Laminations, Magic Bricks and Shakti Stones

[PaulStewart]

I was minded to write this, as a result of the appalling “Thread Crapping” and piss taking on the wanted advert that Anthony K posted in Private Exhibitions.

In the late 1970s an engineer working for a Matsushita electronics company in Japan was changing the transformer on a prototype amplifier, by chance he placed the old transformer on top of the case and he noticed a discernable change in the sound quality. This was a repeatable effect and readings taken from the tails leading out of the now passive transformer showed that the effect was to a degree measurable. So here we have an effect that is DISERNABLE, MEASUREABLE and REPEATABLE. A paper was written on the subject, which was published and discussed at, amongst other places, meetings of the AES, hardly a forum for purveyors of foo.

Further tests were done, including some I took part in in ’78 and it appeared that the permeable core of the transformer was responsible, literally sucking up spurious fields and allowing more dynamic and phase coherent signals to get to the speakers. I should point out that this was using the devices on he mains transformers of power amps. This was not new even then, it was a rediscovery of what was common knowledge to HiFi fans in the 50s, that a block of iron near the transformer would improve the coupling of the primary and secondary and hence the dynamics. The first commercial version was I believe, the DB-5 “Magic Brick” from VPI and then the UK’s HiFi News Accessories club brought out the Flux Dumper. Both these products have been positively reviewed by non foo friendly reviewers.

The Shakti stones are just a highly permeable extension of this basic idea, I’ve heard them work and the do indeed add dynamics and clarity to the sound and I hope Anthony enjoys the result. The fact that people are willing to have an opinion on these matters, without any experience of them is, in my opinion almost as ridiculous as getting upset over Anthony’s entirely correct grammatical use of the word ignorant, when he used it in an accurate way. The only way to find it unacceptable in fact, is if one ascribes to it the the inaccurate meaning i.e. rudeness, that people tend to do these days.

[rdpx]

It must be the high iron content in the fish fingers.

[PaulStewart]

It must be the high iron content in the fish fingers.


There are three classes of joke, those that are funny once, those that are funny every time you hear them and those that never were funny in the fist place..... The above is a class 3 joke. try approaching the world with an open and enquiring mind, then engage brain before engaging mouth.

[BTH K10A]

Is that list in ascending or descending order :scratch:

[PaulStewart]

As in Class 3, not sctually funny. A closed mind is a sad thing

[Ninanina]

There are three classes of joke, those that are funny once, those that are funny every time you hear them and those that never were funny in the fist place..... The above is a class 3 joke. try approaching the world with an open and enquiring mind, then engage brain before engaging mouth.

+1

I mentioned about the "thread crapping" in my posts No. 38 and again No. 43 on that thread...

[Spectral Morn]

I for one would be interested in hearing actual reports from those who have used these and what they did and didn't do and thoughts on why they might work.




Regards Neil

[Barry]

I for one would be interested in hearing actual reports from those who have used these and what they did and didn't do and thoughts on why they might work.




Regards Neil

So would I.

[Gordon Steadman]

I tried the flux dumper and found it made not one iota of difference for me. Thus my attitude. A closed mind does not try everything going - as I have, just about although there have been some limits to my incredulity.

If there is a choice between dictionary definition and common usage, I will assume common usage every time. The word ignorance came across as insulting and I therefore reacted accordingly. I also added that if people enjoy this stuff then they are quite free to so do.

PS. On a general note, if we cut out banter, lively discussion and the odd bit of frission, a place that is supposed to be a place of discussion becomes a boring reference library and flat as a pancake. It can be taken too far as we know but surely there is room for a bit of life. Our 'beloved leader' has been known to sully the waters:eyebrows:

[Rothchild]

I'll take 'ignorance' over po-faced solemnity 99 days in a 100.

Anthony got his thread bumped, just not with tedious 'bump' or 'glwts' +1 type posts, he now has the stones and we're all looking forward to a more detailed analysis of their effect in his system (and for anyone to bring an AES approved paper outlining the cause and nature of their effect as per the transformer example).

[Macca]

If an old transformer does the same thing why not just salvage one from a knackered amp instead of buying an expensive product?

[NRG]

Paul, do you have a link to the AES paper?

The reviews of the FluxDumper seem to be highly variable and very system dependent.

I think any link between what this device may do when placed near or in an electromagnetic field and improvement in sound quality to be highly tenuous at best.

[NRG]

The FluxDumper is not that expensive at £30

[Macca]

Agree £30 not expensive. But I have old amps here I could salvage the traffo for nothing more than ten minutes work.

I don't think you can link to AES papers, don't you have to be a member of the AES to access them?

[The Black Adder]

The Shakti stones are something to be discussed with an open mind. The idea and theory has been around for a long time as Paul says.

I've read that placing a Shakti stone on top of a car's ECU can also improve performance. How much gain in performance and if that transfers over to the car in a human noticable sense is another thing.

So, let's keep an open mind, I'd for one would like to discuss these accessories with someone who has had experience from the first hand.

[The Black Adder]

If an old transformer does the same thing why not just salvage one from a knackered amp instead of buying an expensive product?

lol.. indeed, a proper AOS way of doing it. :) Pot it in a perspex box and you have something that looks acceptable.

[awkwardbydesign]

I tried the flux dumper and found it made not one iota of difference for me.
In my ignorance (dictionary definition), I wonder if you had toroidal transformers, which have a smaller external field than the laminated type.

If an old transformer does the same thing why not just salvage one from a knackered amp instead of buying an expensive product?
It might depend on the laminations; perhaps the makers of these products have optimised their layout?
And I have tried various things which didn't work for me. I have never concluded they are rubbish based on such a limited test. But I have concluded the opposite.

[Macca]

In my ignorance (dictionary definition), It might depend on the laminations; perhaps the makers of these products have optimised their layout?
.

Paul said that the effect was discovered by someone accidentally placing an old traffo on an amp case. And it was measurable. So the dedicated products might be 'optimised' but testing with an old traffo should still work to a degree.

Does the transformer have to be out of the case or can you just place one amp on top of another?

[cloth-ears]

As a scientist I can say that any information regarding the positive audio effect of Shakti Stones or any other form of transformer damping is purely speculative and anecdotal. Listening tests are not proof of any “cause and effect” as the listener will often experience the placebo effect.

Visual and auditory response are interpreted in the brain and can change with mood or outside influence. A good example would be after watching a horror movie before going to bed, normal creaks and shadows now take on a more sinister component. This is all down to the mind interpreting the visual and auditory responses to meet the heightened expectations and awareness of the individual.

I have said on many past threads that a competently built amplifier can’t see the power supply. The only real effect a power supply has on an amplifier is its output impedance. The lower the better. Spurious RF information or even minor changes in supply voltage have little or no effect. Frequency response, dynamic range and so forth are dependent on the amplifiers design. As long as the power supply is adequately built to supply the necessary voltage and current required then all is good. If you own an amplifier that is prone to hum or noise get a better one

There are many people willing to help you part with your hard earned cash for a “quick fix”. Spurious claims and or misleading research results often prompt such a purchase. Sadly in the Hi-Fi world there is little in the way of sound concrete evidence to support many claims
A good example of this is kettle leads http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/13/russ_accessories/

I have a good friend who is a consultant for a large and much respected loudspeaker manufacturer. He tells me that his company only supply speakers with bi wire option because the customer demands it. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support the claim that bi wired speakers perform any better than single wire. The same is said of speaker “burn in”. Today’s manufacturing processes are so good that any decent drive unit will remain within spec through its entire life. The advice he gives is that if you don’t like the sound it makes straight out of the box you won’t like it later.

Basically, buy something that makes a sound you like; and stick with. If someone tells you that this or that will improve what you have, ask for the evidence.

[Macca]

Bob you make some good points but I think the thread should stick to the contents of Paul's opening post rather than get derailed into kettle leads or bi-wiring and so forth.

[mad-moon]

Being a hifi enthusiast..I have done many many try outs of what could be perported to be foo.....I have a meagre inexpensive system..and my pal has a rather expensive very high end system..he fetches me all sorts of gear to try...mains cables..ic's..conditioners etc etc...( in my opionion costing telephone number prices ) My system not being expensive shows a much more discernable difference in sound quality than my pals own..his being very high end and costing many £££'s more..thus the higher the price and much greater the quality gear, is going to show much less improvement already using top quality componenets..than my less expensive system...mains cables, speaker cables, higher end ic's and a very high end costing £2,300 mains conditioner....made an immense difference in my sound quality...this is stating the obvious I know...The Shakti Stones in question, will make little or no difference to multi thousand ££'s amplifiers...I dare say..my multi hundred ££ amplifier would benefit more that the high end gear...Don't knock it..till you try it... I was a none believer till my pal turned up with bags of leads and other gear...

[struth]

There are many products with the "foo" designation and most will deserve that description for "most" people. I have some myself. i have Eichmann toppers that may or may not work...cannot say ive noticed any difference tbh but they cost me little and look good and are often a talking point thus do no harm. I also have the Densen cd magic disc which many laugh off as a load of crap. ..hey they may be right but i believe it works, for me anyways. I doesnt bother me if folk laugh or say i am wrong. whether it is actual or percieved only by me it is what I hear that counts. But folk have the right to laugh and disagree if they wish. in fact i prefer they do!

[cloth-ears]

Bob you make some good points but I think the thread should stick to the contents of Paul's opening post rather than get derailed into kettle leads or bi-wiring and so forth.

Point taken, I'll get me coat................:)

[mad-moon]

I use the Densen DeMagic disc and also the system tune up disc..they both work very well...I just set them away and leave the hifi cave..and shut the door...


There are many products with the "foo" designation and most will deserve that description for "most" people. I have some myself. i have Eichmann toppers that may or may not work...cannot say ive noticed any difference tbh but they cost me little and look good and are often a talking point thus do no harm. I also have the Densen cd magic disc which many laugh off as a load of crap. ..hey they may be right but i believe it works, for me anyways. I doesnt bother me if folk laugh or say i am wrong. whether it is actual or percieved only by me it is what I hear that counts. But folk have the right to laugh and disagree if they wish. in fact i prefer they do!

[rdpx]

There are three classes of joke, those that are funny once, those that are funny every time you hear them and those that never were funny in the fist place..... The above is a class 3 joke. try approaching the world with an open and enquiring mind, then engage brain before engaging mouth.
Get over yourself.

[Joe]

Further tests were done, including some I took part in in ’78 and it appeared that the permeable core of the transformer was responsible, literally sucking up spurious fields and allowing more dynamic and phase coherent signals to get to the speakers.

I doubt very much that it was 'literally sucking up spurious fields'. 'Literally' means 'exactly as stated'; thus it's OK to write 'I was literally on the edge of my seat' but not 'I was literally blown away by the sound'. To have 'literally' sucked up the spurious fields, the transformer would need to have been fitted with a suction device, and the 'spurious fields' would have to have been susceptible to suction.

[Gordon Steadman]

I doubt very much that it was 'literally sucking up spurious fields'. 'Literally' means 'exactly as stated'; thus it's OK to write 'I was literally on the edge of my seat' but not 'I was literally blown away by the sound'. To have 'literally' sucked up the spurious fields, the transformer would need to have been fitted with a suction device, and the 'spurious fields' would have to have been susceptible to suction.

Dictionaries at dawn then:lol:

[Joe]

If an old transformer does the same thing why not just salvage one from a knackered amp instead of buying an expensive product?

A certain Lou Reed album should also do the trick.

[Joe]

Dictionaries at dawn then:lol:

Well, quite.

The problem with subjectivists' write-ups is often their inability to use language precisely, so you're left with a cliche-ridden word-soup of inky blackness and jaw-dropping micro dynamics, with spurious fields being literally sucked up by old trannies whilst SOs, who do not normally comment on such things, are amazed by the transformation wrought by the transformer.

[Puffin]

"Transformeration" I have just invented a word for it!:D

[awkwardbydesign]

Well, quite.

The problem with subjectivists' write-ups is often their inability to use language precisely, so you're left with a cliche-ridden word-soup of inky blackness and jaw-dropping micro dynamics, with spurious fields being literally sucked up by old trannies whilst SOs, who do not normally comment on such things, are amazed by the transformation wrought by the transformer.

So called subjectivists are usually trying to describe what they hear in a language that doesn't have the words for it. Therefore they have to use visual analogies which vary from person to person. So called objectivists are usually trying to describe what they see - numbers, graphs, etc, for which the language has plenty of words. But the sound has to be converted to a visual medium first. And therein lies a problem.

[BTH K10A]

As in Class 3, not sctually funny. A closed mind is a sad thing

You have not answered the question

[Joe]

I for one would be interested in hearing actual reports from those who have used these and what they did and didn't do and thoughts on why they might work.

Regards Neil

But that's part of the problem, really. Unless the person hearing the improvement is also technically knowledgeable, any thoughts on why they might work are likely to be little better than guesswork, based, at best, on a limited understanding of the science behind how things actually work.

Coincidentally or otherwise, technically knowledgeable people tend not to take these sort of things seriously enough in the first place to even give them a try; they would further argue that there's no technical reason why they should work, thus any perceived improvements will have psychological rather than scientific explanations.

Personally, if I tried them and heard an improvement I wouldn't be tempted to provide an explanation that would in all likelihood be good for nothing but a laugh.

[Spectral Morn]

But that's part of the problem, really. Unless the person hearing the improvement is also technically knowledgeable, any thoughts on why they might work are likely to be little better than guesswork, based, at best, on a limited understanding of the science behind how things actually work.

Coincidentally or otherwise, technically knowledgeable people tend not to take these sort of things seriously enough in the first place to even give them a try; they would further argue that there's no technical reason why they should work, thus any perceived improvements will have psychological rather than scientific explanations.

Personally, if I tried them and heard an improvement I wouldn't be tempted to provide an explanation that would in all likelihood be good for nothing but a laugh.

Its a shame there is little middle ground re these things. I value measurement support in reviews and HiFi News and Stereophile have got it about right but subjectivist only reviews are also fine as I want to know how an item sounds and while I find the measurement aspect of these reports interesting especially if the measurements don't match the joy of the listener ultimately its how an item sounds that interests me not how it does or doesn't measure.

But, and its a massive but I do want to know why and how, cables sound different for good and bad, I want to know why putting various items under things on things affect the sound. I have heard these things often enough to know there is reality to them, that it isn't placebo or listener expectation (those words used in threads like this do raise my hackles) which often are bandied about in a rude, dismissive and patronising ways by measurement folks to piss on other folks listening experiences. I have a deep curiosity to be able to square the circle but so far we can't.

Anyway this isn't a subjectivists v objectivist thread so lets not let it drift off topic.



Regards Neil

[Joe]

But, and its a massive but I do want to know why and how, cables sound different for good and bad, I want to know why putting various items under things on things affect the sound. I have heard these things often enough to know there is reality to them, that it isn't placebo or listener expectation (those words used in threads like this do raise my hackles) which often are bandied about in a rude, dismissive and patronising ways by measurement folks to piss on other folks listening experiences. I have a deep curiosity to be able to square the circle but so far we can't.

Therein lies the difference between us. I'm happy to take the improvement (as in the case of speaker cables that have transformed the sound of my system) and not worry about how the improvement arises. I certainly wouldn't take any notice of anyone who said that the improvement was placebo or expectation bias, nor would I argue the toss with them, because my scientific understanding would soon have me floundering.

[The Black Adder]

Like Funkadelic said.... Free your mind and your ass will follow. :)

[struth]

I use the Densen DeMagic disc and also the system tune up disc..they both work very well...I just set them away and leave the hifi cave..and shut the door...

I'm not alone :D

[The Black Adder]

I'm not alone :D

lol.. The Densen is like the Ipcress noise.

"what is your name"
"you have no name"

[mad-moon]

If you can stand staying in the room for the 3 minutes it plays...the sound is not the same every time..especially if you clasp a very sharp nail tightly in your hand..till it bleeds
lol.. The Densen is like the Ipcress noise.

"what is your name"
"you have no name"

[cloth-ears]

I think I’m being told off for using the word placebo. It’s not a rude or derogatory word. It’s simply a word to describe an effect that cannot otherwise be explained through rational channels. I can assure you that I’m not laughing at anyone. People are entitled to their opinion. As a scientist I just demand a higher level of proof.

Carrying out an experiment on oneself is often ineffectual. More reliable results can only be achieved if a third party is involved. The acid test is of course blind testing. If an item works then a person should for example be able to listen to a piece of familiar music whilst the effect was being applied at random times by said third party. If it works then the listener would be expected to say when the effect was being applied to a level of accuracy that excludes the possibility of random probability.

[Oldpinkman]

My this is an interesting thread. I have a few observations


Paul said that the effect was discovered by someone accidentally placing an old traffo on an amp case. And it was measurable. So the dedicated products might be 'optimised' but testing with an old traffo should still work to a degree.

Does the transformer have to be out of the case or can you just place one amp on top of another?

Paul did say that. But his explanation did not support that. A measurement was taken. There was no evidence of a causal effect between the measured phenomena and the transformer performance or any other aspect of the "output". My radio "detects" the signal from far off transmitters - and I can produce a measurement of that. It doesn't mean my measuring device is changing the transmitter.


As a scientist I can say ...

I have said on many past threads that a competently built amplifier can’t see the power supply. The only real effect a power supply has on an amplifier is its output impedance. The lower the better. Spurious RF information or even minor changes in supply voltage have little or no effect. Frequency response, dynamic range and so forth are dependent on the amplifiers design. As long as the power supply is adequately built to supply the necessary voltage and current required then all is good. If you own an amplifier that is prone to hum or noise get a better one



I understand that to be true. However, and this relates to the next quote I shall make, the issue with spurious RF and mains (and other) treatments affecting sound quality, maybe doesn't lie with quality of the power - the purity of the juice that drives our music signals, but with interference through capacitive coupling and other causes into the signal itself, ultimately down to imperfect grounding. That's real, measurable and audible (we can argue about the thresholds)


Being a hifi enthusiast..I have done many many try outs of what could be perported to be foo.....I have a meagre inexpensive system..and my pal has a rather expensive very high end system..he fetches me all sorts of gear to try...mains cables..ic's..conditioners etc etc...( in my opionion costing telephone number prices ) My system not being expensive shows a much more discernable difference in sound quality than my pals own..his being very high end and costing many £££'s more..thus the higher the price and much greater the quality gear, is going to show much less improvement already using top quality componenets..than my less expensive system...mains cables, speaker cables, higher end ic's and a very high end costing £2,300 mains conditioner....made an immense difference in my sound quality...this is stating the obvious I know...The Shakti Stones in question, will make little or no difference to multi thousand ££'s amplifiers...I dare say..my multi hundred ££ amplifier would benefit more that the high end gear...Don't knock it..till you try it... I was a none believer till my pal turned up with bags of leads and other gear...

This rings true, and is of great interest to me. I have dipped a tentative toe in the water of investigating this. My "guru" as Marco calls him, is slightly more engaged than usual on this one, since I have linked it to the measurements on the Benchmark amp, and their real relevance. He can show that noise down at the threshold of measurement (-150db) can be measured, and can interact with other parts of the audio spectrum, particularly if measured with a real load. John Siau of Benchmark would argue a SNR of -132db in a power amp can have an audible effect - even if it is beyond the mechanical abilities of speakers . But to keep it simple for the moment, the issue is not "super power" but removal of noise from the signal path. Mains treatments are a somewhat ham-fisted, inefficient, and imperfect way of dealing with the problem, because "somewhat cleaning" the muck which is reflected on the signal is not as effective as ensuring the signal does not pick up any muck at all. Broadly, to keep the post shorter, we are talking good grounding arrangements, in product design and "hook-up" keeping the signal immune from dirt. Your "cheap" systems benefit from "foo" more, because they are poor at rejecting noise, and so changing that noise a bit has an audible effect. A good bit of copper wire applied judiciously might have more effect, at much lower cost.

I want to try and measure this (ok get "my guru" to do it for me). His argument is that you measure noise on the output of the power amp. A power amp with a SNR of -132db under real loads, is a handy tool for this. First up to try are signal isolating transformers I am going to build with a switch to short the ground connections. But the short version is it should be possible to measure "noise" treatments efficacy. The "subjectivist" bit will be how far down do you need to push that noise?

(I am not discounting the possibility Alan, that like me, you have a mind, and it plays a role in our "hearing" in the way Bob described, as well)

But there is an elephant in the room that makes me want to bring the "snake oil" term out of the locker for these Shakti discs. A lot of claims are made. "Endorsed by Abbey Road Studios" (the manufacturer making the claim, not Paul). Well Abbey Road may have them in their studio - my friend who recorded them recently didn't notice them, but that doesn't mean they are not there. But "endorsed"? Abbey Road have a "partner" page on their web site- deafening silence. More to the point, measurements, PROOF, in the form of graphs of Dyno readings of BHP improvements are reported on the site. A 1.8 golf turbo goes from 115BHP to 118BHP. That's a fact. A measurable performance achievement none of us need to argue about.

So why does no Formula 1 race team fit them to their cars? Why are they not fitted in performance cars manufactured by Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini (under licence, after payment of patent royalties). Does anyone else detect the odour of Grimsby harbour?

:scratch:

[walpurgis]

There has been no science here yet. I'm sure any winding (a motor armature for instance? An inductor?) would pick up a measurable electro magnetic field when plonked on top of an amp with a decent transformer.

[cloth-ears]

Richard, you make some very good points indeed. Measurements alone can be misleading unless a direct link can be shown between such measurements and the limits of human hearing. As stated, the only true measure is that of blind testing. Providing the results exclude the possibility of random probability then and only then can the results be taken seriously.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'm a scientist too, I have a couple of degrees and perform clinical research. I like measurements like any scientist but I'm still at pains to explain why my system sounds the way it does. I've made changes to my system which persistently give positive results a good example being changing my speakers position and then I've made changes which give inconsistent results. A good example being using sorbothane under my 1210, somedays I think my system sounds better somedays I think the dynamics have been sucked out. I've given up spending large amounts of money on cables, I've given up spending large amounts on equipment racks,and I don't tube roll. I do however like to try new things and if I "think" I've noticed an improvement I will usually keep the said item and implement it into the system. I like to box swap and try different bits of kit together, sometimes with success and sometimes not :lol:. I say let's not worry or argue and just enjoy our hobby.

[Oldpinkman]

Having trialled the Benchmark amp in my system I have enjoyed the improvement in the sound. I like getting my system to sound better (without endlessly obsessing over it). Some of the reason my system sounds better now may not be down to the amplifier itself, but down to the balanced connection I am using rejecting noise better. So I am interested to see how far I can extend this noise reduction and how much matters -and whether we can measure it, and if so whether measurements can provide a useful tool for system optimisation.

Mostly I want to get my system sounding as good as I can within reason (budget, and domestic harmony).

If I am right its like driving a car after a wedding with a string of cans attached to the bumper, and discovering the noise of the cans spoils the music playing in the car. If I change some of the cans for iron bars, or Gordon's wooden urns, I WILL change the sound of the music in my car and I might like it better. I could change the car for a Bentley - with better sound damping and maybe different mechanical resonance characteristics interacting with the string tension.

Or I could cut the piece of string. The mains treatments I have considered change the cans - or change the car. The obvious route is to cut the string (which is what I think I do) [some mains treatments - like some Balanced Power supplies - could add extra cans to the string. The sound will change. Whether its better or not is I guess subjective]

This is where the analogy starts to break down a bit. Although I go the "cutting the string" route - rather than the mains treatment route maybe there are degrees of success. Perhaps the analogy is 3 strings attached to the bumper, and to date my "proper grounding" solution has cut two of them. The third string maybe only has a couple of ice cream tubs wrapped in foam rather than tin cans on it. Can I hear those? Is it worth cutting that string too? Why can't I see the sting to cut it (see - I told you the analogy broke down)

:cool:

[cloth-ears]

Nurse,,,,,,Oldpinkman is out of bed again..................

[Firebottle]

:rfl:

[Gordon Steadman]

'ere Guv, 'e's mentioning my urns without clearing it with my solicitor. I had no idea that they could be used in connection with hi-fi or music. Wave guide sort of thing possibly? I suppose a tenuous connection could be 'Ashes to Ashes':rolleyes:

Keep taking whatever you are taking Richard.

[Firebottle]

If it were waveguide Gordon it would be at about 6GHz, just a bit beyond even Ronnie's hearing :doh:

:cheers:

[Gordon Steadman]

If it were waveguide Gordon it would be at about 6GHz, just a bit beyond even Ronnie's hearing :doh:

:cheers:

C'mon Alan - NOTHING is beyond Ronnie's hearing. You know why we call her the old bat .............:sofa:.............sorry dear.

[Oldpinkman]

'ere Guv, 'e's mentioning my urns without clearing it with my solicitor. I had no idea that they could be used in connection with hi-fi or music. Wave guide sort of thing possibly? I suppose a tenuous connection could be 'Ashes to Ashes':rolleyes:

Keep taking whatever you are taking Richard.

F*** me . You're right mate. I've just put one of them over the transformer in my amp and its stunning. Get The Absolute Sound to review it. I reckon Yew is the material to go with for mid range clarity;)

[The Black Adder]

So why does no Formula 1 race team fit them to their cars? Why are they not fitted in performance cars manufactured by Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini (under licence, after payment of patent royalties). Does anyone else detect the odour of Grimsby harbour?

:scratch:

They might fit them, but who would tell you? Anyway, weight is more important in F1 as it has a bigger impact across more of the performance curve and they squeeze every little bit out of everything to improve the power to weight ratio. That is where the performance gains are, not in bricks.

[YNWaN]

If you move an inductor close to a metal plate (ferrous or nonferrous) it can clearly be measured that it alters the value of the inductor - perhaps this s relevant, perhaps not.

[The Black Adder]

Here is someone using one on his fuse board... or Breaker Box if your american.

http://www.soundstage.com/ssupdate/20090309.htm

[Gordon Steadman]

Here is someone using one on his fuse board... or Breaker Box if your american.

http://www.soundstage.com/ssupdate/20090309.htm

That won't load for me. maybe it's been 'inducted' into the American Hall of Flame.

[walpurgis]

Here is someone using one on his fuse board... or Breaker Box if your american.

http://www.soundstage.com/ssupdate/20090309.htm

Absurd?

[YNWaN]

Yep, that is ridiculous; as is the idea that car performance could be increased by putting one near the engine management box

[Wakefield Turntables]

What would happen if I placed one near my Gentlemans sausage?

[walpurgis]

As little as may happen if you put it anywhere else.

[Oldpinkman]

They might fit them, but who would tell you? Anyway, weight is more important in F1 as it has a bigger impact across more of the performance curve and they squeeze every little bit out of everything to improve the power to weight ratio. That is where the performance gains are, not in bricks.

You're pulling my leg aren't you? Power to weight applies everywhere. If the additional power they develop is exceeded by their weight then they are pointless in the golf too.

If they were used in F1 who would tell us? The people who tell us abbey Road and pink Floyd use them. Shakti would. Like they would make F1teams aware of them.

There is an elephant in the room

[Wakefield Turntables]

There is an elephant in the room

Jeremy Clarkson?

[Joe]

There is an elephant in the room

Watch out it doesn't get too near your amp; it might suck out all the dynamics.

[Gordon Steadman]

Watch out it doesn't get too near your amp; it might suck out all the dynamics.


Or maybe squash and flatten 'em.

[The Black Adder]

You're pulling my leg aren't you?

No... I'm not. Weight IS very important in F1 - it's a huge competition/battle to find and develop different materials for components. A quick release unit for the steering column can cost up to £500,000 and it's small I can tell you as I know a manufacturer who makes them.

They know more than we do about gains in performance than chavvie Golf drivers put it that way.

Regarding the fuse board. From a purely spectators position, it looks highly unlikely that it would make any difference but I'm no electronics wizard. I wonder who gave him that idea....oooh!, the manufacturer of the Shakti bricks... lol - I rest my case.

Putting them on top of audio PSU's and circuits... that is still open for debate/experience.

[Oldpinkman]

Jo

I appreciate that. My point is the claimed power increase would justify the weight. An F1 car in 2006 had a power to weight ratio of 1250bhp / 1000kg or 1.25BHP/Kg. So devices weighing about 1/2Kg combined and adding 3BHP would be a no-brainer. But the device added 3BHP (allegedly) in 112 or 2.7% power. If that level of power gain is possible then an F1 car - which under the latest formula produce about 1000BHP you would be adding 27BHP for half a kilo.

Or Rally teams. Or performance car manufacturers. The odour of Grimsby harbour hasn't gone away

[The Black Adder]

lol.. I agree with the odour. And with the fuse box application it certainly doesn't back-up it's status.

What I'm driving at (excuse the pun) is that manufacturers will know of any material or products like the Shakti and would be able to either make something similar themselves and improve on it seeing as they have oodles of cash for R&D. They will also know other ways of squeezing out performance that would probably negate said materials or gadgets. Those boffins in F1 know stuff that they won't release.

I've been reading the 6Moons review of the Shakti's... it gets a good review there too. But out of all of the reviews online there isn't one that really stands out and there aren't many reviews to boot, so would that suggest that they aren't 'that good'. The only quote that everyone keeps quoting back to is regarding Abbey Road.

So, what I'd like to know is... is this true? Do they 'still' use them, in which way or application and does the studio rate them? - I endevour to find out.

[walpurgis]

I think you stand more chance of seeing an F1 car on the moon, than one fitted with Shakti stones. Just my enormously skeptical opinion, mind you.

If anybody associated with F1 reads this thread, I'd imagine they'll be having a good laugh.

[The Black Adder]

lol... too right.

[DSJR]

Just buy a load of clip-on/clip-off cable ferrites. same kind of potential benefits sonically and very cheap...

[Marco]

JThe odour of Grimsby harbour hasn't gone away

Don't understand the reference. Educate me, please :)

Marco.

[awkwardbydesign]

Don't understand the reference. Educate me, please :)

Marco.

Fishy?

[Marco]

Fishy what? And what's that got to do with F1? :scratch:

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Marco

I think it smells fishy that Shakti's marketing web site states that in addition to wonderful hifi benefits, they also increase the power output of a golf from 112BHP to 115BHP as measured on a dyno. I find it incredible that they haven't been able to interest an F1 race team in 1.6% BHP increase which would be about 30BHP on an F1 car. If it worked, every race team would use it (way down below F1)

I have a couple of big yellow magnets on a shelf which were supposed to improve fuel consumption. Believe me, if you drive a Discovery, as I do again now (as of last week) you'll try anything for a bit better MPG. Zip, null, nada nothing. If they work - serious motor businesses interested in trophies and money would be all over them like a rash ;)

[Marco]

Ah, I see. I thought the 'Grimsby harbour' reference had some relevance other than to fish [peculiar to F1]! No worries, as you were :)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

I thought I caught a whiff of something more reptilian :).

[Marco]

Aye, that was your armpits! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

Ah, I see. I thought the 'Grimsby harbour' reference had some relevance other than to fish [peculiar to F1]! No worries, as you were :)

Marco.

I'll have a pint of what you've been on this afternoon :cool:

[Reffc]

Marco

I think it smells fishy that Shakti's marketing web site states that in addition to wonderful hifi benefits, they also increase the power output of a golf from 112BHP to 115BHP as measured on a dyno. I find it incredible that they haven't been able to interest an F1 race team in 1.6% BHP increase which would be about 30BHP on an F1 car. If it worked, every race team would use it (way down below F1)

I have a couple of big yellow magnets on a shelf which were supposed to improve fuel consumption. Believe me, if you drive a Discovery, as I do again now (as of last week) you'll try anything for a bit better MPG. Zip, null, nada nothing. If they work - serious motor businesses interested in trophies and money would be all over them like a rash ;)

As someone who understands engines and engine tuning, I would respectfully say to any suggestion that these stones can boost power...ABSOLUTE COBBLERS! How the hell can sitting one of these things above an ECU precisely alter fuelling and timing to fine tune or lift performance (hint: It can't). I have kept out of the debate this far, but such suggestions, frankly, are utterly laughable!

[walpurgis]

Yup! :thumbsup:

[Marco]

I'll have a pint of what you've been on this afternoon :cool:

Lol! I just didn't automatically equate Grimsby harbour with fish, in the context of the discussion! :D

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

Lol! I just didn't automatically equate Grimsby harbour with fish, in the context of the discussion! :D

Marco.

I thought you were just a touch slow on the uptake :eyebrows:
Still, you got there in the end :cool:

[Marco]

'Tis what can happen when you're skimming posts (whilst entertaining/talking to visiting friends in the same room) and not focussing properly on what you're reading! ;)

Marco.

[Anthony K]

Another thing which is most important but hardly addressed is the drop off in hearing we all suffer with age.
By the time we hit our sixties unless very lucky our ears are sadly no where near as good as our 20's 30's or 40's

[maxon]

Another thing which is most important but hardly addressed is the drop off in hearing we all suffer with age.
By the time we hit our sixties unless very lucky our ears are sadly no where near as good as our 20's 30's or 40's

Pardon.....

[CageyH]

Lol! I just didn't automatically equate Grimsby harbour with fish, in the context of the discussion! :D

Marco.

Maybe a Shakti stone on top of your bonce would have a beneficial effect. :lol:

[The Black Adder]

All in all, being the devils advocate, it's strange that Abbey Road and the Pink Floyd studio are said to use them. Or are the reviews simply extrapolating on a tenuous link to said studios? You don't go bouncing names like that around if the claims are not true unless you want a law suit on your hands.

[Joe]

All in all, being the devils advocate, it's strange that Abbey Road and the Pink Floyd studio are said to use them. Or are the reviews simply extrapolating on a tenuous link to said studios? You don't go
bouncing names like that around if the claims are not true unless you want a law suit on your hands.

I guess they just sent them some free samples.

Many years ago, my job involved looking around the computer centres of British universities. At one such university, taking up a fair bit of space, was a large 'mainframe' computer made by a company which had best remain nameless. I noticed it wasn't plugged in, and asked the bloke who was showing me round whether it was being repaired. 'Actually' he replied 'it's never been used. They donated it to us a couple of years ago, but we didn't really need it at the time and now it's obsolete'. But if the company had said in its advertising 'Our computers are used by the University of X', I doubt the university would have complained.

[Reffc]

All in all, being the devils advocate, it's strange that Abbey Road and the Pink Floyd studio are said to use them. Or are the reviews simply extrapolating on a tenuous link to said studios? You don't go bouncing names like that around if the claims are not true unless you want a law suit on your hands.

As above...they probably were sent samples. I can't see any studio spending money on unproven claims and grasping at straws to somehow improve the mastering and recording process. I think that would be a hell of an insult to some of the recording engineers. Besides, even if they were used, that's proof of nothing except that they used them. The whole way their marketing claims are written panders purely to the subjective with some meaningless phrases like "liquidity....inter transient silence" WTF? The claim on the home page about improving 0-60 times is unproven garbage, as removing RFI etc from ECU modules (which are usually pretty effectively screened anyway) has zip to do with fuelling and power delivery. It smacks of typical snake oil salesmanship. Just measuring an engine's output on two consecutive days of varying temperature will change its output due to air density changes, so I'm surprised they haven't tried bottling air in a Thermos flask and marketing that as "engine performance enhancer"!

[Marco]

Maybe a Shakti stone on top of your bonce would have a beneficial effect. :lol:

Ha - you can't help what isn't there in the first place! :D

Marco.

[Joe]

'Tis what can happen when you're skimming posts (whilst entertaining/talking to visiting friends in the same room) and not focussing properly on what you're reading! ;)

Marco.

But .... isn't that frightfully rude?

[Marco]

Nah, he's a good mate and also a moderator of this forum, so knows the score! ;)

Also, the reality is, if I don't answer PMs, posts and emails everyday, they just build up to a point that's ridiculous and unmanageable. I can type and talk ok [without even looking at the keyboard], but obviously not always digest properly what folk have written! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Joe]

Nah, he's a good mate and also a moderator of this forum, so knows the score! ;)

Also, the reality is, if I don't answer PMs, posts and emails everyday, they just build up to a point that's ridiculous and unmanageable. I can type and talk ok, but obviously not always digest properly what folk have written! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ah, emails. Back when I used to work I'd get hundreds of the buggers every day; the vast majority were irrelevant but still had to be read through to be on the safe side. I had a colleague who couldn't 'switch off'; even on holiday she'd be checking and responding to work-related emails at stupid o'clock. In the end, her Blackberry was confiscated to save her (and everyone else's) sanity.

[Marco]

Yeah, I know, and agree. Trouble is, running this place, all you'd be doing is delaying the inevitable and making the task next to impossible.

If I go out for the whole day, it's not uncommon for me to return to about 60 emails [the majority AoS related] and 20-30 PMs, so you can imagine what it'd be like if I ignored that during the duration of friends visiting in the summer months, which can sometimes run into many weeks! :eek:

Marco.

[NRG]

....Just measuring an engine's output on two consecutive days of varying temperature will change its output due to air density changes, so I'm surprised they haven't tried bottling air in a Thermos flask and marketing that as "engine performance enhancer"!

Yup, in fact back to back dyno runs can vary by more than 3bhp and can be inside the dyno tolerance or variability of the unit itself...they are not that precise.

[The Black Adder]

A cold day can increase performance by 3-5bhp too! - But the chances of you noticing it is extremely small in a car in stock form.

So, in regards to improvements, putting one of these bricks on the fuse board seems like a joke, placing them on car ECU sounds equally as unbelievable. How about placing them on amp PSU's or over circuitry? Does that have legs?

[YNWaN]

I see that on the Shakti website they link to the manufacturer Audio-Magic http://www.audio-magic.com/Prod-PEA.html. I've linked to one of their products that particularly caught my attention, the PEA:


The theory behind the P.E.A.'s is to align the way the electrons are spinning. Electrons will either spin up or spin down: this is called "spintronics". When you have billions of electrons spinning every which way this creates mass chaos in and around components, in the air, etc. By aligning the electrons, everything works a lot more efficiently and eliminates noise. What this means to your listening experience is a more realistic and musical presentation with tighter and more dynamic bass, high's that are delicate and more natural, and midrange to die for. It will take your system to a whole different level. And the beauty is the P.E.A.'s is that they will work for everyone, I simply won't believe anyone who says they can't hear it!

'Aligning the spinning electrons' :) - now I've read everything!

They also make some large mains power 'conditioner' things in transparent acrylic cases. I believe one was being used in the TAD room at the recent Cranage show!

[Oldpinkman]

A cold day can increase performance by 3-5bhp too! - But the chances of you noticing it is extremely small in a car in stock form.

So, in regards to improvements, putting one of these bricks on the fuse board seems like a joke, placing them on car ECU sounds equally as unbelievable. How about placing them on amp PSU's or over circuitry? Does that have legs?

I think the short answer would be "No". But there would have to be an "it depends".

The short answer is based on the principal that if you are prepared to tell fairy stories in one set of claims, you are prepared to tell them elsewhere so the mumbo jumbo claims about what they are and how they work in audio will be just that.
"It depends" - It's not clear what they are. Bits of fake circuit will be doing nothing. Anything with magnetic shielding properties might do something. The transformers in a traditonal linear power supply kick out a lot of stray magnetic fields which add noise to audio circuits. Shielding them would cut noise. Note - it is not going to change the "coupling" or change the way that electricity runs the power supply - but there could be the tiniest coincidental shielding effect.

I revert to my original short answer though - "No"

[Oldpinkman]

'Aligning the spinning electrons' :) - now I've read everything!



No you haven't! Irritatingly I can't find the link to it now, but somewhere over the weekend I read about a bit of foo that improved the acoustic coupling in the listening room via "elongated air molecules"

You have to love 'em the little scallywags :)

[walpurgis]

Whilst discussing Shakti Stones, you may wish to give an opinion on these:

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=4595&customer_id=PAA1775024909632WWEVVGNLSNHUBRSY

http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html

[Ali Tait]

I see that on the Shakti website they link to the manufacturer Audio-Magic http://www.audio-magic.com/Prod-PEA.html. I've linked to one of their products that particularly caught my attention, the PEA:



'Aligning the spinning electrons' :) - now I've read everything!

They also make some large mains power 'conditioner' things in transparent acrylic cases. I believe one was being used in the TAD room at the recent Cranage show!

LOL, brilliant!

Best laugh in ages..

[Gordon Steadman]

Ronnie has asked me not to experiment with any of these. She is worried about the effects of long air molecules and changing the spin of electrons.

She may have a point, do these jokers realise the damage they may be doing to the fabric of the universe?:eek:

[struth]

angular momentum:eyebrows:

[walpurgis]

And did you know that if you turn the lights on and a bulb is missing, the electrickery leaks out all over the place. :D

[Gordon Steadman]

I wonder why these guys don't share the science with CERN. It would save all that pesky accelerating stuff up to the speed of light. Save a fortune in electrickery bills too.

[walpurgis]

I wonder why these guys don't share the science with CERN. It would save all that pesky accelerating stuff up to the speed of light. Save a fortune in electrickery bills too.

Yes and what with all the study of perpetual motion machines that almost work, I reckon a couple of Shakti Stones bunged on top could tip the balance and the world's energy will be free thereon.

[walpurgis]

What would happen if you put Shakti Stones on top of a superconducting loop? Would there be a runaway reaction, tearing a hole in the fabric of the continuum and creating an event horizon that sucks the world into oblivion?

[Gordon Steadman]

I am deeply shocked that the moderators are joining in to mock something on a thread that was complaining about the mockery going on in a thread on the same subject.

I think I will start another thread complaining about this:eyebrows:

[Ali Tait]

:lol:

[struth]

I am deeply shocked that the moderators are joining in to mock something on a thread that was complaining about the mockery going on in a thread on the same subject.

I think I will start another thread complaining about this:eyebrows:

Moderator! singular:( he will be up in front of the rector tomorrow:eyebrows:

[Gordon Steadman]

angular momentum:eyebrows:
.
Is this person a moderator or not?

I think it may have to be the rectum......er rector for you too!!

[Firebottle]

Red hot Shakti Stones....ahh, I meant pokers :eek:

Would a red hot Shakti Stone improve its efficacy?

:scratch:

[Gordon Steadman]

Red hot Shakti Stones....ahh, I meant pokers :eek:

Would a red hot Shakti Stone improve its efficacy?

:scratch:


Depends where it is inserted...in the system.

[Barry]

I am deeply shocked that the moderators are joining in to mock something on a thread that was complaining about the mockery going on in a thread on the same subject.

I think I will start another thread complaining about this:eyebrows:

Careful you could set up a resonant loop with unpredictable repercussions!

[Gordon Steadman]

Careful you could set up a resonant loop with unpredictable repercussions!

:eek:

Sounds horrible!

[The Black Adder]

Whilst discussing Shakti Stones, you may wish to give an opinion on these:

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=4595&customer_id=PAA1775024909632WWEVVGNLSNHUBRSY

http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html

Mr. Kessler seems to like em though and some say you don't mess with the Kess.



By Ken Kessler


"To recap, SHAKTI Electromagnetic Stabilizers are placed on top of transformers, speakers, etc. like a VPI brick or Flux Dumper. Internal circuitry—yup, passive internal components—is supposed to work all sorts of groovy magic; and I’ve witnessed convincing demonstrations on speakers and valve amps too many times to dismiss them. (Confession: I use the Stones all the time, I just don’t boast about it). What doesn’t need sorting are the On-Lines themselves, which clean up the sound in a manner reminiscent of Simba clamps."



But the black body ones (to me) sounds even more far-out, man....

http://www.lessloss.com/images/blackbody/black/gallery/00-LessLoss-Blackbody-1000px.jpg

Dark, mysterious, intriguing, sexy even...

but that's enough about me. :) I take it these run along the same kind of 'technology' as the Shakti's... this one does look better, it has a better website with lots of diagrams to show me how it works but even though I've read it I still can't bring myself to believe it.

[Anthony K]

I actually remember the article in the nineties , I believe it was in an edition of Sound on Sound, they were not samples as they had about 30 of them. On amps , monitors , midi boxes , the desk , and all outboard effect units. They even had them strapped to send and return cables as well as the power.

[walpurgis]

It's surprising how people can be influenced by fanciful ideas.

[struth]

.
Is this person a moderator or not?

I think it may have to be the rectum......er rector for you too!!

Angular Momentum is the correct terminology for Spinning Electrons :eyebrows:

[YNWaN]

There's a rather entertaining 6 Loons review of the Audio Magic mains things where the reviewer writes that he had presumed the designer learnt his electrical skills in the military but he had actually been a fridge repair technician :).

[rdpx]

There's a rather entertaining 6 Loons review of the Audio Magic mains things where the reviewer writes that he had presumed the designer learnt his electrical skills in the military but he had actually been a fridge repair technician :).

He was a fridge repair technician for the military?

[Ali Tait]

They need to keep their beer cold just like everyone else.. :-)