View Full Version : In praise of the sme v
talisman2
11-07-2015, 19:38
I was at my good friend Richards house this afternoon to listen to his new piece of ‘kit’ , namely an SME V tonearm which is mounted on his late fathers Technics SL 110 turntable (this is not a ‘bake-off’ or review ,so no pics I’m afraid ) and I have got to say that it sounded superb , and a vast improvement on the (also excellent) SME 309 it replaced.
I seem to remember a member of AOS describing the ‘V’ as “more of a statement than an effective device” , and although I respect that he is entitled to his opinion, I’m afraid that I could not disagree more (after all thousands of ‘V’ owners can’t be all wrong) it made a fantastic job of convincing me that Leonard Cohen had called in to see us and ‘give’ us a song !!!!
walpurgis
11-07-2015, 19:47
What was the cartridge and rest of the system Alf?
Wakefield Turntables
11-07-2015, 19:53
a member of AOS describing the ‘V’ as “more of a statement than an effective device”
What gumph. I've had mine for 10 years and not heard anything any better.
I was at my good friend Richards house this afternoon to listen to his new piece of ‘kit’ , namely an SME V tonearm which is mounted on his late fathers Technics SL 110 turntable (this is not a ‘bake-off’ or review ,so no pics I’m afraid ) and I have got to say that it sounded superb , and a vast improvement on the (also excellent) SME 309 it replaced.
I seem to remember a member of AOS describing the ‘V’ as “more of a statement than an effective device” , and although I respect that he is entitled to his opinion, I’m afraid that I could not disagree more (after all thousands of ‘V’ owners can’t be all wrong) it made a fantastic job of convincing me that Leonard Cohen had called in to see us and ‘give’ us a song !!!!
Just wait till he upgrades to a rega RB303, it will blow your socks off!
Oldpinkman
12-07-2015, 06:37
The sme v is a beautiful bit of engineering, a joy to use, and a capable fairly neutral arm. It was one of 2 that were fitted to the factory pt anniversaries when I was there (the other, my favourite with the technics cartridge, was the helius orion)
But 20 years or more since launch there has been no significant development and the world has caught up and passed it. There is a sme at the funk factory as a reference arm. The fx3 is far more detailed and articulate. Frankly I prefer the f5 to the sme. Good arm, but dated and bettered.
Gordon Steadman
12-07-2015, 06:49
I have always admired SME arms as works of art quite apart from their undoubted good performance. I have heard a number now and always been impressed but they were always out of my price range.
I use a OL modified Rega now but that is bettered by my linear tracker...in my system and to my tastes. This pushing Rega is looking to be a trend.
Oldpinkman
12-07-2015, 06:55
I have always admired SME arms as works of art quite apart from their undoubted good performance. I have heard a number now and always been impressed but they were always out of my price range.
I use a OL modified Rega now but that is bettered by my linear tracker...in my system and to my tastes. This pushing Rega is looking to be a trend.
A little implausibly. The rb303 is fair enough for the money, but not in the sme v class. :scratch:
talisman2
12-07-2015, 07:22
hi geoff , cartridge was a Transfigeration Spirit , Krell power amp ATC pre and B & W 801s
What gumph. I've had mine for 10 years and not heard anything any better.
Amen my SME brother- looks TOO cool also.:cool:
Oldpinkman
12-07-2015, 07:43
What gumph. I've had mine for 10 years and not heard anything any better.
Is that a statement that the SME V is faultless, perfect, and will remain so eternally? If not, do you think it is your hearing, or the relative lack of alternatives auditioned which accounts for the problem? :scratch:
Is that a statement that the SME V is faultless, perfect, and will remain so eternally?
I read it that Rexton hasn't heard anything better than an SME V. Is anything 'faultless'?
Gordon Steadman
12-07-2015, 07:54
I read it that Rexton hasn't heard anything better than an SME V. Is anything 'faultless'?
Only me:D
Wakefield Turntables
12-07-2015, 10:09
Is that a statement that the SME V is faultless, perfect, and will remain so eternally? If not, do you think it is your hearing, or the relative lack of alternatives auditioned which accounts for the problem? :scratch:
How the hell did you come that ludicrous statement? Somtimes people read FAR too much into a statement. Have you purposefully produced this statement just to piss me off?
Is that a statement that the SME V is faultless, perfect, and will remain so eternally? If not, do you think it is your hearing, or the relative lack of alternatives auditioned which accounts for the problem? :scratch:
Yup, a wee bit provocative, Pinky! :spank: ;)
The SME V is a good tonearm, but there are others in my experience, which when used in an appropriate context, can musically outperform it.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
13-07-2015, 07:09
Yup, a wee bit provocative, Pinky! :spank: ;)
The SME V is a good tonearm, but there are others in my experience, which when used in an appropriate context, can musically outperform it.
Marco.
Not at all. Comments have a context. I was seeking a clarification to a comment from Rexton which started with a quote and "what gumph". He didn't say, out of a clear blue sky, "I don't have much experience of other arms, but I've owned an SME for 10 years and been really pleased with it". He responded to a comment made by another member, effectively saying "maybe the SME V's status owes more to its cult following, SME's huge marketing influence, and the large number of owners from the days 20+ years ago when it represented a huge step forward, than it does to any real claim to being the best sounding arm".
And his response was "what gumph" - dismissing the valid views of another forum member. A bit pompous - very authoratative. I could have replied "what gumph - if you had listened to a few decent arms instead of the vin ordinaire you selected, you'd realise how the SME is good but not great"
But that would have been pompous - and presumptive (that Rexton had only listened to run of the mill arms, and had no decent point of reference for commenting on the SME V's merits, like say the Graham arm) so I tried for deferential instead, and asked for a clarification.
Taken out of context "I've had mine for 10 years and heard nothing better" is meaningless - unless as a statement that all that matters is what Rexton thinks and likes for himself. "In 25 years the GL75 arm is the finest arm my Mum has heard" is true and about as usefull. Or I could say "I had an SME V once, but changed it for a Mission 774, and in 15 years of using the Mission I never heard a finer arm". That statement is also true, but I changed from SME V to Mission 774 because I had to give back the company car, and the "pool car" was what was on offer. And I never heard an arm better than the 774 in 15 years, because I didn't listen to any other arms in that time. (Which isnt to say that the 774 isnt an excellent arm, much under-rated)
There is a context. And I sought to clarify it. If Rextons reference points are the ubiquitous forum favourites of moderate Regas, Origon live offerings, and the legendary Jelco, then small wonder the SME V is the best he's heard.
There is a famous definition of stupidity, which is "to keep trying the same thing, and to expect a different outcome". To which I might add the quote of Albert Einstein on Funks website- "There are only two things which are infinite. The Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not completely certain about the Universe"
I'm sorry if my comment was taken as hostile, but I feel Rextons comment, given its context and pompous (Gumph)dismissal of the valid views of another forum member, needed a clarification.
:)
Yeah, sure. For me, as ever in these instances, it's not so much about *what* is written, but rather how it's written. Essentially, it's about the appropriate use of language.
The tone of Andy's post was rather grouchy, and your reply to him continued the theme, by being more than a little condescending. Being provocative, rather than respectful, rarely results in the other person accepting your point of view.
Therefore, the key is to treat each other's opinions with the appropriate respect [respecting someone's right to hold them], even if you don't agree with the content, or think it's 'nonsense', and to argue politely in defence of your contrary view, by playing the ball, not the man. That's how harmony is maintained. It's all in the AoS ethos :)
...we would like to provide our members with a place where they feel that they can be themselves and express their views on hi-fi, music, and any other permitted subject, without peer pressure, one-upmanship, and a feeling of having to conform to some accepted ‘norm’. There are no cliques, hidden agendas, nor any preferential treatment given; and not only will our members themselves be treated with respect but also their opinions and observations, particularly those of people who may not have the same level of experience with hi-fi as others. With that in mind, the forum will be strictly but fairly moderated.
Marco.
I personally didn't interpret Rexton's comment as pompous.
Whether the 'other members' point about form over function was valid or not is entirely subjective also.
If Rextons reference points are the ubiquitous forum favourites of moderate Regas, Origon live offerings, and the legendary Jelco, then small wonder the SME V is the best he's heard.
But this is 100% assumption on your part.
There is a famous definition of stupidity, which is "to keep trying the same thing, and to expect a different outcome". To which I might add the quote of Albert Einstein on Funks website- "There are only two things which are infinite. The Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not completely certain about the Universe"
How does including this in your thread contribute anything other than suggesting you think someone is stupid?
I'm sorry if my comment was taken as hostile, but I feel Rextons comment, given its context and pompous (Gumph)dismissal of the valid views of another forum member, needed a clarification.
Calling people stupid is pretty hostile.
I am in a great position to be able to audition most products, mass market or otherwise yet still my arm of choice for my current TT, system etc. is the IV.
I was actually considering a contribution to this thread but to be honest it's exactly this kind of unnecessary and unprovoked hostility that makes me think, screw that, I'm out!
How does including this in your thread contribute anything other than suggesting you think someone is stupid?
Calling people stupid is pretty hostile.
I do agree, as that's what was being inferred, and it certainly wasn't helpful.
Marco.
There is a famous definition of stupidity, which is "to keep trying the same thing, and to expect a different outcome". To which I might add the quote of Albert Einstein on Funks website- "There are only two things which are infinite. The Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not completely certain about the Universe"
As Kierkegaard put it 'When one is in a hole, it is better to stop digging'.
Oldpinkman
13-07-2015, 09:00
I personally didn't interpret Rexton's comment as pompous.
But this is 100% assumption on your part.
How does including this in your thread contribute anything other than suggesting you think someone is stupid?
Yes - it would be 100% assumption, were I to have said that - which is why in my first post I asked for a clarification of which arms Rexton has heard instead of making that assumption.
The quote about stupidity is famous, and, normally interpreted as humorous. It means " often people keep doing things the same way, like listening to tonearms which are basically similar, a hollow metal tube, and so the results they get are - unsurpisingly similar. If you try something radically different - a thread bearing, a Unipivot, a crossbraced arm tube - then they have a chance of sounding different"
Its not about "you're stupid". It's about - if you want to get something different - do something different, instead of keep trying tiny variations on basically the same theme.
Like I say - outside the world of HiFi forums it is generally considered humorous. (I can't be sure, because he isn't there to ask any more - but I have a feeling Einstein was having a shot at humour too)
I'm very happy you like your SME IV. It's quite nice and relatively inexpensive for the fine engineering. I have heard several arms which I much prefer for listening to music. And believe it or not, so have quite a few others out in the big world of HiFi.
:cool:
Snoopdog
13-07-2015, 09:04
I bought an SME V when it first came out in 1987. At the time, it was the right choice for my Oxford Acoustics Crystal Reference turntable and Koetsu Rosewood Signature mc cartridge.
I kept that combo for 21 years and have many fond memories of the music it made.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/crystalref/381.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/crystalref/media/381.jpg.html)
The quote about stupidity is famous, and, normally interpreted as humorous.
Yes, provided one is familiar with the quote, and therefore that's how it is interpreted. What's 'famous' to you could be unknown to someone else. The danger in these situations is presuming that what you know, others will automatically know.
Also, that what you consider as humorous will be appreciated as such by others - and crucially - when that's patently NOT the case (and in fact has caused offence), to accept it and make amends for it, rather than apportioning the 'blame' on the other person, simply because he or she wasn't on the same wavelength... ;)
Marco.
I bought an SME V when it first came out in 1987. At the time, it was the right choice for my Oxford Acoustics Crystal Reference turntable and Koetsu Rosewood Signature mc cartridge.
I kept that combo for 21 years and have many fond memories of the music it made.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/crystalref/381.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/crystalref/media/381.jpg.html)
That looks the BIZ Steve! not seen that one b4.
And believe it or not, so have quite a few others out in the big world of HiFi.
You were doing so well! And then in an ironic twist of events you just had to be pompous and condescending.
Of course, one thing this thread highlights is the impossibility (and undesirability) of attempting to rank hifi equipment in terms good, better and best. Who gets to decide what the ranking should be, and on what criteria? How important are such things as build quality and sample consistency? Is ease of use also a factor?
In terms of sound quality, all the fancy jargon about timing, detail, soundstage, shape of notes, leading edges etc etc comes down to: 'Do I like the sound this equipment is making?', a subjective question to which there is no 'correct' answer.
So, although context is a factor, and it's useful to know what comparators have been used to conclude that X is the best tonearm, amp, CDP or whatever, the individual's preference cannot be disproved, even if it's not one's own.
Gordon Steadman
13-07-2015, 10:19
You were doing so well! And then in an ironic twist of events you just had to be pompous and condescending.
As far as people having had experience of all this different hi-fi, it depends on a number of things. Firstly aural memory is notoriously fickle. Secondly, they were listening with their ears not mine. Thirdly, I need to see a list of all the arms they have listened to, with which cartridge, which deck, amplifier and speakers and then I want to see a copy of the receipts.
Only then will I half accept that their opinion has any relevance to my hi-fi, listening habits and choice of music.
I could claim the same. I've been listening to hi-fi for over 50 years and have heard so much stuff I remember a fraction of it. I have no idea how any of it would compare to what I'm listening to now.
I do remember listening to an SME versus the Mission and preferred the SME. Nothing proved whatsoever.
As far as people having had experience of all this different hi-fi, it depends on a number of things. Firstly aural memory is notoriously fickle. Secondly, they were listening with their ears not mine. Thirdly, I need to see a list of all the arms they have listened to, with which cartridge, which deck, amplifier and speakers and then I want to see a copy of the receipts.
I'd also insist on at least a sketch plan, and preferably a photograph, of their listening room. For all I know, they might be listening in a 6 foot square cubbyhole. A photograph would have the added advantage of enabling me to assess their taste in interior decoration, and to scan their bookshelves for evidence of literary preferences.
Snoopdog
13-07-2015, 10:25
That looks the BIZ Steve! not seen that one b4.
Thanks Grant! I found some old photos when I went to sell it in 2009, so will start a new thread "Anatomy of a turntable!"
The Oxford was a great turntable and was very well reviewed by Martin Colloms in Hi Fi News at the time. He favourably compared it's performance with a Goldmund turntable which was mega-bucks!
Gordon Steadman
13-07-2015, 10:28
I'd also insist on at least a sketch plan, and preferably a photograph, of their listening room. For all I know, they might be listening in a 6 foot square cubbyhole. A photograph would have the added advantage of enabling me to assess their taste in interior decoration, and to scan their bookshelves for evidence of literary preferences.
:lol:
The Black Adder
13-07-2015, 10:47
I didn't know the IV was that olde.
I'd like to see what another SME would sound on my TD124.. but for now my Audio Origami-fied 3009 S2 (None imp.) is staying. It's really quite smashing!
I'm sure it does, matey. Also, don't rule out the Series M2 (stainless steel-based) arms, as those can sound fab, offering superb SPPV - way more than the magnesium arms do that most folk go for, automatically presuming as better, when that isn't always the case, especially in some contexts, with a 309 versus the M2-9R... ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
13-07-2015, 11:15
I bought an SME V when it first came out in 1987. At the time, it was the right choice for my Oxford Acoustics Crystal Reference turntable and Koetsu Rosewood Signature mc cartridge.
I kept that combo for 21 years and have many fond memories of the music it made.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/crystalref/381.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/crystalref/media/381.jpg.html)
It is one of my regrets Steve that I did not try to buy your Oxford but the logistical distance was ultimately a factor that stopped it.
Regards Neil
Well I like my Kuzma arm so there.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/crystalref/381.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/crystalref/media/381.jpg.html)
That's a lovely looking, T/T! :stalks:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
13-07-2015, 12:04
Always seems that threads re SME tonearms on here go off the rails :(
I am fortunate that I own some of the best arms about and I have been able to directly and recently compare them. I have said it before that I prefer the sound of my old 309 over the more recent magnesium version. Part of that might though be down to the type of internal wiring which wasn't VDH at the time, though the output cable supplied was.
The SME 5 is an old design but with other very mature arms still getting excellent rating (I am thinking EMT here) I don't think that is a factor. What I have long wanted to do is compare a 5 wired without VDH internal cabling as I am pretty sure that cable choice holds ultimate performance back. I don't like VDH.
Anyway without being able to do comparisons this is a hunch not a fact, though not using the awful (imho) VDH output cable does help a lot.
Interestingly a number of American companies when buying SME arms for use there don't have them wired with VDH. Most notably the Sumiko SME4 vi which was a 'Series IV.Vi arm. This arm is a version of SME’s best arm, the Series V, made especially for Sumiko: identical but with the V’s Van den Hul internal wiring replaced by 50-gauge Magnan Type Vi, and the V’s dynamic tracking-force eliminated in favor of static adjustment' (http://www.resfreq.com/smemodel202install/reviewofsme20.html)
I know when this arm was reviewed by Stereophile they rated it as slightly better than a 5.
A number of years ago I did ask SME if I could buy one of these, they refused, they also would not supply me with Magnan cable either, as Sumiko supply it to them
What can be said is fit and finish is about the best there is. The instructions are first rate and no other company has instruction like this - shame on Graham, Triplanar, Funk, Origin Live, Rega etc. SME are excellent to deal with, consistent and helpful and keep spares for pretty much everything. The arm is easy to set up and works brilliantly but it isn't a universal arm. Like everything ultimate performance relies on synergy and the SME doesn't work on every TT or with every cartridge.
Frankly I don't think its a good choice on a Technics unless one likes a very neutral, almost clinically bland presentation - this can to a degree be countered with a more colourful slightly warmer cartridge and non VDH output armcable. My own view is that the more up market Origin Live arms and Funk suit better. I haven't heard Marcos Ortofon arm but again I feel it and the SPU might sit to the more colourful side of neutral thus countering the clinical, somewhat cool Technics sound. We could discuss this aspect re belt drives being more coloured etc and DD being more neutral but I don't think its the technology as such but more a case of how individual products sound, not one technology being better overall than the other. I recently heard an AMG Giro, a belt drive and it pissed all over every TT I own, DD and belt drive.
Re Pink Mans comments re Pink Triangle - the SME 4 and 5 sounded fabulous on a PT Anniversary, very much a match made in heaven (where I worked at the time we supplied this pairing with Kiseki carts) as was the case with the Oxford, though an Air Tangent was considered the ultimate choice for the time period.
As to what's best or not, much depends on system, turntable and cart choice. On some I have no doubt the SME 5 sounds fab, but the Graham Phantom (not the older Graham 2 series) is overall a more musical arm in my experience to date, which is why I use it on my SME Model 20 turntable.
However in saying all that I won't be selling my SME 5, it may not be the best arm in the world but it is still a good arm worth keeping.
Regards Neil
Firebottle
13-07-2015, 12:16
Good post :thumbsup:
As to what's best or not, much depends on system, turntable and cart choice.
And this is pretty much exactly the point.
I spent the last 6 months listening to a plethora of arms, carts, armboards, platters etc. to arrive where I am today. I am 100% confident that I won't be even be thinking about buying any more hifi for a while.
I am truly looking foward to getting back to collecting records and playing music!
The thing is I make my choices based on my carts, on my arm, on my deck, with my amps, my speakers, my room and my music. Sometimes my choices are similar to those of the majority but often are not. Ultimately, I couldn't be happier.
Frankly I don't think its a good choice on a Technics unless one likes a very neutral, almost clinically bland presentation - this can to a degree be countered with a more colourful slightly warmer cartridge and non VDH output armcable. My own view is that the more up market Origin Live arms and Funk suit better.
That's interesting. I do indeed definitely like what some may call 'clinical'.
I found the Origin Live Silver mk3A to be definitely at the higher end of performance in terms of its price. Despite being cheaper I preferred it to the 309 but the IV and V were significantly further ahead still.
As I understand it the 309 is still supplied with a standard OFC VDH cable whereas the IV and V are now both supplied with the Silver Hybrid version.
To be honest I didn't try the hybrid cable on the 309 nor did I try any aftermarket cables but it was kind of unnecessary once I'd settled on the IV.
Spectral Morn
13-07-2015, 12:45
And this is pretty much exactly the point.
I spent the last 6 months listening to a plethora of arms, carts, armboards, platters etc. to arrive where I am today. I am 100% confident that I won't be even be thinking about buying any more hifi for a while.
I am truly looking foward to getting back to collecting records and playing music!
The thing is I make my choices based on my carts, on my arm, on my deck, with my amps, my speakers, my room and my music. Sometimes my choices are similar to those of the majority but often are not. Ultimately, I couldn't be happier.
That's interesting. I do indeed definitely like what some may call 'clinical'.
I found the Origin Live Silver mk3A to be definitely at the higher end of performance in terms of its price. Despite being cheaper I preferred it to the 309 but the IV and V were significantly further ahead still.
As I understand it the 309 is still supplied with a standard OFC VDH cable whereas the IV and V are now both supplied with the Silver Hybrid version.
To be honest I didn't try the hybrid cable on the 309 nor did I try any aftermarket cables but it was kind of unnecessary once I'd settled on the IV.
Hi Adam
The 309 I was referring to was the first version, which I bought originally to go on a Voyd Valdi, a bad choice the Rega 300 which I used before was vastly better on that TT. This was in the early 90s.
To date I have tried Funk FX3, SME 5, Graham 2.2, Origin Live Silver, Origin Live Encounter and Illustrious, Jelco 750. I have a plan to try the Graham Phantom but I don't think it will fit and one other arm I hope to try. However todate I prefer the FX3, Encounter and Illustrious over the SME 5 or other arms, though the Jelco 750 and Denon DL103 sounds very good.
I would definitely suggest trying any output (except the Jelco one yuck) cable over and above the VDHs - you are in for a shock I feel.
Regards Neil
I would definitely suggest trying any output (except the Jelco one yuck) cable over and above the VDHs - you are in for a shock I feel.
Thanks Neil. I'm usually quite suspicious of cable claims but I will certinly bear it in mind should curiosity get the better of me.
Always seems that threads re SME tonearms on here go off the rails :(
I am fortunate that I own some of the best arms about and I have been able to directly and recently compare them. I have said it before that I prefer the sound of my old 309 over the more recent magnesium version. Part of that might though be down to the type of internal wiring which wasn't VDH at the time, though the output cable supplied was.
The SME 5 is an old design but with other very mature arms still getting excellent rating (I am thinking EMT here) I don't think that is a factor. What I have long wanted to do is compare a 5 wired without VDH internal cabling as I am pretty sure that cable choice holds ultimate performance back. I don't like VDH.
Anyway without being able to do comparisons this is a hunch not a fact, though not using the awful (imho) VDH output cable does help a lot.
Interestingly a number of American companies when buying SME arms for use there don't have them wired with VDH. Most notably the Sumiko SME4 vi which was a 'Series IV.Vi arm. This arm is a version of SME’s best arm, the Series V, made especially for Sumiko: identical but with the V’s Van den Hul internal wiring replaced by 50-gauge Magnan Type Vi, and the V’s dynamic tracking-force eliminated in favor of static adjustment' (http://www.resfreq.com/smemodel202install/reviewofsme20.html)
I know when this arm was reviewed by Stereophile they rated it as slightly better than a 5.
A number of years ago I did ask SME if I could buy one of these, they refused, they also would not supply me with Magnan cable either, as Sumiko supply it to them
What can be said is fit and finish is about the best there is. The instructions are first rate and no other company has instruction like this - shame on Graham, Triplanar, Funk, Origin Live, Rega etc. SME are excellent to deal with, consistent and helpful and keep spares for pretty much everything. The arm is easy to set up and works brilliantly but it isn't a universal arm. Like everything ultimate performance relies on synergy and the SME doesn't work on every TT or with every cartridge.
Frankly I don't think its a good choice on a Technics unless one likes a very neutral, almost clinically bland presentation - this can to a degree be countered with a more colourful slightly warmer cartridge and non VDH output armcable. My own view is that the more up market Origin Live arms and Funk suit better. I haven't heard Marcos Ortofon arm but again I feel it and the SPU might sit to the more colourful side of neutral thus countering the clinical, somewhat cool Technics sound. We could discuss this aspect re belt drives being more coloured etc and DD being more neutral but I don't think its the technology as such but more a case of how individual products sound, not one technology being better overall than the other. I recently heard an AMG Giro, a belt drive and it pissed all over every TT I own, DD and belt drive.
Re Pink Mans comments re Pink Triangle - the SME 4 and 5 sounded fabulous on a PT Anniversary, very much a match made in heaven (where I worked at the time we supplied this pairing with Kiseki carts) as was the case with the Oxford, though an Air Tangent was considered the ultimate choice for the time period.
As to what's best or not, much depends on system, turntable and cart choice. On some I have no doubt the SME 5 sounds fab, but the Graham Phantom (not the older Graham 2 series) is overall a more musical arm in my experience to date, which is why I use it on my SME Model 20 turntable.
However in saying all that I won't be selling my SME 5, it may not be the best arm in the world but it is still a good arm worth keeping.
Regards Neil
Neil, l used a V on my Techie-er bland it was certainly was not- it rocked big time!:eek:- as it does on my Gyro.:cool:
But respect your opinion.:)
That looks the BIZ Steve! not seen that one b4.
That T/T Tonearm lookclassic and timeless- if there is a better looking tonearm out there l have yet to see it.:bonk:
Neil, l used a V on my Techie-er bland it was certainly was not- it rocked big time!:eek:- as it does on my Gyro.:cool:
But respect your opinion.:)
Ah well, there you go, a good example of how tastes differ and therefore so do ones references. You see, I'm not that keen on the sound of the Gyro (or Orbe) finding them a bit 'mater of fact' for my taste (no criticism of the build) - many happy owners will disagree with this :).
Regarding the V, it really is a remarkably enduring design and many aspects of its design are still followed by newly emerging manufacturers. I think it is a real testament to the quality of the original design that it has remained essentially unchanged for so long and is still genuinely considered a very top-flight performer (despite what others may like to believe). If it had never existed and was only released now it really wouldn't be behind the curve of most modern super arms and still ahead of many.
Spectral Morn
13-07-2015, 19:24
Neil, l used a V on my Techie-er bland it was certainly was not- it rocked big time!:eek:- as it does on my Gyro.:cool:
But respect your opinion.:)
I suspect its much better on your modified Gyro than on the Technics, re tonal shading and colour, a less clinical hifi sound - more musical than matter of fact.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
13-07-2015, 19:26
Ah well, there you go, a good example of how tastes differ and therefore so do ones references. You see, I'm not that keen on the sound of the Gyro (or Orbe) finding them a bit 'mater of fact' for my taste (no criticism of the build) - many happy owners will disagree with this :).
Regarding the V, it really is a remarkably enduring design and many aspects of its design are still followed by newly emerging manufacturers. I think it is a real testament to the quality of the original design that it has remained essentially unchanged for so long and is still genuinely considered a very top-flight performer (despite what others may like to believe). If it had never existed and was only released now it really wouldn't be behind the curve of most modern super arms and still ahead of many.
Weirdly I would never describe the sound of a Gyro or Orb as matter of fact, an SME 20 with 5 arm, yes. I am always fascinated how folks hear things and then relate their experience.
Regards Neil
Good postings- different strokes for different folks- but l will say again with a correctly matched cartridge the SME V can rock without a doubt.
The Gyrodec/SME V/ Denon DL103 l used to run boogied like the devil- incredibly musical- music was quite addictive- the Cadenza Black which l now run in the same T/T/ Arm is also very musical ( after a very shaky start it has to be said)- but a hell of a lot more refined.
Same with the Techie/SME V/Denon DL103 also rocked like a demon also.
l have read the Gyro/SME V can sound bland- not here matey, l suppose also amp/speaker matching is important, which l think l have nailed to produce a very musical sound.:)
Also the SME V is just stunning to look at- wanted one since l first set my eyes upon one as a youngster.:cool:
So yes l am biased- there probably better tonearms out there as well- just with the V you do not feel like seeking them out.
Peace.:)
walpurgis
13-07-2015, 20:19
if there is a better looking tonearm out there l have yet to see it.
http://i62.tinypic.com/9j3no0.jpg
Weirdly I would never describe the sound of a Gyro or Orb as matter of fact, an SME 20 with 5 arm, yes. I am always fascinated how folks hear things and then relate their experience.
Regards Neil
I can understand where you are coming from regarding your description of the SME but I would say that I am talking about a slightly different subjective aspect - such is the difficulty of describing such subjective qualities ;).
Spectral Morn
13-07-2015, 23:00
I can understand where you are coming from regarding your description of the SME but I would say that I am talking about a slightly different subjective aspect - such is the difficulty of describing such subjective qualities ;).
Indeed
Regards Neil
Indeed
Regards Neil
Agreed again.:)
http://i62.tinypic.com/9j3no0.jpg
Nurse! Nurse!:eek:
Oldpinkman
14-07-2015, 06:47
I had to laugh. I think my office is bugged. Now humour me guys - I get accused of all manner of bizarre conspiracy theories on HiFi forums, but honest guv
I don't own Bloomberg & I don't control their editorial policy
Are they losing it? Photographer: Jasper Juinen/Bloomberg
Europe's Insane Deal With Greece
69 Jul 13, 2015 11:24 AM EDT
By Eric Beinhocker
If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, the leaders of Europe and Greece are insane.
Are they losing it? Photographer: Jasper Juinen/BloombergFacebookTwitterLinkedInGoogle+EmailGreece Europe's Insane Deal With Greece69 Jul 13, 2015 11:24 AM EDTBy Eric BeinhockerIf the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, the leaders of Europe and Greece are insane.
Actually, if anyone is interested, the 3 current Bloomberg editorials about Greece provide a decent proper explanation of the situation. But I was just amused to find myself being quoted :)
What's that got to do with the thread topic, Richard? :scratch:
No offence, honestly, but I have to admit that I often struggle to understand what you're 'on about', when you go off on these tangents....
Marco.
P.S Plus your linky, no worky...
If the Greeks are forced out of the Euro, they may adopt the gold-plated SME V as the unit of currency.
Actually, this invoking of Einstein is known as an 'argument from authority'; in effect: 'Einstein was a smart bloke, Einstein said this, therefore this is true'. This pre-supposes that Einstein was infallible, whereas only the Pope in Council is.
Oldpinkman
14-07-2015, 10:23
If the Greeks are forced out of the Euro, they may adopt the gold-plated SME V as the unit of currency.
Actually, this invoking of Einstein is known as an 'argument from authority'; in effect: 'Einstein was a smart bloke, Einstein said this, therefore this is true'. This pre-supposes that Einstein was infallible, whereas only the Pope in Council is.
No. I just think it was supposed to be funny. Einstein was famous for a little twinkle in his eye and some humour.
Oldpinkman
14-07-2015, 10:29
What's that got to do with the thread topic, Richard? :scratch:
No offence, honestly, but I have to admit that I often struggle to understand what you're 'on about', when you go off on these tangents....
Marco.
P.S Plus your linky, no worky...
I know you insist on a reply every time, so
On this thread topic I used the very well known, old cliche joke "the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome" and this was held by other forum members to be not well known, and intended as an insult
2 days later, Bloomberg uses (almost) the same well known, old cliche joke "the definition of insanity..."
I was just pointing out that, honest guv, I didn't make it up - it is frightfully well known and quite often quoted, without intending to cause offence, as a way of illustrating a point that if you want a different outcome to anything, you need to try something different.
That's it. Not sure about the link, but Google Bloomberg, News, "opinion" and you get their editorial. 3 good 'uns on the Greek situation.
:cool:
Edit: try this one http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-07-13/europe-s-insane-deal-with-greece
No. I just think it was supposed to be funny. Einstein was famous for a little twinkle in his eye and some humour.
And, even more amusingly, it looks like he didn't say it anyway:
http://www.news.hypercrit.net/2012/11/13/einstein-on-misattribution-i-probably-didnt-say-that/
'I began looking into the quote to find out what Einstein actually said only to find that, in all likelihood, he never actually said or wrote the witticism about insanity.
According to Ryan Howes, writing in Psychology Today, the quote has been attributed to Einstein, Ben Franklin and Mark Twain. A good summary of the various places the quote has been used can be found here.
Franklin and Twain are almost certainly not the sources of the quote, witty as those fellows were. Online, sources commonly attribute the quote to Einstein in his Letters to Solovine: 1906-1955, although no one seems to be able to produce a page from that volume that holds the quote (and Google books searches have also come up empty).'
Ah, gotcha now! This bit is what caused the confusion:
2 days later, Bloomberg uses (almost) the same well known, old cliche joke "the definition of insanity..."
I don't watch 'Bloomberg'; indeed rarely do I follow the news these days, other than the local Welsh stuff, so I had no idea what you were referring to, and thus what it had to do with the discussion in hand. The Greece financial thing bores the pants off of me, as I'm fed up hearing about it any time I should happen to watch the news. Being an accountant, however, I appreciate that such things may excite you.
Remember though that others aren't necessarily into the same/follow the same stuff as you, and so may not instantly pick up on it, when you refer to it! ;)
Marco.
Hi Neil,
Frankly I don't think its a good choice on a Technics unless one likes a very neutral, almost clinically bland presentation - this can to a degree be countered with a more colourful slightly warmer cartridge and non VDH output armcable. My own view is that the more up market Origin Live arms and Funk suit better. I haven't heard Marcos Ortofon arm but again I feel it and the SPU might sit to the more colourful side of neutral thus countering the clinical, somewhat cool Technics sound.
I agree with your views about SME (magnesium) arms on an SL-1200/1210, although trust me, a 3009 or M2-9R (with the right cartridge) is a rather different prospect - bland they are not! ;)
It's not so much that the SPU is 'colourful' (although I understand what you mean), but rather that, unlike some other cartridges made today, it doesn't strip music of its natural warmth and texture, by being designed to appeal to the spec sheet more than the ears.
Ditto with the Ortofon arm, which is simply a natural carrier for an SPU, thus the two work symbiotically and combine to produce wonderfully rich and realistic sounding music - the complete opposite of cool and clinical, and the Techy simply acts as a neutral platform from which to showcase their abilities.
*That* is true synergy at work, and why I've managed to obtain such a musically rewarding sound from my T/T :)
I also agree with your view on the tendency of the Technics to sound 'cool and clinical' - and there are valid reasons for that - therefore one should seek to ameliorate that effect with one's choice of arm and cartridge. After all, if you've got an amplifier that exhibits 'cool and clinical' tendencies, the last thing you'd do is buy a pair of speakers with the same sonic signature....
So why would you not apply the same principle to a turntable? At the end of the day, it's all about creating synergy, and IMO those who've bought a Technics T/T, modified it, and not managed to get the sound that they were looking for, most likely didn't get the arm/cartridge combination right.
Marco.
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