USB cables

[Zoidburg]

First off apologies if this has been covered before or elsewhere,

I am considering upgrading my system slightly and replacing my current Arcam rdac with a m2tech Young dac (seen one 2nd hand that's very local to me and am going round to see they guy and check it out this week with a view to buying it). The Young will be fed via usb from my pc and I hope that I wont really need to worry about the digital side of things for a few years now. Sooooooo with that in mind should I also look at some form of fancy USB cable to accompany this purchase or will any freebie usb cable do?

I have never experimented with usb cables before and im not sure if anyone has any suggestions? If it helps I think I will treating myself to a set of Mark grants G1000HD interconnects between the young and my amp.

I hope im not opening up a can of worms and please feel free to tell me to keep my money in my pocket if that's what you found lol.

cheers

Ben

[struth]

reading that a can of worms came to mind Ben :eyebrows: some will swear yeah a!d some nae. tbh ive not noticed much if any difference in usb cables tbh but never tried uber expensive ones. the dearest was about 20 quid second hand. it looks nicer though.

[Spectral Morn]

I think the Wireworld USB cables are very good and pretty good value for money. My own choice was the Wireworld Red cables. They outperform all the Belkin's I tried.

I would also suggest the iFi Gemini USB cable, which splits signal and power into two separate cables. Useful if the DAC doesn't require any power via the USB. My own experiences also suggest that an iFi Audio purifier is a worthwhile addition to strip out all nasties from the USB output.



Regards Neil

[Zoidburg]

Totally take your point Grant and realise its all person preference etc. just looking for some general thoughts and maybe pointers of what (if anything) to consider.

also Uber expensive is probably not for me.....gotta be sensible money :-)

[Ammonite Audio]

A freebie USB cable may well be fine (in that it will work), but a branded Belkin one is likely to be better sounding, and more reliable, for very little cash. I do use a couple of Kimber USB cables, which are reasonably priced in the context of such things, and IME do result in slightly better sound quality. YMMV, of course.

I would avoid any cable that has LED indicators built into the USB connectors.

[wee tee cee]

As always worth trying for yourself. Buy some cheapies from amazon and then something like a belkin pro. If you cant hear a difference then your happy. Personal experience has made me spend a few quid moving from belkin - supra- furatech. I run a 5m usb so maybe this is an influence?

Make your own mind up/borrow and try cables/any AOS members near you that can help?

[Zoidburg]

Thanks for the comments so far guys

So who's up for lending me a couple of usb cables to try out for a week or 2?? :-)

[orbscure]

I haven't got anything spare Ben... but in addition to what you've been told thus far, up until a change in direction late last year from USB to S/PDIF connection between my server and a M2Tech Young DAC, I've found Furutech USB A to USB B cables to be as good as anything around (ADL Formula 2, Gt2 or GT2pro). Having said that, I've just gone back to dedicated USB connection and although I'm currently between cables (waiting for a Furutech GT2pro cable to be shipped from Japan) an old scanner cable found in my spares cable draw is doing a sterling job...

[Zoidburg]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for your comments, be interested to hear what you think of the Furutech GT2pro after time spent with the old cable. (I don't know the price of the furutech but im guessing it probably out of my league lol) Anyway I'm also using a USB to S/PDIF converter with my rdac at present so maybe I will give that a shot with the Young and see what if any difference I can detect between it and straight usb connection as well as a couple of different usb cables.......

[AlanS]

I tried freebe supplied with the DAC, Maplins, Supra and Wireworld Yellow cables.

Did not hear the slightest difference on £35 USB DAC (uses power line), £2k+ DAC
or anything I tried them on.

Even had one Dealer tell me I did not know how to listen. Good way to get business that.

Some hear all sorts. Me I hear analogue cable differences but USB none.

You may be different only you will find out. Hope it doesn't ruin your life

[Marco]

Even had one Dealer tell me I did not know how to listen. Good way to get business that.


I hope that before you left you booted him in the balls, for his cheek, as that's what would've happened had it been me!

Marco.

[Zoidburg]

I hope that before you left you booted him in the balls, for his cheek, as that's what would've happened had it been me!

Marco.

AGREED, certainly not the sort of clap trap you want a salesman to be telling you!

[Marco]

It's the sheer arrogance and unjustified superiority complex of these assholes that boils my piss, Ben. Who the f*ck do they think they are talking down to folk like that?? :steam:

I would certainly 're-educate' the idiot on the errors of his ways before I parted company with him, as if you let them get away with it, later on some other poor bugger will suffer.

Marco.

[Gazjam]

Hiya Ben.

Have the same Dac as yourself and have been down the road of trying out USB cables, hope my experience can be helpful.

First:
Usb cables DO sound different, never "night and day" better but enough to notice that you miss what a good one does when it's not there.

I started off with the free one you get with printers, tried better constructed ones like the Belkin you mention and noticing the improvement got me curious to try others.
A mate of mine had the Wireworld Red on his system and I took over my Furutech Formula 2 which sounded noticeably better than the Wireworld.

The more expensive GT2 was better again and would be the one I reccommend.

That said, I use one I had made for me (by an AOS cable seller) and its better yet again.
Was a one off job though so he's not making any more unfortunately.


First off apologies if this has been covered before or elsewhere,

I am considering upgrading my system slightly and replacing my current Arcam rdac with a m2tech Young dac (seen one 2nd hand that's very local to me and am going round to see they guy and check it out this week with a view to buying it). The Young will be fed via usb from my pc and I hope that I wont really need to worry about the digital side of things for a few years now. Sooooooo with that in mind should I also look at some form of fancy USB cable to accompany this purchase or will any freebie usb cable do?

I have never experimented with usb cables before and im not sure if anyone has any suggestions? If it helps I think I will treating myself to a set of Mark grants G1000HD interconnects between the young and my amp.

I hope im not opening up a can of worms and please feel free to tell me to keep my money in my pocket if that's what you found lol.

cheers

Ben

[Ammonite Audio]

I do think that, where sound differences between USB cables exist, they are subtle and creep up on you, largely unaware. Certainly quick A/B comparisons are unlikely to reveal any great distinctions, unless one cable is so badly designed/constructed that it simply does not work correctly. It's on going back to the freebie cable, after some time, and finding 'something' missing, that helps me to justify the Kimber's astronomical £50 cost.

[kirstysdad]

I don't get this... surely a digital signal either is or it isn't, its 1 or 0, therefore can't be affected by cable differences like inductance, capacitance etc like an analogue cable is?:scratch:

As for not listening properly, is that a bit like not appreciating art because you haven't been taught it?

I can't cook, but I like good food, I can tell when a note is off key but I can't read music, and I can recognise a superior prick when I am confronted by one in a hifi shop even though I don't have a NVQ to say I'm trained to do so. ;)

Marco's "kick in the balls" is a stereotypical Glaswegian knee jerk response not applicable to all.:rolleyes:
Some of us prefer giving things proper thought.
Like fixing the offender to the floor with a nail gun and setting about them with a baseball bat called Snoopy. :chainsaw:

[brian2957]

+1 for the Furutech cables . In a usb cable test we had the Formula 2 saw off all the competition . The GT2 is even better , but expensive. What length do you need BTW ?

[Marco]

Marco's "kick in the balls" is a stereotypical Glaswegian knee jerk response not applicable to all.:rolleyes:
Some of us prefer giving things proper thought.
Like fixing the offender to the floor with a nail gun and setting about them with a baseball bat called Snoopy. :chainsaw:

Aye, now yer talkn' ma kinda lingo! :respect:

Marco.

[wee tee cee]

Hiya Ben.

Have the same Dac as yourself and have been down the road of trying out USB cables, hope my experience can be helpful.

First:
Usb cables DO sound different, never "night and day" better but enough to notice that you miss what a good one does when it's not there.

I started off with the free one you get with printers, tried better constructed ones like the Belkin you mention and noticing the improvement got me curious to try others.
A mate of mine had the Wireworld Red on his system and I took over my Furutech Formula 2 which sounded noticeably better than the Wireworld.

The more expensive GT2 was better again and would be the one I reccommend.

That said, I use one I had made for me (by an AOS cable seller) and its better yet again.
Was a one off job though so he's not making any more unfortunately.

It wisnae a one off, yer maun made me one too!....I agree its the best I have tried!!

Bloody faff involved in making the bugger though!!

[wee tee cee]

Fuck being a hi fi salesman....get yer cunt kicked for suggesting a punter is a manto. (glasgow rhyming slang for mantovani aka ya fanny).

[Marco]

Lol... Just treat yer customers with respect and yer boz will be quite safe! :D

Marco.

[struth]

A lot of car salesmen are just as bad...bassas' !! I had my revenge:eyebrows:

[kirstysdad]

Fuck being a hi fi salesman....get yer cunt kicked for suggesting a punter is a manto. (glasgow rhyming slang for mantovani aka ya fanny).

TBH, some punters are absolute pretentious jumped up numpties who will waste several hours of a working bloke's time agonising over the finest nuance, getting 3 home auditions and then fucking off and buying an item somewhere else cheaper...
:ner:

[Marco]

Yeah, and those f*ckers deserve a good boot in the boz, too! ;)

Marco.

[Joe]

This whole 'not listening properly' bollocks seemed to start with Chris Frankland and the Flat Earth mafia back in the '80s, and is still being spouted by someone who used to post here a lot but doesn't any more, maybe he's banned or summat.

Anyway, it's bollocks. You don't need to be 'trained' to listen, and anyone who says you do has an agenda, which is usually, though not invariably, either that they want to sell you something or that they want you to endorse their own purchasing decisions. In their view, if you don't like the sound something makes, that's not because you have different tastes/requirements, but because 'you're not listening properly'.

[RevAmp]

I have not personally tried different USB cables, however I cannot see why it would make a difference as it is a digital signal, i.e. it either works or doesn't! If the cable didn't transmit the digital signal, you wouldn't hear anything!

I find it hard to believe that you could buy a USB cable that didn't transmit a digital signal (but you could probably find one on ebay if you really tried!).

I have had a similar issue with cheap HDMI cables before where they just didn't work, so the same principle would apply. It has been proven that a cheap HDMI cable (that works) is no worse than a very expensive one.

[Gazjam]

Fuck being a hi fi salesman....get yer cunt kicked for suggesting a punter is a manto. (glasgow rhyming slang for mantovani aka ya fanny).

Post of the Day!
Manto...not heard than in years.

[kirstysdad]

Post of the Day!
Manto...not heard than in years.
+1
It made me laugh out loud, not LOL, but properly! I'd never heard it before... but the bit about having one's cunt kicked in got me pishin masel'.

BTW, back on topic, I've posted summat on Blank Canvas about listening to audio quality, not entirely scientific but a bit of fun:cool:

[Gordon Steadman]

This whole 'not listening properly' bollocks seemed to start with Chris Frankland and the Flat Earth mafia back in the '80s, and is still being spouted by someone who used to post here a lot but doesn't any more, maybe he's banned or summat.

Anyway, it's bollocks. You don't need to be 'trained' to listen, and anyone who says you do has an agenda, which is usually, though not invariably, either that they want to sell you something or that they want you to endorse their own purchasing decisions. In their view, if you don't like the sound something makes, that's not because you have different tastes/requirements, but because 'you're not listening properly'.

Spot on. Mind you, it may well have just become habit as my wife says I never listen to her properly either:)

[Marco]

Ah, 'selective deafness' - you can't beat it! ;)

Marco.

[cyclopse]

I have not personally tried different USB cables, however I cannot see why it would make a difference as it is a digital signal, i.e. it either works or doesn't! If the cable didn't transmit the digital signal, you wouldn't hear anything!

I find it hard to believe that you could buy a USB cable that didn't transmit a digital signal (but you could probably find one on ebay if you really tried!).

I have had a similar issue with cheap HDMI cables before where they just didn't work, so the same principle would apply. It has been proven that a cheap HDMI cable (that works) is no worse than a very expensive one.

Does this mean a quality digital interconnect is a waste of time then and the fact that AES/EBU, SPIDF, Toslink and AT & T all sound different?

[Stratmangler]

Does this mean a quality digital interconnect is a waste of time then and the fact that AES/EBU, SPIDF, Toslink and AT & T all sound different?

Do they?
I hear no difference in sound playing a CD from my Bluray player over Toslink into my DAC, and the ripped files from the CD via my Squeezebox Touch over coaxial SPDIF into the same DAC.
I recently did just that, got the two almost synched up and switched between the two on the DAC.

Audiophilia Nervosa is not something I suffer from any more :eyebrows:

[cyclopse]

I know from experience cable debates can end in tears.

My personal experience was that my external hard drive sounded dull and flat until I replaced the stock USB with Kimber AG USB.

Noticed difference on TV as soon as stock DVI was replaced with Wireworld Silver.

Just describing my experiences. I think there is more going on than just 0 & 1s.

[Gazjam]

Digital is actually analogue, as are our ears...

[RevAmp]

If anyone's still interested, here is a good article to back up my earlier comments:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/10827699/Crossed-wires-are-expensive-cables-a-waste-of-money.html

Half way down is the opinion of Patrick Gaydecki who is a professor of digital signal processing at the University of Manchester’s School of Electrical and Electronic Engineering, so much better qualified than I.

I guess though that this is one of those arguments that will always be with us as once again it comes down to a matter of opinion and subjective listening.

Analogue cables are a different story though....!

[wee tee cee]

Gary and Brian have done an awful lot of cable experimentation. Ive sat in on a number of sessions and really enjoyed the education.
Anything that flows current can change the sound-if you want to know about the digital side Gary would be hard to beat.
As with every element in this hobby-its not the ingredients but how you mix them( unfortunately this takes loads of /work/practice/time/listening).

There aint no one fix.....

[mikmas]

I remember reading a lengthy (and very convincing) article about how not all USB cables are created equal and that bog standard USB data cables are definitely not suited to audio applications.

Twas very complicated and made my head hurt but I'll see if I still have the link and can inflict it on this thread :lol:

[brian2957]

Wouldn't it be easier just to try a couple of USB cables for yourself in your own system :)

[keiron99]

Surely if USB cables can influence the sound (and I don't believe they do, nor have I seen or heard any evidence to suggest they do), then it would stand to reason (which it doesn't!) that the storage unit itself (hard disk, SSD etc) could also have an impact.

[Stratmangler]

I remember reading a lengthy (and very convincing) article about how not all USB cables are created equal and that bog standard USB data cables are definitely not suited to audio applications

That'll be from one of the foo cable makers then ;)
The only time I've noticed a USB cable making any difference was when I was recording - I used a USB 1.1 cable, and I had a message pop up on the screen that told me the cable couldn't support 24/192 file recording/playback (not that I record at that bit depth and sample rate).
A switch back to the supplied USB 2.0 cable and things were back at full speed.

I currently use a Belkin 5m length of USB 2.0 cable, bought from my local Tesco for far more than they normally go for (needed a cable there and then, and Tesco had one - usual story).
Mine cost about £10.00 .

[cyclopse]

Surely if USB cables can influence the sound (and I don't believe they do, nor have I seen or heard any evidence to suggest they do), then it would stand to reason (which it doesn't!) that the storage unit itself (hard disk, SSD etc) could also have an impact.

Well they do market linear power supplies for external hard drives and routers.

[Jankoff]

I have no knowledge in physics or electrical engineering! But I like to read about HiFi/HiEnd, I love music and I have ears. And I have 40 years of experience in listening to different audio components, including cables.
To me, there has never been the slightest doubt whether cables matter. They do!
But today I am also fully convinced that USB cables matter! And, what is more - and this was slightly surprising even for me, it turned out that even a BNC cable running from a master clock to a USB interface (with BNC connectors) matters in sonic terms! Yes! A lot!
When I got the M2Tech Clock - USB-Interface combo, I had to hook up the two components (BNC connection). I started with an ordinary cable, then I had a fairly good one made for me, and finally a top-notch one. And every time there was a definite improvement! However, now I do not want to talk about BNC cables, I want to relate my experience with USB cables (in audio terms).

USB devices and USB cables for audio use is something still rather new and rare. You cannot easily have access to it in a HiFi shop, let alone in an electronics store. Therefore I believe that my opinion may be of interest to some people here.
I have already had experience with 4 USB cables for audio. I own them (I use the three good ones), and they are:
(1) a standard €1 USB cable used to connect printers etc.;
(2) the Oehlbach USB audio cable (about €30 per meter)
(3) the Inakustik Premium High Speed USB audio cable (about €12 per meter)
(4) the AQVOX audio cable (€139 per 75cm)

Summary of my experience.
First, an ordinary USB cable is not to be used for audio. It simply degrades the sound.
Second, money matters when choosing an USB audio cable! But sometimes in a reverse relation!
Hence, third, everyone should be careful when buying a USB cable for audio!

I first bought the Oehlbach USB audio cable and listened to it a lot. It sounds far better than an ordinary USB cable.
Then I read the USB audio cable ratings published in the German AUDIO magazine. They rate the Inakustik Premium High Speed USB audio cable higher than the Oehlbach USB audio cable! And the Oehlbach costs three times more than the Inakustik. I find their assessment correct!
Finally, after reading very carefully all the descriptions of the 20 or so USB cables in the AUDIO magazine - along with many other opinions and reviews in the Internet, I bought the AQVOX cable. AUDIO rates it higher than other much more expensive cables.
See here http://www.connect.de/bildergalerie/usb-kabel-im-test-1164305-232062.html. And I am very happy with the purchase!
Caution: don't think that simply buying the "correct" cable immediately brings about audio improvements! The results will depend on your system, in many, various and subtle ways!
I am afraid this has already become a rather large post, so I'll stop here and repeat what I used as a title.
Cables matter, and USB cables matter a lot!
But don't believe me - see and hear for yourselves!
:pub:

[StanleyB]

As far as USB cables are concerned, I got one in my box of items with odd faults that is worth mentioning. It works fine with audio up to 96kHz and Shared mode. But when used at 192kHz and exclusive mode, it tends not to want to work. I have absolutely no idea why and how it does that.

[Rothchild]

Thanks for the insight, i'm a little confused though.



Caution: don't think that simply buying the "correct" cable immediately brings about audio improvements! The results will depend on your system, in many, various and subtle ways!




Cables matter, and USB cables matter a lot!


So is that 'matter a lot' or 'differences are various and subtle'?

[Jankoff]

Thanks for the insight, i'm a little confused though.
So is that 'matter a lot' or 'differences are various and subtle'?

USB cables matter a lot in a well setup system in which the components, including cables, are more or less at the same level, with no component letting the system down. A system is as good as its worst link. If one component in a system is weak, how can we expect for the good properties of the other components to be revealed? Apart from the quality of the CD transport, the DAC, the pre-amp, the amps, and the balance between them, things like power cables, mains sockets, power filters, various anti-vibration devices etc. also contribute to the good sound. Even mains fuses do - many people say so! I don't know - I don't have a HiFi mains fuse. Perhaps the only thing I don't have. Shame on me, nonetheless!
Most of the above-mentioned things are DIY! No reason to buy them ready-made from Hi-End boutiques. Instead of paying exorbitant prices for such thingies, using one's (and/or one's friends') technical skill, one can make these at home at a much lower cost, using one's creativity and esthetic vision at the same time.
A simple example: adding African black granite slab (slabs) to an appropriate shelf/rack in the relevant shape adds not only solidity to the sound of the system but also beauty to one's home interior. I have made tests with the SQ of my system using glass, wood, stone, marble and granite in my iron rack. The following is true: components resting on glass have glassy sound. Resting on wood, they have wooden sound, etc.
Someone thinks the above must be a joke? In the morning, please, strike your coffee spoon against wood! What you will hear is a wooden sound, right! Strike it against glass - the sound will be glassy.
Best is when components rest on black granite. Is black granite expensive? No, when you take into account that it will lend beauty to your interior for the life of your house and will give you thousands of hours of high-quality sound.
So when a system is electronically, electrically and physically (antivibration-wise) well setup and balanced, a USB cable will matter a lot! As will any other important cable for that matter!
What is an important cable? Let me explain what was the greatest upgrade I ever had in my system. It was when I changed my mains socket with a platinum one. (Furutech, only the core, €50! Buy the whole socket, they charge you €150! This means €100 - for a beautiful frame that you will never see behind the rack!)
Why was this the greatest upgrade? Very simple. Because changing the mains socket with a platinum one - having a mains filter with several sockets, you actually upgrade five components simultaneously: the transport, the DAC, the pre-amp, and the two power amps, providing them with better current.
Similarly with the USB cable. When you boost the performance of the USB-interface with a good USB cable, you also boost the performance of the five other components after it!
And if one or more of these components is not up to the task - for some reason or other, it is then that the differences are likely to be "various and subtle".
I know that all this may seem controversial to some or many people. The good thing about it from my standpoint is that the permanent upgrading and tweaking throughout the years have given me pleasure and have yielded satisfactory results.
:cool:

[Yomanze]

USB cables, well, it depends which forum you're on as to how much, if any, difference they make. :D

On a more serious note there are a lot of USB cables out there that do not meet the required spec, and there can be ground loop issues if the USB isn't galvanically isolated. If I did go down the line of trying new USB cables, then I'd make sure I had one that fully met the specs required to compare the 'fancy' ones to.

[Chunky70]

I use a Fisual USB. This one here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fisual-0-6m-Havana-USB-Cable/dp/B006249NHE
Cheap, well made and a slight improvment on a freebie. Don't need to spend any more than that IMHO.:)

[ScottL]

Oddly enough, my 0.9m version of that very wire arrived this morning. £7.49 inc. delivery well spent.

[Chunky70]

Nice one Scott:thumbsup:

[Yomanze]

Looks like exactly the sort of cable I would go for. Freebies and cheapo cables can have issues...

[ScottL]

You could do a heck of a lot worse.

[realysm42]

Not read the whole thread but that point people bang on about 'its digital, therefore flawless' is not true. Usb cables carry an analogue approximation of the digital signal, so what you get is a situation where the signal needs protection.

'But my printer works ok!' They jest, but not really joking. Yes but printers have time to correct/buffer the information, the audio application doesn't have that luxury. Error correction also adds jitter, aka noise.

I use 3x curious cables in my rig, with an uptone regen, very clean and organic sound. Reasonably priced too (this replaced a compete ifi setup with upgraded longdog linear psu).