View Full Version : Benefits of cable burn-in.
cookstown
20-07-2015, 14:00
I thought I'd post a few comments on a recent acquisition of an Inspire Enigma(Lenco) Turntable. I purchased this late last year but didn't get around to buying a suitable arm until recently. I bought an Origin Live Silver Mk3 arm and partnered this with a Goldring 1042 cart.The table was serviced and set up by one of our own members(many thanks Neil) My initial impressions were of the "mehhh" school. It sounded OK but wasn't a scratch on my LP12/Funk Ekos, Arkiv B. However after about 10 hours play there was a big jump in performance, suddenly I was enjoying the music, my feet were tapping, always a good sign. The sound continued to improve over the following weeks. I can only put this down to the tonearm cable burning in. The sound has now settled to the extent that I can't quite make my mind up if I prefer the Enigma or my LP12, they both have their strenghts, the LP12 is a bit more 3D-like but softer, whereas the Enigma is a bit leaner sounding. I suspect the cartridge is the biggest difference between the 2 decks, and so the roundabout turns....
Sure it is not the cartridge breaking in, or was it not new?
Benefits of cable burn-in
There are many 'audiophiles' that suggest 'cable burn-in' is a very real, albeit scientifically inexplicable phenomenon.
As I don't believe in the supernatural I believe the concept to be complete twoddle.
-
That's not to say that a 'change' doesn't occur, simply that I believe what changes is your 'perception' ;)
Gordon Steadman
20-07-2015, 14:34
There are many 'audiophiles' that suggest 'cable burn-in' is a very real, albeit scientifically inexplicable phenomenon.
As I don't believe in the supernatural I believe the concept to be complete twoddle.
-
That's not to say that a 'change' doesn't occur, simply that I believe what changes is your 'perception' ;)
:cool:
Twoddle!!! Now there's a word I haven't used for a while. Must slip it into the conversation occasionally.
Twoddle!!! Now there's a word I haven't used for a while
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28NnWphc8IY
Should be spelt 'Twaddle'.
TWADDLE: "Technically without any decent, definitive, (or) legitimate explanation". :D
Gordon Steadman
20-07-2015, 15:02
Should be spelt 'Twaddle'.
TWADDLE: "Technically without any decent, definitive, (or) legitimate explanation". :D
:lol:
Nice one Barry. I prefer the 'twoddle' looks on the page though:)
walpurgis
20-07-2015, 15:29
There are many 'audiophiles' that suggest 'cable burn-in' is a very real, albeit scientifically inexplicable phenomenon.
As I don't believe in the supernatural I believe the concept to be complete twoddle.
-
That's not to say that a 'change' doesn't occur, simply that I believe what changes is your 'perception' ;)
Exactly. One acclimatises to changes. That's all that happens.
Gordon Steadman
20-07-2015, 15:31
Exactly. One acclimatises to changes. That's all that happens.
I don't think that is what he said:lol:
What changes?
walpurgis
20-07-2015, 15:34
I don't think that is what he said:lol:
No. It's what I said! :D
walpurgis
20-07-2015, 15:37
And I'm referring to changes in sound due to introducing other components into a system. Cables or whatever. The perception may be of 'burn in', but you're really just adjusting to the changes in sound caused by the new items.
If you own two systems, you can to an extent prove this. Use one system for a week then switch to the other and it will sound odd or unfamiliar until a few days have gone by. Then it will start sounding as you thought it should. You are adjusting to the change. Switch back to the previous system again after a week and the process starts all over again.
Not so fast. I agree that acclimatisation can account for most cases where burn in is experienced. But not all. I would have been in the twaddle camp until recently when I heard speaker cable burn in. I'm an experienced listener, I know all the pitfalls and I can say quite categorically that it was not acclimatisation. The sound of the cable changed by virtue of running signal through it over time: 'burn in'.
walpurgis
20-07-2015, 16:04
I sense another debate on 'directionality' coming on too. I can feel it in my bones! :lol:
Must pop off and demagnetise my mains plug pins and realign all the little supports under my cables. Then order another half dozen Shakti Stones. I need some to put on top of the boxes of components I don't use. Just to keep them 'in tune', so to speak. :rolleyes:
I can't see that it matters much, unless you foolishly hang on to a cable until the trial period ends, in the forlorn hope that it will 'burn in'. I don't remember anyone ever saying that their cable had 'burned-out', so even in a worst case scenario, you'll end up with a cable that sounds at least as good as it did when new.
Oldpinkman
20-07-2015, 16:10
Not so fast. I agree that acclimatisation can account for most cases where burn in is experienced. But not all. I would have been in the twaddle camp until recently when I heard speaker cable burn in. I'm an experienced listener, I know all the pitfalls and I can say quite categorically that it was not acclimatisation. The sound of the cable changed by virtue of running signal through it over time: 'burn in'.
So if you acquired a new fresh cable with no signal run through it, you would be able to distinguish the 2 easily in blind testing?
And I'm referring to changes in sound due to introducing other components into a system. Cables or whatever. The perception may be of 'burn in', but you're really just adjusting to the changes in sound caused by the new items.
If you own two systems, you can to an extent prove this. Use one system for a week then switch to the other and it will sound odd or unfamiliar until a few days have gone by. Then it will start sounding as you thought it should. You are adjusting to the change. Switch back to the previous system again after a week and the process starts all over again.
I agree with this theory.
My feeling is that if something moves, e.g. for example loudspeaker cones, then they can become more flexible with use.
As cable does not move, what can change after many hours except the listener's expectations?
awkwardbydesign
20-07-2015, 16:24
I agree with this theory.
My feeling is that if something moves, e.g. for example loudspeaker cones, then they can become more flexible with use.
As cable does not move, what can change after many hours except the listener's expectations?
Well, electrolytic capacitors "burn-in", and they don't move.
Well, electrolytic capacitors "burn-in", and they don't move.
Yes they do. They get out of the box and have a little dance when you're out of the room.
awkwardbydesign
20-07-2015, 16:28
Exactly. One acclimatises to changes. That's all that happens.
One new cable, one old cable. New one sounds worse than the old one. Burn it in, swap, and new cable sounds better than old cable. Swap back and old one sounds worse than new burnt in cable. Both Van Damme.
So if you acquired a new fresh cable with no signal run through it, you would be able to distinguish the 2 easily in blind testing?
In that particular case I am refering to: yes i'm pretty confident that I could. Confident enough to put money on it.
Well, electrolytic capacitors "burn-in", and they don't move.
The chemicals inside them do, if I understand correctly.
One new cable, one old cable. New one sounds worse than the old one. Burn it in, swap, and new cable sounds better than old cable. Swap back and old one sounds worse than new burnt in cable. Both Van Damme.
It only sounds better because you think it does.
In that particular case I am refering to: yes i'm pretty confident that I could. Confident enough to put money on it.
If you did it one hundred times, your choice would be roughly 50/50.
Gordon Steadman
20-07-2015, 17:01
And I'm referring to changes in sound due to introducing other components into a system. Cables or whatever. The perception may be of 'burn in', but you're really just adjusting to the changes in sound caused by the new items.
If you own two systems, you can to an extent prove this. Use one system for a week then switch to the other and it will sound odd or unfamiliar until a few days have gone by. Then it will start sounding as you thought it should. You are adjusting to the change. Switch back to the previous system again after a week and the process starts all over again.
Hey, once we've done this bit to death, we can start a nice discussion about the possibility of bits of wire sounding different.
Hey, once we've done this bit to death, we can start a nice discussion about the possibility of bits of wire sounding different.
....they do on guitar strings....:eyebrows:
Gordon Steadman
20-07-2015, 18:06
....they do on guitar strings....:eyebrows:
:lol:
High tension / low tension / wire wound...sounds a bit like electrickery don't wanna go there!
Oldpinkman
20-07-2015, 18:12
In that particular case I am refering to: yes i'm pretty confident that I could. Confident enough to put money on it.
I love a flutter. It's a pity you are so far away. I presume they are NVA cables and so not beer money themselves for buying the sample stock. Even their maker with his fanciful theoretical explanation only claimed a "burn in" period of a maximum of half an hour. There are some awfully good reasons why they don't burn in. I'd test the theory before staking big bucks. Cagey made a burn in claim for I/C's on TAS which he was going to put to a similar test, and then thought better of it. Not as daft as he looks, clearly :)
Oldpinkman
20-07-2015, 19:06
Well, electrolytic capacitors "burn-in", and they don't move.
Do they? Not that I had heard. They "form" - but that is a near instant process. I am not aware of any conventional electronics theory that they "burn in". They also "burn out" eventually - although its not so much a burning process as an ageing process.
I have only ever heard the concept of electrolytic capacitor burn-in in Hifi forums - where allegedly everything burns in. Not in any conventional electronic engineering context
Gordon Steadman
20-07-2015, 19:08
Do they? Not that I had heard. They "form" - but that is a near instant process. I am not aware of any conventional electronics theory that they "burn in". They also "burn out" eventually - although its not so much a burning process as an ageing process.
I have only ever heard the concept of electrolytic capacitor burn-in in Hifi forums - where allegedly everything burns in. Not in any conventional electronic engineering context
You forgot to mention shops, online sellers and salesmen.
With any trials I've done I have to say I'm with geoff. Any changes Ive heard over a few days listening producing improvement were the same with the original cable as will when reintroduced, if of course I got to like the sound of the new one eventually. when I changed back I didnt like the original for a day or so, but originally preferred it. But like all these things, its everyone to their own opinions and experiences.
Not in any conventional electronic engineering context
There's the rub
I love a flutter. It's a pity you are so far away. I presume they are NVA cables and so not beer money themselves for buying the sample stock. Even their maker with his fanciful theoretical explanation only claimed a "burn in" period of a maximum of half an hour. There are some awfully good reasons why they don't burn in. I'd test the theory before staking big bucks. Cagey made a burn in claim for I/C's on TAS which he was going to put to a similar test, and then thought better of it. Not as daft as he looks, clearly :)
The cable was a special made up for my speakers - it wasn't expensive I can probably get another set straight of the reel. I was told it was off the reel and would burn in and my first thought was 'yeah right.' But it did and it was quite noticeable.
I wasn't thinking big bucks, let's say a pony. But you have to give me odds, say ten to one. That shouldn't be a problem seeing as you are so sure... :)
awkwardbydesign
21-07-2015, 08:46
Do they? Not that I had heard. They "form" - but that is a near instant process. I am not aware of any conventional electronics theory that they "burn in". They also "burn out" eventually - although its not so much a burning process as an ageing process.
I have only ever heard the concept of electrolytic capacitor burn-in in Hifi forums - where allegedly everything burns in. Not in any conventional electronic engineering context
And there's the rub.
Oldpinkman
21-07-2015, 09:03
The cable was a special made up for my speakers - it wasn't expensive I can probably get another set straight of the reel. I was told it was off the reel and would burn in and my first thought was 'yeah right.' But it did and it was quite noticeable.
I wasn't thinking big bucks, let's say a pony. But you have to give me odds, say ten to one. That shouldn't be a problem seeing as you are so sure... :)
Martin - I don't mind half a monkey but your odds are evens - you are certain too remember! Forget the flutter for a minute. We'd argue over the controls (complete blind) and the travel expenses. How long is this burn in period? If its half an hour (the NVA claim) then you'll need to get it right first time, and to make a sensible control we need at least 5 fresh sets of cables. If its days, then one fresh set might do.
Consider your statement. "I compared my impression of the sound on one day with my impression of the sound on another quite different day, and I am sure that what changed was the speaker cable itself, even though physics can describe no way in which that could happen, and there are plenty of scientific explanations available relating to changes in human perception over time and familiarity which are well documented. There was no way for me to go back and check the "burned" cable with the "unburned" cable, but I am certain that the percieved difference in sound was entirely attributable to the speaker cable itself experiencing a permanent irreversible change in structure as a result of having a current pass through it over an extended period".
That makes most acts of religious faith look tentative and equivocal.
Just check for me - have another listen to the fresh cable, and confirm your impressions are unchanged.
In the last couple of years I've auditioned quite a few interconnect cables (A/B compared directly) and I haven't heard any evidence of burn-in occurring. Some of these cables were new and some had already been used. I've even tried specifically burning then in - didn't do anything subjectively that I could hear. Of course I suppose it's possible that I was just lucky and the cables I auditioned weren't subject to this phenomena - who knows.
This is the only time I have experienced this phenonoma, to my knowledge. I have bought new speaker cable before but was not aware of it 'burning in' hence my scepticism this time.
I could buy another set and do my own little test but that is going to cost me money and I am satisfied with what I heard - at least to the extent that I care.
I'm not going to get involved in pointless circular discussion - that's what PFM is for. Suffice it to say my position is
1) science is a very long way from knowing everything. I find the unquestioning worship of science that we increasingly see in this century to be far more disturbing than the worship of gods.
2) I am an experienced listener and am well aware of the various tricks the senses can play. I am familiar with the work of Descartes.
That is all :)
Oldpinkman
21-07-2015, 11:22
Yes - who knows. And fortunately it doesn't really matter. If cables seem to burn in , all well and good. But its a blessing that , like everything else that is claimed to "change with use" - they always burn in and never get worse
Imagine getting a beautiful sounding set of cables you audition in the shop, which after a few weeks experience burn out of the magnitude of the claimed burn in. What do you do? Take them back for a refund? :scratch:
Richard I know what you are saying and I have no disagreement with it.
nevertheless in this case and in this case alone in my experience there was a 'hash' of noise around the sound which gradually dissapated with about 5 or 6 hours of use.
if we were to do our little blind test then I would use Ray Manzerek's keyboard solo from Riders on The Storm. The keyboard cab is miked up, not DI and there is a slight halo of distortion in the sound which is presumbaly from the keyboard amp/cab. When I first installed the cable this halo of distortion was huge and quite noticeably 'wrong'. After a couple of hours it had reduced to -almost- the natural level on the recording. I'm happy to entertain alternatives to cable burn in to account for this, providing you can do better than 'you imagined it'.
I find the unquestioning worship of science that we increasingly see in this century to be far more disturbing than the worship of gods.
I'm personally not familar with any 'unquestioning worship' of science.
Surely a fundamental part of scientific research is that everything can be questioned, nothing is finite, we change our opinions constantly based on new evidence etc.
As for the rest of the statement, how many humans have been slaughtered by all the science worshippers in the last century...
Beobloke
21-07-2015, 11:58
I recommend burning your cables in over a six year period using a voltage of 240Vac and a current of approximately 3A for an hour at a time, once every 6 weeks or so, before using them.
Any suggestion that this highly scientific regime merely represents the past usage of the garden extension lead whose internal cores I used to re-wire my Leak 2075s after it had been used to power the lawn mower will be vigorously refuted.
It's my opinion that the rise of aetheism in the West has prompted a worship of science amongst those needing to replace one belief system with another. But let's not get into that here, you can start a thread in Abstract Chat if you really want to discuss it.
I agree that without people questioning the existing paradigms science would not progress.
The only audio cables I've heard with any sort of change, imagined or otherwise, have been the Klotz AC110 and MC5000. May be nothing at all, but I'm convinced of it in this case and with the AC110, I used a well used Mark Grant cable for comparison.
Over on the Harbeth User Group, there's a well pruned thread about the fact that the designer has on loan a respected US made Pro amp which sounded harder toned than his usual Quad pro model, so much so that at first, he felt he'd have to lower the tweeter level on the revised M40.2 crossover. One or two of us, including hifi dave, mentioned that some of us do these types of comparison every day and I chimed in regarding the emotional connection we DOMESTIC listeners have with the music (no performers in the next room). Complaints were then made about the subjectivism coming in and these posts were deleted, the designer now feeling he was deluded as he didn't do a double blind test with precisely matched levels, once again hinting that we in the trade are deluding people into believing these differences exist.
I think Harbeth have rather painted themselves into a corner with the rather extreme 'nothing matters other than the speakers' marketing stance they have developed. I realise that such a closed ethos appeals to a very conservative element of the market but it just doesn't bear close examination.
I recommend burning your cables in over a six year period using a voltage of 240Vac and a current of approximately 3A for an hour at a time, once every 6 weeks or so, before using them.
Any suggestion that this highly scientific regime merely represents the past usage of the garden extension lead whose internal cores I used to re-wire my Leak 2075s after it had been used to power the lawn mower will be vigorously refuted.
Did you find the quality of the cut improved with time? For an equal amount of growth, did you have to spend less time cutting the lawn on each successive occasion?
Did you find yellow clad lawnmower cable burnt in quicker than the orange clad cable?
Oldpinkman
21-07-2015, 16:02
Regarding science - it is an obvious truth that we have not arrived at the end of knowledge. We do not know everything. New things will be discovered. That is unarguable. To extend it to saying we don't understand how HiFi works well enough and cable burn in is possible is not automatically valid. We do not know everything in science, but whether we rely on newtonian gravity or Einstein's relativity we are pretty confident we won't make water flow uphill.
(Otherwise, sign me up as a promoter for the next downhill slalom water-ski championships)
The issue with cable burn-in is that by its very nature (it has a one way change over time) it is unlike any other listening evaluation we make. If I compare 2 speakers, I can switch back and forth between A and B. If I compare 2 speaker locations I can switch back and forth between A and B. 2 cartridges. 2 amplifiers. 2 cables.
But with burn-in claims nobody ever tries to switch back and forth between "burned in" and "raw". That is a fundamental issue - and whilst everyone is entitled to their experiences - it remains purely subjective as to what causes any differences heard in a burn-in scenario, since there is no way of going back and repeating the comparison (or rather nobody ever tries it properly - it is possible, but never attempted)
As I said before - just as well kit can be relied on to burn in and not deteriorate. I wonder when someone will develop a proper theory of why that unique direction of change exists. Perhaps it has something to do with the 2nd law of thermodynamics :doh:
walpurgis
21-07-2015, 16:05
My feeling is that if something moves, e.g. for example loudspeaker cones, then they can become more flexible with use.
That is undoubtedly correct. Transducer parts are required to move and are located by suspensions. Be it speakers, microphones or pickup cartridges, etc. The physical properties of these assemblies will change due to use, age, temperature variations and quite likely other reasons too.
I think Harbeth have rather painted themselves into a corner with the rather extreme 'nothing matters other than the speakers' marketing stance they have developed. I realise that such a closed ethos appeals to a very conservative element of the market but it just doesn't bear close examination.
I don't see it does them any harm at all. Harbeth don't make anything other than speakers, so saying 'any amp will do' (which is a simplification of their stance, but there you go) just means that they're not unnecessarily limiting their target audience to owners of a particular type of amp.
I think Harbeth have rather painted themselves into a corner with the rather extreme 'nothing matters other than the speakers' marketing stance they have developed. I realise that such a closed ethos appeals to a very conservative element of the market but it just doesn't bear close examination.
I don't disagree with you at all, but the fact remains that you and I (I suspect) and a heck of a lot of other people, can actually perceive some kind of difference in the way the music is presented to you when played through two good but different amps.
I don't disagree with you at all, but the fact remains that you and I (I suspect) and a heck of a lot of other people, can actually perceive some kind of difference in the way the music is presented to you when played through two good but different amps.
Yebbut the vast majority of people will never bother comparing two amps. I don't see such people as 'conservative', more as people who just want to listen to music without a lot of faffing about. To them, the idea of comparing amps (and stands, and cables, and plugs, and fuses) would seem simply barking mad. Harbeth have a similar no-nonsense approach to speaker stands; just get the tweeters to ear-level, job done.
awkwardbydesign
21-07-2015, 16:45
One new cable, one old cable. New one sounds worse than the old one. Burn it in, swap, and new cable sounds better than old cable. Swap back and old one sounds worse than new burnt in cable. Both Van Damme.
But with burn-in claims nobody ever tries to switch back and forth between "burned in" and "raw". That is a fundamental issue - and whilst everyone is entitled to their experiences - it remains purely subjective as to what causes any differences heard in a burn-in scenario, since there is no way of going back and repeating the comparison (or rather nobody ever tries it properly - it is possible, but never attempted)
Hello? Anyone there?
I think perhaps my hearing is not as good as some of the august Sounders on these pages.
I have never heard cable!
I have never heard a turntable, an amplifier nor speakers.
I am one of those buffoons who listens to music.
Cal me a cad and a bounder of the first water if you will, but I am happy with what I select, from the word go.
Oldpinkman
21-07-2015, 17:07
Hello? Anyone there?
Could you just try the unburned in cable against the first cable again, in case anything else was the cause of the difference? Er - no, you can't. You cannot go back and forth between the unburned cable and the burned. But if you are happy burn in works, I am ecstatic for you that it is always an improvement - and so are the people selling the cables - or you might look to return them on the basis they are less good than when you auditioned them
What a nightmare if they were better "raw" or "fresh". Would some people buy a regular stock of fresh cable they discard when it "Burns out"?
But they burn in in your system, according to your hearing- Result :thumbsup:
And they don't burn in in my system, but mercifully don't burn out either, so just stay as good or bad as they were the day I bought them - also result :thumbsup:
Yebbut the vast majority of people will never bother comparing two amps. I don't see such people as 'conservative', more as people who just want to listen to music without a lot of faffing about. To them, the idea of comparing amps (and stands, and cables, and plugs, and fuses) would seem simply barking mad. Harbeth have a similar no-nonsense approach to speaker stands; just get the tweeters to ear-level, job done.
I agree that not comparing amps isn't conservative but choosing to believe they aren't worth comparing, without even trying, is. Being aware of the difference between components isn't a 'faff', you aren't obliged to do an amplifier test every time you listen to a record. The speaker stand stance is a good example of Harbeth's head in the sand marketing line - raising the tweeter to the correct height is certainly not the only concern a stand must consider and that is blindingly obvious to anyone who has compared different stands of the same height - even using Harbeth speakers.
Oldpinkman
21-07-2015, 17:09
I think perhaps my hearing is not as good as some of the august Sounders on these pages.
I have never heard cable!
I have never heard a turntable, an amplifier nor speakers.
I am one of those buffoons who listens to music.
Cal me a cad and a bounder of the first water if you will, but I am happy with what I select, from the word go.
Not a cad or bounder, but blessed. More so than most - if all you hear is music, regardless of which turntable, amplifier, or speakers you have but dont hear - then you can play it on any old bit of kit that works, and don't need to go fussing around looking to see if one turntable you don't hear is any different from another turntable you don't hear.
I am less blessed - I find some equipment makes a difference to the music I enjoy ;)
awkwardbydesign
21-07-2015, 17:12
I am less blessed - I find some equipment makes a difference to the music I enjoy ;)
I wonder if the big blue writing helps him.
I think perhaps my hearing is not as good as some of the august Sounders on these pages.
I have never heard cable!
I have never heard a turntable, an amplifier nor speakers.
I am one of those buffoons who listens to music.
Cal me a cad and a bounder of the first water if you will, but I am happy with what I select, from the word go.
How odd! Wasn't it only five minutes ago that you were writing that you were new to all of this and would have plenty of questions... Apparently you have already formed opinions on these matters and are entirely happy with what you already own - job done!
How odd! Wasn't it only five minutes ago that you were writing that you were new to all of this and would have plenty of questions... Apparently you have already formed opinions on these matters and are entirely happy with what you already own - job done!
I have had record playing equipment.
It uses cable.
I am entitled to my opinion I think. Or are you saying I do not?
I also have some equipment in my study, ironically that uses cables and wires too.
I have had the equipment much longer than five minutes.
Re deteroration and the lack of it. We agree some components do burn in like capacitors and we also know that capacitors can degrade and need replacing. So is it really impossible that cables do not burn in and degrade as well. Who ha compared old cables with new? Cables with 1000 hours on them to same with 20000 hours. Would they sound different? The fact is these studies have not been done in the context of reoroducing recorded music for the human ear. Cables may degrade so gradualky and slowly we don't notice it.
I have had record playing equipment.
It uses cable.
I am entitled to my opinion I think. Or are you saying I do not?
I also have some equipment in my study, ironically that uses cables and wires too.
I have had the equipment much longer than five minutes.
You are entitled to your opinion I guess, though frankly it seems rather overly contradictory to be taken too seriously. In any case, I made no comment regarding whether you are entitled to hold an opinion and the relevance of you study's wiring seems similarly irrelevant (certainly not ironic) - you raise these issues, not I. If it entertains you to play a part then that's up to you - have fun; but you could be more consistent (which is what my post actually said).
Re deteroration and the lack of it. We agree some components do burn in like capacitors and we also know that capacitors can degrade and need replacing. So is it really impossible that cables do not burn in and degrade as well. Who ha compared old cables with new? Cables with 1000 hours on them to same with 20000 hours. Would they sound different? The fact is these studies have not been done in the context of reoroducing recorded music for the human ear. Cables may degrade so gradualky and slowly we don't notice it.
You really can't draw any worthwhile parallels between the possibility of 'cable burn in' and the ageing of electrolytic capacitors. Their is no undiscovered scientific process with regard to electrolytic capacitors and the reasons they age is well recognised and understood. A cable is really nothing like an electrolytic capacitors and if they are like any type of capacitor is is that they are more like a film capacitor - that don't age.
Not a cad or bounder, but blessed. More so than most - if all you hear is music, regardless of which turntable, amplifier, or speakers you have but dont hear - then you can play it on any old bit of kit that works, and don't need to go fussing around looking to see if one turntable you don't hear is any different from another turntable you don't hear.
I am less blessed - I find some equipment makes a difference to the music I enjoy ;)
Don't you have a car?
A personal stereo?
A portable player?
Have you 'never' enjoyed any of these? Perhaps High Fidelity equipment leads to....dare I say it..........musical snobbery!!!
You are entitled to your opinion I guess, though frankly it seems rather overly contradictory to be taken too seriously. In any case, I made no comment regarding whether you are entitled to hold an opinion and the relevance of you study's wiring seems similarly irrelevant (certainly not ironic) - you raise these issues, not I. If it entertains you to play a part then that's up to you - have fun; but you could be more consistent (which is what my post actually said).
Or, dear fellow user of the forum, I could be inconsistent if I wished to?
I wonder if the big blue writing helps him.
Yes sir it does, I am partially blind.
Oldpinkman
21-07-2015, 18:02
Re deteroration and the lack of it. We agree some components do burn in like capacitors and we also know that capacitors can degrade and need replacing. So is it really impossible that cables do not burn in and degrade as well. Who ha compared old cables with new? Cables with 1000 hours on them to same with 20000 hours. Would they sound different? The fact is these studies have not been done in the context of reoroducing recorded music for the human ear. Cables may degrade so gradualky and slowly we don't notice it.
For the record, I do not agree that capacitors burn in. I do agree that they wear out. So do other components. In the case of electrolytic capacitors, the cause is evaporation. I really struggle to believe a cable will degrade through evaporation. Some components are also affected by heat. Again - unless you have been burning your cable in on the 3 bar fire, that shouldn't be an issue
Burn in is for people who need to have something to worry about.
awkwardbydesign
21-07-2015, 19:44
You really can't draw any worthwhile parallels between the possibility of 'cable burn in' and the ageing of electrolytic capacitors. Their is no undiscovered scientific process with regard to electrolytic capacitors and the reasons they age is well recognised and understood. A cable is really nothing like an electrolytic capacitors and if they are like any type of capacitor is is that they are more like a film capacitor - that don't age.
Doh! :doh:
awkwardbydesign
21-07-2015, 19:46
Yes sir it does, I am partially blind.
And partially deaf, if you can't hear differences between turntables, etc?
BTW, you seem to be able to read everyone else's small typing. Try enlarging your own as you type, then reduce it before you post. You come across as shouting.
If you listen to chamber and light orchestral music, the 'difference' between some turntables is so small as to be insignificant. You wouldn't believe me if I said that a Thorens TD147 with Shure V15MR sounded all but identical to the master tapes of vintage Decca recordings transferred 'flat' to digital, but it did and probably still does...
Anyway, regarding old cables... Some 1970's audio cables, nothing fancy though, do suffer tarnished copper at their ends (any ends where air might get to them). I found this with the exit leads of a mid 70's Dual turntable I bought recently (a 601) and cutting an inch or two off the end (it had a DIN plug anyway) went back to pretty clean copper so I could solder a pair of phono plugs on (I've since replaced the whole cable with Van Damme Pro-Patch mic cable).
There was something about 'black' cables having a dye or something in the insulation (making them black coloured) that reacted with the copper over some years. I remember black Naim A4 speaker cable going off like this - the copper tarnished over the entire length and I'm sure the sound went off as well, but it was a long time ago now...
Interesting point about electrolytic caps. The lifetime of many of them is rated at say, 85 or 120 degrees. Bring these same components down to room temperatures and use them well within their voltage specifications and their lifetime can become hundreds of thousands of hours I read recently, not just tens of thousands (I must make notes of interesting sites to provide a reference).
Finally from me, just un-plugging a cable and plugging it back in again can make a slight difference if it's been in situ for a year or so. Any so-called cable burn in is smaller than this I think.
You sold Krell didn't you Dave? Take those same electrolytic caps and use them in a hot environment and watch their lifespan diminish.
When I rebuilt my Yamaha speakers I found that the internal cable had not only oxidised but, in places, showed traces of verdigris (so I replaced it). This level of ageing is quite a different thing to cable 'burn in' though.
Interesting point about electrolytic caps. The lifetime of many of them is rated at say, 85 or 120 degrees. Bring these same components down to room temperatures and use them well within their voltage specifications and their lifetime can become hundreds of thousands of hours I read recently, not just tens of thousands (I must make notes of interesting sites to provide a reference).
Wikipedia offers a very lengthy article about capacitors I've found useful ;)
This, for instance, was completely unknown to me but worth bearing in mind when buying old gear that has been 'carefully stored in the attic' (see the last sentence)....
----
Electrolytic capacitors use an aluminum or tantalum plate with an oxide dielectric layer. The second electrode is a liquid electrolyte, connected to the circuit by another foil plate. Electrolytic capacitors offer very high capacitance but suffer from poor tolerances, high instability, gradual loss of capacitance especially when subjected to heat, and high leakage current. Poor quality capacitors may leak electrolyte, which is harmful to printed circuit boards. The conductivity of the electrolyte drops at low temperatures, which increases equivalent series resistance. While widely used for power-supply conditioning, poor high-frequency characteristics make them unsuitable for many applications. Electrolytic capacitors will self-degrade if unused for a period (around a year), and when full power is applied may short circuit, permanently damaging the capacitor and usually blowing a fuse or causing failure of rectifier diodes (for instance, in older equipment, arcing in rectifier tubes).
------
you shoulld bring gear thats not been used for a long time up slowly to max volts using a variac
You sold Krell didn't you Dave? Take those same electrolytic caps and use them in a hot environment and watch their lifespan diminish.
When I rebuilt my Yamaha speakers I found that the internal cable had not only oxidised but, in places, showed traces of verdigris (so I replaced it). This level of ageing is quite a different thing to cable 'burn in' though.
We can see leaking caps in the failing Krell amps today, even FPB ones :eek: - and I think you saw a KSA250 first hand that had blown its caps. I have a KSA50S coming in the next few weeks with a humming channel and looking at the rows of caps etc, I'm dreading seeing it inside. Can't afford a £1k Ab Sounds service though, so shall have to take it step by step...
On the other hand, I've tested a good few of the 7,000uF Mallory 'Computer Grade' caps that came out of my cold running Crown D-60's (I put larger value ones in for little subjective benefit) and ALL six of them measured above spec after thirty five years or so... Two of them had done ten hours a day or more for most of their lives, the other amp had unknown use.
you shoulld bring gear thats not been used for a long time up slowly to max volts using a variac
Funny you should say that Grant; I recently brought a variable regulated supply back into service that I built from a kit back in the late '70s and that I know I haven't used for at least 20 years.
Worked perfectly from the word go and I'm using it to drive my modified Quad 33 on a daily basis (with great results)
Since reading that paragraph in Wiki I realise that what I am experiencing is a hallucination and I should be scraping the ashes off the floor :lol:
variacs, pah! Everyone knows the SOP for powering up old/suspect amps is to hide behind the couch and use your 'reaching broom' to turn the power on....
Oldpinkman
23-07-2015, 08:35
variacs, pah! Everyone knows the SOP for powering up old/suspect amps is to hide behind the couch and use your 'reaching broom' to turn the power on....
I would say "usually they just fail to work", but when I had a go at getting the Pip 2 boards working after 20 years in Owens loft, I managed to get smoke! (Tant beads had failed and were short circuit on the power supply). I don't think using a variac would have helped much - especially as I had powered from 4 PP9's :)
walpurgis
23-07-2015, 08:53
variacs, pah! Everyone knows the SOP for powering up old/suspect amps is to hide behind the couch and use your 'reaching broom' to turn the power on....
Exactly! :) It's my tried and tested method. I've only had a small fire once. :lol:
if you've not had at least one fire then you're not a proper enthusiast (or you're quite new to the whole thing). :)
MikeMusic
23-07-2015, 11:45
I'm with you Patrick
There is usually an improvement on kit and cables as they mature
I cut it to length and stripped each end and fitted some totally brilliant Mitchel plugs on each end. http://i.imgur.com/CF5sGbs.jpg They really give a solid grip to the wire http://i.imgur.com/T9UvZFr.jpg They are now in my downstairs system http://i.imgur.com/xa5cZK8.jpg
Van Damme looks like the stuff Black and Decker use, except for the fact that it is blue instead of orange.
Van Damme looks like the stuff Black and Decker use, except for the fact that it is blue instead of orange.
Could be the greatest cheap tweek one ever makes!!! http://i.imgur.com/lQIIl9S.jpg
walpurgis
25-07-2015, 14:41
Are you going to tell us if there are audible differences?
Those Michell plugs are a few generations old I'd say.
awkwardbydesign
25-07-2015, 17:26
And the gold plating in the cable opening is frequently very poor. So you may screwing your cables down onto years of oxidisation!
Are you going to tell us if there are audible differences?
Those Michell plugs are a few generations old I'd say.
I have not burnt the cable in yet Walpurgis.
The plugs on the other hand are well burnt in and a known quantity. Not mine originally, a friend gave me them when he went on to something else.
And the gold plating in the cable opening is frequently very poor. So you may screwing your cables down onto years of oxidisation!
There is no gold plating Awkward By Design.
Oxidation cannot take place because with the use of two pairs of plyers, the metal and copper wire is absolutely air tight. When I removed the Q.E.D. silver from the Mitchels it was still shining brightly.
walpurgis
25-07-2015, 18:22
I have not burnt the cable in yet Walpurgis.
Cable 'burn in' is in my opinion a fallacy. It does not exist. Your cables are producing as good results now as they ever will.
Cable 'burn in' is in my opinion a fallacy. It does not exist. Your cables are producing as good results now as they ever will.
I'm losing my mind............
I thought the hierarchy had decided that it does burn in?!
You know what Walpurgis, I got so involved with the excellent Gazpacho - Demon album, I just enjoyed it.
I forgot to listen to the cable, I am hopeless am I not?
walpurgis
25-07-2015, 19:15
You know what Walpurgis, I got so involved with the excellent Gazpacho - Demon album, I just enjoyed it.
I forgot to listen to the cable, I am hopeless am I not?
This is a good sign. The cable did not draw attention to itself. I'd bet that if you now reinstated the QED, you would soon become aware of it's less desirable influence.
This is a good sign. The cable did not draw attention to itself. I'd bet that if you now reinstated the QED, you would soon become aware of it's less desirable influence.
I was going to give it a fortnight and then switch back.
That is the usual way is it not?
Cable 'burn in' is in my opinion a fallacy. It does not exist. Your cables are producing as good results now as they ever will.
I agree.
walpurgis
25-07-2015, 20:14
I was going to give it a fortnight and then switch back.
That is the usual way is it not?
There are a host of opinions, but no "usual way". As I said, I reckon they will sound at their best now.
Don't expect 'drama' from decent cables. They should not draw attention. It's poor cables that do that. In all the wrong ways.
Cable 'burn in' is in my opinion a fallacy. It does not exist. Your cables are producing as good results now as they ever will.
I too, haven't heard any improvement with time, nor would I expect any. However there are some whose hearing I respect, who have noticed an improvement with time. This phenomenon is, for convenience, called 'burn in'. I can't think of any physical explanation that would fully explain why this might occur; but a lack of explanation does not negate what some honestly observe. To dismiss it a 'fallacy' may be premature.
I could try listening to some 35 year old QED 79 strand speaker cable against some virgin cable. But the lengths involved would be < 1 metre, and I honestly don't think I would be able to hear any difference; so with that feeble excuse, I'm not going to bother to try.
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