next upgrade

[MarginWalker]

Hi all,

I have come to the stage where i want to make an upgrade to my system but am unsure which element will give the biggest overall improvement when upgraded.

My set up is as follows - it is pretty basic compared to some on here, but i like it...

Thorens TD160 MK1 (stock other than replacement baseboard)
Ortofon OM10 cartridge
Pro-ject phono box (one of the earlier incarnations i believe) - it can switch between MM and MC
Amptastic Mini 1
Creek OBH 21SE headphone amp
Grado SR60i headphones
Wharfedale Diamond 9.0

Any advice on which areas to concentrate on would be gratefully received.

Thanks,
Phil

[MikeMusic]

Mains

Unswitched sockets for each box
Get a sparky to do it if you are remotely doubtful.
Have him check your earth at the same time

Depending on your current (!) situation it will make a surprising or staggering difference.

[Reffc]

I'd suggest the OM10 can be improved readily as could the Amptastic Mini 1. The next upgrade for me (good as the little wharfedales are) could be the speakers, depending on your room and layout of course. Trading up to a more capable cart to fully exploit the (capable if budget) phonostage will make a bigger difference imho than wasting a shed load on fancy mains upgrading for something that draws very little current from it. Unless you know that you have internal mains wiring problems then why bother? Decently and competently made power supplies should already include for filtering of RFI etc.

[struth]

i would make a thick baseboard for the tt...wont cost much and does improve things. also the cart could easily be bettered for reasonable money as well.

[walpurgis]

Make sure all cables are at least half decent. They make a big difference.

[Joe]

It's looking like you need to change everything! I'd say speakers first, meself.

[MarginWalker]

Blimey, looks like I might need to get saving! I have already upgraded the baseboard on the Thorens, so it seems the general consensus is to upgrade the speakers. Any recommendations for around the £100 mark? I'm happy to go second hand, but I will need to limit the choices to stand mounts

[awkwardbydesign]

so it seems the general consensus is to upgrade the speakers. Any recommendations for around the £100 mark?
Time for someone to convince him he needs Tannoys. Or Ditton 44s.

[snorbans]

Stand mount for £100? B w DM12 or 2 or 5 amazing bang for buck though diamonds aren't bad, are you sure you can't add the sale price of the diamonds to the £100?

[snorbans]

£100 and you will be lucky to get ditton44's but quite possible with a little more spend, not the smallest standmounter but great full sound that would make most else at that point sound anaemic

[aniki]

Well I'm going to go against the grain a tad and say speakers last, cartridge first...

[MarginWalker]

I guess I could add a bit more, particularly if they were speakers that I wouldn't need to upgrade again. I don't imagine I would get that much for the wharedales though?

[MarginWalker]

Well I'm going to go against the grain a tad and say speakers last, cartridge first...

Ok. Any particular reason? If I were to replace the cartridge my budget would be around £100 again. Recommendations?

[aniki]

Ok. Any particular reason? If I were to replace the cartridge my budget would be around £100 again. Recommendations?
Well any system is limited by its weakest link but IME I have always found upgrades to source to be most noticeable. It's a little over budget but I suggest the Audio Technica AT440mla would yield absolutely astonishing gains without changing anything else.
It will also still stand its ground should you upgrade amp and speakers at a later date.

[walpurgis]

Well any system is limited by its weakest link

That's why I suggested cables. If they are lacking, everything else will just not sound as it could.

[walpurgis]

If you want to go cartridge first. You could do worse than this. It's a vintage item, but looks in good condition and they do sound nice.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dynavector-10X2-High-Output-MC-Tonabnehmersystem-/271899848374?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item3f4e7e6eb6

It will work in the Thorens arm OK and being a high output MC will suit MM inputs.

[Box13]

I would start at the beginning and replace the Thorens with a rega turntable.
The Ortofon sounds brilliant in a rega arm.
There's plenty of headroom to the Wharfedales and they will certainly improve with a rega turntable.

[walpurgis]

Hmm. Having used Rega and Thorens turntables many times, I'd have a TD160 myself. It's a good reliable unit and the arm suits medium/low compliance cartridges well enough.

[aniki]

Hmm. Having used Rega and Thorens turntables many times, I'd have a TD160 myself
+1

[struth]

wouldnt swap my td160 for any rega deck tbh

[Barry]

+2 to keeping the Thorens TD160 - a fine deck, and much superior to the Rega.

Weakest link? Well everything is a weakest link, but the Amptastic mini T might be suspect: it can work very well into some speakers (such as the Bowers & Wilkins DM2As), but not all speakers.

Were it me, I would replace the cartridge first, then the amp, before worrying about the speakers, which are fine.

[MarginWalker]

I actually replaced a rega wit the Thorens. I much prefer the Thorens personally so it will be staying. I have a NAD c320bee upstairs that I was thinking of moving on. I guess I could use that instead of the amptastic, or sell both of them and use the money for something better?

The cables are, I think, fine so there isn't a particularly weak link there.

I had thought that the consensus would be to upgrade the phono stage first, so that shows what I know! I will keep my eyes open for a good deal on some Dittoms or B&Ws and will have a think about a new cartridge too. Thanks all!

[Firebottle]

Personally I would upgrade the cartridge first with a bargain Acutex, see these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUNTINA-ACUTEX-410-E-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-TURNTABLE-NUOVA-/261957177487?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101&hash=item3cfddd508f

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUNTINA-ACUTEX-412-STR-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-TURNTABLE-NUOVA-/252015374372?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101&hash=item3aad497024

For the money they are a no brainer. I have the 312 and bought a 412 earlier this year. I have no desire to upgrade further :)

Cheers, Alan

[Box13]

If you find the Thorens preferable to the rega, you obviously prefer a smoother sound at the expense of some dynamics.
Your logical cartridge exchange should therefore be to a Ortofon 2M Red. Don't feel tempted to go for the 2M Blue as the sound will get more dynamic and bright again.
If you like a smooth rich and mellow sound then Celestion speakers are definitely ones you would enjoy, you should seek out some second hand Ditton 15's they would be just the sort of presentation you are looking for.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-1960s-Ditton-15-Speakers-Celestion-x-2-Made-in-England-/201382034802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2ee34dfd72

[MarginWalker]

Personally I would upgrade the cartridge first with a bargain Acutex, see these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUNTINA-ACUTEX-410-E-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-TURNTABLE-NUOVA-/261957177487?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101&hash=item3cfddd508f

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUNTINA-ACUTEX-412-STR-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-TURNTABLE-NUOVA-/252015374372?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101&hash=item3aad497024

For the money they are a no brainer. I have the 312 and bought a 412 earlier this year. I have no desire to upgrade further :)

Cheers, Alan

Thanks for the recommendation, Alan. Are these carts a good match for the tp16 tonearm?

[MarginWalker]

If you find the Thorens preferable to the rega, you obviously prefer a smoother sound at the expense of some dynamics.
Your logical cartridge exchange should therefore be to a Ortofon 2M Red. Don't feel tempted to go for the 2M Blue as the sound will get more dynamic and bright again.
If you like a smooth rich and mellow sound then Celestion speakers are definitely ones you would enjoy, you should seek out some second hand Ditton 15's they would be just the sort of presentation you are looking for.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-1960s-Ditton-15-Speakers-Celestion-x-2-Made-in-England-/201382034802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2ee34dfd72

I definitely prefer the sound of the Thorens. As good as the Rega (RP3) was, once i got the Thorens up and running I noticed how much more laid back and warm it sounded which left the Rega sounding a bit clinical for my tastes. I couldn't justify keeping both so the Rega had to go.

I will keep my eyes open for some Ditton 15s local to me.

Thanks again for all the advice!

Phil

[walpurgis]

The Mordaunt Short Pageant 2 is superior to the Ditton 15 at around the same money (£50 to £80, don't pay more).

[MarginWalker]

The Mordaunt Short Pageant 2 is superior to the Ditton 15 at around the same money (£50 to £80, don't pay more).

Thanks for the recommendation - what is the sensitivity like on these speakers? I will need something relatively easy to drive.

Thanks
Phil

[walpurgis]

The Pageant 2s are happy on any amp I've used. I don't have figures handy for sensitivity, but it seems reasonable. My guess is about 88/89db.

[MarginWalker]

thanks - they sound like they might be a really good, and affordable, upgrade.

[rdpx]

The Shure M75 for £20 in the for sale threads would likely be a great match for your arm/tt.
Selling both amps should give you plenty of scope for a really nice used bargain if you keep your eyes open on here, or eBay. I use a Rega Brio 3 which although I am itching to upgrade is annoyingly good, and can be picked up pretty cheaply.

[MarginWalker]

Thanks for the info. Is the cart easy to fit? I haven't done much installing of cartridges, which is part of the reason I still have the ortofon.

If I were to sell the two amps could anyone give me an idea of what I might be able to get for them?

Ta

[rdpx]

Thanks for the info. Is the cart easy to fit? I haven't done much installing of cartridges, which is part of the reason I still have the ortofon.

If I were to sell the two amps could anyone give me an idea of what I might be able to get for them?

Ta

I think it's fairly possible that these TTs originally were often sold with a Shure M75 fitted, and you might find that the £20 in the classifieds here is a good call. I know I have one on my TD150 that I have struggled to better so have decided to just stick with it but am putting in an expensive (£100) stylus into it... I can't imagine it is very hard to fit a new cart you should get help if you ask on here (or use google?)

Saying all that, there is probably nothing at all wrong with the OM10... and when the stylus wears out you can upgrade that to an OM20...

I have no idea how good the NAD is, but if I were you I would probably sell the two amps and the speakers (you might get £170 for the lot?) and put an ad in the classifieds page saying you are after a great amp and speakers for around the £300 mark.... you might turn up something nice. Actually thats not true, if it were me I would decide my budget was £270 for the lot, then end up spending about £500 on a pair of speakers.

:cool:

If you are in a hurry then you could probably do worse than just selling the speakers and the amptastic and getting a pair of Tannoy Revolution DC6SE from Richer Sounds for £200 and running them on the NAD for a bit. We used to have the much smaller DC4s and they were very good indeed for the size/price.

I think if you upgrade those speakers you will be happy with the improvement for at least a couple of weeks.

;)R

[Box13]

I definitely prefer the sound of the Thorens. As good as the Rega (RP3) was, once i got the Thorens up and running I noticed how much more laid back and warm it sounded which left the Rega sounding a bit clinical for my tastes. I couldn't justify keeping both so the Rega had to go.

I will keep my eyes open for some Ditton 15s local to me.

Thanks again for all the advice!

Phil

The difference you describe is correct, I go for dynamics as I listen to a lot of rock music. The Thorens to my ears is a classical music lovers deck. The Ortofon 2M red would take your system in the direction you wish.

[Box13]

The Mordaunt Short Pageant 2 is superior to the Ditton 15 at around the same money (£50 to £80, don't pay more).

They are not as smooth though and Walker obviously likes a smooth fluid sound.

[Box13]

The Shure M75 for £20 in the for sale threads would likely be a great match for your arm/tt.
Selling both amps should give you plenty of scope for a really nice used bargain if you keep your eyes open on here, or eBay. I use a Rega Brio 3 which although I am itching to upgrade is annoyingly good, and can be picked up pretty cheaply.

The Shure would be 'brighter' than Walker wants, the Ortofon would be a better choice for him.

[rdpx]

The Shure would be 'brighter' than Walker wants, the Ortofon would be a better choice for him.

I don't think it is so clear cut, but it's a distraction anyway as there are clearly far better upgrade routes than through the cartridge here.

You seem very sure about the sound wanted though, which seems to be based only on his preference for the Thorens over a cheap Rega?

[aniki]

I go for dynamics as I listen to a lot of rock music. The Thorens to my ears is a classical music lovers deck.

Despite 'Classical Music' probably being one of the most 'dynamic' forms of music known to man.... :rolleyes:

[Stratmangler]

I have a NAD c320bee upstairs that I was thinking of moving on. I guess I could use that instead of the amptastic, or sell both of them and use the money for something better?

There's nowt wrong with a NAD C320BEE.
I get the opportunity to hear plenty of very high quality amplifiers, and the C320BEE doesn't disgrace itself in some fairly exalted company.
It might not have quite the same degree of resolution, or be quite as transparent as some, but it's a good amp nonetheless.

[MarginWalker]

Thanks for all the advice. I think I will sell the NADand put the money towards some better speakers. I will try these out with the amptastic and if I don't like the results I will think about moving on the amp and the creek headphone amp and investing in another amp.

In terms of sound, while I do like the smooth sound I would be reluctant to combine all smooth sounding elements as I want to keep some sort of balance to the overall sound.

Phil

[petrat]

Well any system is limited by its weakest link but IME I have always found upgrades to source to be most noticeable. It's a little over budget but I suggest the Audio Technica AT440mla would yield absolutely astonishing gains without changing anything else.
It will also still stand its ground should you upgrade amp and speakers at a later date.

This.

[MarginWalker]

More conflicting advice! I should have known better than to expect a consensus! I am still planning to sell the NAD and look out for some new speakers, but I think I will also put an ad on private exhibitions to see who has a suitable cartridge for sale for under £40, that way I can at least see what sort of difference an alternative cart can make.

P

[Box13]

I don't think it is so clear cut, but it's a distraction anyway as there are clearly far better upgrade routes than through the cartridge here.

You seem very sure about the sound wanted though, which seems to be based only on his preference for the Thorens over a cheap Rega?

Exactly.

[Box13]

Despite 'Classical Music' probably being one of the most 'dynamic' forms of music known to man.... :rolleyes:

That depends upon your choice surely.
e.g. A harp being played versus Carl Palmer's drums.
What rega does is 'Rock'!

[Box13]

There's nowt wrong with a NAD C320BEE.
I get the opportunity to hear plenty of very high quality amplifiers, and the C320BEE doesn't disgrace itself in some fairly exalted company.
It might not have quite the same degree of resolution, or be quite as transparent as some, but it's a good amp nonetheless.

The Nad is 'exactly' the presentation you are looking for and would be a 'zero cost' upgrade!!

[Box13]

Thanks for all the advice. I think I will sell the NADand put the money towards some better speakers. I will try these out with the amptastic and if I don't like the results I will think about moving on the amp and the creek headphone amp and investing in another amp.

In terms of sound, while I do like the smooth sound I would be reluctant to combine all smooth sounding elements as I want to keep some sort of balance to the overall sound.

Phil

You would regret selling the NAD!
Let the amptastic and cartridge go and buy an Ortofon 2M Red.

[Box13]

[Quote] Well any system is limited by its weakest link but IME I have always found upgrades to source to be most noticeable. [Quote]

This is true, but he likes the Thorens.

[Gordon Steadman]

Despite 'Classical Music' probably being one of the most 'dynamic' forms of music known to man.... :rolleyes:

100% correct.

[MarginWalker]

I will certainly do an A/B test before I decide which amp to move on.

From what I understand the ortofon2M red is a nightmare to fit on the TP16, no?

[walpurgis]

From what I understand the ortofon2M red is a nightmare to fit on the TP16, no?

Probably.

Get something else. Grados always sound rather attractive (even the cheap ones) and they are a doddle to fit.

[rdpx]

You would regret selling the NAD!
Let the amptastic and cartridge go and buy an Ortofon 2M Red.

I have posted a couple of amps recently, and can assure you that the ease with which you could package up and post the Amptastic should not be overlooked when you decide which one to move on.

And yes for the ORT 2Ms you need the "verso" versions, or start messing around with drilling out holes.



I will certainly do an A/B test before I decide which amp to move on.


Note 4 stars tested at £700. At £200 these are a stone cold bargain.

TANNOY REVOLUTION DC6SE (http://www.whathifi.com/tannoy/dc6-se/review)

[MarginWalker]

So, after maonths of listening and deliberating i have decided to upgrade my cartridge. Top of the list is currently a Nagaoka MP-110, it seems to have the characteristics i am looking for and seems a very good match for the TP-16 arm. Anyone had any experience with this cartridge/arm combination?

Phil