Turntable Shelf

[MarginWalker]

Hi all,

Is there any reason why something like this....

http://www.mastershelf.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=550

Would work any less well than one of the expensive purpose built turntable wall shelves?

Thanks,
Phil

[Spectral Morn]

Hi all,

Is there any reason why something like this....

http://www.mastershelf.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=550

Would work any less well than one of the expensive purpose built turntable wall shelves?

Thanks,
Phil

Doesn't look anywhere near strong enough. You need something like this http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/pro-ject-wallmount-it-1-wall-shelf?gclid=CMGG2I_p5sYCFSTItAod5_AJTQ


Regards Neil

[Macca]

weight capacity of 30 kilos, who has a deck that heavy?

Lots of folk probably...otherwise I don't see why it would not be fine.

[awkwardbydesign]

Leverage on the fixings, and possible resonance issues due to the cantilever design.

[Macca]

I've not seen a TT wall shelf that was not a cantilever design. What other way to do it? And if the fixings are genuinally rated for 30 kilo, which it claims, how can that matter?

[walpurgis]

It may look good, but I wouldn't use it. It's only as strong as its wall fixings. Go for something with a bit of triangulation and multiple wall fixings to spread the load.

[struth]

ive got a few floating shelves and they are strong but that comes out a fair bit. must put incredible stresses on the wall and the part of the shelf in the groove. see no reason why it wouldnt work as the tt wont be anywhere nere its claimed limits. one previso is that you can get it level. due to design a mil error at wall means quite a bit off plumb at outside so if your wall is perfectly level the! ok.

[Marco]

I've ordered one of these in maple (with matching isolation platform), which I'm going to use to house an Audio Grail-modded Garrard 301 or Thorens TD124, keeping the Techy on my Mana racks... Should be fun! ;)

http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/hifi-racks/7/podium-platform

Marco.

[Barry]

I've ordered one of these in maple (with matching isolation platform), which I'm going to use to house an Audio Grail-modded Garrard 301 or Thorens TD124, keeping the Techy on my Mana racks... Should be fun! ;)

http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/hifi-racks/7/podium-platform

Marco.

Mmmm! Do tell! :)

[Marco]

Lol... Not bought yet, but imminent! First stage is to provide somewhere to put it ;)

Floor space is nil (for any more racks), so a wall shelf was the only way :)

Marco.

[karma67]

I've ordered one of these in maple (with matching isolation platform), which I'm going to use to house an Audio Grail-modded Garrard 301 or Thorens TD124, keeping the Techy on my Mana racks... Should be fun! ;)

http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/hifi-racks/7/podium-platform

Marco.
god i wish i still had my woodworking workshop! id make a fortune. £100 for a bit of wood with 4 spikes in it!

[Marco]

Lol... These are solid wood, not laminated. I wish it was £100 - try £540 (with the matching isolation platform) in the finish and size I want! :eek:

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

I've ordered one of these in maple (with matching isolation platform), which I'm going to use to house an Audio Grail-modded Garrard 301 or Thorens TD124, keeping the Techy on my Mana racks... Should be fun! ;)

http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/hifi-racks/7/podium-platform

Marco.

I have the basic version in oak, for my TD-124, but have not yet had the courage to exercise my DIY skills and attach the thing to the wall (soft Norfolk red bricks etc .................... ).


Lol... Not bought yet, but imminent! First stage is to provide somewhere to put it

Floor space is nil (for any more racks), so a wall shelf was the only way

Marco.

If you do get a TD-124, my advice is not to pay through the nose for a 'restored' example, nor to have one uber-restored, or be tempted by very expensive Swiss replacement parts and upgrades (although I have to say that the Swissonor platters are very good). The TD-124 may be complicated, but fettling one is actually quite straightforward and there are clever people in the UK who can do the non-DIY servicing at modest cost. For example, I've just had the standard main bearing re-polished and serviced, and it's every bit as good as Schopper's new one, at roughly 1/20 of the cost. I've recently been working with a local rubber company and we found out that most old-stock idler wheels (unless seriously bent) can be very carefully re-finished, and made as quiet as these things can ever be. We're still looking at whether there is a 'better' way of making new idlers, but since old ones can be rejuvenated for relatively little cost, there's probably no point in investing in tooling for such a project. I'm happy to advise you directly, if you wish!

[Stratmangler]

I have the basic version in oak, for my TD-124, but have not yet had the courage to exercise my DIY skills and attach the thing to the wall (soft Norfolk red bricks etc .................... ).

These should see you right http://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-rawlbolts-m8-x-80mm-pack-of-5/46792#product_additional_details_container

[karma67]

Lol... These are solid wood, not laminated. I wish it was £100 - try £540 (with the matching isolation platform) in the finish and size I want! :eek:

Marco.
i was refering to the isolation platform,looking at the pics its all small bits of wood glued together,if it was one solid plank it would warp.

[Firebottle]

Not quite sure where you put the record Marco :scratch:

http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/images/podium-platform-4-l.jpg

:)

[Gordon Steadman]

i was refering to the isolation platform,looking at the pics its all small bits of wood glued together,if it was one solid plank it would warp.

It's a great way of using up offcuts from kitchen worktop.:eyebrows:

Available in oak and bamboo as well. I would recommend a bit in bamboo from IKEA.

[Ammonite Audio]

These should see you right http://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-rawlbolts-m8-x-80mm-pack-of-5/46792#product_additional_details_container

Thanks but such bolts are not compatible with the Podium shelf. Long 5mm screws and ordinary brown rawlplugs are suitable.

[Spectral Morn]

Leverage on the fixings, and possible resonance issues due to the cantilever design.

Yes and it can't be levelled. Most walls are not straight.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

Not quite sure where you put the record Marco :scratch:

http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/images/podium-platform-4-l.jpg

:)

At least that can be levelled.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

It's a great way of using up offcuts from kitchen worktop.:eyebrows:

Available in oak and bamboo as well. I would recommend a bit in bamboo from IKEA.

The Ikea chopping boards made from laminated bamboo are supposed to be very good isolation platforms.


Regards Neil

[karma67]

there only £8 as well!

[Gordon Steadman]

there only £8 as well!


Pretty cheap for foo:lol:

We have one in our utility room and I nicked it from under Ronnie's nose just about as she was about to do unmentionable things with the inside of a chicken. Tried it under my main TT and it made no difference at all but the thing is hugely heavy and resists me moving it let alone a few vibrations. However, under the Sansui DD and the Dual 1019, it seemed to remove a tiny bit of fuzz from the treble.

Well worth a try at that price. I'm impressed that someone has managed to make a business out of repurposing worktop.

[karma67]

we seem to be on the same wave length gordon. :)

[Marco]

i was refering to the isolation platform,looking at the pics its all small bits of wood glued together,if it was one solid plank it would warp.

Yeah, defo! It looks like quality in the flesh, though; like a nice piece of furniture, and way better than chopping boards or anything from Ikea. I don't mind paying for something if I consider it worth it, and looks matter with something such as a turntable shelf.

For me, it's a case of do the job right or not at all, so I won't cut corners :)

Marco.

[Marco]

At least that can be levelled.


Indeed, which is one of the reasons why I bought it. The isolation platform looks cool, too! I also went for lockable stainless steel spikes :)

Marco.

[Marco]

If you do get a TD-124, my advice is not to pay through the nose for a 'restored' example, nor to have one uber-restored, or be tempted by very expensive Swiss replacement parts and upgrades (although I have to say that the Swissonor platters are very good). The TD-124 may be complicated, but fettling one is actually quite straightforward and there are clever people in the UK who can do the non-DIY servicing at modest cost. For example, I've just had the standard main bearing re-polished and serviced, and it's every bit as good as Schopper's new one, at roughly 1/20 of the cost. I've recently been working with a local rubber company and we found out that most old-stock idler wheels (unless seriously bent) can be very carefully re-finished, and made as quiet as these things can ever be. We're still looking at whether there is a 'better' way of making new idlers, but since old ones can be rejuvenated for relatively little cost, there's probably no point in investing in tooling for such a project. I'm happy to advise you directly, if you wish!

Nice one and noted :)

I'm not sure which route I'd go with a TD124, but I'd certainly take my time and research things properly, before taking the plunge. It took me three years of such before deciding to invest in a fully-modded Techy from KAB!

However, one of these is probably tempting me most at the moment (in a suitable plinth, which I'd use with a vintage SPU and an original Ortofon arm or Thomas Schick):

uodEUcEWjEw

a) I love the rather 'sober and business-like' looks.

b) Once in a suitable plinth and used with a quality tonearm and cartridge, it's 'plug & play'. I quite fancy that after having gone down the tweaking route with the Techy [bearings, platters, PSUs, etc], so this time it would be nice not to faff about like that! :cool:

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Having spent a few days with an Inspire Enigma (Lenco) I personally could not live with the drive noise, so if Thorens and Garrard idler drives have similar noise issues then I would pass on buying one.

I know I am very fussy re extraneous noise in the listening room, so buzzing transformers, fans, or hard drives are annoyances and a TT that creates any noise through its working, would be a no no for me and I love the look of the TD124 mk2 on a Schopper plinth.



Regards Neil

[Ali Tait]

Can't hear a thing from my Garrard, even with my ear right up to the plinth.

[Spectral Morn]

Can't hear a thing from my Garrard, even with my ear right up to the plinth.

Interesting


Regards Neil

[The Black Adder]

The TD124 is uber cool! :cool:

[Barry]

The TD124 is uber cool! :cool:

Agreed - I have three of them, and provided they are maintained and routinely serviced, none of them make any noise.

[Ammonite Audio]

That's interesting - I've always thought that the Lencos are the quietest and most civilised of the idlers. The old TD-124 can be made to be very quiet, although never exactly silent, but that does require regular maintenance to clean the pulleys and to apply a bit of talc to the belt. My Kenwood KD-990 is characterised by a quite wonderful lack of noise, which is quite seductive, but then again the TD-124 does play music most wonderfully, so I forgive it for making a tiny bit of noise. Having heard a few high-end decks, the most memorable has to be one particular gem of a TD-124 (not mine) which now resides Chez Tom (Montesquieu). Don't ever sell that deck, Tom!


Having spent a few days with an Inspire Enigma (Lenco) I personally could not live with the drive noise, so if Thorens and Garrard idler drives have similar noise issues then I would pass on buying one.

I know I am very fussy re extraneous noise in the listening room, so buzzing transformers, fans, or hard drives are annoyances and a TT that creates any noise through its working, would be a no no for me and I love the look of the TD124 mk2 on a Schopper plinth.



Regards Neil

[walpurgis]

Can't hear a thing from my Garrard, even with my ear right up to the plinth.

You really should turn it on first though Ali. :D

[walpurgis]

That's interesting - I've always thought that the Lencos are the quietest and most civilised of the idlers.

The Lencos I've owned (75/78/88/99) have been very quiet. My Garrards (301 silver/301 white/401) were not noisy either, but clunkier to use. Never used a TD124. Heard a good few though and was unaware of noise.

[The Black Adder]

Agreed - I have three of them, and provided they are maintained and routinely serviced, none of them make any noise.

lol... that's just greedy! :)

Noise? what's that then? Same here, it's dead quiet.

Agreed, I'm now in to my 5th year with mine since it came back from Schopper... it's not missed a beat. And maintenance is a doddle.

[Marco]

Having spent a few days with an Inspire Enigma (Lenco) I personally could not live with the drive noise, so if Thorens and Garrard idler drives have similar noise issues then I would pass on buying one.


I always see stuff like that said about noise... Maybe I've just been very fortunate, but I reckon I've heard more than 40 different idlers over the years, either at shows, in other people's systems or in my own, and NEVER have I heard any amount of extraneous noise that would be an issue to my listening enjoyment (and I also have a low tolerance level for such).

Therefore, based on that not inconsiderable experience (and that of Joe, Geoff, Ali, Barry and many other idler T/T owners I lknow), I'd have to declare it [for me] a non-issue.

Marco.

[The Black Adder]

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/53be2b2ae4b0a5397e8a1697/556d575fe4b054895f2b2faf/557505f1e4b0551508cc31a3/1434108108130/IMG_5061+1300+web+copy.JPG?format=750w

Love this plinth and arm board by http://www.artisanfidelity.com/new-products/thorens-td124

[Marco]

Me too, although I think the arm (aesthetically speaking) is an abomination, as is the blingy record weight... You need a vintage arm on vintage T/T! Instead, close your eyes and imagine an SME 3012 there instead...

Marco.

[The Black Adder]

Me too, although I think the arm (aesthetically speaking) is an abomination... You need a vintage arm on vintage T/T! Instead, close your eyes and imagine an SME 3012 there instead...

Marco.

+1 to that :)

[The Black Adder]

...and this is something that's simply wrong.

YUK!

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue79/images/32-CTC-301-SR-with-brass-ch.jpg

[struth]

Very Lush

[awkwardbydesign]

I've not seen a TT wall shelf that was not a cantilever design. What other way to do it?
http://hifipig.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Support.jpg
You did ask.

[Marco]

...and this is something that's simply wrong.

YUK!

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue79/images/32-CTC-301-SR-with-brass-ch.jpg

OMG, my worst nightmare!!!! :eek:

It's giving me a headache just looking at it......

Marco.

[walpurgis]

That's horrible. Surprised the arm isn't in gold too. :rolleyes:

Phrases like 'tart's handbag' spring to mind.

[daytona600]

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0279/4137/files/WaxRax_LP-H_vinyl_stereo_console_NEW_2015_grande.jpg?8733145 370900588144

Cool TD124 Vintage Set Up

[MarginWalker]

Well, I'm still not sure if the cheapo shelf will work, but I do now definitely want to try out a TD124!

[Marco]

Dat's da wonderful effect of AoS thread drift! ;)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Dat's da wonderful effect of AoS thread drift! ;)

Marco.

Doesn't seem to happen on 'Three Little Words' though. :D

[walpurgis]

I do now definitely want to try out a TD124!

Ah. That'll make a dent in your wallet. :)

[Marco]

Doesn't seem to happen on 'Three Little Words' though. :D

Arf! You're too busy grabbing some tissues to notice.... :eyebrows:

Anyway, here's a nice transformation of a 301, by Audio Grail. Thus fully restored is the only way I'd ever use one:

VzGOeFtsAy8

Marco.

[struth]

Loverly work they do. worth the money you pay to them compared to the fortunes spent on tired out ebay versions.

[Marco]

Exactly... With something that old, I'd want the peace of mind of knowing that it's totally sorted and performing as good as new, so that I could forget all about the mechanics and simply enjoy listening to music! :)

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

Loverly work they do. worth the money you pay to them compared to the fortunes spent on tired out ebay versions.

That's a matter of taste. I'd rather have a mechanically sound, well-fettled but cosmetically 'careworn' example than something belonging in a concours exhibition.

[Marco]

Not sure I get that, Hugo... All Audio Grail do is lovingly restore Garrards to as new (or if not better) than new condition, and that's done 'from the ground up', both in an engineering sense and cosmetically. They are genuine experts in their particular field.

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

...and this is something that's simply wrong.

YUK!

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue79/images/32-CTC-301-SR-with-brass-ch.jpg

A total dog's dinner without any regard for the visual impact of the veneer. Totally unbalanced. Bling for the blind. Apart from that it's OK.

[Spectral Morn]

Not sure I get that, Hugo... All Audio Grail do is lovingly restore Garrards to as new (or if not better) than new condition, and that's done 'from the ground up', both in an engineering sense and cosmetically. They are genuine experts in their particular field.

Marco.

I would prefer a traditional business model with fixed pricing rather than an auction model, with only occasional fixed prices.


Regards Neil

[Ammonite Audio]

Not sure I get that, Hugo... All Audio Grail do is lovingly restore Garrards to as new (or if not better) than new condition, and that's done 'from the ground up', both in an engineering sense and cosmetically. They are genuine experts in their particular field.

Marco.

I don't deny that at all; and fine to them and anyone who wants that sort of 'better than new' finish. But, these old players are essentially quite simple, with straightforward, old-fashioned engineering, and it's not necessary to go to those lengths to get a record player that sounds superb.

I could strip my TD-124 and get all the linkages etched and plated, the rusty steel band replaced, the chassis blasted, scratches filled and re-sprayed, but it would not make one jot of difference to how it sounds, nor how it feels in use.

[awkwardbydesign]

I don't deny that at all; and fine to them and anyone who wants that sort of 'better than new' finish. But, these old players are essentially quite simple, with straightforward, old-fashioned engineering, and it's not necessary to go to those lengths to get a record player that sounds superb.

I could strip my TD-124 and get all the linkages etched and plated, the rusty steel band replaced, the chassis blasted, scratches filled and re-sprayed, but it would not make one jot of difference to how it sounds, nor how it feels in use.

But bearings, motors, idlers, springs, etc. will!

[Ammonite Audio]

But bearings, motors, idlers, springs, etc. will!

That is exactly what I'm saying - it's possible to properly renovate all those things, at modest cost, while retaining a 'careworn' look (which I prefer). It's all down to preference, and we all have different tastes.

[awkwardbydesign]

That is exactly what I'm saying - it's possible to properly renovate all those things, at modest cost, while retaining a 'careworn' look (which I prefer). It's all down to preference, and we all have different tastes.
If you ask Matt at AudioGrail I'm sure he will do that. But he SELLS his best work.

[Ammonite Audio]

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not casting nasturtiums on any aspect of Audio Grail's work, which is clearly of the highest order; and I wish them well - they are in business to do business and know their market.

What I am saying is that the essential mechanicals of these old idler decks can be refurbished to that very standard, without the cosmetic polish, and for relatively modest cost. Just ask Martin Bastin.

[Marco]

I don't deny that at all; and fine to them and anyone who wants that sort of 'better than new' finish. But, these old players are essentially quite simple, with straightforward, old-fashioned engineering, and it's not necessary to go to those lengths to get a record player that sounds superb.

I could strip my TD-124 and get all the linkages etched and plated, the rusty steel band replaced, the chassis blasted, scratches filled and re-sprayed, but it would not make one jot of difference to how it sounds, nor how it feels in use.

Fair enough, Hugo. In that respect, I'm different. I love the idea of knowing that my vintage T/T has been lovingly restored by an expert, down to the last detail - and the joy of handling/using it afterwards would (for me ) be priceless.

It would be the exact same if I bought a vintage car - I'd want the same attention to detail lavished on it, as that would add greatly to the joy of owning and driving it! :cool:

Marco.

P.S Also, because I'd be looking for a hammerite grey finished 301, I don't know of anyone else other than AG who do them.

[Ammonite Audio]

We will have to differ on the classic car front! I would love to own a Frazer Nash TT Replica, but would most definitely want it to have all of its original patina, burnishing and signs of 80 years' use, but with the mechanical bits properly fettled. But, there are plenty of car collectors who get excited over the artificially polished and preened cars at Pebble Beach each year. Each to their own.

[struth]

Both routes are perfectly valid to me. Just what light s yir fire

[Marco]

But, there are plenty of car collectors who get excited over the artificially polished and preened cars at Pebble Beach each year. Each to their own.

Indeed, but I'm not sure what you mean by "artificially polished"...? If a professional car restorer has managed to sympathetically restore a vintage car to (genuinely) 'as new' condition, and some of these guys have the talent to do precisely that - what's not to like? :scratch:

It's just like having an old painting or piece of antique furniture professionally restored - and the results can be stunning! :)

Marco.

[Barry]

Fair enough, Hugo. In that respect, I'm different. I love the idea of knowing that my vintage T/T has been lovingly restored by an expert, down to the last detail - and the joy of handling/using it afterwards would (for me ) be priceless.

It would be the exact same if I bought a vintage car - I'd want the same attention to detail lavished on it, as that would add greatly to the joy of owning and driving it! :cool:

Marco.

P.S Also, because I'd be looking for a hammerite grey finished 301, I don't know of anyone else other than AG who do them.

Good Man - much better (IMO) than those ugly cream or buttermilk versions.

[DarrenHW]

These should see you right http://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-rawlbolts-m8-x-80mm-pack-of-5/46792#product_additional_details_container

Rawl bolts are very good, but they are chunky, work best with the application of a little epoxy and I've seen plenty poorly installed that can be pulled straight out of the wall. I used to use them a lot but for the last five years I've been using Thunderbolts: http://www.unifix.co.uk/thunderbolt.
They are very strong, as discrete as a screw and a doddle to install as you just drill a hole and screw them in. I use 4 x 100m M5 Thunderbolts to hang my Target wall shelf upon which 2 pieces of slate (1 x 30mm, 1 x 45mm) and 40mm beech block sit under my 401 (50 - 60 Kg load).

I've used them for all sorts, hanging gate posts, more shelves than I care to remember and most recently to support 100Kg+ sandstone sills / lintels. The only substrate I would not recommend using them in is glazed Victorian era brick, the Thunderbolts tap into the brick / block as there's so little give in this type of brick they tend to blow.

[Marco]

Hi Darren,


I used to use them a lot but for the last five years I've been using Thunderbolts: http://www.unifix.co.uk/thunderbolt.
They are very strong, as discrete as a screw and a doddle to install as you just drill a hole and screw them in. I use 4 x 100m M5 Thunderbolts to hang my Target wall shelf upon which 2 pieces of slate (1 x 30mm, 1 x 45mm) and 40mm beech block sit under my 401 (50 - 60 Kg load).


Which ones, from here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xunifix+th underbolt.TRS0&_nkw=unifix+thunderbolt&_sacat=0

...would you recommend for putting up the turntable shelf I'm getting: http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/hifi-racks/7/podium-platform

Marco.

P.S Perhaps you would fit it for me, if offered the lure of Del's finest Tiramisu? :eyebrows: ;)

[DSJR]

If I could afford to buy and refurbish a Garrard 301 or 401, I'd look no further than Loricraft, who really know and understand these designs from the Garrard engineers who worked on them.

[awkwardbydesign]

We will have to differ on the classic car front! I would love to own a Frazer Nash TT Replica, but would most definitely want it to have all of its original patina, burnishing and signs of 80 years' use, but with the mechanical bits properly fettled. But, there are plenty of car collectors who get excited over the artificially polished and preened cars at Pebble Beach each year. Each to their own.

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds far more unnatural and posey than having the the whole job done. A bit like antique collectors who gush over the dirt and grime on a piece of furniture. Do it all or leave it alone, I say. Unless it's a cost issue, like my bike!

[Marco]

If I could afford to buy and refurbish a Garrard 301 or 401, I'd look no further than Loricraft, who really know and understand these designs from the Garrard engineers who worked on them.

I'll probably use them for the plinth - the best of both worlds! :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds far more unnatural and posey than having the the whole job done. A bit like antique collectors who gush over the dirt and grime on a piece of furniture. Do it all or leave it alone, I say. Unless it's a cost issue, like my bike!

I'm one of those who disagree with this. There is nothing worse to my eye than an old piece of furniture that looks like a plastic modern one. Fix structural problems sure but why make an old piece look like new? If you want new - buy new and leave the old stuff to us posers.

Anyone that asks me to do that is pointed towards another craftsman. There is a difference between grime and dirt and the faded patina of old wood. Turps, wax and elbow grease is more than enough.

[Ammonite Audio]

I really must get around to putting that turntable wall shelf up!

[Marco]

I'm one of those who disagree with this. There is nothing worse to my eye than an old piece of furniture that looks like a plastic modern one. Fix structural problems sure but why make an old piece look like new? If you want new - buy new and leave the old stuff to us posers.

Anyone that asks me to do that is pointed towards another craftsman. There is a difference between grime and dirt and the faded patina of old wood. Turps, wax and elbow grease is more than enough.

I completely agree, Gordon! To spoil such desirable patination, by employing those types of methods, is rather vulgar. However, getting something professionally restored, sympathetically, to near original condition (such as I'm advocating with a Garrard 301) is a different matter entirely :)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

I'm one of those who disagree with this. There is nothing worse to my eye than an old piece of furniture that looks like a plastic modern one. Fix structural problems sure but why make an old piece look like new? If you want new - buy new and leave the old stuff to us posers.

Anyone that asks me to do that is pointed towards another craftsman. There is a difference between grime and dirt and the faded patina of old wood. Turps, wax and elbow grease is more than enough.

Yes I agree.

I have an interest in and collect antique lighting, but after I clean items I leave brass and copper to dull down. There is nothing worse to my eye than polished brass or copper that has been varnished. These items have no patina and look new - yuck.

However re audio bits I prefer them clean and looking as new as possible.


Regards Neil

[Gordon Steadman]

I completely agree, Gordon! To spoil such desirable patination, by employing those types of methods, is rather vulgar. However, getting something professionally restored, sympathetically, to near original condition (such as I'm advocating with a Garrard 301) is a different matter entirely :)

Marco.

Obviously, with wood, as with all things, the original condition would have been shiny and flawless (ish) However, to my mind, wood improves considerably with age and use. As far as finish to unseen components is concerned, I am of the French mind rather than the British. So long as the outside is good and the inside works properly.....who cares what the inside looks like?

I wonder where bling begins:scratch:

[Gordon Steadman]

I really must get around to putting that turntable wall shelf up!

What the hell has that got to do with anything:)

[Marco]

Obviously, with wood, as with all things, the original condition would have been shiny and flawless (ish) However, to my mind, wood improves considerably with age and use. As far as finish to unseen components is concerned, I am of the French mind rather than the British. So long as the outside is good and the inside works properly.....who cares what the inside looks like?

I wonder where bling begins:scratch:

Yes, I agree with you about wood. Nice wood (with a lovely grain) generally improves in appearance with age. However, returning to having a 50-year old turntable professionally restored, that's rather a different matter.

My view there is that, aesthetically, I'd like the T/T to look as good as new, but not 'tarted up'; there is a difference! ;)

Internally (mechanically speaking), I'd like it functioning 100% to its original spec, and if some improvements can be made there, in terms of certain ageing components being replaced with items that are better, bearing in mind that some things have moved on in the last 50 years, then why not have that done, too? :)

Marco.

[Marco]

I have an interest in and collect antique lighting, but after I clean items I leave brass and copper to dull down. There is nothing worse to my eye than polished brass or copper that has been varnished. These items have no patina and look new - yuck.

However re audio bits I prefer them clean and looking as new as possible.


+1 :)

Marco.

[The Black Adder]

Nice wood (with a lovely grain)

Bet you say that to all the girls... lol

[Ammonite Audio]

Yes, I agree with you about wood. Nice wood (with a lovely grain) generally improves in appearance with age. However, returning to having a 50-year old turntable professionally restored, that's rather a different matter.

My view there is that, aesthetically, I'd like the T/T to look as good as new, but not 'tarted up'; there is a difference! ;)

Internally (mechanically speaking), I'd like it functioning 100% to its original spec, and if some improvements can be made there, in terms of certain ageing components being replaced with items that are better, bearing in mind that some things have moved on in the last 50 years, then why not have that done, too? :)

Marco.

You'd be surprised how little things have improved over 50 years in that respect! Witness the various 'improved' Garrard ceramic bearing solutions that end up doing damage to the shaft.


So long as the outside is good and the inside works properly.....who cares what the inside looks like?

My feelings exactly!

[Marco]

You'd be surprised how little things have improved over 50 years in that respect! Witness the various 'improved' Garrard ceramic bearing solutions that end up doing damage to the shaft.


Yup sometimes that's the case, but certain parts wear out and need replaced, or these days are simply no-brainer better [I'm thinking here specifically about electrical components]. However, unless necessary, I'll be leaving the bearing well alone! :)

Marco.

P.S Sorry I was out when you phoned. Anytime from 2pm-5pm would be great :cool:

[Jimbo]

The Lencos I've owned (75/78/88/99) have been very quiet. My Garrards (301 silver/301 white/401) were not noisy either, but clunkier to use. Never used a TD124. Heard a good few though and was unaware of noise.

I turned on my Lenco GL75 the other night and even though it had been in a garage unused for 30 years it still started up dead quiet and smooth!

[Marco]

Bet you say that to all the girls... lol

Come inside and 'check out the mahogany', baby! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[DSJR]

I'll probably use them for the plinth - the best of both worlds! :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

But Loricraft make the 501 and 601 and re-manufacture the proper parts the way they were designed. Price wouldn't be an issue for a man of your calibre....

[Marco]

Sure, but they don't do a BBC Hammerite grey version of the 301, which is what I'm looking for. Also, unlike Loricraft, Audio Grail are trade members of AoS, and if I can, I'll always support those who put something back into our community :)

Marco.

[DarrenHW]

Hi Darren,



Which ones, from here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xunifix+th underbolt.TRS0&_nkw=unifix+thunderbolt&_sacat=0

...would you recommend for putting up the turntable shelf I'm getting: http://www.hifiracks.co.uk/hifi-racks/7/podium-platform

Marco.

P.S Perhaps you would fit it for me, if offered the lure of Del's finest Tiramisu? :eyebrows: ;)

Of course I will, don't buy any fixings I've got a selection and if I haven't got an appropriate size we can pick them up individually in Wrexham for a couple of quid. Don't think I'll have chance till our next sesh but I'll be in touch if I do.

[Ammonite Audio]

Be aware that the holes in the Podium shelf take up to 5mm screws, and the overall bores won't take anything larger than a screw head. Fatter bolt heads won't fit in, without surgery to the woodwork. HiFi Racks recommend 5 x 70mm screws, but I'm using 5 x 100mm.

[Marco]

Of course I will, don't buy any fixings I've got a selection and if I haven't got an appropriate size we can pick them up individually in Wrexham for a couple of quid. Don't think I'll have chance till our next sesh but I'll be in touch if I do.

Nice one, mate - and much appreciated! :)

The stuff won't be here for a while yet, though. It was ordered last week and we were quoted 5-6 weeks for delivery. Will let you know when it arrives :cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

Be aware that the holes in the Podium shelf take up to 5mm screws, and the overall bores won't take anything larger than a screw head. Fatter bolt heads won't fit in, without surgery to the woodwork. HiFi Racks recommend 5 x 70mm screws, but I'm using 5 x 100mm.

Cheers, Hugo. Noted :thumbsup:

Marco.

[DarrenHW]

Nice one, mate - and much appreciated! :)

The stuff won't be here for a while yet, though. It was ordered last week and we were quoted 5-6 weeks for delivery. Will let you know when it arrives :cool:

Marco.

Thank funk for that, I'm up to my eye's at the moment. Still on for next sesh though :).


Be aware that the holes in the Podium shelf take up to 5mm screws, and the overall bores won't take anything larger than a screw head. Fatter bolt heads won't fit in, without surgery to the woodwork. HiFi Racks recommend 5 x 70mm screws, but I'm using 5 x 100mm.

Thanks Hugo, what head type did you use?

[Ammonite Audio]

It's not up yet, but they are just big wood screws.

[PaulStewart]

P.S Also, because I'd be looking for a hammerite grey finished 301, I don't know of anyone else other than AG who do them.

Marco,

Loricraft, who of course are the current owners of the Garrard name (or to be more precise the sole licensees of the name and trade mark) have been fully restoring and re manufacturing Garrards for decades. They have also carried on the tradition of great British idler drives with the 501 and 601. They have expertly recreated, with the help of many of the companies former employees and executives, all the paint finishes, lubricants and other parts used in the originals. They were the ones who paid for the tooling to recreate the 301 mat for instance. According to Brian Mortimer, whose dad Monty designed the 301 and who was the head of QC for the 401 as chief engineer of the company, Loricraft are the only company to have a direct conection to the original company and it's expertise. I know where I would go to get a 301 sorted.

[mikmas]

So long as the outside is good and the inside works properly.....who cares what the inside looks like?

I wonder where bling begins:scratch:

'Blinging' old metal is a rather misguided path to follow; the idea is seductive - as in the 'old' is burnt away and a shiny new surface revealed from its ashes.

In the case of precise engineered parts made within proscribed tolerances this is of course a quick route to material suicide - any process involving removing metal from their substance is weakening them towards the point of collapse and failure.

Have parts remade to their original specifications by all means but sandblasting, abrading or chemical etching simply for the superficial 'look' = a big fat no. Let well alone while it still functions and take action if it is really beyond redemption and necessary.

[Marco]

Marco,

Loricraft, who of course are the current owners of the Garrard name (or to be more precise the sole licensees of the name and trade mark) have been fully restoring and re manufacturing Garrards for decades. They have also carried on the tradition of great British idler drives with the 501 and 601. They have expertly recreated, with the help of many of the companies former employees and executives, all the paint finishes, lubricants and other parts used in the originals. They were the ones who paid for the tooling to recreate the 301 mat for instance. According to Brian Mortimer, whose dad Monty designed the 301 and who was the head of QC for the 401 as chief engineer of the company, Loricraft are the only company to have a direct conection to the original company and it's expertise. I know where I would go to get a 301 sorted.

Noted, Paul - and thanks for the chat! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

'Blinging' old metal is a rather misguided path to follow; the idea is seductive - as in the 'old' is burnt away and a shiny new surface revealed from its ashes.

In the case of precise engineered parts made within proscribed tolerances this is of course a quick route to material suicide - any process involving removing metal from their substance is weakening them towards the point of collapse and failure.

Have parts remade to their original specifications by all means but sandblasting, abrading or chemical etching simply for the superficial 'look' = a big fat no. Let well alone while it still functions and take action if it is really beyond redemption and necessary.

Hi Mike,

Absolutely, but I don't think that's what Audio Grail do. As far as I know, all old parts are replaced with new items and then finished as described. It's not a case of 'tarting up' old bits with (as you correctly state) the inevitable unfortunate consequences.

Marco.

[A.Grail]

I can completely appreciate authenticity and the desire to respect the heritage of the 301. The linkages however of the 301 are plated in cadmium, they are a tad toxic, more importantly they tarnish with time. This can certainly hinder function and cause vibration transference (Particularly the central linkage which is indirectly coupled to the motor - via the pitch control hub suspended on x3 small springs) should the hub stiffen it will need de-riveting and re-plating - Simply cleaning it up will remove whatever is left of the cadmium and rust can set in and the problem worsens. There are several ways to re-plate linkages, they can be simply acid stripped and 'tumbled' with passivate or they can be individually strung (Over 90 items including washers, bolts etc) the best method is the latter which is sadly the most labor intensive. The thing to remember is that Garrard were mass producing, it would simply not have been cost effective to cosmetically finish the units to higher specs. As an example look at many late type oil bearing 301s. The Orange peel effect (Rippled / dimpled appearance to the chassis finish under angled direct sunlight) is simply down to the quality of the powder coating (The powder itself, the application and chassis prep and bake) which sadly create a less then perfect finish - but it was cheap, fast and economically viable. Some may feel using a high end antique plating company and Rolls Royce apprenticed paint finishers is perhaps overkill. My personal feeling is it does set them nicely on their course for another 50 years.

[mikmas]

The Orange peel effect (Rippled / dimpled appearance to the chassis finish under angled direct sunlight) is simply down to the quality of the powder coating (The powder itself, the application and chassis prep and bake) which sadly create a less then perfect finish - but it was cheap, fast and economically viable. Some may feel using a high end antique plating company and Rolls Royce apprenticed paint finishers is perhaps overkill. My personal feeling is it does set them nicely on their course for another 50 years.

Therein lies the rub ...
Whilst I can fully appreciate and have very respect for the care and craftsmanship represented by such ambitions to me that goes beyond what the artefacts themselves represent and into a different realm.

As an example:
In the early '80s I bought a Braun PS500 in a junk shop, fully operational and only lacking a new stylus. I still have this machine and it is still fully operational and reproducing music. I'm sure you know the provenance but it was originally part of a whole series of audio products designed by the legendary Bauhaus trained designer, Dieter Rams, in the 60's and 70's (Ram's design philosophy and ethos is noted for being the inspiration firing Jonathan Ive whose designs in turn saved Apple from extinction after their near demise in the late '90s)

First manufactured in 1968, the PS500 was the slight cheaper brother of the PS1000, noted as being Braun's attempt at capturing the high end European TT market dominated by the likes of Thorens (clearly they didn't succeed). Regardless of their ambitions, they were as constrained as any other by the needs of cost effective mass production and the standardisation of parts and processes this entails BUT despite this the machine has survived not only these compromises but also the nigh on 50 years of abuse it has suffered since - much of which is my doing. It has travelled extensively without any protective packaging to speak of, been stored in garages and lofts Summer and Winter, spent a good bit of time partying like there's no tomorrow, suffered (at least) 35 years of passive smoking and, last but not least, never had any decent maintenance to speak of bar changing the stylus and (most recently) a bit of a clean, a new audio lead (the old one had finally perished) and a new bit of string.

Yes, there are some minor traces of corrosion on the body and internal metalwork, a few scuffs and dents and there is no doubt it would benefit from a complete mechanical and electrical overhaul but to refurnish/rebuild it completely to a state where it would in fact be better than when it was new would not do justice to it's maker's accomplishment nor the original conditions that made it the survivor that it is. It is an object defined by its history and such a remake IMV would render it a largely empty simulacrum devoid of the soul it has acquired during its working life.

[A.Grail]

Therein lies the rub ...
Whilst I can fully appreciate and have very respect for the care and craftsmanship represented by such ambitions to me that goes beyond what the artefacts themselves represent and into a different realm.

As an example:
In the early '80s I bought a Braun PS500 in a junk shop, fully operational and only lacking a new stylus. I still have this machine and it is still fully operational and reproducing music. I'm sure you know the provenance but it was originally part of a whole series of audio products designed by the legendary Bauhaus trained designer, Dieter Rams, in the 60's and 70's (Ram's design philosophy and ethos is noted for being the inspiration firing Jonathan Ive whose designs in turn saved Apple from extinction after their near demise in the late '90s)

First manufactured in 1968, the PS500 was the slight cheaper brother of the PS1000, noted as being Braun's attempt at capturing the high end European TT market dominated by the likes of Thorens (clearly they didn't succeed). Regardless of their ambitions, they were as constrained as any other by the needs of cost effective mass production and the standardisation of parts and processes this entails BUT despite this the machine has survived not only these compromises but also the nigh on 50 years of abuse it has suffered since - much of which is my doing. It has travelled extensively without any protective packaging to speak of, been stored in garages and lofts Summer and Winter, spent a good bit of time partying like there's no tomorrow, suffered (at least) 35 years of passive smoking and, last but not least, never had any decent maintenance to speak of bar changing the stylus and (most recently) a bit of a clean, a new audio lead (the old one had finally perished) and a new bit of string.

Yes, there are some minor traces of corrosion on the body and internal metalwork, a few scuffs and dents and there is no doubt it would benefit from a complete mechanical and electrical overhaul but to refurnish/rebuild it completely to a state where it would in fact be better than when it was new would not do justice to it's maker's accomplishment nor the original conditions that made it the survivor that it is. It is an object defined by its history and such a remake IMV would render it a largely empty simulacrum devoid of the soul it has acquired during its working life.

We certainly appreciate and cater to the collectors notion of artifact (As collectors ourselves we are fortunate to have the largest known collection of 301's) Through no great marketing plan the majority of our sales are from direct contact - in many ways our eBay sales over the years (Day to day eBay offers greater exposure than a website for 301's) serve as advertisements for our work as much as sales in and of themselves. Of these private sales a great many are to collectors who desire NOS or premium 'all original examples'. Of course the mechanics all require attention however where possible we do strive to preserve the heritage of units. With this said where mechanical deterioration or cosmetic difficulties are apparent we do go down the road of full restoration to preserve the unit function and beauty of the 301.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1495942_795556813795236_2096610197_o.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/furylovelolly/media/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1495942_795556813795236_2096610197_o.jpg.html)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1491396_795030253847892_1916200234_o.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/furylovelolly/media/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1491396_795030253847892_1916200234_o.jpg.html)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1421054_753266661357585_1480444006_o.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/furylovelolly/media/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1421054_753266661357585_1480444006_o.jpg.html)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1074103_689126134438305_373397623_o.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/furylovelolly/media/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1074103_689126134438305_373397623_o.jpg.html)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/10365389_989440714406844_9204065464825130993_o.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/furylovelolly/media/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/10365389_989440714406844_9204065464825130993_o.jpg .html)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtwtDlBNXl0

[Marco]

Yes, there are some minor traces of corrosion on the body and internal metalwork, a few scuffs and dents and there is no doubt it would benefit from a complete mechanical and electrical overhaul but to refurnish/rebuild it completely to a state where it would in fact be better than when it was new would not do justice to it's maker's accomplishment nor the original conditions that made it the survivor that it is. It is an object defined by its history and such a remake IMV would render it a largely empty simulacrum devoid of the soul it has acquired during its working life.

Each to his or her own, I guess, but when it comes to audio equipment, that sort of thing to me is completely irrelevant, as primarily its role is to act as a tool for reproducing music - and if refurbishing a 301 (or whatever), to the nth detail, results in it fulfilling that role more capably, then that comes first before any 'romantic notions' relating to preserving its authenticity or 'soul'...

If we were discussing the restoration of piece of Chippendale furniture, however, my approach might be rather different! ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Matt,

Some excellent info and pics there! This is exactly what I'd be looking to obtain:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/furylovelolly/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1495942_795556813795236_2096610197_o.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/furylovelolly/media/JAZZ%20RECS%20SIGSOUND/SIG%20SOUND%20OCT%2014/SIG%20SOUND%202015/1495942_795556813795236_2096610197_o.jpg.html)

Ballpark figure, roughly how much are we talking about? :)

Also, do you supply any appropriate plinths, or is it just the motor units themselves that you deal with?

Marco.

[The Black Adder]

Matt, your work is legendary, I've always been very impressed. Very nice indeed. I could tempted with one too, but I'm not sure what I'd do with two decks.. lol

This plinth looks superb to me, would you know who made them as the one for the TD124 looks lovely too.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11659252_1144111262273121_4714003304808664024_n.jp g?oh=8b8de7e2df4499d5563e253967a2199e&oe=560E2826

I didn't know Loricraft owned Garrard now though. Learn something every day.

[A.Grail]

Matt, your work is legendary, I've always been very impressed. Very nice indeed. I could tempted with one too, but I'm not sure what I'd do with two decks.. lol

This plinth looks superb to me, would you know who made them as the one for the TD124 looks lovely too.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11659252_1144111262273121_4714003304808664024_n.jp g?oh=8b8de7e2df4499d5563e253967a2199e&oe=560E2826

.

Both the 301 and 124 plinths were made in Moldova - the seller is on eBay - The 301 pictured is a grease bearing we prepared for Jack at BD audio. In terms of plinth cost there is plenty of value here.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Plinth-for-Garrard-301-12-gloss-piano-palisander-rosewood-/111702839379?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1a02021053

[mikmas]

... as primarily its role is to act as a tool for reproducing music - and if refurbishing a 301 (or whatever), to the nth detail, results in it fulfilling that role more capably, then that comes first ....

Marco.

Exactly - on that we agree ..... so in essence trivia such as paint finish and it's superficial look are unnecessary irrelevancies as long as it functions as it should ;)

[Marco]

Lol... No, aspects relating to 'preserving authenticity/soul', unless they impact on performance, are for me, unnecessary irrelevances.

However, as I've already said, aesthetic appearance is important (I like vintage gear to look 'as good as new'), hence why I also want a BBC hammerite grey 301, rather than the stock 'cream' version :)

Marco.

[mikmas]

Lol... No, aspects relating to 'preserving authenticity/soul', unless they impact on performance, are for me, unnecessary irrelevances.

However, as I've already said, aesthetic appearance is important (I like vintage gear to look 'as good as new'), hence why I also want a BBC hammerite grey 301, rather than the stock 'cream' version :)

Marco.

OK Marco - time to fess up to a bit of 'Devil's Advocacy' on my part given that in front of me is my Quad 33 with it's RCA inputs, external PSU and beautifully resprayed face plate ....

Even worse - I opted for 'Ford Oyster Gold' to freshen up this little old lady rather than Camouflage Beige (BS 813 389), which is the nearest available match to retain the authentic Quad drabness :lol:

[Barry]

OK Marco - time to fess up to a bit of 'Devil's Advocacy' on my part given that in front of me is my Quad 33 with it's RCA inputs, external PSU and beautifully resprayed face plate ....

Even worse - I opted for 'Ford Oyster Gold' to freshen up this little old lady rather than Camouflage Beige (BS 813C), which is the nearest available match to retain the authentic Quad drabness :lol:


Volvo 468 (Lavasand Pearl) is a very good match to the "Quad bronze" of the Series 3 electronics: Quad 33/303, AM3, FM2 and FM3.

Like you I have had the faceplate of a vintage Quad tuner (the AM1) resprayed. It was done by my late father who was a car panel beater and body paint sprayer by trade. He was able to match the colour precisely as well as that of the darker grey bronze of the case.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/006_zps9eaba540.jpg

Refurbished AM1 (top)