maybe it was... with something like a Pink Triangle, you get people taking them apart and modding them (because it's already scruffy which encourages it) and making their own subchassis etc. That might well be the case if it has a complete, PT2 style subchassis which as been made to replace a PT1 version with it's motor hole.
Audio Advent
30-07-2015, 12:22
So is the Spin available already for the PT or just an idea Arthur played with. What is the Spin anyway, back to a non-inverted bearing?
Ammonite Audio
30-07-2015, 12:23
That is of course urban legend. It is true that when you take the lid off a basic PT the appearance is home-built. However, the engineering is fine enough. It perhaps needs to be seen in the context of its time compared with its rival the LP12. Indeed, it was basically designed by Arthur, who at the time was working for Wessex Helicopters, as a response to his disgust at the pile of junk he got when he bought himself an LP12.
Now, at the time, Arthur rather naievly thought Linn should sell their decks at the cost of the components plus a tenner for their time, and forgot that VAT, dealer margin, distributor margin (pricing is international) and manufacturer overheads mean that as a broad brush guide final price will be 3x component cost. And the original PT's problem was it cost more than twice the cost of an LP12 and tried to sell for the same £300.
Great engineering includes a rigid, light, non-resonant sub-chassis. OK it was scruffy, but for a normal punter playing a record, why did they need to see it? Aerolam is a git to cut (they were hand cut with a jig-saw originally). In engineering terms far better than the boingy pressed steel LP12 item (LP12 £3 - PT £35 again)
Even the plinth was a profiled (ok ok I know - "skirting board") design on a PT compared with a plank of wood and a couple of routed grooves on a Linn. Of course, this necessitated the nemesis of Pink Triangle - quite the scruffiest and most unreliable thing on the turntable, the poxy pink lids - which due to the profile of the plinth had to be deeper than standard and so cheap injection moulded options not available. Cost of a smart pretty moulded in volume Linn lid - £3. Scruffy Pink PT lid - £35.
The suspension, which was easily adjustable from above, was also inherently stable and didn't need to be "guyed down" with the arm cable. Arranging for the centre of mass to be at the centre of suspension, and for the suspension to hang from springs rather than perch on them meant it was stabilised by gravity rather than destabilised by gravity (imagine balancing a weight on a coil spring with the weight on the top - it will want to wobble over, and once it tips won't return to centre. Now hang the weight below the spring and the opposite is true)
So scruffy - but sound functional engineering - which still performs to a very high standard. If you are using it, I would suggest a new belt and one of the new spin bearings which has transformed mine. If you are not, and thinking of selling it, let me know how much you want for it.
:)
Speaking as someone who compared the Pink Triangle to the LP12 and Logic DM101 back in the early 80s, my memory of it was of something that sounded quite good, but it's quality was clearly woeful. Laughable, in fact. My money went on the LP12 and that sounded good too. It's notable that only the LP12 is a genuine survivor from those days of the British super-decks - that's partly because it was (and still is) well made and properly supported by its maker.
Audio Advent
30-07-2015, 12:38
...that's partly because it was (and still is) well made and properly supported by its maker.
and mostly due to its marketting, promotion and dealer control back in the day. Once you get a brand established in the media, you really don't have to do much work other than make regular changes 'upgrades' to keep your brand followers hooked and the gear still in the headlines.
It's true that keeping a product going over decades has massive benefits, especially to lifting a brand's status. Lifting the price also makes the old ones more valuable in comparison, lifting secondhand prices. Higher secondhand prices then in turn generate status and re-writes the history of that product ("if the old ones cost today, then they must have been really great back then!").
Reading the reviews in old mags, there was always a "this sounds better than the Linn" product popping up every other month, yet get back to today and people will rate the same era decks the other way around contradicting those reviews, often without actually having heard them back to back. And so the brand myth is purpetuated.
Even the great sounding PT1 got pressured into taking a backward step with the Linn motor of the PT2 due to marketing/magazine/dealer pressure such was the environment back then.
Really, I think the Linn survives today because of the how the business was run, including the very low cost of manufacture.
Personally I find Linns so so and prefered the PT 1 I had. Now have an Alphason though.
Oldpinkman
30-07-2015, 13:59
I never know where to start with forum experts.
Wow and flutter can be measured and was.
The UNIT cost of a moulded lid is much lower - and Linns was a standard size manufactured in volume - they even made it available to other manufacturers.
Oldpinkman
30-07-2015, 14:07
Sorry
Just realised someone asked about AK and spin. I believe he will offer it as a PT replacement bearing for general purchase, but it is not currently listed so I don't know when. It is just another non-inverted bearing - although on a forum full of people discussing which Technics just another non-inverted bearing is best...
The bearing has been discussed elsewhere - in this guise it is sapphire thrust plate and ceramic ball (the posh version)
Spectral Morn
30-07-2015, 15:12
I never know where to start with forum experts.
Wow and flutter can be measured and was.
The UNIT cost of a moulded lid is much lower - and Linns was a standard size manufactured in volume - they even made it available to other manufacturers.
Richard
As someone who worked in the trade back then, who had to set up many of the turntables the business sold, in my view only the Anniversary represented a quality level of fit and finish re build quality commensurate with selling price. The PT1 and 2 were in my direct opinion - re fit and finish - not and the way examples look now days shows they age very poorly. Yes they sounded good and could hold their own re performance to a degree, but I am sorry the inside was a dogs dinner - in my opinion.
Aerolam may be hard to cut but the awful - dare I say amateurish - jagged, uneven, edges bent sub chassis was poor. I am afraid the Victorian view if it isn't on display what does it matter how it looks does not hold water these days (nor should it ever have) and quality engineering should go hand in hand with excellent build, fit and finish.
Back in the day the Xerxes (not a fave of mine re its awful set up quirks), the Source, Voyd Valdi, Michell turntables etc all offered better build quality fit and finish, not to mention the turntables from Alphason (except their entry level effort which was awful in my opinion). My choice back in the day was the Voyd Valdi.
I wasn't going to comment but felt I had to because you dismissed valid points re build quality, which in my view and direct past trade experience reflects the accuracy of the other views being expressed.
Being honest Richard your view of Pink Triangle in my view seems to be somewhat blinkered and viewed very much through rose tinted glasses using nostalgia as lens.
Regards Neil
Oldpinkman
30-07-2015, 20:11
You know I treasure all the wisdom and kind words from people sitting at keyboards miles from being able to hear it. Sue, who has been busy at down to listen, heard one track, turned open mouthed and said "surely that's the best you've ever heard. She's only known me a few years, and I heard some serious kit way back as a callow youth. She's never heard an anniversary. But you know. I'm not sure it's not the best I've heard.
But you guys know better I'm sure
from reading the posts no ones saying its not a bad sounding turntable,just that the build quality is pants.
the main deciding factor for me going from an AR turntable to the lp12 is that i can still go out and buy new parts.
Spectral Morn
30-07-2015, 21:00
You know I treasure all the wisdom and kind words from people sitting at keyboards miles from being able to hear it. Sue, who has been busy at down to listen, heard one track, turned open mouthed and said "surely that's the best you've ever heard. She's only known me a few years, and I heard some serious kit way back as a callow youth. She's never heard an anniversary. But you know. I'm not sure it's not the best I've heard.
But you guys know better I'm sure
No one has dismissed your 'advertorial' - listening experience - but the comments re the quality of fit and finish relating to pre Anniversary Pink Triangle products are accurate - they were very badly built and the quality did not match the price being asked - in my opinion.
The worst one could say about Anniversary was the packaging did not prevent broken or smashed top plates occurring, where I worked we got several at different times like that. Nice turntable though. I liked it particularly at the time with SME 4 or 5 and Kiseki carts. The PSU looked good too unlike the thin metal walled, poorly finished items that came with earlier Pink Triangles.
Regards Neil
I had various PT's, continuously over a period of 25 years and a string of LP12's latterly too (and of the suspended belters, many Thorens, Gyrodeck et al.) so naturally have an opinion on this subject.
The first I had (for 15 years in all) was a Little Pink Thing and that, as a late model PT was a very nicely built thing, much superior to the Axis actually (which I also had at one point). Sadly both models had issues in subsequent years with their power supplies.
After the LPT I had a lovely Export (for a few short months) which I thought was a nicely built machine, the equal of the LP12 at that time in terms of build yet superior in terms of sound (IMHO of course :-D). The design had been refined enough by the Export days and the build quality improved a lot. Certainly the engineering concept was superior to the LP12 of the day which hadn't developed a huge amount at the time (post-Nirvana/Valhalla but pre-Lingo/Cirkus).
Shortly after that I got an Anniversary which I owned for many years (finally sold only a few weeks ago) and this was not only the ultimate expression of Arthurs 'sound' engineering at PT, it was, as pointed out by others, representative of just how far Pink Triangle Projects had come in terms of build quality. The one I owned never went wrong, right from new in 1992, to this day. It also remained one of the finest bouncy belt drive TT's I ever owned (including 5x LP12's from very early to very late models, from basic to more recent advanced models, with many of the best 'aftermarket' parts including Chris Harban plinths, and Khan toplates and all the latest trimmings and never ever ever did any LP12 I owned come even close to the Anni in terms of sound quality, or even build quality for that matter. The fact that an LP12 needs the equivalent of a Maven to set it up says the design itself is fundamentally flawed. I love record players in all forms and although I can be a bit scathing of LP12's at times, they were a frustrating experience, I do really like them (absolute fave was a classic 'Naimed' late 80's model in Black Ash ;-). I'm done with bouncy belt drives now though, favouring high mass designs.
For sure, early PT's, even PT Too's were inferior to the Linn build quality back then but in all honestly none of these early fruit box designs moved the game on significantly from the first of their breed (AR / Thorens TD150, owned). In the grand scheme of record player design and build quality, comparing contemporary 80's Pinks and Linns is splitting hairs.
A modern Linn though is a highly refined expression of that particular design and wants for nothing in terms of build quality, but then since the mid-90's Anni, its got another 20 years of development of engineering precision, manufacture and materials thinking on its side. Why the Linn prevailed and the Pink failed is simply a matter of history and the very fact that Linn WAS continuously developed and supported makes it a better ownership proposition for many today.
I lived near the Camberwell 'factory' and Arthur and Neil used to bring round their prototype Anniversarys, one of which actually spun backwards. I owned production unit Number three, and later, a high-number production deck. They did improve greatly in production quality, later ones built by an excellent Antipodean called Brett were very competitive with Linn and so on. In sound quality, they were, for me, streets ahead of the competition, with a quite wonderful mid-range, unobtainable on rival decks. The Anniversary is one of the finest sounding decks ever built (well, to me anyway) but Pink were Pink, and the customer support was just not good enough. Pity.
Now they are costly to buy, but there is a reason for that.......get one well-serviced, put on an SME Five, off you go on a magic ride. You could still do a lot worse.
Oldpinkman
31-07-2015, 12:12
Peter
I remember Brett - and the pony tail. You are right about the Anni with a SME5 (or Helius Orion) but having heard AK's restored unit - out of the loft at last - with an FX3 then that is another level. It's a pity the new one is going to be so expensive, but Arthur has learned from his mistakes - and finish is intended to be in the £10000 class. The original PT and Pip were massively over-specc'd for their original price, hence the poor finish, and the way to get out of that hole was to change the products a bit and launch Mk2 at a big price hike as a big improvement. I have a recently restored Pip and Pip2 side by side to compare. Pip 2 is a tiny bit better - with the battery supply a tiny bit more than that. But not £500 to £3000 better. Pip 1 should have been £1500. Pip 2 addressed the poor construction issues of Pip 1 as well as (pretty minor) circuit changes.
As I have been corresponding with Kevin privately, Spin really surprised me. I still have to pinch myself to believe it, and frankly wonder how fussed I am about the other mods I had planned. Arthur is unbearably smug - with "I told you so". Maybe I'll upgrade the motor, but for the rest - I'm not sure. OK its not an Anni - but its much more like an Anni than any other turntable.
Sorry to hi-jack this thread but I have a related question. I have owned an LPT-GTi since new (1993) and generally the build quality has been fine (apart from a couple of PSU issues). I recently acquired a lovely late model Export-GTi which has similar PSU issues (motor runs backwards). I had decided to go down the route of replacing the PSU with an external power supply (Heed Orbit 1). However, I am now wondering whether I should 'bite the bullet' and go for the full K Drive/DC motor option. Does anyone have any comments/advice/experience of the K Drive/DC motor - eg is it reliable, is it speed stable, is it worth the significant extra cost, etc?
Thanks in advance.
Oldpinkman
31-07-2015, 13:13
Hi Simon
K Drive is reliable and Funk's "rolls royce" solution. The VX is a more affordable version (about half price) and at least as good as (ok - plenty better than) the original export motor and electronics. I think if it were mine (and lets face it, apart from motor position, the motor and the electronics are the main differences between our decks) I would go for VX and a spin bearing. K-drive if you can afford both - but in terms of SPPV or whatever it is called - VX will do a perfectly adequate job, and spin will be an eye-opener.
DC motors are imho (and yer man AK's) infinitely preferable to AC motors. The AC motor in Export and LPT were used due to enormous pressure from the market to "use the Linn / Rega motor" - largely due to Martin Colloms (well we liked to blame him anyway). Linn have of course now introduced a DC motor as their "top" LP12 drive option long after PT was driven into the dust by this.
So, I would go DC, choose VX unless you are on a mission for "Anni copying" like I was, and with the money you save get a spin bearing. (Actually - check with Funk, because I am not sure spin for Pink Triangles is available to the public, and if it is, it needs a bonded achromat on the platter to centre it when fitting. It's not that hard, but its not a direct one for one replacement for the old bearing)
K - Drive is reliable. VX would be the obvious "Export level" equivalent DC upgrade
:)
Hi Simon
K Drive is reliable and Funk's "rolls royce" solution. The VX is a more affordable version (about half price) and at least as good as (ok - plenty better than) the original export motor and electronics. )
So the original motor doesn't turn the platter at the correct speed. The VX version gets a bit closer to the correct speed and the K drive 'Rolls Royce solution' does actually turn the platter at the correct speed?
You see, this is why I use a Technics SL1200....
Richard
Thanks for the very useful advice. I'll probably go for the K drive. I had not considered a bearing upgrade - that can be something to look forward to in the future.
Best rgds
Simon
PS: Macca - just measured the speed on my LPT-GTi (same PSU and AC motor as the Export-GTi), it came out at 179.5 sec/100 revs = 33.4rpm.
Gordon Steadman
31-07-2015, 14:42
Richard
Thanks for the very useful advice. I'll probably go for the K drive. I had not considered a bearing upgrade - that can be something to look forward to in the future.
Best rgds
Simon
PS: Macca - just measured the speed on my LPT-GTi (same PSU and AC motor as the Export-GTi), it came out at 179.5 sec/100 revs = 33.4rpm.
:eek: That must sound 'orribly sharp:eyebrows:
So the original motor doesn't turn the platter at the correct speed. The VX version gets a bit closer to the correct speed and the K drive 'Rolls Royce solution' does actually turn the platter at the correct speed?
You see, this is why I use a Technics SL1200....
It's why I use a Roksan. Even if it is 0.1 of an rpm slow or fast, it still sounds great. It could do with a dust though.
Oldpinkman
31-07-2015, 17:53
So the original motor doesn't turn the platter at the correct speed. The VX version gets a bit closer to the correct speed and the K drive 'Rolls Royce solution' does actually turn the platter at the correct speed?
You see, this is why I use a Technics SL1200....
Because you like listening to music with a balaclava on - at EXACTLY the right (adjustable) speed presumably. The K-Drive motor is significantly better - quieter and smoother, it could mount on the sub-chassis like the Anni motor. And costs 3 times as much as the VX motor which is perfectly functional in a less exotic deck - if a wee bit less silent and smooth, (although VX is smoother and quieter than the old synchronous motor in the export). If you hold the K-Drive motor in your hand with your eyes shut, you don't know when its running.
:cool:
Audio Advent
31-07-2015, 21:48
:eek: That must sound 'orribly sharp:eyebrows:
I'm sure you realise that the error on that time measurement will be about +/- a few tenths of a rev. So could concievably be the most accurate turntable speed ever.
Audio Advent
31-07-2015, 21:51
So the original motor doesn't turn the platter at the correct speed. The VX version gets a bit closer to the correct speed and the K drive 'Rolls Royce solution' does actually turn the platter at the correct speed?
You see, this is why I use a Technics SL1200....
?? The original does turn the platter at the correct speed, so does the VX and so does the K-Drive.
The only problem with the guys Export is that the capacitors have died, much like the common Valhalla problem.
1210s/1200 have problems with age too. Can't see that there is a difference.
Audio Advent
31-07-2015, 22:03
Richard
As someone who worked in the trade back then, who had to set up many of the turntables the business sold, in my view only the Anniversary represented a quality level of fit and finish re build quality commensurate with selling price. The PT1 and 2 were in my direct opinion - re fit and finish - not and the way examples look now days shows they age very poorly. Yes they sounded good and could hold their own re performance to a degree, but I am sorry the inside was a dogs dinner - in my opinion.
The ones I've come across look good because people have looked after them. I've had old fruitbox LP12s which haven't and have fallen apart all over the place. The only thing I think goes wrong in fit and finish with a PT1/2, apart from the lid, is the top plate coming off. On the Linn it's bolted, on the PT it's deliberately decoupled. Any bonded decoupling is going to be a weak point over age because of the aging of glue, foam pads in this case. I've never experienced jagged aerolam subchassis myself so I do wonder if your memory is coloured from a particular experience or batch ?
Once a old deck begins to look shabby (this back in the day as people moved away from vinyl) e.g. from a broken and splitting lid, then that deck is treated with a certain amount of disregard, doesn't matter what deck it is.
Audio Advent
31-07-2015, 22:06
I've always fancied an Anni. Also an Alphason Symphony and a Towshend Rock Reference. All decks with a strong vision in terms of technical design.
Hi Richard,
Whilst we appreciate and enjoy your contributions, it's getting to that stage again where I must ask you to scale back on the near-incessant PT/Funk promotion. Almost every thread or post of yours recently contains some reference to the former, and it's now almost getting to the shilling stage.
If you do wish to act as Funk's official PR man, then as I've said before, I'm happy to discuss trade terms with you, which will then allow to perform that role, 'unmolested', as it were. Otherwise, please find some alternative subjects to discuss - i.e. change the record.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
31-07-2015, 23:23
The ones I've come across look good because people have looked after them. I've had old fruitbox LP12s which haven't and have fallen apart all over the place. The only thing I think goes wrong in fit and finish with a PT1/2, apart from the lid, is the top plate coming off. On the Linn it's bolted, on the PT it's deliberately decoupled. Any bonded decoupling is going to be a weak point over age because of the aging of glue, foam pads in this case. I've never experienced jagged aerolam subchassis myself so I do wonder if your memory is coloured from a particular experience or batch ?
Once a old deck begins to look shabby (this back in the day as people moved away from vinyl) e.g. from a broken and splitting lid, then that deck is treated with a certain amount of disregard, doesn't matter what deck it is.
This was how they looked brand new out of the box (back in the day) and age doesn't improve them. To be clear I was referring to PT1 and 2 not LPT or Anniversary as I haven't seen mature examples of those only new, out of the box examples.
No my memory is not clouded, I refer to both new (seen at the time) and S/H examples seen many years later.
Regards Neil
hifi_dave
01-08-2015, 08:43
This was how they looked brand new out of the box (back in the day) and age doesn't improve them. To be clear I was referring to PT1 and 2 not LPT or Anniversary as I haven't seen mature examples of those only new, out of the box examples.
No my memory is not clouded, I refer to both new (seen at the time) and S/H examples seen many years later.
Regards Neil
"Back in the day" we sold PT, not many, maybe 12 - 15 in all. Each one was slightly different to the one before and every one needed to be repaired before we could set it up and install. The build was pretty naff, flimsy and often used double sided tape to secure parts.
Other turntables we sold were/are Nottingham Analogue, Michell, Linn and Rega. All built like tanks, easy to set up, stayed set up and still (probably) still working faultlessly.
Oldpinkman
01-08-2015, 09:18
Hi Richard,
Whilst we appreciate and enjoy your contributions, it's getting to that stage again where I must ask you to scale back on the near-incessant PT/Funk promotion. Almost every thread or post of yours recently contains some reference to the former, and it's now almost getting to the shilling stage.
If you do wish to act as Funk's official PR man, then as I've said before, I'm happy to discuss trade terms with you, which will then allow to perform that role, 'unmolested', as it were. Otherwise, please find some alternative subjects to discuss - i.e. change the record.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Marco
I think you are being a little unfair. I suspect I know the problem. Unable to resist the allure of the shiny palantir of Orthanc, you have been spying on Mordor, and the eye of Sauron has fixed you in its stare. The "sh" word gives it away. Probably fuelled by the cretin in charge of legal affairs at Mordor having trashed his Pink Triangle by replacing the springs in the suspension with screws. The clue is in the name. Suspension. Try replacing the springs in your Mercedes with bolts - it will be easy to keep level, but some other aspects critical to performance may suffer a bit. Why don't you just invite the Mordor boss to be a mod and have done with it.
I have reviewed my posts. The last 10 have been on this thread about Funk and PT. But really that's one gratuitous post about Funk and PT (starting the thread) and lots of responses. Surely I can reply to questions and join in discussions once they are started? And the "shill" post was to say I had had a bearing fitted in MY turntable - although actually what I really wanted was an Anni sub-chassis, premotec motor, vector pulley system etc etc. But AK had insisted on starting with the bearing and I had been very VERY surprised by the result. To the point of wondering whether to bother with the rest of the mods. Given I have also managed to get Arthur to promise to relaunch Anniversary, concluding that an old banger PT with a new bearing is nearly as good is kind of anti-Funk really.
Prior to that ONE post about MY upgrade of MY turntable after a visit to MY friend
I posted about HMRC's investigation into ebay traders (like Mordor)
I posted about flattening records, having warped the first 2 recent vinyl purchases I bought in years by leaving them on a coffee table in the sun
I posted on Jez's thread about Hi Fidelity (extensively)
I posted (very carefully) on the thread about cable burn in
I posted about site admin and declaring names
I posted about Loudspeaker Monitors
I posted about my move to France
I have now gone back 2 pages of my recent posts - and other than responding to questions and posts that resulted from ONE POST about MY BEARING on MY turntable - there has been no mention of Funk or Pink Triangle
Don't let the bastard run your forum.
I was about to post about cables, but that was in the context of the Benchmark AHB2 amp which I posted about and, in spite of being a new design with new patented technologies that is taking the rest of the audio world by storm, there was no interest here so I let it die. I daresay Mordor would call that shillling - although Benchmark are a completely independent US based manufacturer who have never even heard of me, and the amplifier design, AAA patented technology, and all other patents are supplied by THX, owned by George Lucas (the creator of Star Wars). The man is obsessed and completely off his rocker (Sauron, not George Lucas). Don't let him run your forum!
Since I have made ONE initial post about Funk and a series of responses. Are you saying I am no longer able to respond to comments made by others when they relate to Funk or Pink Triangle items?
The idea of applying for a trade account would be very dis-honest. I am not trade, and have no financial interest in any HiFi business (except arguably, Stonegate Audio - run by Andrew Watson, former senior engineer at Kef, who is launching his first speaker product any month now, who is a client of my accountancy practice. But he is a client because he is a friend - we trained at the same karate dojo - and he knew Andrew Jones, his predecessor, and Owen's twin brother) I just have friends in Hifi. If I was "trade" for Funk I couldn't supply product, technical information, or anything else reliably as I have no involvement whatsoever, apart from being a friend of Arthurs. I know you would like Arthur to join again. He is the only person who should have a trade account, and he has decided not to. There is a reason I used to work with him and don't now. And that is the reason we are able to stay friends. He is very easily offended, "a sensitive plant" as Shelly would have it, and gets badly hurt by comments like Neil the Daleks (who has been crossed off his Christmas card list). He finds it better to stay away from forums, and we find it best to be just friends.
I have a Pink Triangle turntable, Funk arm, Dynavector cartridge, 2 PT Pips as preamps, a Quad 405-2 and Benchmark AHB2 amp and ESL 63 speakers. Chances are, those are the things I am most likely to talk about on a HiFi forum. Or I could just chip in with posts about things I know nothing about.
Have a look through my recent posts as I have just done, and check that the eye of Sauron is not controlling you :cool:
Might I suggest that virtually nothing said on these forums has any real effect on sales. Certainly, lots of praise for dear old Arthur is most unlikely to make much difference. I don't post much any more, and can't say I enjoy the somewhat over-bearing tone which has crept into the moderation of the site.
It's just a load of experiences and opinions, nothing more . Readers are more than capable of evaluating what various contributions are worth. They don't need their hands held.....they're not stupid, and they are not gullible either.
Spectral Morn
01-08-2015, 09:47
He is very easily offended, "a sensitive plant" as Shelly would have it, and gets badly hurt by comments like Neil the Daleks (who has been crossed off his Christmas card list). He finds it better to stay away from forums, and we find it best to be just friends.
Richard you were quiet rude and dismissive of folks who were critical of early PT and you continued to be so because the truth hurts re the poor quality, build fit and finish of early Pink Triangle turntables, which isn't myth or urban legend its fact.
I posted in reply because I think it somewhat disingenuous and blinkered for you to have attempted to soft soap genuine criticism and dismiss commentators as so called 'forum experts'. I am sorry Arthur didn't like that but the facts are the facts and I stand by what I said.
I was careful to make sure my comments were only related to early PT and not later in order to keep the balance, that the criticism was aimed at only focussed were it needed to be.
I replied to this thread to put the record straight, which another dealer at the time has also now done, to address your dismissive rude, rewriting history comments aimed at folks who dared to state the truth - early PT turntables were badly made that is a truth, maybe an uncomfortable truth, but truth. Later ones were a different animal altogether.
I always enjoy Richard's posts. He brings an insiders perspective to the subject. I do not have a Pink Triangle deck, never have had, and will probably never buy one but I like to read about various brands, and their history is interesting. There are more than enough Techie fan boys on this forum who are allowed to wax lyrical about that deck. I don't have a Technics 1210 either, nor will I ever buy one but people are free to post information on them if they like.
Marco
I think you are being a little unfair. I suspect I know the problem. Unable to resist the allure of the shiny palantir of Orthanc, you have been spying on Mordor, and the eye of Sauron has fixed you in its stare. The "sh" word gives it away. Probably fuelled by the cretin in charge of legal affairs at Mordor having trashed his Pink Triangle by replacing the springs in the suspension with screws. The clue is in the name. Suspension. Try replacing the springs in your Mercedes with bolts - it will be easy to keep level, but some other aspects critical to performance may suffer a bit. Why don't you just invite the Mordor boss to be a mod and have done with it.
I have reviewed my posts. The last 10 have been on this thread about Funk and PT. But really that's one gratuitous post about Funk and PT (starting the thread) and lots of responses. Surely I can reply to questions and join in discussions once they are started? And the "shill" post was to say I had had a bearing fitted in MY turntable - although actually what I really wanted was an Anni sub-chassis, premotec motor, vector pulley system etc etc. But AK had insisted on starting with the bearing and I had been very VERY surprised by the result. To the point of wondering whether to bother with the rest of the mods. Given I have also managed to get Arthur to promise to relaunch Anniversary, concluding that an old banger PT with a new bearing is nearly as good is kind of anti-Funk really.
Prior to that ONE post about MY upgrade of MY turntable after a visit to MY friend
I posted about HMRC's investigation into ebay traders (like Mordor)
I posted about flattening records, having warped the first 2 recent vinyl purchases I bought in years by leaving them on a coffee table in the sun
I posted on Jez's thread about Hi Fidelity (extensively)
I posted (very carefully) on the thread about cable burn in
I posted about site admin and declaring names
I posted about Loudspeaker Monitors
I posted about my move to France
I have now gone back 2 pages of my recent posts - and other than responding to questions and posts that resulted from ONE POST about MY BEARING on MY turntable - there has been no mention of Funk or Pink Triangle
Don't let the bastard run your forum.
I was about to post about cables, but that was in the context of the Benchmark AHB2 amp which I posted about and, in spite of being a new design with new patented technologies that is taking the rest of the audio world by storm, there was no interest here so I let it die. I daresay Mordor would call that shillling - although Benchmark are a completely independent US based manufacturer who have never even heard of me, and the amplifier design, AAA patented technology, and all other patents are supplied by THX, owned by George Lucas (the creator of Star Wars). The man is obsessed and completely off his rocker (Sauron, not George Lucas). Don't let him run your forum!
Since I have made ONE initial post about Funk and a series of responses. Are you saying I am no longer able to respond to comments made by others when they relate to Funk or Pink Triangle items?
The idea of applying for a trade account would be very dis-honest. I am not trade, and have no financial interest in any HiFi business (except arguably, Stonegate Audio - run by Andrew Watson, former senior engineer at Kef, who is launching his first speaker product any month now, who is a client of my accountancy practice. But he is a client because he is a friend - we trained at the same karate dojo - and he knew Andrew Jones, his predecessor, and Owen's twin brother) I just have friends in Hifi. If I was "trade" for Funk I couldn't supply product, technical information, or anything else reliably as I have no involvement whatsoever, apart from being a friend of Arthurs. I know you would like Arthur to join again. He is the only person who should have a trade account, and he has decided not to. There is a reason I used to work with him and don't now. And that is the reason we are able to stay friends. He is very easily offended, "a sensitive plant" as Shelly would have it, and gets badly hurt by comments like Neil the Daleks (who has been crossed off his Christmas card list). He finds it better to stay away from forums, and we find it best to be just friends.
I have a Pink Triangle turntable, Funk arm, Dynavector cartridge, 2 PT Pips as preamps, a Quad 405-2 and Benchmark AHB2 amp and ESL 63 speakers. Chances are, those are the things I am most likely to talk about on a HiFi forum. Or I could just chip in with posts about things I know nothing about.
Have a look through my recent posts as I have just done, and check that the eye of Sauron is not controlling you :cool:
Thats biggest load of crap ive read in years. whoever your referring to i can assure you Marco runs this forum.
Richard,
Rest assured that no-one is 'controlling' me. Trust me, I am not the type to be controlled. I'm simply responding to what others and I here (mods and members) have observed, and indeed a few have complained to me about: your rather over-exuberant 'obsession' with PT and Funk.
Now whilst I agree that your last few posts haven't all been about the above, the ones that have, came across more as a PR exercise than user enthusiasm - as if that was the deliberate intention - and *that* is the problem, and something that I would ask you to curb.
Think about it along these lines... If we were to start a poll asking members about their impressions of you, based on your postings, how many do you think would come back with 'Funk Fanboy'? ;)
Now whilst you might consider that unfair or inaccurate, based on the stats, it is nevertheless the impression you've created.
To draw a parallel, it's like people having the rather jaundiced view that AoS is full of nothing else but 'Techie fanboys', based on simply superficial impressions, when the actual reality is rather different, and the facts show that there are also many fans here of plenty of other turntables.
What you must do is try and shake off your 'Funk fanboy/Funk PR man' image, and show folks that you've got much more to offer to the forum than that! :cool:
Marco.
...and can't say I enjoy the somewhat over-bearing tone which has crept into the moderation of the site.
Examples please, Peter? Actual quotes of what you're referring to would be useful, if we're to try and do something about it :)
Marco.
I thought the rules about posting reviews had been tightened up recently; to wit:
'There will be no exaggerated hyping-up of products, any secrets or 'mystery wonders'. Prices and full details of products must be provided up front at the start of any review, or when any comments are made about them on the forum. If such information for any reason is unavailable, then comments or reviews must wait, and only be posted when said information becomes available.' (Marco)
So, is the Spin available, and what does it cost?
There are more than enough Techie fan boys on this forum who are allowed to wax lyrical about that deck.
As I said, though, there's a difference between natural user enthusiasm and what seems like a deliberate PR exercise.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
01-08-2015, 09:59
Might I suggest that virtually nothing said on these forums has any real effect on sales. Certainly, lots of praise for dear old Arthur is most unlikely to make much difference. I don't post much any more, and can't say I enjoy the somewhat over-bearing tone which has crept into the moderation of the site.
It's just a load of experiences and opinions, nothing more . Readers are more than capable of evaluating what various contributions are worth. They don't need their hands held.....they're not stupid, and they are not gullible either.
Peter
No one has been critical on this thread of Funk products but Pink Triangle (no longer trading and long gone) ones and early ones i.e the PT 1 and 2.
I was wearing my 'I was a dealer back in the day hat' when I said what I said but also addressing (mod hat) rude and dismissive comments which in my opinion, direct experience (I was in the trade then and the dealership I worked for sold PT products) were not accurate but disingenuous and of the lets rewrite history and discredit valid comments type.
I am sorry you don't feel setting the record straight replies are needed and fall under the overbearing type but their you go, we will have to agree to disagree.
Regards Neil
Oldpinkman
01-08-2015, 10:22
I thought the rules about posting reviews had been tightened up recently; to wit:
'There will be no exaggerated hyping-up of products, any secrets or 'mystery wonders'. Prices and full details of products must be provided up front at the start of any review, or when any comments are made about them on the forum. If such information for any reason is unavailable, then comments or reviews must wait, and only be posted when said information becomes available.' (Marco)
So, is the Spin available, and what does it cost?
A useful post since it makes my points
1) Can I respond? or is that too much Funk?
2) Because I am NOT part of Funk, I don't know the answer. I could phone Arthur and ask him. My guess is , if there is a market he will sell them, and the price would be similar to the existing bearing he has, because it is the same item with a PT fit. There is nothing on his website - but, that is hardly the most reliable or up to date site on the web. He usually has a minimum engineering order of 5 - even for prototypes so I would have thought there were another 3 kicking around somewhere.
3) Does it matter whether they are for sale or not? I'm not trying to sell them. I have for some time been mumbling about an ambition to "pimp" MY PT - and FINALLY we did something about it. Except that I have a mate in the trade who can enable me to do things I can't do myself, its no different to any other DIY project
There is no hype of a product - just a description of a bespoke modification to MY turntable. As someone else pointed out forums are an insignificant part of Arthurs business - a few achromats, and a few techie pimp products. I don't think I know another FX arm owner on a forum. The UK as a whole is of negligible significance to Arthur - Germany is his big market - where "funk" has another meaning. Next America, then Singapore (or Malaysia - I forget - somewhere eastern).
There was no review - I had just, at last, started the modifications I planned to MY turntable, with a bit of trade assistance.
I think others have noted, this is getting a bit too procedural and reminiscent of the exagerrated self-importance another forum places on the "sanctity of forum purity". It is Marco's forum, and his to make the rules on, but surely we are all just talking about our record players, not ending child poverty? :doh:
Might I suggest that virtually nothing said on these forums has any real effect on sales. Certainly, lots of praise for dear old Arthur is most unlikely to make much difference. I don't post much any more, and can't say I enjoy the somewhat over-bearing tone which has crept into the moderation of the site.
It's just a load of experiences and opinions, nothing more . Readers are more than capable of evaluating what various contributions are worth. They don't need their hands held.....they're not stupid, and they are not gullible either.
You might suggest it and it may be true in some cases certainly not in others. The fact is that forum exposure can effect sales (both ways). Not so much as the printed press but their influence is waning and that of forums is growing.
The remainder of your comments I completely agree with, however that does not mean that posts outside the trade room should be allowed to descend into 'advertorials' or drip-drip attempts to establish certain designers as gurus or geniuses.
There was no review - I had just, at last, started the modifications I planned to MY turntable, with a bit of trade assistance.
I think others have noted, this is getting a bit too procedural and reminiscent of the exagerrated self-importance another forum places on the "sanctity of forum purity". It is Marco's forum, and his to make the rules on, but surely we are all just talking about our record players, not ending child poverty? :doh:
When is review not a review? I thought the Spin was available because Cagey H said he had one too and it was great. I'm not a moderator here or anywhere else, just trying to work out what the rules are around product reviews.
Oldpinkman
01-08-2015, 10:47
When is review not a review? I thought the Spin was available because Cagey H said he had one too and it was great. I'm not a moderator here or anywhere else, just trying to work out what the rules are around product reviews.
OK - "spin" is the name Arthur gave his bearing when he supplied it for sale for Technics upgrades. It is the Sapphire bearing made to fit a Technics SL1200 - rather than made to fit a Funk Sapphire. I might equally have described this bearing fitted to my turntable as a "Sapphire" bearing, but Kevin and I enjoy a bit of banter about our different TT's. If Arthur decides to sell it he may just call it a PT bearing or "spin". Thinking about it, he almost certainly will sell it, since it has become de facto the replacment bearing for PT's. He is clearly not going to muck about getting an "original" anni bearing made when this one works better and costs about the same. Volumes are likely to be tiny - hence making all the bearings the same (Vector, LSD and Flamenca use bearings of the same design, with less expensive materials (no sapphire thrust plates etc)
But this was not a review - it was a description of my personal turntable modification project on a 25 year old turntable. Take a look at the pictures. Do they look like a product promo or advertorial or "review" or do they look like some hastily shot pictures with a phone of a deck I didn't even bother to dust, whipped off the shelf at short notice, and fitted into a busy schedule?
I will post about the bearing, again, in the next post. I have just put a record on
I think others have noted, this is getting a bit too procedural and reminiscent of the exagerrated self-importance another forum places on the "sanctity of forum purity". It is Marco's forum, and his to make the rules on, but surely we are all just talking about our record players, not ending child poverty? :doh:
If you accept and address what I outlined in my previous response, and lose the 'Funk PR' image, you'll be ok! ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
01-08-2015, 11:03
OK - a bit more about MY experiences of MY bearing modification to MY turntable.
I went to have a quick listen to Barbara Streisand's Partners LP - "The Way we were". I had been a bit disappointed with the production on this. (It's the latest "tune" Sue and I are rehearsing). Moreover, with all the talk of super solid steady SL1200's I had got a bit wow paranoid. And there is warble on the last note at the end of the song sung by Babs. Sue's view was it was age, and a tired diaphragm. I was more paranoid. I can't be sure what was bothering me before, but there is still a warble now - probably less. However, the same warble is there on the CD that came with the LP - so now I buy Sue's tired diaphragm explanation.
What was interesting - given my personal frustration with so many other peoples subjective descriptions - and my recollection of how different say an LP12 and Ittok sounded to a CD - was how similar the CD and LP sounded. Not the same, but tonally the same. And how much better the LP was. The presentations are almost identical - same detail, same lateral imaging, same tonal balance. The difference was additional depth and "air" on the LP
And I realised - that was an "Anni experience", of the sort Peter has described earlier in this thread - and the first "Anni experience" I have had in a long time - and I can't stop grinning.
Now - lets be clear - my experience, in MY system. A lot of that I think is down to the recent arrival of a serviced Pip 2, and the Benchmark AHB2, and taking a heat gun to the covers on the ESL63's. It's not JUST the bearing. But the result is very nice indeed - and definitely that "Anni experience" anyone who has heard an Anni will recognise.
It almost certainly won't be as good as a true Anni (with the same bearing) - my experience is that the science means a proper Anni would be better. But it achieved that sit back and float away quality that has been nearly there, but not quite in my record player recently.
And I am PERSONALLY enjoying it very much.
Pop round and see what you think ;)
Audio Advent
01-08-2015, 17:30
Richard you were quiet rude and dismissive of folks who were critical of early PT and you continued to be so because the truth hurts re the poor quality, build fit and finish of early Pink Triangle turntables, which isn't myth or urban legend its fact.
I posted in reply because I think it somewhat disingenuous and blinkered for you to have attempted to soft soap genuine criticism and dismiss commentators as so called 'forum experts'. I am sorry Arthur didn't like that but the facts are the facts and I stand by what I said.
I was careful to make sure my comments were only related to early PT and not later in order to keep the balance, that the criticism was aimed at only focussed were it needed to be.
I replied to this thread to put the record straight, which another dealer at the time has also now done, to address your dismissive rude, rewriting history comments aimed at folks who dared to state the truth - early PT turntables were badly made that is a truth, maybe an uncomfortable truth, but truth. Later ones were a different animal altogether.
Having been reading this thread from the start, I can't see anything in his posts which has been dismissively rude. I can see disagreement, nothing more.
That people need to have their views publically acknowledged else be insulted seems a little... can't find the words.. well very thin skinned at least. Are we not creating conflict for the sake of some kind of preservation of reputation on the internet, a reputation of being correct or something? I don't understand it personally.
Audio Advent
01-08-2015, 17:35
Richard,
Rest assured that no-one is 'controlling' me. Trust me, I am not the type to be controlled. I'm simply responding to what others and I here (mods and members) have observed, and indeed a few have complained to me about: your rather over-exuberant 'obsession' with PT and Funk.
Now whilst I agree that your last few posts haven't all been about the above, the ones that have, came across more as a PR exercise than user enthusiasm - as if that was the deliberate intention - and *that* is the problem, and something that I would ask you to curb.
Think about it along these lines... If we were to start a poll asking members about their impressions of you, based on your postings, how many do you think would come back with 'Funk Fanboy'? ;)
Now whilst you might consider that unfair or inaccurate, based on the stats, it is nevertheless the impression you've created.
To draw a parallel, it's like people having the rather jaundiced view that AoS is full of nothing else but 'Techie fanboys', based on simply superficial impressions, when the actual reality is rather different, and the facts show that there are also many fans here of plenty of other turntables.
What you must do is try and shake off your 'Funk fanboy/Funk PR man' image, and show folks that you've got much more to offer to the forum than that! :cool:
Marco.
I don't understand this.
So enthusiasm for a brand isn't allowed? There are people on here with names which reference the brand they're into.
That Richard's turntable is a PT and is friends with the designer then that means that pretty much all talk about his turntable will understandably involve it being taken back to the designer and being fettled with.
That's just his life and how his hifi-life happens to be. Should we make some rule that people who are friends with a particular brand designer cannot talk about that aspect of their hifi at all ? Seems daft. Some people just go with a brand and that's it and there must be many Beresford fanboys on here because Beresford is too with most of their posts about the latest mods by Stan... Isn't that the same?
Audio Advent
01-08-2015, 17:37
This was how they looked brand new out of the box (back in the day) and age doesn't improve them. To be clear I was referring to PT1 and 2 not LPT or Anniversary as I haven't seen mature examples of those only new, out of the box examples.
No my memory is not clouded, I refer to both new (seen at the time) and S/H examples seen many years later.
Regards Neil
Out of the box, well that's fair enough! :lol:
I've only ever come across ones that have survived off the secondhand market and therefore were the good ones by natural selection.
Export ones too were solid with their thick and properly attached top plate.
I don't understand this.
So enthusiasm for a brand isn't allowed? There are people on here with names which reference the brand they're into.
That Richard's turntable is a PT and is friends with the designer then that means that pretty much all talk about his turntable will understandably involve it being taken back to the designer and being fettled with.
That's just his life and how his hifi-life happens to be. Should we make some rule that people who are friends with a particular brand designer cannot talk about that aspect of their hifi at all ? Seems daft. Some people just go with a brand and that's it and there must be many Beresford fanboys on here because Beresford is too with most of their posts about the latest mods by Stan... Isn't that the same?
Nope. I don't know any user here of any other piece of kit, Beresford included, who's as 'vocal' about their love of it as Richard is with Funk/PT. There's a difference between natural user enthusiasm and what has seemed almost like shilling. Like I said, such incessant 'promotion' can come across more as a deliberate PR exercise.
You may disagree, and that's fine, but I can assure you that plenty of others see it as I've outlined above, and indeed have complained about it [in the sense that if Richard is going to 'promote' Funk all the time, then he should have a trade account for the purpose], so what should I do, just sit back and ignore their complaints, or address them, as I have done?
In any case, the most important thing is that Richard himself has taken my comments on board, and will observe them in future :)
Marco.
Audio Advent
01-08-2015, 19:17
Well there you go! Exactly proving my point about being overly sensitive and that you probably should do something about that...
I was laughing about the situation of you finding them in need of repair when as soon as you got them. That first hand experience of how they arrived brand new in the box obviously pales my experience of only having known them on the secondhand market where those which have survived are normally well kept and solid.
As I said, if you were having to repair them as soon as you got them brand new, then your expression of your experience is fair enough! And is a kind of ridiculous situation which is amusing. So let's laugh about it! :lol:.
As I said, though, there's a difference between natural user enthusiasm and what seems like a deliberate PR exercise.
Marco.
It certainly does not seem that way to me. But what do I know? Richard has his own perspective and we are (mostly) all grown up enough to understand that and deal with it. As I said I like Richard's posts they do not in the slightest influence me to buy Pink Triangle products, nor Funk Firm products. Sounds like some people are over reacting.
That's fine, Graeme. I also enjoy reading Richard's posts. However, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the impression that they sometimes give, whenever Funk is mentioned.
Anyway, let's move on and not dwell on that anymore :)
Marco.
Nope. I don't know any user here of any other piece of kit, Beresford included, who's as 'vocal' about their love of it as Richard is with Funk/PT.
Have a look in the mirror :eek: any time a question comes up about a Technics bearing, PSU or platter upgrade:eyebrows:
I think someone recently even bought a product based on your recommendation/enthusiasm for said product.
Lol.... I recommend what I think works, in the context of how I consider it'll help the person I'm recommending it to, based on the system they've got. I don't bang on about the same subject again and again, not that I necessarily think Richard does.
However, that is undoubtedly the perception some people have, particularly registered traders here who legitimately consider that if they have to pay to advertise their goods, then Richard should too, if he seeks to use the forum to further Funk's commercial interests, in the way of an employee (although I accept that the latter isn't actually the case).
Anyway, I believe you've now settled on using the Spin bearing. How's it coming on? :)
Marco.
The Spin is doing rather nicely.
You really need to hear a SL1200 equipped with one. There is a bigger difference than I had imagined possible.
Audio Advent
01-08-2015, 23:52
However, that is undoubtedly the perception some people have, particularly registered traders here who legitimately consider that if they have to pay to advertise their goods, then Richard should too, if he seeks to use the forum to further Funk's commercial interests, in the way of an employee (although I accept that the latter isn't actually the case).
Ah... that's what I guessed. Are you sure they are not acting out of a self-centred ulterior motive whilst sticking two fingers up to the main user base, the genuine enthusiast? Are these people with other bearings or turntables for sale? Maybe not and is just a paying for a trade account issue (a trade account doesn't cost much, so seems miserly to complain and they get their own sub-forum). Kind of surprised people selling streaming devices haven't taken issue with say Rasberry Pi and iQaudIO DAC+ promotion for example and wanting someone to pay for their own trade account. :)
The difference, in terms of the RPi, is that there has been no deliberate 'promotion', as such; simply justified and accumulated user enthusiasm, carried out by said users sharing their experiences with others, for no personal gain. Some see Richard's motives, by continually 'promoting' Funk, rather differently - and *that* is the problem...
I can also state that the traders who made the complaints are not direct competitors of Funk. They simply wanted parity, and for Richard to pay his dues, the same as they do, if he was here to deliberately promote and advertise Funk in any sort of 'official' capacity - and of course, I had to respond to that, as it was fair comment.
However, as long as Richard reins in his PT/Funk 'obsession', and discusses other hi-fi topics too, which he assures me he will, there will be no problem :)
Marco.
P.S It should also be noted that the (very reasonable) £50 annual fee traders pay to advertise here goes directly towards the running costs of the site, which as the forum grows, escalate each year. Anything left over is invested in the site's future development [software/memory upgrades, increased levels of technical support, when necessary, etc]. It certainly does NOT keep me in slurping a champagne lifestyle!! ;)
Oldpinkman
02-08-2015, 08:40
OK. I get the trade account thing, and agree £50 is buttons. Even though, as noted previously a hifi forum is of negligible value commercially to a business like Arthurs.
You need a new intermediate category for "friends of trade". As mentioned I am friends with Andrew Jones, Owen, and Andrew Watson as well, and if AW comes round with a pair of his LS35a bass extenders for me to play with for a few days, my natural instinct would be to talk about it.
Regarding Arthur, as I mentioned it would be quite fraudulent for me to pretend to be trade. During the business of sorting out Cagey's arm AK and I had a "full and frank discussion" which resulted in him completely blanking me for nearly 3 months (not for the first time in our friendship). So if somebody wanted information or an issue resolving I have about as much influence as you do. Maybe a tad more.
As we have agreed, I had recently made a number of posts on other matters. This initiation of a discussion was about MY turntable pimping project, which just happens to start with a new bearing from the only person able to supply such things.
And that was a bit of a surprise - to be honest I was mostly humouring him on the basis that the moving parts needed to be "fully fit for purpose" before doing the real modifications. I wasn't expecting any significant improvement - and remain surprised.
:cool:
Oldpinkman
02-08-2015, 08:53
A quick clarification on the PT quality issue.
Firstly - so what? What does it matter today about a business long since closed. But regarding my rose tinted spectacles, I think rather I have a more balanced view than the popular urban myth
Yes - both product quality and dealer support (effectively customer service) were poor at times at PT. My spell as MD was around the launch of DaCapo, Ventrical and the design contracts for Richer Sounds, which bought in much needed cash, and together with Brett in charge of production, resulted in better standards (PT was started on a shoe string, manufacture in Arthurs Mums kitchen, and funds shortage was at the root of the quality issues)
Moreover the business suffered from the massive "Linn support system" from Martin Colloms and "slowing under load" to Linn dealer newsletters warning "not to lick a PT platter, because of the AIDS risk". At the time Neal and Arthur had close personal friends dieing of AIDS and the humour was lost on them. And it was grinding their business into the dust, because, in the UK at least no dealer with an established lucrative business supplying the magazines favourite of Linn Naim, could dare to stock PT for fear of being cut-off. (Orpington HiFi was one of the few to stock both)
For all that, acknowledging some poor reliability, and a "home made" quality under the top-plate actually thousands of units were shipped and worked perfectly. I suspect my PT (my second) is typical. As the photos show, nothing chic and sophisticated like an SME or even Michell, but it worked first time out of the box, has done so for over 20 years, is still serviceable, and the only fault was the DC input socket on the back wore loose. The really shabby bit is the lid - which does show, and always let the units down cosmetically. I reckon 95%+++ of all PT units shipped were like mine.
Moreover - setup is and always has been a doddle. For this latest modification we had to have the top plate and base plate and arm and arm board off, and the suspension needed lowering signficantly. It took 20 seconds to dress the arm cable, and the longest part about re-levelling was finding a PT suspension tool at the factory. To bring it home I screwed up the transit screw, and at home released it. It worked perfectly first time with no further adjustment, and will every time I ship it. And its always that easy. You know what they say - if making love is a pain in the arse, you're doing it wrong! ;)
Many of the thousands of PT's produced were shipped abroad, where service back-up is more remote, to distributors who distribute Funk today. Yes - some were faulty - too many - but nowhere near as many as the urban legend would have you believe.
But you know what they say - never let the truth get in the way of a good story :)
The irony of you last sentence could hardly be more profound. Honestly, there is looking at things through rose tinted spectacles and then there is the Oldpinkman marketing spiel - your glasses must be so heavily tinted they are entirely opaque!
Gordon Steadman
02-08-2015, 10:01
The irony of you last sentence could hardly be more profound. Honestly, there is looking at things through rose tinted spectacles and then there is the Oldpinkman marketing spiel - your glasses must be so heavily tinted they are entirely opaque!
Loads of people can have agendas. There are folk out there with personal interest in LP12 products for example. Those of us who are regulars know this and sift accordingly. However, anyone who takes forum issues as gospel is going to come unstuck.
It is only a discussion group and unless someone has a commercial interest in what they are discussing, it's just chat after all.
OK. I get the trade account thing, and agree £50 is buttons. Even though, as noted previously a hifi forum is of negligible value commercially to a business like Arthurs.
It's not stopped him paying it in the past though, so he must see some value in it.
I think you underestimate the power of Google search engines and the influence of forums, such as AoS, on the content... Therefore, it's not just about gaining the attention of the AoS membership, but potentially rather many thousands of others outside of that, on the WWW.
You need a new intermediate category for "friends of trade".
Excellent idea. What percentage of the £50 that traders pay would you suggest should be chargeable to 'friends of the trade'? ;)
After all, their 'natural exuberance' for discussing their friends' products could very likely translate into sales of said products, due to the subsequent Internet exposure generated. Do you think £25 (half price) would be fair?
Marco.
how about enemies of the trade...its something id be interested in doing....sabbotaging for a price. ...could be a nice earner :doh:
Ha - I like it! :D
Marco.
Loads of people can have agendas. There are folk out there with personal interest in LP12 products for example. Those of us who are regulars know this and sift accordingly. However, anyone who takes forum issues as gospel is going to come unstuck.
It is only a discussion group and unless someone has a commercial interest in what they are discussing, it's just chat after all.
Well, we have someone (oldpinkman) saying that 95% of PT turntables were problem-free and someone else (DLSR) saying that as a dealer he found large numbers of PT turntables needed to be returned because they were knackered in one way or another. They can't both be right.
Personally my only experience of a PT (as a 'loaner' item) made me think that I wouldn't want to own one.
Gordon Steadman
02-08-2015, 10:39
Well, we have someone (oldpinkman) saying that 95% of PT turntables were problem-free and someone else (DLSR) saying that as a dealer he found large numbers of PT turntables needed to be returned because they were knackered in one way or another. They can't both be right.
Personally my only experience of a PT (as a 'loaner' item) made me think that I wouldn't want to own one.
That's the only bit that really matters. I have heard an LP12 and wasn't impressed. I've never heard a PT. Others find different obviously.
........
I am friends with Andrew Jones, Owen, and Andrew Watson as well, and if AW comes round with a pair of his LS35a bass extenders for me to play with for a few days, my natural instinct would be to talk about it.
......
:cool:
If you agree Marcos £25 for each friends response to your suggestion that would be at least £75 until you reveal any more friends who are trade that you feel compelled to chat about.
How about some comments on styluses instead of your attempts to argue your case - far more interesting
Ducatiist
02-08-2015, 22:59
Having read this thread, I do think it's rather sad!
Pink Triangle were a very small bunch of guys "having a go" at making hifi.
I think their ethos, in the day, was all about an ideal that was far above music and it's reproduction!
If anyone cares to look into the background of the name, and the idea that each turntable was going to be named after a holocaust victim, I really think that Arthur was trying to make a statement!
I still think Arthur is making a statement by being such an individual, in his ideas and his designs!
I don't have any affiliation with pink triangle or funk firm, other than I have a pair of pink triangle speakers and a funk firm tone arm. I've found Arthur very approachable (on the phone) and his operation seems pretty chaotic, having waited several weeks for an arm spacer, only to be told my order had fallen down the back of a cabinet!
Despite all of this, I admire the small British manufacturer, still having a go and recently coming good!
I'm sure my opinion is not in line with lots of people, but I do feel that Arthur is a good guy, who cares about people and wants to give the best to audio!
I really don't have anything to do with Arthur, Pink Triangle or Funk Firm, but I do have a respect for history and the ideals that Arthur and his friends wanted to remember!
I'll probably get banned for this post, but hey ho, I just don't like the small guy getting battered!
Stu
Banned? You must be joking, Stu - I thoroughly agree with your sentiments! :)
Marco.
Ducatiist
02-08-2015, 23:12
Thanks Grant and Marco,
I think I've had a little too much red, when reading this thread!
I can see where the problem is re over hyping a product by someone who admits is an ex MD!
I do think that Pink triangle tried their hardest and that the Funk Firm are now doing a great job!
Sorry if I was a bit off the mark!
Stu
Spectral Morn
03-08-2015, 00:52
Having read this thread, I do think it's rather sad!
Pink Triangle were a very small bunch of guys "having a go" at making hifi.
I think their ethos, in the day, was all about an ideal that was far above music and it's reproduction!
If anyone cares to look into the background of the name, and the idea that each turntable was going to be named after a holocaust victim, I really think that Arthur was trying to make a statement!
I still think Arthur is making a statement by being such an individual, in his ideas and his designs!
I don't have any affiliation with pink triangle or funk firm, other than I have a pair of pink triangle speakers and a funk firm tone arm. I've found Arthur very approachable (on the phone) and his operation seems pretty chaotic, having waited several weeks for an arm spacer, only to be told my order had fallen down the back of a cabinet!
Despite all of this, I admire the small British manufacturer, still having a go and recently coming good!
I'm sure my opinion is not in line with lots of people, but I do feel that Arthur is a good guy, who cares about people and wants to give the best to audio!
I really don't have anything to do with Arthur, Pink Triangle or Funk Firm, but I do have a respect for history and the ideals that Arthur and his friends wanted to remember!
I'll probably get banned for this post, but hey ho, I just don't like the small guy getting battered!
Stu
All of which is true but Richard sought to rewrite history and fact and by dismissing several folks valid direct experiences, which he still is by holding onto stating these comments are urban myth.
No one is battering the 'small guy' as you put it but simply stating the fact that early Pink Triangle turntables lacked the fit and finish that they should have had. Later Pink Triangle turntables were much better made.
Richard also stated Arthur was removing me from his Christmas card list - never had a card from him and we are not friends, though I know him a bit from many years ago. Here is the thing, regardless of knowing folks or even being friends does that require one to white wash past things that were less than ideal? I don't think so. Facts are facts whether we like them or not and acknowledging failing is how we improve.
My agenda here is simple, I strongly dislike attempts to rewrite history or paper over past issues. Richard says what does it matter, Pink are long gone and that is true but he attempted to dismiss the accurate recounting of poor fit and finish of early PT turntables, which is why I commented. This isn't urban myth but fact, so by attempting to do so he was in my view calling into doubt - as have a few others such as Audio Advent - that what those folks said first, then what I said, and what HiFi Dave said were lies. They were not.
I have tried hard to keep it clear that it's early PT I was referring too as I feel the other comments were as well. Anyway I standby by what I said.
Oldpinkman
03-08-2015, 07:38
Thank you Stuart, Sam and Graham for a bit of support. It is a pity that those who aren't interested in MY project to improve MY early Pink Triangle, and MY satisfaction that a classic turntable might be relaunched so others can enjoy it, can't read another thread instead of enjoying the sort of negativity orgy that gets HiFi forums a bad name. In future, recognising few are interested and most are hostile, I will keep quiet about my HiFi and my enjoyment of it.
'S OK. I've got an exceptionally nice record player today I can enjoy listening to and you can't listen to it! :ner:
The turntable is an early PT1 serial number PT2577 from late summer 1985 - presumably I also had PT2576 and sent that one back, but I don't remember it. PT were shipping 20+ of these a week based on that serial number and date, and even though more than half of them were returned as faulty, still managed to run a business which went on to launch Export LPT and Anni, DaCapo, Ordinal , Cardinal, Ventrical... Obviously a 50% reject rate is the way to run a business. (Unless you only hear dissing from those who had bad ones). Nah - must be 50% of them came back. Quietly, and in secret, when I wasn't in the factory.
I still have a lovely record player :ner:
Richard your attempt to play the wide-eyed innocent are not going to wash. Look at this quote below from your opening post - this is about 50% of the total post - and tell me it is not pure advertorial for Funk Firm. Are there any up and coming Funk products you omitted to mention here? I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and you know that I'm not usually that bothered about this sort of thing but come on! This is practically a press release:
I would like to claim mine was the first fitted, but in fact he fitted one in his own Anniversary - retreived from the back of the loft, cleaned up, fitted with his K-Drive power supply, controller and motor, and the new Spin bearing for PT, and FX3. And he has plans to drop the Vector turntable and complete the range with a relaunch PT and a very very special new Anniversary, complete with K Drive, Vector, Spin and a new suspension (and a very snazzy mirror top-plate). It's only taken me 2 years - probably retail price £10000 for the Anni, with the PT nearer to Sapphire / Vector prices. Together with the F1 arm relaunched Anni will be a state of the art reference turntable (and comfortably out of my price range). Hopefully my poor mans version will run it close - albeit without being quite as pretty.
I'll probably get banned for this post, but hey ho, I just don't like the small guy getting battered!
Stu
You'll be banned for using too many exclamation marks!
You'll be banned for using too many exclamation marks!
Starting next month we'll be having a clampdown on mis-used apostrophes, too....
Stratmangler
03-08-2015, 08:03
Are we going to have a clampdown on misspelling the word misused too? :)
Richard your attempt to play the wide-eyed innocent are not going to wash.
You know, to me this whole shilling agenda has become quite ironic.
Many moons ago when I was still in awe of the LP12 and was playing with affordable alternatives, I had some very good experiences with a used Pink Triangle turntable.
More recently, I used a Funk F5 arm during my Technics trials.
Until I found this forum I didn't have any particular aversion to their products at all.
-
However, after 6 months of reading Pinkman's posts I am extremely unlikely to bother to even look at their products ever again...
That ably demonstrates how continually eulogising about something can be totally counterproductive.
Marco.
Yeah. There's no way I'm buying a Technics turntable or Tannoy speakers, for a kick-off!
Yeah. There's no way I'm buying a Technics turntable or Tannoy speakers, for a kick-off!
Or a Raspberry Pi.... :-)
Why exactly, if they're genuinely good products? Would you ignorantly shun something that your own ears might judge as superb, simply not to do what others have done? For me, that's just daft.
Incidentally, that's aimed at you, Graeme, not Joe.
Marco.
That ably demonstrates how continually eulogising about something can be totally counterproductive.
Marco.
You said it here.
Yes, but that doesn't warrant ignorantly dismissing something that, if YOU tried it, YOU might really like. I don't form immovable negative opinions on kit I have heard because I think the owners are 'over-zealous' in their appraisal of it.
Always best to keep an open mind, I think! :)
Marco.
Are we going to have a clampdown on misspelling the word misused too? :)
That's pencilled in for September so I'm getting mine in whilst I can....
Gordon Steadman
03-08-2015, 11:41
Yeah. There's no way I'm buying a Technics turntable or Tannoy speakers, for a kick-off!
I agree but that is because I have heard both and they don't do what I require from my hi-fi. The only effect that the forum might have is to make me try something to see what I may or may not be missing.
I agree but that is because I have heard both and they don't do what I require from my hi-fi. The only effect that the forum might have is to make me try something to see what I may or may not be missing.
I was only joking (well, about the Tannoys anyway. I'm keeping the Roksan, come what may). I've been mulling over 'new' speakers for some time now, and auditioned a bunch last autumn. The trouble is, there's so many to choose from, and so much is down to room/speaker integration that a home audition is essential, but a PITA to organise. So I'm still mulling, but Tannoys will probably be on the shortlist.
Gordon Steadman
03-08-2015, 11:50
I was only joking (well, about the Tannoys anyway. I'm keeping the Roksan, come what may). I've been mulling over 'new' speakers for some time now, and auditioned a bunch last autumn. The trouble is, there's so many to choose from, and so much is down to room/speaker integration that a home audition is essential, but a PITA to organise. So I'm still mulling, but Tannoys will probably be on the shortlist.
Get Quad 57s...the only speakers worth having:cool:
Get Quad 57s...the only speakers worth having:cool:
Definitely a possibility, now we're child and pet-free. A Quad 57 was the first hifi speaker I heard. Truly jaw-dropping stuff at the time.
I agree but that is because I have heard both and they don't do what I require from my hi-fi. The only effect that the forum might have is to make me try something to see what I may or may not be missing.
That's the sensible position to adopt, even though I bet you've only heard a stock Technics, which is but a pale imitation of what it can become with some 'judicious tinkering'! ;)
Quite simply, you cannot form a credible/authoritative opinion on the efficacy/performance of any piece of hi-fi equipment, unless you've listened to it in your own system.
In terms of folks on forums 'raving' about how good something is, well, all that makes me do is try it and see what all the fuss is about! Sometimes, that way, you can discover rather beneficial things, as indeed I did with the Tisbury passive unit and RPi, both of which I'd never have considered had they not been 'raved about' here and elsewhere.
However, to simply take umbrage towards a particular piece of kit because it appears as a forum 'flavour of the month', when you have no personal experience of said item(s), for me, is stupidity of the highest order, as such ignorance could lead to you seriously shooting yourself in the foot.
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
03-08-2015, 12:06
Definitely a possibility, now we're child and pet-free. A Quad 57 was the first hifi speaker I heard. Truly jaw-dropping stuff at the time.
We have four cats and the Quads are cat magnetic:(. I've removed the fabric covers and we are back to metal as the claws can't rip it. Still have to repaint occasionally but easily done. In our room there is adequate bass and the rest is sublime of course.
My jaw still drops from time to time but it might just be old age.
Richard your attempt to play the wide-eyed innocent are not going to wash. Look at this quote below from your opening post - this is about 50% of the total post - and tell me it is not pure advertorial for Funk Firm. Are there any up and coming Funk products you omitted to mention here? I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and you know that I'm not usually that bothered about this sort of thing but come on! This is practically a press release:
I would like to claim mine was the first fitted, but in fact he fitted one in his own Anniversary - retreived from the back of the loft, cleaned up, fitted with his K-Drive power supply, controller and motor, and the new Spin bearing for PT, and FX3. And he has plans to drop the Vector turntable and complete the range with a relaunch PT and a very very special new Anniversary, complete with K Drive, Vector, Spin and a new suspension (and a very snazzy mirror top-plate). It's only taken me 2 years - probably retail price £10000 for the Anni, with the PT nearer to Sapphire / Vector prices. Together with the F1 arm relaunched Anni will be a state of the art reference turntable (and comfortably out of my price range). Hopefully my poor mans version will run it close - albeit without being quite as pretty.
When I read the OP it sounded like all shill to me. I'm sick of it on forums and why I mostly stay away nowadays. If I was Arthur, I wouldn't ever talk about my upcoming product releases again to Oldpinkman for fear they would immediately be reported on the forums. Unless of course AK is testing the water by the back door and these product leaks are somehow authorised by AK. Given the OP and AK are friends and are former business associates it does make me feel a bit cynical.
We have four cats and the Quads are cat magnetic:(. I've removed the fabric covers and we are back to metal as the claws can't rip it. Still have to repaint occasionally but easily done. In our room there is adequate bass and the rest is sublime of course.
My jaw still drops from time to time but it might just be old age.
used to have a moggy. best of chums we were. she went near one of my speakers once:eyebrows:
oh, and a bit of feedback for AK when you report back Oldpinkman, he'll need to make his new Anni considerably better than the old one if he wants 10K for it. At the high end the original Anni is outclassed nowadays. Compared to a full on modern LP12, sure the original Anni still would stand toe to toe, but the LP12 is way overpriced for the SQ on offer. Nicely made though eh?
No, 10K means it goes up against Brinkmann and TW Acustic and the rest of the high mass brigade and despite being a PT owner myself for 25 years, 10 of which where with the Anni, my TW Acustic Raven AC3 saw off my Anni easily and was an utter eye opener for me. The game has moved on.
The other issue with bouncy belt drives that is not talked about, especially on the Anni which is most floppy, is that the platter is never level if you play vinyl from different eras. Going from a mid 80's 100g slice to a modern 180g pressing is a real issue on the Anni and can easily be heard with channel imbalance when using high resolution cartridges. Its why I slowly stopped using my Anni and switched to an Obsidian SP10 for a while. It was never really an issue back in the day when all my vinyl came from the 80's and early 90's but it really is now. The SP10/SH-B3 actually stood toe to toe with the Anni overall. Each has a strength and a weakness but I used the SP10 more simply because it was much much easier to use. Once I didn't have tp deal with the Anni's platter bouncing around uncontrollably... and 5K's worth of arm and cartridge with it(!), it was hard to go back. Nah, the Anni isn't especially nice to use in comparison. So I decided high mass designs should be looked at and then my ears happened on the Raven.
A 1500 quid Anni in good nick on the used market still makes sense though.
Gordon Steadman
03-08-2015, 12:43
used to have a moggy. best of chums we were. she went near one of my speakers once:eyebrows:
It might just be a matter of priorities:)
The cats are members of the family. The Quads are mere possessions:eek:
See got a rollocking and never went near again. had her 21 years and she died lying beside me. Never had a live mouse in the house either
Gordon Steadman
03-08-2015, 12:55
See got a rollocking and never went near again. had her 21 years and she died lying beside me. Never had a live mouse in the house either
We get a procession of dead ones. Nary a bird just rodents. Our oldest cat is 20 in September. We've been saying that he won't last the week for about six months now so he might just make 21:)
Hi Carl,
No, 10K means it goes up against Brinkmann and TW Acustic and the rest of the high mass brigade and despite being a PT owner myself for 25 years, 10 of which where with the Anni, my TW Acustic Raven AC3 saw off my Anni easily and was an utter eye opener for me. The game has moved on.
Most interesting. As far as belt-drive T/Ts go, I've always rated the better German ones, such as the TW, as to my ears, they tend to sound less like a 'turntable done badly', as some other belt-drives do - and that's probably because T/Ts are rather mechanical beasts, so engineering quality matters!
For me, the goal of any turntable is to sound as 'effortless' and 'unflappable' musically, as the best digital music devices, so that means 'disappearing' from the equation as much as possible, leaving the music to speak for itself.
When I can 'hear' the sonic signature of the turntable, over the music, the pitch wavering, or the sound breaking up, due to vinyl-related noise/distortion, that's what really turns me off. That's why I've gone the D/D turntable route, as in my experience, when done well, they essentially sound as stable [which for me is very important] and musically rewarding as the very best CD players :)
Marco.
Yep, and thats what I loved about the SP10/SH-B3, unflappability describes it well! It really gave a solid presentation and got right out of the way for the arm/cart and LP to make music. Nice big bold soundstage, right scale too (which is surprisingly rare) but what it lacked was ultimate resolution and that was the strength of the Anni. What I got with the Raven was something that was better than both. It has a rock sold presentation and superb timing but it is also astonishingly detailed with the right arm and cart. It's also a practical device for crazy audiophiles like us as it allows several tonearms to be mounted at once facilitating very easy arm and cart comparisons, or for different flavours for different days. I think the ability to mount a few tonearms at once is essential at this level to allow you to really hone in, via back to back comparisons, on the right tonearm(s) and cart(s) the work best with the TT, system and your ears.
Hi Carl,
Most interesting. As far as belt-drive T/Ts go, I've always rated the better German ones, such as the TW, as to my ears, they tend to sound less like a 'turntable done badly', as some other belt-drives do - and that's probably because T/Ts are rather mechanical beasts, so engineering quality matters!
For me, the goal of any turntable is to sound as 'effortless' and 'unflappable' musically, as the best digital music devices, so that means 'disappearing' from the equation as much as possible, leaving the music to speak for itself.
When I can 'hear' the sonic signature of the turntable, over the music, the pitch wavering, or the sound breaking up, due to vinyl-related noise/distortion, that's what really turns me off. That's why I've gone the D/D turntable route, as in my experience, when done well, they essentially sound as stable [which for me is very important], and musically rewarding as the very best CD players :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
03-08-2015, 13:48
Oh gawd, are you lot still talking about turntables? I thought we had gotten onto interesting subjects. Miaow etc.
Audio Advent
03-08-2015, 14:05
The difference, in terms of the RPi, is that there has been no deliberate 'promotion', as such; simply justified and accumulated user enthusiasm, carried out by said users sharing their experiences with others, for no personal gain. Some see Richard's motives, by continually 'promoting' Funk, rather differently - and *that* is the problem...
Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree and also the people who have complained will have to agree to disagree with me. But what you've said about RPi is exactly how Old Pink Thing's posts come across to me as a lay person.
That his enthusiasm is suplemented by knowing the old designer from the 80s and the enthusiasm comes from discovering new things he is exposed to, is no different to new discoveries with RPi or new discoveries with any other gear.
Audio Advent
03-08-2015, 14:09
used to have a moggy. best of chums we were. she went near one of my speakers once:eyebrows:
Let me guess. She heard your taste in music and decided to live next door?
Audio Advent
03-08-2015, 14:12
See got a rollocking and never went near again. had her 21 years and she died lying beside me. Never had a live mouse in the house either
Oh... :( That's both sad and beautiful. Hope my 18 year old cat is by my side at the time.
Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree and also the people who have complained will have to agree to disagree with me. But what you've said about RPi is exactly how Old Pink Thing's posts come across to me as a lay person.
That his enthusiasm is suplemented by knowing the old designer from the 80s and the enthusiasm comes from discovering new things he is exposed to, is no different to new discoveries with RPi or new discoveries with any other gear.
Well, in order to avoid a pointless circular argument, we'll just have to agree to disagree. You'll have noticed that I'm far from alone here in my views. Richard would do well to take on board some of the constructive comments made here, and act upon them, as it will only serve to make his time on AoS more productive and enjoyable :)
Marco.
Audio Advent
03-08-2015, 14:24
In terms of folks on forums 'raving' about how good something is, well, all that makes me do is try it and see what all the fuss is about! Sometimes, that way, you can discover rather beneficial things, as indeed I did with the Tisbury passive unit and RPi, both of which I'd never have considered had they not been 'raved about' here and elsewhere.
However, to simply take umbrage towards a particular piece of kit because it appears as a forum 'flavour of the month', when you have no personal experience of said item(s), for me, is stupidity of the highest order, as such ignorance could lead to you seriously shooting yourself in the foot.
Marco.
So it isn't counter-productive? For me, hearing people go on and on has both effects. Interested as to why, then boredom of the idea sets in as it gets asigned to a lower and lower position on my list of things to try. Over exposure. But that's my problem and that shouldn't stop people from doing so of course!
As another thought on the OP, the Spin isn't even available for Pink Triangle products, and knowing Funk Firm and their time-frame for development it won't ever be available for the PT. So this whole thread is about something which is not commercially available at all and yet traders have taken issue with it.. Simply taking umbridge because posts are from one particular poster about one brand seems similarly daft.
In that context, this is a thread about how much difference the bearing can make over other upgrades which to me is very interesting and I wouldn't have had that valuable bit of information/opinion if Richard hadn't decided to talk about it publically. That to me seems to be the absolute essence of Art of Sound, pin pointing areas which improve replay the most.
Audio Advent
03-08-2015, 14:25
Apologies - wrote that before reading your post. Don't want to keep the circular arguement going. Is my last about it I promise.
Re the Spin; just had a flashback to those videos they used to show in Woolworths with someone using a 'miracle' knife (or whatever) and the voiceover saying over the closing credits: 'And remember, this super whizzo device can only be bought directly from us; it's not available in any shops!'
As you were.
Spin for the SL1200 is available to buy.
One UK dealer has them in stock according to their website.
The construction is the same as the one Richard has, but obviously they are TT specific.
Like the much-missed Ronco: 'The perfect Christmas gift'
They used to sell a device that measured your ceiling. Those were the days.
Later Pink Triangle decks were acceptably finished and if not treated badly by ham fisted owners (!), could sound very close to the master tape on a suitable disc (usually with an SME V arm, which really worked well here). The deck just didn't have much if any character at all, and this before all the vector 'stuff' was added on.
Marco, I mean this with respect, but you don't need to look at the nicely finished German belt drives you know for world-class sonics. The Raven started life as a 'Heavy-spec' Space-Deck competitor, but for whatever reason, the retail prices have shot up and the thing now competes with a Hyper-Space at least, if not the Dias, which really is a world class record player IMO. I was amazed that HFW tested the hyper-Space with an SME IV or V IIRC and the sound was musical but perhaps a bit too 'nice' FFS. WHO in their right mind would put a big SME on one of these when NAS make a stunningly good arm of their own which matches the deck better? Reminds me of Rega arms on Techies - NOT a great match I think, although a wooden arm-board might match them better.
You know, as time's going on and the contempt (familiarity etc...) is fading, I may well end up trying a fruitbox again. The Tiger Paw top plate and more modern semi-affordable sub chassis' out there (like the Sole etc.) may turn the deck into something more serious than the way over-priced Linn-made offerings today.
That bloody technics thingy is getting beyond a joke now. Prices of tatty ex-club models are starting to rise and good ones now cost the thick end of a grand or so I believe.
Later Pink Triangle decks were acceptably finished and if not treated badly by ham fisted owners (!), could sound very close to the master tape on a suitable disc (usually with an SME V arm, which really worked well here). The deck just didn't have much if any character at all, and this before all the vector 'stuff' was added on.
Marco, I mean this with respect, but you don't need to look at the nicely finished German belt drives you know for world-class sonics. The Raven started life as a 'Heavy-spec' Space-Deck competitor, but for whatever reason, the retail prices have shot up and the thing now competes with a Hyper-Space at least, if not the Dias, which really is a world class record player IMO. I was amazed that HFW tested the hyper-Space with an SME IV or V IIRC and the sound was musical but perhaps a bit too 'nice' FFS. WHO in their right mind would put a big SME on one of these when NAS make a stunningly good arm of their own which matches the deck better? Reminds me of Rega arms on Techies - NOT a great match I think, although a wooden arm-board might match them better.
You know, as time's going on and the contempt (familiarity etc...) is fading, I may well end up trying a fruitbox again. The Tiger Paw top plate and more modern semi-affordable sub chassis' out there (like the Sole etc.) may turn the deck into something more serious than the way over-priced Linn-made offerings today.
That bloody technics thingy is getting beyond a joke now. Prices of tatty ex-club models are starting to rise and good ones now cost the thick end of a grand or so I believe.
What have I done? http://i.imgur.com/gJyQcqP.gif
Better just get an old Thorens... sweet enough for me;)
Ducatiist
03-08-2015, 16:50
You'll be banned for using too many exclamation marks!
I didn't realise I used so many!!!!
I'll try and curb it;)
Yep, and thats what I loved about the SP10/SH-B3, unflappability describes it well! It really gave a solid presentation and got right out of the way for the arm/cart and LP to make music. Nice big bold soundstage, right scale too (which is surprisingly rare) but what it lacked was ultimate resolution and that was the strength of the Anni.
Carl, I am rather surprised to read this! did you arrive at this conclusion having utilised the exact same Tonearm and Cart with both decks?
Yep, and thats what I loved about the SP10/SH-B3, unflappability describes it well! It really gave a solid presentation and got right out of the way for the arm/cart and LP to make music. Nice big bold soundstage, right scale too (which is surprisingly rare) but what it lacked was ultimate resolution and that was the strength of the Anni. What I got with the Raven was something that was better than both.
Yup, I don't doubt it, although I've found that's the trade-off between good belt-drives and good D/Ds. In general, the former will always offer just that bit more detail, but at the expense of overall 'heft' and authority - and of course pitch stability.
However, a judiciously modded SL-1210 gets closer, in that respect to to belt-drives, than any SP10 I've heard, and I put that down to (in my instance) how well Paul Hynes has 'sussed' the PSU section, with individual regulation of key parts of the circuit, etc. That really moves the Techy on in a big way, making it so stable and quiet on playback, thus allowing it to dig really deep into recordings and reveal masses of music information.
If the Raven has given you the best of both worlds, then it really must me a fab T/T! :)
Marco.
Marco, Your 'promotional' commentary regarding upgrade aftermarket modifications for the SL-1210 Viz. PH power supply in this instance, unsolicited in the context of my query, differs fundamentally from likewise interjected PT comment from OldPinkman ?
It's not "promotional commentary", Roger, but merely thread drift, as often occurs on AoS, and nothing like how Richard can sometimes go OTT, with Funk. I was simply responding to Carl's earlier post. Thread topics aren't always rigidly stuck to here, as we like discussions to flow.
Your question to Carl, on post #116, wasn't exactly 100% on-topic either, as it was referring to an SP10! ;)
Marco.
Audio Advent
04-08-2015, 17:12
You know, as time's going on and the contempt (familiarity etc...) is fading, I may well end up trying a fruitbox again. The Tiger Paw top plate and more modern semi-affordable sub chassis' out there (like the Sole etc.) may turn the deck into something more serious than the way over-priced Linn-made offerings today.
There's a company out there who used to provide some other top-plate mods for the LP12 that got great reviews.. umm, Firm Pink Funk Triangle or something? My memory isn't so good. :lol:
I'm surprised not to see more carbon fibre or composite materials used in TTs or upgrades these days. Seems with companies like Cetech that it was a minority fad and has since been forgotten about. Perhaps it's just too high-tech for the usual home-grown TT tinkerers who then put their upgrades to market.
Audio Advent
04-08-2015, 17:14
Re the Spin; just had a flashback to those videos they used to show in Woolworths with someone using a 'miracle' knife (or whatever) and the voiceover saying over the closing credits: 'And remember, this super whizzo device can only be bought directly from us; it's not available in any shops!'
As you were.
They've not gone away - I see them regularly in Robert Dyas. Take my popcorn down to the shop each week for the new one..
I've generally always preferred any PT or Funk T/T to any LP12 I've heard - and every time I've heard a Funk-modified LP12, it's spanked the pants off of anything all-Linn, from Linn! :exactly:
Marco.
Hi Dave,
Marco, I mean this with respect, but you don't need to look at the nicely finished German belt drives you know for world-class sonics. The Raven started life as a 'Heavy-spec' Space-Deck competitor, but for whatever reason, the retail prices have shot up and the thing now competes with a Hyper-Space at least, if not the Dias, which really is a world class record player IMO.
Sure. I rate NAS T/Ts, but I prefer German belt-drives, such as the TW, for looks. Also, overall, I'm more of a fan of German engineering at its best, hence my car choices! ;)
Marco.
Stratmangler
04-08-2015, 17:32
I've generally always preferred any PT or Funk T/T to any LP12 I've heard - and every time I've heard a Funk-modified LP12, it's spanked the pants off anything all-Linn, from Linn! :exactly:
Marco.
I've only heard a Funk modified LP12 once, and it sounded awful playing Suzanne Vega's "Solitude Standing" - it couldn't hold pitch or time.
It sounded like there was some kind of problem with it, but I didn't wait around to see if it was fixed .....
I hope that what I heard was a one off :)
I suspect it was, Chris, as what you're describing bares no resemblance to what I've enjoyed from a Funk-modded LP12, although you can't expect Techy levels of pitch stability. At the end of the day, there's still an 'elastic band' at the helm! ;)
Marco.
Stratmangler
04-08-2015, 17:52
I suspect it was, Chris, as what you're describing bares no resemblance to what I've enjoyed from a Funk-modded LP12, although you can't expect Techy levels of pitch stability. At the end of the day, there's still an 'elastic band' at the helm! ;)
Marco.
Elastic bands can do a decent enough job.
My Thorens TD125MkII sounded great, and I don't recollect it having too many problems with keeping pitch and time.
Let's be honest though, the only reasons belt drive took off in the first place (because at one time idler was the default method of turning a platter) was because (a) the rubber band provided a cheap way of isolating and countering motor noise making it through the stylus, and (b) it was possible to build a rubber band driven turntable on your kitchen table.
Yes, that's probably true. However, all said and done, it's whatever floats your boat.
The problem for me with belt-drive T/Ts is that, to my ears, it takes the high-mass 'string drive' approach (or similar) to overcome the pitch stability issues related to vinyl replay, and as such it's no coincidence that the biggest, beefiest 'belters' sound very close to good direct-drives, by having that rock-solid and 'unflappable' sound, like CD at its best, along with the 'heft' and authority of D/D, and particularly idler T/Ts.
That's what I like!
Unfortunately, you're usually also left with a turntable that's rather bigger, heavier [especially when huge, high-mass platters are used] and bulkier, and so takes up more space, than something like an SL-1210, which when judiciously modified essentially does the same thing, but has a much smaller, more 'rack-friendly' footprint - and for me that is also a consideration.
However, some folk don't like the aforementioned type of 'accuracy' from vinyl, and prefer a more 'romantic' or euphonic presentation, where the sonic signature of the T/T significantly imbues itself on the music, to create some false notion of 'musicality' or 'tune playing ability', 'boogie factor' [or some other nonsense that flat-earthers dribble over], a la vintage LP12.
It's all bollocks though, because what they're hearing is the 'sound' of the T/T creating ear-pleasing, very obvious (to those who like it) coloration. The fact is, that shit shouldn't be there and isn't part of the music!
These days LP12s, however, sound much more 'digital', as their euphonic coloration of yesteryear has, over decades, been gradually stripped away, and for me that can only be a good thing, if high-fidelity/resolution from vinyl replay is the goal.
Me? I just want to hear exactly what's on my records, not the 'sound' of the turntable, and in that respect, D/D or idler (done well) serves my needs best :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
04-08-2015, 18:13
Elastic bands can do a decent enough job.
My Thorens TD125MkII sounded great, and I don't recollect it having too many problems with keeping pitch and time.
Let's be honest though, the only reasons belt drive took off in the first place (because at one time idler was the default method of turning a platter) was because (a) the rubber band provided a cheap way of isolating and countering motor noise making it through the stylus, and (b) it was possible to build a rubber band driven turntable on your kitchen table.
Yup...and I did. It's still going strong after twenty years (with mods) and keeps very strict time ta very much.
I have three decks in regular use here. One is an idler, one a direct drive and the belter. The difference between them is the sound. They all keep good time.
Hi Dave,
Sure. I rate NAS T/Ts, but I prefer German belt-drives, such as the TW, for looks. Also, overall, I'm more of a fan of German engineering at its best, hence my car choices! ;)
Marco.
Remember, I own three Duals! Why the third, I don't know, but I now have an idler Dual, a direct drive Dual and a very well designed belt driven Dual, which offers very little 'belt recoil' on the platter. All three are boringly efficient and reproduce music very well for me :)
Gordon Steadman
04-08-2015, 18:24
Remember, I own three Duals! Why the third, I don't know, but I now have an idler Dual, a direct drive Dual and a very well designed belt driven Dual, which offers very little 'belt recoil' on the platter. All three are boringly efficient and reproduce music very well for me :)
Because nobody should have to put up with only one TT. My idler is a Dual (I ignore the fact that I have an SP25) as you may remember. It is my second choice deck.
Remember, I own three Duals! Why the third, I don't know, but I now have an idler Dual, a direct drive Dual and a very well designed belt driven Dual, which offers very little 'belt recoil' on the platter. All three are boringly efficient and reproduce music very well for me :)
Nice one. The point is, I don't get a 'warm glow' because equipment is British, which I suppose is understandable if you yourself are. Being Italian, that 'patriotic' stuff passes me by. For me, all that matters is if something is fundamentally good, and in that respect, the kit I use can come from Japan, Germany, Turkey or Timbuktu!
Marco.
They all keep good time.
Timing and pitch stability (although in some ways related) are different animals ;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
04-08-2015, 18:45
Timing and pitch stability (although in some ways related) are different animals ;)
Marco.
There is no pitch disturbance that I have been aware of.
There are some good turntables made in Timbuktu. :eyebrows:
Lol - such as? :)
Marco.
Oh, how about the Mali Advanced Acoustic Design MAAD-1000. It uses a non-resonant baked mud platter, 30cm thick and is powered by a camel harnessed to the platter by a Tuareg-made leather belt.
Oh, how about the Mali Advanced Acoustic Design MAAD-1000. It uses a non-resonant baked mud platter, 30cm thick and is powered by a camel harnessed to the platter by a Tuareg-made leather belt.
they tried a ewe, but it kept speeding up as Marco hove into view;)
:lolsign:
They're not as shy here in Wales! :D
Marco.
Oldpinkman
06-08-2015, 14:26
My original post was modified over 3 days ago - but the thread drift carried on unabated
I PM'd Sam that it was pointless posting here given the hostility, but I would brief him privately if he was interested. He replied with a reference to the Vinyl Engine thread - which was actually the thread I first talked to Arthur about and first kicked off "project pimp PT" http://www.vinylengine.com/pink-triangle-pt-too.shtml
So it makes sense I will post further information on that forum instead, and the purpose of this post is just to direct the attention of anyone interested to that site for more information in future. My plan is to go through the modifications suggested on that site, and compare them with the real Anniversary ideas, and then pick how to take my own unit forwards
One final interesting point that arose out of a question Sam asked (the Anni used the late PT 1 motor didn't it?). No - Anni used a premotec motor - a very high quality, silent, very low vibration DC motor - which was necessary if you wanted to mount the motor on the sub-chassis. The late PT 1 used a Portescap DC motor which was costly (as expensive as the Anni motor) but relatively a big noisy device which was potted to damp the vibrations.
The original PT 1 - mine - used...
A Technics DC motor! Does that allow me to post about it on the Techipedia?
Maybe in part that is why subjectively I felt my deck was running Anni very close. The original PT 1 was the AK design. Market pressures buggered about with that in PT TOO and Export and Anni was a return to Arthurs roots in the PT 1. A PT 1 with knobs on. But the core to PT 1 was a high quality DC motor - from Technics (along with a quality bearing, acrylic platter and a sub-chassis with a crinkly side - more about why a crinkly sub-chassis when I address project "pimp PT")
Future posts will be on Vinyl Engine. So long and thanks for all the fish :cool:
The hostility was all yours:
I never know where to start with forum experts.
See you around.
Future posts will be on Vinyl Engine. So long and thanks for all the fish
I see no fish
I see no fish
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/index.php
Oldpinkman
06-08-2015, 16:48
I see no fish
It's a quote from the Douglas Adams Hitchhikers guide trilogy. The fourth book I think :D
hifi_dave
06-08-2015, 18:43
Didn't Nelson say that, when he held his telescope to his duff eye ?
Audio Advent
06-08-2015, 20:47
Oh, how about the Mali Advanced Acoustic Design MAAD-1000. It uses a non-resonant baked mud platter, 30cm thick and is powered by a camel harnessed to the platter by a Tuareg-made leather belt.
Is that because people in Mali (perhaps the rest of Africa too?) all live in mud huts and have no modern technology??
Not quite sure what you're saying with that post, joke or not..
Is that because people in Mali (perhaps the rest of Africa too?) all live in mud huts and have no modern technology??
Not quite sure what you're saying with that post, joke or not..
It was meant as a joke Sam. I have visited Mali and seen mosques there built out of baked mud bricks.
Audio Advent
06-08-2015, 20:57
My original post was modified over 3 days ago - but the thread drift carried on unabated
I PM'd Sam that it was pointless posting here given the hostility, but I would brief him privately if he was interested. He replied with a reference to the Vinyl Engine thread - which was actually the thread I first talked to Arthur about and first kicked off "project pimp PT" http://www.vinylengine.com/pink-triangle-pt-too.shtml
So it makes sense I will post further information on that forum instead, and the purpose of this post is just to direct the attention of anyone interested to that site for more information in future. My plan is to go through the modifications suggested on that site, and compare them with the real Anniversary ideas, and then pick how to take my own unit forwards
One final interesting point that arose out of a question Sam asked (the Anni used the late PT 1 motor didn't it?). No - Anni used a premotec motor - a very high quality, silent, very low vibration DC motor - which was necessary if you wanted to mount the motor on the sub-chassis. The late PT 1 used a Portescap DC motor which was costly (as expensive as the Anni motor) but relatively a big noisy device which was potted to damp the vibrations.
The original PT 1 - mine - used...
A Technics DC motor! Does that allow me to post about it on the Techipedia?
Maybe in part that is why subjectively I felt my deck was running Anni very close. The original PT 1 was the AK design. Market pressures buggered about with that in PT TOO and Export and Anni was a return to Arthurs roots in the PT 1. A PT 1 with knobs on. But the core to PT 1 was a high quality DC motor - from Technics (along with a quality bearing, acrylic platter and a sub-chassis with a crinkly side - more about why a crinkly sub-chassis when I address project "pimp PT")
Future posts will be on Vinyl Engine. So long and thanks for all the fish :cool:
Thanks for the heads-up! I'll keep an eye on the pink triangle sub forum. As I mentioned in pm, there's a guy on there who's been making Anniversary part-copies from the other PT decks (making new suspension, creating a solid plinth, mounting the motor on the subchasis). I think there were very late PT1s which used a swiss DC motor which was also used in the Anniversary at some point - I gleaned this info from that forum anyway.
Tinkering and a bit of future DIY is what I'm interested in at the moment with hifi, hence the interest in your mods.
Neil McCauley
10-08-2015, 16:19
how about enemies of the trade...its something id be interested in doing....sabbotaging for a price. ...could be a nice earner :doh:
Love it. Terrific idea.
Neil McCauley
10-08-2015, 16:24
It's a quote from the Douglas Adams Hitchhikers guide trilogy. The fourth book I think :D
I sold him his system inc. Magneplanar Tympani speakers. There was no mention of fish at any point.
Neil McCauley
10-08-2015, 16:27
If you agree Marcos £25 for each friends response to your suggestion that would be at least £75 until you reveal any more friends who are trade that you feel compelled to chat about.
I might be wrong about this, and please correct me if I am but it seems to me you use the word "Trade" – in this context at least – like it's a bad thing. Nothing personal I assure you; merely a passing thought. Thank you.
Incidentally .. AlanS; not Alan Shaw of Harbeth surely?
Oldpinkman
10-08-2015, 16:46
I might be wrong about this, and please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me you use the word "Trade" – in this context at least, like it's a bad thing. Just a thought.
Yes. And I wondered whether if "friends of the trade" are paying for each friend or brand, whether the same would apply to a magazine or a dealer. Is it £50 for every brand stocked? I'm happier not speaking of PT and Funk here, and posting on a forum where people are interested about them rather than resentful of them.
Neil McCauley
10-08-2015, 16:56
I'm happier not speaking of PT and Funk here, and posting on a forum where people are interested about them rather than resentful of them.
Makes sense to me. It's why I never mention the brands I represent as a retailer here other than in the AoS trade section.
Looking through a few AoS threads – just to ease myself back into the 'culture' – it seems to me that there are a few here (but by no means representative} who perceive the trade side of things to be populated by people somewhere between politicians, estate agents, used car salespeople and others of a similar ilk. Consequently they achieve satisfaction through identifying miscreants.
Meanwhile re PT, this thread might be of interest, no so much for the topic itself but indirectly, that I was delinquent in giving it exposure and that the event might have been a journalistic creation on my part. Opinions vary of course but potentially an interesting read for some. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?39916-Homophobia-in-the-UK-audiophile-industry
I've generally always preferred any PT or Funk T/T to any LP12 I've heard - and every time I've heard a Funk-modified LP12, it's spanked the pants off of anything all-Linn, from Linn! :exactly:
Marco.
He floats, the Lord's pure water has rejected him, so he must be hanged. ;) :D
Neil McCauley
10-08-2015, 17:30
Later Pink Triangle decks were acceptably finished and if not treated badly by ham fisted owners (!), could sound very close to the master tape on a suitable disc (usually with an SME V arm, which really worked well here). The deck just didn't have much if any character at all, and this before all the vector 'stuff' was added on.
This is very much in line with my experiences at Subjective Audio. That said, I did receive six PTs in sealed boxes direct from the maker; all without motors. They needed the cash I paid their driver to buy the motors which they sent shortly thereafter. There was, as you might expect, no warning of this.
I sold many dozens of their decks and as best I recall, none was ever traded-in for a different brand. I used my PT/ Breuer / VDH for many years and paid a small fortune for a Brinkmann LaGrange / 10.5 / EMT to attempt a superior sound. In mid and top I was unable to distinguish between the two. It was only in the extreme bass that the Brinkmann showed the PT a clean pair of heels.
Dr Frazer Shaw (Oxford Acoustics turntables) observed this too. His Crystal turntable was built to combine the best sonic qualities of PT (he owned one) and my Brinkmann. Sonically he largely succeeded whereas commercially he didn't.
I owned both the Anniversary and the Oxford Crystal. To me, the PT walked it, not least because the Oxford Crystal had poor acoustic isolation, despite all that mass. The mid-range of the Anniversary was in another league. You could close the gap by using an expensive, and fussy, Air Tangent parallel tracker on the Crystal, but the Pink still sounded better, overall.
So I sold the Oxford Crystal and bought another Anniversary. That's how I know they got better built over time. They needed to.
I rather suspect that the Anniversary was one of the last decks to pay proper attention to the suspension......which is expensive and tricky. So many designers have 'solved' the problem by pretending it doesn't exist. But it does.....
In 40 years of audio (agh) I would say that the Anniversary was perhaps the finest performing component I came across, when priuce is factored in. Next to the Pink, the Apogee range of speakers. Nothing like that is made these days, the economics don't work in these pessimistic, cash strapped, times. It needs bold, risk taking designers; even if they sometimes forget the motors!
Nothing like that is made these days, the economics don't work in these pessimistic, cash strapped, times. It needs bold, risk taking designers; even if they sometimes forget the motors!
Indeed; sadly everything that SME don't have! ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
10-08-2015, 19:44
Oh good. It's not just me. I was starting to wonder if there was something wrong with my hearing :cool:
Good to see you haven't left us, Richard. There's even less reason to go now you've found someone else who's as mad on the Anni as you! :eyebrows: ;)
In all seriousness, compromise is always necessary for any relationship to succeed, and that applies in an online community as much as it does in 'real life'.
Marco.
Idlewithnodrive
10-08-2015, 21:03
The Anni is by FAR the best deck I have ever owned too, by FAR.
The only TT, in fact the only hi-fi component, that I genuinely regret selling.
Idlewithnodrive
10-08-2015, 21:05
In all seriousness, compromise is always necessary for any relationship to succeed, and that applies in an online community as much as it does in 'real life'.
Marco.
The sagest words I have heard from you so far Marco.
Spectral Morn
10-08-2015, 21:21
This is very much in line with my experiences at Subjective Audio. That said, I did receive six PTs in sealed boxes direct from the maker; all without motors. They needed the cash I paid their driver to buy the motors which they sent shortly thereafter. There was, as you might expect, no warning of this.
I sold many dozens of their decks and as best I recall, none was ever traded-in for a different brand. I used my PT/ Breuer / VDH for many years and paid a small fortune for a Brinkmann LaGrange / 10.5 / EMT to attempt a superior sound. In mid and top I was unable to distinguish between the two. It was only in the extreme bass that the Brinkmann showed the PT a clean pair of heels.
Dr Frazer Shaw (Oxford Acoustics turntables) observed this too. His Crystal turntable was built to combine the best sonic qualities of PT (he owned one) and my Brinkmann. Sonically he largely succeeded whereas commercially he didn't.
Always wanted an Oxford Crystal Reference - still hanker after one. A good solid wall shelf and slate plinth would work I think re isolating it or concrete floor - though there was a wall mounted version - though in my view it didn't look as good.
Re turntables around the time of the Anniversary my own view was that the Oracle Delphi mk4 + Turbo psu beat it hands down and re suspension had a well designed and stable one. Its only recently that Oracle have tweaked the suspension and added silicon damping dash pots and adjustable dampers - weirdly somewhat similar to an idea that Project had on one of their early turntables a somewhat obvious homage to the Delphi - the Project 6.
Regards Neil
Cheers, Mike. It's a mantra that I passionately believe in. Anyway, just to pick up on something that Richard said earlier:
I'm happier not speaking of PT and Funk here, and posting on a forum where people are interested about them rather than resentful of them.
It's not PT or Funk that people are "resentful" of, but rather what they see as incessant promoting of those brands, to the point almost of shilling, by someone with an obvious bias. The same would apply to any other company here being continually (and vociferously) championed by one individual. Paskinn's a bit like that with SME.
Lose the 'shilling' of Funk/PT, diversify your posting repertoire, and in turn you'll lose the 'resentment'. Simples! :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-08-2015, 07:55
I sort of get it Marco - but I think it matters more to those who are financially interested. I just don't distinguish "this might be promotion" easily - because its not an easy divide. Given, as I have noted before, that my kit is PT, Funk, Dynavector, PT amp, (PT - Dac), Quad (or PT, or Benchmark) and then PT Ventrical and ESL63's there is a pretty fair chance they are what I am going to talk about most.
I don't filter information from Arthur for shill or not shill. I'll give you 2 examples from an email today in response to a note that the new bearing reduces available arm height adjustment, and questions about the vinyl engine mod thread
1) The bearing for PT is available ex-stock, will be the only bearing available (ie no more originals) and retails for £230 (not sure thats right, but its what the email said) - is that an answer to a question posted earlier on this thread or shilling?
2) The top plate for the PT (first mod suggested was car panel damping under the metal top-plate) is dependant on TT. PT TOO is a git because a metal top plate is effectively bonded into the plinth. Export and PT 1 are removable easily. Moving the motor, mounting on the sub-chassis, or adding vector involve drilling holes in the top plate which is not easy on the originals (particularly, a handful of glass PT1 versions). Solution is a carbon-fibre replacement top-plate drilled as required. Since that is primarily specific to my planned "Pimping", although inevitably AK is wondering whether anyone else is going to want to do the same, that presumably isn't shilling
It's all to much of a headache. As I PM'd you - I just talk about stuff - I don't go in for all this hyper-sensitive politics. So - unless directly asked - I'll follow the trail of this bit of tinkering of mine on vinyl engine. (Except I've mislaid the login :doh:)
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 08:37
The Anni is by FAR the best deck I have ever owned too, by FAR.
The only TT, in fact the only hi-fi component, that I genuinely regret selling.
+1
I sort of get it Marco - but I think it matters more to those who are financially interested. I just don't distinguish "this might be promotion" easily - because its not an easy divide. Given, as I have noted before, that my kit is PT, Funk, Dynavector, PT amp, (PT - Dac), Quad (or PT, or Benchmark) and then PT Ventrical and ESL63's there is a pretty fair chance they are what I am going to talk about most.
I don't filter information from Arthur for shill or not shill. I'll give you 2 examples from an email today in response to a note that the new bearing reduces available arm height adjustment, and questions about the vinyl engine mod thread
1) The bearing for PT is available ex-stock, will be the only bearing available (ie no more originals) and retails for £230 (not sure thats right, but its what the email said) - is that an answer to a question posted earlier on this thread or shilling?
2) The top plate for the PT (first mod suggested was car panel damping under the metal top-plate) is dependant on TT. PT TOO is a git because a metal top plate is effectively bonded into the plinth. Export and PT 1 are removable easily. Moving the motor, mounting on the sub-chassis, or adding vector involve drilling holes in the top plate which is not easy on the originals (particularly, a handful of glass PT1 versions). Solution is a carbon-fibre replacement top-plate drilled as required. Since that is primarily specific to my planned "Pimping", although inevitably AK is wondering whether anyone else is going to want to do the same, that presumably isn't shilling
It's all to much of a headache. As I PM'd you - I just talk about stuff - I don't go in for all this hyper-sensitive politics. So - unless directly asked - I'll follow the trail of this bit of tinkering of mine on vinyl engine. (Except I've mislaid the login :doh:)
Sure, Richard. That's up to you, but it smacks rather of a 'hissy fit'/toys out the pram episode, which is unlike you, as I thought you were made of sterner stuff! :)
I don't see any issue with simply reining in the 'PT/Funk fanboy' image, and talking about Quad, Dynavector, or something else non-Funk/PT specific, for a change. Surely that's not too much to ask? After all, there are a million and one things to discuss in relation to hi-fi and music...!
Remember what your user title says? Clue: it isn't 'Funk Fanboy'..... Try living up to that title!! ;)
Anyway, you know that you're welcome here any time, so I'll leave it up to you to decide when to use the forum or not :cool:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-08-2015, 09:54
You'll be pleased to hear the HiFi isn't immune to the moving to France clear out, so I have some cartridges to talk about. Well - more than talk about - flog.
Technics U205C with brand new Jico stylus
Technics EPC305mc - which I know Arthur would dearly love, but he's always claiming he is broke
Ortofon MC25FL which I need to get round to fitting one more time, just so I can be sure it is in perfect (used) condition
I'll probably hang on to the Goldring 1022 just in case - and as a good "evaluator" (cos you can use the same stylus assembly in prefitted bodies)
But not this week... :)
got a fl myself. very good cart
walpurgis
11-08-2015, 10:10
The EPC-305MC is an old favourite of mine. I used one for many years. Will you sell yours?
You'll be pleased to hear the HiFi isn't immune to the moving to France clear out, so I have some cartridges to talk about. Well - more than talk about - flog.
Technics U205C with brand new Jico stylus
Technics EPC305mc - which I know Arthur would dearly love, but he's always claiming he is broke
Ortofon MC25FL which I need to get round to fitting one more time, just so I can be sure it is in perfect (used) condition
I'll probably hang on to the Goldring 1022 just in case - and as a good "evaluator" (cos you can use the same stylus assembly in prefitted bodies)
But not this week... :)
Excellent. Good luck with the sale, when it happens.
Marco.
This is very much in line with my experiences at Subjective Audio. That said, I did receive six PTs in sealed boxes direct from the maker; all without motors. They needed the cash I paid their driver to buy the motors which they sent shortly thereafter. There was, as you might expect, no warning of this.
I sold many dozens of their decks and as best I recall, none was ever traded-in for a different brand. I used my PT/ Breuer / VDH for many years and paid a small fortune for a Brinkmann LaGrange / 10.5 / EMT to attempt a superior sound. In mid and top I was unable to distinguish between the two. It was only in the extreme bass that the Brinkmann showed the PT a clean pair of heels.
Dr Frazer Shaw (Oxford Acoustics turntables) observed this too. His Crystal turntable was built to combine the best sonic qualities of PT (he owned one) and my Brinkmann. Sonically he largely succeeded whereas commercially he didn't.
Which Breuer arm was that Howard? Was the 'VDH' the Van den Hul modified and 'nuded' EMT TSD?
Regards
Barry
You'll be pleased to hear the HiFi isn't immune to the moving to France clear out, so I have some cartridges to talk about. Well - more than talk about - flog.
Technics U205C with brand new Jico stylus
Technics EPC305mc - which I know Arthur would dearly love, but he's always claiming he is broke
Ortofon MC25FL which I need to get round to fitting one more time, just so I can be sure it is in perfect (used) conditionI'll probably hang on to the Goldring 1022 just in case - and as a good "evaluator" (cos you can use the same stylus assembly in prefitted bodies)
But not this week... :)
I would be very interested in buying this cartridge should you choose to sell it. :)
Indeed; sadly everything that SME don't have! ;)
Marco.
So, you view SME as lacking courage and flair do you? Strange because SME effectively invented the modern form of the tonearm in 1959.....the 3009 was a bold step beyond anything available, it has been endlessly copied ever since, just look at a modern Jelco for example.
Then, in the mid 80s, as CD was predicted to destroy all analogue (people had good reason to expect such a fate for vinyl) SME took out a huge bank loan to fund one of the most ambitious arms of modern times...the SME V. If that had failed commercially, SME would have been closed down. That's serious commercial courage because sales of LPs were in steep decline. I wouldn't have had the nerve to bet the company like that...would you?
Since then, SME have produced a range of high-mass suspended turntables....again, when the Model 30 was introduced there was no obvious rival.....other suspended decks were low mass. Again, other companies have copied them since.
SME may look a 'conservative' company, but actually they have a history of risk taking and bold design decisions. They just don't make any fuss about it. Which in these commercial times, is quite bold in itself.
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 17:09
Which Breuer arm was that Howard? Was the 'VDH' the Van den Hul modified and 'nuded' EMT TSD?
Regards
Barry
Hi Barry. It was a Breuer 8 Dynamic. The VDH was the 'nude' MC1. Yes, dust was an issue!
I wanted the Breuer cartridge but the cantankerous so ‘n so said he would build me one but then pointed out that it would not work in the 8 Dynamic because it needed a different counterweight mass and he wasn’t prepared to machine one of those! No, I couldn’t figure it out either. And then he died.
Oldpinkman
11-08-2015, 17:11
I would be very interested in buying this cartridge should you choose to sell it. :)
They are all going to be up for sale just as soon as I can get myself organised - probably first week of September. I need to do some research on what sort of price is sensible - which is always hard with rare cartridges - there are not dozens of comparables. The Ortofon is the only one I want to play again to make sure its ok. They are all great cartridges in their way. I would give AK first refusal on the Technics MC since he is a bit of a collector, and recently ripped his apart in a faulty arm. But if he prevaricates too long its up for grabs. :)
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 17:16
So, you view SME as lacking courage and flair do you? Strange because SME effectively invented the modern form of the tonearm in 1959.....the 3009 was a bold step beyond anything available, it has been endlessly copied ever since, just look at a modern Jelco for example.
Then, in the mid 80s, as CD was predicted to destroy all analogue (people had good reason to expect such a fate for vinyl) SME took out a huge bank loan to fund one of the most ambitious arms of modern times...the SME V. If that had failed commercially, SME would have been closed down. That's serious commercial courage because sales of LPs were in steep decline. I wouldn't have had the nerve to bet the company like that...would you?
Since then, SME have produced a range of high-mass suspended turntables....again, when the Model 30 was introduced there was no obvious rival.....other suspended decks were low mass. Again, other companies have copied them since.
SME may look a 'conservative' company, but actually they have a history of risk taking and bold design decisions. They just don't make any fuss about it. Which in these commercial times, is quite bold in itself.
Were you aware that SME’s founder, Alastair Robertson-Aikman was seriously considering suggesting to Arthur K at PT that they build the entire PT range to a higher standard but would not tinker with the fundamental engineering? ARA and I had a long and convivial discussion about this. He was an excellent and generous host.
If this is of interest to any of you reading this then I'll get around to posting the story here.
Oldpinkman
11-08-2015, 17:18
Were you aware that SME’s founder, Alastair Robertson-Aikman was seriously considering suggesting to Arthur K at PT that they build the entire PT range to a higher standard but would not tinker with the fundamental engineering> He and I had a long and convivial discussion about this.
If this is of interest to any of you reading this then I'll get around to posting the story here.
Arthur should have bitten his hand off. I am always telling him he needs to get someone to employ him - let him get on with the creative stuff he loves, and let someone else (well funded) run the business. He is not the easiest to work with though - and I know him well enough to say that and not mind if its reported back to him. I think he is planning to email you sometime. ;)
So, you view SME as lacking courage and flair do you? Strange because SME effectively invented the modern form of the tonearm in 1959.....the 3009 was a bold step beyond anything available, it has been endlessly copied ever since, just look at a modern Jelco for example.
Then, in the mid 80s, as CD was predicted to destroy all analogue (people had good reason to expect such a fate for vinyl) SME took out a huge bank loan to fund one of the most ambitious arms of modern times...the SME V. If that had failed commercially, SME would have been closed down. That's serious commercial courage because sales of LPs were in steep decline. I wouldn't have had the nerve to bet the company like that...would you?
Since then, SME have produced a range of high-mass suspended turntables....again, when the Model 30 was introduced there was no obvious rival.....other suspended decks were low mass. Again, other companies have copied them since.
SME may look a 'conservative' company, but actually they have a history of risk taking and bold design decisions. They just don't make any fuss about it. Which in these commercial times, is quite bold in itself.
Yes, Peter, but the problem is that they *appear* to have rested on their laurels ever since, and simply traded on their (undoubtedly excellent and well-deserved reputation). Where are the new designs/ideas? Where is the evidence of any radical new or lateral thinking at SME? These days, they just seem to churn out the same old stuff, ad nauseam... And *that* was my point! :)
I admire audio designers, such as Arthur K, who are able to think outside of the box, and who constantly push themselves, strive to evolve their designs and create something better.
I see no evidence of that at SME, even though they are hugely successful at what they do - and well done to them for that. I'm not anti-SME (far from it), but I find their conservatism and apparent lack of imagination, these days, somewhat unambitious and rather disappointing.
Marco.
Yes, Peter, but the problem is that they *appear* to have rested on their laurels ever since, and simply traded on their (undoubtedly excellent and well-deserved reputation). Where are the new designs/ideas? Where is the evidence of any radical new or lateral thinking at SME? These days, they just seem to churn out the same old stuff, ad nauseam... And *that* was my point! :)
I admire audio designers, such as Arthur K, who are able to think outside of the box, and who constantly strive to evolve their designs and create something better. I see no evidence of that at SME, even though they are hugely successful at what they do - and well done to them for that. I'm not anti-SME (far from it), but I find their conservatism and apparent lack of imagination, these days, a bit of a bore, and rather disappointing.
Marco.
1. Why repair something that is not broke.
2. SME 15?
Were you aware that SME’s founder, Alastair Robertson-Aikman was seriously considering suggesting to Arthur K at PT that they build the entire PT range to a higher standard but would not tinker with the fundamental engineering? ARA and I had a long and convivial discussion about this. He was an excellent and generous host.
If this is of interest to any of you reading this then I'll get around to posting the story here.
YES PLEASE (with bells on)! :)
Now that sounds like what could've been the making of a 'dream team'! Why on earth didn't it happen? :hmm:
Marco.
1. Why repair something that is not broke.
It's not about "repairing" something, Andy. It's about coming up with new ideas and showing evidence of forward thinking/continual advancement. Today, that seems to be non-existent at SME, and instead what appears to be a distinct lack of ambition.
Think about automobile design, for example, or really any other progressive industry these days: would BMW (or any other car manufacturer with their respective products) continue to churn out the same 3 Series or 5 Series cars, with almost no change to their design, for 20-odd years?
I fear not.....
Marco.
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 18:17
Arthur should have bitten his hand off. I am always telling him he needs to get someone to employ him - let him get on with the creative stuff he loves, and let someone else (well funded) run the business. He is not the easiest to work with though - and I know him well enough to say that and not mind if its reported back to him. I think he is planning to email you sometime. ;)
Arthur K:
He is, industry-wise, one of my all time favourite people. Yes, exasperating and yes it’s true I did threaten ABH on him about 30 years back but that said, he exhibits boundless and I believe genuine charm and a very sensible grasp of vinyl replay engineering. I haven’t seen him for a while and I miss him. Maybe I'll email him; nothing wrong with a bit of editorial pro-activity is there?
Better yet, I'll invite him to answer a series of questions which in the main will focus on how his training in physics metamorphosed into vinyl replay engineering, his brief dalliance with digital, ideas he had/has for speaker design, the inside track on The PIP preamp and more.
A dilemma
If he agrees then this in turn generates a dilemma and it’s one I invite anyone reading this, and this includes you Marco to comment about the format.
Many of my interviews, being in-depth, are long. Sometimes >2.5k word count. Far too long for a post here. The logical place would be in my capacity of features editor at HiFi Answers. However, my recent piece on homophobia in the audiophile world recently on this site certainly caught the attention of ‘AlanS’ but not because of the topic but because it initially appeared in HiFi Answers. He was, if you look at his comments, a bit cross. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?39916-Homophobia-in-the-UK-audiophile-industry&p=673323#post673323
So, what to do?
Do AoS members ‘deserve’ a superficial Funk interview or an in-depth one here on the forum or … notwithstanding the sensitivities of AlanS (is he alone in this I wonder?) a link to HiFi Answers? Might a .pdf of the full interview, if it goes ahead, be posted here? Before answering I need to point out that the interview would be paid for my HiFi Answers editor in chief Neil McCauley and quite rightly he would insist that the .pdf piece would be headed as coming from there.
Anyway, while mulling this over – and I'm content to go with the prevailing view with this, I know for sure that Arthur K will be an engaging, intriguing and informative interviewee.
Thanks
HP
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 18:35
YES PLEASE (with bells on)! :)
Now that sounds like what could've been the making of a 'dream team'! Why on earth didn't it happen? :hmm:
Marco.
Okay and thank you. i'll write it up. As a taster, ARA owned or a least had set up 31 turntables, pretty much state of the art. These were to establish the sort of benchmark their first deck (in development) had to meet or exceed. All that could have had SME5 arms on them did. SME was then and still does use a bespoke battery-drive LFD Audio phono stage for this crucial development.
The sound he liked most was the vastly expensive Goldmund with 3TF arm. a very close 2nd was, yes you guessed it, the comparatively cheap PT, with SME5 and a VDH Grasshopper cartridge. As for the rest of the story, you'll have to wait a bit. Thank you for the invitation.
Arthur K:
He is, industry-wise, one of my all time favourite people. Yes, exasperating and yes it’s true I did threaten ABH on him about 30 years back but that said, he exhibits boundless and I believe genuine charm and a very sensible grasp of vinyl replay engineering. I haven’t seen him for a while and I miss him. Maybe I'll email him; nothing wrong with a bit of editorial pro-activity is there?
Better yet, I'll invite him to answer a series of questions which in the main will focus on how his training in physics metamorphosed into vinyl replay engineering, his brief dalliance with digital, ideas he had/has for speaker design, the inside track on The PIP preamp and more.
A dilemma
If he agrees then this in turn generates a dilemma and it’s one I invite anyone reading this, and this includes you Marco to comment about the format.
Many of my interviews, being in-depth, are long. Sometimes >2.5k word count. Far too long for a post here. The logical place would be in my capacity of features editor at HiFi Answers. However, my recent piece on homophobia in the audiophile world recently on this site certainly caught the attention of ‘AlanS’ but not because of the topic but because it initially appeared in HiFi Answers. He was, if you look at his comments, a bit cross. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?39916-Homophobia-in-the-UK-audiophile-industry&p=673323#post673323
So, what to do?
Do AoS members ‘deserve’ a superficial Funk interview or an in-depth one here on the forum or … notwithstanding the sensitivities of AlanS (is he alone in this I wonder?) a link to HiFi Answers? Might a .pdf of the full interview, if it goes ahead, be posted here? Before answering I need to point out that the interview would be paid for my HiFi Answers editor in chief Neil McCauley and quite rightly he would insist that the .pdf piece would be headed as coming from there.
Anyway, while mulling this over – and I'm content to go with the prevailing view with this, I know for sure that Arthur K will be an engaging, intriguing and informative interviewee.
Thanks
HP
Hi Howard,
Lots to think about there, for sure! I think such an interview would be of great interest to the AoS membership, so my view would be to facilitate that in the best and most practical way possible, for the benefit of all parties concerned.
As for Alan S, he's a nice enough guy, but rather somewhat of a curmudgeon, so I wouldn't be overly concerned about his comments. His mindset certainly isn't representative of that of the majority of the AoS community. Also, as much as I've given Pinky a hard time over his 'Funk fanboyism', he should know that I have (and indeed always have done) had the greatest respect for Arthur K as an inventor and audio designer - and indeed a person.
Trouble is, it takes an entirely different skill set to manage and run a genuinely successful business, and to engineer his innovative and excellent designs to the highest standard, which they deserve - and *that* is where SME would come in, and why in my view, if it could work successfully, any 'marriage' made there would be one made in heaven! :)
Marco.
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 19:15
Hi Howard,
Lots to think about there, for sure! I think such an interview would be of great interest to the AoS membership, so my view would be to facilitate that in the best and most practical way possible, for the benefit of all parties concerned.
As for Alan S, he's a nice enough guy, but rather somewhat of a curmudgeon, so I wouldn't be overly concerned about his comments. His mindset certainly isn't representative of that of the majority of the AoS community. Also, as much as I've given Pinky a hard time over his 'Funk fanboyism', he should know that I have (and indeed always have done) had the greatest respect for Arthur K as an inventor and audio designer - and indeed a person.
Trouble is, it takes an entirely different skill set to manage and run a genuinely successful business, and to engineer his innovative and excellent designs to the highest standard, which they deserve - and *that* is where SME would come in, and why in my view, if it could work successfully, any 'marriage' made there would be one made in heaven! :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco. How about the following? I'll write the piece and will sent it to you privately. Once you see the style and length (Assuming Arthur can find the time to be interviewed) then you decide the best way for AoS members to be exposed to it. How do you feel about that? Regards - Howard
This thread is a small example of how myths get spread around. The whole ''SME should make Pink decks'' thing was a joke...a joke told by frustrated Pink fans in the 1980s, as a polite way of criticising Pink's curious attitude to build quality. Arthur would just grin , he knew the point being made.
SME were never asked, and would never have considered, making decks for Pink. In such ways are jokes turned into stories. In truth, Arthur and Neil bitterly resented SME introducing their own decks, and tried to move away from using SME arms. Indeed I remember Arthur, at the factory, trying to get an Aro to work on an Anniversary....like sitting on custard.
As for the claim that SME lack innovation; well, yes, like Linn, Michell, Garrard, Porsche 911, Rolex Oyster watches, Leica cameras and so on. Perhaps SME should bring out a new 'improvement' every year, we could be on the Series Five, ''mark 20'' by now. And why don't you attack Ortofon for sticking to the SPU? There's a lack of innovation if ever there was pne; as for all the people using sixty year old idler drive designs......
Hi Barry. It was a Breuer 8 Dynamic. The VDH was the 'nude' MC1. Yes, dust was an issue!
I wanted the Breuer cartridge but the cantankerous so ‘n so said he would build me one but then pointed out that it would not work in the 8 Dynamic because it needed a different counterweight mass and he wasn’t prepared to machine one of those! No, I couldn’t figure it out either. And then he died.
Thanks for that Howard. Mine is the Type 5A Dynamic: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31118-The-Breuer-Dynamic-Type-5A-pickup-arm, which I bought off Paul Messenger in the early '80s. It was one of the few imported by Linn to replace the Grace 707.
I would love a Type 8C - but they are as rare as hen's teeth. The last one I saw was about seven years ago for about £2,000. The Breuer 'modded' EMT is even rarer. I have only ever seen one advertised for sale on a German internet site: Audiomarkt. An image of it can be seen in the above link.
I have a 'nuded' EMT amongst my collection, but it needs repairing and modifying to fit the Breuer.
Thanks Marco. How about the following? I'll write the piece and will sent it to you privately. Once you see the style and length (Assuming Arthur can find the time to be interviewed) then you decide the best way for AoS members to be exposed to it. How do you feel about that? Regards - Howard
Sounds like a plan, Howard. However, much will depend on what Arthur thinks. He should know, however, that he has much support here, on all levels! :)
Marco.
Perhaps SME should bring out a new 'improvement' every year, we could be on the Series Five, ''mark 20'' by now. And why don't you attack Ortofon for sticking to the SPU? There's a lack of innovation if ever there was pne; as for all the people using sixty year old idler drive designs......
Well, Ortofon are probably the most prolific cartridge manufacturer in the world, and so continually innovating and bringing out new designs. As such, they are a rather bad example to use to support your argument!
Yes, they have stuck with the SPU, and for good reason, but that hasn't stopped them continually developing their product range, creating new designs, with great success. If SME modelled themselves on Ortofon, in that respect, and showed a similarly progressive attitude, they wouldn't have been subjected to my criticism...!! ;)
Marco.
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 20:12
This thread is a small example of how myths get spread around. The whole ''SME should make Pink decks'' thing was a joke...a joke told by frustrated Pink fans in the 1980s, as a polite way of criticising Pink's curious attitude to build quality. Arthur would just grin , he knew the point being made. SME were never asked, and would never have considered, making decks for Pink. In such ways are jokes turned into stories.
We are both, I suggest 'correct' re this. My discussion with ARA at SME was about the feasibility of building the PTs given he so loved the sound but not a lot about the process of extracting it. Did he and PT ever have a meaningful dialogue about this? I've no idea. What I do know was that in contrast to your assertion that "would never have considered, making decks for Pink" he as head of the Company certainly did give serious consideration to approaching PT. He was a bit autocratic and possibly he didn't - initially at least - discuss it with his fellow directors. This point could of course be debated to death but probably shouldn't.
How and why did I get involved? Well at that time, more people were buying PTs from Subjective Audio than anywhere else and from this he presumed (possibly incorrectly) that I knew more about the implications / ramifications / magazine responses than anyone else.
As an aside, getting maker A to build for maker B is not as fanciful as one might assume. Acos were at their peak selling >1m tone arms per year; they built for anyone who asked and the arms went out under innumerable brand names. Closer to home, I often wished that my Alfa 166 had been built by Honda and badged Alfa.
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 20:14
Sounds like a plan, Howard. However, much will depend on what Arthur thinks. He should know, however, that he has much support here, on all levels! :)
Marco.
Thanks. I'll keep you updated. Howard
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 20:29
Thanks for that Howard. Mine is the Type 5A Dynamic: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31118-The-Breuer-Dynamic-Type-5A-pickup-arm, which I bought off Paul Messenger in the early '80s. It was one of the few imported by Linn to replace the Grace 707.
I would love a Type 8C - but they are as rare as hen's teeth. The last one I saw was about seven years ago for about £2,000. The Breuer 'modded' EMT is even rarer. I have only ever seen one advertised for sale on a German internet site: Audiomarkt. An image of it can be seen in the above link.
I have a 'nuded' EMT amongst my collection, but it needs repairing and modifying to fit the Breuer.
Thanks. If it were my EMT I'd invite Helmut Brinkmann to consider it. A very friendly chap and you won't need to speak German either!
Oldpinkman
11-08-2015, 21:00
Howard. Easy tiger. Maybe your memory is a bit cloudy. The inside track on pip? The amp which retailed for £350 (agreed stupid underpriced) and pissed on the sp8 as sold by sa? An amp driven out of production by a dealers preference for the high margin sp8? If you are going to tell me the battery powered pip2 was a different beast, I have to tell you I have a newly refurbished pip1 and pip2 side by side on the shelf. Newly refurbished by Owen Jones. Deep breath. ;)
Neil McCauley
11-08-2015, 21:20
Howard. Easy tiger. Maybe your memory is a bit cloudy. The inside track on pip? The amp which retailed for £350 (agreed stupid underpriced) and pissed on the sp8 as sold by sa? An amp driven out of production by a dealers preference for the high margin sp8? If you are going to tell me the battery powered pip2 was a different beast, I have to tell you I have a newly refurbished pip1 and pip2 side by side on the shelf. Newly refurbished by Owen Jones. Deep breath. ;)
Tiger? Hmm; nice! Inside track? Not MY inside track. The interview is about PT, not about me. My take on this is I'll let the recorder do its job and verbatim I'll print what he says.
Incidentally, i sold both the SP8 and Pip. No conflict. My approach was to treat buyers as adults and let them decide via demo where an SPL meter ensured one pre was no louder than the other. I'm flattered you should want to guess both what Arthur has to say and indeed the topics to be discussed. Unless you have clairvoyant skills I suspect this will be a fruitless task.
Anyway, let's assume, just for now, that Arthur agrees to be interviewed then let's be constructive here; are there three {but only three) questions you'd like me to put to him?
PS: The term "pissed on" is, so I'm told "so yesterday". Moreover as far as I'm aware, it has no verifiable engineering basis as a descriptive term. That said, I do recognise its popularity in some circles.
Incidentally, have we met?
stuartypoorty
11-08-2015, 22:13
This is an endlessly fascinating thread.
I have a Pink Triangle Anniversary which I've owned from new and consider it to be a classic design, being well thought out and designed. I had a minor speed issue which was easily serviced by Andrew at Brady's in Warrington. The table was partnered with a SME V for some 18 years along with a whole host of Ortofon cartridges. I know many Annie owners favour an Alphason, Zeta or Funk Firm and I considered some alternatives which were either too heavy for the deck to support or too expensive...the Breuer Dynamic 8C.
So back to SME: another V, back to Ortofon: the MC A90
This is where Howard comes in. He introduced me to LFD Audio, and having lived with the NCSE integrated eventually being able to afford the MCT SE phono stage, I am very content with what has become, for me at least, a long but ultimately thoroughly satisfying journey.
The Anniversary is a classic.
SME engineer and support excellent products.
Ortofon are and will continue to be an innovative company.
Oldpinkman
12-08-2015, 06:11
Since you know Arthur Howard, you should know the answers will depend on the day you ask the question. I know pip is a touchy subject generally. I don't think we met. I am I'm afraid very "yesterday", and inclined to vernacular. I understood you are not.
The pip1 performed to a standard which equalled and bettered that of the sp8 at a price point which presented an issue both of profitability at pt, and margin opportunity for some London dealers, who sold very few of them.
I was just observing that your presentation of your association with that amplifier, the best I heard at the time, appears to differ from that of your putative interlocutor significantly.
Thank you for the offer to put some questions, but I can probably get answers for myself rather quicker. Of course, they may not be the same answers :eyebrows:
I was just observing that your presentation of your association with that amplifier, the best I heard at the time, appears to differ from that of your putative interlocutor significantly.
Que? Wossat then, when it's at home...? :scratch:
Marco.
Que? Wossat then, when it's at home...? :scratch:
Marco.
'Putative interlocutor' = 'Bloke what you are going to interview'.
commonly accepted as being a role player
commonly accepted as being a role player
Kinky!
Oldpinkman
12-08-2015, 08:25
Que? Wossat then, when it's at home...? :scratch:
Marco.
It was a play at being Humphrey Appleby.
I am conscious re-reading this thread that I am coming over as a bit hostile to Howard, which is absolutely not the case at all. I would therefore like to apologise for any possible offence caused. I tend toward the flippant and irreverant, and I note Howard plays the ball with a very straight bat, and maybe that doesn't mix well as a banter style.
AK is, well Arthur love him. And whilst you will have gathered we are good mates, I would be the first to acknowledge can be "colourful" to deal with (As previously noted he completely blanked me for 3 months not long ago). I tend to try not to emphasise that side of his character on forums, but I am usually the one who gets an earful these days. Regarding Pip - it is an especially touchy subject this week. And would probably have been an interesting interview question - although Arthur is a blame-shifter, so like I say it depends which day you get him on.
Best wishes for the venture Howard
:)
So Arthur's a cantankerous old blame-shifter who'll give different answers to the same questions depending on what mood he's in? Reminds me of when I worked with a bunch of women; any sentence that started with 'I love her to bits but ...' would usually end with a slagging-off.
Dear God, here we go again, PiP Groundhog Day :doh: perhaps you would be so kind as to point us in the direction of any professional magazine review, blog or online commentary that would support your 'opinion' as to the relative performance merits of the amplifiers you mention, or your assertion that it was profit margin alone that 'Did' for the commercial viability of your pet product.
Perhaps dealers felt more assured in recommending a product with a solid reputation worldwide, than a product that seems to have displayed, at best, a 'Patchy' track record in its manufacture, availability and even by your own commentary, reliability?
Neil McCauley
12-08-2015, 08:51
It was a play at being Humphrey Appleby.
I am conscious re-reading this thread that I am coming over as a bit hostile to Howard, which is absolutely not the case at all. I would therefore like to apologise for any possible offence caused. I tend toward the flippant and irreverant, and I note Howard plays the ball with a very straight bat, and maybe that doesn't mix well as a banter style.
AK is, well Arthur love him. And whilst you will have gathered we are good mates, I would be the first to acknowledge can be "colourful" to deal with (As previously noted he completely blanked me for 3 months not long ago). I tend to try not to emphasise that side of his character on forums, but I am usually the one who gets an earful these days. Regarding Pip - it is an especially touchy subject this week. And would probably have been an interesting interview question - although Arthur is a blame-shifter, so like I say it depends which day you get him on.
Best wishes for the venture Howard
:)
No offence taken at all and yes, I appreciate the sentiment. Re the potential of different answers on different days – yes I'm aware of this abberation and am aware that from time to time I'm guilty of this myself. Awareness is the start (so I'm told) but addressing it is as they say "something else" and I've found this to be true.
That said, I'm relieved that in all walks of life, I am able to change my opinions if the facts change or more likely, when additional facts come to light.
Re the possible AK interview, I'll send him an invitation next week and I'll report back here re his response. Temporarily I'm away from this thread but only because a series of time-critical commercial opportunities (some in our industry, and some outside) mean I have less time to devote currently to taking this further. I hope, in this thread at least to be back in a fortnight or so. Howard
Oldpinkman
12-08-2015, 09:00
Dear God, here we go again, PiP Groundhog Day :doh: perhaps you would be so kind as to point us in the direction of any professional magazine review, blog or online commentary that would support your 'opinion' as to the relative performance merits of the amplifiers you mention, or your assertion that it was profit margin alone that 'Did' for the commercial viability of your pet product.
Perhaps dealers felt more assured in recommending a product with a solid reputation worldwide, than a product that seems to have displayed, at best, a 'Patchy' track record in its manufacture, availability and even by your own commentary, reliability?
http://home.tele2.at/alohka/pip2.htm
http://home.tele2.at/alohka/pip2.htm
Which does not address the salient points I made in my post.
Oldpinkman
12-08-2015, 09:25
Roger
That's a bit of a tall ask. To find a review that precisely matches my inside knowledge of the background to the product
The review points out that Pip 2 is a really really good amplifier. Take a look at the conclusion
"The price of the amplifier has skyrocketed by 600% above the original PiP, indicating that perhaps the earlier version was an under-rated and undervalued audiophile bargain. Nevertheless the final production version is fully capable of holding its own even at this elevated price level. "
(The "earlier PIp" it refers to was a pre-prod version of Pip2 and not right. Usual to rush to get half-finished product to a reviewer. Pip 1 is very similar. I'm not sure I don't prefer it's phono stage, but its close. The amps are more similar than different. I have both here in perfect as new condition, and schematics for both.)
So that covers off the price hike and Pip 1 being unappreciated at its low price point
As for the reason for my "pet product" - I've got one, and I know how good it is. From the review "Vocal articulation and presence were also beyond reproach , and almost in spite of the number of tracks recorded or performers involved, the Pip 2 time and again developed sufficient acoustic space for a quite uncluttered and delightful performance. In many respects the ethereal nature of the sound stage with its population of granitic images ..."
A great partner for the PT TOO - bloody awesome with Anni! (that last commentary being 50% my own, and 50% a professional reviewers) ;)
It was a play at being Humphrey Appleby.
I had to look that up, as I didn't watch 'Yes Minister'. That series was too political and boring for me, soz!
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
12-08-2015, 10:17
I had to look that up, as I didn't watch 'Yes Minister'. That series was too political and boring for me, soz!
Marco.
WOT:eek: ............BORING :eek:......clever, smart, true to life more like!!
One of the best things ever on the box, right up there with Blackadder and 'ello 'ello. Almost worth getting one if they repeated it. In fact, I might just look on Amazon:)
Not my thing, matey. Yawn-inducing... You have to remember that you're a lot older than me, so when Yes Minister was broadcast in the 80s, I was only in my teens, and so wasn't interested in that sort of stuff. Also, I hate politics (then and now), so would never have been tempted to watch a TV series that revolved around it :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
12-08-2015, 10:24
Not my thing, matey. Yawn-inducing... You have to remember that you're a lot older than me, so when Yes Minister was broadcast in the 80s, I was only in my teens, and so wasn't interested in that sort of stuff. Also, I hate politics (then and now), so would never have been tempted to watch a TV series that revolved around it :)
Marco.
I keep forgetting that you are just a slip of a thing. The fact that I too hate politics makes this series all the better. It mocks and presents it exactly as we all suspect it is in real life.
pity as youd agree with all of it.. it was hilarious and extremely accurate. probably as much about the ineptitude of govt and the fact its all controlled by chinless civil servants
A very good review of the product Richard, however Absolute Sounds issue 24 reports an equally favourable review of the SP8.
Other than trading reviews, do you have anything else to offer in respect of my *salient points* ? other than your own opinion, indelibly coloured as it is by your own oft mentioned bias toward PT.
Hmmmm, what do we have here! http://www.stereo-now.co.uk/Newsletters/stereonow_SP8.pdf
I guess that "hilarious" is subjective. My type of "hilarious", in those days, would've been 'Not the Nine o'Clock News' or 'The Young Ones'!
Political humour usually goes over the top of my head, as I don't really follow or get involved with politics. That's why a lot of the stuff 'Spitting Image' did, although very funny, I didn't really get.
TBH, for the majority of the 1980s, I was too busy going out with my mates, riding my motorbike, going to parties, smoking dope and getting drunk/laid (not necessarily in that order), in between studying for exams, to be bothered too much about TV!! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
12-08-2015, 10:36
A very good review of the product Richard, however Absolute Sounds issue 24 reports an equally favourable review of the SP8.
Other than trading reviews, do you have anything else to offer in respect of my *salient points* ? other than your own opinion, indelibly coloured as it is by your own oft mentioned bias toward PT.
Hmmmm, what do we have here! http://www.stereo-now.co.uk/Newsletters/stereonow_SP8.pdf
What exactly else do any of us have? Over 50+ years of listening to equipment, I have still only heard a fraction of those available. OK Richard has a bias as he was connected with the company but I doubt that he would have something in his own system that was only there to support his mate (as you may think I am doing now).
There are good and bad reviews of all sorts of stuff out there. All they do is offer us something to listen to and then make up our own minds. Anything Richard says about PT is no different.
It seems strange to aim so much aggression about something so unimportant in the great scheme of things.
PS. With all respect to Howard, I'm not sure how much notice I would take of a review of a product by someone who sold that product.
I keep forgetting that you are just a slip of a thing. The fact that I too hate politics makes this series all the better. It mocks and presents it exactly as we all suspect it is in real life.
Yes, I believe it was Maggie Thatcher's favourite programme! ;)
Marco.
I fail to recognise Your interpretation that my request for further information regarding the historic commercial events, as mentioned by Richard, as in any way "aggressive" behaviour! Likewise my query regarding reference to any non biased comparison of PiP vs SP8! Richards opinion of PT can be taken as read.
Gordon Steadman
12-08-2015, 11:07
I fail to recognise Your interpretation that my request for further information regarding the historic commercial events, as mentioned by Richard, as in any way "aggressive" behaviour! Likewise my query regarding reference to any non biased comparison of PiP vs SP8! Richards opinion of PT can be taken as read.
The fact that you fail to recognise the aggression doesn't mean it isn't there. That is how your posts have come across to me. Howard's review of the SP8 could hardly be viewed as unbiased.
Not my thing, matey. Yawn-inducing... You have to remember that you're a lot older than me, so when Yes Minister was broadcast in the 80s, I was only in my teens, and so wasn't interested in that sort of stuff. Also, I hate politics (then and now), so would never have been tempted to watch a TV series that revolved around it :)
Marco.
I'm younger than you and I watched them all first time round it was one of the best things on and it still is - they occasionally show the odd one on UK Gold - it really does embarass modern television.
Sir Humphrey: 'What is it that you want, Bernard?'
Bernard; 'I want a clear conscience'
Sir Humphrey; 'Ah! A clear conscience! And exactly when did you aquire a taste for such luxuries?'
Oldpinkman
12-08-2015, 11:20
Don't get me wrong, I think the SP8 was a great amp, and the reference against which we were judging pip at the time. We had an SP8 at the factory, and the difference from the Quad44 then used as the "house" amplifier was night and day.
My earlier reference to "pissing on", as Howard observed, was perhaps a little imprecise. However, we could distinguish Pip as more than edging it with the SP8 - .
My point has been Pip 1 at £350 bombed. Pip 2 which was not very different really at £3000 got the recognition and was rated a "giant killer" by the press. Having both amps here to listen to, it is pretty evident this was a "Percieved value" issue. An amp that cheap (and horrid sand devices instead of nice glass bottles) just can't be that good. It was. And still is. And I'm personally very happy I have the privilege of owning one that is a runner. I scoured the universe to renew my friendship with the only man I could find to mend it (having let a few others f*** it up, before I found him)
I am not saying there are not other better amps out there somewhere. There may well be. I am just very happy that I don't have to spend my time looking for them. I would be (was for over a year) very unhappy using a lesser amp (the poor old Quad 44 again was the temp I rented off ebay). I am very glad that I don't have to do that, and can use the amp that makes LP's special for me.
And , although interested in further "fiddling" with the PT 1, I'm not really fussed about upgrading that any more - that too is floating my boat. But since the man promised he'd help me pimp it - seems rude not to take him up on it and squeeze just that little bit more out.
:cool:
The fact that you fail to recognise the aggression doesn't mean it isn't there. That is how your posts have come across to me. Howard's review of the SP8 could hardly be viewed as unbiased.
Neither is the fact that you have incorrectly interperated my reasonable request, to be as such.Your own opinion as to the delivery of that request is of no relevance here.
Thank you for the more considered qualification regarding your opinion of the two products Richard, It was mostly the verhmence of the vernacular that attracted my query as with most things equipment related, different set ups and different ears may well reverse the order of things.
I do however remain sceptical that dealer greed in promoting the SP8 over the PiP was fundamental in strangling the worldwide retail success of the latter, without rationalising the points I made regarding the product itself.
Gordon Steadman
12-08-2015, 11:46
Neither is the fact that you have incorrectly interperated my reasonable request, to be as such.Your own opinion as to the delivery of that request is of no relevance here.
How kind.
I'm younger than you and I watched them all first time round it was one of the best things on and it still is - they occasionally show the odd one on UK Gold - it really does embarass modern television.
Sir Humphrey: 'What is it that you want, Bernard?'
Bernard; 'I want a clear conscience'
Sir Humphrey; 'Ah! A clear conscience! And exactly when did you aquire a taste for such luxuries?'
I'd laugh at that now, but I had a somewhat different sense of humour in those days, not to mention being much more immature (yes, even more than I am now, lol), so that stuff just wouldn't have tickled my fancy.
Each to his or her own I guess! :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
12-08-2015, 12:06
I'd laugh at that now, but I had a somewhat different sense of humour in those days, not to mention being much more immature (yes, even more than I am now, lol), so that stuff just wouldn't have tickled my fancy.
Each to his or her own I guess! :)
Marco.
It's never too late to immature properly.
The entire series is available on Amazon from only around £14. You could buy it and then send it to me for free if you decide it isn't really for you. I'm not proud.
Gordon and Roger, I'm not liking the tone of your exchanges. Please alter it and address each other in a more friendly manner, or ignore each other - one or the other. Ta!
Marco.
It's never too late to immature properly.
The entire series is available on Amazon from only around £14. You could buy it and then send it to me for free if you decide it isn't really for you. I'm not proud.
Lol - I'll bear that in mind if or when I'm exceptionally bored! ;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
12-08-2015, 12:13
Gordon and Roger, I'm not liking the tone of your exchanges. Please alter it and address each other in a more friendly manner, or ignore each other - one or the other. Ta!
Marco.
Wilco:)
TBH, for the majority of the 1980s, I was too busy going out with my mates, riding my motorbike, going to parties, smoking dope and getting drunk/laid (not necessarily in that order), in between studying for exams, to be bothered too much about TV!! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
You studied for exams? Blimey!
Yes, hard to believe as it is, I did quite well at school, especially in the subjects I liked (languages). I had intentions of becoming a translator (and obtained the necessary qualifications), but decided to earn a proper living, out in the big, bad world, instead of dossing around at uni! ;)
Marco.
Dossing round at uni was what I was born to do; God knows why I thought it was a good idea to stop it and get a job. I can't remember ever revising for an exam though.
Quite often I did that on the bus to school, on the day of the exam! I always was a bit of a 'last minute wonder', in that respect. Didn't stop me from passing usually, though.
When I found out I was good at sales, and started earning big bucks (for my age), selling this, that and the next thing, and the 'toys' that bought me (and girlies it attracted), the thought of spending years at uni, penniless in comparison, amongst boring nerds , until I qualified and got a job that probably wouldn't have paid as much as I was earning in sales, wasn't very attractive - and I've always had a taste for [i]La Dolce Vita! ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
12-08-2015, 14:31
Thank you for the more considered qualification regarding your opinion of the two products Richard, It was mostly the verhmence of the vernacular that attracted my query as with most things equipment related, different set ups and different ears may well reverse the order of things.
I do however remain sceptical that dealer greed in promoting the SP8 over the PiP was fundamental in strangling the worldwide retail success of the latter, without rationalising the points I made regarding the product itself.
Roger. You are almost certainly right. The other factors you mentioned would certainly be contributory. Dealer greed was the one that happened to be mentioned in our discussions - which is what caused me to smile at Howards comment. And - if not "wicked dealers" then certainly that natural tendency to assume something costing £350 can't outperform something costing 2 grand was a factor with both buyers and dealers.
The history of PT is a history of "what might have beens". It will be interesting to see what Howards interview reveals
Spending an hour reading this thread has made me want to get MY original PT down off the wardrobe for the first time in many, many years, despite the childish bickering from certain key board warriors! :D
Oldpinkman
04-12-2015, 08:28
OK
I'm going down to see Arthur on Thursday next week, for a Fish lunch, to run the hoover over the old PT before exporting to France, and see his knicker-wetting exciting new accessories, and pick up a Techie one for Cagey
If you are not interested in what happens - fuck off and read another thread. Don't whinge on here
xx
Lol! :eyebrows:
I'm interested in the knicker-wetting Techie accessory for Kevin (what it be), and just how truly pant-soaking it is, so I'll hang around...
While you're at Arthur's, could you ask him if the 'Kinetic cradle' (or whatever it was called), the isolation platform thingy for the Techie, will ever materialise as a finished product, or forever exist as a brain fart, which was never developed into a full-blown jobby?
Marco.
Oldpinkman
04-12-2015, 09:18
Oh poo, Marco
You do like to spoil a surprise. As you know, Arthur is inclined to change his mind more often than you change your ladies underwear. Last I heard, before the last visit, was that kinetic was now to be only for Vector / Sapphire. "Boing" (one of the new ideas) was for Techies and the rest of the great unwashed.
Arthur is in the process of finishing the patents for Boing, (which relate to the way it is sprung) - but its a replacement turntable foot with spring suspension built into it. I saw a prototype the last time I was down, and set an SL1210 up on it to show it worked.
In spite of that, he phoned me to tell me all about Boing last week, and that he might have one for a Technics, and I could see what I think of it, before I reminded him of our extensive messing with his first prototype (He's like a big kid). The latest version of the official truth, as I understand it, is that Boing will be available in 3 standard "ratings" (spring rating based on turntable mass) I believe ranging from around £100 to £200 a set.
For those who don't want the fiddle and faff of changing feet, there will then be (at greater cost) KINETIC. Now, I was too busy at the time to challenge him about "but you said to me, Kinetic was only for Vector/Saphire". Anyway, the weather had changed several times since that conversation...).
I have only ever SEEN a Kinetic for Vector / Saphire, but, if I understood correctly, should Boing launch successfully, the intention is to produce Kinetic for other TT's and the Techie would be a front runner for that. Of course, at least theoretically, it could offer further advantages beyond convenience over Boing, in that the external plinth of Kinetic effectively turns the unit into an Anniversary style suspended deck - Anniversary style, because the motor is mounted on the suspended sub-chassis, rather than on the plinth (as in the case of my Pink Triangle 1)
But Thursday is 6 whole days away, and a lot could change ;)
Spectral Morn
04-12-2015, 11:09
If you are not interested in what happens - fuck off and read another thread. Don't whinge on here
There was no whining just the addressing of soft soap, disingenuous re writing history posting, that needed a less rose tinted reality check. I assume you are referring to these.
As this is an open public forum, and any comments critical or otherwise are welcome if they are on topic, pertinent and measured. Any thread on here is open to comment, except nasty trolling type comments, which are not welcome.
Oldpinkman
04-12-2015, 12:10
There was no whining just the addressing of soft soap, disingenuous re writing history posting, that needed a less rose tinted reality check. I assume you are referring to these.
As this is an open public forum, and any comments critical or otherwise are welcome if they are on topic, pertinent and measured. Any thread on here is open to comment, except nasty trolling type comments, which are not welcome.
Thanks Neil. Just the sort of positive on topic post I was hoping for. It is an open forum - but only for Funk and Pinkie bashing it would appear. Others are able to hide their embarrasment
Marco - please delete this thread which contains much that is deeply defamatory to Funk and Pink Triangle, and Arthur and myself, in accordance with your recent action on behalf of ETP platters.
Thanks.
Prams and toys comez to mind:doh:
My point has been Pip 1 at £350 bombed. Pip 2 which was not very different really at £3000 got the recognition and was rated a "giant killer" by the press. Having both amps here to listen to, it is pretty evident this was a "Percieved value" issue. An amp that cheap (and horrid sand devices instead of nice glass bottles) just can't be that good. It was. And still is.
:cool:
My bold.
This is incredibly sad, but so damned true and I think still applies here and there, although the market is a tiny fragment of what it was even twenty years ago...
Marco - please delete this thread which contains much that is deeply defamatory to Funk and Pink Triangle, and Arthur and myself, in accordance with your recent action on behalf of ETP platters.
I'll certainly consider removing any specific posts you feel qualify as such (if you go through and number them for me).
However, deleting the whole thread, over a misunderstanding (I don't think Neil took your comment in the spirit in which it was intended, as I did, and your somewhat overreaction to Neil's response), would not only be daft, but also counterproductive to the constructive part of this thread: discussing Funk products in a openly receptive and friendly manner.
Therefore, with that in mind, the thread will remain open, and after lunch I will comment (as I had intended to do before this little 'stramash' took place), about the Kinetic Cradle and Boing, either of which I (and I suspect others also) would most likely consider buying for our turntables :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
04-12-2015, 13:18
Roger. You are almost certainly right. The other factors you mentioned would certainly be contributory. Dealer greed was the one that happened to be mentioned in our discussions - which is what caused me to smile at Howards comment. And - if not "wicked dealers" then certainly that natural tendency to assume something costing £350 can't outperform something costing 2 grand was a factor with both buyers and dealers.
The history of PT is a history of "what might have beens". It will be interesting to see what Howards interview reveals
I would say the main factor with dealers would have been the lack of profit at 350, versus that at 2k.
Oldpinkman
04-12-2015, 13:26
Marco
I appreciate your post is broadly sensible. The Supreme Dalek and I clearly don't hit it off - and I don't see the need for tiresome little posts like his. It spoils this thread, and my enjoyment of the forum, as similar posts spoil other threads. And has the arrogance to assume he knows best and is just putting me right. But I could just say "exterminate exterminate" and ignore him. The risk is it develops into a "tis tisnt" argument about who is right.
There are 2 more serious points.
First, and its really hard to work out how to word this without sounding churlish, but I don't give a flying f*** if you buy any Funk products or not. If they're any good, and they make your system better for you, I'm as happy for you as I am happy for you when you get a new donkeys walloper to prevent the mains electickery spilling on your carpet. But I have no financial interest in Funk, and I regularly suffer hostile comment because my friendship with him is perceived that way, and so - whilst I know you didnt mean it like that, that "supportive comment" just adds fuel to the fire.
Second - and this is related to the first, there is a strong case that my wittering about Funk because I know Arthur actually does him more harm than good. Most of "doing HiFi" for me is with Arthur or Owen or interacting on the forum, I am likely to talk about that, or empty horse-shit I know nothing about, and I tend to call it as I see it. But - the hostile baiting that goes on on the forum in response to my posts, stays there for anyone to google search any time. Forget the Supreme Dalek and his autistic superiority and missing sense of humour - how about this one
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37885-Funk-Firm-s-new-Strata-platter-and-quot-spin-quot-bearing&p=646697#post646697
Now - I know you put out that cock and bull story about the OP feeling faint and wanting the whole thread removed, but the reality is much more likely to be that Mike New wanted to avoid that thread showing up on every google search for an ETP platter and that's why he encouraged you or the OP to remove it. This needs to be a level playing field. If Arthur has to put up with the abusive comments like "As for rows of Mr. Funk's platters all de-stressing I find this rather amusing. And it should sure be of concern to the user. Does it mean the material he uses is unstable and could further distort with time!!!??? " when actually Arthur knew how to machine plastic properly (as evidenced by 10s of thousands of Pink Triangle platters produced) and Mike New clearly didn't (as evidenced by the 3 or 4 reports on that thread alone of "imperfect" platters from the few dozen that he has produced.
Why should Arthur put up with comments like post number 12
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?39779-Happy-Anniversary-taking-a-Pink-Triangle-for-a-spin/page2
When he is not even part of the forum??? Whereas Mike New is afforded protection which can only be described as censorship. Made worse by the Daleks comment showing he missed the point of how the PT sub-chassis worked -that "rough finish" - invisible in normal use - was essential to the sub-chassis singing, and we made any number of unsuccesful attempts to "edge" it which spoiled the performance. Even the beloved "much better finished" Anni only sprayed it black.
I don't have the time to pick through each post - the thread is hostile to PT and Funk. And any attempt to enter into a dialogue with Mr Exterminate with a view to correcting what I consider to be his mis-apprehensions - just make the situation worse by making an ever larger trail of hostile posts for a google search to find
Play fair.
Oooh, may be more toys to play with. :cool:
Hi Richard,
Points noted and accepted - and I will looking into the details contained in the links you provided, and taking the appropriate action. I also accept that you couldn't give a flying fuck if I buy any Funk products or not (that bit made me laugh :eyebrows:), and that you have no financial connection with Funk.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to go into everything you've written in detail, however there are a couple of things that I simply can't ignore:
Forget the Supreme Dalek and his autistic superiority and missing sense of humour...
That's a very personal and totally unacceptable remark, which under different circumstances would have resulted in you receiving a week's ban. We don't address each other here in that way, so please don't do that again, and present your argument without the need for blatantly insulting people, or I will have no option other than to ban you.
Now *this* is the really important bit:
I know you put out that cock and bull story about the OP feeling faint and wanting the whole thread removed, but the reality is much more likely to be that Mike New wanted to avoid that thread showing up on every google search for an ETP platter and that's why he encouraged you or the OP to remove it.
I can assure you that is complete and utter nonsense! In fact, I swear upon my life, and the life of my wife and family, that no such thing happened. Andrew PM'd me and asked for the thread to be removed because he felt embarrassed/uncomfortable with it, which under the circumstances I understood (as his reaction to discovering the problem he had was all rather 'knee jerk'), so I did as he asked.
I have had ONE conversation about the matter with Mike [prompted by ME], and it was nothing like you've imagined. Now this is something that I have never done, and will likely ever do again, but I'm going to copy and paste the email correspondence I've had with Mike, on the matter of the ETP platter of Andrew's, which I give you my word is completely unedited, as neither him nor I have anything to hide, so I know Mike won't mind:
Me to Mike, the DAY AFTER the thread had already been deleted. I had heard nothing from Mike about the matter before this (in fact, if I hadn't contacted him, I don't think I'd have heard anything from him about it at all):
Hi Mike,
I hope you are well, and trust that you're aware of the ETP platter situation with Andrew, and the subsequent discussion of this matter on AoS, which has now been deleted at Andrew's request.
I'll leave it up to you how you deal with it, but I would suggest some form of comment on AoS about the matter, as Andrew's remarks (justifiable or otherwise) have of course done nothing to instil buyer confidence in your products.
You should also be aware of this thread, noting my comments therein: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41867-blonde-moment
It's a shame that all this has happened, but I'm afraid it's what can occur when someone perceives, justifiably or not, that what they've been sold is not fit for the purpose it was intended - and if there is a genuine issue with quality control, involving the production of your ETPs, then it's something you should look into.
Anyway, if I can help in any way, in terms of taking this matter forward productively, or if there are any comments you'd like to make yourself, just let me know.
ATB,
Marco.
To which Mike responded:
Hi Marco,
It would seem that Andrew sadly had his own problems/demons when it comes to doing anything outside his comfort zone or capability.
His jump-in approach to the whole thing has been concerning to me.
Removing magnets and then asking on AoS about how the pulse generator is removed and emailing me at the same time, I just could not keep up with him.
He has now sold the unit without even giving me a chance to discuss things.
The Platter was tested and ran OK when I shipped it.
It may be that the material has moved in some way, but I have made about 25 of them without problems.
It's really amazing, things have been very quiet recently, but the moment someone
mentions anything that may be a problem everyone who has an axe to grind comes out of the woodwork with all their negativism.
It does not worry me too much Marco and thanks for your support.
Mike
I actually haven't had the chance to reply yet, as I only received his email this morning.
Now you will see in there that there is no suggestion whatsoever of Mike making any demands of me, in terms of removing threads, or indeed the matter being discussed otherwise. Indeed, had Mike asked me to remove the thread in the manner you've suggested, I would've (respectfully) told him no, as this sort of stuff (a customer's honest account of his experiences of a product sold by an AoS trader) should be allowed to be conducted in the public domain, for the reference of others.
As I've said, and I hope you will now have the grace to accept that I'm not lying to you, the ONLY reason the original thread was removed [and in reality it's still all there, merely invisible to everyone but the mods and admin, and so can be restored at any time] was because Andrew asked me nicely - end of. Otherwise the whole thread/discussion would still be viewable publicly.
Therefore, I would like an apology from you for rather rudely and unacceptably accusing me of dishonest behaviour. I may be many things, but dishonest or a liar I am not.
This needs to be a level playing field.
It is a level playing field, and I am being fair. So like I said, when I have time later, I will go through the stuff you've mentioned about Funk, which you consider as unacceptable (contained in those links), and take the appropriate action.
Right, now if you don't mind, I'm going to finish my lunch! :cool:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
04-12-2015, 14:13
Marco
I appreciate your post is broadly sensible. The Supreme Dalek and I clearly don't hit it off - and I don't see the need for tiresome little posts like his. It spoils this thread, and my enjoyment of the forum, as similar posts spoil other threads. And has the arrogance to assume he knows best and is just putting me right. But I could just say "exterminate exterminate" and ignore him. The risk is it develops into a "tis tisnt" argument about who is right.
There are 2 more serious points.
First, and its really hard to work out how to word this without sounding churlish, but I don't give a flying f*** if you buy any Funk products or not. If they're any good, and they make your system better for you, I'm as happy for you as I am happy for you when you get a new donkeys walloper to prevent the mains electickery spilling on your carpet. But I have no financial interest in Funk, and I regularly suffer hostile comment because my friendship with him is perceived that way, and so - whilst I know you didnt mean it like that, that "supportive comment" just adds fuel to the fire.
Second - and this is related to the first, there is a strong case that my wittering about Funk because I know Arthur actually does him more harm than good. Most of "doing HiFi" for me is with Arthur or Owen or interacting on the forum, I am likely to talk about that, or empty horse-shit I know nothing about, and I tend to call it as I see it. But - the hostile baiting that goes on on the forum in response to my posts, stays there for anyone to google search any time. Forget the Supreme Dalek and his autistic superiority and missing sense of humour - how about this one
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37885-Funk-Firm-s-new-Strata-platter-and-quot-spin-quot-bearing&p=646697#post646697
Now - I know you put out that cock and bull story about the OP feeling faint and wanting the whole thread removed, but the reality is much more likely to be that Mike New wanted to avoid that thread showing up on every google search for an ETP platter and that's why he encouraged you or the OP to remove it. This needs to be a level playing field. If Arthur has to put up with the abusive comments like "As for rows of Mr. Funk's platters all de-stressing I find this rather amusing. And it should sure be of concern to the user. Does it mean the material he uses is unstable and could further distort with time!!!??? " when actually Arthur knew how to machine plastic properly (as evidenced by 10s of thousands of Pink Triangle platters produced) and Mike New clearly didn't (as evidenced by the 3 or 4 reports on that thread alone of "imperfect" platters from the few dozen that he has produced.
Why should Arthur put up with comments like post number 12
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?39779-Happy-Anniversary-taking-a-Pink-Triangle-for-a-spin/page2
When he is not even part of the forum??? Whereas Mike New is afforded protection which can only be described as censorship. Made worse by the Daleks comment showing he missed the point of how the PT sub-chassis worked -that "rough finish" - invisible in normal use - was essential to the sub-chassis singing, and we made any number of unsuccesful attempts to "edge" it which spoiled the performance. Even the beloved "much better finished" Anni only sprayed it black.
I don't have the time to pick through each post - the thread is hostile to PT and Funk. And any attempt to enter into a dialogue with Mr Exterminate with a view to correcting what I consider to be his mis-apprehensions - just make the situation worse by making an ever larger trail of hostile posts for a google search to find
Play fair.
Richard
I was not the only person involved in selling Pink at the time (I worked for a dealership that did) who felt the fit and finish was poor, in fact others posting on this thread revealed issues from then in more detail than I did.
There is no defamation here because anything I said is my opinion based on being there and seeing, handling and building Pink Triangle turntables from the late 80s to mid 90's. My comments were regarding turntables from that time and in the main before then (which I had to fit new cartridges to, tonearms etc), not later turntables and not electronics or anything else. You yourself have written numerous things on AoS over the years re the degree of unrepairability about some Pink electronics which in my view actually does more damage than anything I have said. I am very careful with what I say and don't say, and I did not make any comment about Funk, a current business (Pink Triangle is long dead and buried) because I have no direct experience of their current products, except those I was sent to review and I wrote about, and a Funk mk 1 platter I bought S/H
There is nothing personal in what I said, simply addressing a series of comments that I and others felt were less than accurate. You don't agree, that fine.
I saw your post, with no emoticon and frankly it basically said F... off if you have anything to add that isn't 100% positive. Frankly in the real world there is no bubble of protection from honestly observed and reported issues, as long as they are that and not just trolling for trolling sake, or comments that are defamation.
Anyway if you are saying any of your threads are no go areas for nothing but sycophantic praise and fawning of a past golden age then that is not in my view in the spirit of frank and honest discussion which is something AoS is about. But if it makes you happy I will not comment on your threads from now on. However the comments I made earlier on in this thread and those by others with direct experience should be allowed to stand as they give balance to your views re early period Pink Triangle turntables.
Spectral Morn
04-12-2015, 14:32
In terms of comments about Pink Triangle, they are comments about that long gone company, that no longer trades or has any presence in current audio, except as a historical footnote in audio history and items for sale in the used sections of audio magazines, selling sites etc.
Funk is a current company, but is not Pink Triangle. Yes there are personalties in common, but as a legal registered trading entity Funk Firm is not Pink.
Now if comments were made about Funk that were inaccurate or defamatory then you would have a point.
All said as my opinion, and the last thing I will say on any of your threads.
Oldpinkman
04-12-2015, 14:55
Oh boy, there's a lot here, that I'm not sure I have time for at the moment , but I will return to.
From a quick scan, I think thanks to Neil and Marco are appropriate for recognising some of my points, and quite clearly apologies are due to Neil for rudeness.
A bit like my earlier note, that almost anything will sound defensive - other than a straight apology - I'll just try to have a quick go and leave it at that
I try to be flippant rather than "BBC announcer". By contrast, from what I have seen, Neil is much more "straight" and deadpan and factual. The comment "autistic and humourless" was intended as a shorthand jibe at the posting style, (and as a contrast to mine) and not a comment about the individual. However, rereading it - its a monster, and I apologise unreservedly for it
Richard
Cool.
Could I also please have an apology for your accusation that I was acting in a dishonest manner? Because I promise I've told you the truth about what happened. That way, darling, we can properly kiss and make up [just no tongues]! :kiss:
Marco.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.