Goldilocks seeks DAC

[dougmon]

Hi all:

For the past several years, one of my primary sources has been a Squeezebox Touch streaming lossless files from a NAS into a Rega DAC.

Since I've made the switch from tube to solid-state amplification, I'm finding the Rega DAC to be a bit too crisp and "hi-fi" sounding; perhaps with a bit too much detail. I have a Rega Planet 2000 that sounds slightly more laid-back, and that's good if I'm not being to lazy to go find the CD I want :) ; but sometimes I prefer just to program a few hours of music.

Using the analog outputs of the Squeezebox Touch gives me _almost_ what I'm looking for, but it's lacking a little in body and just a _little_ in detail. So I'm looking for a budget DAC that doesn't have that "crisp" sound, is perhaps a bit laid back, but has some detail.

Any advice is welcome. I'm not in a hurry, so I have plenty of time to check out recommendations.

Once recommendation I've already checked out: the Benchmark DAC (I think it was a DAC2); I thought it was also a bit too crisp (more so than the REGA, really), so that might give you an idea of what I'm not looking for.

Thanks!

[Stratmangler]

Have you tried a decent linear PSU with your Squeezebox Touch?
I know the green Nazis in sunny California stamp all over commercially made linear PSUs, so it might have to be a self build project.

Failing that you could always try something like an SBooster on the cheap 'n' nasty SMPS that comes with the Squeezebox.
They're pretty good at filtering out the nasties those crappy PSUs kick out.
http://www.sbooster.com/philosophy-behind-sbooster-concept-pm-29.html?language=en

[Dauntless]

Living as you do in Sunny California have you not tried some of the Emotiva products. I have their Stealth Dac which has all the inputs you need and a pre amp capability built in. I myself use the pre amp ( which is not Digital ) to drive my amps. This Dac replaced an Audiolab M Dac which had all the problems that you are complaining about. You will find The Stealth Dac in the Pro Audio section of their web site.

[dougmon]

Thanks, both of you.

Stratmangler: my understanding is that a linear PSU is only helpful if you're using the analog output on the Squeezebox. Yes? No?

Michael: I have looked at the Emotiva, but I need a straight-up DAC, and there seems to be no way to bypass the volume control on their DAC-preamp combos that I can see. Do you have one of their DACs? Can you comment?

[Stratmangler]

Stratmangler: my understanding is that a linear PSU is only helpful if you're using the analog output on the Squeezebox. Yes? No?

I use my Touch as a transport feeding an external DAC, and yes a decent linear PSU makes an audible difference.

[AlfaGTV]

If you feel that the Rega DAC is a "bit crisp, and too HiFi sounding", are you sure that all is well in your system otherwise?
IME the Rega DAC is grainy, muddled and rolled off... But, yes, we hear things differently.
(On the other hand i prefer the Benchmark for it's clean, taut sound and to me, it's very neutral reproduction of audio)
But if you really want to go further than the Rega towards the "musical" sound of the spectrum, perhaps a NOS dac would fit your bill? Say an Audio Note, or any other iteration of the Philips TDa 1541/1543DAC's?

/Mike

[brian2957]

Which input are you using on the Rega DAC ?

[dougmon]

Which input are you using on the Rega DAC ?

Just one of the SPDIF inputs.

[dougmon]

If you feel that the Rega DAC is a "bit crisp, and too HiFi sounding", are you sure that all is well in your system otherwise?
IME the Rega DAC is grainy, muddled and rolled off... But, yes, we hear things differently.
(On the other hand i prefer the Benchmark for it's clean, taut sound and to me, it's very neutral reproduction of audio)
But if you really want to go further than the Rega towards the "musical" sound of the spectrum, perhaps a NOS dac would fit your bill? Say an Audio Note, or any other iteration of the Philips TDa 1541/1543DAC's?

/Mike

I'm fairly sure all is well with my system. Part of it is that I changed my amplification from tube to solid state, so that could contribute to what I'm hearing. And part of it could be that I'm jumping to conclusions based on the majority of the recordings I've been listening to lately. There are also filter settings on the Rega dac, some of which are not suitable for my system.

It's also possible that I'm comparing the Rega to some higher quality DACs that I've heard recently, and that old audio dissatisfaction is starting up again. The "crisp, hi-fi" sound i hear is not always there -- just sometimes.

One thing I did do was to apply some Squeezebox tweaks -- the basic goal of these tweaks was to shut down services on the Squeezebox that I didn't actually use and to remove conflicts/sharing between audio and non-audio services. I believe this made a difference, but I will keep listening and decide later.

One question: what exactly do you mean by "NOS dac"?

In any case, I will put Audio Note on my list of DACs to try. Thanks.

Edit: I just priced some Audio Note DACs. To quote Keanu Reeves: "Whoa."

[AlfaGTV]

Alright then!
We all hear things differently, thats for sure! By NOS i mean No OverSampling. There are quite few different samples of those, both via the DIY route and prefabricated. I think the AMR-777 is one those and a mighty fine example too. There are other alternatives in more reasonable price categories though.
Atb /Mike

[dougmon]

Alright then!
We all hear things differently, thats for sure! By NOS i mean No OverSampling. There are quite few different samples of those, both via the DIY route and prefabricated. I think the AMR-777 is one those and a mighty fine example too. There are other alternatives in more reasonable price categories though.
Atb /Mike

Thanks, Mike. This is a whole area to explore that I hadn't thought of.

[dougmon]

Thanks to all who replied here. Since I'm fairly happy with the sound of the CD player, and not actively unhappy with the sound of the Squeezebox :), I've decided to go without an external DAC for a while. On Mike's (AlfaGTV) suggestion, I'm going to check out NOS DACs, since some research I've done has led me to believe that I might like the sound of those.

Thanks again.

Doug

P.S. Mike, you are entirely correct when you say we hear differently -- I am more of the "euphonious distortion" school, I think.

P.P.S. On the other hand, I once heard a Krell-Wilson setup that the dealer swore was the best-sounding thing that money could buy. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't by almost any standards. :eyebrows:

[dougmon]

Just a followup on this issue:

I started using the USB port on the Rega DAC, and IMO it sounds better than the coax inputs. As AlfaGTV said, we all hear differently, don't we? (I know many people feel the USB input on the Rega is vastly inferior to the coax inputs).

Per Stratmangler: I'm still working on getting a linear PSU. I'm either saving up to buy one pre-made (they are pretty expensive) or build one (I have to overcome my dislike of soldering :) ).

And again, per AlfaGTV, I've started looking at NOS DACs. Thought it's largely academic at this point (until my wife finishes all of the home improvement she wants to do), the Mhdt Havana and the Metrum Octave are neck and neck. But that's only going by research, and there certainly could be better or more appropriate NOS DACs.

Again, thanks to all who answered, and if there is anyone out there with opinions :lol: on NOS DACs, please do comment.

I'm going to just digress for a second here. What I really like about this board: there seems to be a lot more love for music here than there is for equipment.

[Pieoftheday]

Just a followup on this issue:

I started using the USB port on the Rega DAC, and IMO it sounds better than the coax inputs. As AlfaGTV said, we all hear differently, don't we? (I know many people feel the USB input on the Rega is vastly inferior to the coax inputs).

Per Stratmangler: I'm still working on getting a linear PSU. I'm either saving up to buy one pre-made (they are pretty expensive) or build one (I have to overcome my dislike of soldering :) ).

And again, per AlfaGTV, I've started looking at NOS DACs. Thought it's largely academic at this point (until my wife finishes all of the home improvement she wants to do), the Mhdt Havana and the Metrum Octave are neck and neck. But that's only going by research, and there certainly could be better or more appropriate NOS DACs.

Again, thanks to all who answered, and if there is anyone out there with opinions :lol: on NOS DACs, please do comment.

I'm going to just digress for a second here. What I really like about this board: there seems to be a lot more love for music here than there is for equipment.
I've used a MUSE nos DAC to great effect, just dump the 12 v power supply for something between 6.5v and 9.5v, much above that and the DAC gets warm, with the 12v power supply it gets very hot!!! Jim. Edit, I'm using a Breeze Audio power supply with adjustable voltage, less than £100 for both:)

[AlfaGTV]

Lovely! A bit of fiddling and establishing a preferred sound through your gear is one of the best aspects of this hobby!
I realize i came across a little harsh on the Rega DAC earlier, but i still belive it to be a well designed unit even if it's sound signature is not quite up my alley.

I assume your transport is a computer? What kind of software/files are you feeding the Rega?

And i have a couple of other suggestions for you;
HRT Music Streamer+ (the original, Toblerone-shaped jobby)
Bladelius USB DAC

Both of these are in my posession and have a sound signature which goes further towards the musical/euphonic end of the scale. The old HRT can probably be picked up for a few tenners 2nd hand. When powered by using a powered USB hub or even better, a dedicated PSU it will really sing!
The Bladelius unit will easily compete with dacs ten times it price if you dont like "digital glare". It will gladly do without externa power also...

I also have a HRT MusicsStreamer II but that one is more of a modern clinical sound to these lug holes.

Many of the DAC's in the affordable league seems to me they have more of a particular "sound".

Have you tried the different filter settings? I think there can be a few hidden gems in there:

(low sample rates 32/44.1/48K)
1 Linear phase half-band filter
2 Minimum phase soft-knee filter
3 Minimum phase half-band filter
4 Linear phase apodising filter
5 Minimum phase apodising filter

(medium & high sample rates 88.2/96 & 176.4/192K)
1 Linear phase soft-knee filter
2 Minimum phase soft-knee filter
3 Linear phase brickwall filter
4 Minimum phase apodising filter
5 Linear phase apodising filter

I think you might be sensitive to the phase shifting and pre ringin inherent in "linear" filtering.
Try the minimum phase apodising filters for a few days, and then switch to a linear one.
Tell us what how that sounds to you, please?

All the best /Mike

[dougmon]

I've used a MUSE nos DAC to great effect, just dump the 12 v power supply for something between 6.5v and 9.5v, much above that and the DAC gets warm, with the 12v power supply it gets very hot!!! Jim. Edit, I'm using a Breeze Audio power supply with adjustable voltage, less than £100 for both:)

Your post made me look through all of the audio stuff that I'd used and put away for later. I'd forgotten that I have a Muse Mini USB DAC; I used it as a USB-to-SPDIF converter. It's not NOS, though - and it doesn't have a power input, so I think it must be powered by the USB input. That's not germane to the subject at hand, though -- I was just surprised that I had it.

I did find the Muse NOS DAC on Amazon -- wow, it's twice the price of the USB-to-SPDIF converter :). An entire 53 USD! I'll be giving it a try. I suspect it will at least give me a good idea of whether I like the NOS sound or not. Thanks for the tip, I appreciate it.

[dougmon]

Lovely! A bit of fiddling and establishing a preferred sound through your gear is one of the best aspects of this hobby!
I realize i came across a little harsh on the Rega DAC earlier, but i still belive it to be a well designed unit even if it's sound signature is not quite up my alley.


Well, I spoke too soon. The USB is a little better, but after listening to it a while, I found it a little abrasive. I might find a way to tweak it, but honestly...I don't know, I might just give up on the Rega DAC. When I had all-tube amplification, the Rega was a good match. With the solid-state amplification, I don't like it a lot. A lot of people mention that the Delta-Sigma chips have a 'sheen' that overlays all the music, and I might be hearing that.

Don't worry about being harsh; I really don't think you were. I've been called an idiot and worse because of my audio preferences; I didn't notice that you did that. :)




I assume your transport is a computer? What kind of software/files are you feeding the Rega?


The computer is a server running the Vortexbox software - it is feeding FLAC files through a Squeezebox Touch to the Rega.



And i have a couple of other suggestions for you;
HRT Music Streamer+ (the original, Toblerone-shaped jobby)
Bladelius USB DAC

Both of these are in my posession and have a sound signature which goes further towards the musical/euphonic end of the scale. The old HRT can probably be picked up for a few tenners 2nd hand. When powered by using a powered USB hub or even better, a dedicated PSU it will really sing!
The Bladelius unit will easily compete with dacs ten times it price if you dont like "digital glare". It will gladly do without externa power also...


Thanks! I'll check both of them out. This is very helpful.



I also have a HRT MusicsStreamer II but that one is more of a modern clinical sound to these lug holes.

Many of the DAC's in the affordable league seems to me they have more of a particular "sound".


This could very well be. Maybe it's just a matter of finding one that has a sound I like. With your contribution, I now have three budget DACs I can look at. These will at least tell me if I like the NOS sound.



Have you tried the different filter settings? I think there can be a few hidden gems in there:


My apologies, I think I've been unclear. I've actually had the Rega DAC for years, so I've tried many of the filter settings. My favorite was the "minimum phase soft-knee filter". I have no idea what that means, though :)

I do like the minimum-phase apodising filter a bit, but it seems lacking in other ways.




I think you might be sensitive to the phase shifting and pre ringin inherent in "linear" filtering.
Try the minimum phase apodising filters for a few days, and then switch to a linear one.
Tell us what how that sounds to you, please?

All the best /Mike

I think the problem I may be hearing is that with the new amplification I got (which is wonderful with the Rega Planet 2000 CDP and the vinyl setup I have), the Rega DAC just doesn't cut it. I'm hearing things I never heard before, and the whole presentation is just a bit "in-your-face" for me. It's possible I just don't like resolution and clarity :)

I'm going to take what I think is one of your implied suggestions: take my time, get used to any changes I make, and change them back if I don't like them.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions. I'll be trying a number of NOS DACs in the next year or so, along with some examples of non-NOS DACs. And of course I'll be writing about the whole process in this forum :)

I should also add: I'm not restricted to USB DACs, and in fact it's easier for me to use a coax cable -- so any recommendations for non-USB DACs are welcome too.

Best,

Doug

[Pieoftheday]

Your post made me look through all of the audio stuff that I'd used and put away for later. I'd forgotten that I have a Muse Mini USB DAC; I used it as a USB-to-SPDIF converter. It's not NOS, though - and it doesn't have a power input, so I think it must be powered by the USB input. That's not germane to the subject at hand, though -- I was just surprised that I had it.

I did find the Muse NOS DAC on Amazon -- wow, it's twice the price of the USB-to-SPDIF converter :). An entire 53 USD! I'll be giving it a try. I suspect it will at least give me a good idea of whether I like the NOS sound or not. Thanks for the tip, I appreciate it.

Doug, I'm currently just using mine for TV duties as I've bought a new CD player and I'm still getting to know it,I'll be hooking up the muse in a few weeks to see if I have a preference. I have to say that its great for TV, it doesn't draw attention to itself, dialogue can be ever so slightly hard on occasion but this is probably more to do with our living room, on the whole its quite a natural sound within my set up, good luck with your search, jim.

[dougmon]

I think you might be sensitive to the phase shifting and pre ringin inherent in "linear" filtering.
Try the minimum phase apodising filters for a few days, and then switch to a linear one.
Tell us what how that sounds to you, please?

All the best /Mike

Just for the heck of, I'm removing all the tweaks from my Squeezebox Touch and I'm going with the minimum phase apodising filter. I haven't actually tried it with the stock Touch, and it might be worth a listen.

Again, thanks for all the input.

[dougmon]

More followup:

I picked up a Muse NOS Dac (the least expensive) and tried it out for several days, leaving it powered up all the time. NOS has its supporters and detractors, of course, and while I was listening to this DAC, I read viewpoints from both camps, and found that both have valid points.

On the positive side: a nice musical flow, very smooth sound. But not always.

On the negative side: some harsh vocals, some distortion, not great on complex music. But not always.

I'll talk about the negative, because I can come up with concrete examples. Dexter Gordon, "Our Man In Paris", the last cut - the piano is distorted, and the Muse DAC accentuated this. Robert Plant/Alison Krauss, "Raising Sand" - on some cuts the acoustic guitar and mandolin sounded "chimey" -- almost like a glockenspiel. In fact, I found this to be the case with a lot of recordings of acoustic guitar. I do listen at a fairly low volume, and this DAC seemed to suck the tone out of acoustic instruments at that volume. As for harsh vocals, I listen to a lot of choral music, and I found that it could become harsh in both the tenor and soprano ranges with this DAC; and in fact, I heard the same thing on some recordings of saxophone. Oh, and complex music such as 70's prog-rock like King Crimson or Yes could sound like a total mess; sorry, can't describe it better than that.

But the negative is all relative to the positive. For the most part, the sound was non-fatiguing and fun to listen to. I listened to an entire evening of Van Morrison, and though the recordings were made at very different times and so had different presentation, it was all fun to listen to. I listened to a lot of Blue Note Jazz (particularly Wayne Shorter and Dexter Gordon) and had a great time with it. Led Zeppelin II had more of the musical presentation I remember from the 70's (not that I remember the 70s that well :) ). And it was only in relation to the really fun listening that the occasional harshness or mishandling of certain instruments became more prominent.

Did I like it? By and large, yes. I wish I could sample a better implementation of an NOS DAC without putting out an excessive amount of money. I'd like to see how it's handled by Metrum, for instance.

In any case, those are my impressions of one NOS DAC. I realize other implementations may be better, but though I enjoyed this DAC most of the time, I can't see committing 1000-3000 USD simply to investigate more.

If you've read this far, thanks. And if I've bored you, my apologies.

[dougmon]

(low sample rates 32/44.1/48K)
1 Linear phase half-band filter
2 Minimum phase soft-knee filter



I think you might be sensitive to the phase shifting and pre ringin inherent in "linear" filtering.
Try the minimum phase apodising filters for a few days, and then switch to a linear one.
Tell us what how that sounds to you, please?

All the best /Mike

Thanks again for all the input, Mike. I've spent a few weeks now comparing some of the filters, and your take on it was, I think, correct.

As it turns out, I am really not fond of the linear phase filters. My favorite seems to be the "minimum phase soft-knee filter".

I'm also giving the Muse NOS DAC another try. It's really not a bad sound -- perhaps even cheap DACS need to "burn-in"?

In any case, I'm looking at both NOS and R2R DACs. I have to take my time, though -- all of the DACs I've been looking at have no return policy, so I'll basically have to live with whatever I eventually get. :)

[AlfaGTV]

No probs Doug! Glad to be of any help, even if you are the one who makes the informed decisions! ;)
I think you're going about this in the best possible way, listening and considering.
I am using a Network Streamer which is equipped with two internal DAC's, one Burr Brown and one Wolfson. The BB one can utilize two filter settings, one is a linear phase filter which i find very dynamic and 'alive'. The other is a a minimum phase apodizing filter which is very analog and sound smooth and 'analog'. I like em both and use em equally much. The least used setting is the Wolfson DAC which is nice but sounds a little 'soft on the edges' and lacks a little presence. Its a cosy and warm tone which might be perfect for some environments.

Where is all this leading then? Each to their own, find a DAC which suits your tastes and then; Enjoy!
There are no 'bad DAC's' today, but if id buy newer today i'd look for a well executed implementation of a couple of ESS 9018 DAC's in parallell. They are sooo smooth in their presentation! (If the reciever chip and the analog stage are well built!)
All the best /Mike

[dougmon]

No probs Doug! Glad to be of any help, even if you are the one who makes the informed decisions! ;)
I think you're going about this in the best possible way, listening and considering.
I am using a Network Streamer which is equipped with two internal DAC's, one Burr Brown and one Wolfson. The BB one can utilize two filter settings, one is a linear phase filter which i find very dynamic and 'alive'. The other is a a minimum phase apodizing filter which is very analog and sound smooth and 'analog'. I like em both and use em equally much. The least used setting is the Wolfson DAC which is nice but sounds a little 'soft on the edges' and lacks a little presence. Its a cosy and warm tone which might be perfect for some environments.

I agree entirely with your assessment of the filters. The minimum phase on the Rega DAC does sound a little 'soft on the edges'; but this is perfect for me. The inexpensive NOS DAC I'm using at this moment (Muse Audio Tda1543x4 DIR9001+4X) has a very soft presentation. I like it enough, though, to keep it in the system for a while to see if I think it's better or if it's just new. So far I like the NOS presentation; I'm very tempted to just spring for an NOS dac as soon as I can afford it; but as you said, best to take one's time. I'm buying for retirement, so I'm looking for long-lasting components that I will continue to like in the future.


Where is all this leading then? Each to their own, find a DAC which suits your tastes and then; Enjoy!
There are no 'bad DAC's' today, but if id buy newer today i'd look for a well executed implementation of a couple of ESS 9018 DAC's in parallell. They are sooo smooth in their presentation! (If the reciever chip and the analog stage are well built!)
All the best /Mike

From your description of what you'd look for, it sounds like you have a certain DAC in mind; is that the case? I haven't heard an ES9018, but I have heard the Line Magnetic DAC with an ES9016, and it was very nice. I don't know if there are similarities between the two chips, though.

From my research, it seems that I would like the PCM1704 (given a good implementation of it). The Audio-GD dacs look nice; and apparently they can be either oversampling or NOS, depending on an internal jumper configuration. The MHDT Pagoda also looks good, but there don't seem to be a lot of Pagoda owners out there, so I can't get any impressions.

Then there are the "I've just won the lottery" DACs, such as the Aqua La Scala; but realistically, I don't think one of those is in my future. :)

If anyone has any input on this, I'd be interested in hearing it. I should note here (because I wasn't clear before) that I can't use a USB-only DAC; I do need something with a coax SPDIF input.

[StanleyB]

In any case, I'm looking at both NOS and R2R DACs. I have to take my time, though -- all of the DACs I've been looking at have no return policy, so I'll basically have to live with whatever I eventually get. :)
It's a pity that you are not considering ΔΣ DACs, otherwise I would have suggested that you gave my own Beresford Caiman MKII a try as well. There are many owners of one on this forum, and my returns policy has been praised repeatedly over the years.

[dougmon]

It's a pity that you are not considering ΔΣ DACs, otherwise I would have suggested that you gave my own Beresford Caiman MKII a try as well. There are many owners of one on this forum, and my returns policy has been praised repeatedly over the years.

I appreciate the pointer; I know your DACs have a wonderful reputation and are great VFM. Should I decided that NOS or R2R are not for me, trust me, I'll be trying out the Caiman. :)

[AlfaGTV]

From your description of what you'd look for, it sounds like you have a certain DAC in mind; is that the case?

Actually yes, i'd like to get my hands on this one;
Gustard DAC X20U (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X20U-Super-Ultimate-HIFI-DAC-2xES9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/111708547958?hash=item1a02592b76)

I have their U10, which is an XMOS based USB converter. It delivers digital output in SPDIF (RCA, TOSLINK and AES/EBU) as well as I2S and makes USB audio really enjoyable.

The X20U is in a different price category though, but i suspect it might be tremendous bang for buck! :)

[dougmon]

I'm reviving this old thread so that I can thank everyone who gave me input. All of it was helpful.

I tried several DACs, including some Delta-Sigma, which I thought were ok, but they just didn't do it for me.

I was unable to try the AMR or Audio Note DACs. I suspect it would have been frustrating to hear them if they were as good as their proponents stated; they were simply too expensive for me to consider.

So...after dropping a few hints, I received an early birthday present; the Metrum Musette NOS DAC. I've lived with it for about a week now, and I'm pretty impressed with it. It seems to really get out of the way and let me enjoy the music. The manual, which I assume was translated from Dutch, says "The Musette will reach it's maximum performance after a three to four weeks of intensive use!" I'm not a big believer in burn-in, but if it truly happens, I will be very interested to hear the results.

Prior to this, I was leaving my CD player (Rega Planet 2000) plugged in so I could hear the difference between that and music server going through the DAC. Now all of my digital sources are going through the DAC. I haven't tried the USB input yet, but I will fairly soon.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed. Every contribution was helpful.

[r100]

Actually yes, i'd like to get my hands on this one;
Gustard DAC X20U (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X20U-Super-Ultimate-HIFI-DAC-2xES9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/111708547958?hash=item1a02592b76)

I have their U10, which is an XMOS based USB converter. It delivers digital output in SPDIF (RCA, TOSLINK and AES/EBU) as well as I2S and makes USB audio really enjoyable.

The X20U is in a different price category though, but i suspect it might be tremendous bang for buck! :)

Hi Mike, did you finally get the X20 ? If so, could you comment on it ? Thank's
cheers
Ru

http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-dac-x20-super-ultimate-2-x-es9018-xmos-hifi-dac-384khz-dsd-dop-decoder.html

http://cdn.head-fi.org/e/e0/900x900px-LL-e041802f_X207.jpeg