Hiss, pops etc bugging the sh@t out of me

[Lopseychops]

Good evening all,

Proper novice question I'm sure about hiss, pops, static etc.

Set up - Technics 1210k2, Marantz pm6004 (utilising the preamp), AT440mla, Dali Zensor 1's.

I have my gear set up on a purpose-built hifi rack, have made sure my turntable is level utilising small levels, VTF at correct level using a digital gauge, made sure all vinyl is clean by way of a Spin Clean, stylus cleaned with brush and magic eraser and cartridge aligned with the Technics overhang gauge.

But some major pops and general noise even with brand new vinyl.

I'm pretty sure its a set up problem but can't pinpoint this myself.

Any help, suggestion appreciated.

[walpurgis]

I'm assuming the cartridge stylus is in good condition. So check VTA and azimuth. You could try a little more downforce and see if that helps.

[Audio Al]

Hi

Clicks and pops are normally either damage or particles in the groves , Not sure what a magic erasers is ?

[Lopseychops]

I'm assuming the cartridge stylus is in good condition. So check VTA and azimuth. You could try a little more downforce and see if that helps.

It is second hand but the previous user says that it has been used for 50 hours max.

Will more down force as you suggest.

Thanks.

[Lopseychops]

Hi

Clicks and pops are normally either damage or particles in the groves , Not sure what a magic erasers is ?

Its essentially a cleaning product, like a sponge. Its all the rage in the States. Dip the stylus onto it a couple of times and it supposedly does the job without damaging anything!

[Box13]

Its essentially a cleaning product, like a sponge. Its all the rage in the States. Dip the stylus onto it a couple of times and it supposedly does the job without damaging anything!

Hiss and pops are part of the analogue experience, enjoy them rather than objecting to them.
Or; record them onto cassette where they are far less noticeable.

[Macca]

Get a proper record cleaning machine. Even new vinyl needs a proper clean.

[lurcher]

A phono stage with a poor overload margin and slow recovery can make such things far more noticeable.

[Lopseychops]

A phono stage with a poor overload margin and slow recovery can make such things far more noticeable.

Thanks Nick.

Bearing in mind that the Marantz built in phono is supposedly more than adequate, should I be looking at an external phono stage? I did toy with the idea of getting one with my initial set up, but wanted to see how the internal faired first.

[struth]

May be the vinyl. the cleaner your using may not be doing a good job/ some are worse than none tbh. have you got any records that youve not cleaned with it? if so try them and see if its the same. if so then its likely that the set up or the stylus is at fault. you can get the occasional click and pop but you shouldnt get too many.

[walpurgis]

Thanks Nick.

Bearing in mind that the Marantz built in phono is supposedly more than adequate, should I be looking at an external phono stage? I did toy with the idea of getting one with my initial set up, but wanted to see how the internal faired first.

Not necessarily. Marantz usually provide pretty reasonable phono stages. My feeling is that if it isn't a cartridge setup issue, it's possibly the combination of components you have which may lean towards the explicit side of things.

[Andrei]

When you use the Spin Clean bear in mind that the recommended 5 rotations are simply not enough. I do 20 - 25 and get good results. Also change the water with twice the recommended frequency.

[awkwardbydesign]

Not necessarily. Marantz usually provide pretty reasonable phono stages. My feeling is that if it isn't a cartridge setup issue, it's possibly the combination of components you have which may lean towards the explicit side of things.
This. I have had combinations that did this, and if you are new to LPs, you may be more sensitive to the clicks and pops than older users. Among other things, I have found valve amplification to help. Obviously a generalisation.
Try to reduce static. And get an RCM if you are serious about vinyl replay, but they ARE expensive, unfortunately.

[lurcher]

Any way you could make a recording to computer what you are hearing. That may allow us to form an idea of how bad or not the problem is.

BTW, I agree Marantz did make good phono stages, but I was just pointing out that some phono stages are better than others at ignoring pops and ticks.

[daytona600]

try the Double Bath method with your spin clean use a pair of them
one pre wash & one rinse with distilled water , spin clean fluid is very good but better fluids on the market eg. the disc doctor
miracle cleaner or buy a vacuum Rcm for £ 200 or use the spin clean as a pre wash & then vacuum dry

also after cleaning place records in new anti-static inner sleeves

[Lopseychops]

Thank you everyone for your valued advice and opinions.

I will at some stage purchase an RCM but the Spin Clean will have to suffice for now. Perhaps a rinse after with distilled water in a spray gun would help matters? I'm not too precious about getting the labels wet. I just want good sound. I'm a perfectionist in pretty much everything I do, so I'm finding my virgin voyage into records and vinyl quite frustrating!

Would anyone in the Plymouth/West Devon area care to pop round and take a look at my set up etc, as I suspect that this may be the problem? I'm a total novice to all of this so to have someone cast an experienced eye and have a fettle to get things right would be sincerely appreciated. Plus I have plenty of bottles of Doom Bar by way of recompense!

[Audio Al]

Thank you everyone for your valued advice and opinions.

I will at some stage purchase an RCM but the Spin Clean will have to suffice for now. Perhaps a rinse after with distilled water in a spray gun would help matters? I'm not too precious about getting the labels wet. I just want good sound. I'm a perfectionist in pretty much everything I do, so I'm finding my virgin voyage into records and vinyl quite frustrating!




Would anyone in the Plymouth/West Devon area care to pop round and take a look at my set up etc, as I suspect that this may be the problem? I'm a total novice to all of this so to have someone cast an experienced eye and have a fettle to get things right would be sincerely appreciated. Plus I have plenty of bottles of Doom Bar by way of recompense!


Are you giving the fluid enough time 2 soften the crud in the record grooves , it may have had 25 years 2 harden
Its a bit like Weetabix on a breakfast bowl , try getting it off as soon as you put in in water , impossible :eek:
Leave it 2 soak for 5 mins and it comes off easy

Give it a try

[Lopseychops]

Are you giving the fluid enough time 2 soften the crud in the record grooves , it may have had 25 years 2 harden
Its a bit like Weetabix on a breakfast bowl , try getting it off as soon as you put in in water , impossible :eek:
Leave it 2 soak for 5 mins and it comes off easy

Give it a try

Thanks for the info. Most of my vinyl (all 12 records!) is brand new - 180g reissues etc. Even with those I'm still getting quite a bit of noise which leads me to believe that its a set up issue.

[DSJR]

The AT440MLa is a good cartridge for the likes of me, but the fine-line tip and peaky response won't favour surface imperfections in records. You'll never completely clear it, but the very best cartridges seem to replace the spit/crack/roar style of vinyl reproduction with a gentle 'presence' in the background that goes unnoticed most of the time.

I'd probably suggest looking at a Denon DL110 as a replacement to be honest. The sound has some balls to it, is nicely balanced and for good in this case, is 'voiced' to be as safe as houses. The diamond is nicely formed and polished too, so won't be upset by nasty vinyl.

[awkwardbydesign]

Thank you everyone for your valued advice and opinions.

I will at some stage purchase an RCM but the Spin Clean will have to suffice for now. Perhaps a rinse after with distilled water in a spray gun would help matters? I'm not too precious about getting the labels wet. I just want good sound. I'm a perfectionist in pretty much everything I do, so I'm finding my virgin voyage into records and vinyl quite frustrating!

Would anyone in the Plymouth/West Devon area care to pop round and take a look at my set up etc, as I suspect that this may be the problem? I'm a total novice to all of this so to have someone cast an experienced eye and have a fettle to get things right would be sincerely appreciated. Plus I have plenty of bottles of Doom Bar by way of recompense!
Wooh! When are you in? Shall I put my coat on now?

[Lopseychops]

Wooh! When are you in? Shall I put my coat on now?

Haha!! Thanks Richard. Come on over anytime. PM me for details. I'll stick a couple in the fridge.

[Haselsh1]

I started seriously listening to my own vinyl in 1979 having left the families vinyl behind and moved on to my own hi-fi system and when CD came along in 1983 I shifted most of my vinyl to make way for digital. Fortunately for me I kept the most precious and have since been rebuilding a really nice vinyl collection consisting mainly of brand new stuff. I have found that you simply have to make allowances for old technology. There is no way that vinyl is going to mimic CD because it is simply not CD so you need to retrain your ears and mind to accommodate this noise. You can tailor your system to be perfect for vinyl replay so that surface noise is reduced but at the end of it all, it is still seriously old technology and that my friend, you have to live with, or live without. Yes, sometimes it really pisses me off and I just can't stand the aggro so I switch it all off and get drunk but as with all things so very OCD, you will always come back because you are hooked.

[Lopseychops]

I started seriously listening to my own vinyl in 1979 having left the families vinyl behind and moved on to my own hi-fi system and when CD came along in 1983 I shifted most of my vinyl to make way for digital. Fortunately for me I kept the most precious and have since been rebuilding a really nice vinyl collection consisting mainly of brand new stuff. I have found that you simply have to make allowances for old technology. There is no way that vinyl is going to mimic CD because it is simply not CD so you need to retrain your ears and mind to accommodate this noise. You can tailor your system to be perfect for vinyl replay so that surface noise is reduced but at the end of it all, it is still seriously old technology and that my friend, you have to live with, or live without. Yes, sometimes it really pisses me off and I just can't stand the aggro so I switch it all off and get drunk but as with all things so very OCD, you will always come back because you are hooked.

And I accept all of that Shaun. I know it will never be 100% clear of surface noise but to my untrained vinyl-ear it seems a little excessive. But I'm hooked, definitely. Theres a distinct difference between the CD sound and the vinyl.

Endless options to fettle and experiment. Endless ways to empty the bank account!

[Haselsh1]

And I accept all of that Shaun. I know it will never be 100% clear of surface noise but to my untrained vinyl-ear it seems a little excessive. But I'm hooked, definitely. Theres a distinct difference between the CD sound and the vinyl.

Endless options to fettle and experiment. Endless ways to empty the bank account!

One of the things that massively improved my vinyl system was the purchase of a Glen Croft Micro 25 Basic preamplifier with built in valve phono stage. I upgraded the valves to Gold Lion gold pinned types and the sound went through the roof. My last huge upgrade was the fitting of a new maple hardwood plinth for the turntable. This considerably reduced the surface noise even though I have no idea how it could possibly have done so. I am fortunate in that I have a missus that adores music and hi-fi and the difference was audible even to her (cloth) ears.

[Lopseychops]

One of the things that massively improved my vinyl system was the purchase of a Glen Croft Micro 25 Basic preamplifier with built in valve phono stage. I upgraded the valves to Gold Lion gold pinned types and the sound went through the roof. My last huge upgrade was the fitting of a new maple hardwood plinth for the turntable. This considerably reduced the surface noise even though I have no idea how it could possibly have done so. I am fortunate in that I have a missus that adores music and hi-fi and the difference was audible even to her (cloth) ears.

As I said in a previous post, I have forgone a ext phono stage so as to get used to the Marantz preamp and the sound that it produces. Maybe its something that I will look at in time. Choosing a phono stage - another bloody veritable minefield!!

[Haselsh1]

As I said in a previous post, I have forgone a ext phono stage so as to get used to the Marantz preamp and the sound that it produces. Maybe its something that I will look at in time. Choosing a phono stage - another bloody veritable minefield!!

LOL, you bloody love it, you know you do ;)

[walpurgis]

There are cartridges that are quieter on surface noise. The Denon DL-160 is very good and so is the ZYX R50 Bloom. Noise is kept well in check with these. They also sound rather nice too. DL-160 only available second hand now.

[Lopseychops]

LOL, you bloody love it, you know you do ;)

Therein lies the rub! I do love it. I work away from home quite a lot so I am endlessly reading up on kit, equipment, methods etc on loads of forums.

[Haselsh1]

There is something not quite right with vinyl junkies but if you include hi-fi into that as well then things just get weird. I reckon that there is a distinct personality disorder with most vinyl/hi-fi junkies that is very OCD.

[struth]

knickers... my personity is just fine! its everyone else that is wierd:eyebrows:

[Box13]

There is something not quite right with vinyl junkies but if you include hi-fi into that as well then things just get weird. I reckon that there is a distinct personality disorder with most vinyl/hi-fi junkies that is very OCD.

This seems very reasonable !!!

[Lopseychops]

A big thanks to Dick AKA awkwardbydesign for coming over this morning to have a look at my set up. It appears that I have rather a 'bright' system, not helped by my Dali speakers and AT440mla cartridge. Some sound advice and recommendations from Dick which has given me food for thought.

Thanks all for your input over the last few days. A great forum :)

[walpurgis]

I suspected that might be the case.

[awkwardbydesign]

And thanks in return for the beer and wine. Which I am enjoying as I speak. :cool:

[petrat]

I have the AT 440MLb and can confirm that it is much more prone to emphasising surface noise than other cartridges I have tried.

[AlfaGTV]

First sign of a worn cart is emphasis on the unwanted properties of vinyl replay... I'd say, get your tip checked by a dealer/friend with a microscope!
Errr.. I mean, the cartridge tip of course! ;)
Though i dont do Audio Technica i still have gotten the impression that they are NOT the most quiet regarding vinyl noises?
All the best Mike

[Lopseychops]

Hi Mike,

awkwardbydesign very kindly did that when he came around to look at my setup. In fact it was the first thing he did. As far as I can remember my tip was given the all clear :eyebrows:

[awkwardbydesign]

I only used a 30x pocket scope. I have 300x USB scope at home, but that is less pocket friendly. The light reflections along the edge of the tip were straight, which suggests no major wear.
When Mark is ready we can do some substituting of components and hear what effect that has.

[petrat]

I have the AT 440MLb and can confirm that it is much more prone to emphasising surface noise than other cartridges I have tried.

This is brand new, so not wear. I think it has a particularly small stylus and may be riding low down in the groove, although I could be wrong. Apart from the surface noise, it is an excellent cartridge, with nice detail and dynamics.

[albertan]

I, too, used a Spin Clean to clean my records, and found that while the dynamic range improved, the surface noise became unbearable. I then purchased a record cleaning machine (rcm). Now that I have a proper record cleaner I find the Spin Clean indispensable. It really knocks the bark off records. I use the Spin Clean to pre-clean all of my records.This is my experience. YMMV.

I use only distilled or de-mineralized water. I have found that the cloths and brushes wake up when washed in hot water, with a cold rinse, with just a touch of soap added and a capful of liquid bleach added. The bleach seems to get the grunge off the cloths and brushes.

I use an eye dropper to administer the Spin Clean fluid over the entire brush. I use the same amount, but just evenly distributed. The lead in grooves are now brought into contact with the Spin Clean fluid. This works.

I go at least 20 rotations in each direction rather than the 3 rotations as suggested by Spin Clean. 10 left, 10 right, 10 left, and 10 right. You will find that the water becomes filthy very quickly so i only clean about a dozen records before I toss the fluid. I dry the record then I rinse the record on my rcm sometimes twice before I use the Keith Monks fluids. I would suggest you get another pair of Spin Clean brushes to rinse your records with de-mineralized water. Listening to Floyd Walker got me onto rinsing after all cleaning. He simply stated that you would not feel your hair was clean if you did not rinse out the shampoo. Why should your records be any different? He is too smart to argue with. Rinsing works.

Lastly: Put your clean records in proper record sleeves and not back into the old paper ones. The vast majority of the gunk on your records comes from the paper sleeves meant to protect them. I use Mobile Fidelity sleeves an all my records.

[daytona600]

SPIN CLEAN DOUBLE BATH METHOD

2 x Spin Clean used a PRE-WASH with Cleaning Fluid + RINSE with Distilled Water

To achieve the best clean possible from these machines 2 are needed. ( Double Bath Method )

1 machine to Clean the records and another machine to Rinse them.

The first machine is filled with LP cleaning fluid ( Supplied ) and a 2nd machine filled with 1 Litre Distilled Water ( Supplied ) .

Clean your LP as you nomally would using the instructions supplied in the standard Spin Clean kit, then transfer the record
and rinse the LP in the 2nd kit and remove the clamp and leave to dry in the supplied drying rack.

A superb budget solution for cleaning and keeping your precious vinyl in tip top condition.

It took me a little while to find the best way to do it, but once I was going it turned out to work very well indeed. You simply put the wheel on the record and then first put it in the bath with the real spin clean , rotate it a few times, and then let it drain a bit and put it in the water bath.

Rotate it in the second bath for a few times too, and you're finished. The record can now be put in the draining rack as normal. The cleaning solution can be filtered and re-used, but the de-ionised water should be disposed of after a single session, obviously, as the whole point of this rinsing is to use clean water so that the record will dry up without any dirt or residue.

The two-bath method is a total success, as far as I'm concerned. I've already treated more than a hundred records with it, and the rest of my collection will most certainly follow. I don't know how this system compares with real record cleaning machines, but I cannot really imagine any system doing a much better job than this.

It is very, very affordable, easy to use, safe and very effective. Records come out completely clean and without attracting any static electricity. If you take playing vinyl serious you really need a good record cleaning machine, and this method must be the best value on the market. Highly recommended.

[albertan]

All cartridges have a recommended tracking force from the manufacturer. If ticks and pops are a problem try nudging the tracking force up a bit. It won't wear out your records and it will plough through the grunge.

[struth]

Better to remove the muck. it can set like concrete

[paskinn]

As this thread makes clear, you can go on for ever with 'solutions', but in the end vinyl is noisier. No amount of cleaning/different kit/ different speakers, will change the truth of that. You either accept the 'downside' of vinyl or you don't. Many don't, a few do.
If you stick with vinyl, you will find that everything needs attention...some decks are noisier than others, some cartridges are peaky. Many box speakers have a peaky treble. Even worse, temperature and humidity can make quite a difference. Music with a big dynamic range will be more problematic. And so on, and on......
You will have to 'desensitise' yourself to the noise, or you will just listen for problems not music. Many people can't be bothered (why should they?) and turn to streaming.
Me? I just accept the flaws of analogue and don't worry. It's not a 'test' you have to pass, simply a matter of personal choice.

[Macca]

I use a Moth to clean my records and whilst there is an occasional click it is down to a scratch not dirt. I have bought very soiled recirds for pennies that now play perfectly. Albums I bought new years ago likewise. Some had become unplayable over the years, not becsude they had been badly treated but simply thirty years of crud accumulated in normal use. Plus don't kid yourself that the vinul is clean even when new. Pressing plants are not laboratories. If you want vinyl to be anything other than a novelty thing, you need a proper cleaning machine.

[struth]

I use a Moth to clean my records and whilst there is an occasional click it is down to a scratch not dirt. I have bought very soiled recirds for pennies that now play perfectly. Albums I bought new years ago likewise. Some had become unplayable over the years, not becsude they had been badly treated but simply thirty years of crud accumulated in normal use. Plus don't kid yourself that the vinul is clean even when new. Pressing plants are not laboratories. If you want vinyl to be anything other than a novelty thing, you need a proper cleaning machine.

+1.... No reason to have noisy records in general. Mine are mostly as near as damn it as quiet as a cd tbh, but with more dynamics. I use a Moth as well.

[fordy]

I note the the OP is using a Techy. ISTR this should have a ground lead connected on the bottom of the deck to the phono amp or preamp. At least my SP10 was like that anyway. It does significantly reduce ticks and pops from static build up on your records. Does the tonearm lead have an additional ground?