Sintered cone bearing for 401 (what, more bearings?)

[FR Drew]

More than 3 years back (so no longer findable on my ebay history) I purchased an aftermarket bearing upgrade for my 401.

This was in the form of a sintered brass or bronze cylinder with the top machined to a conical point that replaced the original bearing case.

In recent searching of the web I can find no mention of who it was who produced them, or any reviews.

For my part, I feel that it significantly tightened up the bottom end to have a solid base for the spindle to ride on, certainly increased the spin down time over the stock bearing and far more eddy current brake is required, so drag is obviously a lot lower...

I'm now concerned about potential spindle damage having seen the various reports of the base of the spindle being damaged by a range of aftermarket systems. I have yet to pull the old girl open to have a look at the base of the spindle. Aside from a nagging concern I have nothing to actually complain about sound wise.

Can anyone here recall who it was who made these bearings or offer any insight?

Cheers,

Drew

[Andy831]

The one that springs to mind is the Kokomo bearing, which following reports of "wear" to the spindle has now been updated to a Mk 2 version.

http://www.analogtubeaudio.de/128-1-garrard-301-401-tweaks.html

I have not tried this so cannot comment on whether it works or not.

There was another version on Ebay that used a soft metal ball bearing (Rather than the Kokomo Ceramic bearing, ....or was it the other way round I can`t remember now)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Kokomo is now upto v3 if I'm correct and most people still advise against using it. The best thing to do if your on a budget is to send it to martin bastin. The other after market bearings are a bit of an unknown quantity and finding examples of "reviewed" after market bearings is very difficult, purchase at your peril.

[Ammonite Audio]

Is it this one?

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/BqKbuQmkKGrHqMOKj8EuhRtcZvhBLulOw1svQ_12.jpg

If so, the phosphor bronze is softer than the spindle, so there's no likelihood of the sort of damage mentioned with ceramic bearings.

[Andy831]

Is it this one?

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/BqKbuQmkKGrHqMOKj8EuhRtcZvhBLulOw1svQ_12.jpg

If so, the phosphor bronze is softer than the spindle, so there's no likelihood of the sort of damage mentioned with ceramic bearings.

That looks like the Ebay one I had in mind.

[FR Drew]

Nope, that one isn't like mine. Mine has no ball, the black cylinder on yours, in mine is sintered bronze and comes to a pint at the height of the ball...

[Ammonite Audio]

That picture came from a Garrard upgrade thread on HiFi Wigwam

[PaulStewart]

I spoke very recently to Brian Mortimer, the man who was in charge of 401 production when chief engineer at Garrard in Swindon and he has such a laugh at people who try to "Improve" on the 401 bearing. As he said to me with the correct oil as developed by ESSO for Garrard an still available from Loricraft, there is no metal to metal contact, just an oil film. The only people Brian recvomends to do work on Garrard bearings is Loricraft and he rates the 501 bearing (same design, tighter tolerances), as the only upgrade.

[Reffc]

I spoke very recently to Brian Mortimer, the man who was in charge of 401 production when chief engineer at Garrard in Swindon and he has such a laugh at people who try to "Improve" on the 401 bearing. As he said to me with the correct oil as developed by ESSO for Garrard an still available from Loricraft, there is no metal to metal contact, just an oil film. The only people Brian recvomends to do work on Garrard bearings is Loricraft and he rates the 501 bearing (same design, tighter tolerances), as the only upgrade.

Spot - on advice. Most after market bearings can (and most do) harm the spindle (try getting a replacement!). I tried one for a short while, checked the spindle and found deposits of the "soft" phosphor-bronze bearing had ground their way into the base of the spindle (in just a few months playing time) so reverted to the standard thrust bearing and used the proper oil, and have forgotton about it now and just use the thing with an occasional check and top up of oil if required. Garrard (Brian) knew what they were doing so I would suggest (as above) that "upgrades" to the bearing are not required.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I think the general consensus of opinion is to leave well alone. ;)

[A.Grail]

Garrard were very well versed in the use of ball bearings (They used them in all but the first hammertone motors) and at the base of the spindle in the cheaper 4HF turntable. Indeed ball bearings are considerably cheaper to produce and implement in comparison to either the 301 or the 401 thrust bearing design. In the case of the flat 301 thrust bearing there is: sintered bronze, brass outer and Delrin type inner. This design is self centering, damped and allows for a certain amount of friction which does slow spin down time but has some interesting effects on overall speed stability. The introduction of STEREO led to the domed sintered bronze thrust bearings of the 401 (Better than the 301 bearing) which again were significantly more costly to produce than a simple captive ball bearing a the base of the spindle (Think Thorens 124 or again Garrards contemporary offering the 4HF) Interestingly the EMT 930 utilizes a comparatively large ball bearing which offers the base of the considerably larger spindle a 'Dome' similar in contact size to the 401 and very similar to the Shindo Garrard bearing. We have stripped and rebuilt countless 'upgraded bearings' before we do we always listen to them (A cheap way to do this is an engineers stethoscope contacting the base of the spindle housing) the findings from this and the visible damage to the base of virtually all the spindles has led to the conclusion small ball bearings are not the way to go. I completely agree the Garrard engineers knew what they were doing. Personally I only prefer the Shindo bearing over the 501 bearing for it's mass which effects its vibrational frequency (Both have excellent tolerances and got the job done right, the shindo bearing benefits from bracing on the underside due to it's weight in combination with the Shindo platter which pushes the cast 301 chassis to it's limit IMHO)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Matt, would you say that it's better to use a 401 bearing on a 301 if you cant afford or can't be bothered with after market bearings?

I don't trust after market bearings and would probably never be able to source a Shindo bearing.

Andy

[DSJR]

I spoke very recently to Brian Mortimer, the man who was in charge of 401 production when chief engineer at Garrard in Swindon and he has such a laugh at people who try to "Improve" on the 401 bearing. As he said to me with the correct oil as developed by ESSO for Garrard an still available from Loricraft, there is no metal to metal contact, just an oil film. The only people Brian recvomends to do work on Garrard bearings is Loricraft and he rates the 501 bearing (same design, tighter tolerances), as the only upgrade.

I do wish people would follow this advice, but Loricraft are expensive and third parties not aware of the proper design and why it was done that way, try to market 'me too' so-called upgrades.

I think it's in the library here, but the 301 and 401 were designed to run 24/7 for many years. There's plenty of oil in the bronze bearing 'cup' I remember and light downward pressure would bring a supply to the running surface, hence the 'oil film' comment above.

Before my time on earth is done, I MUST try to get my old pal to dig around for the mint 401 I gave to him for safe keeping. He has thousands of quids worth of stuff and I think it's been buried under a pile of Hifi boxes and forgotten :(

[sq225917]

Anyone telling you there's no metal to metal contact at the bottom of a turntable bearing, just oil film contact is wrong, unless it's a pressurized bearing. You'd need an incredibly light platter and wide flat bearing base for this to be the case.

Very little contact, maybe in some cases, but none, not in this universe. Just try an electrical continuity test between spindle and bearing pad if the pad isn't on a plastic insert.

[A.Grail]

Matt, would you say that it's better to use a 401 bearing on a 301 if you cant afford or can't be bothered with after market bearings?

I don't trust after market bearings and would probably never be able to source a Shindo bearing.

Andy

The 401 domed trust bearing will fit inside the housing with a little shave (The black plastic cup would need to be filled down on the plastic base)

[A.Grail]

Anyone telling you there's no metal to metal contact at the bottom of a turntable bearing, just oil film contact is wrong, unless it's a pressurized bearing. You'd need an incredibly light platter and wide flat bearing base for this to be the case.

Very little contact, maybe in some cases, but none, not in this universe. Just try an electrical continuity test between spindle and bearing pad if the pad isn't on a plastic insert.

True, there is contact and observable wear to both the 301 and 401 thrust pads.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The 401 domed trust bearing will fit inside the housing with a little shave (The black plastic cup would need to be filled down on the plastic base)

Thanks for the advice, Matt. I'm going to keep my eyes skimmed for a donor 401 or even a bearing on ebay.

[Clive]

If you don't trust Garrard bearing upgrades try the likes of NWA bearing total replacements. No risk and significantly better than the original.

[Wakefield Turntables]

If you don't trust Garrard bearing upgrades try the likes of NWA bearing total replacements. No risk and significantly better than the original.

Clive, not to sound confrontational, do you have any evidence to back this up? I'd love to see any forum threads, reviews etc. it's not that I don't trust after market bearing upgrades (I have the mike new bearing in my techie) it's more the fact I don't want to waste money on unproven products. The MN bearing has numerous glowing reports whilst 95% of all after market garrard bearing don't have a single review. ;)

[Clive]

Clive, not to sound confrontational, do you have any evidence to back this up? I'd love to see any forum threads, reviews etc. it's not that I don't trust after market bearing upgrades (I have the mike new bearing in my techie) it's more the fact I don't want to waste money on unproven products. The MN bearing has numerous glowing reports whilst 95% of all after market garrard bearing don't have a single review. ;)
I have the NWA bearing in my 301, the review is here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0213/northwest_analog.htm

By no risk what I meant was no risk to the original bearing. Whether you'd like the NWA bearing depends on what you want from a Garrard. It does make the deck sound more modern and in a very good way for my taste. The deck is still sounds very much a Garrard IMO.

[FR Drew]

Hmm, looks like I'm going to be hunting through my boxes of "hifi stuff" from 4 house moves ago to try and find the original bearing seat...