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Ammonite Acoustics
20-07-2015, 20:05
Having rather rudely thread-crapped the turntable shelf thread, I thought that it would be fun to show off our idler decks, link to delights and monstrosities that exist elsewhere on the web, etc.

So, here is my TD-124, lovingly updated and serviced, but definitely showing its near 50 year old cosmetic scars. I love this old thing.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/IMGP1376_zpsd368d777.jpg

I do have an original and deeply lovely 1960s Ortofon plinth for it, but that's almost too precious to use.

Gordon Steadman
20-07-2015, 20:28
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8618/16089806370_180c2af754_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qvNsSE)Dual 1019 (https://flic.kr/p/qvNsSE) by Gordon Steadman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36427233@N03/), on Flickr

My Dual 1019. Being me, it has been got at a bit and all the auto gubbins has been removed. I have always hated non manual tone arms. It's a cracking TT and sounds remrkable for its 50 price tag.

Ammonite Acoustics
20-07-2015, 21:08
I'm probably wrong here, but I seem to recall that those old Duals had rather good motors - likely better than the shaded pole types used by Thorens and Garrard.

Gordon Steadman
20-07-2015, 21:15
I'm probably wrong here, but I seem to recall that those old Duals had rather good motors - likely better than the shaded pole types used by Thorens and Garrard.

I think so. Certainly this one is completely silent and smooth. I did take it apart and lubricate it but there was absolutely no sign of wear on the thrust plate although I did turn it over anyway. It all weighs a ton and the platter is a lump on its own. The surprising thing is the arm. It doesn't look that great but seems to be up to tracking almost anything. I tried the Technics in it at just over a gramme and it sailed through everything. It has a M75ED in at the mo and even that sounds very good.

I could quite happily listen to this if my main deck stopped working for any reason.

Barry
20-07-2015, 22:51
Having rather rudely thread-crapped the turntable shelf thread, I thought that it would be fun to show off our idler decks, link to delights and monstrosities that exist elsewhere on the web, etc.

So, here is my TD-124, lovingly updated and serviced, but definitely showing its near 50 year old cosmetic scars. I love this old thing.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/IMGP1376_zpsd368d777.jpg

I do have an original and deeply lovely 1960s Ortofon plinth for it, but that's almost too precious to use.

Would love to see a photo of that plinth.

The TD124 looks nice, but I think a black finish for the armboard would look much better. ;) What cartridge are you using?

Ammonite Acoustics
21-07-2015, 06:30
Would love to see a photo of that plinth.

The TD124 looks nice, but I think a black finish for the armboard would look much better. ;) What cartridge are you using?

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/hugocass/OrtofonPlinth_zps350e7489.jpg

I rather like natural wood armboards, both for looks as well as sonic performance - that one is Brazilian Cherry from Jim Campbell in the States. There's no reason why a hardwood board cannot be stained black, of course. I'm having a small batch of walnut TD-124 armboards made up by a local CNC-enabled cabinet maker and the fine walnut grain would look really good through a black, sort of silky ebonised, finish. So, I'll sacrifice one for experimentation.

Cartridges depend on which tonearm is fitted, but my favourite is the Ortofon Kontrapunkt B, whether fitted to the Audio Note Arm 3, Jelco or SME 309. That's an Audio Note IQ3 in the photo, and I have a Benz Wood SL too.

Barry
21-07-2015, 16:34
Agree with you regarding wood vs. any other material (such as acrylic) for the armboard, but a black finish compliments the pale grey of the deck itself (IMO). :)

Looks like your Ortofon plinth is a badged version of the ash plinth designed for the 124.

helma
21-07-2015, 17:00
Another Dual 1019... a bit of a crappy photo, but the 2nd tonearm on the back is a Denon DA-305 and both arms currently have Esoter Azzurras mounted on them (a rebranded Glanz MFG-11 I believe). The plinth is made of 5 layers of pine with a stone made for pizza baking at the bottom :) The plinth was kind of a trial run, I plan to build a bit different one from birch ply sometime in the future, but in the mean time this one is more than sufficient.

http://i.imgur.com/vIR9Tgl.jpg

Ammonite Acoustics
21-07-2015, 17:10
Agree with you regarding wood vs. any other material (such as acrylic) for the armboard, but a black finish compliments the pale grey of the deck itself (IMO). :)

Looks like your Ortofon plinth is a badged version of the ash plinth designed for the 124.

It's actually made up from individual beech blocks, and has a lovely patina about its lacquered finish. Ortofon Japan still use that old scripted logo!

wiicrackpot
21-07-2015, 19:18
@kai- Lovely TT's those Duals, could happily live with one if i hadn't gone Garrard route.

@Hugo- Are those Jap produced logo's comparable to original items?, my ST104 is missing it's logo and would be interested in a replacement.

Ammonite Acoustics
21-07-2015, 19:30
@Hugo- Are those Jap produced logo's comparable to original items?, my ST104 is missing it's logo and would be interested in a replacement.

I don't know - but the size is probably going to be all wrong. I could have a go at taking a mould off mine and making a cold cast bronze facsimile. My brother does this sort of thing and knows how to get the period look, with modern materials.

Gordon Steadman
21-07-2015, 19:45
Another Dual 1019... a bit of a crappy photo, but the 2nd tonearm on the back is a Denon DA-305 and both arms currently have Esoter Azzurras mounted on them (a rebranded Glanz MFG-11 I believe). The plinth is made of 5 layers of pine with a stone made for pizza baking at the bottom :) The plinth was kind of a trial run, I plan to build a bit different one from birch ply sometime in the future, but in the mean time this one is more than sufficient.

http://i.imgur.com/vIR9Tgl.jpg

Mine still has the standard plinth which is quite heavy but I think I will try a really heavy one at some stage and see if it makes any difference. It doesn't look as if you have used the springs. Is it clamped down? If so, do you think it sounds better that way?

helma
21-07-2015, 20:28
Mine still has the standard plinth which is quite heavy but I think I will try a really heavy one at some stage and see if it makes any difference. It doesn't look as if you have used the springs. Is it clamped down? If so, do you think it sounds better that way?

I can't give you a simple answer since I haven't heard the 1019 with the springs as mine was missing one when I got it, so I've only used it clamped down - first in a flimsier plinth and now with this beefier one. I do have a 1229 too, which I've used both with & without the springs and based on that and how the 1019 sounds in the heavy plinth, I'd say getting rid of the springs is an improvement. I find the springs in the 1229 at least tend to make bass a bit plummy, getting rid of the springs brings things into better focus. With the 1019 building the heavier plinth was a gradual improvement overall, just more clarity and a bit better all around.

I found building the plinth is a bit of an exercise in the dark arts unless you really know and understand the materials & physics involved (I don't have a clue myself), but based on the trial runs and experiments with this plinth, I think adding a damping material between at least some of the layers would probably be beneficial. I'm thinking some kind of two-tiered plywood plinth with a layer of acryl or even rubbercork between.

Anyway, if you want to try it without springs it's easily done and then you'll have a better idea if it's something you'll want to pursue further. Simply clamping down the transport screws is not enough though, it does compress the springs but they are still there and resonating & damping the coupling between the chassis and the plinth - but it's not difficult to take them off and they can be easily installed back. I've liked fiddling with mine and it was fun to do some woodworking for a change.

Gordon Steadman
21-07-2015, 21:01
I can't give you a simple answer since I haven't heard the 1019 with the springs as mine was missing one when I got it, so I've only used it clamped down - first in a flimsier plinth and now with this beefier one. I do have a 1229 too, which I've used both with & without the springs and based on that and how the 1019 sounds in the heavy plinth, I'd say getting rid of the springs is an improvement. I find the springs in the 1229 at least tend to make bass a bit plummy, getting rid of the springs brings things into better focus. With the 1019 building the heavier plinth was a gradual improvement overall, just more clarity and a bit better all around.

I found building the plinth is a bit of an exercise in the dark arts unless you really know and understand the materials & physics involved (I don't have a clue myself), but based on the trial runs and experiments with this plinth, I think adding a damping material between at least some of the layers would probably be beneficial. I'm thinking some kind of two-tiered plywood plinth with a layer of acryl or even rubbercork between.

Anyway, if you want to try it without springs it's easily done and then you'll have a better idea if it's something you'll want to pursue further. Simply clamping down the transport screws is not enough though, it does compress the springs but they are still there and resonating & damping the coupling between the chassis and the plinth - but it's not difficult to take them off and they can be easily installed back. I've liked fiddling with mine and it was fun to do some woodworking for a change.

Thanks for the reply. I think, as you suggest, I will try removing the springs first to see how it sounds. I like the idea of a layered plinth. The plinth for my main TT is still awaiting veneer so I may well do something for the 1019 so I can veneer them both at the same time. I will also make it big enough for a second arm as I have a 12" that I want to use and there are already two on the main TT. Three gets a bit crowded.

Woodwork will not exactly be a change for me but I still enjoy it.

wiicrackpot
22-07-2015, 09:58
I don't know - but the size is probably going to be all wrong. I could have a go at taking a mould off mine and making a cold cast bronze facsimile. My brother does this sort of thing and knows how to get the period look, with modern materials.
Hi Hugo,

Keep me in the loop on this please. :)

DSJR
22-07-2015, 14:29
Layered marine ply seems to work well with idler decks. The Dual springs do a fine job usually and especially with the heavier top models (the 1019 has an extremely massy platter I recall). My new 601 purchase is another boringly reliable deck (it's a belt drive that thinks it's an idler regarding torque and lack of belt pitch-wobble).

Re Dual motors. Garrard and Dual used a similar way of getting the torque of an induction motor and the frequency locking of a synchronous motor, one taking clues from the other at various times..

Ammonite Acoustics
23-07-2015, 09:22
Layered marine ply seems to work well with idler decks. The Dual springs do a fine job usually and especially with the heavier top models (the 1019 has an extremely massy platter I recall). My new 601 purchase is another boringly reliable deck (it's a belt drive that thinks it's an idler regarding torque and lack of belt pitch-wobble).

Re Dual motors. Garrard and Dual used a similar way of getting the torque of an induction motor and the frequency locking of a synchronous motor, one taking clues from the other at various times..

I wonder if plain MDF might actually be quite good for an idler plinth, even though it's typically met with shaking heads and sucked teeth in audio circles? After all, the plinth mass needs to present an ordered transmission path for the energy that would otherwise circulate in the turntable's chassis structures - MDF has a reasonably homogenous structure that would do just that, while plywood has multiple layers of wood and glue, each potentially presenting an impedance mismatch and therefore inviting internal reflections of that energy. Chipboard has quite positive acoustic attributes and might be worth trying, even though it requires much work to get an acceptable cosmetic finish. All of that said, plywood plinths like my Jim Campbell solid one for the TD-124 do work well, so maybe I'm analysing these things too much!

Can you explain a bit further what you mean regarding motors?

Gordon Steadman
23-07-2015, 09:31
I wonder if plain MDF might actually be quite good for an idler plinth, even though it's typically met with shaking heads and sucked teeth in audio circles? After all, the plinth mass needs to present an ordered transmission path for the energy that would otherwise circulate in the turntable's chassis structures - MDF has a reasonably homogenous structure that would do just that, while plywood has multiple layers of wood and glue, each potentially presenting an impedance mismatch and therefore inviting internal reflections of that energy. Chipboard has quite positive acoustic attributes and might be worth trying, even though it requires much work to get an acceptable cosmetic finish. All of that said, plywood plinths like my Jim Campbell solid one for the TD-124 do work well, so maybe I'm analysing these things too much!

Can you explain a bit further what you mean regarding motors?

I intend to try an MDF plinth for the Dual and also probably, one made up from layers of kitchen worktop. That will have nice low density chipboard with layers of reasonably hard laminate. Both will take veneer well so the finish is not a problem. Analysing is fine but having a go and seeing what happens is much more fun!

Once I get my delivery of Evostick from the UK I can get on with them (French contact adhesive is rubbish). Matching plinths in Bird's Eye Maple I think.

walpurgis
23-07-2015, 09:39
I've made a number of thick TT plinths from layered MDF. No audibly negative effects arose. They worked well.

Gordon Steadman
23-07-2015, 09:41
I've made a number of thick TT plinths from layered MDF. No audibly negative effects arose. They worked well.

A very sensible answer:eyebrows:

wiicrackpot
23-07-2015, 21:22
I've made a number of thick TT plinths from layered MDF. No audibly negative effects arose. They worked well.
Ditto, my main deck a 401 is housed in a MDF plinth and veneered with Ebay bought Macasarr Ebony,
been happy with it for many years, heard an ply plinth and have no urge to change.