Firebottle KIN line/phono preamp

[Firebottle]

At the risk of being accused of blowing my own trumpet I just have to share the experience.

:eek: Cliché alert :eek: The sound coming from this latest creation is like the crystal clear water of a mountain stream, or possibly lifting a veil on what was previously considered good performance:

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000iUbIIRkgKBg/fit=1000x750/Courtisan-De-La-Nuit.jpg


I'm sat here having coffee and breakfast with the vinyl playing quite softly, not really concentrating on the music, but it just keeps imprinting in my conciousness.

It's so alive, so tangible, so clear it's a revelation. I can't quite believe I have effected such a step change with my new circuit, ii'll be in need of a tin hat :eyebrows:

I'm going to demo it to a few of the local AoS members to see what they think, will keep you posted.

:mex:

[CageyH]

Really interested in hearing this, or feedback from those that have.
If you start producing these, what are they likely to cost?

[Firebottle]

Very remiss of me not to include more photographs so here are a couple.

KIN under going soak test:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Firebottle/P1040937.jpg?1435927574947&1435927579437


Playing more and more vinyl and hearing deeper and deeper into the music. Currently listening to 'The Cream of Eric Clapton', being a compilation album it's not the best cut vinyl but the depth to the sound stage is staggering me. The backing singers on one track are so perfectly separated from Eric, which I've never heard so well before.

Also the cartridge in use, an Acutex 412, has seemed a bit too bright before but now the treble just seems to be sweeter and more extended rather than too bright :yay:

The main reason I can think of for the big improvement must be the leap in linearity that the valves are now operating under. Same valves as used before, still passive RC equalisation (but reduced impedance), distributed voltage regulation and quality caps.
I am surmising that the distortion factors including low level intermodulation have reduced to such an extent that micro detail is now revealed and not mashed up. I don't have a distortion meter so can't confirm that.

Anyway for those that love to see the gubbins indulge yourselves:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Firebottle/P1040938.jpg?1435927574953&1435927579437&1435927603948&1435927667562

:mex:

[struth]

Nice Alan...sounds impressive and looks well layed out. just got my new valves today so will get them fitted to my fb and let you know if any improvement is found...2 brimar and a mullard going in. may think about getting a all new super kin if its an improvement. how much gain does it(pre) put out ???

[Firebottle]

It's not just an improvement Grant it's in a different league :eek:

Gain for the line stage is kept deliberately low at 5dB

The gain for the phono is more than previously achieved due to the linear valve operation but I've yet to measure it.

:)

[jandl100]

Don't you just hate it when an audio buddy comes round and brings some kit that blows away what you have :eek: ..... and then takes it away again! :doh:

Alan Firebottle and his lovely lady Shirl came a-visiting to Jerry Towers yesterday. As well as bringing me the Myst G-Ohm amp that he kindly fixed up and fettled for me (see here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?39303-Repair-of-Myst-G-Ohm-power-amplifier)) Alan also brought along his KIN pre-amp and Firebottle 2 phonostage.

We started off with my own Jasmine 'stage and all agreed that it sounded good, as it should for a well regarded £500 or so 'stage.
The Firebottle 2 phonostage was then installed ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF6400_zps3g37xswq.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSCF6400_zps3g37xswq.jpg.html)

.... whoops! Where'd all the 3D imaging come from? :scratch: Crikey, I was impressed. More detail, better rez. Smoother but better defined treble. Damn!

I don't really have a role for a pre-amp in my current system as all comes thru my remote controlled ADC/DAC, but the new Firebottle KIN has, Alan claims, an even better phonostage in it than the Firebottle 2.
So, OK, that was hooked up.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF6399_zpsoedh9sai.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSCF6399_zpsoedh9sai.jpg.html)

Blimey.
My Jasmine 'stage is good.
The Firebottle 2 'stage is a strong and distinct step up from it.
The KIN pre with its onboard phonostage takes it up to another level again.
"Tactile" is a word that Shirl mentioned and I think that is spot on.
Stunning sound.

.... and then they took it away again. :unfair:

So, if you are in the market for a great phonostage and have £750 to spill on it, the the Firebottle 2 gets a solid and enthusiastic :thumbsup:.
And if you are in the market for a £1750 remote control pre-amp with a seriously wonderful phonostage onboard, then you would be doing yourself a massive dis-favour if you ignore the KIN pre-amp.
Really fabulous kit.
Well done, Alan. :)

And just to prove it all happened here they are sitting amid the usual chaos of my system :eyebrows:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF6401_zpswmsauizi.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSCF6401_zpswmsauizi.jpg.html)

[walpurgis]

I see you've got one of those very fancy rotary sub-woofers. Or is it just a fan? :D

[jandl100]

I see you've got one of those very fancy rotary sub-woofers. Or is it just a fan? :D

A low-speed setting (hence quiet) fan carefully aimed at the Listening Chair. ;) It's been bloody hot the last week or so.
Roll on autumn!

[Gordon Steadman]

A low-speed setting (hence quiet) fan carefully aimed at the Listening Chair. ;) It's been bloody hot the last week or so.
Roll on autumn!

Make that winter. I've been trying to plaster walls in what will be our new bathroom. At the moment, it's open to the barn which is 36 degrees right now. There is a fan up there but Ronnie has it cooling down the rabbit that lives up there at the mo!!!

Nice to see someone else enjoying Alan's stuff. He really does know something.

[rubber duck]

So, if you are in the market for a great phonostage and have £750 to spill on it, the the Firebottle 2 gets a solid and enthusiastic :thumbsup:.
And if you are in the market for a £1750 remote control pre-amp with a seriously wonderful phonostage onboard, then you would be doing yourself a massive dis-favour if you ignore the KIN pre-amp.


So the FB 2 is an improvement over the FB Plus that was recently sold in the classifieds section. The FB Plus is in turn an improvement over the original FB loaner that was doing the rounds last year or so. And the KIN is a full function preamp (with a phono stage even better than the FB2) even though the (demo?) unit does not have a "phono" input on the front panel. (I am guessing there is also a line only KIN pre and the phono version will have "phono" on the input selector.) Is this right?

Btw Alan, may I suggest you ditch the DVD/TUN/AUX/CD and just use numbers (1, 2, 3, 4)? This way you avoid trying to second guess future technology changes. Just a thought.

[jandl100]

Well, I can only speak of those I have heard - I've not heard a FB or a FB Plus, just those I mentioned.

[rubber duck]

Thanks Jerry. I don't doubt you, having heard myself how good the original FB was. It was more a question of clarification for Alan as I can't follow all the changes, revisions and new models.

[Firebottle]

.. how much gain does it(pre) put out ???

I've now measured the gain:

Line stage : 6dB (x2)

Phono on MM : 40dB at 1KHz

Phono on MC : 80dB at 1KHz so that's suitable for the lowest output MC's

:) Alan

[Firebottle]

OK a little clarification.

The original loan unit that went out about 18 months ago now was the original Firebottle phono stage. Some units are MM only, some MC/MM.

12 months ago I made improvements so the stage became the Firebottle Plus, including the current loan unit.

To match the sound quality of a balanced version that I had made, the Firebottle 2 was produced earlier this year, using two enclosures and better spec components.

Very recently I have developed a new circuit that has elevated the sound quality still further, resulting in the KIN pre amp, line only or line/phono.
The unit that Jerry heard was the first Firebottle KIN line/phono preamp.

:mex:

@ rubber duck. The case is an off the shelf item so without further expense I am stuck with the nomenclature for the input selector.
When phono is included that is selected as Aux, with a rear toggle switch to select MM or MC.

[struth]

I've now measured the gain:

Line stage : 6dB (x2)

Phono on MM : 40dB at 1KHz

Phono on MC : 80dB at 1KHz so that's suitable for the lowest output MC's

:) Alan

sounds ideal i'd say. dunno if i will ever afford one but will try:)

[rubber duck]

@ rubber duck. The case is an off the shelf item so without further expense I am stuck with the nomenclature for the input selector.
When phono is included that is selected as Aux, with a rear toggle switch to select MM or MC.

Ahh that makes sense. And thanks for clarifying.

[Jimbo]

I have heard most of Alan's versions of the Firebottle phono stage as they have evolved and have been very impressed with their sound and was therefore very interested to hear Alan's next evolution of the Firebottle to a full Preamp including linestage and MC/MM phono stage.

The Firebottle 1 and 2 were good but nothing prepared me for the Firebottle KIN preamp. This preamp takes Alans phono stage into another league and is up their with the very best I have ever heard.

As Jerry mentioned earlier, and please look at his pics for photos of the KIN, this preamp moves everything on to another level. Alan mentioned removing a veil from the sound but I would say it was more like a ***KIN curtain!:)

The utter transparency and ability to resolve absolute detail was unbelievable. Instruments had a texture unlike anything I have heard and vocals were utterly sublime. The realism and direct contact to the recording made the hairs stand up on the back of your neck! The KIN simply peeled back the layers between you and the recording and left you with the musicians and all the ambience and realism of a live recording in a 3D sound stage that was utterly convincing.

This amp is truly fabulous.

[DarrenHW]

How would you compare the KIN to your Croft James?

[Jimbo]

Hi Darren,

You would have to evaluate in the context of your own system as my particular set up is pure analogue vinyl based so would not be able to comment on linestage for digital or CD set up.

But with vinyl the phono stage is up there with the best that Croft has produced.

[DSJR]

Why do they have to cost so much? A Micro 25 via a dealer network is cheaper...

[DarrenHW]

Why do they have to cost so much? A Micro 25 via a dealer network is cheaper...

Good question :popcorn:

[rubber duck]

I suspect its pitched higher up the Croft range. But then again, Croft is well established...

[jandl100]

Croft sell much more expensive preamplifiers, £2800 for the 25rs, for example.
... And you get remote control with the KIN. ;)

[struth]

I'd say it well above a croft micro.. its all hand built by the man himself using top components and you get a fantastic phono stage too so although a lot of money I'd say its about right... course ive not heard one so dont know what it'll sound like but if it betters he current range of phono stages the hey ho:)

[Jimbo]

Hi Grant,

I can tell you the KIN is quite a lot better than the FB Phono stage.

I believe the phono stage in the KIN is an advanced version of the previous FB phono.

[Firebottle]

I did say that I was aiming at giant killer performance in an earlier thread. It is a far more advanced circuit than previously used.

A Micro 25 is not in the same league ................the KIN will stand up to preamps of £6k plus, bold words but it really is that good.

:)

[DarrenHW]

...A Micro 25 is not in the same league ................the KIN will stand up to preamps of £6k plus, bold words but it really is that good.
:)

Even if you say so yourself :). Doesn't really answer the question of price though, is it that you feel as it stands up to preamps of £6k plus that it justifies the price tag and is not related to the manufacturing cost?

[hifinutt]

had the wonderful privilege of listening to this amp today . I do like the build quality . feels very solid and nice quality . volume knob is very smooth . the remote is excellent [compared to the rather poor offerings I have had before from amps costing many times at much as this one

BIG sound and yet very detailed. no fatigue even when pushed hard , even on some recordings I have found a tad harsh in some systems sometimes
my grateful thanks to alan and his lovely wife for taking the time out to come over

[rubber duck]

Even if you say so yourself :). Doesn't really answer the question of price though, is it that you feel as it stands up to preamps of £6k plus that it justifies the price tag and is not related to the manufacturing cost?

Ahh, that thorny issue of hi-fi pricing... To be fair to Alan (or any manufacturer/designer), manufacturing costs is only part of the equation. Still, there is a point to be made about how one prices an item.

[Firebottle]

I don't mind enquiring questions.

The answer is that the component cost is considerably more than that of the Firebottle Plus for example. To achieve the level of transparency to the sound requires the inclusion of first rate components in specific areas.
As has been touched on the manufacture of hand drilled/assembled/wired/soldered point to point circuit boards is always time consuming.

Then there is the possibly thorny issue of Intellectual Property (IP), as far as I am aware the exact details of my new circuit are unique in the preamplifier world.
Considerable research and in depth understanding of valve circuit design, based on many years of electronics design experience are necessary to achieve the sort of high performance being offered here. All valve circuit design is an amalgam of many compromises, as change to one condition will inevitably affect others.

Some circuits may look simple but ......:scratch:

:cool: alan

[Firebottle]

BIG sound and yet very detailed.

Many thanks to you and yours for the hospitality Phil. I did rather enjoy the sounds coming from those Martin Logan 'stats :drool:
Stunning speakers.

[hifinutt]

Many thanks to you and yours for the hospitality Phil. I did rather enjoy the sounds coming from those Martin Logan 'stats :drool:
Stunning speakers.

its a pleasure . I love them too

[Elephantears]

Alan, the KIN sounds very interesting indeed. Can you tell me what is the output impedance?

[Firebottle]

Hi Andrew, the output impedance is 20 ohms.

[Elephantears]

Wow, that is low. So I guess that means it will drive anything.

[Elephantears]

One more question, why 80dB on the MC gain? It is incredibly high. I realise that has the advantage of being compatible with all carts, even the lowest output, but it is likely to be overwhelming on the average 0.3 - 0.5mV cart. For example, I have an AT50ANV, which is 0.12mV, and 70dB is plenty.

[Firebottle]

Ahh, I have now lowered the gain, it was in all reality a bit excessive.

The byproduct of the high gain has been the removal of an electrolytic cap in the signal chain, which is of course a benefit :thumbsup:

Just listening to vinyl through the KIN with a new development on the power amp end of things, it's sounding rather (exceedingly) good. Will be getting a second opinion over the weekend ;)

[Elephantears]

I would love to hear it, having been already impressed by the your phono stage. If you are ever demoing it anywhere near London, please let me know.

[Qwin]

Just picked up on this thread.

Looks like a very interesting product in the making, looking forward to hearing it at NEBO6.

On the subject of cost, you can't compare this Pre/Phono with a Croft Micro 25 (my current Pre/Phono) as the picture earlier in the thread shows a lot more in terms of components under the hood than a Micro 25 and I mean a lot more. If you work on the basis of three times the parts = three times the work to put together then a ballpark price of x3 is not a bad starting point. The case is by far the biggest single cost and they both have one so deduct a little, rounding to about x 2.5 and the asking price would fit that area. (Croft £700). I know this is simplistic, having designed and costed hundreds of projects in my time, but these ball park finger in the air estimates can be pretty close to the mark. I would say from the pure heft of components the price would be in that region. ;)